/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-01-27 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  39. # [02:12] <Hixie> 1/away afk
  40. # [02:12] <Hixie> wow that went wrong.
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  42. # [02:13] <WeirdAl> Hixie: FF12 will have support for XHR timeout 8)
  43. # [02:14] <WeirdAl> hm, I guess anne's the one who really needs to know
  44. # [02:15] <WeirdAl> I guess I was just thinking of those little browser icons indicating support for features in HTML5
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  83. # [04:19] <zewt> i sure wish the whole "URL" vs "URI" distinction would go away; almost nobody even knows the difference, heh
  84. # [04:20] <zewt> it's particularly silly that we have a function called "createObjectURL" that says "return a URI"
  85. # [04:20] <zewt> "UR" + r(and()&1? "I":"L")
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  124. # [07:07] <Hixie> zewt: that's why i basically only refer to things as URLs.
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  178. # [09:56] <zcorpan> booo! google code search is no more :-(
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  184. # [10:09] <asmodai> zcorpan: best replacement so far is koders.com
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  187. # [10:10] <zcorpan> asmodai: cheers
  188. # [10:10] <zcorpan> + <script>
  189. # [10:10] <zcorpan> + document.write('<link rel=stylesheet href=foo.css><script></script>x');
  190. # [10:10] <zcorpan> + // at this point, whether the DOM contains an "x" or not depends on how quickly the foo.css file could be processed
  191. # [10:10] <zcorpan> + </script>
  192. # [10:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: could we make this deterministic by awaiting a stable state before parsing the "x"?
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  198. # [10:19] <asmodai> zcorpan: keep in mind that you need to search in lowercase, since camel casing triggers some special search IIRC
  199. # [10:19] <asmodai> http://googlecode.blogspot.com/2012/01/making-web-speedier-and-safer-with-spdy.html
  200. # [10:19] <asmodai> Seems SPDY is gaining traction.
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  204. # [10:25] <zcorpan> yeah i noticed
  205. # [10:25] <zcorpan> the camelcase thing seems stupid
  206. # [10:26] <zcorpan> if you wanted to search for the terms separately, you'd use space between them
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  212. # [10:41] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the parsing is deterministic in Gecko in that case
  213. # [10:41] <hsivonen> zcorpan: computed style isn't
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  215. # [10:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I'm not particularly keen at throwing engineering effort at making the computed style deterministic in this case
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  217. # [10:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I think make the parsing non-deterministic would be bad, though, which is why it's deterministic in Gecko
  218. # [10:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan: possibly in violation of the spec depending on how my spec comments have been addressed
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  229. # [10:58] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok. if the comment is correct, then the spec's parsing is non-deterministic
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  232. # [11:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I disapprove of the spec on this point, then
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  234. # [11:11] <zcorpan> http://cheezburger.com/View/4088691968
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  264. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: Thanks for the review. I incorporated your review changes and I also add code for conditionally serving up the additional W3C images
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  266. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> just sent the updated patch to you
  267. # [12:34] * MikeSmith now steps away for a beer break
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  269. # [12:38] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I replied
  270. # [12:38] <hsivonen> too early for beer over here, unfortunately
  271. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> :)
  272. # [12:39] * hsivonen has lunch
  273. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> thanks
  274. # [12:39] <louisremi> Hi, I can't login to w3.org/wiki using my W3C member's login and password, where can I get some help?
  275. # [12:43] <louisremi> (or who should I ask?)
  276. # [12:46] <jgraham> MikeSmith is a good person to ask but
  277. # [12:46] <jgraham> 05:27 * MikeSmith now steps away for a beer break
  278. # [12:47] <louisremi> MikeSmith: are you there?
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  281. # [12:54] <zcorpan> does "overlap" imply "not completely nested"?
  282. # [12:54] <jgraham> In what context?
  283. # [12:54] <jgraham> I assume "yes"
  284. # [12:55] <zcorpan> well i'm asking because i wanted to suggest changing the name of http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/#webvtt-file-using-only-nested-cues
  285. # [12:56] <zcorpan> to "WebVTT file using no overlapping cues", but that wouldn't be accurate either if nested cues are also "overlapping"
  286. # [12:57] <jgraham> I guess it's not clear in that case]
  287. # [12:57] <jgraham> I was thinking of markup
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  300. # [13:40] <louisremi> MikeSmith: are you there? I'm having issues logging in to w3.org/wiki
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  304. # [13:52] <hsivonen> argh. no single page link from the MathML 3 spec
  305. # [13:52] <hsivonen> neither from MathML 2
  306. # [13:54] <hsivonen> does MathML have its own <img>-like element?
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  308. # [13:56] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML2/chapter7.html#id.7.1.4.2
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  310. # [13:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
  311. # [13:58] <hsivonen> so mglyph takes a font name, not a URL
  312. # [13:58] <hsivonen> so MathML has no elements that go and load external resources by URL?
  313. # [13:58] * zcorpan also finds http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML3/chapter4.html#contm.image
  314. # [13:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan: different meaning of "image" :-)
  315. # [13:59] <zcorpan> yeah, i suspected
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  321. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> louisremi: here now
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  324. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> louisremi: btw I fixed the character borkedness in the user DB
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  328. # [14:29] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: mathml3 mglyph takes images specified by url
  329. # [14:31] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: on image, yeah we explicitly tried to avoid name clash but no one told us that browsers implemented image until we'd had image for a decade (Hixie put us right:-)
  330. # [14:33] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: in addition mathml3 annotations can be specified via url rather than inline but you are allowed to (and i assume browsers would) ignore such annotations
  331. # [14:36] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: I had a non standard build of the mathml spec as a single page at one time for someone, was it you? it wouldn't be hard to do if it would be useful
  332. # [14:37] * asmodai wishes more browsers would fix their mathml displaying.
  333. # [14:37] <asmodai> Oh well, at least my mathml displays well in ff and better and better in opera.
  334. # [14:39] <david_carlisle> amodai: it also should work well in IE with mathplayer (Ive not had an IE without mathplayer since 5.0 which is a while ago now)
  335. # [14:39] <asmodai> david_carlisle: I try to go with the least amount of additional dependencies. :)
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  338. # [14:40] <david_carlisle> asmodai: so do I really, but needing Ie is a commercial rather than technical issue. "IE" is a bunch of related dlls and if you have to get one of them from a different source so be it, it;s not as if any of it is open source or anything
  339. # [14:41] <david_carlisle> needing mathplayer, I meant
  340. # [14:41] <asmodai> Fair point.
  341. # [14:42] <david_carlisle> Still, i wish it just worked without having to give the same lame excuse for a decade:-)
  342. # [14:42] <Ms2ger> They have SVG now... Maybe someone should write a script that renders MathML to SVG
  343. # [14:43] <asmodai> It's sad, because their math input panel can generate mathml to the clipboard
  344. # [14:44] <david_carlisle> There are some, i think, but I'd rather they did the decent thing and implemented it natively (MS has a very nice MathML system in its text rendering software behind the Ms Office suite)
  345. # [14:45] <asmodai> yeah, think the math input panel is part of that
  346. # [14:45] <david_carlisle> asmodai: Actually, not (It's a big company:-)
  347. # [14:46] <asmodai> ah
  348. # [14:46] <asmodai> Mmm, was it part o fmy base 7 install then?
  349. # [14:47] <david_carlisle> asmodai: The math input panel (unlike office) is part of windows itself. Of course though they appreciate the benefits of open standard formats for moving data from one to the other, or something....
  350. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> Yeah, they did embrace mathml, apparently
  351. # [14:49] <david_carlisle> Microsoft has been on the Math WG for quite a while (Giorgi from opera also) now it would be nice to have representatives from say CHROME in the WG as well:-)
  352. # [14:50] <Ms2ger> Agreed, those damned Chromies ;)
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  365. # [15:22] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: oh, indeed mglyph in MathML 3 is different. thanks
  366. # [15:22] <hsivonen> it's nice that it uses the src attribute in no namespace for loading external content, so I have it covered already
  367. # [15:23] <hsivonen> does MathML autoload external content by URL using an attribute other than src?
  368. # [15:23] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: no
  369. # [15:24] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: thanks
  370. # [15:24] <hsivonen> whoa. there's a cd attribute
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  372. # [15:25] <hsivonen> oh, but it takes an NCName
  373. # [15:25] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: yes but like the mathml2 definitionURL attribute there is no implication taht you have to do anything with it
  374. # [15:26] <david_carlisle> ther is also href in mathml3 which should act like html's a/@href
  375. # [15:26] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: ok
  376. # [15:26] * hsivonen sees also cdgroup
  377. # [15:26] <hsivonen> and altimg
  378. # [15:26] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: again it's metadata on where one might find the underlying semantics but a browser neededn't fetch
  379. # [15:27] <david_carlisle> altimg ah, you have the spec open (I should) well you only need that if you don't render the mathml natively
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  381. # [15:29] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: ok.
  382. # [15:29] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: I'm concerned about the case where someone puts MathML with external content references in email in order to get the message phone home when viewed
  383. # [15:30] <david_carlisle> grepped for anyuri in the relax schema and src href definitionurl altimg cdgroup is the full list
  384. # [15:30] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: thanks
  385. # [15:31] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: My brain isn't wired like a browser implementor's, could you expand on the concern
  386. # [15:31] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: the general expectation is that viewing an email message is a private operation (unlike viewing a Web page)
  387. # [15:32] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: so it's expected that when you view a Web page, as a side effect, stuff gets logged on servers
  388. # [15:32] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: when viewing an email, it's expected that no one but your computer and your email server find out that you viewed an email sent to you
  389. # [15:33] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: so what do you do with html img? (well I know that mail clients typically offer the user an option to fetch or not)
  390. # [15:33] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: I'm limiting HTML img only to cid: and data: URLs
  391. # [15:34] <david_carlisle> well my expectation (aka hope) would be that mathml mglyph does whatever img does and any others can be blocked by default in a context where these cncerns apply
  392. # [15:35] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: ok
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  394. # [15:36] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: Is this a mozilla thing, or should we be specifying this stuff somewhere?
  395. # [15:38] <Ms2ger> Mozilla thing
  396. # [15:38] <Ms2ger> But maybe we should
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  398. # [15:41] <zewt> hsivonen: well, it's up to the UA to handle that (gmail hides images by default until you click a button)
  399. # [15:41] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: this is a Mozilla thing
  400. # [15:41] <hsivonen> zewt: this is for a more paranoid than usual mode in Thunderbird
  401. # [15:42] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: there's no plan to expose this as a Web API, so no spec needed in that sense
  402. # [15:42] <zewt> right, a UA concern
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  413. # [16:10] <hsivonen> FWIW, IE exposes an API of this nature to Web content and, IIRC, Collin Jackson used it as an example of a bad Web platform security feature in a presentation
  414. # [16:11] <hsivonen> (because getting interoperable impls. would involve a lot of spec surface that needs to change as the rest of the platform changes)
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  416. # [16:11] <louisremi> MikeSmith: Thanks for fixing my name. Do you have any idea why I cannot connect to the wiki?
  417. # [16:11] <Ms2ger> toStaticHTML?
  418. # [16:11] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: yes
  419. # [16:12] * Ms2ger thought it was a bad idea at the time
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  421. # [16:13] <hsivonen> ok. now I need to write test cases for this stuff
  422. # [16:13] <Ms2ger> Eh
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  427. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> louisremi: you mean you can't connect to it at all?
  428. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> ..or do you mean you can't edit?
  429. # [16:24] <louisremi> MikeSmith: Yes, I'm using my W3C member login and password and it always fails
  430. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> what URL?
  431. # [16:24] <louisremi> MikeSmith: http://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&returnto=Special:UserLogin
  432. # [16:25] <louisremi> MikeSmith: oh wait, I just used the password that you originally sent me and it works [facepalm].
  433. # [16:25] <MikeSmith> :)
  434. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> yeah, that main wiki is not tied to the ldap user db
  435. # [16:26] <louisremi> MikeSmith: I thought updating my password would update it across all W3C sites
  436. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> it's a separate passoword
  437. # [16:26] <louisremi> MikeSmith: alright
  438. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> yeah, confusing
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  516. # [19:34] <Ms2ger> Hixie, so you're saying the test is correct?
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  520. # [19:34] <Hixie> i didn't check the test itself
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  542. # [19:35] <Hixie> hence not closing the bug
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  549. # [19:35] <Hixie> well that was bad timing
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  558. # [19:35] <Ms2ger> Philip`, you check https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14421 please
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  570. # [19:53] <AryehGregor> Does IE not support <base href=""> with relative URLs?
  571. # [19:55] <AryehGregor> document.querySelector("base").href = document.querySelector("base").href; fixes it.
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  580. # [20:12] <Hixie> is there an appropriate wg for web api features relating to signing content before form submission?
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  582. # [20:15] <Ms2ger> The wg that's going to spec window.crypto?
  583. # [20:17] <Hixie> yeah, that would do
  584. # [20:17] <Hixie> which is that one? :-)
  585. # [20:18] <Hixie> public-web-security@w3.org will do
  586. # [20:18] <Ms2ger> Sounds good
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  593. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> Oh . . . except in some browsers (but not others!), document.querySelector("base").href = document.querySelector("base").href; resolves document.querySelector("base").href according to itself.
  594. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> Which really it should.
  595. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> Per spec.
  596. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> But it seems IE and Gecko don't.
  597. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> I should catch that in my reflection tests, but I didn't test setting URLs with <base> active.
  598. # [20:39] <Ms2ger> I think I remember some bug about that for Gecko...
  599. # [20:39] * AryehGregor works around some more
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  601. # [20:41] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=600809
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  605. # [20:41] <GPHemsley> When it comes to a datetime value, is there an explicit, complete list of valid characters somewhere?
  606. # [20:42] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, how so?
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  609. # [20:42] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: What do you mean?
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  611. # [20:42] <Ms2ger> Well, what do *you* mean? :)
  612. # [20:42] <GPHemsley> I'm looking for a complete list of valid characters in a datetime value
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  614. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, that bug's fix is not per spec.
  615. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> I think.
  616. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> It might not be
  617. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> The spec may or may not have said at the time what it says now
  618. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-microsyntaxes.html#valid-date-string-with-optional-time
  619. # [20:44] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15752
  620. # [20:45] <Ms2ger> Thanks
  621. # [20:45] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: I'm not looking for a parser definition, just a list of valid characters. Otherwise, I'd have to go through each of the ~15 algorithms to make sure I didn't miss something.
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  623. # [20:45] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, click the links, they don't point to algorithms
  624. # [20:46] <GPHemsley> they point to disparate descriptions of each type of datetime value
  625. # [20:47] <Ms2ger> ... Yes?
  626. # [20:47] <GPHemsley> That's not what I'm looking for
  627. # [20:48] <GPHemsley> There is a finite set of characters that can appear in a valid datetime value.
  628. # [20:48] <GPHemsley> I'm looking for a complete iteration of the characters in that set.
  629. # [20:49] <Ms2ger> It's the union of the characters mentioned in those descriptions
  630. # [20:49] <GPHemsley> but even those descriptions do not list their complete set at once; they only list them as they come up in the description/algorithm
  631. # [20:50] <Ms2ger> Yes
  632. # [20:51] <GPHemsley> nevermind
  633. # [20:51] <GPHemsley> what about the maximum length of a datetime value?
  634. # [20:52] <Philip`> Unlimited
  635. # [20:53] <Philip`> since you can have dates like 999999-01-01
  636. # [20:53] <GPHemsley> ok
  637. # [20:55] * Philip` doesn't see any permitted characters other than [0-9-+TZ :.]
  638. # [20:55] * Philip` provides no guarantee of correctness, though
  639. # [20:57] <GPHemsley> Philip`: Well, there are the duration characters, too. But thanks.
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  641. # [20:58] <Philip`> Durations aren't datetimes, I think
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  643. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> they are according to the HTML definition of "datetime value"
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  670. # [22:10] <asmodai> jgraham / wilhelm : managed to snatch a screenshot :)
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  685. # [22:31] <jgraham> asmodai: Oh, brilliant
  686. # [22:31] <jgraham> Let me know if there is a problem getting it onto the bug
  687. # [22:36] <asmodai> jgraham: emailed to the email address from my gmail, no bounce, so ought to be ok.
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  689. # [22:36] <asmodai> Along with accompanying explanation
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  703. # [23:26] <zewt> haha
  704. # [23:26] <zewt> i google for firefox, and the first link it gives me is Firefox 3.6
  705. # [23:27] <zewt> which goes to a page with no "no, really, this isn't what you want" notices
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  710. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> zewt: Huh. My first link is mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/, which lets me download v9
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  712. # Session Close: Sat Jan 28 00:00:00 2012

The end :)