/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-01-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jan 31 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:21] <Hixie> looks like the multipage copy not updating is a bug on anne's side, fwiw
  10. # [00:21] <Hixie> he'll be back soon so i'm gonna not worry about it
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  22. # [00:49] <Hixie> TabAtkins: done
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  24. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Yup, saw it.
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  28. # [00:54] <dglazkov> is annevk around?
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  37. # [01:10] <Hixie> dglazkov: vacation, back early feb
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  39. # [01:16] <tomz> Hixie: any idea who to contact at W3C to notify them that http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/css3/selectors/fieldset.htm is out-of-date?
  40. # [01:17] <Hixie> nobody at w3c, i would hope
  41. # [01:17] <Hixie> who at microsoft, no idea
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  43. # [01:17] <Hixie> http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/ has a message from Jason Upton, so I'd start with him
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  45. # [01:18] <tomz> Hixie: ms posted that for errors in these tests to contact the appropriate wc3 group, i assume because they submitted these as standards tests. I'll track down Jason and ask for more details.
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  47. # [01:19] <Hixie> oh if the tests are html wg tests then i guess you'd contact the html wg test group
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  50. # [01:20] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing
  51. # [01:20] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing/Feedback/
  52. # [01:20] <tomz> Hixie: thanks.
  53. # [01:20] <Hixie> you can probably just upload a fix if you're part of that group
  54. # [01:20] <Hixie> it's a public repoi
  55. # [01:20] <Hixie> repo
  56. # [01:23] <Hixie> hober: yt?
  57. # [01:26] <Hixie> TabAtkins: do you know if the csswg has done anything with ::cover/::backdrop-of(), 'anchor', or any of the other things needed by fullscreen and <dialog>?
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  59. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> hober and anne were the people owning that, but anne's gone and hober hasn't done anything.
  60. # [01:32] <Hixie> k
  61. # [01:33] <Hixie> is anne still doing css stuff?
  62. # [01:33] <Hixie> i thought he'd dropped all his css and cssom specs
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  68. # [01:48] <TabAtkins> He did, yes.
  69. # [01:48] <TabAtkins> That's what I meant by "gone".
  70. # [01:48] <Hixie> oh i thought oyu meant he was on vacation :-)
  71. # [01:49] <Hixie> hopefully i can catch hober at some point and see what's up
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  73. # [01:49] <Hixie> failing that i'll just spec the stuff in html the same way as for @global
  74. # [01:50] <Hixie> i need to understand fullscreen better though before i can do that
  75. # [01:50] <Hixie> also need to figure out what we want to have happen if you fullscreen a sibling of a modal active <dialog>
  76. # [01:51] <Hixie> and what we want to have happen if you show() a <dialog> in an iframe... does it break the frame? i'm guessing no, security-wise, but roc suggested the answer might be yes in one of the threads.
  77. # [01:52] <TabAtkins> Yes, it's something that needs some thought.
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  80. # [01:53] <Hixie> oh fullscreen is probably still on anne's plate actually
  81. # [01:53] <Hixie> since iirc that was one of the specs he was doign outside the csswg
  82. # [01:53] <Hixie> caused a kerfuffle iirc
  83. # [01:54] <Hixie> i guess i'll just wait for him to get back and speak to him about it
  84. # [01:55] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
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  87. # [01:59] <roc> Hixie: fullscreen is restricted so that you can only fullscreen a descendant of the current fullscreen element
  88. # [01:59] <roc> avoids the sibling problem
  89. # [01:59] <Hixie> k
  90. # [01:59] <Hixie> not sure what that means for <dialog> exactly
  91. # [02:00] <TabAtkins> I guess modal dialogs should be treated as full-screen?
  92. # [02:00] <Hixie> you can have multiple <dialog> elements at once, when they're not modal
  93. # [02:00] <Hixie> coming from entirely different parts of the DOM
  94. # [02:00] <roc> my gut feeling is that <dialog> should be treated like fullscreen except without making the browser window fullscreen
  95. # [02:00] <roc> dunno about non-modal dialogs ... bleh
  96. # [02:01] <Hixie> well i'll study the fullscreen spec in more detail later
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  104. # [02:08] <Hixie> ok i'm about to add a rule to HTML's ua.css sheet that has a selector that is eight lines long and has neither combinator nor comma.
  105. # [02:10] <jamesr_> how does that work? are you not considering space a combinator?
  106. # [02:10] <Hixie> space is a combinator
  107. # [02:10] <jamesr_> hm, lots o' pseudo?
  108. # [02:10] <Hixie> looooooots of pseudos
  109. # [02:11] <TabAtkins> I'm curious!
  110. # [02:11] <Hixie> though oddly enough, it's specificity is only 1 for the class level!
  111. # [02:11] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  112. # [02:13] <Hixie> ah, crap
  113. # [02:13] <Hixie> actually
  114. # [02:13] <Hixie> I can't make it 8 lines long
  115. # [02:14] <Hixie> since there's no way to split a selector that contains no spaces
  116. # [02:14] <Hixie> hmm...
  117. # [02:14] <Hixie> unless...
  118. # [02:15] <Hixie> aha!
  119. # [02:15] <Hixie> eeeexcellent
  120. # [02:16] <roc> this being Chrome-only sucks: http://getcrackin.angrybirds.com/ :-(
  121. # [02:16] <TabAtkins> Using newline escapes?
  122. # [02:17] <Hixie> newline escapes don't work in selectors
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  125. # [02:19] <Hixie> tis checked in if you want to poke fun at me
  126. # [02:19] <Hixie> btw if you want to see other gnarly selectors in the HTML spec, check out the auto-generated 'quotes' rules now
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  128. # [02:21] <TabAtkins> what section of Rendering is it in?
  129. # [02:22] <Hixie> the thing i just added is in Bidirectional text
  130. # [02:22] <TabAtkins> Woah, found it.
  131. # [02:22] <Hixie> and quotes is the next section
  132. # [02:23] <TabAtkins> :not() should accept a compound selector list, at least.
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  137. # [02:27] <jamesr_> roc, tell rovio?
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  139. # [02:28] <roc> why don't you tell them? They're your partners
  140. # [02:30] <divya> roc best part is the lol-worthy sniffing
  141. # [02:30] <roc> I actually contacted the contact email, who said "The web browser version of Angry Birds is only supported by Google Chrome. That’s how the original was built as well so we were locked into building on top of their existing platform."
  142. # [02:30] <roc> of course, chrome.angrybirds.com works fine in Firefox, and I pointed this out...
  143. # [02:30] <divya> https://github.com/miketaylr/Snort/blob/master/snort.yml#L1263
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  146. # [02:35] <Hixie> i don't understand why people who want to target a particular browser feel the need to roadblock other browsers
  147. # [02:35] <Hixie> maybe display a disclaimer about it not having been tested or something, but come on
  148. # [02:35] <Hixie> just write to the damn specs and let the browsers figure it out
  149. # [02:35] <roc> indeed
  150. # [02:36] <roc> in this case, if you hack past that roadblock, you get a page that mostly works but can't play due to some webkit-prefixed stuff (IIRC)
  151. # [02:37] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i don't understand your most recent e-mail
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  153. # [02:37] <Hixie> TabAtkins: surely if the browser determins the tab order dynamically from the presentation, the whole point is moot
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  156. # [02:38] <TabAtkins> I'd probably have to give some examples. Busy right now.
  157. # [02:38] <Hixie> k
  158. # [02:39] <TabAtkins> But the issue is definitely independent of presentation.
  159. # [02:41] <Hixie> i don't see how, but ok. i gotta go now. if you could add more to the thread when you get a chance that would be fantastic
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  161. # [02:41] <Hixie> don't worry about it otherwise
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  163. # [02:41] <Hixie> right, bbl
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  196. # [03:33] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  197. # [03:33] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  261. # [07:10] <Hixie> wtf
  262. # [07:11] <Hixie> why is chrome claiming my websocket server sends back non-utf-8 data
  263. # [07:11] <Hixie> are there any tools out there for debugging websocket servers?
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  270. # [07:19] <Hixie> ohhhhh
  271. # [07:19] <Hixie> i am dumb
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  368. # [11:50] <asmodai> So, what's the aim for Opera's MathML support? Full support or only the CSS profile?
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  519. # [17:35] * kjetilkWork is looking for annevk, is he hanging out on IRC much these days?
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  522. # [17:38] <Velmont> kjetilkWork: Nope, he's vacationing :P
  523. # [17:39] <kjetilkWork> Velmont, OK, any idea when he's back?
  524. # [17:39] <Ms2ger`> Back next week-ish, I think
  525. # [17:39] <kjetilkWork> OK, thanks!
  526. # [17:40] <Velmont> Ms2ger`, or someone else: IndexedDB spec is referencing a DOMException that is TypeError, -- however, in the referenced DOM3, I can't really find that. TypeMismatchError, I can find, but not TypeError. Is it a) a bug in IndexedDB spec, or b) something else? -- http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndexedDB/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#widl-IDBDatabase-transaction-IDBTransaction-any-storeNames-unsigned-short-mode
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  528. # [17:41] <Ms2ger`> Velmont, there isn't one
  529. # [17:41] <Ms2ger`> But it may not be a bug
  530. # [17:42] <Velmont> Ms2ger`: They don't make a new DOMException TypeError themselves either, like they do for NotFoundError and other new types.
  531. # [17:43] <Ms2ger`> Hm
  532. # [17:43] <Ms2ger`> It's probably meant to be a JS-TypeError
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  535. # [17:43] <Velmont> Ah, yes.
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  544. # [17:58] <mhausenblas> any opinions on ReSpec v2?
  545. # [17:58] <Ms2ger`> Use Anolis instead
  546. # [17:58] <mhausenblas> hu?
  547. # [17:59] * mhausenblas currently using http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/ReSpec.js/documentation.html
  548. # [17:59] <mhausenblas> not clear what the diff is and how 'stable' v2 is
  549. # [17:59] <Ms2ger`> Writing a document that's unusable without JS is an antipattern
  550. # [17:59] <mhausenblas> ah! gsnedders's work, right
  551. # [18:00] <mhausenblas> Ms2ger`, only during spec writing, then it's saved to pure HTML
  552. # [18:00] <jgraham> Ms2ger`: Or, as we say on the web "pattern"
  553. # [18:00] <Ms2ger`> jgraham--
  554. # [18:00] <jgraham> Add a comma as needed
  555. # [18:00] <jgraham> Or a (semi)colon, I suppose
  556. # [18:00] <jgraham> If that's your thing
  557. # [18:03] <mhausenblas> tx guys. seems ReSpec doesn't resonate with ye ;)
  558. # [18:03] * jgraham understands that some people really like ReSpec
  559. # [18:03] <Ms2ger`> Well, some people like git
  560. # [18:03] <mhausenblas> it's handy
  561. # [18:03] <mhausenblas> I do!
  562. # [18:04] <mhausenblas> git > hg > svn > CVS
  563. # [18:04] <jgraham> Ms2ger`: Those people are "people who got over the learning curve" I think
  564. # [18:04] <jgraham> s/curve/cliff/ if you like
  565. # [18:04] * mhausenblas bets Ms2ger` prefers CVS, right? :P
  566. # [18:05] <Ms2ger`> HG, actually
  567. # [18:05] <mhausenblas> no, really?
  568. # [18:05] <Ms2ger`> CVS is an abomination in the eyes of the lord
  569. # [18:05] <Ms2ger`> And I don't like it much either
  570. # [18:05] <jgraham> Ms2ger`: oh you are just ashamed to admit your VSS fetish
  571. # [18:05] * mhausenblas used to be a bitucket fanboy but TBH github seems more productive to me
  572. # [18:05] <mhausenblas> he he
  573. # [18:05] <mhausenblas> VSS rules!
  574. # [18:05] <Ms2ger`> VSS?
  575. # [18:06] <mhausenblas> Visual Source Safe?
  576. # [18:06] <mhausenblas> or so
  577. # [18:06] * mhausenblas admits that he's been using this piece of $hit some 10y ago
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  579. # [18:07] <jgraham> First palce I ever worked was a game company that used VSS. Their method of version control seemed to involve lots of shouting at each other to release the locks
  580. # [18:07] * jgraham didn't really understand version control or software development at the time
  581. # [18:08] <jgraham> But I understood that VSS sucked!
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  633. # [19:08] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  634. # [19:08] <Ms2ger`> Good night
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  659. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> Um. Can someone who speaks Japanese tell me what the hell this is? https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/431090_361580643870743_164814896880653_1241513_2073993201_n.jpg
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  661. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> Surprise: table rendering is not interoperable!
  662. # [20:11] <divya> :))
  663. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> Who'd've thunk it?
  664. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> . . . Does Gecko display only one caption per table?
  665. # [20:15] <AryehGregor> Well, it seems that's invalid, but the extra ones should still render.
  666. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> What's the behavior with multiple display:table-caption elements?
  667. # [20:16] <AryehGregor> CSS2.1 says they should all be rendered.
  668. # [20:16] <AryehGregor> Gecko seems to not render any past the first.
  669. # [20:17] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I just wondered if Gecko had a difference between HTML and CSS captions.
  670. # [20:17] <AryehGregor> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=144517
  671. # [20:17] <AryehGregor> Dunno.
  672. # [20:18] * fishd_ is now known as fishd
  673. # [20:18] <AryehGregor> Ah, looks like there are reftests in the CSS2.1 suite that Gecko fails because of this.
  674. # [20:18] <AryehGregor> Okay, so it's a known issue on all counts.
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  683. # [20:29] <Ms2ger`> AryehGregor, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=144517
  684. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger`, I already found it.
  685. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> Thanks, though.
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  687. # [20:33] <Ms2ger`> Np
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  710. # [21:34] <roc> TabAtkins: is Chrome going to add a same-origin restriction for fonts?
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  713. # [21:35] <Ms2ger`> "Well that's just silly."
  714. # [21:35] <Ms2ger`> Oh, isn't it
  715. # [21:37] <Hixie> that particular bug is ridiculous
  716. # [21:37] <Hixie> i don't even understand how we got there
  717. # [21:37] <Hixie> who implements those two functions as synonyms?!
  718. # [21:39] * Ms2ger` has a look at bonsai
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  720. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> roc: I hope so?
  721. # [21:40] <roc> the longer you wait, the more pressure builds on us to drop ours
  722. # [21:40] <roc> sorta like our stance on WebM
  723. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> I'll bring it up at the f2f. It's Apple people who were fighting it.
  724. # [21:41] <roc> does it need to be Webkit-wide?
  725. # [21:41] <TabAtkins> It's best for it to be so, yes.
  726. # [21:41] <TabAtkins> We try and minimize platform differences.
  727. # [21:41] <Ms2ger`> Hixie, kipp@netscape.com ;)
  728. # [21:41] <TabAtkins> (Despite the fact that Apple's already forked WebKit...)
  729. # [21:41] <roc> huh?
  730. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> For all practical purposes, iOS uses a fork.
  731. # [21:42] <Hixie> Ms2ger`: kiiiippppp! figures.
  732. # [21:42] <roc> interesting
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  734. # [21:42] <Ms2ger`> (Revision 1.1 of nsGlobalWindow.cpp has it)
  735. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> Not sure if iBooks uses the iOS fork or a new one, but it's in the same boat.
  736. # [21:43] <Hixie> Ms2ger`: probably brendan's fault in a netscape < 4
  737. # [21:43] <Ms2ger`> Might very well have been
  738. # [21:43] <Ms2ger`> But that isn't on MXR, afaik
  739. # [21:44] <Hixie> indeed
  740. # [21:44] <Ms2ger`> I'd look up what Opera does, but they don't let me :(
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  745. # [21:59] <astearns> TabAtkins: I've been told that iBooks is using Pages, not Webkit
  746. # [21:59] * Quits: davidb_ (~davidb@66.207.208.98) (Quit: davidb_)
  747. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> astearns: That doesn't seem correct from what I've seen, but I'm not certain.
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  750. # [22:05] <roc> hyatt did a lot of Webkit work for iBooks (possibly an older version though)
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  752. # [22:06] <gsnedders> iBooks is certainly using WebKit, as can be seen if you open up the ZIP archive.
  753. # [22:07] <astearns> the markup is one thing, the engine displaying that markup might be something else. I don't know for sure, though.
  754. # [22:07] <gsnedders> I doubt it's anything but WebKit given the number of -webkit- prefixes in it.
  755. # [22:09] <Hixie> surely not even microsoft would use a word processor engine to render html content
  756. # [22:09] <Hixie> oh wait
  757. # [22:09] * hober is staying out of this one
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  759. # [22:10] <TabAtkins> Hey, hober, Hixie was looking for you.
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  761. # [22:11] <hober> Hixie: yo
  762. # [22:11] <Hixie> true
  763. # [22:11] <Hixie> something about dialog and fullscreen
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  765. # [22:11] <Hixie> i forget what now
  766. # [22:11] <hober> oh, fun
  767. # [22:11] <TabAtkins> It's just a little bit up the scrollback, dude.
  768. # [22:11] <Hixie> i think i ended up concluding that i was waiting for anne to get back
  769. # [22:11] <Hixie> since he's still working on fullscreen
  770. # [22:12] <hober> ahh, i see
  771. # [22:12] <hober> yeah, the www-style thread on that didn't go anywhere iirc
  772. # [22:12] <Hixie> we need to figure out how the css parts of dialog and fullscreen work before i spec <dialog>
  773. # [22:12] <TabAtkins> It was about ::cover, and how it interacted with multiple dialogs (modal and not) and fullscreen.
  774. # [22:12] <hober> yes
  775. # [22:12] <Hixie> yeah, that sounds right
  776. # [22:18] <Hixie> anyone know if the dom ui events spec is tracking http://www.w3.org/mid/op.v5t7fxvq2q99of@coruscant ?
  777. # [22:18] <Hixie> or did they decide to punt on key events
  778. # [22:20] <Ms2ger`> They haven't done much since the f2f
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The end :)