/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-02-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 08 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  21. # [00:55] <Hixie> zcorpan pointed me to some spam on the status annotations, so i poked around a bit
  22. # [00:55] <Hixie> and cleared out the obvious spam
  23. # [00:55] <Hixie> yay for having a database that logs every single change and trivially lets me roll back specific changes
  24. # [00:55] <Hixie> my favourite was that #background had the following test: http://www12.0zz0.com/2012/02/07/10/492179392.jpg
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  26. # [01:02] <nessy> lol
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  44. # [01:36] <Hixie> abarth: is there a more up to date reference for "The Web Origin Concept" than the RFC?
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  46. # [01:38] <abarth> Hixie: nope
  47. # [01:38] <Hixie> k
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  55. # [02:06] <crankharder> my cache manifest looks somethin like this: http://pastie.org/3338233 -- after it gets loaded, it seems that any page that returns a 404/500 gets redirected to the cached version of /offline, even when still online
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  235. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: on the topic of unnecessary headers: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Feb/0144.html
  236. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> (in this case, response headers)
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  239. # [03:39] <MikeSmith> I wish it was possible to run Firefox and Nightly at the same time
  240. # [03:40] <heycam> it is!
  241. # [03:41] <heycam> you just need to start from the command line to do it
  242. # [03:41] <heycam> and use separate profiles
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  245. # [03:47] <MikeSmith> heycam: ah, OK
  246. # [03:47] <MikeSmith> didn't know
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  406. # [10:26] <annevk> morning
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  410. # [10:35] <annevk> oh yes
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  412. # [10:35] <annevk> HTTP was fixed with regards to automatic redirect behavior
  413. # [10:35] <annevk> only took half a decade
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  419. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: dunno if you saw my ping about this earlier, but on the topic of unnecessary headers: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Feb/0144.html
  420. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> response header in this case
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  428. # [11:00] <zcorpan> "I think that while talking about responsive image, introducing element that would choose image based on media-query, we should explore more generic approach... any media"
  429. # [11:00] <zcorpan> OK, now that thread totally lost track of the original problem
  430. # [11:00] <wilhelm_> zcorpan: Which list?
  431. # [11:00] <zcorpan> whatwg
  432. # [11:01] <zcorpan> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-February/034767.html
  433. # [11:03] <annevk> there already is a media attribute
  434. # [11:03] <zcorpan> why stop there? let's reinvent SVG's <switch>
  435. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> oh did that some from SVG?
  436. # [11:04] <annevk> repressed CDF memories bubble up
  437. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> is that the same switch that was in early drafts of Web Forms 2.0?
  438. # [11:04] <annevk> I don't think so
  439. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> I had thought that came from XForms
  440. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> ah OK
  441. # [11:05] <zcorpan> wow i don't remember a WF2 <switch>
  442. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> yeah
  443. # [11:05] <zcorpan> was it dropped in 2004?
  444. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> ah wait
  445. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> maybe it was in early Web Apps 1.0
  446. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> lemme look
  447. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2005-09-01/#using
  448. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2005-09-01/#switch
  449. # [11:08] <zcorpan> was that for tabbed interfaces?
  450. # [11:09] <zcorpan> seems so
  451. # [11:09] <annevk> yeah
  452. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/WD-xforms-20010608/slice8.html#ui-conditional-switch
  453. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> ah
  454. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> yeah
  455. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> that Xforms one was just a normal case-switch
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  486. # [12:20] <annevk> http://validator.w3.org/nu/
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  501. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/default/use-cases/Overview.html
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  504. # [12:57] * KjetilK comes looking for annevk, long time :-)
  505. # [12:59] <KjetilK> annevk, people have been advocating putting Access-Control-Allow-Origin:* indiscriminately into response headers based on the CORS spec
  506. # [13:00] <annevk> hey man
  507. # [13:00] <KjetilK> I think it makes sense to do so, but when I read the spec, it seems to me it doesn't allow it
  508. # [13:00] <KjetilK> o/
  509. # [13:00] <annevk> oh
  510. # [13:00] <annevk> it's allowed for sure
  511. # [13:00] <KjetilK> oh, ok
  512. # [13:00] <annevk> and it's safe, too
  513. # [13:00] <KjetilK> yeah, it amounts to saying "actually, I don't care"
  514. # [13:01] <annevk> unless it's an intranet resource or some such
  515. # [13:01] <KjetilK> right
  516. # [13:01] <annevk> then it's not safe
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  518. # [13:02] <KjetilK> so, I suppose it is the start of 5.1 that is a bit confusing
  519. # [13:02] <KjetilK> since if I just follow the link to "simple cross-origin request", then, yes, it seems to be allowed
  520. # [13:02] <KjetilK> but if I just read on, then it seems it is conditional on the request Origin header
  521. # [13:03] <annevk> should clarify that I guess
  522. # [13:03] <KjetilK> would be nice
  523. # [13:05] * KjetilK was about to create som Plack middleware for it, but sees it has already been done
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  525. # [13:06] <annevk> cool
  526. # [13:07] * Joins: richt (richt@nat/opera/x-kobqzekwtklhsnxr)
  527. # [13:09] * KjetilK pings his favorite Debian developer about it instead
  528. # [13:10] <annevk> i think i'm gonna water down the server requirements
  529. # [13:11] <annevk> they are rough guidelines for certain scenarios, but servers can really do whatever the fuck they want
  530. # [13:11] <annevk> it doesn't matter
  531. # [13:11] <KjetilK> ok
  532. # [13:11] <annevk> as long as the clients are compliant everything should be good
  533. # [13:11] <KjetilK> yup
  534. # [13:11] <KjetilK> any timeline for it to go to Rec?
  535. # [13:12] <annevk> I don't really care, but people seem to try to push it to Last Call
  536. # [13:12] <annevk> so, couple more years maybe...
  537. # [13:12] <KjetilK> hehe
  538. # [13:12] <annevk> it's not going to change
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  542. # [13:13] * KjetilK would have liked a normative reference from the SPARQL 1.1 Protocol, but that's happening RSN :-)
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  546. # [13:26] <hsivonen> Exorcising DTDs with RDFa: http://www.w3.org/News/2012.html#entry-9353
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  548. # [13:30] <zcorpan> wasn't there a DTD for RDFa+HTML?
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  552. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah, there is still
  553. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> oh
  554. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> no, not for RDFa+HTML specifically
  555. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> not currently at least afaik
  556. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> they do have a DTD in the RDF Core 1.1 spec
  557. # [13:39] <hsivonen> zcorpan: there have been various RDFa + some legacy deliverable of the XHTML2 WG
  558. # [13:41] * Quits: izhak (~izhak@213.87.240.76) (Remote host closed the connection)
  559. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> I seriously think we should have a policy that bans WGs from publishing any new DTDs
  560. # [13:41] <GPHemsley> annevk: I think it is dangerous to suggest that a content author would have sufficient knowledge to determine whether a particular phrase might be untranslatable in another language; this differs from specifically asserting that something should not be translated, as a name or technical term.
  561. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I've pushed all changes upstream
  562. # [13:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
  563. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> thank you man
  564. # [13:43] <zcorpan> http://dev.w3.org/html5/rdfa/#validation
  565. # [13:43] * Parts: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  566. # [13:43] <hsivonen> zcorpan: :-(
  567. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, if you happen to (re)look at the changesets, probably best to look in reverse chronological order, because I ending up backing out/reverting much of the initial changes
  568. # [13:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that's an HTML WG deliverable, so it can be put through the Decision Process
  569. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> yeah
  570. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> i guess I missed that part of the spec :(
  571. # [13:45] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the validator doesn't start due to schema errors
  572. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> yeah
  573. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> please retry it
  574. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> I found that too
  575. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> I think it's due to the presets changing and the entity map needing to be rebuilt
  576. # [13:45] <zcorpan> hsivonen: sadly i've stopped caring about that kind of thing
  577. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: but if that doesn't work, lemme know
  578. # [13:46] <zcorpan> i've objected to dtds being written and new doctypes being minted before with not so much success
  579. # [13:47] <hsivonen> Prediction: Wikipedia will cite Appendix B.1 as the truth despite its rules about primary sources.
  580. # [13:47] <gsnedders> Hixie: Google account lives again, FYI.
  581. # [13:47] <hsivonen> gsnedders: what happened?
  582. # [13:47] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. rerunning build.py fixed it
  583. # [13:48] * MikeSmith breathes a sigh of reliev
  584. # [13:48] <gsnedders> hsivonen: No idea. I got account login forwarding to generic "common reasons for an account to be disabled include ToS violations", etc. etc. Sent email questioning, 24 hours later I login again.
  585. # [13:48] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Never heard from a human.
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  587. # [13:49] <hsivonen> gsnedders: scary to be chosen for deletion. but good that it was resolved so quickly
  588. # [13:50] <hsivonen> "The only difference between the RDFa 1.1 DTD versus the RDFa 1.1 Lite DTD is the addition of the following attributes to the metainformation attributes collection; content, rel, rev, datatype, resource, and inlist. "
  589. # [13:50] <hsivonen> what about href and src?
  590. # [13:50] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Makes me want to prioritize moving my email off there higher.
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  593. # [13:51] <hsivonen> gsnedders: it's unfortunate that Gmail's UI is so vastly superior to Fastmail's
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  595. # [13:53] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I practically use the IMAP interface all the time.
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  609. # [14:10] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15936
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  614. # [14:21] <hsivonen> this deployment mechanism for Validator.nu is so brittle
  615. # [14:21] <hsivonen> I expect real sysadmins to laugh at me
  616. # [14:21] <annevk> GPHemsley: could leave a comment on the blog post saying that's taking the spec too far
  617. # [14:21] <annevk> GPHemsley: not sure I care enough to change the post
  618. # [14:24] <zcorpan> hsivonen: thanks
  619. # [14:27] <hsivonen> annevk: what's prefixing the Fullscreen API buying is so far other than sites having to support multiple syntaxes and "cancel" getting bikeshedded to "exit" and "S" to "s"?
  620. # [14:28] <annevk> anyone familiar with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagstuhl ?
  621. # [14:29] <annevk> hsivonen: dunno
  622. # [14:32] <zcorpan> hsivonen: speaking of prefixes, it'd be nice to get Blob.mozSlice unprefixed (also webkitSlice)
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  624. # [14:33] <annevk> I got an invite and they upgraded my academic credentials from nothing to Dr.
  625. # [14:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan: is a bug on file?
  626. # [14:33] <annevk> not sure if that's a positive or negative, but the castle looks nice
  627. # [14:33] <zcorpan> not sure
  628. # [14:33] <hsivonen> annevk: everyone is a Dr. in Germany
  629. # [14:34] <annevk> so what about the people that actually studied?
  630. # [14:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: deployed to validator.nu
  631. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: excellent
  632. # [14:37] <hsivonen> annevk: doktordoktor I suppose :-)
  633. # [14:37] <zcorpan> hsivonen: appears not, but i'll file
  634. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> glad the changes didn't cause anything to blow up
  635. # [14:37] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it blew up deployment but I fixed it
  636. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> ok, glad for that
  637. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> and sorry if it blindsided you
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  640. # [14:38] <hsivonen> fortunately, the app crashed before it told the old process to shut down
  641. # [14:38] <hsivonen> so there was no user-visible interruption in service
  642. # [14:39] <MikeSmith> ah good
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  644. # [14:43] <hsivonen> hmm. glazou hasn't posted the most import post yet yet
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  649. # [14:46] <GPHemsley> annevk: Done (awaiting moderation).
  650. # [14:46] <annevk> approved
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  654. # [14:49] <GPHemsley> thanks
  655. # [14:51] <annevk> roc: I can email www-dom for you
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  660. # [15:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=725289
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  664. # [15:15] <zcorpan> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=78111
  665. # [15:17] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. we should give you the bit that allows you to file confirmed bugs
  666. # [15:17] <annevk> webkit should too
  667. # [15:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I'm told you now have the CANCONFIRM bit
  668. # [15:20] <annevk> heh
  669. # [15:20] <annevk> open source, it works
  670. # [15:20] <jgraham> hsivonen: But you can't confirm it? ;)
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  672. # [15:23] <hsivonen> jgraham: I haven't leveled high enough to confirm that someone can confirm
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  677. # [15:35] <matjas> did this section get moved to a different spec? http://web.archive.org/web/20110123174457/http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/apis-in-html-documents.html#dom-innerhtml
  678. # [15:35] <annevk> yes
  679. # [15:36] <annevk> http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html
  680. # [15:36] <annevk> long time ago
  681. # [15:36] <annevk> you should read the WHATWG Weekly :p
  682. # [15:36] <matjas> i must’ve missed that one :(
  683. # [15:36] <annevk> spread the news :)
  684. # [15:37] <matjas> document.innerHTML used to be mentioned explicitly; has it been removed or does `element.innerHTML` imply it should also work for `document`?
  685. # [15:38] <matjas> http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html#innerhtml
  686. # [15:38] <annevk> Ms2ger killed it
  687. # [15:38] <annevk> and thereby broke XHR
  688. # [15:38] <annevk> he has yet to fix it somehow I believe
  689. # [15:40] <hsivonen> killed what? Document.innerHTML?
  690. # [15:40] <annevk> yeah
  691. # [15:40] <hsivonen> ok
  692. # [15:40] <annevk> lack of implementations
  693. # [15:40] <hsivonen> DOMParser FTW
  694. # [15:40] <annevk> I thought it was useful personally
  695. # [15:40] <annevk> people are actually testing XHR + data URLs because they want async
  696. # [15:41] <annevk> iirc
  697. # [15:41] <annevk> have to ask the typlab guys again
  698. # [15:41] <hsivonen> XHR is nicer that DOMParser of course
  699. # [15:41] <hsivonen> in Gecko, it does stuff on another thread and doesn't lock the UI
  700. # [15:42] <annevk> using XHR seems kind of hackish to me
  701. # [15:42] <annevk> but well, if it works
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  712. # [16:16] <zcorpan> there's something wrong with table 1 in http://transitioning.to/2012/01/the-world-of-pain-that-is-html5-video/
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  714. # [16:17] <zcorpan> it doesn't include firefox 4 and above
  715. # [16:17] <zcorpan> maybe each version has less market share than ie6
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  718. # [16:18] <zcorpan> but that seems unlikely, no?
  719. # [16:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan: not according to statcounter
  720. # [16:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan: does Chrome really support HW acceleration for H.264?
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  735. # [16:46] <zcorpan> i guess the ALA article is the reason for the new whatwg permathreads
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  738. # [16:51] <Wilto> Whoever wrote that thing is a total hack. Handsome, though.
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  741. # [16:52] <Wilto> But since you mentioned it, I'd kinda like to un-perma the <picture> thread, at least. There's a pretty solid general consensus, but now it's treading water a bit.
  742. # [16:53] <Wilto> I'm not certain what the next steps are, but I've pestered a couple of vendor folks about whipping up a functional prototype and I'm writing up a slightly more formal proposal based on the feedback in that thread.
  743. # [16:54] <Ms2ger> Wilto, wait until Hixie gets to it
  744. # [16:54] <zcorpan> the <picture> proposal from 2007 was totally different. it was for enabling rich fallback.
  745. # [16:54] <Wilto> Hah, I kinda thought that might be the next step.
  746. # [16:55] <beverloo> I like the <picture> proposal, but do also think it may be a bit ambiguous to authors to have <img>, <picture> and <figure>
  747. # [16:55] <Wilto> “picture” drives me up a wall.
  748. # [16:55] <beverloo> (name-wise)
  749. # [16:55] <Wilto> Yeah.
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  751. # [16:56] <Wilto> I want something that says "bigass art." Like you guys saw, I've been chucking around "art" (dumb) and "poster" (ambiguous and also dumb).
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  754. # [16:58] <hsivonen> Wilto: what Boris said about what media queries match changing after page load still applies to <picture>, though
  755. # [16:58] <zcorpan> Wilto: if you want a successful outcome, try to steer the discussion into use cases, problem descriptions, existing sites working around the lack of the feature, and away from solution proposals
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  757. # [17:00] <zcorpan> Wilto: when all there is is solution proposals, it gets ignored
  758. # [17:00] <zcorpan> Wilto: if there's a clear problem description, a solution can be designed that solves the problem in the best technical way
  759. # [17:00] <zcorpan> having 20 people bikeshedding where the alt attribute should go is just wasting time
  760. # [17:01] <Wilto> zcorpan: Seriously, man.
  761. # [17:01] * jgraham tried to move to use cases and failed to think of anything that could even possibly be a solution
  762. # [17:01] <Wilto> I mean, I can absolutely see use cases. I covered some in that ALA thing. Maybe I'll just move it back in that way.
  763. # [17:02] <Wilto> And I can cite no small number of failed attempts to work around the issue.
  764. # [17:02] <zcorpan> post use cases and work arounds to the list
  765. # [17:02] <zcorpan> that's what Hixie looks at
  766. # [17:03] <zcorpan> and then wait for Hixie to respond
  767. # [17:03] <zcorpan> good luck :-)
  768. # [17:04] <Wilto> Thanks dude! Huge help, this.
  769. # [17:04] <zcorpan> np
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  776. # [17:07] <AryehGregor> Is this the "RWD Heaven" megathread that I've been ignoring?
  777. # [17:07] * Quits: jonatasnona (~jonatas@186.207.192.124) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  778. # [17:07] <Wilto> Nah, that thing scares the hell out of me.
  779. # [17:08] <Wilto> I'm not touching that discussion.
  780. # [17:08] <jgraham> And the child threads it spawned
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  782. # [17:08] <Wilto> Is that how the <picture> thread kicked off? Eesh.
  783. # [17:08] <Ms2ger> (http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Bindings/),
  784. # [17:08] <Ms2ger> Heh
  785. # [17:08] <Wilto> No wonder it's going in circles.
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  787. # [17:13] <Wilto> Anyway. Figure I'll post a big "maybe we're getting a little off-track here; let me sum up the original reasoning, the need, and how we arrived at some of the conclusions we did" thing on there.
  788. # [17:13] <Wilto> Thanks again, zcorpan!
  789. # [17:15] <jgraham> Wilto: Try to keep it short and to the point :) There are a few epic rambles on that thread already :)
  790. # [17:16] <Wilto> Oh, for sure. I'll keep it concise.
  791. # [17:16] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  792. # [17:17] <Wilto> I'd like to just say "everyone go read the history on the EtherPad link I posted, and around the third mention of <noscript> you may see where we've exhausted all our options."
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  795. # [17:18] <jgraham> Wilto: So the most important thing is "what are your *requirements*"
  796. # [17:19] <jgraham> (weird use of quotes there)
  797. # [17:19] <Wilto> "A single request that serves an appropriately sized _content_ image, based on screen size." In a perfect world, that's based on media queries—since it would be crazy flexible going forward.
  798. # [17:20] <Wilto> But that's the elevator version of it.
  799. # [17:20] <jgraham> Just a simple list of "this is what we want to achieve" and "this is why we don't think it is only a temporary set of requirements"
  800. # [17:20] <annevk> Ms2ger: where is dom-bindings from?
  801. # [17:20] <annevk> Ms2ger: I guess it redirects...
  802. # [17:20] <Ms2ger> It does
  803. # [17:20] <zcorpan> Wilto: media queries is in the solution proposal bucket
  804. # [17:20] <jgraham> Wilto: That is sort of high-level. Your actual requirements must be lower level than that
  805. # [17:20] <Wilto> Yeah. Kind of an aside, there.
  806. # [17:20] <Ms2ger> I assume you ignore "exclusion opportunity" emails
  807. # [17:21] <jgraham> Liek why does the image have to be "appropriately sized"
  808. # [17:21] <jgraham> (can you even define what that means?)
  809. # [17:21] <jgraham> (because it probably doesn't mean "viewport width")
  810. # [17:21] <Wilto> That's a good point.
  811. # [17:22] <jgraham> (at least not at the time of the request)
  812. # [17:22] <Wilto> "Alternate image sources based on device properties, including but not limited to screen size."
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  814. # [17:24] <Wilto> Sure wish I did words gooder.
  815. # [17:24] <zcorpan> maybe something like "i want users to see my images with as good quality as possible, as fast as possible, and with as little bandwidth as possible. the user should be able to print a high resolution image after going offline."
  816. # [17:25] <zcorpan> if that's what you want
  817. # [17:25] <Wilto> Ah, I follow you. I'm phrasing it like I'm pitching a line for a spec somewhere, not describing the goal.
  818. # [17:25] <Wilto> Also, that is completely what I want.
  819. # [17:26] <zcorpan> then say that :)
  820. # [17:26] <Wilto> Also a pony.
  821. # [17:26] <Wilto> Santa is really dropping the ball on those two fronts.
  822. # [17:27] <Wilto> Again: hugely helpful, guys. Thanks so much.
  823. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> hey guys, stop whatever else bulshit you're discussing, because game-changing breaking news just became available: "libreffice" not is including rich text editing
  824. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> using HTML 5 canvas
  825. # [17:27] <jgraham> Yeah, the key thing about use cases is that they are typically about what your *users* want
  826. # [17:27] <annevk> Ms2ger: no idea what it was originally?
  827. # [17:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: did you mean "not" or "now"?
  828. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> oops
  829. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> yeah
  830. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> NOW
  831. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> see, nobody knew that before yesterday
  832. # [17:28] <Wilto> Apparently, shit just got real.
  833. # [17:28] <annevk> oh yeah http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-DOM-Bindings-20080410/
  834. # [17:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that won't pre-empt the thread, then :-/
  835. # [17:28] <annevk> doh
  836. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> nobody involved in the discussions knew that until YESTERDAY
  837. # [17:28] <zcorpan> one solution i have proposed in the past is using high-res progressive image and http range requests, and let the UA download as much of the image it wants until it has good enough quality, and do a range request for more of the image when it wants higher quality (e.g. because the user zooms in)
  838. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> wink wink
  839. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> what a fuggin facade
  840. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> who is trying to fool who here?
  841. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> one fool talking to another and trying to pretend that neither of them knew
  842. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> BIG NEWS
  843. # [17:29] <zcorpan> but i don't know if that's the best possible solution to the problem
  844. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> jesus
  845. # [17:29] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I suppose that'd work with interlaced PNG, but is there a photo compression format where that works?
  846. # [17:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan: (JPEG2000 is not it)
  847. # [17:30] <zcorpan> hsivonen: normal JPEG supports progressive compression. is that not good enough?
  848. # [17:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that is, a format that has the property that to decode with both dimensions halved, you download the first quarter of data
  849. # [17:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan: does it have the property I just stated?
  850. # [17:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan: JPEG2000 was supposed to be an improvement in this department, but it was full of FAIL
  851. # [17:31] <zcorpan> no idea
  852. # [17:31] <annevk> haha "alexmog: More people understand matrices than margin collapsing"
  853. # [17:31] <hsivonen> to decode JPEG2000 with dimensions halved without compromising quality, you need to download the first *half* of data
  854. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> Wilto: btw your tweets are a model for how others should conduct themselves on twitter
  855. # [17:32] <hsivonen> annevk: matrices are taught in high school
  856. # [17:32] <zcorpan> my idea is for it to work like <video> fetching where you do an unbounded range fetch and abort when you have "enough"
  857. # [17:32] <zcorpan> and do another request when you want more
  858. # [17:32] <hsivonen> annevk: margin collapsing wasn't taught when I want to school
  859. # [17:33] <annevk> you got matrix math in high school? i'm so jealous
  860. # [17:33] <jgraham> We got it in 6th form i.e. at age 17-18
  861. # [17:33] * annevk is prolly better with margin collapsing than matrices
  862. # [17:33] <jgraham> But not much, really
  863. # [17:34] <Ms2ger> 5th form! ;)
  864. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: on the subject of searching for appropriate words for things, I wonder if there is a word for "preach the process while simultaneously blowing smoke up everbody's asses"
  865. # [17:34] <hsivonen> annevk: it was an opt-in course of an opt-in level of math
  866. # [17:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: who is doing that?
  867. # [17:35] <annevk> ah, maybe it's Level A math
  868. # [17:35] <annevk> we had Level A 1,2 and Level B 1,2
  869. # [17:35] <annevk> I did B 1,2
  870. # [17:36] <annevk> which was mostly about proofs and silly things
  871. # [17:36] <beverloo> matrices sound much, much more like a B thing though
  872. # [17:36] <beverloo> given Dutch high-scool maths
  873. # [17:36] <annevk> yeah dunno
  874. # [17:36] <annevk> too late now
  875. # [17:37] <annevk> chance was Level A too, didn't make much sense either
  876. # [17:37] <annevk> especially as you needed it quite a bit in advanced Physics
  877. # [17:37] <zcorpan> Wilto: maybe the best solution to this problem is "give 10 developers a year or two to improve JPEG encoders to radically reduce file size/quality ratio of JPEG images"
  878. # [17:38] * Quits: ivan\ (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  879. # [17:39] <zcorpan> any markup solution to this problem isn't going to be usable in the next few years anyway, whereas encoding improvements are available to authors immediately
  880. # [17:39] <hsivonen> it's nice that people are interested in improving JPEG encoders again
  881. # [17:40] <hsivonen> as I understand it, the encoder everyone uses is very old
  882. # [17:40] <annevk> decoder or encoder?
  883. # [17:40] <zcorpan> encoder
  884. # [17:40] <hsivonen> has it been improved since the Independent JPEG group dude wrote it?
  885. # [17:42] <annevk> supposedly Opera has a proprietary decoder (not sure about encoder) that's superior
  886. # [17:43] <hsivonen> superior in speed? memory footprint?
  887. # [17:43] <annevk> both I believe
  888. # [17:43] <annevk> but this information is quite old :)
  889. # [17:44] <zcorpan> next stop: örebro c
  890. # [17:44] <annevk> on the train?
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  892. # [17:44] <annevk> guess so
  893. # [17:45] <annevk> so Sweden uses "C", Norway "S", and the Netherlands "CS"
  894. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> hbf?
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  896. # [17:46] <annevk> Ms2ger: Germany
  897. # [17:46] * Joins: ivan\ (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
  898. # [17:46] <Ms2ger> Correct
  899. # [17:46] <annevk> Hauptbahnhof
  900. # [17:47] <annevk> kind of funny how in Norway and Sweden the words are put together whereas in Dutch, which typically does that, they are not
  901. # [17:48] <annevk> oh well, back to work
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  907. # [18:11] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  913. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> dglazkov: you are too 元気過ぎ with that message
  914. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> or maybe not
  915. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> instead we need more positive vibrations
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  917. # [18:26] <Wilto> MikeSmith: Swearing about the MBTA and referencing Zelda constantly?
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  919. # [18:27] <AryehGregor> This demonstrates the value of testing lots of permutations: -ms-transform-origin: 0 0 1em computes to "0px 0px 0px", but "1em 0 1em" computes to "16px 0px 16px".
  920. # [18:27] <AryehGregor> Cool bug.
  921. # [18:27] <jgraham> MikeSmith: We have a WebAPI for that right?
  922. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> you dudes are great
  923. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> you give me hope
  924. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> Wilto: keep that shit up man
  925. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> seriously
  926. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> jgraham: but don't be quite so cynical
  927. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> there is hope
  928. # [18:30] <Wilto> MikeSmith: Will do, sir. Will do.
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  937. # [18:44] <dglazkov> MikeSmith: stay positive, dammit!
  938. # [18:45] <dglazkov> MikeSmith: also, Google translate says your funny pictures mean "Too healthy" :)
  939. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> heh
  940. # [18:46] <dglazkov> or "past energetic", apparently.
  941. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> no
  942. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> keep pushing
  943. # [18:46] <dglazkov> that would be when I start all-caping my greetings.
  944. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> keep Dominic in the loop
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  963. # [19:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: heh
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  977. # [19:55] <hober> Wilto: if constantly swearing about the T is wrong, I don't want to be right
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  980. # [20:00] <kennyluck> I think what the RWD thread needs is a wiki page.
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  982. # [20:01] <Ms2ger> I think what it needs is a flamethrower
  983. # [20:02] <Wilto> That “heaven” one?
  984. # [20:03] <Wilto> hober: Our hatred only fuels the T. Until it falls over and/or bursts into flames.
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  993. # [20:18] <crankharder> soooo: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9187094/application-cache-404-500-pages
  994. # [20:18] <crankharder> ^-- app cache, fallback, 400/500 pages
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  996. # [20:19] <hober> Wilto: these days I spend my time cursing Muni; i'm just a veteran of T-cursing
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  1007. # [20:56] <Hixie> gsnedders: k
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  1011. # [21:03] <Hixie> gsnedders: sorry about the lack of transparency, fwiw
  1012. # [21:04] <Hixie> gsnedders: as far as e-mail goes, what i do is have my own domain redirect all mail to gmail, and gmail redirect all mail back, so gmail is in the loop (and does spam filtering) but isn't in control (since i can always route around it)
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  1018. # [21:09] <gsnedders> Hixie: What I'd like to know, more than anything else, is what flipped the presumably automatic switch
  1019. # [21:09] <gsnedders> Hixie: So I can make sure that isn't a side-effect of my setup
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  1032. # [21:28] <Hixie> gsnedders: yeah, the lack of transparency there sucks. i think the theory is that if we were transparent, abusers would be able to work out what the heuristics were and could game them
  1033. # [21:29] <Hixie> gsnedders: but it still sucks
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  1037. # [21:50] <gsnedders> Hixie: Any intention to move CanvasPixelArray over to a Uint8ClampedArray?
  1038. # [21:50] <Hixie> what's CanvasPixelArray? :-)
  1039. # [21:51] <Hixie> (we moved over months ago)
  1040. # [21:51] <gsnedders> Ah, I missed that. :)
  1041. # [21:51] * gsnedders has scarcely followed HTML5-land in a while…
  1042. # [21:52] <Ms2ger> I even fixed the tests, as Philip` doesn't work on them
  1043. # [21:53] <Ms2ger> (Hi Philip`! Got something planned for tomorrow?)
  1044. # [21:53] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: The ones in the W3C HTML5 test repo?
  1045. # [21:53] <Ms2ger> Yep
  1046. # [21:55] <roc> annevk: thanks for the email to www-dom. Also, I have been to Dagstuhl a couple of times
  1047. # [21:58] <Hixie> lol, csswg wants to keep fullscreen in its charter
  1048. # [21:58] <Hixie> meanwhile, the spec is being written elsewhere
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  1050. # [22:00] <annevk> roc: oh really, is it worth it?
  1051. # [22:01] <roc> it will depend mostly on who's going and what the topic is
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  1053. # [22:02] <roc> I really liked the location but mainly because of the history, and you already live in a place that has history so that may not matter to you
  1054. # [22:03] <annevk> kk, guess I won't be going then; not that much into security
  1055. # [22:03] <roc> zcorpan: other than mysteriously failing to mention Firefox 4, they also fail to mention that Google has promised to remove H.264 from Chrome
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  1057. # [22:04] <jgraham> roc: So far that promise hasn't been worth much
  1058. # [22:04] <roc> annevk: btw I don't know if you noticed, but hsivonen was castigating you for changing the case of the identifiers in the fullscreen spec
  1059. # [22:05] <roc> jgraham: don't get me started
  1060. # [22:05] <Ms2ger> Alright, we won't
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  1062. # [22:06] <roc> gaaaah
  1063. # [22:06] <roc> something happened to my machine during a Windows update and now Flash crashes incessantly ... in all browsers
  1064. # [22:07] <jgraham> Haha
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  1066. # [22:07] <jgraham> I suggest deleting flash :)
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  1100. # [23:26] <roc> This is the best idea I've heard all day: "I'm confident that if authors had to write "-webkit-contact-www-hyphen-style-at-w3-dot-org-for-standardization-text-size-adjust" that there would be a strong incentive to get the first W3C draft submitted quickly."
  1101. # [23:32] * Parts: teleject (~christoph@cpe-66-69-217-240.austin.res.rr.com)
  1102. # [23:32] <annevk> roc: the casing changed ages ago with some amount of discussion; if everyone thinks it's better with a dash and all I guess we should go with that, but it seems rather silly to me
  1103. # [23:32] <annevk> and anyway, implementations are prefixed today so it does not seem to matter much
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  1107. # [23:33] <annevk> long term it seems that dashes in words go away anyway; just some kind of transition period
  1108. # [23:33] <roc> there's no dash in our implementation
  1109. # [23:33] <roc> we're currently mozRequestFullScreen
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  1111. # [23:34] <roc> and mozCancelFullScreen
  1112. # [23:35] <roc> Webkit is analogous
  1113. # [23:35] <roc> Henri was complaining that changing the case of the S and changing cancel to exit were bikeshedding changes
  1114. # [23:36] <roc> (that we should have prevented by shipping unprefixed)
  1115. # [23:36] <roc> I'd like you guys to sort it out :-)
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  1118. # [23:40] <annevk> there's a dash in the pseudo-class, implies camelcase in the name
  1119. # [23:40] <annevk> both equally bad imo
  1120. # [23:40] <annevk> guess I can ask hsivonen tomorrow
  1121. # [23:41] <annevk> I don't really feel that strongly, but it seems that if it's acceptable to have a simpler to type variant, we should go with that
  1122. # [23:43] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  1123. # [23:45] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@2002:55e5:dbb7:0:e404:2558:8747:fd74) (Quit: tomasf)
  1124. # [23:45] * Joins: schnoomac (~schnoomac@melbourne.99cluster.com)
  1125. # [23:45] <jgraham> roc: Not sure why a long silly name is good. The only way it would help would be to discourage people from using stuff. But if that was the goal, simply not releasing it would be far more effective.
  1126. # [23:46] <annevk> meh
  1127. # [23:46] <annevk> inbox 404
  1128. # [23:46] <annevk> i was at less than 330 or so
  1129. # [23:47] <annevk> holidays are over it seems
  1130. # [23:47] <roc> there are competing valid goals, so simply choosing some and dropping the others doesn't solve the problem
  1131. # [23:47] <jgraham> You are aiming to reach 310?
  1132. # [23:47] <annevk> maybe i should 410 it
  1133. # [23:47] <annevk> inbox gone certainly has a nice ring to it
  1134. # [23:47] <jgraham> Uh, yeah 410
  1135. # [23:47] <jgraham> Dammit
  1136. # [23:47] <annevk> anyway, sleepytimes
  1137. # [23:47] <annevk> nn
  1138. # [23:49] <jgraham> roc: It isn't clear to me why anyone would favour the paricular compromise where you go for maximum ridiculosity in the name.
  1139. # [23:53] <roc> annevk: oh, you're talking about the CSS identifiers? CSS is totally addicted to hyphens in names, there's no getting away from that
  1140. # [23:56] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GGZYMKDCXLV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  1141. # [23:59] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f7304be.pool.mediaWays.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1142. # Session Close: Thu Feb 09 00:00:00 2012

The end :)