/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-01-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jan 09 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  23. # [01:36] <Hixie> smaug____: (continuing discussion from yesterday about disabling buttons) no script libraries either
  24. # [01:37] <Hixie> smaug____: i just disabled all the addons except firebug and it still happens
  25. # [01:37] <Hixie> smaug____: only in firerfox
  26. # [01:37] <Hixie> smaug____: and it's a whole bunch of different unrelated buttons, too
  27. # [01:37] <Hixie> smaug____: can't seem to work out how to reproduce it though
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  29. # [01:45] <smaug____> Hixie: Haven't heard of any bug reports about disabled buttons
  30. # [01:45] <Hixie> smaug____: yeah me either
  31. # [01:45] <Hixie> it has me baffled
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  33. # [01:47] <zewt> an unusually targetted virus? heh
  34. # [01:48] <Hixie> smaug____: seems like it's probably https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=592665 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=654072
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  38. # [01:53] <smaug____> Well, shift-reload doesn't keep form state
  39. # [01:54] <smaug____> Hixie: and you said shift-reload doesn't help
  40. # [01:54] <smaug____> so it is something new
  41. # [01:54] <smaug____> s/new/else/
  42. # [01:55] <Hixie> i might be mistaken about that. it's hard to say since it's intermittent.
  43. # [01:55] <Hixie> and i only see it some time after i did theload
  44. # [01:55] <zewt> if you're never disabling elements in the first place, 654072 shouldn't be relevant, i think
  45. # [01:56] <Hixie> some buttons get disabled, just not the ones that are getting mysteriously disabled
  46. # [01:56] * Hixie wouldn't consider a button's disabled state to be "form state", btw
  47. # [01:56] <Hixie> i recommend not restoring disabled state :-)
  48. # [01:56] <zewt> that's pretty much verbatim what i just typed out in a comment on that bug :)
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  59. # [02:17] <GPHemsley> annevk: Heh. Just noticed you're on the CC list for the bug 716422 I just filed. :)
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  62. # [02:21] <zewt> gar, firefox console autocomplete is aggravating
  63. # [02:22] <zewt> needs to be tricked into *not* autocompleting when unwanted, heh
  64. # [02:24] * GPHemsley has the same problem with Gmail search. FTW.
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  87. # [03:47] <bencc> how does a websocket server should respond to a CONNECT request?
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  176. # [09:08] <annevk> GPHemsley: not sure what that bug is about :)
  177. # [09:09] <annevk> GPHemsley: ooh, now I remember again
  178. # [09:10] <annevk> mebibytes ftw
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  217. # [11:20] <Ms2ger> People who hadn't noticed it yet may be interested in http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/
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  228. # [11:57] <zcorpan> "create small, clean, orthogonal specs"
  229. # [12:00] <Ms2ger> Clean specs?
  230. # [12:00] <Ms2ger> Let's outsource that to the XHTML2 WG
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  237. # [12:38] <hsivonen> hmm. annevk isn't here.
  238. # [12:39] <hsivonen> it would be nice to make xhr.status say 200 for successful non-HTTP responses unless doing so breaks the Web
  239. # [12:40] <Ms2ger> Yeah, that's what I thought :)
  240. # [12:40] <Ms2ger> Also, Anne's off the grid from Wednesday
  241. # [12:41] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: oh ok. I was hoping to be able to report spec bugs via IRC log.
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  262. # [14:51] <annevk> hsivonen: what does it report now for non-HTTP responses?
  263. # [14:52] <annevk> hsivonen: in general non-HTTP is not really thoroughly considered at the moment
  264. # [14:53] <annevk> hsivonen: my view is mostly that for non-HTTP protocols/schemes we should define how they work in an HTTP context because all APIs we have "assume" HTTP
  265. # [14:53] <hsivonen> annevk: reportedly, IE10 and Chrome say 200 while Opera and Firefox say 0
  266. # [14:53] <annevk> like for disk loads? or are we talking ftp?
  267. # [14:53] <hsivonen> annevk: blob: was the scheme that was tested
  268. # [14:53] <annevk> aah
  269. # [14:54] <annevk> hsivonen: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileAPI/#processingModel
  270. # [14:54] <annevk> blob URLs already follow the model I want people to use
  271. # [14:54] <annevk> as they have been recently added I got that semi-addressed (not entirely pleased with the level of detail on HTTP headers yet)
  272. # [14:54] <hsivonen> annevk: and, yet, Firefox and Opera get blob: wrong
  273. # [14:55] <annevk> there's only so much I can do :)
  274. # [15:00] <hsivonen> annevk: you could add some informative notes to XHR to remind people that non-HTTP protocols should define their mappings to HTTP and give enough information for implementors to fill in the blanks when specs for non-http[s]: schemes fail to do so
  275. # [15:00] <annevk> where would be the best place to put that?
  276. # [15:01] <hsivonen> annevk: in the definition for each affected API
  277. # [15:01] <annevk> hmm
  278. # [15:01] <hsivonen> annevk: the definition of status should talk about 200 and 500
  279. # [15:01] <hsivonen> for example
  280. # [15:02] <hsivonen> and GetResponseHeader should talk about Content-Type
  281. # [15:02] <annevk> so status / statusText/ getResponseHeader / getAllResponseHeaders ?
  282. # [15:02] <annevk> well not just Content-Type, all headers are important
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  287. # [15:05] <annevk> but this is also relevant to e.g. HTML
  288. # [15:05] <annevk> hmm
  289. # [15:09] <hsivonen> annevk: adding notes makes it a lot more likely that this gets implemented correctly
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  291. # [15:10] <annevk> yeah I guess
  292. # [15:10] <annevk> it's just that I've tried to avoid redundancy in similar situations
  293. # [15:13] <bencc> does a websocket server need to handle HTTP CONNECT requests
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  296. # [15:13] <bencc> or only a proxy needs to handle it if there is one?
  297. # [15:15] <annevk> doesn't the spec say?
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  300. # [15:19] <bencc> annevk: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6455#section-4.1
  301. # [15:19] <bencc> it talks about the CONNECT request but I don't understand who should respond to it and how
  302. # [15:19] <zewt> _holy hell_ /that spec/
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  304. # [15:20] <zewt> what the hell are they thinking?
  305. # [15:20] <bencc> ?
  306. # [15:20] * Quits: virtuelv (virtuelv__@nat/opera/x-kjolkedauzsazefr) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  307. # [15:20] <zewt> To _Establish a WebSocket Connection_
  308. # [15:20] <zewt> A client will need to
  309. # [15:20] <zewt> supply a /host/, /port/, /resource name/, and a /secure/ flag
  310. # [15:20] <bencc> zewt: I don't understand
  311. # [15:21] <zewt> ... someone might want to let them know that you can actually underline and italic with HTML
  312. # [15:21] * Quits: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p4FCF6B47.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  313. # [15:22] <Philip`> zewt: Why is that relevant, when they're not writing HTML?
  314. # [15:22] * Joins: davidb_ (~davidb@66.207.208.98)
  315. # [15:22] <zewt> that's html.
  316. # [15:22] <zewt> terrible html, to be sure
  317. # [15:22] <Philip`> It's plain text auto-converted to HTML
  318. # [15:23] <zewt> i don't care about the authoring path (and I doubt anyone but the editor does)
  319. # [15:24] <zewt> (and surely they could convert those)
  320. # [15:24] <Philip`> I presume "let them know" was referring to the editor, who cares that they're only able to write plain text
  321. # [15:24] * Joins: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p4FCF6B47.dip.t-dialin.net)
  322. # [15:25] <bencc> what about the proxy? :)
  323. # [15:25] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@101.108.109.16)
  324. # [15:25] <Philip`> (as opposed to alerting the IETF people who make the decision to stick with plain text as the canonical spec format)
  325. # [15:27] <annevk> zewt: dude, all IETF specs are plain text
  326. # [15:27] <annevk> zewt: tools.ietf.org just provides a nicer view of them, the "actual" version is http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6455.txt
  327. # [15:27] <zewt> they already have plenty of transforms; it'd pretty much be s/_(.?*)_/<u>\1</u>/g
  328. # [15:28] <zewt> (eg. section numbers become links)
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  330. # [15:28] <zewt> (is that the right syntax for non-greedy matching? i always forget, since I don't use it much)
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  332. # [15:29] <annevk> bencc: this is what the client sends: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6455#section-1.3
  333. # [15:29] <annevk> bencc: so that is what you need to deal with
  334. # [15:30] <annevk> zewt: dunno if that would work for all RFCs
  335. # [15:30] <annevk> zewt: the syntax in the WebSocket spec is not universal
  336. # [15:30] <bencc> annevk: what about this? CONNECT example.com:80 HTTP/1.1
  337. # [15:30] <annevk> bencc: I think that's only for proxies
  338. # [15:30] <zewt> annevk: i'm just surprised that my already more or less zero confidence in the IETF being able to write readable specs managed to drop yet another notch; but I guess I shouldn't be surprised
  339. # [15:31] <annevk> bencc: are you writing client or server software?
  340. # [15:31] <bencc> annevk: server
  341. # [15:31] <bencc> most of the requests works but recently I'm getting CONNECT requests which I don't know how to handle
  342. # [15:31] <bencc> my server directly gets requests with a proxy like haproxy
  343. # [15:31] <bencc> but maybe there is a proxy between the client and my server
  344. # [15:32] <bencc> I'm using port 8080
  345. # [15:32] <Philip`> zewt: .*?
  346. # [15:33] <Philip`> zewt: That'd be terrible when people write underscore_separated_names in their spec text
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  348. # [15:33] <annevk> bencc: from my brief reading that sounds like a problem that's not your fault
  349. # [15:34] <zewt> it'd need adjustment for separators, etc
  350. # [15:34] <Philip`> At least if auto-linking makes a mistake, the reader can just ignore the link and it won't affect the interpretation of the text
  351. # [15:34] <Philip`> Removing _s and /s would be much more risky
  352. # [15:34] <zewt> (not going to try since I'm not actually interested in spending lots of time trying to convince the IETF to do something)
  353. # [15:34] <bencc> annevk: what do you mean and how should I handle it?
  354. # [15:35] <annevk> bencc: i.e. you should just conform to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6455#section-4.2.1 and CONNECT does not so you should fail the request
  355. # [15:35] <Velmont> You don't have to kill the _'s either. can just do <u>_text_</u> and <em>/text</em> it helps with reading.
  356. # [15:35] * Philip` thinks that would make it even uglier
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  358. # [15:36] <bencc> annevk: what about 4.1 3?
  359. # [15:36] <bencc> annevk: "_Proxy Usage_: If the client is configured to use a proxy when.."
  360. # [15:37] <zewt> should you just handle CONNECT the same way a regular HTTP server would? (Apache returns 405 Method Not Allowed)
  361. # [15:38] <zewt> (aka I'm Not A Proxy)
  362. # [15:38] <bencc> what can cause a client to send me a CONNECT request with Connection Close header?
  363. # [15:38] <annevk> bencc: that's how clients are supposed to deal with proxies
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  365. # [15:39] <annevk> servers != proxies
  366. # [15:39] <bencc> annevk: the proxy should handle this request without passing it to my server?
  367. # [15:39] <annevk> yes, the proxy is supposed to open a TCP connection to your server and let the client use that to connect to your server
  368. # [15:39] <annevk> as I understand it
  369. # [15:40] <zewt> yep
  370. # [15:40] <bencc> so this is a bug in FF or the proxy server?
  371. # [15:40] <zewt> it's probably something goofier than that; a proxy server that didn't swallow the CONNECT header would be totally unusable
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  373. # [15:41] <zewt> unless FF with proxy+websocket is just broken (that'd be surprising, though)
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  375. # [15:42] <Ms2ger> zewt, I believe that's a remnant from Hixie's HTML->plain text transformation, actually
  376. # [15:44] <annevk> bencc: I suppose it could be either
  377. # [15:44] <zewt> i think the IETF just hates people reading their specs and wants to give them headaches :P
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  379. # [15:45] <annevk> bencc: both browsers and proxies are known to be pretty weird
  380. # [15:46] <zewt> i'm somewhat confused that this spec mentions HTTP proxy details at all
  381. # [15:46] <zewt> rather than ignoring it as a transparent detail at another layer
  382. # [15:46] <annevk> not really sure what the point of that is either
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  384. # [15:47] <annevk> maybe because in this case only the initial connection is HTTP and the rest is not
  385. # [15:47] <annevk> the TLS-only WebSocket design was so much neater
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  389. # [15:50] <hsivonen> does Web Socket work nicely with Apache and mod_jk these days?
  390. # [15:50] <annevk> jk?
  391. # [15:50] <annevk> just kidding?
  392. # [15:51] <hsivonen> annevk: I believe it's short for Jakarta
  393. # [15:51] <zewt> same thing I thought, heh
  394. # [15:51] <hsivonen> annevk: for connecting to a servlet container supposedly more efficiently than by proxying HTTP
  395. # [15:51] * moo-_- is now known as moo^_^
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  397. # [15:54] <annevk> hsivonen: thanks for dealing with the document.write bug btw
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  399. # [15:54] <hsivonen> annevk: you're welcome
  400. # [15:54] <zewt> the "i ignore parts of the spec when i know better" one?
  401. # [15:54] <annevk> hsivonen: it seemed somewhat reasonable to at least consider it
  402. # [15:54] <hsivonen> zewt: that one
  403. # [15:55] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se)
  404. # [15:58] <annevk> AryehGregor_: where does http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/editing/raw-file/tip/editing.html#selections state when the associated range becomes non-null?
  405. # [15:59] * AryehGregor_ is now known as AryehGregor
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  407. # [16:00] <AryehGregor> annevk, 1) addRange(), 2) "The user agent should allow the user to change the selection."
  408. # [16:01] <AryehGregor> The idea of "is initially null" is just that <!doctype html><script>alert(getSelection().rangeCount); alerts 0.
  409. # [16:01] <AryehGregor> This could probably be made clearer.
  410. # [16:01] <AryehGregor> It's supposed to be null until the user actually selects something, or script sets it.
  411. # [16:02] <AryehGregor> Basically, what the selection looks like after user interaction is entirely undefined.
  412. # [16:02] <AryehGregor> Probably at some point it would be good to define it -- e.g., if the user selects something and then that thing gets deleted, or the user clicks somewhere so the selection is cleared, does the range become null again?
  413. # [16:02] <AryehGregor> I'd think so.
  414. # [16:02] <AryehGregor> But it's not specified.
  415. # [16:03] <AryehGregor> . . . Does that answer your question?
  416. # [16:04] <annevk> I'm interested in case 2)
  417. # [16:04] <annevk> I think what was not clear to people is that changing the selection makes a Range object appear
  418. # [16:04] <annevk> so maybe that should be explicit
  419. # [16:05] <AryehGregor> Would you like to file a bug?
  420. # [16:05] <annevk> sure
  421. # [16:05] <AryehGregor> Right now I'm working on transforms stuff. I'll probably return to the editing spec for a while once I'm done with that.
  422. # [16:05] <annevk> k
  423. # [16:05] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15470
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  426. # [16:08] <AryehGregor> Is there a Bugzilla component for CSSOM View, or just CSSOM?
  427. # [16:09] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: ^
  428. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> just for CSSOM
  429. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> I can create another one if you want
  430. # [16:09] <AryehGregor> I've been told CSSOM View currently doesn't have an editor, so . . .
  431. # [16:09] <annevk> I'd first coordinate with the editors
  432. # [16:10] <zcorpan> Nobody, is it OK if we create a bugzilla component?
  433. # [16:11] <annevk> euhm
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  435. # [16:11] <annevk> didn't Glenn Adams sign up for both?
  436. # [16:11] <annevk> and Shane Stephens?
  437. # [16:11] * AryehGregor doesn't know, only knows it still says you're the editor but you said you're not
  438. # [16:11] <AryehGregor> I assume that if no one has even bothered changing the editor in the spec, it's probably not very actively maintained . . .
  439. # [16:12] <annevk> the day I resigned from the CSS WG I was told someone was taking over so I assumed that would be immediate
  440. # [16:12] <annevk> often I assume wrongly in new scenarios
  441. # [16:13] <AryehGregor> Maybe I'll volunteer to edit CSSOM for a while. CSSOM interop is horrifyingly bad.
  442. # [16:13] <zcorpan> maybe they are responsible but haven't made any changes yet so didn't feel inclined to update the "editor" field
  443. # [16:13] <AryehGregor> And it's extremely frustrating sometimes.
  444. # [16:13] <AryehGregor> I had to spend lots of time hacking around it in my editing commands implementation.
  445. # [16:13] <annevk> Glenn explicitly asked me about the editor field weeks ago
  446. # [16:13] <Ms2ger> Enjoy dealing with The WG :)
  447. # [16:14] <AryehGregor> Is the CSSWG a pain to deal with?
  448. # [16:14] <annevk> it wasn't for me
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  451. # [16:15] <AryehGregor> So far I haven't noticed it being a pain either.
  452. # [16:15] <annevk> I meant that in a different way; it seemed most people had different goals
  453. # [16:16] <annevk> to really fix the CSSOM, you have to fix the way the CSS model is defined
  454. # [16:16] <AryehGregor> How so?
  455. # [16:16] <annevk> because it's an API for the model
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  458. # [16:17] <annevk> in theory defining an API is simple, you just say "return this bit from the model"
  459. # [16:17] <AryehGregor> What parts of the model aren't defined adequately?
  460. # [16:18] <annevk> but here you have to define some transformation on the model and return that, while not always being able to usefully reference the model
  461. # [16:18] <annevk> but maybe I was doing it wrong
  462. # [16:18] <AryehGregor> TBH, a lot of the stuff that bugged me was things like style="font-weight: bold" vs. style="font-weight: bold; " or such. That should be fixable without much trouble.
  463. # [16:18] <annevk> well e.g. the box model offset*/client/scroll* attributes
  464. # [16:18] <AryehGregor> Hmm, right.
  465. # [16:19] <annevk> property serialization is indeed something that needs fixing, but also depends on the model
  466. # [16:19] <annevk> e.g. is the model that bold becomes 600, or does it stay bold, etc.
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  468. # [16:19] <annevk> I pointed this out a few times, but it was basically up to me alone to fix the model
  469. # [16:20] <annevk> and then push that through the WG somehow
  470. # [16:20] <annevk> I didn't really want to get into that
  471. # [16:20] <annevk> I was hoping more people would be on board and see the problem, but it didn't work out that way
  472. # [16:21] <annevk> as far as dealing with the CSS WG goes, I guess the issue is mostly that you can only get people's attention at a F2F meeting and the discussion is not always focused there
  473. # [16:21] * hsivonen learns about https://developer.mozilla.org/index.php?title=en/application%2F%2Fhttp-index-format_specification
  474. # [16:22] <hsivonen> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/application%2F%2Fhttp-index-format_specification rather
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  478. # [16:32] <zcorpan> another application of the html parser?
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  487. # [17:02] <matjas> annevk: “doing that just that”
  488. # [17:03] <matjas> s/honers/honors/
  489. # [17:03] <annevk> yay for matjas
  490. # [17:04] <annevk> new weekly everyone: http://blog.whatwg.org/happy-2012
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  495. # [17:10] <annevk> ooh, now 7,129 subscribers according to Google Reader
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  498. # [17:18] <AryehGregor> Yay, I found a point where there's a notable lack of interop.
  499. # [17:19] <AryehGregor> For transform and transform-origin, percentages are supposed to be relative to the border box.
  500. # [17:19] <AryehGregor> Everyone does the actual transforms that way, but for getComputedStyle(), IE treats percentages as relative to the padding box, and Chrome 17 dev relative to the content box.
  501. # [17:22] <annevk> if you've been working on this for a while that's surprising
  502. # [17:22] <AryehGregor> Yeah, interop is quite good.
  503. # [17:22] <AryehGregor> I've heard 3D transforms are worse.
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  505. # [17:23] <AryehGregor> Of course, transitions and animations are probably a mess, but those are going to be a real pain to test anyway . . .
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  529. # [17:45] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  532. # [17:46] <AryehGregor> So, so far there's perfect interop on the visual results of 2D transforms, except that Opera sometimes slightly exceeds my 1.5px error margin for rotations.
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  534. # [17:46] <AryehGregor> The only lack of interop so far is computed values.
  535. # [17:46] <GPHemsley> annevk: Agreed.
  536. # [17:47] <AryehGregor> But I'm only written a 487-line test file so far.
  537. # [17:47] <AryehGregor> I'm sure I'll find something.
  538. # [17:47] <annevk> GPHemsley: ah, we're back to conversing about mebibytes :)
  539. # [17:48] * annevk has been trying to write something coherent about XML5
  540. # [17:48] <GPHemsley> annevk: Yup. Gotta keep you on your toes. :)
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  543. # [17:48] <annevk> Introduction: XML is hard.
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  555. # [18:12] <AryehGregor> Now I found an Opera bug, but it's really table-related, not transform-related: height on a table seems to control the height of the border box, not the content box.
  556. # [18:15] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Seems to be already bugged
  557. # [18:16] <AryehGregor> k.
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  560. # [18:21] <gsnedders> I presume WebKit doesn't do that anymore, then?
  561. # [18:21] <gsnedders> WebKit used the quirks box-model for tables for years
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  564. # [18:23] <AryehGregor> Doesn't seem to.
  565. # [18:24] <gsnedders> That bug goes back to when I did WebKit stuff, so yeah.
  566. # [18:24] <gsnedders> Though it goes all the way back to KHTML.
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  593. # [19:53] <Ms2ger> Why's this forums guy going on about Mosaic?
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  626. # [21:30] <annevk> http://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/o98ty/pow_blinking_in_morse_code_to_spell_torture/c3ff18w reading about history on reddit is so much more fun
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  698. # Session Close: Tue Jan 10 00:00:00 2012

The end :)