/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-02-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Feb 20 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <annevk> I don't, it's something that can be mended easily over time
  4. # [00:01] <annevk> especially if we make specs more hackable
  5. # [00:01] <zewt> ("this spec hasn't been set in stone so it can start getting out of date, so everyone should use a useless, confusing, decade-old spec" sigh)
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  7. # [00:04] <annevk> yeah i don't know what's up with that
  8. # [00:04] <annevk> i can sort of see the i want-to-play-by-silly-rules-so-i-cannot-reference-what-implementors-actually-need, but if you need to reference the newer draft anyway, also referencing crappy material is just wrong
  9. # [00:05] <annevk> that you even need to argue such a point because of some hearsay about "hot debate"
  10. # [00:05] <annevk> ugh
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  33. # [01:29] <adiabatic> Occasionally I have fairly mundane questions about how, say, <form> elements (ought to) work or whether <hgroup><h2>…</h2><h1>…</h1></hgroup> is OK. Which location of "the HTML5 spec" should I use?
  34. # [01:30] <adiabatic> AFAICT there's at least one WHATWG one and more than one on w3.org
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  40. # [01:55] <kennyluck> adiabatic, for the latter question you usually look up the content model of each element definition.
  41. # [01:55] <kennyluck> For the former, it depends on what you are looking for, I guess.
  42. # [01:55] <kennyluck> s/content model/content model entry/
  43. # [01:56] <adiabatic> sure, but on http://developers.whatwg.org/ or http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ or http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/ or http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html or…? :D
  44. # [01:57] <Philip`> adiabatic: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ is the most complete and the most up-to-date
  45. # [01:58] <kennyluck> not the third one. But the others are pretty much similar in terms of content model, last I check.
  46. # [01:58] <Philip`> (Well, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ is more up-to-date but is too enormous)
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  48. # [01:59] <Philip`> The developers one is intentionally incomplete and non-normative, but if you just want to know what is defined as valid syntax then it should suffice and is probably the easiest to read
  49. # [01:59] <adiabatic> I've never been a fan of it, myself. I know how to skim stuff that isn't for me.
  50. # [02:00] <Philip`> The ones on w3.org have various changes and omissions, listed in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/introduction.html#how-do-the-whatwg-and-w3c-specifications-differ?
  51. # [02:01] <Philip`> Everything on w3.org/TR/ is generally hopelessly out of date and full of known bugs and has no value
  52. # [02:01] <Philip`> But the most important factor is what colour you prefer to read the spec in
  53. # [02:02] <adiabatic> Any huge spec bugs that you can name off the top of your head that I can use to dissuade others from using the w3.org one?
  54. # [02:02] * adiabatic reads
  55. # [02:02] <Philip`> See also: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#What_are_the_various_versions_of_the_spec.3F
  56. # [02:02] <Philip`> The TR/ one, or the dev.w3.org one?
  57. # [02:03] <adiabatic> so: /TR/: old, dev.: less old?
  58. # [02:05] <Philip`> TR/html5 says it's 25 May 2011, which is ancient - there's been about a thousand edits since then (judging by http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker)
  59. # [02:05] <kennyluck> dev.w3.org is not old I think.
  60. # [02:06] <kennyluck> At one time it was actually newer. That's was when the multipage version on whatwg.org was down.
  61. # [02:06] <Philip`> dev.w3.org is automatically updated after every commit, so it's about as up-to-date as the whatwg.org copies, when the build scripts aren't broken
  62. # [02:07] <Philip`> and when nobody has manually merged changes into the dev.w3.org copy because of HTML WG politics
  63. # [02:08] <Philip`> I think it's generally safe enough to use either the dev.w3.org or the whatwg.org copies, and doesn't make much difference for most people
  64. # [02:11] <Philip`> Oh, except that the dev.w3.org one omits stuff like the canvas 2D context and microdata and sticks them into separate documents, so it's harder to find features you're looking for
  65. # [02:12] <Philip`> You could choose to get overwhelmed by the complexity and just get everything from w3schools.com, I suppose
  66. # [02:12] <adiabatic> Funny man.
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  94. # [05:05] <heycam> hsivonen, playing around with the the validator.nu live dom parser, I'm wondering what determines whether a given opening tag breaks out of SVG content
  95. # [05:06] <heycam> hsivonen, for example if I write <p><svg><canvas> that makes an svg:canvas element a child of the svg, but if I write <p><svg><span> then it creates an html:span as a child of the p
  96. # [05:10] <MikeSmith> heycam: http://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/file/default/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/TreeBuilder.java#l1555
  97. # [05:11] <MikeSmith> ah wait
  98. # [05:11] <MikeSmith> that's for mathml
  99. # [05:11] <heycam> or svg maybe?
  100. # [05:11] <heycam> at the end of the big if condition
  101. # [05:12] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  102. # [05:12] <MikeSmith> it's for both
  103. # [05:12] <heycam> do you know what in the spec defines these particular elements as breaking out? are they all particular classes of elements?
  104. # [05:14] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/tree-construction.html#parsing-main-inforeign
  105. # [05:15] <heycam> ok
  106. # [05:15] <heycam> thanks. though I wonder why that particular list.
  107. # [05:15] <manu1> hsivonen, MikeSmith: I've escalated your bug against HTML+RDFa to a Last Call comment for RDFa Core 1.1 and RDFa Lite 1.1 - https://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/130
  108. # [05:15] <MikeSmith> manu1: hey
  109. # [05:16] <MikeSmith> manu1: thanks
  110. # [05:16] <manu1> np, just want to make sure it gets visibility in front of the entire WG (and some sort of sooner-than-later resolution) before we move forward.
  111. # [05:16] <MikeSmith> that's actually Henri's bug, I just +1ed it
  112. # [05:16] <MikeSmith> manu1: I appreciate it
  113. # [05:16] * manu1 nods.
  114. # [05:17] <manu1> I think we can do what you want... making HTML+RDFa Lite the default mode for the validator (HTML+RDFa Lite didn't intend to allow @href and @rel and @rev everywhere)
  115. # [05:18] <MikeSmith> that would be great
  116. # [05:19] <manu1> so, I think we can achieve what you hoped for in HTML+RDFa Lite 1.1... I think the WG will have a bigger issue w/ not allowing @rel and @rev and @href to be used on any element... it's worked that way for a long time and there are just some types of markup that you cannot do unless you allow @rel and @rev everywhere. We may be able to remove the @href everywhere rule, but that would trigger...
  117. # [05:19] <manu1> ...all sorts of b/c issues that are not in our charter.
  118. # [05:19] <MikeSmith> I see
  119. # [05:19] <manu1> (note, this only applies to RDFa 1.1 "Full")
  120. # [05:19] <MikeSmith> yup
  121. # [05:20] <manu1> Henri did say that he will most likely file a formal objection if we take that route... so... we're between a rock and a hard place here...
  122. # [05:20] <manu1> we remove it, we create b/c issues... we don't remove it Henri files a FO
  123. # [05:21] <manu1> I was thinking that we could add text to say that, even in HTML+RDFa 1.1 Full, that validation /warnings/ could be spit out when you use @href or @rel or @rev in places where it's not traditionally allowed.
  124. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> That's worth considering
  125. # [05:22] <manu1> so, people may shy away from doing that unless absolutely necessary... but I don't think the WG will go for complete removal of @href/@rel/@rev everywhere (for the reasons stated previously)
  126. # [05:23] <MikeSmith> actually it's the same problem for src too
  127. # [05:23] <MikeSmith> I see now that Henri didn't mention that in the title of the bug
  128. # [05:23] <manu1> I don't think @src is allowed anywhere that it wasn't traditionally allowed (that was the intent anyway)
  129. # [05:23] <MikeSmith> but it is listed in the description
  130. # [05:23] <MikeSmith> really?
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  132. # [05:23] <MikeSmith> if so, that's not clear in the spec
  133. # [05:24] <manu1> @src isn't in the same "allowed anywhere" category as @href, @rel and @rev ... that it's not clear in the spec is my bad... I'll try to clarify that further.
  134. # [05:24] <MikeSmith> OK
  135. # [05:24] <manu1> (or rather, in RDFa Core)
  136. # [05:24] <MikeSmith> that would help some
  137. # [05:24] <MikeSmith> I interpreted the current HTML+RDFa spec the same as Henri did
  138. # [05:25] <MikeSmith> "it's safe to guess that the above-quoted text tries to add attributes to all elements"
  139. # [05:25] <MikeSmith> and that's the way I implemented it in the validator schema
  140. # [05:25] * manu1 raises another bug for this one.
  141. # [05:25] <MikeSmith> thanks :)
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  144. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> manu1: I don't see that the b/c argument is a strong one
  145. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> iirc those were added to the spec relatively recently in its lifecycle
  146. # [05:28] <MikeSmith> they weren't in RDFa 1.0, right?
  147. # [05:29] <manu1> They were in RDFa 1.0: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#rdfa-attributes
  148. # [05:29] <MikeSmith> oh
  149. # [05:29] <MikeSmith> yeah, just found that now
  150. # [05:30] <MikeSmith> well I guess that make the b/c argument stronger
  151. # [05:30] <manu1> We could argue that HTML+RDFa was never defined, so there isn't a b/c argument there...
  152. # [05:31] <manu1> /however/ people have stuffed RDFa into HTML documents (non-XHTML) ...
  153. # [05:31] <manu1> the counter-argument to that is that there may not be that many of those documents out there...
  154. # [05:31] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  156. # [05:32] <manu1> the counter-counter argument to that is: Yeah, but then you're talking about XHTML and HTML supporting a different subset of RDFa attributes... in XHTML you support @href/@rel/@rev everywhere, in HTML you don't.
  157. # [05:32] <manu1> and that may be even more confusing to people than being consistent.
  158. # [05:32] <MikeSmith> right, that would be odd
  159. # [05:32] <MikeSmith> so they should be removed from XHTML also :-)
  160. # [05:32] <manu1> and then we have the whole b/c argument again :)
  161. # [05:34] <MikeSmith> anyway, I think the first step is for you all to just do the normal thing of responding to Henri's comment with a WG resolution that says what the decision is about the comment and giving a rationale
  162. # [05:34] <manu1> I think the best that we can reasonably do (an address almost all of the concerns) is kick out validation warnings in HTML+RDFa when people use @rel/@rev and @href where they haven't traditionally been used. Something along the lines of: "Hey, you better really know what you're doing... if you don't... don't use @href/@rel/@rev here"
  163. # [05:34] <manu1> ok, well - we should have a response within the next two weeks.
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  165. # [05:36] <MikeSmith> manu1: the warnings idea is worth discussing more
  166. # [05:36] <manu1> ok
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  170. # [05:50] <manu1> hsivonen, MikeSmith: https://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/132
  171. # [05:50] * MikeSmith looks
  172. # [05:50] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  175. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> heycam: about why that particular list, Henri would know. But I think he won't be on today until at least another hour or so from now
  176. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> Hixie would know too of course
  177. # [06:08] <heycam> MikeSmith, cool
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  180. # [06:30] <Hixie> heycam: we did a deep crawl of the web and looked for what non-svg elements are found in html files after <svg> tags and before </svg> tags
  181. # [06:30] <Hixie> heycam: that's what made the list
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  183. # [06:31] <heycam> Hixie, ah ok
  184. # [06:31] <heycam> thanks
  185. # [06:31] * MikeSmith finds http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0150.html
  186. # [06:31] <MikeSmith> " this list was determined empirically by studying over 6,000,000,000 pages that were specifically not XML pages"
  187. # [06:32] <heycam> thanks for jogging my memory of that mail I wrote 3 years ago :)
  188. # [06:33] <shepazu> that seems kinda arbitrary… you won't find significant existing pages that don't work in any browser
  189. # [06:33] <shepazu> there may be weird experiments, but they won't necessarily represent what people want to do with compound HTML+SVG documents
  190. # [06:34] <Hixie> there were a quite a few pages that included random <svg> fragments
  191. # [06:34] <Hixie> the goal was to make them not break badly
  192. # [06:34] <Hixie> (i.e. not be any worse than an extra blank spot on the page)
  193. # [06:34] <shepazu> that doesn't really seem like a sensible goal
  194. # [06:34] <Hixie> to each their own :-)
  195. # [06:35] <Hixie> it's a core goal of the whatwg effort
  196. # [06:35] <shepazu> you mean, to each your own
  197. # [06:35] <heycam> to each his own?
  198. # [06:36] <shepazu> no, to everybody, the goal of some small set of people making arbitrary judgments
  199. # [06:36] <MikeSmith> http://html5.org/r/1418 is the original change, for the record
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  219. # [08:48] <zcorpan> heycam|away: it's that particular list because Hixie researched legacy text/html content and those were the most common tags in <svg> or <math> that weren't intended to be svg or mathml
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  222. # [09:04] <hsivonen> heycam|away: breaking out of svg should happen per spec. does it not?
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  224. # [09:06] <hsivonen> manu1: thanks for opening those issues
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  227. # [09:24] <annevk> MikeSmith: can you make a repo now?
  228. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  231. # [09:27] <annevk> sweet
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  235. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> annevk: you wanted a particular repo created?
  236. # [09:37] <annevk> xml-er or xmler
  237. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
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  241. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> annevk: ready
  242. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xml-er
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  245. # [09:53] <annevk> guess I better do some work on it later then :)
  246. # [09:54] <annevk> thanks
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  257. # [10:24] <hsivonen> hmm. If this xml-er thing happens and SVG starts using it, I'll probably have to implement it
  258. # [10:24] <hsivonen> maybe I should join the CG
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  266. # [10:30] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/community/blog/2012/02/20/call-for-participation-in-responsive-images-community-group/ is not going to end well without implementor participation
  267. # [10:31] * zcorpan specced style="{ ... }"
  268. # [10:36] <zcorpan> hmm.
  269. # [10:36] <zcorpan> grep -iaPo "([a-z]+-)*(position|spacing|width|bottom|clip|size|height|left|right|top|bottom|margin|padding|indent|align|width|end|start|columns|border|shadow)\s*:\s*-?([1-9][0-9]*(\.[0-9]+)?|[0-9]?\.[0-9]+)\s+(px|em|ex|cm|mm|in|pt|pc)" web200904
  270. # [10:36] <zcorpan> 6265 occurrences
  271. # [10:36] <zcorpan> (i.e. space before unit)
  272. # [10:36] <zcorpan> but opera and firefox don't support that quirk
  273. # [10:36] <zcorpan> although i thought opera did before
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  278. # [10:51] <zcorpan> apparently we dropped it because supporting it broke some sites
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  280. # [10:53] <zcorpan> if that quirk could be dropped, maybe style={ can also be dropped
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  301. # [11:28] <asmodai> buddy of mine asking: Does anyone know if Firefox emits events if it unloads/loads an image for memory usage reasons?
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  307. # [11:51] <hsivonen> "Dropping prefixes before CR (via legacy clause in the prefixing policy documented at /TR/CSS)"
  308. # [11:51] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/blog/CSS/2012/02/19/resolutions-24/
  309. # [11:51] <hsivonen> does the CSS WG really need to lawyer a clause in their old policy to justify unprefixing?
  310. # [11:51] <hsivonen> why not just mint new policy as the situation requires?
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  323. # [12:36] <annevk> jgraham: where do you store blueberries?
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  330. # [12:59] <annevk> MikeSmith: aah, and one for progress events
  331. # [13:00] <annevk> so we can move http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/progress/
  332. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> annevk: set that up already
  333. # [13:00] <annevk> "2 months ago" oops :)
  334. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> no problem :)
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  337. # [13:11] <annevk> I like https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16026
  338. # [13:12] <annevk> someone who's arguing on behalf of users/developers for who the level of indirection of CSS is too hard
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  367. # [14:36] <annevk> MikeSmith: progress events has no bug component
  368. # [14:37] <annevk> maybe that's okay, but for consistency...
  369. # [14:41] <zcorpan> Hixie: i tried editing a status box. it said error 500
  370. # [14:42] <hsivonen> "Where, then, is the multi-million dollar advertising campaign for Fennec?" http://infrequently.org/2012/02/misdirection/
  371. # [14:43] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/progress/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  372. # [14:43] <hsivonen> interesting point of view from someone who is working on a product that bootstrapped its success using Safari's vendor prefixes and UA string
  373. # [14:43] <hsivonen> as if Mozilla and Opera had the kind of advertising budgets Chrome seems to have
  374. # [14:44] <annevk> there was all kinds of wrong with that post
  375. # [14:44] <hsivonen> yes
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  377. # [14:44] <annevk> but I've lost interest in arguing with people
  378. # [14:44] <hsivonen> vendor prefixes are full of 386
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  383. # [14:52] <annevk> okay Progress Events is fully moved now
  384. # [14:52] <annevk> thanks MikeSmith
  385. # [14:52] <annevk> if anyone notices bugs I can fix them again
  386. # [14:54] <StoneCypher> hsivonen: i can't disagree with him more about css and documents
  387. # [14:54] <smaug____> hsivonen: welcome back
  388. # [14:55] <StoneCypher> hsivonen: css is god's gift to documents, if-f you can force a high quality reader (eg through compile to pdf)
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  395. # [15:06] <hsivonen> smaug____: thanks
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  399. # [15:12] <[tm]> annevk: will add a bug component for progress events when i get back to my laptop
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  401. # [15:14] <annevk> cheerios
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  410. # [15:24] <karlcow> hsivonen: and sencha touch comment is going down the inception rabbit hole by taking the stance of a User experience monoculture, and then bashing the other platforms to not follow exactly the main one.
  411. # [15:25] <StoneCypher> i love how sencha touch thinks it isn't a flash in the pan
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  414. # [15:28] <hsivonen> karlcow: the Web devs who say things along the lines of "I like vendor prefixes, because they let me target the engines I choose" aren't really making a persuasive argument against Mozilla/Opera/MS implementing -webkit- stuff
  415. # [15:28] <hsivonen> karlcow: but I bet many of them (not necessarily the sencha commenter) don't seem to realize this
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  418. # [15:30] <StoneCypher> typical apple
  419. # [15:30] <StoneCypher> screech about the evil that microsoft does for ten years, then imitate it for ten more
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  421. # [15:30] <hsivonen> StoneCypher: Apple has done things according to the CSS WG policy
  422. # [15:30] <hsivonen> StoneCypher: and then they've evangelized their product
  423. # [15:31] <hsivonen> StoneCypher: they submitted specs for their stuff, too
  424. # [15:31] <StoneCypher> yeah, there's more to apple than how they interact with whatwg
  425. # [15:31] <hsivonen> (except text-size-adjust, but that's a sidetrack)
  426. # [15:31] <hsivonen> the "Apple is evil" meme is missing the point
  427. # [15:31] <StoneCypher> 1) that's not what a meme is
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  429. # [15:31] <StoneCypher> 2) i'm not using any stereotypes, despite your attempt to pigeonhole me into one
  430. # [15:31] <hsivonen> the vendor prefixing policy is fundamentally flawed, because it leads to this sort of thing
  431. # [15:31] <StoneCypher> 3) don't tell me that what i'm saying is missing your point; i wasn't speaking to your point
  432. # [15:32] <StoneCypher> i'm.
  433. # [15:32] <StoneCypher> not.
  434. # [15:32] <StoneCypher> talking.
  435. # [15:32] <StoneCypher> about.
  436. # [15:32] <StoneCypher> vendor.
  437. # [15:32] <StoneCypher> prefixing.
  438. # [15:33] <StoneCypher> nevermind. you're not interested in what other people are saying; you'll just keep telling me i'm missing the point as long as i'm not talking about what you're talking about.
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  440. # [15:33] <hsivonen> StoneCypher: sorry. what were you referring to?
  441. # [15:34] <StoneCypher> do you remember when apple tried to have microsoft broken up by the department of justice?
  442. # [15:34] <StoneCypher> there were three big reasons
  443. # [15:34] <StoneCypher> all three now apply to apple's voluntary choices, even though they never applied to microsoft.
  444. # [15:34] <StoneCypher> i'm just pointing out that apple is the villain they've always pretended that microsoft is.
  445. # [15:35] <StoneCypher> 1) forcing applications to go through a vendor store at a vendor set price
  446. # [15:35] <StoneCypher> 2) controlling more than 10% of the hardware deployment
  447. # [15:35] <hsivonen> StoneCypher: actually I don't remember Apple trying to have Microsoft broken. Did they ask the DoJ to do that?
  448. # [15:35] <StoneCypher> about a dozen times.
  449. # [15:35] <hsivonen> I do remember Apple folks testifying
  450. # [15:35] <StoneCypher> this is why nobody understands apple
  451. # [15:35] <StoneCypher> they don't know a damn thing about it
  452. # [15:36] <StoneCypher> apple's got a litigious history that makes the RIAA look downright reasonable
  453. # [15:36] <StoneCypher> they're a bunch of monsters
  454. # [15:43] <karlcow> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Microsoft_Corporation
  455. # [15:44] <hsivonen> karlcow: that case didn't ask MS to be broken up, did it?
  456. # [15:45] <karlcow> hsivonen: nope, I'm searching for references. I didn't infer anything on the nature
  457. # [15:45] <karlcow> of the link
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  459. # [15:46] <hsivonen> I'd be curious to see a reference for Apple asking the DoJ to break up MS.
  460. # [15:47] <karlcow> yup I was looking for it
  461. # [15:47] <hsivonen> (not suggesting that they didn't ask. just curious for [citation needed])
  462. # [15:47] <karlcow> I don't see it here eithe rhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._litigation
  463. # [15:49] <karlcow> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft
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  465. # [15:49] <karlcow> still no obvious references to Apple
  466. # [15:50] <mk___> hello all - I've done a quick search of the mailing list and I can't figure out what happened re: forms and URI templates
  467. # [15:50] <mk___> was that officially denied as a feature request or did the discussion just die out ?
  468. # [15:52] <mk___> .. I'm not looking to discuss it here I'm just trying to figure out what the status with it is :)
  469. # [15:52] <zcorpan> can you find it here? http://www.whatwg.org/issues/
  470. # [15:53] <mk___> thanks, I'll have a look
  471. # [15:54] * zcorpan can't find it using google on the static version
  472. # [15:54] <zcorpan> if you find it there, it means Hixie hasn't got to it yet
  473. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-November/016985.html looks relevant
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  475. # [15:56] <zcorpan> "url--awaiting-work-from-abarth--timeout-end-q3-2011"
  476. # [15:59] <mk___> which is the right mailing list to use these days?
  477. # [15:59] <mk___> or do you just cross-post to both ?
  478. # [16:00] <hsivonen> mk___: no crossposting
  479. # [16:00] <zcorpan> if you want to whine about the process, use public-html
  480. # [16:00] <hsivonen> mk___: the whatwg list for real work. the W3C list for raising ISSUES per the Decision Process
  481. # [16:00] <zcorpan> if you want to discuss technical matters, use whatwg :-)
  482. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> mk___: www-tag
  483. # [16:01] <mk___> public-html sounds wack yo!
  484. # [16:02] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xml-er/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  485. # [16:02] <mk___> fight the powa.
  486. # [16:03] <zcorpan> annevk: nice
  487. # [16:03] <mk___> MikeSmith: www-tag ? you mad bro ?
  488. # [16:03] <hsivonen> annevk: cool
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  491. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> annevk: component for pgoress events added
  492. # [16:09] <annevk> thanks
  493. # [16:09] <annevk> added to the draft
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  496. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> just made http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps-bugzilla/
  497. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> bugzilla firehose for webapps bugz
  498. # [16:28] <annevk> nifty
  499. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> gets search engine love now
  500. # [16:29] <MikeSmith> it had been set up to go to member-webapi-cvs@w3.org
  501. # [16:30] <annevk> ah yeah, forgot about that
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  507. # [17:12] <karlcow> A monoculture life http://www.flickr.com/photos/alanahmontreal/6907109137/
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  514. # [17:27] <hsivonen> manu1: btw, the bugs I filed on HTML+RDFa can't cause backwards compat issues with processing existing content, because I didn't ask for processing model changes
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  522. # [17:39] <manu1> b/c issues would relate to document conformance between XHTML1+RDFa and XHTML5+RDFa documents...
  523. # [17:40] <kennyluck> mk___, there's also a Bugzilal bug for this → https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11361
  524. # [17:40] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@cpe-76-90-232-115.socal.res.rr.com)
  525. # [17:41] <manu1> so, you're right - there would be no b/c issues w/ the processing algorithm... but there would be b/c issues between XHTML1+RDFa and XHTML5+RDFa... (primarily because authors won't understand the nuanced difference between the two and would expect their XHTML1+RDFa documents to continue to "conform" under XHTML5+RDFa.
  526. # [17:42] <manu1> I think we could make a technical argument that XHTML1+RDFa can be different from XHTML5+RDFa (based on document conformance)... but that nuance will be lost on authors, I imagine.
  527. # [17:42] <manu1> The technical argument would go something like this: Since RDFa was never defined for XHTML5+RDFa, there are no backwards incompatible issues by not allowing @href on all elements.
  528. # [17:43] <manu1> (but then, as I said a few hours ago, conformance differences for @href/@rel/@rev between XHTML1+RDFa and HTML5+RDFa will confuse authors)
  529. # [17:45] <manu1> (leading me to the conclusion that we should not allow those attributes as conforming in RDFa Lite 1.1, and warn strongly against using @href/@rel/@rev on elements that traditionally didn't allow those attributes in RDFa 1.1 Full via validator warnings)
  530. # [17:46] <manu1> ... understanding, of course, that the solution isn't acceptable to you. :)
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  548. # [18:16] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, please ask webkit devs to email to www-dom instead of changing the spec when they complain in their bugzilla, we don't want to encourage that behaviour further
  549. # [18:17] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, they CC'd Anne and me.
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  551. # [18:17] <AryehGregor> I don't see any reason to require them to do more than contact the editors for tiny things like this.
  552. # [18:17] <annevk> what was this?
  553. # [18:17] <AryehGregor> They pointed out the spec was wrong, I'm not going to say I'm going to leave the spec wrong until they e-mail www-dom.
  554. # [18:17] <AryehGregor> annevk, https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=78887
  555. # [18:18] <AryehGregor> If I thought it needed discussion, I'd have e-mailed www-dom myself, but I don't think it did -- the spec says the parameter defaults to true, IE and WebKit default to false, Gecko and Opera make it non-optional.
  556. # [18:19] <annevk> that was an intentional change from WebKit actually
  557. # [18:19] <annevk> because false is useless default
  558. # [18:19] <annevk> so yeah, prolly better to email the list first
  559. # [18:19] <AryehGregor> Is it really worth breaking compat with IE/WebKit, especially if WebKit doesn't seem willing to change?
  560. # [18:19] <AryehGregor> cloneNode(false) isn't useless. It depends what you're doing with it.
  561. # [18:19] <annevk> this is IE10...
  562. # [18:20] <AryehGregor> If you want me to revert it, I will.
  563. # [18:20] * AryehGregor checks in compat modes
  564. # [18:20] <annevk> yeah I'd prefer that
  565. # [18:20] <annevk> at least until things are a bit more clear; I didn't realize IE had optional arguments
  566. # [18:20] <AryehGregor> Yay, my Windows 8 VM always freezes and bogs down.
  567. # [18:20] <AryehGregor> Great advertisement for the OS.
  568. # [18:21] * AryehGregor will check what IE does in compat modes before reverting
  569. # [18:21] <StoneCypher> mine's fine
  570. # [18:22] <AryehGregor> Awesome. Some antimalware thing was using all its CPU.
  571. # [18:22] <AryehGregor> Very handy.
  572. # [18:22] <AryehGregor> Since it's a VM with nothing installed on it and no files I care about.
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  574. # [18:23] <StoneCypher> huhu
  575. # [18:27] <AryehGregor> annevk, IE10 Developer Preview treats the argument as null defaulting to false even in IE7 browser mode, quirks document mode.
  576. # [18:27] <AryehGregor> So it looks like old behavior.
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  579. # [18:27] <AryehGregor> It doesn't seem worth changing the default here from what IE/WebKit have apparently done for years, IMO.
  580. # [18:27] * AryehGregor solicits Ms2ger's opinion too
  581. # [18:29] <Ms2ger> I'm not convinces that default-to-false is better than mandatory in this case
  582. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> Well, mandatory is okay by me too.
  583. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> I don't see the value in making up a totally new behavior.
  584. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> Because authors won't be able to rely on it for a long time, and we have no reason to think IE or WebKit will actually change.
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  586. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> As a general rule, I'm against requiring stuff in specs that goes against all browsers unless the browsers actually want to change.
  587. # [18:31] <annevk> we made a similar change already
  588. # [18:31] <annevk> for where the false-ness was not liked either
  589. # [18:32] <annevk> importNode()
  590. # [18:32] <annevk> and importNode and cloneNode should do the same
  591. # [18:33] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that's definitely true, they should be consistent.
  592. # [18:34] <annevk> it's only optional in webkit because of some legacy stuff they had
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  594. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> Ooh, Gecko/WebKit treat that as true by default and IE/Opera make it mandatory.
  595. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> The plot thickens.
  596. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> I'll revert.
  597. # [18:35] * Ms2ger mumbles about the mess that is the DOM
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  600. # [18:46] <hsivonen> manu1: XHTML 1.1 docs aren't conforming HTML5 docs anyway. and in any case, claiming that RDFa 1.1 needs to keep RDFa 1.0 conforming is a Stop Energy tactic that prevents any sort of fixing of design failures in RDFa 1.0
  601. # [18:46] <AryehGregor> Why do mail archives not update immediately? Is it really such a hard problem?
  602. # [18:47] <hsivonen> manu1: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2011Mar/0199.html
  603. # [18:48] <StoneCypher> AryehGregor: it was in the 70s when they were invented
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  626. # [20:06] <AryehGregor> jgraham, . . . are you planning to accept my pull request at some point?
  627. # [20:06] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  628. # [20:07] <AryehGregor> Also: why am I not surprised that WebKit refuses to consider budging on cloneNode()?
  629. # [20:07] <AryehGregor> They seem to practically never be willing to change to match other browsers or the spec if there's any chance they can hold out with their current behavior . . .
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  632. # [20:19] <StoneCypher> AryehGregor: because apple only cares about standards as a marketing ploy?
  633. # [20:19] <AryehGregor> StoneCypher, who said anything about Apple? Apple doesn't control WebKit.
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  635. # [20:19] * StoneCypher blinks. "isn't webkit apple's adaptation of khtml, like dolphin is nokia's?"
  636. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> It's an open-source project.
  637. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> Google has as much influence as Apple these days.
  638. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> Other companies do too, like Nokia, Adobe, . . .
  639. # [20:21] <StoneCypher> ah.
  640. # [20:21] <AryehGregor> Originally, yes, it was just Apple's.
  641. # [20:21] <AryehGregor> Not for several years now.
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  643. # [20:24] <gsnedders> AFAIK Apple/Google practically have veto power over stuff, though
  644. # [20:25] <AryehGregor> Probably, but not just Apple.
  645. # [20:26] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: FWIW, most of the stop energy for mutli-VM bindings was from Apple
  646. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> Multi-VM bindings?
  647. # [20:26] <gsnedders> They can still stop stuff that Google wants in.
  648. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> Google does what in that case, moves the code it wants to Chromium?
  649. # [20:26] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Add the possibilities to bind multiple VMs within the environment, so JS and Dart is what Google wanted.
  650. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> Ah.
  651. # [20:27] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: They tend to try and avoid divergence, though what exactly happens in such disputes normally I don't know
  652. # [20:27] <gsnedders> AFAIK normally they just discuss/comprimise.
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  654. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> I've been told they have no formal decision-making or dispute-resolution process.
  655. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> Which seems a bit crazy.
  656. # [20:29] <gsnedders> That's my understanding too.
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  665. # [20:54] * AryehGregor wonders if his posts to www-style on prefixes are worth it
  666. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> gsnedders or someone: is there a list somewhere of what properties Opera will transition?
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  668. # [20:57] <Hixie> a lot of people seem to be registering <meta> names that are specific to their tool and not intended for interoperation with other software
  669. # [20:57] <Hixie> i wonder if we should address that use separately
  670. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> Yay, it's not documented for IE.
  671. # [20:57] <StoneCypher> isn't that the purpose of meta?
  672. # [20:57] <StoneCypher> i thought it was basically #pragma
  673. # [20:58] <Hixie> well the purpose of registering values is to prevent different software packages from using the same name
  674. # [20:58] <StoneCypher> oh, i missed that you were talking about registration
  675. # [20:58] <StoneCypher> looking for ideas, or looking to nail down conflicting existing behaviors?
  676. # [20:58] <Hixie> but if the software packages are scoped to a particular domain, it doesn't make much sense to have to register the term to protect it against an identical term used by software for another domain
  677. # [20:59] <StoneCypher> big if
  678. # [20:59] <StoneCypher> wordpress violates that if
  679. # [20:59] <StoneCypher> runs on a bunch of domains, and on domains running other things
  680. # [21:00] <Hixie> by "domain" i mean more the term in the mathematical sense of "defined space"
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  682. # [21:01] <StoneCypher> oh
  683. # [21:01] <Hixie> if wordpress and mediawiki both use a meta value for internal purposes, it doesn't matter if they clash
  684. # [21:01] <Hixie> so we shouldn't be requiring that they register the terms
  685. # [21:01] <StoneCypher> might. they share extensions.
  686. # [21:01] <Hixie> anyway
  687. # [21:01] <Hixie> just an observation
  688. # [21:01] <StoneCypher> so
  689. # [21:01] <StoneCypher> i am against registration, for the record
  690. # [21:01] <Ms2ger> |(HTMLElement? or long)| or |(HTMLElement or long)?|?
  691. # [21:01] <StoneCypher> on grounds that i don't find it to be practical
  692. # [21:01] <StoneCypher> but
  693. # [21:01] <StoneCypher> that doesn't mean registration can't be faked
  694. # [21:01] <StoneCypher> and as a mechanism it is useful
  695. # [21:02] <StoneCypher> and you get right back into the same old "give it a fake namespace with a prefix" mindset
  696. # [21:02] <StoneCypher> if that became the norm
  697. # [21:02] <StoneCypher> then you'd actually have a pretty reasonable setup
  698. # [21:02] <Hixie> the other problem with registration is it isn't stopping people who happen to use the same term as someone else with a different meaning from doing so
  699. # [21:02] <StoneCypher> allow me to play hypothetical for a moment
  700. # [21:03] <StoneCypher> we get in our time machine and set the social norm, if not the requirement, that these be in the form "packagename-key"
  701. # [21:03] <StoneCypher> so all that needs to happen is that people manage their package names (string fake namespaces)
  702. # [21:03] <StoneCypher> webkit uses webkit, wordpress uses wordpress, google tells you to use google-token for ads
  703. # [21:04] <StoneCypher> does that satisfy the kind of thing you want to think about?
  704. # [21:04] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Doubt anybody in here will know.
  705. # [21:04] <Hixie> yeah we could do something like that, like we do for data-* attributes
  706. # [21:05] <StoneCypher> that also has the advantage of not colliding (much) with current practice
  707. # [21:05] <AryehGregor> It seems to not include marginLeft, and IE doesn't do textIndent or most other useful stuff, so I can't find a test-case that will work in all browsers for the issue I just found.
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  715. # [21:11] <Ms2ger> Hrm, AllowAny
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  717. # [21:13] <Ms2ger> annevk, yt?
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  720. # [21:19] <annevk> Ms2ger: yeah
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  722. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> annevk, xhr.send()
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  724. # [21:20] <Ms2ger> There's an overload that takes DOMString?, but the string case doesn't seem to handle null
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  726. # [21:22] <annevk> not handle null?
  727. # [21:22] <annevk> do you mean in prose or IDL?
  728. # [21:25] <Ms2ger> Prose
  729. # [21:25] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#the-send()-method
  730. # [21:25] <annevk> "If the data argument has been omitted or is null, do not include a request entity body and go to the next step."
  731. # [21:27] <annevk> maybe i'll make it send(optional (ArrayBuffer or Blob ...)? data) at some point
  732. # [21:27] <annevk> not sure if that's worth it though
  733. # [21:28] <Ms2ger> Er, oops
  734. # [21:28] <Ms2ger> annevk, probably is: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15986
  735. # [21:31] <mk___> thanks for pointing me to that kennyluck
  736. # [21:34] <annevk> Ms2ger: bug looks complex
  737. # [21:34] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  738. # [21:34] <annevk> Ms2ger: hopefully someone explains it at one point
  739. # [21:34] <Ms2ger> The conclusion seems to be that we can get rid of overloading
  740. # [21:35] <Ms2ger> And just have a map from the number of arguments to the right signature
  741. # [21:39] <annevk> so you would have to write test(X, A); test(X, B) as test(X, (A or B))
  742. # [21:39] <Ms2ger> Yes
  743. # [21:39] <annevk> are there any cases outlawed?
  744. # [21:40] <Ms2ger> I dunno
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  747. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> annevk, none that anyone's found in actual specs. In theory yes, e.g. foo(long a, boolean b) plus foo(Node a, float b) or something.
  748. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> In those cases you'd have to do foo((long or Node) a, (boolean or float) b) and enforce the extra restrictions in prose.
  749. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> In practice that seems not to happen.
  750. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> heycam|away compiled a list of all the overloading he could find in real specs, and it all works with this simplified overloading.
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  753. # [21:52] <annevk> extra restrictions in prose is nasty
  754. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> It's not needed for any known example.
  755. # [21:53] <annevk> but yeah, that would seem like pretty poor API design
  756. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> Cases where it would be needed are probably -- right.
  757. # [21:53] <annevk> so maybe that should not be allowed anyway
  758. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> It would only happen if you had the type of one argument restrict the type of another argument.
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  760. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> It's a significant WebIDL simplification, so if there are weird cases where we need an extra line of prose, it seems justified.
  761. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> The current situation requires arguments' types to be evaluated sometimes to determine which overloaded operation to use, and that's bad if evaluating the argument has side-effects.
  762. # [21:55] <Ms2ger> Oh
  763. # [21:55] <annevk> yeah sounds fair enough
  764. # [21:56] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, did bz email you about testing left-to-right evaluation of arguments?
  765. # [21:56] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, yes.
  766. # [21:56] <AryehGregor> That was what spawned that whole bug.
  767. # [21:56] <Ms2ger> Great
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  777. # [22:28] <matjas> “Also, the author is some kind of hipster bastard? No one uses XHTML since 2010? are you kidding?” — http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/px67c/using_css_without_html/c3t52vr
  778. # [22:29] <StoneCypher> 's been longer than that
  779. # [22:31] * matjas takes pride in being called a hipster bastard
  780. # [22:31] <Hixie> hardly anyone has ever used xhtml...
  781. # [22:32] * matjas has, and still feels bad for it
  782. # [22:33] * matjas unkills kittens
  783. # [22:34] * Ms2ger has been there
  784. # [22:36] <Philip`> Unfortunately the laws of thermodynamics state that every time you unkill a kitten, God kills a kitten
  785. # [22:37] <StoneCypher> Hixie: that essay of yours is a big part of why
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  788. # [22:38] <Hixie> StoneCypher: hopefully
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  791. # [22:43] <Ms2ger> Weren't the CSSWG chairs going to shut down useless threads?
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  795. # [22:49] <gwicke> hello, I am wondering about the current state of multiple itemtype support in microdata. As far as I know only a single itemtype is currently reported using the DOM, and similarly indexed by search engines. Are there any plans to associate absolute-url itemprops with secondary itemtypes based on url prefixes?
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  799. # [23:04] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  800. # [23:04] <Hixie> gwicke: to your question, the answer is not currently; what's your use case?
  801. # [23:05] <gwicke> one would be marking up template arguments in wikipedia
  802. # [23:05] <gwicke> I am currently working on a new wiki parser, and we are using HTML DOM as our internal data model
  803. # [23:06] <gwicke> there is also a visual editor in development, that is supposed to allow WYSIWYG editing
  804. # [23:06] <gwicke> the idea is to use microdata to mark up template expansions to allow inline editing
  805. # [23:06] <Hixie> why can't you do inline editing without microdata?
  806. # [23:06] <gwicke> at the same time templates are quite structured, and also semantically interesting
  807. # [23:07] <Hixie> i don't understand what microdata is giving you here
  808. # [23:08] <gwicke> many users are interested in getting at template parameters, and we figured we might as well use the same mechanism for both the editor and semantic information
  809. # [23:08] <Hixie> i don't really understand who your consumers are
  810. # [23:08] <Hixie> i mean, why bother marking this up at all?
  811. # [23:09] <gwicke> for the editor, we would like to edit arguments to some infobox right in the expanded infobox template
  812. # [23:10] <gwicke> infoboxes are these boxes that are often displayed for towns, plants etc
  813. # [23:10] <gwicke> they mostly contain data such as number of inhabitants etc
  814. # [23:10] <gwicke> which makes them interesting for data extraction
  815. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> Ooh, anti-Google attack post by MS on IEBlog. Fun stuff. Wonder what Google will respond.
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  817. # [23:10] <Hixie> gwicke: ok but for the editor that's trivial. you just put a class name on the element that holds the value, and boom, that value is editable.
  818. # [23:11] <Hixie> gwicke: my question is what is the software doing the extraction?
  819. # [23:11] <gwicke> right now there are projects like http://mappings.dbpedia.org/index.php/How_to_edit_the_DBpedia_Ontology
  820. # [23:12] <gwicke> they need to parse the source to get at any template information
  821. # [23:12] <bga> is there :contains() selector. I know that is evil but i want it for usercss. For gecko only is accepted
  822. # [23:12] <gwicke> so the idea is to make it easier or them to get at parameters, and potentially also map some parameters to names in a known vocabulary
  823. # [23:13] <gwicke> ..which is where the second itemtype would come in
  824. # [23:13] <Ms2ger> bga, no
  825. # [23:13] <heycam> hsivonen, the breaking out of svg did happen. I had just forgotten the reason for certain tags breaking out and others not.
  826. # [23:13] <Hixie> gwicke: i don't understand why you'd need more than two properties, one to say "this is the name of the attribute" and one to say "this is the value"
  827. # [23:13] <bga> Ms2ger thanks
  828. # [23:13] <Hixie> gwicke: i suppose you could hard-code the accepted names, in which case you could have one property per value
  829. # [23:13] <Hixie> gwicke: and not mark up the names
  830. # [23:14] <Hixie> gwicke: but then why would you need more than one vocabulary?
  831. # [23:14] <gwicke> each template has a different set of named parameters
  832. # [23:14] <Hixie> gwicke: just put them all in the same vocabulary
  833. # [23:14] <Hixie> gwicke: same itemtype=""
  834. # [23:14] <Hixie> gwicke: since it doesn't seem you're getting any value out of the itemtype="" anyway
  835. # [23:15] <gwicke> that would not help to expose the semantics though
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  837. # [23:15] <Hixie> gwicke: the semantics is the "attributes", no?
  838. # [23:16] <gwicke> the idea was that an infobox about an event for example could be mapped to the schema.org vocabulary for an event
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  840. # [23:16] <Hixie> wait, why schema.org? you told me your consumer was a dbpedia tool
  841. # [23:17] <gwicke> the idea is to make it searchable to
  842. # [23:17] <Hixie> ok let's start over
  843. # [23:17] <gwicke> dbpedia is one project, but there are others
  844. # [23:17] <Hixie> what are all the use cases for what you're doing
  845. # [23:17] <gwicke> data mining and editing basically
  846. # [23:18] <Hixie> those aren't use cases, they're buzzwords :-)
  847. # [23:18] <gwicke> ok ;)
  848. # [23:18] <Hixie> i mean concretely, what is it you expect an actual user to do
  849. # [23:18] <gwicke> I think the editor portion is quite clear, and not critical for the microdata stuff
  850. # [23:19] <gwicke> but we'd like to expose the same information to search engines using a standard vocabulary where it makes sense
  851. # [23:19] <gwicke> which will likely be a subset of template parameters per itemtype
  852. # [23:19] <Hixie> sounds like "english" would be a suitable vocabulary for what you've described
  853. # [23:19] <Hixie> no need for microdata
  854. # [23:20] <gwicke> template arguments are things like years, number of inhabitants etc
  855. # [23:20] <gwicke> imo there is some benefit in getting at that information in an automated way
  856. # [23:21] <Hixie> i'm trying to work out what that benefit is... so far you've just said "search", but search engines seem to handle searching wikipedia fine
  857. # [23:21] <Hixie> so it's not clear to me what problem you're trying to solve
  858. # [23:22] <gwicke> most of the structured information is hard to use currently
  859. # [23:23] <gwicke> sure, search engines have heuristics, but you cannot directly extract structured data
  860. # [23:24] <gwicke> and we have to mark that stuff up for editing anyway- so why not expose it in a standard way
  861. # [23:24] <Hixie> english is a standard way :-)
  862. # [23:24] <Hixie> so your use case is e.g. to have Microsoft's Bing team extract data from Wikipedia pages and then... do what with it?
  863. # [23:25] <gwicke> whatever- build some ontology to improve search results,..
  864. # [23:25] <gwicke> right now you can already do that, but it requires a lot of effort
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  867. # [23:26] <Hixie> this seems like a very poorly-defined problem
  868. # [23:26] <Hixie> i'm not sure what to suggest
  869. # [23:26] <gwicke> so do you think we should not use microdata at all for some reason?
  870. # [23:26] <StoneCypher> my interpretation of what hixie said is "you haven't defined this problem well enough yet"
  871. # [23:26] <StoneCypher> not "this tool is wrong because"
  872. # [23:27] <gwicke> ok
  873. # [23:27] <Hixie> gwicke: without knowing exactly what you're trying to do, i don't know what would be a good answer
  874. # [23:27] <Hixie> gwicke: put it another way
  875. # [23:27] <gwicke> well- I can't define the data extraction uses more concretely as I don't know what it will be used for
  876. # [23:27] <Hixie> gwicke: how could you tell if you have succeeded in doing what you're trying to do?
  877. # [23:27] <StoneCypher> that's a problem if you want a computer to do things for you
  878. # [23:27] <Hixie> gwicke: how do you plan to evaluate your project's success?
  879. # [23:28] <gwicke> for the editor, we can either mark it up as data- attributes, or as microdata
  880. # [23:28] <gwicke> both have about the same amount of overhead
  881. # [23:28] <gwicke> so we don't care
  882. # [23:29] <gwicke> but external users could use microdata a bit easier than some weird data- attributes, so any use would be a success in my book
  883. # [23:30] <Hixie> external users wouldn't be technically allowed to use your data-* attributes
  884. # [23:30] <Hixie> the whole point of data-* attributes is that they're for internal use only
  885. # [23:30] * gwicke nods
  886. # [23:30] <gwicke> but we want this stuff to be easily available
  887. # [23:30] <Hixie> it _is_ easily available
  888. # [23:31] <gwicke> except not for automated tools
  889. # [23:31] <Hixie> google is an automated tool, and as a user i find it does pretty well at finding the wikipedia page i want when i ask it for one
  890. # [23:31] <Hixie> i'm not saying your goal is a bad goal, just that it's underdefined
  891. # [23:32] <Hixie> my earlier question is serious -- how do you plan to evaluate your project's success?
  892. # [23:33] <gwicke> I think we are in agreement that stuffing this information in data- attributes is not such a good idea
  893. # [23:34] <gwicke> so for me it would be a success if we can expose this information to the public without incurring much overhead in markup or processing time
  894. # [23:34] <StoneCypher> that isn't really measurable.
  895. # [23:34] <Hixie> ok. done. you have exposed the information already.
  896. # [23:34] <Hixie> 100% success with zero additional effort!
  897. # [23:34] <Hixie> :-)
  898. # [23:35] <gwicke> well - we are constantly asked 'how do I get the arguments for this or that template?'
  899. # [23:35] <Hixie> aha
  900. # [23:35] <gwicke> there are some heuristics using css classes and so on, but that is all a hack
  901. # [23:35] <gwicke> others start to parse the source, see dbpedia
  902. # [23:36] <Hixie> ok well solving _that_ problem is easy
  903. # [23:36] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@154-93.80-90.static-ip.oleane.fr)
  904. # [23:36] <Hixie> just mint a new URL for each attribute
  905. # [23:36] <Hixie> and don't bother with itemtype="" at all
  906. # [23:37] <Hixie> you don't even need to use microdata for that
  907. # [23:37] <Hixie> just put the URLs you mint as class names on the elements you want to have machine-readable
  908. # [23:37] <Hixie> doesn't even have to be URLs, you can just document unique class names
  909. # [23:37] <Hixie> like org.wikipedia.countries.population
  910. # [23:38] <gwicke> we need the template name and the association of arguments with template transclusions for the editor
  911. # [23:38] <gwicke> so the item / microdata model fits that aspect quite well
  912. # [23:38] <gwicke> we also have a need for something like itemref
  913. # [23:39] <gwicke> as many templates don't expand to a single DOM subtree
  914. # [23:39] * Quits: hij1nx (~hij1nx@207.239.107.3) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  915. # [23:39] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@207.239.107.3)
  916. # [23:39] <Hixie> ok so then just have itemtype="http://wikipedia.org/template", and then mint a new URL for each attributne
  917. # [23:40] <gwicke> we were thinking about using http://wikipedia.org/Template:Foo as the itemtype
  918. # [23:40] <Hixie> no need for unique item types as far as i can tell from what you've said
  919. # [23:40] <Hixie> why?
  920. # [23:40] <Hixie> what problem does it solve?
  921. # [23:41] <gwicke> the template determines the semantics of its parameters
  922. # [23:41] <gwicke> there is normally an informal description at that location, which could also be formalized in the future
  923. # [23:41] <gwicke> we would also like to display special widgets for some templates
  924. # [23:42] <Hixie> if you use unique strings for each attribute, then you'll never have any clashes, so you can just have the unique strings determine the semantics of the parameters
  925. # [23:42] <gwicke> and we could use type information for generic editor widgets
  926. # [23:42] <Hixie> microdata doesn't do anything with widgets
  927. # [23:43] <Hixie> oh you mean in the editor
  928. # [23:43] <StoneCypher> Hixie: you're on css councils, right?
  929. # [23:43] <Hixie> StoneCypher: never heard of it
  930. # [23:43] <StoneCypher> no i just mean councils having to do with css
  931. # [23:43] <StoneCypher> i don't know the proper name of the css standards committee
  932. # [23:43] <Hixie> oh the css working group?
  933. # [23:43] <gwicke> Hixie: yes, we could use parameter semantics to help the editor
  934. # [23:43] <StoneCypher> i suppose, yes
  935. # [23:44] <Hixie> StoneCypher: i think technically i'm a member but i haven't actually participated in years
  936. # [23:44] <StoneCypher> how come css doesn't have what other languages call inheritance yet? there have been like a dozen tools invented to deal with that, each more awful than the last.
  937. # [23:44] <StoneCypher> and yes, i know css uses taht word for something different
  938. # [23:45] <Hixie> gwicke: then yeah, i'd say use an absolute URL per template as the itemtype="" so that the editor knows what UI to use for that template, and use absolute URLs for each attribute, so you can reuse attributes across types and so that there's no need to rely on the type for them.
  939. # [23:45] <annevk> StoneCypher: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-hierarchies/
  940. # [23:45] <Hixie> StoneCypher: css also doesn't have what other languages call classes, so there's nothing to inherit to and from
  941. # [23:46] <Hixie> StoneCypher: but what annevk said
  942. # [23:46] <StoneCypher> Hixie: well that's not exactly difficult to solve
  943. # [23:46] <StoneCypher> annevk: ... orly.
  944. # [23:46] <StoneCypher> oh
  945. # [23:46] <StoneCypher> no, this is just LESS reified
  946. # [23:46] <StoneCypher> and not even very well :(
  947. # [23:47] <StoneCypher> it loses most of what makes LESS almost-work
  948. # [23:47] <StoneCypher> namely concrete specifiers, variables and calculations
  949. # [23:47] <StoneCypher> this enforces a heirarchy for inheritance which is neither useful nor desirable
  950. # [23:47] <StoneCypher> this is just syntactic sugar
  951. # [23:48] <zcorpan> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-variables/
  952. # [23:48] <zcorpan> variables are also syntactic sugar though
  953. # [23:48] <zcorpan> calculations, is that like calc()?
  954. # [23:48] <StoneCypher> variables are useful
  955. # [23:48] * Joins: pablof (~pablof@c-98-207-157-89.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  956. # [23:48] <StoneCypher> it serves the same purpose as calc() but in a far less horrible way
  957. # [23:49] <StoneCypher> admittedly still horrible
  958. # [23:49] <StoneCypher> but less so
  959. # [23:49] <annevk> #read-text etc. does not mention anything about quirks mode
  960. # [23:49] <zcorpan> what's concrete specifiers?
  961. # [23:49] <StoneCypher> basically constants
  962. # [23:49] <gwicke> Hixie: if we go that route, then we can't add for example an additional schema.org itemtype to templates where most parameters correspond to a standard vocabulary
  963. # [23:49] <StoneCypher> i mean it's not exactly a constant because it's subject to selectors
  964. # [23:49] <StoneCypher> but
  965. # [23:49] <annevk> StoneCypher: you want http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/
  966. # [23:49] <StoneCypher> annevk: no, i don't
  967. # [23:50] <StoneCypher> if i did i'd be there, thanks though
  968. # [23:50] <annevk> almost nobody here works on CSS
  969. # [23:50] <gwicke> so we have to choose between an internal itemtype or an external one
  970. # [23:50] <StoneCypher> and yet there's a discussion at hand.
  971. # [23:50] <StoneCypher> no need to purposefully derail it.
  972. # [23:50] <zcorpan> annevk: doesn't the parser set the mode?
  973. # [23:50] <Hixie> gwicke: i don't understand what you mean
  974. # [23:50] <StoneCypher> zcorpan: reading
  975. # [23:50] <Hixie> gwicke: first, why would you add schema.org? what problem does that solve? and second, why couldn't you use both?
  976. # [23:50] <annevk> zcorpan: not sure I want it to be quirks mode is what I mean I guess
  977. # [23:51] <StoneCypher> zcorpan: yeah, this is pretty similar to concrete specifiers. works differently but serves the same goal.
  978. # [23:51] <zcorpan> annevk: don't all browsers use quirks mode?
  979. # [23:51] <gwicke> Hixie: lets say a template displays an event and its parameters mostly map to some schema.org event vocabulary
  980. # [23:51] <Ms2ger> Gecko might not
  981. # [23:52] <gwicke> then it would be nice to make this information available using that schema.org itemtype
  982. # [23:52] * Ms2ger is too tired to remember the details of the conversation he had about that
  983. # [23:52] <gwicke> afaik we can only specify a single itemtype in the current spec
  984. # [23:52] <gwicke> but can add absolute-url names for itemprops
  985. # [23:52] <annevk> zcorpan: yeah maybe
  986. # [23:52] <StoneCypher> zcorpan: is it too early to know whether this spec is likely to take hold?
  987. # [23:53] <gwicke> so we would have two names for most itemprops, and a single one where the property does not map to schema.org
  988. # [23:53] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.63.183) (Quit: nn)
  989. # [23:53] <gwicke> the 'secondary' itemtype would be the wikipedia one in that case
  990. # [23:53] <Hixie> gwicke: the spec says you can have multiple types in itemtype="" so long as they are all the same vocabulary
  991. # [23:54] <Hixie> gwicke: if you're using absolute URLs for all your itemprops, then it's easy to do that, since your vocabulary would technically be empty
  992. # [23:54] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  993. # [23:54] <gwicke> the names unfortunately differ
  994. # [23:54] <Hixie> gwicke: just say that the wikipedia itemtype=""s actually use the schema.org vocabulary
  995. # [23:54] <Hixie> gwicke: and then never use those values
  996. # [23:54] <Hixie> gwicke: but you didn't answer my main question, which is "what problem does that solve"
  997. # [23:55] <zcorpan> StoneCypher: i guess it could be not-implemented in browsers for another few years, but clearly it's something many authors want
  998. # [23:55] <Hixie> gwicke: if it's wikipedia we're talking about, you can just do your own vocabulary, i'm sure the browser vendors would support it
  999. # [23:55] <Hixie> gwicke: s/browser vendors/search engine vendors/
  1000. # [23:55] <Hixie> gwicke: at which point having schema.org stuff in there as well would just be confusing
  1001. # [23:56] <StoneCypher> zcorpan: also my head keeps pretending you're a 3d printer
  1002. # [23:56] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@193-64-22-144-nat.elisa-mobile.fi) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1003. # [23:56] <gwicke> search engines can always put the resources in to get at the information
  1004. # [23:56] <zcorpan> StoneCypher: i've heard about that one
  1005. # [23:56] <gwicke> but ideally it would be so easy that some researcher could get at it just as easy as google or some other organization
  1006. # [23:56] <zcorpan> StoneCypher: fortunately i predated it by years, iirc :-)
  1007. # [23:57] <StoneCypher> but you were going to fab things for me and put AN at the end
  1008. # [23:57] <gwicke> so that is the problem we are trying to solve
  1009. # [23:58] <Hixie> gwicke: "some researcher" can use your vocabulary though right? so why use schema.org?
  1010. # [23:58] <zcorpan> hmm, turns out i didn't predate zcorp. at least not my nick.
  1011. # [23:59] <StoneCypher> ten dollars says you change your name to ShapeWaysan
  1012. # [23:59] <gwicke> Hixie: mainly to tie into a more general schema, that does not change with each template
  1013. # [23:59] <gwicke> there are multiple templates that might map to the same schema.org type
  1014. # Session Close: Tue Feb 21 00:00:01 2012

The end :)