/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-02-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Feb 24 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [00:38] <rniwa> annevk5: hi
  13. # [00:39] <rniwa> annevk5: what do you feel about disallowing mutation events inside the shadow DOM?
  14. # [00:39] <rniwa> annevk: ^
  15. # [00:40] <smaug____> sounds ok to me
  16. # [00:40] <rniwa> smaug____: great.
  17. # [00:40] <smaug____> (which ever shadow dom spec ends up being implemented)
  18. # [00:41] <rniwa> smaug____: well we're talking about thi on https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79278
  19. # [00:41] <rniwa> smaug____: I think dglazkov likes the idea
  20. # [00:41] <rniwa> smaug____: so as long as people from other vendors want them to fire there, we should spec it so that only new mutation observer API can be used inside the shadow DOM
  21. # [00:42] <smaug____> sounds ok. Ofc "there" is still not defined :)
  22. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> rniwa: Mutation events carry too much unwipeable info about the shadow, so yeah, they shouldn't escape the shadow.
  23. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> And shutting down mutation listeners entirely inside of shadow sounds totally fine.
  24. # [00:43] <rniwa> TabAtkins: great.
  25. # [00:43] <smaug____> I guess the idea is to not have mutation events at all in shadow dom
  26. # [00:43] <rniwa> TabAtkins: we're going to do the both
  27. # [00:43] <smaug____> which is what I prefer
  28. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> (I don't think the outer page should ever want to know about mutations inside of shadows anyway.)
  29. # [00:43] <rniwa> TabAtkins: so there won't be any mutation event in the shadow DOM
  30. # [00:43] <rniwa> mutation events need to die anyway
  31. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> smaug____: Within a shadow, mutation observers can be useful I guess.
  32. # [00:44] <smaug____> mutationobservers sure, but they are limited to shadow tree
  33. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> Yes, okay, so we're agreeing. ^_^
  34. # [00:44] <smaug____> yes :)
  35. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> Also: should I eat another whole box of Thin Mints? (yes)/(hell yes)
  36. # [00:44] <smaug____> whatever the shadow dom will be, mutation events shouldn't fire there
  37. # [00:45] <rniwa> smaug____: is your email address at welho.com?
  38. # [00:45] <smaug____> uh, no, please
  39. # [00:45] <smaug____> it is one of my email addresses
  40. # [00:45] <rniwa> smaug____: okay, which one should I use to cc you on public-webapps?
  41. # [00:45] <smaug____> I prefer Olli@pettay.fi
  42. # [00:45] <rniwa> smaug____: okay, will do.
  43. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> I keep forgetting that you're Olli, smaug____ .
  44. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> Damn lack of Real Names.
  45. # [00:46] <smaug____> TabAtkins: you've been here too few years :)
  46. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> It's taken me a while to remember that Zewt is Glen.
  47. # [00:46] <rniwa> smaug____: okay, I sent an email out to public-webapps
  48. # [00:46] <rniwa> smaug____: but it seems like we're already on an agreement here :D
  49. # [00:46] <rniwa> smaug____: disallowing mutation events in shadow DOM may even encourage people to start using new mutation observer API
  50. # [00:46] <rniwa> smaug____: which is a win-win for us
  51. # [00:47] * smaug____ should finalize his mutationobserver patch next week
  52. # [00:47] <smaug____> and sorry, I've been really busy with other stuff
  53. # [00:50] <smaug____> rniwa: do you happen to have fuzz tester for mutation observer?
  54. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> We're not fuzzing it yet (I think), but apparently it's quite easy to add.
  55. # [00:52] <smaug____> not fuzzing yet? expect some instability then :)
  56. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> Oh, definitely.
  57. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> We should be fuzzing, like, 5000% more.
  58. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> Fuzz ALL the things.
  59. # [00:52] <smaug____> yeah
  60. # [00:53] <smaug____> writing good fuzzers is not easy
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  62. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> We apparently have a pretty nice fuzzing infrastructure that our security people put together.
  63. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> You feed it a bunch of wide-sprectrum representative tests, it mutates them into fuzz tests.
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  66. # [01:03] <rniwa> smaug____: we have been.
  67. # [01:03] <rniwa> smaug____: aklein will probably know.
  68. # [01:04] <smaug____> ok, I'll send some email
  69. # [01:04] <rniwa> smaug____: we have an automated fuzz testing infrastructure that automatically mutates existing tests and generate crazy js tests
  70. # [01:04] <rniwa> smaug____: don't think we save results though
  71. # [01:04] <rniwa> so not sure if we can share those with you guys
  72. # [01:04] <smaug____> ah, ok
  73. # [01:05] <rniwa> smaug____: but it's probably worth shooting an email anyway
  74. # [01:05] <rniwa> smaug____: we might come up with some way to do it
  75. # [01:06] <rniwa> dglazkov: yt?
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  78. # [01:08] <rniwa> arv: as far as I read the spec, the spec doesn't provide anyway to get selection inside the shadow DOM ;(
  79. # [01:08] <rniwa> :'(
  80. # [01:08] <rniwa> arv: meaning that we can't implement any editing widgets inside the shadow DOM
  81. # [01:08] <smaug____> selection inside shadow dom is tricky
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  84. # [01:09] <smaug____> what if user starts outside, then tries to continue selection to inside shadow dom
  85. # [01:09] <rniwa> smaug____: it shoudln't allow it
  86. # [01:09] <smaug____> gecko just doesn't allow that
  87. # [01:09] <rniwa> smaug____: I don't think selection that crosses shadow boundary makes much sense
  88. # [01:09] <rniwa> smaug____: it should act as if there's editing boundary
  89. # [01:10] <smaug____> well, it depends
  90. # [01:10] <smaug____> if UI looks like it should be selectable, it is quite strange for user to not be able to select it
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  92. # [01:12] <smaug____> IIRC mozilla bugzilla hass bugs open because of this
  93. # [01:12] <smaug____> s/hass/has/
  94. # [01:12] <smaug____> (the bugs might become wontfix)
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  104. # [02:07] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: The general reason to put stuff on the prototype is because then you only have a single function object, not n function objects for n objects
  105. # [02:08] <gsnedders> Esp. when JIT'd code is linked to function objects, that's important. A bit less so in the built-in function object case.
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  108. # [02:10] <gsnedders> rniwa, if you read logs, too
  109. # [02:10] <gsnedders> and AryehGregor ^^
  110. # [02:14] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Yeah, I agree that's the reason normally.
  111. # [02:16] <gsnedders> In this case it's mainly making it easier to override the behaviour, by replacing a single function, and not having needless function objects eating memroy
  112. # [02:17] <TabAtkins> In that case I'm back to wondering why the getters/setters establish own properties.
  113. # [02:17] <gsnedders> This is in WebIDL?
  114. # [02:17] <gsnedders> Or what?
  115. # [02:17] <gsnedders> Because there's no reason for that to be.
  116. # [02:18] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  117. # [02:18] <TabAtkins> The WebIDL getter/setter extended operations establish own properties.
  118. # [02:18] <gsnedders> (__proto__ will be an accessor property (i.e., a property with a getter and/or setter) on Object.prototype in ES6, probably)
  119. # [02:18] <gsnedders> (For example)
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  134. # [03:04] <erlehmann> helo again
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  186. # [07:32] <rniwa> AryehGregor: are you there?
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  235. # [09:47] <RobbertAtWork> multiple selections can be used to programmatically deselect readonly parts of the users selection
  236. # [09:47] <RobbertAtWork> cc: AryehGregor
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  240. # [09:55] <hsivonen> http://botornot.net/project/test correctly identifies @whatwg as a bot with human tendencies
  241. # [09:56] * Parts: Tumulte (~Tumulte@corp-gw.accelance.net)
  242. # [09:59] <annevk> should do some replies then!
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  244. # [10:05] <zcorpan> annevk: automated replies?
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  259. # [10:55] <annevk> well I do the retweets manually already
  260. # [10:56] <annevk> but I think the policy is to do replies from personal accounts
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  264. # [11:00] <annevk> ok, so now in Gecko cloneNode defaults to true
  265. # [11:04] <annevk> I filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16102 on removing DOMStringList from Microdata
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  267. # [11:05] <bga> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2012/02/17/sub-pixel-rendering-and-the-css-object-model.aspx
  268. # [11:06] <annevk> is Clipboard.types no longer defined anywhere?
  269. # [11:06] <annevk> I guess that is now DataTransfer.types?
  270. # [11:06] <annevk> because if we also change Document.styleSheetSets and Indexed DB, DOMStringList can be removed from the platform
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  274. # [11:13] <annevk> oh, I think glenn put cssom-view in public domain
  275. # [11:13] <annevk> sweet
  276. # [11:13] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/cssom-view/rev/d977913408be
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  279. # [11:14] <annevk> anyone here still subscribed to www-style who can lobby for removing DOMStringList usage from CSSOM?
  280. # [11:14] * Joins: foolip (~philip@node-7lfbarczhfg6qsa4i.a0.ipv6.opera.com)
  281. # [11:14] <annevk> Document.styleSheetSets uses it
  282. # [11:14] <annevk> should just become an array
  283. # [11:15] <zcorpan> annevk: don't need to be subscribed to send email to www-style
  284. # [11:16] <annevk> it's easier for potential follow up though
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  289. # [11:16] <zcorpan> just send from noreply@annevankesteren.nl and set reply-to: www-style@w3.org :-)
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  307. # [11:47] <annevk> zcorpan: meh, ok done
  308. # [11:47] <annevk> zcorpan: though not like that
  309. # [11:49] <Ms2ger> Didn't we just get pywebsocket installed on w3c-test?
  310. # [11:50] <jgraham> Yes, but there are still open questions about that
  311. # [11:50] <jgraham> e.g. is it actully safe to run when it clearly says in the source that itsn't
  312. # [11:50] <jgraham> *it isn't
  313. # [11:52] <Ms2ger> Since you know about this, reply to Kris please? :)
  314. # [11:53] <jgraham> and say what?
  315. # [11:53] <annevk> is there some kind of holiday going on btw?
  316. # [11:53] <annevk> or are people just getting tired of twitter?
  317. # [11:53] * jgraham hopes for that latter, expects the former
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  331. # [12:35] <Taggnostr> if I want to report bugs about the HTML5 standard, should I select "HTML WG" as "product"?
  332. # [12:48] <Ms2ger> Sure
  333. # [12:49] <Taggnostr> I hope I got everything right: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16106
  334. # [12:49] * Taggnostr moves on with the next bug
  335. # [12:50] <Ms2ger> lgtm
  336. # [12:51] * jgraham doesn't like lgtm because it it too close to lmgt
  337. # [12:51] <jgraham> As in "Let Me Google That for you"
  338. # [12:51] <Ms2ger> Lockeed Martin Global Telecommunications?
  339. # [12:52] <Taggnostr> there's also lgbt, but that's another thing
  340. # [12:57] * Quits: othree (~othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  341. # [13:00] <Taggnostr> is "Validator (Nu)" the right product for bugs about http://livedom.validator.nu/ ?
  342. # [13:00] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@pool-71-184-234-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
  343. # [13:01] <Ms2ger> I think so
  344. # [13:01] <Taggnostr> ok, thanks again
  345. # [13:04] * Joins: othree (~othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw)
  346. # [13:08] <Taggnostr> I think I'll wait a reply to #16106 before opening the next one
  347. # [13:08] <Ms2ger> Heh
  348. # [13:08] <Ms2ger> Don't expect one before July or so
  349. # [13:08] * Joins: skylamer` (cgskylamer@78.90.213.55)
  350. # [13:09] <Taggnostr> is Hixie on holiday?
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  353. # [13:11] <Ms2ger> Just lots of outstanding feedback that's before you in the queue: http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html
  354. # [13:18] <Taggnostr> I think most of the ranges I listed in #16106 should return U+FFFD instead of returning the corresponding character
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  359. # [13:38] <Ms2ger> Woo, -moz-box-shadow and -moz-border-radius-* are dead
  360. # [13:40] <Philip`> Taggnostr: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/ is the right place for validator.nu bugs, I believe
  361. # [13:41] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: yay!
  362. # [13:41] <Ms2ger> (Apple, take notice)
  363. # [13:44] <jgraham> Ms2ger: ha ha ha
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  367. # [13:54] <annevk> maybe I should subscribe to apps-discuss
  368. # [13:54] <annevk> it's rather amusing
  369. # [13:55] <annevk> Taggnostr: that's going to be wontfixed
  370. # [13:55] <annevk> Taggnostr: we cannot change what code point is going to be returned
  371. # [13:56] <annevk> Taggnostr: we could make it not be a parse error potentially
  372. # [13:56] <Taggnostr> not even if the unicode standard says that's wrong?
  373. # [13:56] <Ms2ger> Maybe search the spec for "willful violation"
  374. # [13:57] <annevk> Taggnostr: does it actually say that?
  375. # [13:57] <annevk> Taggnostr: Unicode is quite flexible
  376. # [13:57] <Ms2ger> Does WebKit support css3multicol unprefixed already?
  377. # [13:58] <Taggnostr> annevk, see the quotes at http://bugs.python.org/issue12729#msg143392 (the context is a bit different, but they are relevant here)
  378. # [13:59] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@203.196.177.156) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  379. # [13:59] <Taggnostr> most of those ranges are "noncharacters"
  380. # [14:00] <Taggnostr> but even there is not clear what it should be done
  381. # [14:01] <kennyluck> hmm… "If a noncharacter is received in open interchange, an application is not required to interpret it in any way. It is good practice, however, to recognize it as a noncharacter and to take appropriate action, such as replacing it with U+FFFD replacement character, to indicate the problem in the text."
  382. # [14:01] <Taggnostr> it's suggested in a few places that they should be replaced with FFFD, but in others basically says that the application can do other things
  383. # [14:01] <kennyluck> I have the feeling that nobody is going to implement this for the utf-8 decoder.
  384. # [14:01] <Ms2ger> Bah, vague specs
  385. # [14:02] * Viduthalai is now known as vidu
  386. # [14:02] <annevk> Taggnostr: this is not about encodings or interchange formats
  387. # [14:02] <annevk> Taggnostr: this is just about what ends up in your tree, it's perfectly acceptable that any code point can end up there, even if it's not a character
  388. # [14:03] * Quits: izhak (~izhak@213.87.240.113) (Remote host closed the connection)
  389. # [14:03] <Taggnostr> but FFFD is used for other ranges, e.g. for surrogates ("Otherwise, if the number is in the range 0xD800 to 0xDFFF or is greater than 0x10FFFF, then this is a parse error. Return a U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER.")
  390. # [14:04] <Taggnostr> I wonder if the decoder behaves in the same way as the character reference when a noncharacter is found
  391. # [14:05] <annevk> currently some reserved code points are being put out by some encodings
  392. # [14:05] <annevk> at least per http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  393. # [14:05] <annevk> not everything is defined yet though
  394. # [14:09] <annevk> http://www.extremetech.com/computing/119571-mozilla-partners-up-with-lg-to-combat-apple-and-google-with-its-own-device
  395. # [14:10] <Taggnostr> I think that if a codepoint is forbidden during regular decoding, it should be forbidden for character references too
  396. # [14:11] <annevk> JavaScript nor the DOM work that way, not sure it makes sense for HTML to be any different
  397. # [14:13] <Taggnostr> maybe they should be fixed too (assuming that this is a real bug)
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  400. # [14:16] <annevk> we cannot change that
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  408. # [14:47] <Velmont> sicking: Mozilla doesn't support lowerBoundOpen, fact or false?
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  410. # [14:49] <woef> Weird question, but can you have two <header>s within an <article> or <section>?
  411. # [14:51] <Ms2ger> What's lowerBoundOpen?
  412. # [14:51] <Velmont> Ms2ger: Woops, IndexedDB, sorry :-)
  413. # [14:52] <Velmont> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndexedDB/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#widl-IDBKeyRange-lowerBound-static-IDBKeyRange-any-bound-boolean-open
  414. # [14:52] <annevk> woef: i don't think it's forbidden
  415. # [14:52] <sicking> Velmont: outright lie
  416. # [14:52] <woef> Cool.
  417. # [14:52] <sicking> Velmont: :)
  418. # [14:53] <woef> Need it for a bad use case, but wireframes are already validated -_-
  419. # [14:53] <Velmont> sicking: Heh. OK. -- You see, I'm trying to understand how it works. And the implementation doesn't agree with me.
  420. # [14:53] <Velmont> (it seems, barring any bugs in my testing).
  421. # [14:54] <Velmont> [1, 2, 3] -> openCursor(lowerBound(1), false) would iterate 2 and 3. openCursor(lowerBound(1), true) would iterate 1, 2 and 3.
  422. # [14:54] <AryehGregor> RobbertAtWork, by "multiple selections" you mean "multi-range selections"? They definitely have use-cases, but they're evil anyway and we don't want them.
  423. # [14:55] <Velmont> sicking: Am I right in that? -- If so, I'm a bit at loss, because Mozilla seems to return the same no matter what I set "open" to do.
  424. # [14:55] <sicking> Velmont: i guess we might have bugs somewhere. Do you have a testcase?
  425. # [14:55] <RobbertAtWork> yeah that's what I meant, and that's fine with me
  426. # [14:56] <Velmont> sicking: Yep, - it's kinda in the middle of everything though, I can either make a small one, or I can upload what I've got now. It's part of a test suite.
  427. # [14:56] <Ms2ger> Upload it :)
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  429. # [14:57] <sicking> Velmont: please file a bug in our bugzilla and attach a testcase. Should be an easy fix
  430. # [14:57] <sicking> Velmont: though if you want i can have a looksee at the testcase first
  431. # [14:58] <sicking> Velmont: huh?
  432. # [14:59] <sicking> Velmont: you mean openCursor(IDBKeyRange.lowerBound(1, false)), right?
  433. # [14:59] <sicking> Velmont: i have no idea what syntax you're using above
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  435. # [15:00] <sicking> Velmont: also, i think you're getting the meaning of 'open' switched around
  436. # [15:01] <Velmont> sicking: http://test.s0.no/idb/extra/idbcursor-advance.htm
  437. # [15:02] <Velmont> Right now it's at the default (which should be false), but I've also tried with "cupcake", false, and true, -- still the same error, expecting pancake but getting cupcake.
  438. # [15:03] <sicking> Velmont: the default is false, which means that the range is inclusive
  439. # [15:04] <sicking> Velmont: i.e. the current testcase you have looks wrong to me
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  441. # [15:04] <sicking> Velmont: i would expect "cupcake" to be the first result
  442. # [15:04] <Velmont> OK, but having true still gives me pancake
  443. # [15:05] <sicking> Velmont: true should give pancake
  444. # [15:05] <sicking> Velmont: false should give cupcake
  445. # [15:06] <sicking> Velmont: using default should give cupcake
  446. # [15:07] <sicking> Velmont: so "OK, but having true still gives me pancake" doesn't sound like a bug to me
  447. # [15:08] <Velmont> sicking: I mean still gives me cupcake :-( I'm getting all confused what with all the cakes
  448. # [15:08] <Velmont> sicking: I changed it to true now, -- and still fails.
  449. # [15:09] <Velmont> Said like this: it always gives cupcake no matter what I write as open argument.
  450. # [15:09] <sicking> Velmont: your code is incorrect
  451. # [15:09] <sicking> .openCursor(IDBKeyRange.lowerBound("cupcake"), true);
  452. # [15:09] <sicking> should be
  453. # [15:09] <sicking> .openCursor(IDBKeyRange.lowerBound("cupcake", true));
  454. # [15:09] <Velmont> fsck
  455. # [15:10] <Velmont> OK. Good. Then I only have my understanding of the open-ness inverted. :-)
  456. # [15:11] <sicking> Velmont: you're welcome ;-)
  457. # [15:11] <annevk> wait in what way would the DRM proposal help with privacy?
  458. # [15:11] <annevk> I guess with laughable hsivonen meant bullshit?
  459. # [15:12] <annevk> hey sicking, kill DOMStringList! kill kill kill
  460. # [15:12] <sicking> i don't even remember what it is
  461. # [15:12] <sicking> oh, in indexeddb?
  462. # [15:12] <sicking> annevk: is DOMString[] equivalent?
  463. # [15:12] <sicking> annevk: i.e. does it return a live object?
  464. # [15:13] * sicking doesn't particularly care about liveness, but needs something well defined
  465. # [15:13] <annevk> sicking: if you say it's live it's live
  466. # [15:14] <sicking> annevk: so it's not the same as a JS-array containing DOMStrings then?
  467. # [15:14] <smaug____> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/wer/archive/2011/08/03/why-you-should-use-xmlhttprequest-asynchronously.aspx is interesting
  468. # [15:14] <smaug____> 8.4% is a lot
  469. # [15:14] <annevk> sicking: what is not the same?
  470. # [15:15] <annevk> sicking: DOMStringList is not necessarily live either, it all depends on what you say about it when you use it
  471. # [15:15] <annevk> DOMString[] can be both static and live afaik
  472. # [15:16] <sicking> annevk: a JS-Array can't be live
  473. # [15:16] <sicking> annevk: since we can't prevent mutations
  474. # [15:17] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@66.207.208.98)
  475. # [15:17] <annevk> Web IDL has readonly []
  476. # [15:17] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#idl-array
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  480. # [15:21] <annevk> yeah so you get arrays with limitations: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-array
  481. # [15:25] * Joins: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB165F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  482. # [15:28] <Velmont> sicking: Hmmm. Reading the attribute lowerOpen I get the correct meaning. --- But the lowerBound() function says the opposite...
  483. # [15:29] <Velmont> So it's trying to confuse people. I'll open a bug. :)
  484. # [15:30] <sicking> Velmont: the text looks correct to me
  485. # [15:30] <sicking> Velmont: if you pass false we set lowerOpen to false, if you pass true we set lowerOpen to true
  486. # [15:31] <annevk> sicking: a response to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2012JanMar/0823.html would be nice too
  487. # [15:31] <sicking> Velmont: and lowerOpen says that false means the value is included
  488. # [15:31] <sicking> annevk: the change looks good to me, but I'd prefer to get smaugs input
  489. # [15:31] <annevk> k i'll ask him
  490. # [15:32] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GGDCXI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  491. # [15:32] <Velmont> open - Is the lower-bound value included in the key range. Defaults to false.
  492. # [15:32] <sicking> Velmont: indeed
  493. # [15:32] <sicking> oh
  494. # [15:32] <Velmont> I'm parsing it differently :/
  495. # [15:33] <sicking> Velmont: i see, the text there is wrong yes
  496. # [15:33] <Velmont> yesssss
  497. # [15:33] <sicking> Velmont: i was looking at the definition for the lowerOpen attribute
  498. # [15:33] <Velmont> sicking: Yep, that one was correct.
  499. # [15:33] <sicking> Velmont: please file bug yes
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  502. # [15:41] <AryehGregor> What are examples of integer-valued CSS properties other than z-index?
  503. # [15:42] <AryehGregor> I'm particularly interested in animatable ones.
  504. # [15:42] <AryehGregor> Hmm, column-count.
  505. # [15:45] <StoneCypher> counters in general
  506. # [15:45] <StoneCypher> like lists
  507. # [15:45] <StoneCypher> well i guess those aren't properties
  508. # [15:45] <annevk> counter-increment and such are
  509. # [15:45] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
  510. # [15:45] <annevk> AryehGregor: line-height
  511. # [15:45] * Quits: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  512. # [15:46] <AryehGregor> annevk, that's a <number> . . .
  513. # [15:46] <annevk> counter-increment isn't
  514. # [15:46] <annevk> counter-reset
  515. # [15:47] <AryehGregor> Right, but will we ever want to animate those?
  516. # [15:47] <annevk> orphans, widows...
  517. # [15:47] <annevk> doubt it
  518. # [15:47] <AryehGregor> With mq, how can I inspect a patch that's not applied, akin to hg log -r foo?
  519. # [15:47] <AryehGregor> Er, hg log -r foo -p?
  520. # [15:48] <AryehGregor> It's not applied, so it has no revision id and non-mq commands won't work.
  521. # [15:49] * AryehGregor waits for "look in the .hg directory"
  522. # [15:50] * AryehGregor does that
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  528. # [16:05] <annevk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_formats o_O
  529. # [16:05] <StoneCypher> yeah
  530. # [16:06] <StoneCypher> sony's made a long and profitable history of custom media
  531. # [16:06] <StoneCypher> notice that their ps3 media is basically just repackaged sdhc, but it's form-factor incompatible, so they can sell it at 5x market price
  532. # [16:06] <StoneCypher> basically the same thing as memory stick, which was reorganized mmc
  533. # [16:06] <StoneCypher> that list is incomplete
  534. # [16:07] <StoneCypher> it only lists things that are solely sony
  535. # [16:07] <StoneCypher> they also did a lot of shared format work
  536. # [16:07] <StoneCypher> like cd was sony and philips magnavox
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  539. # [16:15] <Ms2ger> Lovely: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/html-version-of-ecmascript-5-now/
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  545. # [16:19] <divya> hsivonen: w.r.t tweets, my point of view was the primary goal of that interface was to tell outright if some type is definitely not playable, is that incorrect?
  546. # [16:19] <hsivonen> divya: it's mainly to give something to people who want to know what can't be known
  547. # [16:20] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: The previous issue mentioned was managing to meet the ECMA publishing guidelines while producing a good HTML copy from the same source.
  548. # [16:20] <hsivonen> divya: but your framing is correct in practice
  549. # [16:20] <Ms2ger> Prince?
  550. # [16:20] <gsnedders> And the general attitude was that changing the publishing guidelines was about as hard as W3C Process
  551. # [16:20] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: I don't know, I presume it could be done, but it might need a fair bit of preprocessing and the like to pull-off.
  552. # [16:20] <hsivonen> Prince++
  553. # [16:21] <divya> hsivonen: :)) in that case I think the api needs to be optimized for that practice, maybe/probably optimizes for the reverse case leading to even more confusion.
  554. # [16:22] <divya> hsivonen: my thought was it should be IsUnplayable() and return true or false. so we know true means it definitely cannot be played. false means needs more testing.
  555. # [16:22] <annevk> TC39 should just move into the W3C
  556. # [16:22] <Ms2ger> How about WHATWG? :)
  557. # [16:23] <annevk> there's no need for ECMA
  558. # [16:23] <annevk> Ms2ger: I reckon W3C is an easier sell, although it may have to be over Bert's dead body or something
  559. # [16:24] <akamike> WHATWGScript - sounds less like a skin condition
  560. # [16:26] * jgraham can hear it now... "You want me to program in WHATScript?"
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  563. # [16:27] <annevk> "WHATScript is crazy!" "WHATScript is crazy?" "WHATScript!" "Euh."
  564. # [16:27] <wilhelm> Too bad this isn't a task force. WTFScript would be a much more appropriate name.
  565. # [16:27] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@109.231.202.66) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  566. # [16:27] <annevk> you mean like http://whattf.org/ ?
  567. # [16:27] <gsnedders> annevk: The problem is ECMA own the spec
  568. # [16:28] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@109.231.202.66)
  569. # [16:28] <wilhelm> Yes.
  570. # [16:28] <gsnedders> And I doubt anybody wants to rewrite it.
  571. # [16:29] <jgraham> We will put AryehGregor on that just after he rewrites CSS from scratch
  572. # [16:29] <gsnedders> There's not much need to rewrite it, though
  573. # [16:30] <AryehGregor> ES5 is actually pretty good AFAICT.
  574. # [16:30] <jgraham> It's fine
  575. # [16:30] <jgraham> It's just in PDF format and owned by ECMA
  576. # [16:30] <StoneCypher> i like pdfs.
  577. # [16:30] <annevk> gsnedders: not sure that's what's holding everything back
  578. # [16:30] * slightlyoff_afk is now known as slightlyoff
  579. # [16:30] <StoneCypher> they're a reliable target for complex rendering.
  580. # [16:31] <jgraham> If only what we had was a need for complex rendering rather than a need for hyperlinks and non-sucky search
  581. # [16:31] * StoneCypher has that need.
  582. # [16:31] <StoneCypher> so
  583. # [16:31] * StoneCypher shrugs
  584. # [16:32] * Joins: PalleZingmark (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
  585. # [16:32] <jgraham> In the ECMAScript spec?
  586. # [16:32] <StoneCypher> oh. no.
  587. # [16:32] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241)
  588. # [16:32] <StoneCypher> sorry, i didn't mean "i think pdf is good for that case"
  589. # [16:32] <StoneCypher> i just like pdf.
  590. # [16:32] <StoneCypher> because it lets me print silly shit on amazon and cafepress that wouldn't be realistic otherwise.
  591. # [16:32] <annevk> gsnedders: at least I never heard that given as a reason before
  592. # [16:33] <gsnedders> annevk: It came up on es-discuss before. The reason is ECMA publishing policies. If someone wants to convert the current draft and make some stylesheet/processing that makes it follow ECMA publishing rules, then there's no objection.
  593. # [16:34] <annevk> I meant about leaving ECMA
  594. # [16:34] <gsnedders> annevk: Ah.
  595. # [16:34] <gsnedders> Well, it's a practical concern.
  596. # [16:34] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, are those policies public?
  597. # [16:34] <gsnedders> I don't know most of the real internal politics.
  598. # [16:34] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: I don't think so.
  599. # [16:34] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Certainly I've never seen them.
  600. # [16:35] <Velmont> Always helpful standards bodies.
  601. # [16:36] <RobbertAtWork> http://es5.github.com/
  602. # [16:36] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241) (Remote host closed the connection)
  603. # [16:36] <Velmont> RobbertAtWork: Can't link to that from specs.
  604. # [16:36] <RobbertAtWork> Velmont: I see
  605. # [16:37] <gsnedders> RobbertAtWork: The concern is ECMA publications, not in general.
  606. # [16:37] <hsivonen> Velmont: I bet you could link to that from html5.org or whatwg.org specs
  607. # [16:38] <AryehGregor> Velmont, I link to it from specs.
  608. # [16:38] <AryehGregor> Specifically, my Editing CG spec.
  609. # [16:38] <AryehGregor> Which is W3C-hosted, although it's not a W3C spec, or somesuch.
  610. # [16:39] <Velmont> AryehGregor: Oh great. Think it's possible to sneak it into W3C hosted specs such as IndexedDB etc also?
  611. # [16:39] <Ms2ger> Unlikely
  612. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> Velmont, it's probably not going to get into a REC-track spec without someone objecting (if they notice).
  613. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> My editing spec isn't REC-track.
  614. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> It's a CG spec.
  615. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> So I can ignore all process.
  616. # [16:41] <Velmont> Yep. Thought so :] So it would be very helpful to get a canonical, official HTML version that can be linky-linked.
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  618. # [16:41] <AryehGregor> You could give it as an informative reference.
  619. # [16:42] <AryehGregor> I assume.
  620. # [16:42] <AryehGregor> I don't think those have to be stable or "official".
  621. # [16:42] <Ms2ger> Oh?
  622. # [16:42] <StoneCypher> it's not clear to me how much chatty stuff is desired here. i stumbled across a startlingly high quality non-germane tech talk video. should i crosspaste it here?
  623. # [16:42] <StoneCypher> one of those "everybody should see this" things.
  624. # [16:42] <Velmont> What is non-germane?
  625. # [16:42] <AryehGregor> Do they?
  626. # [16:42] <AryehGregor> I don't know.
  627. # [16:42] <Ms2ger> We can't publish DOM4 with an informative reference to WHATWG HTML
  628. # [16:42] <StoneCypher> has nothing to do with whatwg
  629. # [16:43] <StoneCypher> at all
  630. # [16:43] <gsnedders> The official answer is this is a social channel, where we happen to end up talking about HTML5 a lot.
  631. # [16:43] <AryehGregor> Well, the W3C has a political ax to grind against WHATWG HTML.
  632. # [16:43] <annevk> StoneCypher: everything goes until someone asks you to stop
  633. # [16:43] <annevk> StoneCypher: I sometimes chat about grocery shopping for instance :)
  634. # [16:43] <StoneCypher> okay :) i found this mind blowing. the first five minutes are boring as hell and i almost gave up on it, but once he gets rolling, holy crap. http://vimeo.com/36579366
  635. # [16:43] <AryehGregor> StoneCypher, I suspect people will get annoyed if any given person's ratio of useful to non-useful topics gets too low.
  636. # [16:44] <StoneCypher> basically he's talking about applying a concrete specific bifurcating principle globally
  637. # [16:44] <AryehGregor> Regulars will sometimes chat about random stuff, but it's predominantly work-related.
  638. # [16:44] <StoneCypher> which sounds dreary
  639. # [16:44] <StoneCypher> but when he shows how his choice of principle started driving him to make useful new tools
  640. # [16:44] <Velmont> StoneCypher: Oh yes. I saw that a week ago. Very nice. Sent it to some friends.
  641. # [16:44] <StoneCypher> the tools he actually made are stunning to me
  642. # [16:44] <StoneCypher> just stunning
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  644. # [16:44] <StoneCypher> Velmont: i'm currently trying to figure out how to make his js live view thing for erlang
  645. # [16:45] <StoneCypher> Want So Badly (tm)
  646. # [16:46] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: I scarcely talk on topic, to be fair! :P
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  648. # [16:46] <StoneCypher> huhu
  649. # [16:46] <StoneCypher> i'll try to keep it rare.
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  651. # [16:48] <AryehGregor> StoneCypher, I admit that I personally always considered your off-topic posting to be too frequent in #mediawiki, but I have a lot less clout here than I used to there, so here it really depends more what other people think.
  652. # [16:48] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, well, you're the youngest around :)
  653. # [16:48] * AryehGregor guesses he's middle-aged in this group
  654. # [16:49] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: And it's not as if there isn't plenty else discussed here, or as if I'm not a regular who has discussed plenty of on-topic stuff before.
  655. # [16:49] <gsnedders> And I seem to be the go-to JS guy :P
  656. # [16:49] <StoneCypher> AryehGregor: ... i barely spoke in #mediawiki; i think you might have me swapped with someone else.
  657. # [16:49] <jgraham> gsnedders: We are all just scared that if we don't leave you alone you will start playing loud emo music
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  659. # [16:49] <AryehGregor> I know you barely spoke there, but I felt like it was mostly off-topic, so it annoyed me anyway. Maybe I'm easily annoyed, though.
  660. # [16:50] <StoneCypher> AryehGregor: almost the only time i talked in that channel was when I was talking to someone I'd lost touch with elsewhere
  661. # [16:50] <AryehGregor> Anyway, doesn't matter. Do as you will, don't mind me.
  662. # [16:50] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well, I think we're alone now…
  663. # [16:50] <gsnedders> Oh, wait, that's not emo.
  664. # [16:50] <gsnedders> Sorry, I'm not 14.
  665. # [16:50] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, where "we" is you and your other identity?
  666. # [16:50] <annevk> damn it gsnedders why do you grow up?
  667. # [16:51] * StoneCypher can't remember what nick they used in that channel (one of those new-nick-every-thursday types.) Kate something.
  668. # [16:51] <AryehGregor> River Tarnell, a.k.a. Kate Turner?
  669. # [16:51] <StoneCypher> yes, kate turner
  670. # [16:52] <StoneCypher> sorry, i knew river under the previous name
  671. # [16:52] <AryehGregor> A.k.a. flyingparchment, and about nine other nicks that I forget?
  672. # [16:52] <annevk> I wonder if gsnedders is still the youngest (cf http://www.flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/2964101064/ )
  673. # [16:52] <AryehGregor> River Tarnell is his real name, Kate Turner was an adopted persona.
  674. # [16:52] <StoneCypher> ah, you know he's a he
  675. # [16:52] <StoneCypher> yes, i knew him under his birth name, from before any of that started, from efnet #c++
  676. # [16:52] <gsnedders> annevk: I dunno, I'm certainly still youngest at Opera…
  677. # [16:52] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Maybe. No comment.
  678. # [16:53] <StoneCypher> it's sort of hard to know what i'm supposed to be open about with regards to him :)
  679. # [16:53] <StoneCypher> anyway
  680. # [16:53] <StoneCypher> he's brilliant if you get to know him, so finding him in #mediawiki was a blast
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  683. # [16:54] <wilhelm> annevk: The note on that picture is excellent.
  684. # [16:57] <annevk> haha
  685. # [16:57] <annevk> missed that
  686. # [16:57] <Ms2ger> Finally!
  687. # [16:58] * Velmont found an unused exercise ball and took it to his office. yay
  688. # [16:59] <Ms2ger> Be warned, Opera people
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  695. # [17:12] <annevk> https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core/changeset/193f1831efe0
  696. # [17:12] <annevk> Introduction to "The DOM"
  697. # [17:13] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#introduction-to-the-dom
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  733. # [18:55] * AryehGregor remembers that the editing spec gives him a headache
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  735. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> Far too complicated.
  736. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> Spec work is hard.
  737. # [18:55] * AryehGregor guesses he likes small, self-contained problems, but . . .
  738. # [18:56] <AryehGregor> Someone has to do it.
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  742. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> There's no easy way for a script that's submitting a big POST to gzip it, is there?
  743. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> Or otherwise compress it?
  744. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> HTTP should be able to do that transparently in theory, right?
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  761. # [19:21] <ksweeney> Not sure on the base HTTP side of things, but I remember seeing a JS library that would compress files locally before posting. Think that might rely on the File API though (not sure what your support needs are)
  762. # [19:24] <ksweeney> http://jszip.stuartk.co.uk/
  763. # [19:24] <zewt_> AryehGregor: transfer-encoding
  764. # [19:24] * zewt_ is now known as zewt
  765. # [19:24] <AryehGregor> zewt, yes, but how can you get that from JS when posting a form?
  766. # [19:25] <AryehGregor> Or can you get it with XHR but not forms? Or neither?
  767. # [19:25] <AryehGregor> ksweeney, I only need to support latest Chrome and Firefox.
  768. # [19:25] <AryehGregor> Meaning Chrome dev, and mozilla-central.
  769. # [19:25] <AryehGregor> (so different definitions of "latest" here)
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  775. # [19:45] <zewt> AryehGregor: it should just always happen if supported
  776. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> zewt, does it actually, though?
  777. # [19:45] * AryehGregor could test, of course
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  783. # [19:52] <AryehGregor> Nope, doesn't seem to happen (at least in Chrome).
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  822. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> Blech, my execCommand() test data is 4.8M. :(
  823. # [21:55] * AryehGregor should think about if it's possible to reduce that for the future . . .
  824. # [22:03] <Philip`> AryehGregor: "less .hg/patches/foo" is what I always use
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  826. # [22:14] <Ms2ger> Any Opera people around who feel like poking at DSK-358181?
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  828. # [22:19] <rniwa> AryehGregor: thanks for those spec cahnges!
  829. # [22:20] <rniwa> AryehGregor: I think we're gonna make those changes in near future :)
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  832. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> heycam|away: I didn't understand a single part of your email about named properties.
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  834. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> heycam|away: I'm not sure how I managed that.
  835. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> Wait, hm.
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  849. # [23:01] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, easy solution, document those areas :)
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  852. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Indeed.
  853. # [23:07] <Ms2ger> And thank you
  854. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Now we have another hard problem: finding time to do so.
  855. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> You're welcome, but for what?
  856. # [23:08] <Ms2ger> Fixing everything
  857. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> I haven't fixed *everything* yet. There's still world hunger.
  858. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> But I'm glad you believe in me.
  859. # [23:09] <Ms2ger> Hrm
  860. # [23:09] <Ms2ger> World hunger or the box model...
  861. # [23:09] <Ms2ger> Go for the box model, please :)
  862. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> I think there's about a billion hungry people that would disagree with you.
  863. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> But I'll probably do what you say instead.
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  876. # Session Close: Sat Feb 25 00:00:00 2012

The end :)