/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-03-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Mar 01 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:12] <Hixie> anyone know if anyone is using mozFillRule?
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  11. # [00:18] <Hixie> hmmmm
  12. # [00:18] <Hixie> instead of having pattern.offsetX and pattern.offsetY
  13. # [00:18] <Hixie> why not just put all the transformation logic into CanvasPattern
  14. # [00:18] <Hixie> so you can arbitrarily transform the pattern
  15. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> +1
  16. # [00:19] <Hixie> i guess we'd have to add an explicit .resetPattern() so that people don't have to keep calling .setTransform(...) with an identity matrix
  17. # [00:20] <Hixie> er
  18. # [00:20] <Hixie> resetTransform()
  19. # [00:25] <Hixie> heycam, shepazu: any idea whether i should be referring to svg 1.1 or 1.2 for SVGMatrix? they seem to be different.
  20. # [00:26] <heycam> Hixie, 1.1
  21. # [00:26] <Hixie> k
  22. # [00:26] <Hixie> so er
  23. # [00:26] <Hixie> where is it defined?
  24. # [00:26] <heycam> coords.html I think
  25. # [00:26] <heycam> or types.html
  26. # [00:27] <Hixie> i found the idl, and a bunch of non-normative text like the html spec's "domintro" blocks that introduces each member
  27. # [00:27] <Hixie> but i can't find the requirements
  28. # [00:27] <heycam> remember that the spec was written in a time when MUSTs weren't littered about everywhere
  29. # [00:27] <heycam> or without necessarily a lot of detail :)
  30. # [00:28] <Hixie> there's "without a lot of detail" and then there's no detail at all...
  31. # [00:28] <heycam> unfortunately the DOM parts of SVG 1.1 are often the areas that lack detail
  32. # [00:28] <Hixie> ok
  33. # [00:28] <Hixie> well
  34. # [00:28] <heycam> what specifically are you looking for?
  35. # [00:28] <Hixie> apparently i'm gonna be referring to this from the HTML spec
  36. # [00:29] <Hixie> so if you wanted something to focus on for SVG2, consider this a candidate :-)
  37. # [00:29] <heycam> ok! :)
  38. # [00:29] <heycam> are you looking for steps on what the SVGMatrix methods do? or...?
  39. # [00:29] <othermaciej> is canvas going to use SVGMatrix to represent transforms?
  40. # [00:29] <Hixie> heycam: i'm looking for something sufficiently detailed that we can make sure it's tested in the html test suite
  41. # [00:30] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah, apparently it's what mozilla does
  42. # [00:30] <Hixie> othermaciej: so i'm looking at how feasible it is
  43. # [00:30] <othermaciej> makes sense
  44. # [00:30] <othermaciej> there is also SVGTransform, I can't remember how it is supposed to be different
  45. # [00:30] <heycam> there was discussion on the FX list recently about a unified Matrix interface -- that was more merging CSSMatrix/SVGMatrix
  46. # [00:30] <Hixie> so there is
  47. # [00:30] <Hixie> heycam: yeah
  48. # [00:30] <heycam> othermaciej, SVGTransform is the list of transform items like "scale(4)" etc.
  49. # [00:31] <Hixie> ah, yeah, SVGTransform is just to represent the lexical form
  50. # [00:31] <Hixie> not to represent an actual transform
  51. # [00:31] <othermaciej> there also appears to be an SVGTransformList
  52. # [00:31] * heycam frowns at SVGMatrix.rotate() not even defining if the argument is radians or degrees or what
  53. # [00:31] <heycam> sorry
  54. # [00:31] <heycam> SVGTransform is one item
  55. # [00:31] <heycam> in an SVGTransformList
  56. # [00:31] <Hixie> SVGTransformList is the list of SVGTransforms
  57. # [00:31] <Hixie> that <svg:* transform=""> is represented by
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  59. # [00:32] <Hixie> heycam: i got stuck at the definition of "a"
  60. # [00:32] <heycam> lol
  61. # [00:33] <heycam> above the IDL it shows what a, b, c, etc. correspond to in the matrix
  62. # [00:33] <Hixie> well i can guess what might make sense to happen, sure
  63. # [00:34] <othermaciej> CSSMatrix seems to be a 3d transform
  64. # [00:34] <othermaciej> it seems useful to be a 2d-transform-specific interface
  65. # [00:34] <othermaciej> though the name difference being "SVG" vs "CSS" for 2d vs 3d isn't the world's best naming convention
  66. # [00:34] <heycam> yeah, that sucks
  67. # [00:34] <Hixie> i find it amusing that neither SVGMatrix and CSSMatrix both to define a method to reset the matrix to the identity transform
  68. # [00:35] <jamesr__> just make a new one!
  69. # [00:35] <Hixie> i wonder whether i should not bother adding such a method to the context/path/pattern interfaces and instead assume that Matrix will spawn it, or if i should just continue the design of canvas and have a method parallel to the object
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  71. # [00:36] <Hixie> christ, CSSMatrix is defined about as badly
  72. # [00:36] <othermaciej> SVGMatrix operations generally return a new matrix rather than mutating the existing one
  73. # [00:36] <Hixie> all these specs use the old DOM style of defining interface members
  74. # [00:36] <heycam> Hixie, will the canvas allow assignment of a different matrix object on to the context?
  75. # [00:36] <Hixie> single worst way to define an interface ever invented
  76. # [00:36] <Hixie> yet everyone thinks it's so cool and copies it everywhere
  77. # [00:36] <Hixie> gah
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  80. # [00:37] <heycam> what is "old DOM style"?
  81. # [00:37] <Hixie> the three nested <dl>s you see in all the old DOM specs
  82. # [00:37] <heycam> ah right
  83. # [00:37] <heycam> yeah it does take a bit too much vertical space for my liking
  84. # [00:37] <Hixie> heycam: not planing on allowing assignment currently, but i suppose we could
  85. # [00:37] <Hixie> sure, why not
  86. # [00:38] <othermaciej> I think it's generally better to apply value semantics to transform matrices, so that to alter the transform in use for something you give it a new matrix rather than attempting to mutate the one returned by a getter
  87. # [00:38] <othermaciej> a method to reset a specific matrix to the identity matrix would not be useful in that model
  88. # [00:38] <Hixie> k, external method it is
  89. # [00:39] <othermaciej> all you need is an easy way to make a fresh identity matrix
  90. # [00:39] <jamesr__> matrices are a bit on the large side to copy all the time
  91. # [00:40] <othermaciej> yeah, but having to map mutation operations to operations on some arbitrary other object that owns the matrix is also crazy
  92. # [00:41] <othermaciej> (also, for the 3x2 representation of an affine transform matrix, it's barely more expensive to copy than a rect)
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  107. # [00:55] <Hixie> heh, this e-mail's use case is making a google Wave extension
  108. # [00:55] <Hixie> problem solved!
  109. # [01:04] <Hixie> shepazu: won't be able to give feedback for d="" processing this week, will keep you posted
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  112. # [01:04] <shepazu> Hixie: ok
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  115. # [01:16] <astearns> hixie: on TextMetrics what about s/ding/t/ ? ascent and descent are the terms I'm used to, and they're shorter
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  117. # [01:17] <Hixie> "ascent font bounding box" isn't gramatically correct
  118. # [01:17] <Hixie> (ascent is a noun, not an adjective)
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  120. # [01:18] <Hixie> if it was just .ascent, or .fontBoundingBoxAscent, i guess that could work?
  121. # [01:19] <astearns> I like fontBoundingBoxAscent - also fixes the problem of *Box returning a length
  122. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> Good point.
  123. # [01:19] <Hixie> seems reasonable
  124. # [01:19] <Hixie> can you update the wiki accordingly? there's six attributes to change
  125. # [01:21] <astearns> hmm - don't see where to create an account
  126. # [01:22] <Hixie> e-mail address?
  127. # [01:22] <Hixie> (i have to create it for you)
  128. # [01:22] <astearns> stearns@adobe.com
  129. # [01:23] <Hixie> check e-mail
  130. # [01:23] <Hixie> k, i think i have gone through all the pending canvas bugs and the pending canvas e-mail
  131. # [01:23] <Hixie> i'll start going through http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Canvas#Proposals and putting all that in the spec friday
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  134. # [01:28] <astearns> done
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  138. # [01:41] <smaug____> MikeSmith: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=731516#c4
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  163. # [02:54] <MikeSmith> smaug____: thanks
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  221. # [06:07] <Hixie> astearns: thanks
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  231. # [06:30] <Hixie> what's the best way in JS to get the number out of a string in the format "123 ..." as in, numeric digits, a space character, and then anything else?
  232. # [06:30] <Hixie> split(' ', 1)?
  233. # [06:30] <Hixie> (followed by parseInt()?)
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  236. # [06:38] <miketaylr> parseInt("123 blah") should work, no?
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  240. # [06:55] <Hixie> yeah i guess that might technically work too
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  244. # [07:03] <mhausenblas> morning
  245. # [07:03] <mhausenblas> Hixie, in which time zone are you in, actually?
  246. # [07:03] <Hixie> technically PST
  247. # [07:03] <mhausenblas> technically? :)
  248. # [07:04] <Hixie> i'm much better about it now, but there was a time where my timezone really had no correlation to my online hours
  249. # [07:04] <mhausenblas> he he ... so, you're based in Mountain View?
  250. # [07:05] <Hixie> yes
  251. # [07:05] <mhausenblas> just wondering cause I don't recall a pattern when I see you here (it's 6am here in Galway)
  252. # [07:06] <Hixie> a pattern of what?
  253. # [07:06] <mhausenblas> anyways. back to fiddling with some JS - have fun
  254. # [07:06] <mhausenblas> when you're around
  255. # [07:06] <mhausenblas> online, here, etc. ;)
  256. # [07:06] <Hixie> i'm often around and not actively talking
  257. # [07:06] <mhausenblas> right
  258. # [07:06] <Hixie> and my irc client is always online (it's in norway)
  259. # [07:06] <mhausenblas> but always watching I guess :)
  260. # [07:06] <mhausenblas> ah
  261. # [07:07] <mhausenblas> one last one: where does the .ch in your domain come from
  262. # [07:07] <Hixie> .ch is switzerland
  263. # [07:07] <Hixie> i'm swiss
  264. # [07:07] <Hixie> (half swiss)
  265. # [07:07] <mhausenblas> oh
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  267. # [07:07] <jamesr> Hixie: are you swi or iss ?
  268. # [07:08] <mhausenblas> I mean, I knew that .ch is Switzerland, but didn't know you've actually some physical connection into it
  269. # [07:08] <Hixie> jamesr: i cut it horizontally, top half
  270. # [07:08] <mhausenblas> PMSL
  271. # [07:08] <Hixie> mhausenblas: yup born there. not far from cern, actually. left around the time tim was coming up with the idea for the web though. :-)
  272. # [07:09] <mhausenblas> he he - a sign!
  273. # [07:09] <mhausenblas> so you speak French?
  274. # [07:09] <Hixie> about as well as a ten year old, but yeah
  275. # [07:09] <mhausenblas> cool
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  277. # [07:10] <mhausenblas> reason being we have three children (youngest 4) and their German is getting worse and worse (we moved over to Ireland in 2009)
  278. # [07:10] <mhausenblas> so I'm always wondering what other people have experienced in that respect as I don't have any other references
  279. # [07:12] <mhausenblas> (well, besides my sister who lives in Norway, she has two children but their language mix is even worse - German, Dutch, English and now Norwegian ;)
  280. # [07:13] <Hixie> dunno what to tell you
  281. # [07:13] <Hixie> it's all about practicing
  282. # [07:13] <mhausenblas> sure
  283. # [07:13] <Hixie> my written french is atrocious
  284. # [07:14] <Hixie> and my vocab completely lacks any computer terminology
  285. # [07:14] <Hixie> but i think if i went to live in a french speaking area i'd get back up to speed relatively quickly
  286. # [07:14] <mhausenblas> fair enough, guess English is appropriate there to fill in the blanks
  287. # [07:14] <mhausenblas> yeah
  288. # [07:14] <mhausenblas> if there is a basis, the missing vocabs come over time
  289. # [07:14] <Hixie> not that that's gonna happen unless the bay area falls into the ocean
  290. # [07:15] <mhausenblas> :)
  291. # [07:15] <mhausenblas> well, maybe you wanna move to CND?
  292. # [07:15] <izhak> Wow, I have just realized, that tokenizer calls parser, not vice versa!
  293. # [07:16] <Hixie> mhausenblas: i'm not leaving the bay area unless i'm driven out by some sort of apocalypse
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  295. # [07:16] <mhausenblas> he he, fair enough. actually I envy you a bit - not because of the GOOG position, that is well deserved, but the weather ...
  296. # [07:16] <mhausenblas> it's so friggin damp and windy here
  297. # [07:17] <Hixie> the weather and the people/culture are the main factors for me
  298. # [07:17] <mhausenblas> so, when I'm a grown-up, in some 20y, I also want to work in the SF area ;)
  299. # [07:17] <mhausenblas> right
  300. # [07:17] <Hixie> plus this is where it's at as far as the industry goes
  301. # [07:17] <mhausenblas> yeah
  302. # [07:20] <mhausenblas> OMFG, luv it... http://wulffmorgenthaler.com/2012/03/01/
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  304. # [07:39] <kennyluck> sigh… I hate how centralized the industry is.
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  308. # [07:44] <zcorpan> it's nice that the chairs seem to not only not read the content of the draft they're commenting on, but also not read the content of the email they are replying to
  309. # [07:45] <zcorpan> and sam was quick to ask for a different editor, that's nice
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  331. # [08:39] <zcorpan> Hixie: did you not finish your sentence here? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16142#c6
  332. # [08:39] <Hixie> i did not. i thought i had deleted what i had written.
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  364. # [10:25] <izhak> As I know data comes in chunks from network. Does html5 speculative parser glues all the chunks to form a whole sequence of PRUnichar*, in mozilla's firefox?
  365. # [10:25] <izhak> I just can't find an entry point to mozilla's html 5 parser, to track the whole story.
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  381. # [11:26] <hsivonen> izhak: the parser has the capability to parse up to any PRUnichar boundary and suspend
  382. # [11:27] <hsivonen> izhak: first http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/parser/html/nsHtml5Parser.cpp#222 is called
  383. # [11:28] <hsivonen> izhak: the caller also obtains a pointer to nsHtml5StreamParser from http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/parser/html/nsHtml5Parser.cpp#178
  384. # [11:28] <hsivonen> (created when http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/parser/html/nsHtml5Parser.cpp#614 got called)
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  386. # [11:29] <hsivonen> izhak: then, the networking code calls nsHtml5StreamParser's OnStartRequest, OnDataAvailable (potentially many times) and OnStopRequest
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  388. # [11:31] <izhak> hsivonen: Thanks a lot! Your answer is exactly what I needed.
  389. # [11:35] <hsivonen> izhak: what are you trying to do?
  390. # [11:36] <izhak> hsivonen: I'm learning :).
  391. # [11:36] <hsivonen> ok
  392. # [11:40] <hsivonen> izhak: have you seen https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Gecko/HTML_parser_threading ?
  393. # [11:42] <izhak> hsivonen: No. Seems very helpful too.
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  403. # [11:58] <bga> small idea. make analog of innerHTML for document fragment. Many frameworks has something like div.innerHTML = html; while(v = div.firstChild) df.appendChild(v). Imho its too common task but this loop do nothing. IE already has applyElement(v, 'inside') and some impemenations support it so its will be good to just standardize this method http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms536341(v=vs.85).aspx
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  412. # [12:31] <zcorpan> has ie always had applyElement? never heard of it
  413. # [12:32] <zcorpan> although it sounds nice as a convenience feature
  414. # [12:32] <zcorpan> but it's not like innerHTML at all
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  469. # [15:55] <hsivonen> how come Opera is shipping WebGL without either requestAnimationFrame or oRequestAnimationFrame? Am I testing wrong?
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  491. # [17:10] <zcorpan> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/Overview.src.html#changes-2011-05-25 - review appreciated (non-HTML5 changes are in a comment currently)
  492. # [17:11] <zcorpan> (i haven't updated everything in the rest of the document to take teh changes into account yet)
  493. # [17:15] <miketaylr> window.onerror now supports a forth argument for column position. s/forth/fourth/
  494. # [17:18] * Parts: Wilto (u2821@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-imtamhptxwoyurwm)
  495. # [17:19] <miketaylr> "Things that use EventTarget now inherits from it instead of using "implements"." s/inherits/inherit/
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  498. # [17:20] <miketaylr> "The crossorigin attribute has been added to img, video and audio to use CORS. CORS" (extra CORS)
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  500. # [17:24] <zcorpan> the extra CORS is a reference
  501. # [17:24] <zcorpan> thanks!
  502. # [17:25] <miketaylr> np
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  524. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: should Anne be added to the DOM Parsing and Serialization spec as a co-editor?
  525. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> per https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-parsing-and-serialization/changesets
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  549. # [19:12] <bga> http://www.google.com/patents/US6732330?dq=6,405,366
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  551. # [19:16] <AryehGregor> What's the right way in CSS-ese to say "if <length> is zero or negative, treat it as a parse error"?
  552. # [19:16] <AryehGregor> Oh, I see.
  553. # [19:16] <AryehGregor> "Properties may restrict the number value to some range. If the value is outside the allowed range, the declaration is invalid and must be ignored. For unrestricted values, UAs must support at least up to ±230; unsupported values must be clamped to the closest supported value."
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  555. # [19:19] <Ms2ger> 2^30, I hope?
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  557. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> No, it's 230. Values and Units is being very conservative about hardware limitations. Everything has to fit in nine bits with breathing room.
  558. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> (also, isn't it annoying how superscript/subscript doesn't copy-paste properly from HTML to plaintext?)
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  561. # [19:21] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  562. # [19:22] <Ms2ger> Good, dglazkov
  563. # [19:22] * Parts: ksweeney (~Kevin_Swe@nyv-exweb.iac.com)
  564. # [19:22] <dglazkov> :)
  565. # [19:22] <bga> i wonder if somebody already patented css vars :/
  566. # [19:22] <TabAtkins_> Good question. The spec counts as prior art, at least.
  567. # [19:23] <TabAtkins_> I should probably submit a patent request to our legal team, though, just so we can be in the clear (and obviously offer it under the standard free w3c license).
  568. # [19:25] <dglazkov> how do you call an untrue statement in an invention disclosure?
  569. # [19:25] <dglazkov> ...
  570. # [19:25] <dglazkov> a patent lie!
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  572. # [19:26] <TabAtkins_> ...
  573. # [19:26] <Ms2ger> ...
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  575. # [19:27] <dglazkov> Also: battle-scarred HTML badger: <p>.</p>
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  582. # [19:50] <AryehGregor> What's the policy for adding new content attributes for new event types?
  583. # [19:51] <AryehGregor> There are attributes like onvolumechange in HTML.
  584. # [19:51] <AryehGregor> So if adding new content attributes fell out of favor, it must have been relatively recent.
  585. # [19:51] <Ms2ger> It fell out of favour?
  586. # [19:51] <TabAtkins> I think we just add all of them.
  587. # [19:51] <AryehGregor> Did it?
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  589. # [19:52] <AryehGregor> There are no content attributes currently specced for transition and animation events.
  590. # [19:52] <AryehGregor> So the question is, should there be?
  591. # [19:52] <TabAtkins> I think so, yes.
  592. # [19:52] * AryehGregor also thinks so, but wants more opinions before he posts to www-style
  593. # [19:52] <TabAtkins> Any event which can have an element as a target should have a corresponding content attribute.
  594. # [19:53] <AryehGregor> There's an onaddtrack IDL attribute on TextTrackList, so it must still be in vogue to add them.
  595. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> I presume it was just a consequence of this being a CSS spec and so the editors forgot.
  596. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> As opposed to all the things that get dumped into HTML or DOM.
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  622. # [21:11] <Hixie> AryehGregor: what's the use case for animation event handler content attributes?
  623. # [21:12] <Ms2ger> What's the use case for onvolumechange? :)
  624. # [21:12] <AryehGregor> Hixie, the only argument I see would be consistency.
  625. # [21:12] <Hixie> Ms2ger: updating the volume ui
  626. # [21:12] <Hixie> AryehGregor: k
  627. # [21:12] <AryehGregor> I don't see a specific use-case.
  628. # [21:12] <Hixie> there's plenty of events that don't have them
  629. # [21:13] <AryehGregor> I mean, I don't know offhand what a use-case is for animation events at all.
  630. # [21:13] <Hixie> and the implementation cost in some implementations is non-zero (depends on whether they implement them all individually or have some sort of hash for the ones that are set)
  631. # [21:14] <Ms2ger> It's non-zero for Gecko, but smaller than epsilon, I'd say
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  634. # [21:20] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Are you computing with the hyperreals or the surreals?
  635. # [21:20] <Ms2ger> Gecko, so must be surreal
  636. # [21:21] <TabAtkins> Excellent, the surreals are much more interesting anyway.
  637. # [21:21] <gsnedders> Reals are so moring.
  638. # [21:21] <gsnedders> morning? boring.
  639. # [21:21] <gsnedders> Been listening to dglazkov too much.
  640. # [21:22] <Ms2ger> Not even algebraically closed
  641. # [21:22] <TabAtkins> The surreals aren't algebraicly closed either.
  642. # [21:22] <Ms2ger> Bah
  643. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> The surcomplexes are, though, right?
  644. # [21:41] <TabAtkins> Are the surcomplexes defined?
  645. # [21:41] <Ms2ger> ow
  646. # [21:42] <Ms2ger> They are now, that is
  647. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> Ah, indeed.
  648. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> Of course, the fact that the reals aren't algebraically closed is most of what makes them *interesting*.
  649. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> The complex numbers are far simpler.
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  651. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> . . . it's kind of a misnomer.
  652. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> Hm? The fact that there is no solution to sqrt(-1) in the reals is what makes them interesting?
  653. # [21:43] <Ms2ger> You say interesting, I say annoying
  654. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> Real analysis is crazy more complicated than complex analysis, yeah.
  655. # [21:43] <Ms2ger> tomato, tomato
  656. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> They're called complex because they are *a* complex (of two numbers).
  657. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Granted, I don't think the complication makes them more interesting.
  658. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> I also think reals are much more annoying.
  659. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Things are so much easier in complex-land.
  660. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> All nonconstant polynomials have a zero. All differentiable functions are analytic. All analytic functions have a ludicrously large set of very powerful properties.
  661. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> Witness: Picard's great theorem. W. T. F.
  662. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> Or even his little theorem.
  663. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> "All entire functions are onto except possibly for one point."
  664. # [21:46] <Ms2ger> Also: well-order of the reals, wut
  665. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> You can well-order the complex numbers if and only if you can well-order the reals, no?
  666. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> I thought the reals were trivially well-orderable?
  667. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> Just on the standard < relation?
  668. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> Only if you assume full choice.
  669. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> That's not a well-ordering.
  670. # [21:47] <Ms2ger> Not trivially
  671. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> Well-ordering means every set has a least element.
  672. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> Every nonempty subset, to be pedantic.
  673. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> Gah, duh.
  674. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> Sorry.
  675. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> Like the natural numbers.
  676. # [21:48] <Ms2ger> You apparently can't even give a constructive definition of the well-order of the reals
  677. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> Countable choice isn't enough to well-order the reals.
  678. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> Well, since it requires full choice, yeah, constructive definitions are probably not going to happen.
  679. # [21:48] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GGYZKMMMDLXI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  680. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> Nor an additive nonlinear continuous function, or the Banach-Tarski paradox, or any of that good stuff.
  681. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> s/good/evil but necessary if you want any algebra to work/
  682. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> Analysis could get by just fine with countable choice, but algebra would kind of be dead.
  683. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> I mean, countable choice means that uncountable vector spaces need not have a basis. Bad.
  684. # [21:50] <Philip`> I'm sure most people in the world could get on just fine if algebra was dead
  685. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> (more precisely, vector spaces would only need have a basis if they have a countable spanning set, I guess)
  686. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> . . . well, yes, although I've heard some lame people use it for physics and cryptography and stuff instead of recreation.
  687. # [21:51] * Quits: ivan`` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
  688. # [21:51] * AryehGregor would like to mentally rehearse the proof of the equivalence of the axiom of choice, Zorn's lemma, the well-ordering principle, and the fact that every vector space has a basis, but decides that returning to billable work is a better idea
  689. # [21:52] * TabAtkins agrees that rehearsing proofs is a fun way to spend one's time.
  690. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> I used to put myself to sleep by rehearsing the reasoning behind efficient prime searches.
  691. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> Which efficient prime searches, in particular?
  692. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> Just the basic techniques to speed up a linear search.
  693. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> This was back in middle school.
  694. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> Like the sieve of Eratosthenes?
  695. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> That's the best I know, but I have some vague idea it's not considered efficient by fancy modern standards.
  696. # [21:55] <TabAtkins> Yeah, like that.
  697. # [21:55] <gsnedders> Heh — that came up in my maths lecture today.
  698. # [21:55] <TabAtkins> I didn't know fancy modern techniques back in the day.
  699. # [21:55] <gsnedders> (Both the Sieve of Eratosthenes, and other techniques)
  700. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> Does anyone have any clever ideas of how to deal with this? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15709
  701. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> No CSS specs specify anything about rounding right now, but it's kind of hard to test programmatic APIs in that case.
  702. # [21:56] <AryehGregor> Also, reftests implicitly test rounding in some cases anyway.
  703. # [21:56] <TabAtkins> But I knew why checking only things that were 1 or 5 mod 6 was efficient and hwo to improve it, or why searching for factors only up to the sqrt of your target was okay.
  704. # [21:57] * Joins: ivan`` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
  705. # [21:57] * gsnedders was given an unconvincing proof of that earlier today…
  706. # [21:58] <TabAtkins> Unconvincing proof of which?
  707. # [21:58] <gsnedders> I should probably look at it again, and probably realize I'm just being silly
  708. # [21:58] <gsnedders> 1 or 5 mod 6
  709. # [21:58] <TabAtkins> 0, 2, 3, and 4 all imply the number is divisible by 2 or 3.
  710. # [21:59] <gsnedders> Yes, but the existance of divisors greater than 6?
  711. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> Huh?
  712. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> It *only* gives a guarantee that the number is/isn't divisible by 2 or 3.
  713. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> It says nothing about any other divisors.
  714. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> 25, for example, is 1mod6.
  715. # [22:00] <gsnedders> "Every prime p >= 5 is of the form 6k±1"
  716. # [22:00] <Philip`> Sounds like an advancement on simply counting sheep - you collect six sheep at once, fan them out in six different directions, drop two thirds of them into cunningly-placed bottomless pits, and then merge the remaining streams of sheep together before applying a more complex filter and only counting the ones that remain alive at the end, and then you fall asleep
  717. # [22:00] <gsnedders> Somehow in my head I turned that around.
  718. # [22:00] * HothJohnAlbin is now known as JohnAlbin
  719. # [22:00] <gsnedders> (i.e., Every pos. int. k has some prime 6k±1)
  720. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> Oh yeah, that's clearly false.
  721. # [22:01] <gsnedders> Exactly.
  722. # [22:01] <gsnedders> I had just read a statement later in the proof that almost implies that, but it's just poor phrasing
  723. # [22:01] * Parts: teleject (~christoph@cpe-66-69-217-240.austin.res.rr.com)
  724. # [22:03] <gsnedders> Also: I'm vaguely wondering why I'm not doing joint CS and maths.
  725. # [22:04] <gsnedders> Though the real analysis my gf had for test today just scared me.
  726. # [22:05] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  727. # [22:05] <TabAtkins> I'm definitely not a math person. I could do math well enough to minor in it (you got a math minor for free if you did a BS in CompSci at my school), but no more.
  728. # [22:06] <AryehGregor> No one has input on <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15709>?
  729. # [22:06] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, I'm curious. What was it?
  730. # [22:07] <gsnedders> I could likely manage, but I didn't do the majority of maths courses this year, so that chance has passed. Linguistics and CS it is.
  731. # [22:07] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@65.93.94.10) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  732. # [22:07] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@65.93.94.10)
  733. # [22:07] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Nothing that complex in real analysis terms, but I've never really done any real analysis.
  734. # [22:07] <Ms2ger> Really?
  735. # [22:07] <Ms2ger> (Excuse the pun)
  736. # [22:07] <gsnedders> Well, okay, I've done the basic sort of things.
  737. # [22:08] <gsnedders> But some of the finding limits in test my gf had to do were well beyond me.
  738. # [22:09] * gsnedders logs on to uni website to file abscene report and will look up the learning outcomes of that course…
  739. # [22:09] * AryehGregor wants an example!
  740. # [22:09] <Ms2ger> ^
  741. # [22:10] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@65.93.94.10) (Client Quit)
  742. # [22:10] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@65.93.94.10)
  743. # [22:10] <gsnedders> In particular, students should be able to: deal with implications and equivalences; interpret the negation of a statement involving quantifiers; recognise various methods of proof (direct, contrapositive, counterexample, contradiction, induction); show that a function is bounded/unbounded; show, directly from the definition, that a given number is the limit of a given sequence; evaluate sequence limits using arithmetic and order properties; show th
  744. # [22:10] * Joins: jochen___ (jochen@nat/google/x-ksumsdtfsbpvnvpn)
  745. # [22:11] <gsnedders> (where did that get cut off?)
  746. # [22:11] * Quits: jochen__ (jochen@nat/google/x-wotaawwijaspxycx) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  747. # [22:11] * jochen___ is now known as jochen__
  748. # [22:11] <Ms2ger> order properties; show t
  749. # [22:11] <TabAtkins> "order properties; show th"
  750. # [22:11] <gsnedders> show that a given sequence is monotonic; investigate sequences defined recursively; use subsequences to establish non-convergence; test series for convergence/divergence; test series for absolute/conditional convergence; determine, directly from the definition, whether a function is continuous; use the sequential characterisation to establish discontinuity;solve problems using the intermediate value and extreme value theorems.
  751. # [22:11] <Ms2ger> Hey, you got an h too?
  752. # [22:11] <TabAtkins> My client is better!
  753. # [22:11] <Hixie> i got an h
  754. # [22:11] <Ms2ger> xchat--
  755. # [22:11] <TabAtkins> irssi++
  756. # [22:12] <Ms2ger> That doesn't sound too bad
  757. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> That sounds like a standard advanced calculus course.
  758. # [22:13] <gsnedders> It probably wouldn't seem to bad if I'd done it and been to lectures and stuff :)
  759. # [22:13] <Ms2ger> My first university calculus course was basically building up real calculus from scratch, while proving everything along the way
  760. # [22:13] * Ms2ger didn't like it either
  761. # [22:14] <gsnedders> (My gf is a chem. student, FWIW)
  762. # [22:15] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GGYZKMMMDLXI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  763. # [22:15] <gsnedders> (Originally a CS student, but struggled having done far less programming than most people in the course)
  764. # [22:15] * Quits: erichynds (~ehynds@venkman.brightcove.com)
  765. # [22:15] * Quits: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB1887.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Bye, bye! See you on http://leanbackplayer.com)
  766. # [22:16] * Joins: mattur (~mattur@host81-133-37-248.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
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  768. # [22:19] <gsnedders> I'd claim she's better than me at maths, and she'd claim the opposite. Nevertheless, both perfectly capable of it.
  769. # [22:19] * Parts: jacobg (~jacobg@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
  770. # [22:19] <Ms2ger> Heh
  771. # [22:20] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: First year maths courses here are quite easy — and huge numbers take them, because they're required for practically all subjects in the faculty of sciene.
  772. # [22:20] <Ms2ger> Mm
  773. # [22:20] <gsnedders> (Actually, for most subjects they're not compulsary, just "strongly recommended", and not doing them massively limits course choice in later years)
  774. # [22:21] <Ms2ger> Everyone here gets their own math courses
  775. # [22:21] <gsnedders> Though the perception of how easy they are is likely down to the fact that traditionally in Scotland you go to uni after five years at secondary school — one fewer than in England, but with one more year of the degree.
  776. # [22:22] <gsnedders> Most people nowadays do six years of secondary school in Scotland, to the standard needed for English universities, and have done a lot of the first year courses for science subjects.
  777. # [22:22] * JohnAlbin is now known as JohnAlbin_zzzzzz
  778. # [22:22] <gsnedders> (Arts subjects tend to be a far higher level than even sixth year of school courses, so it makes little difference there.)
  779. # [22:23] <gsnedders> I did an unusually high number of subjects of the highest level at school — trying to get into Cambridge — which probably is a lot of the reason why I found first year quite so easy.
  780. # [22:23] * Joins: gavinsmith (~gavinsmit@CPEe05fb90cc8fb-CM00222ddfdbcd.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  781. # [22:23] <gsnedders> My gf only did five years of secondary school (which admittedly I too almost did), so actually learnt quite a bit in first year.
  782. # [22:27] <gsnedders> (I turned up to a single maths lecture a week — to hand in compulsary homework, and learnt almost nothing through it. She went to all five lectures a week and learnt a lot.)
  783. # [22:28] <gsnedders> (I would've gone straight into second year had it not for doing joint linguistics and CS — the linguistics side dictated I had to do first year)
  784. # [22:28] <Ms2ger> Yay, linguistics
  785. # [22:34] <kennyluck> Speaking of math, I really hope some classic textbooks that are full of definitions such as Hartshone's algebraic geometry can be turned into something as readable as the HTML LS.
  786. # [22:35] <gsnedders> HTML LS?
  787. # [22:35] <gsnedders> Living Standard?
  788. # [22:35] <kennyluck> yeah
  789. # [22:36] <kennyluck> xrefs are really helpful.
  790. # [22:36] <Philip`> It's a shame nobody has figured out a decent way to do maths in HTML yet
  791. # [22:37] <Philip`> which is presumably limiting for maths textbooks
  792. # [22:37] <jgraham> Is MathML decent?
  793. # [22:37] <jgraham> Not hand authoring it obviously
  794. # [22:37] <jgraham> That's like slow suicide
  795. # [22:38] <Philip`> Hand authoring seems like an important consideration to me
  796. # [22:38] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@193-64-22-63-nat.elisa-mobile.fi)
  797. # [22:38] <Philip`> but maybe people in real life write maths textbooks in Word instead of LaTeX?
  798. # [22:39] <Ms2ger> Heresy!
  799. # [22:39] <jgraham> It might depend what you consider "real life"
  800. # [22:39] <Ms2ger> Outside of academia?
  801. # [22:39] <Ms2ger> Probably so
  802. # [22:39] <jgraham> Probably people who are university professors writing undergrad level textbooks use LaTex
  803. # [22:40] * Quits: skylamer` (cgskylamer@78.90.213.55) (Remote host closed the connection)
  804. # [22:40] <jgraham> But doing some-TeX-like-dialect-to-MathML is a problem that has been solved many times
  805. # [22:40] <jgraham> So probably anyone writing that kind of book would start by solving it again, differently
  806. # [22:41] <Ms2ger> It's somewhat annoying, I now cringe when I have to study from non-LaTeXed texts
  807. # [22:43] <Philip`> jgraham: "real life" is what people other than me experience
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  810. # [22:46] <jgraham> In real life one learns the way to the supermarket in < 4 years, perhaps. I'm not sure how that affects their choice of typesetting software, but does make it easier to get milk.
  811. # [22:46] <jgraham> s/their/one's/
  812. # [22:48] * Joins: AryehGregor (~Simetrica@mediawiki/simetrical)
  813. # [22:48] <Ms2ger> Relevant: http://xkcd.com/1015/
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  834. # [23:53] <hober> abarth (and whoever else cares about registerProtocolHandler): any thoughts on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-189 before I send it to public-html?
  835. # [23:54] <abarth> reading
  836. # [23:55] <abarth> looks reasonable
  837. # [23:55] <hober> ok, thanks
  838. # [23:56] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@pd95c0c71.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  839. # [23:58] <Velmont> Ah nice. -- Although I hoped it was a reply to the "deprecate register*handler in favour of webintents"
  840. # [23:59] <Velmont> I'd really like that to read, "deprecate webintents in favour of extending registerprotocolĥandler" instead. Which IMHO makes more sense.
  841. # Session Close: Fri Mar 02 00:00:00 2012

The end :)