/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-03-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 07 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> heycam: right now in the spec i'm intentionally maintaining the relative order of arc() and arcTo()
  4. # [00:01] <heycam> Hixie, that shouldn't matter -- the spec doesn't do anything with the order operations appear
  5. # [00:01] <Hixie> heycam: (though i'm not explicit about that, it's just a comment in the source to remind me not to switch them)
  6. # [00:01] <heycam> Hixie, if some implementations choose to interpret the order they appear on IDL in some way, then that's their choice :)
  7. # [00:01] <heycam> (this of course is beacuse Web IDL doesn't prescribe property enumeration order)
  8. # [00:01] <Hixie> heycam: well, if pages depend on an order, it's going to be our problem :-)
  9. # [00:01] <heycam> yeah
  10. # [00:02] <Hixie> heycam: anyway, i'm fine with not having an order if we can get away with it. just thought you should know about it.
  11. # [00:02] <Hixie> heycam: for now i'll continue to maintain the order as is in case you make it significant
  12. # [00:02] <heycam> Hixie, thanks for the pointer
  13. # [00:02] <Hixie> np
  14. # [00:02] <heycam> Hixie, I suspect we will have to define it at some point
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  21. # [00:17] <rniwa> AryehGregor: so resize css property won't work for control selection because resize property isn't applicable to replaced elements :(
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  26. # [00:37] <roc_> really?
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  29. # [00:37] <Hixie> i don't understand how the resize property is supposed to work at all
  30. # [00:38] <gsnedders> Hixie: As long WebIDL is based on ES5, I'm not sure it can ever define an order.
  31. # [00:39] * gsnedders would need to check what ES5 says about host object enumeration order tohugh
  32. # [00:39] <gsnedders> *though
  33. # [00:39] <Hixie> why ever not?
  34. # [00:39] <gsnedders> Hixie: Well, it would be contradicting something below it in the stack
  35. # [00:39] <Hixie> HTML depends on ES5 and it defines that the global scope object and 'this' aren't the same object...
  36. # [00:40] <Hixie> contradicting something below it in the stack isn't hard to do, it's just something to avoid to do if possible
  37. # [00:41] <gsnedders> Ah, no, host objects can define enumeration orders.
  38. # [00:41] <Hixie> when it's not possible, e.g. because the spec you depend on refuses to fix itself, you just override it
  39. # [00:41] <gsnedders> Hixie: Nothing was specified in ES5 because there was no consensus
  40. # [00:41] <gsnedders> Whatever it spec'd likely wouldn't have been implemented by half of the major ES engines
  41. # [00:42] <Hixie> if it ain't implemented by half the engines, then it's not required
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  44. # [00:43] <gsnedders> Hixie: Ah, no. Everyone who had deviated from the historical norm (i.e., Opera 10.50+, IE9+, Chrome) knew it caused compat breakage, but deemed it a worthwhile change.
  45. # [00:44] <Hixie> if they are able to make the change, it's not required
  46. # [00:44] <Hixie> by definition
  47. # [00:44] <gsnedders> Some people would say that having yahoo.jp work was required.
  48. # [00:44] <gsnedders> (I believe the site has since changed)
  49. # [00:45] <Hixie> if multiple browsers shipped without it working, then by definition those people are wrong
  50. # [00:45] <gsnedders> Still, given that it *did* break things, others don't want.
  51. # [00:46] <Hixie> i'm not sure what you're arguing :-)
  52. # [00:46] <gsnedders> It's hard to convince people to break legacy content, even when some already have.
  53. # [00:47] <gsnedders> And hence hard to reach consensus, when the side that has gone for the behaviour better from a perf/memory POV doesn't want to regress, and the other side doesn't want to break sites that the others already have.
  54. # [00:47] <Hixie> my only arguments here are that there are two states: either a feature is required and eveyone wants to implement that thing, in which case either the relevant spec needs to be fixed or a spec above it on the stack needs to fix it by contradicting it intentionally, or, there's not a requirement to implement the feature, in which case neither spec needs to do anything. consensus is a red herring here, unless by it you mean "agreement amongst a majority of relevant i
  55. # [00:48] <Hixie> (which is not what people usually mean by "consensus")
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  57. # [00:49] <gsnedders> Hixie: By consensus I mean amongst browser vendors
  58. # [00:50] <gsnedders> (who don't have consensus on which of the two states you gave above)
  59. # [00:51] <Hixie> by definition, if people don't agree something is required, then we're in the second state
  60. # [00:52] <Hixie> especially in this case where the second state's allowed implementations is a superset of the first state's
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  66. # [01:12] <bga> > SQL.js: SQLite Compiled to JavaScript via Emscripten
  67. # [01:12] <bga> facepalm
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  71. # [01:41] <AryehGregor> rniwa, I filed spec feedback months ago asking that that be changed. IIRC, tantek responded favorably but never did it.
  72. # [01:44] <rniwa> AryehGregor: okay.
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  75. # [01:47] <rniwa> aklein: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=80452
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  86. # [02:25] <austincheney> can somebody help explain the necessity to HTTP+AES to me?
  87. # [02:25] <austincheney> i have been reading the emails and I am not clear on the use condition
  88. # [02:25] <austincheney> HTTP is pretty simple in that there is only a request and a response and then the connection is abandoned and forgotten
  89. # [02:26] <austincheney> and the response is already encrypted if you use https
  90. # [02:26] <austincheney> this leaves the need to protect the request from interception, is that right?
  91. # [02:26] <austincheney> as in a man in the middle attack?
  92. # [02:29] <othermaciej> my understanding is that it's supposed to protect content stored on a CDN that should be kept confidential from the CDN provider
  93. # [02:29] <austincheney> then you would need to encrypt the content opposed to encrypting the transmission
  94. # [02:29] <zewt> seems like a rather shortsighted thing to bake a particular encryption algorithm right into the name
  95. # [02:30] <austincheney> i am unclear why you would want to hide the transmission of content from a CDN?
  96. # [02:31] <zewt> austincheney: i'm not familiar with that in particular, but http does support data transforms (Transfer-Encoding) which can be precalculated
  97. # [02:31] <Philip`> Would it be any harder to move to a new http+rot13:// when the algorithm changes, than to support multiple algorithms under the same protocol name?
  98. # [02:31] <zewt> well, that part seems obvious ...
  99. # [02:31] <zewt> (if you want to be able to serve private data)
  100. # [02:32] <austincheney> a CDN is a service though, and by connecting into said service you are likely obligated to let the service know about your role in resource consumption
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  102. # [02:33] <zewt> i'm certainly not obligated to give amazon access to the data i store in s3
  103. # [02:33] <austincheney> right, that is why you encrypt the data
  104. # [02:33] <zewt> which is the point, I believe :)
  105. # [02:33] <austincheney> but Amazon has every right to be aware of the transmission though
  106. # [02:33] <zewt> the provider I use to send bits has no right to know the contents of those bits
  107. # [02:34] <austincheney> right, and they won't if the content is encrypted
  108. # [02:34] <zewt> (and if some low-rent providers claim that right in seedy TOS's, then that's between the user and the provider; it's not relevant to protocol development)
  109. # [02:35] <zewt> sorry, I really have no idea what you're saying; the entire point of http+aes is an encryption mechanism, right?
  110. # [02:35] <austincheney> no
  111. # [02:36] <austincheney> its encrypting transmission opposed to encrypting content
  112. # [02:36] <Philip`> Is this meant to be for really confidential data that would cause irreparable harm if released, or for cases where an easier solution is just to sue Amazon for violating their TOS if they publicly release the private data?
  113. # [02:36] <zewt> ssl encrypts transmission
  114. # [02:36] <zewt> (url to http+aes? generic name is ungooglable)
  115. # [02:36] * Philip` hasn't read the relevant thread at all and has no idea what the context of the discussion is
  116. # [02:36] <austincheney> SSL encrypts a HTTP response
  117. # [02:37] <zewt> but the name sounds like "aes block encryption + hashes + client-side decryption key"
  118. # [02:37] <zewt> no, ssl encrypts the entire exchange
  119. # [02:37] <zewt> request and response
  120. # [02:39] <zewt> (oh, it's something already in the spec? odd, never even heard of it before)
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  122. # [02:42] <zewt> Hixie: no block hashes in http+aes?
  123. # [02:42] <zewt> austincheney: and yes, it appears to be what I said
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  129. # [02:46] <zewt> defining encryption without hashes to prevent corruption/tampering is odd--the two normally go together, the cost is very small, and it prevents weaknesses that typical users may not be aware of
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  132. # [02:52] <zewt> holy hell what just happened
  133. # [02:53] <zewt> i deleted a big block of quoted text in gmail, and it flipped two lines of quoted text upside down
  134. # [02:53] <zewt> which happened to be two lines of javascript code--confusing as hell
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  149. # [03:35] <AryehGregor> Hixie, what's the reason for using only AES for http+aes instead of doing full authenticated encryption for the response contents? Just throw in an HMAC using the same key, and then it's tamperproof as well as copy-proof.
  150. # [03:36] <Hixie> what's the use case for that?
  151. # [03:36] <AryehGregor> At basically no additional cost.
  152. # [03:36] <MikeSmith> great to finally get Apple feedback on the Notifications API
  153. # [03:38] <zewt> AryehGregor: same as what I said: <zewt> defining encryption without hashes to prevent corruption/tampering is odd--the two normally go together, the cost is very small, and it prevents weaknesses that typical users may not be aware of
  154. # [03:38] <AryehGregor> zewt, yes.
  155. # [03:38] <zewt> for example, people--not generally being encryption experts--may assume that data which is encrypted can't be modified, which isn't true if there's no validation
  156. # [03:38] <AryehGregor> Hixie, maybe you don't trust the CDN not to modify the data either.
  157. # [03:39] <AryehGregor> You need to split it into blocks somehow and HMAC each block, though, to allow streaming.
  158. # [03:39] <AryehGregor> This can probably be offloaded on some existing well-understood authenticated encryption implementation.
  159. # [03:39] <zewt> as a nice side benefit, you get verification against innocent HTTP transmission errors (not a primary use case, just a nice extra)
  160. # [03:40] <Hixie> AryehGregor: dude if you don't trust the cdn not to modify the data you have much bigger problems imho
  161. # [03:40] <zewt> Hixie: why should I trust them more than I have to?
  162. # [03:40] <zewt> (plus intermediaries, for the non-https version)
  163. # [03:41] <Hixie> realistically speaking, i've never heard of anyone who doesn't trust the cdn not to modify data
  164. # [03:41] <Hixie> i have heard of people not trusting their cdn to snoop the data
  165. # [03:42] <zewt> if the data is validated, then I don't have to trust the internet, either
  166. # [03:44] <Hixie> https already solves the internet part
  167. # [03:44] <zewt> if https could always be used, then you wouldn't have defined http+aes :)
  168. # [03:45] <Hixie> they solve unrelated problems
  169. # [03:45] <Hixie> so i don't really understand what you mean?
  170. # [03:45] <zewt> hmm?
  171. # [03:45] <zewt> why would you define http+aes, if you could always use https+aes?
  172. # [03:46] <Hixie> AryehGregor: (btw i'm not against the idea in principle. send e-mail or file a bug with concrete details and i'll take a look.)
  173. # [03:46] <zewt> it just seems like this is violating a fundamental principle of encryption: always verify the results
  174. # [03:46] <Hixie> zewt: completenes
  175. # [03:47] <Hixie> s
  176. # [03:48] <zewt> also, having a verification mechanism means you can tell if you've got a wrong password, instead of just getting random data
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  181. # [03:53] <Hixie> zewt: getting noise is a pretty good indicator that you got the wrong key...
  182. # [03:54] <zewt> not an indicator that you can report programmatically
  183. # [03:55] <zewt> wrong password should be reported as "wrong password", not "mysteriously corrupt file"
  184. # [03:56] <zewt> (eg. XHR should report an error, not happily hand you a buffer filled with random-looking bytes)
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  194. # [04:29] <Hixie> it's telling that for most proposals for html and other web specs, we get proposals from either browser vendor engineers or authors / web devs
  195. # [04:30] <Hixie> whereas this drm thing comes from a very different segment
  196. # [04:30] <zewt> (what's confusing is why anyone's even pretending to listen)
  197. # [04:31] * Parts: divya (~divya@deepak.jois.name)
  198. # [04:48] <ukai> anyone who maintain Chromium Mac Release bot? svn failure: http://build.webkit.org/builders/Chromium%20Mac%20Release/builds/32798/steps/svn/logs/stdio
  199. # [04:48] <ukai> oops
  200. # [04:48] <ukai> wrong channel
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  204. # [05:13] <StoneCypher> Hixie: in your experience, what parts of CSS do people tend to misunderstand the most?
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  208. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> related to the Encrypted Media Extensions proposal, among the requirements that should be listed out somewhere specifically is "decrypted data must not be available to Javascript"
  209. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> if that is indeed one of the requirements behind the proposal (which it seems to be)
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  212. # [05:47] <zewt> ... isn't it rather "must not be available to anything open source or not end-to-end encrypted"? heh
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  215. # [06:04] <Hixie> StoneCypher: i'm not in the loop enough to say these days. used to be th inline box model, back around 2000.
  216. # [06:04] <Hixie> StoneCypher: i once had to explain it to bert and hakon (who invented it!) ;-)
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  218. # [06:08] <Hixie> anyone know of a version of hexdump that displays things in binary instead of hex?
  219. # [06:08] <Hixie> ooh, xxd -b maybe
  220. # [06:08] <Hixie> sweet
  221. # [06:09] <StoneCypher> i got to talk to hakon once through michael day
  222. # [06:09] <StoneCypher> was fun.
  223. # [06:10] <MikeSmith> zewt: yeah, true
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  230. # [06:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/413
  231. # [06:32] <MikeSmith> "Create RelaxNG schema for ARIA"
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  234. # [06:33] <MikeSmith> wow I guess that one's been open since 2009
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  239. # [07:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: fortunately, we already have an RNG schema for ARIA
  240. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> yeah
  241. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> I don't know why they've been keeping that action-item open
  242. # [07:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: https://bitbucket.org/pfalcon/validator/changeset/72665dd71762#chg-src/nu/validator/servlet/VerifierCommandLine.java looks like something that I should pull into mainline
  243. # [07:34] <hsivonen> the license header is a bit odd, though
  244. # [07:34] * MikeSmith takes a look
  245. # [07:34] <hsivonen> maybe the author doesn't want a copyright line in the template
  246. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> ah, perhaps so
  247. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> it would be great to have it in mainline
  248. # [07:35] <hsivonen> also, the class should use some additional patching for generating a fake Content-Type header
  249. # [07:35] <hsivonen> after pulling it into mainline that is
  250. # [07:36] * hsivonen decides to get breakfast first
  251. # [07:36] <MikeSmith> enjoy
  252. # [07:37] * MikeSmith goes back to trying to write up a summary of the requirements implicit in the Encrypted Media Extensions proposal
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  257. # [07:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: expect at least 38 replies to your summary
  258. # [07:42] <MikeSmith> heh
  259. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> maybe somebody has asked this already, but what's the point of having both http+aes and https+aes schemes if in practice anybody using this would be encrypting it with TLS?
  260. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> I do realize that you can do with Upgrade header thing with http resources to change to TLS encryption
  261. # [07:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it would not be encrypted using TLS necessarily
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  263. # [07:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: oh?
  264. # [07:45] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Mark Watson said TLS CDNs are more expensive
  265. # [07:45] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  266. # [07:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: https+aes implies you don't trust the CDN but the CDN applies TLS anyway
  267. # [07:46] <MikeSmith> I see
  268. # [07:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: to me, https+aes looks like it's there for completeness
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  272. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so are you saying there's no real use case for TLS-encrypting the connection for these resources?
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  281. # [08:29] <Hixie> hsivonen: https+aes makes sense if you want to protect users from telling network snoopers what urls they're looking at
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  283. # [08:30] <Hixie> in js, is there an efficient way of storing a set of objects such that they can be added and removed in O(1) ?
  284. # [08:31] <Hixie> or should i just quietly add an __id__ field to all the objects and use that as an index into an object in which i keep them?
  285. # [08:31] <StoneCypher> the last time i looked ecma didn't specify its representations well enough to make complexity guarantees
  286. # [08:32] <StoneCypher> but that was in the long ago, in the before time
  287. # [08:32] <Hixie> sure, i just mean in practice with browsers today
  288. # [08:32] <StoneCypher> in practice they're trees, not sets
  289. # [08:32] <StoneCypher> "sets are trees" sets are usually unordered hashmaps
  290. # [08:32] <StoneCypher> even though they shouldn't be
  291. # [08:32] <Hixie> i think you're missing the crux of my question
  292. # [08:33] <heycam> Hixie, the solution going forward would be to use a WeakMap
  293. # [08:33] <heycam> Hixie, but before that's widely available sticking id properties on your object is the way to do it, unfortunately
  294. # [08:33] <Hixie> heycam: weakmap lets me use an object as a key?
  295. # [08:33] <heycam> Hixie, yeah
  296. # [08:33] <heycam> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/WeakMap
  297. # [08:34] <Hixie> yeah, was just reading that
  298. # [08:34] <Hixie> i need to be able to enumerate my list, so it wouldn't be useful for this
  299. # [08:35] <StoneCypher> notably, the ecmascript proposal they're talking about in that page is exactly to solve the issue i was discussing
  300. # [08:35] <StoneCypher> namely that javascript's fundamental datatypes for this are inadequate
  301. # [08:35] <Hixie> ok so the short answer is that today i need to add an id to all the objects
  302. # [08:35] <Hixie> ok
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  321. # [09:32] <zcorpan> why is html5-diff blessed from "may object" in the cfc?
  322. # [09:38] * Joins: tomasf_ (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net)
  323. # [09:41] <annevk> non-normative?
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  330. # [09:46] <zcorpan> ah
  331. # [09:47] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1363 seems opera runs it as well
  332. # [09:47] * zcorpan calls it a spec bug
  333. # [09:47] <zcorpan> unless there's a subtle security problem with running it
  334. # [09:50] <annevk> you should run that by foolip maybe
  335. # [09:51] <annevk> he did this thing with disabling javascript URLs in a bunch of places if I remember correctly
  336. # [09:52] <zcorpan> Hixie: why not make http(s)+aes never be same-origin?
  337. # [09:53] <charlvn> been toying with the java jsoup library - https://gist.github.com/1991945
  338. # [09:54] <Hixie> zcorpan: we could do that.
  339. # [09:54] <Hixie> zcorpan: send mail/bug
  340. # [09:54] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  341. # [09:56] <zcorpan> filed
  342. # [09:57] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  343. # [09:57] <Hixie> thanks
  344. # [10:00] <zcorpan> Hixie: have you committed any new features to canvas yet or is it just shuffling things around so far?
  345. # [10:00] <Hixie> hopefully just shuffling around
  346. # [10:00] <Hixie> getting there though
  347. # [10:00] <zcorpan> k, then i don't need to read the diffs :-)
  348. # [10:00] <Hixie> (hopefully because any normative changes are bugs)
  349. # [10:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: he also excluded HTTP, URL (from the web platform in the drm thread)
  350. # [10:05] <annevk> Hixie: so what exactly is hidden in the https+aes case? your one-liner was not entirely clear to me
  351. # [10:06] <Hixie> annevk: the url, assuming you mean "what's hidden from the network snooper"
  352. # [10:06] <Hixie> gotta go, bed time
  353. # [10:07] <annevk> so how is that hidden? oh well, later I guess
  354. # [10:07] <Hixie> it's hidden cos the stream is encrypted? same as https normally...
  355. # [10:07] <annevk> oh never mind
  356. # [10:07] <Hixie> anyway, ttyl :-)
  357. # [10:07] <annevk> g'night!
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  367. # [10:47] <hsivonen> looks like chuck@jumis replied to me with something totally unrelated to what I said
  368. # [10:47] <annevk> film at 11?
  369. # [10:47] <hsivonen> reminds me of http://xkcd.com/1018/
  370. # [10:48] * jgraham thinks that re-ignote is an excellent typo combining as it does the words "re-ignite" and "ignore"
  371. # [10:48] <Velmont> Hmz. :-)
  372. # [10:48] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  373. # [10:49] <annevk> less time on IRC, more time editing jgraham :p
  374. # [10:49] <jgraham> Why do you want to edit me?
  375. # [10:49] * Joins: crocket (~crocket@unaffiliated/crocket)
  376. # [10:49] <crocket> Why does firefox fail to open http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/en/mod/mod_autoindex.html with ISO-8859-1 encoding.
  377. # [10:49] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-112.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  378. # [10:49] <crocket> firefox opens it with UTF-8.
  379. # [10:50] <annevk> punctuation...
  380. # [10:50] <crocket> annevk: ???
  381. # [10:50] <annevk> crocket: you're not the only one having a conversation here ;)
  382. # [10:50] <annevk> crocket: see the logs
  383. # [10:51] <annevk> crocket: also, works fine here in Minefield
  384. # [10:51] <hsivonen> crocket: <?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1"?> is not an encoding declaration in text/html
  385. # [10:52] <annevk> confusingly called Minefield.app, but really is the latest Nightly
  386. # [10:52] <jgraham> hsivonen: I totally want to try the Dadaist approach to spec discussions
  387. # [10:52] <annevk> ooh yeah
  388. # [10:52] <annevk> so it depends on your locale
  389. # [10:52] <hsivonen> cobbler's children go barefoot also at the Apache Foundation, it seems
  390. # [10:52] <annevk> you'd think those HTTP guys know how to set something like this up
  391. # [10:53] <hsivonen> as in without real encoding declarations
  392. # [10:53] <annevk> and some fake XML
  393. # [10:54] <jgraham> Fake XML is the only way to keep it real
  394. # [10:55] <annevk> haha
  395. # [11:00] <zcorpan> annevk: time for a whatwg weekly? :-)
  396. # [11:02] <Velmont> ^^
  397. # [11:02] <annevk> I guess I can write that real quick before I have to run to catch my flight
  398. # [11:03] <zcorpan> just don't miss your flight!
  399. # [11:04] <annevk> yeah I'll go the airport first
  400. # [11:04] <annevk> topics?
  401. # [11:04] <annevk> html5-diff
  402. # [11:05] <annevk> notifications += apple?
  403. # [11:05] <annevk> http+aes
  404. # [11:06] <Velmont> Meta referrer? Maybe? Not too much happening there though :P
  405. # [11:06] <zcorpan> mutation observers added to html
  406. # [11:06] <Velmont> crossorigin script tags, - lots of scoped talk
  407. # [11:06] <zcorpan> progress on canvas
  408. # [11:07] <zcorpan> throw in a plug with webgl on opera mobile :-P
  409. # [11:07] <Velmont> Grr. Now I see that deprecate registerProtocolHandler email again. Still, noone really wants to enter that discussion.
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  415. # [11:14] <annevk> thanks guys
  416. # [11:14] <crocket> hsivonen: What is an encoding declaration in text/html?
  417. # [11:14] * hsivonen wonders what's holding Opera 12 desktop considering that Mobile shipped already
  418. # [11:14] <zcorpan> crocket: <meta charset=utf-8>
  419. # [11:14] <crocket> hmm
  420. # [11:15] <hsivonen> crocket: HTTP-level Content-Type:, <meta charset> or BOM
  421. # [11:15] <crocket> Why did httpd devs forget to do it?
  422. # [11:15] <hsivonen> crocket: you need to ask them
  423. # [11:15] <annevk> it's prolly their docs team that forgot
  424. # [11:15] <Velmont> One of the universes mysteries.
  425. # [11:15] <annevk> and they prolly don't realize they're not using XML
  426. # [11:16] <annevk> anyway, running
  427. # [11:16] <hsivonen> crocket: experience suggests that fixing it will be prioritized once the bug causes Roy Fielding to lose an argument with Hixie on a standardization list because of the bug
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  430. # [11:17] <crocket> hsivonen: I don't get it.
  431. # [11:17] <crocket> I don't understand the situation.
  432. # [11:18] <hsivonen> crocket: well, maybe they'll fix it without such a situation if you file a bug about the documentation site
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  438. # [11:32] <smaug____> Did anyone ever give a good reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Mar/0128.html
  439. # [11:33] <smaug____> (about CDM and NPAPI)
  440. # [11:34] <smaug____> there are so many messages, that perhaps I've skipped some
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  444. # [11:39] <hsivonen> smaug____: no, AFAICT
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  454. # [12:02] * zcorpan would like mentions to show up in the main twitter timeline
  455. # [12:03] <annevk> zcorpan: good link for the webgl stuff?
  456. # [12:05] <zcorpan> dunno, http://my.opera.com/chooseopera/blog/2012/02/27/opera-mini-7-next-and-opera-mobile-12 maybe?
  457. # [12:06] <annevk> that's the one I found too
  458. # [12:07] <annevk> is the correct English "This is March' first ..."
  459. # [12:08] <annevk> or March's
  460. # [12:08] * zcorpan also finds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpmYAqO2QSU
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  468. # [12:27] <hsivonen> The revert request for http+aes took longer than expected
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  485. # [12:47] <annevk> hsivonen: quite
  486. # [12:49] <hsivonen> "Cox, your friend in the digital age®" "We are the people"
  487. # [12:49] * hsivonen tries to find out what services Cox provides that might be related to HTML5 video
  488. # [12:50] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/httpaes-url-scheme
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  490. # [12:52] <david_carlisle> annevk: I think it should be 's (but don't trust an Englishman to know English grammar) but better to avoid it and say .... of March
  491. # [12:52] <annevk> google agrees with you
  492. # [12:52] <annevk> well not google, but its results
  493. # [12:53] <annevk> thanks
  494. # [12:53] <annevk> time to go to the gate now
  495. # [12:53] <zcorpan> annevk: missing link to html5-diff?
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  497. # [12:53] <zcorpan> missing link text, it seems
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  499. # [12:54] <annevk> also fixed
  500. # [12:55] <annevk> oops, gate closing
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  519. # [14:05] <charlvn> how can people think we are able to create an AI that can understand human languages if even humans have trouble in that regard :P
  520. # [14:07] <Philip`> Computers can be better than humans at lots of activities that humans invented (like arithmetic, or chess), so why not at language too?
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  524. # [14:10] <charlvn> Philip`: good point!
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  526. # [14:11] <Philip`> They could process vast amounts of data about the speaker (e.g. everything they've ever said before in their life) to construct a model of that person's mind and thought patterns at the present moment, and use that to statistically determine the most likely meaning that they intended to express given the utterance that they did express
  527. # [14:12] <Philip`> Humans can't do anything like that, so we have to apply lots of unreliable heuristics and are more likely to take the wrong meaning
  528. # [14:16] <wilhelm> I believe this is one of the difficult problems that will remain unsolved 20 years from now.
  529. # [14:16] <Philip`> (That's actually why this IRC channel's logs are public - it's part of a secret Google project to data-mine and learn the behaviour of WHATWG members in order to construct accurate electronic simulations of everyone's thoughts, eventually obsoleting the actual humans and allowing Google's algorithms to become entirely self-sufficient)
  530. # [14:18] <jgraham> If you read the HTML5 spec backwards, it reveals the Hixie actually died in 2006 and has been replaced with a prototype AI for spec-writing
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  532. # [14:21] <Philip`> The "How to read this specification" section is not just a jocular reminder that reading specs is inherently difficult - it's actually a hidden cry for help from Hixie as his neurons were being absorbed by the machines
  533. # [14:21] <charlvn> when they remove the telencephalic inhibitor chip, mankind will become obsolete
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  539. # [14:32] <zcorpan> has anyone written a script that renders the spec backwards yet?
  540. # [14:33] <charlvn> it is not the default rendering?!
  541. # [14:34] <zcorpan> inorite
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  552. # [14:56] <austincheney> is the primary use case of http+aes about privacy or security?
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  560. # [15:05] <hsivonen> austincheney: privacy against untrusted CDNs
  561. # [15:07] <austincheney> in that case it is likely doomed
  562. # [15:07] <austincheney> for two reasons
  563. # [15:08] <austincheney> 1) HTTP is inherently public, which is why there is no universal or consistent application of privacy laws for the web
  564. # [15:08] <austincheney> 2) privacy cannot be added with security mechanisms
  565. # [15:09] <austincheney> privacy is not security
  566. # [15:09] <hsivonen> the whole point is that it doesn't matter how public HTTP is when the payload has been encrypted and the key transfered out of band
  567. # [15:09] <austincheney> a grave fear in attempting to attach privacy to a public medium is that it potentially opens private vectors of attack
  568. # [15:10] <hsivonen> your point #2 doesn't make sense
  569. # [15:10] <austincheney> it does make sense
  570. # [15:10] <austincheney> privacy is not a security condition
  571. # [15:10] <hsivonen> it's a privacy mechanism--not a security mechanism
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  573. # [15:12] <austincheney> in the US privacy is a legal classification and not an action or practice upon a work
  574. # [15:12] <austincheney> as a result, at least in the US, privacy cannot be added
  575. # [15:12] <austincheney> it can only be taken away
  576. # [15:12] <hsivonen> austincheney: it's not privacy in a legal sense
  577. # [15:13] <hsivonen> austincheney: it's privacy in a technical sense that you want to hide information from someone
  578. # [15:13] <hsivonen> austincheney: in this case, from a CDN
  579. # [15:13] <austincheney> in US law, privacy only exists in a legal sense
  580. # [15:14] <charlvn> austincheney: how is US law in any way relevant to global internet standards?
  581. # [15:14] <austincheney> its not relevant to global concerns, but it is entirely relevant to the internet as it resides in the US
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  583. # [15:15] <hsivonen> austincheney: you seem to be *very* confused about the purpose of http+aes
  584. # [15:15] <austincheney> I probably am
  585. # [15:16] <austincheney> the best way to make a transmission private is to not use HTTP
  586. # [15:17] <charlvn> if HTTP has limitations that prevent its use, those limitations need to be addressed
  587. # [15:18] <charlvn> i thought that is what this whole initiative is about
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  590. # [15:20] <austincheney> sometimes limitations exist for a good reason, otherwise limitations exist because of violations against a technology's intent
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  592. # [15:21] <austincheney> we have been violating the intent of http for about 20 years now
  593. # [15:21] <austincheney> http was intended to be simple and sessionless, but webapps are neither
  594. # [15:22] <charlvn> technology evolves and adapts to user needs. it is not a constant. it never was a constant and will never be a constant.
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  596. # [15:22] <austincheney> violating the intention of HTTP is a key factor in the rapid growth of the web's security concerns
  597. # [15:23] <austincheney> evolving the technology beyond its intention carries unexpected costs
  598. # [15:23] <charlvn> that might be true but it does not need to stagnate technological development
  599. # [15:24] <charlvn> we just need to address the issues that arrise
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  604. # [15:35] <zewt> no, http is just a protocol; it doesn't care what data payloads are sent over it
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  606. # [15:35] <zewt> uh okay then
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  614. # [15:51] <karlcow> exactly HTTP is an application protocol, sorry for the pedantry
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  641. # [17:11] <annevk> zcorpan: if you make a bitbucket account we can just add you to the repo
  642. # [17:11] <annevk> zcorpan: seems simpler
  643. # [17:12] <annevk> oh you do it seems
  644. # [17:12] <annevk> zcorpan: done
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  646. # [17:21] <zcorpan> for specification-data?
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  648. # [17:25] <annevk> yes
  649. # [17:25] <zcorpan> ok
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  651. # [17:32] <aklein> annevk: finally got around to implementing ordering of mutation record delivery, and I'm wondering if we can do a few more tweaks to http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-mo-invoke
  652. # [17:33] <annevk> sure
  653. # [17:34] <annevk> I can probably do them now
  654. # [17:36] <aklein> annevk: the convenient thing would be to make a copy of the scripting environment's observer list, containing only those observers with non-empty queues
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  657. # [17:36] <aklein> so if you do further mutations that trigger other observers during a callback, they don't get notified until the next time around the loop
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  659. # [17:37] <aklein> or if a new observer is created in a callback, and observers changes during a loop, it also won't get notified until the next time around
  660. # [17:37] <aklein> s/observers chnages/observes changes/
  661. # [17:37] <aklein> I'd also be willing to implement the algorithm as-is, but it seems a little trickier
  662. # [17:37] <aklein> (too bad smaug's not around)
  663. # [17:38] <AryehGregor> zewt, people usually use CDNs for performance, and the extra round-trips of HTTPS would tend to work against that. http+aes provides secrecy without extra latency, assuming the client isn't going to be troubled by AES decryption. (Which is very likely if it has the computing power to display video.)
  664. # [17:38] <annevk> might be best to email the list about that aklein
  665. # [17:38] <aklein> annevk: ok
  666. # [17:38] <aklein> looking forward to a firefox implementation so I can just explain these things with test cases :)
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  668. # [17:39] <annevk> wow http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/07/deutsche_telekom_data_record/
  669. # [17:39] <annevk> give me!
  670. # [17:39] <Ms2ger> aklein, it's coming around... Only it's always a week or so away :)
  671. # [17:40] <AryehGregor> Anyway, http+aes seems like it solves a use-case that nobody is going to be very interested in. For DRM, you probably care about consumers pirating the content, not CDNs. CDNs can be retained under NDAs that it's not worth their while to break.
  672. # [17:40] * annevk hopes Opera gets around to it soonish too
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  674. # [17:41] <AryehGregor> Also, based on how CDNs generally work, you could only rarely rotate the key in this use-case, because you'd have to upload new versions to the CDN whenever you do, and that considerably mitigates the usefulness of the encryption.
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  677. # [17:44] <AryehGregor> Does YouTube even use CDNs? Maybe it stores some files within ISPs' networks, but the ISP can snoop the AES key out of the page if it wants, since YouTube isn't HTTPS by default.
  678. # [17:44] <AryehGregor> Netflix seems to use a CDN (Limelight Networks), but realistically I find it hard to imagine them worrying about piracy. If the content owners are worried about Limelight pirating their media, why aren't they worried about Netflix itself?
  679. # [17:45] * AryehGregor suspects this is all a smokescreen.
  680. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> Hear hear, Knol is dying
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  683. # [17:51] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  684. # [17:51] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se)
  685. # [17:51] * Ms2ger is now known as hatwg
  686. # [17:51] <hatwg> Good morning, dglazkov!
  687. # [17:51] * hatwg is now known as Ms2ger
  688. # [17:52] <dglazkov> my favorite hatwg!!!
  689. # [17:52] <dglazkov> it's a working group where we discuss hats.
  690. # [17:52] <annevk> moar hats
  691. # [17:54] <dglazkov> also, debate serious topics, like whether helmets are hats
  692. # [17:54] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@207.239.114.206) (Quit: tantek)
  693. # [17:55] <annevk> oh yes, lets redefine hat
  694. # [17:55] <dglazkov> and of course, the hot topics of Hat Rights Management
  695. # [17:55] <annevk> it will be splendid
  696. # [17:55] <dglazkov> very controversial
  697. # [17:55] <annevk> hats don't have a lot of rights
  698. # [17:55] <annevk> so shouldn't be too hard
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  700. # [17:56] <dglazkov> well, unless you wear a person as a hat
  701. # [17:57] <annevk> nice try atlassian
  702. # [17:57] <annevk> sends you spam
  703. # [17:57] <annevk> puts the unsubscribe forever site in maintenance
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  705. # [18:01] <annevk> heh http://i.imgur.com/HRU3z.png
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  727. # [18:21] <dglazkov> sicking!!!
  728. # [18:22] <AryehGregor> annevk, well, it's sent to ayg+bitbucket, so I know where it's from.
  729. # [18:25] * gwicke__ is now known as gwicke
  730. # [18:28] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, "http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html redirected to https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html"
  731. # [18:28] <Ms2ger> That doesn't seem to happen here
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  734. # [18:32] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: it's the output of the w3c link checker
  735. # [18:32] <Ms2ger> html5-diff?
  736. # [18:32] * Ms2ger checks
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  739. # [18:32] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/dump/refs.html
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  743. # [18:41] <Ms2ger> Indeed so
  744. # [18:41] <Ms2ger> [18:34:18.346] GET http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html [HTTP/1.1 200 Script output follows 840ms]
  745. # [18:41] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith?
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  752. # [18:46] <annevk> NFC API
  753. # [18:46] <annevk> first thought Unicode or near-field?
  754. # [18:46] <annevk> <- Unicode
  755. # [18:46] <Ms2ger> r-
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  758. # [18:47] <bga> where to read about -webkit-texture ?
  759. # [18:49] <jgraham> Webkit source code?
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  762. # [18:51] <StoneCypher> bga: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22-webkit-texture%22
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  775. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> Cool.
  776. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> Reproducible null pointer dereference in the kernel, triggered by 3D transforms in Chrome.
  777. # [18:57] <Ms2ger> Chrome++
  778. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> I guess it serves me right for using the experimental Gallium3D support.
  779. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> No, (nouveau+experimental Gallium3D support)++.
  780. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> I'm going to blame Google anyway :)
  781. # [18:58] <AryehGregor> Chrome isn't even using hardware acceleration, according to about:gpu.
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  783. # [19:04] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  784. # [19:05] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: i'm ok with calling it a bug in either the link checker or the dvcs.w3.org server and not changing the url if it doesn't redirect for normal users
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  786. # [19:06] <Ms2ger> I'm happy to use https, fwiw, but I'd like to hear what's actually happening
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  794. # [19:20] <Hixie> what's the easiest way, in js, of taking a string and splitting it on the first two spaces so that you get the first word, the second word, and the remainder in "first second the remainder"?
  795. # [19:20] <Hixie> .split's limit argument doesn't seem to do anything useful here
  796. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> The second parameter of String.split() doesn't behave very usefully here.
  797. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> I think Python's does what you want. :)
  798. # [19:21] <Hixie> perl too
  799. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> Lame.
  800. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
  801. # [19:21] <Hixie> sadly i'm in js :-)
  802. # [19:21] <Hixie> i guess a regexp would work
  803. # [19:21] <jgraham> Reimplement a python interpreter in js and use that?
  804. # [19:21] <Hixie> seems like overkill though
  805. # [19:21] <Hixie> you can take my last statement as referring either to regexps or your idea :-)
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  807. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> I guess: var arr = s.split(" "); if (arr.length > 3) arr[2] = arr.slice(2).join(" ");
  808. # [19:22] <annevk> split,pop,pop,join
  809. # [19:22] <Hixie> yeah i guess join would work
  810. # [19:22] <jgraham> Yeah, I think I wouyld do what AryehGregor suggested
  811. # [19:22] <Hixie> awright
  812. # [19:22] <Hixie> thanks
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  814. # [19:22] <jgraham> It is probably hideously inefficient though. Hopefully that doesn't matter
  815. # [19:22] <Philip`> That seems much uglier and less efficient than regexps
  816. # [19:23] <Hixie> the advantage over regexp is that i actually have to do this for varying values of 2
  817. # [19:24] <Hixie> and it'll just work generically for any number of leading words that i want to strip off
  818. # [19:24] <Hixie> whereas regexps would have to be fine-turned for each case
  819. # [19:24] <Ms2ger> I guess you could generate the regexps
  820. # [19:24] <zcorpan> Hixie: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1365
  821. # [19:25] <Hixie> zcorpan: thanks
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  824. # [19:27] <Philip`> var x="a b c d"; var re = new RegExp("(.*?) ", "g"); var words = []; for (var i=0; i<2; ++i) words.push(re.exec(x)[1]); words.push(x.substr(re.lastIndex));
  825. # [19:28] <Hixie> not sure that's less ugly :-)
  826. # [19:28] <Philip`> That's because you added the requirement that 2 is variable :-p
  827. # [19:28] <Hixie> there's probably less string copying though
  828. # [19:29] <Hixie> though with js engines, who knows
  829. # [19:29] <zcorpan> run it through jsperf
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  831. # [19:30] * Philip` isn't sufficiently corrupted to like generating variable-length regexp patterns with string manipulation
  832. # [19:30] <Hixie> i'll worry about perf if this turns out to be too slow. :-)
  833. # [19:32] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1366 alternative that doesn't construct a new string
  834. # [19:32] <zcorpan> but measures the length of two :-)
  835. # [19:34] <zcorpan> maybe some jsperf regular will read the logs and be curious enough to run a benchmark
  836. # [19:34] * matjas whistles
  837. # [19:35] <zcorpan> :-)
  838. # [19:35] <Hixie> i went with just splitting the whole thing on spaces at the top and then rejoining the trailing bits when i know which i need
  839. # [19:36] <zcorpan> what's this for, btw?
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  841. # [19:37] <Hixie> parsing some stuff from a server script
  842. # [19:40] <Hixie> on another note
  843. # [19:40] <Hixie> the sooner we can get the terser Element.create() syntax done and shipped the happier i'll be
  844. # [19:41] <Ms2ger> Write the spec for it? :)
  845. # [19:41] <Hixie> i've been tempted
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  847. # [19:42] <Hixie> anyone got some code already written to take a string and escape it for use as a CSS identifier?
  848. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> glazou might
  849. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> Oh, you weren't asking what I thought you were
  850. # [19:43] <zcorpan> matjas probably does
  851. # [19:44] <zcorpan> http://mothereff.in/css-escapes
  852. # [19:44] <matjas> Hixie: see http://mothereff.in/css-escapes source: https://github.com/mathiasbynens/mothereff.in/blob/master/css-escapes/eff.js
  853. # [19:44] <Hixie> sweet, thanks
  854. # [19:45] <matjas> note that standard CSS character escape sequences for supplementary Unicode characters aren’t currently supported in WebKit, though: http://mothereff.in/css-escapes#1%F0%9D%8C%86
  855. # [19:45] <matjas> so you may not want to escape those
  856. # [19:45] <Hixie> i'm targetting browsers of the future here, so that's not an issue
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  858. # [19:48] <Hixie> oh this isn'ta s bad as it first looked
  859. # [19:48] <Hixie> since i don't need to escape non-ascii
  860. # [19:48] <Hixie> duh
  861. # [19:51] <annevk> is the input a DOMString?
  862. # [19:51] <annevk> might want to look out for surrogates if so
  863. # [19:51] <Hixie> why?
  864. # [19:51] <Hixie> i'm just gonna stick it in style.textContent
  865. # [19:51] <annevk> is CSS also code unit based?
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  867. # [19:52] <annevk> lone surrogates might end up as U+FFFD
  868. # [19:52] <Hixie> oh i don't have lone surrogates, i'm good on that front
  869. # [19:52] <Hixie> (or rather, if i do, i don't really care)
  870. # [19:52] <Hixie> (those can fail, whatever)
  871. # [19:52] <annevk> k
  872. # [19:53] <Hixie> matjas: what's the difference between s.charAt(i) and s[i] ?
  873. # [19:53] <Hixie> (just looking at your code)
  874. # [19:53] <zcorpan> Hixie: the former works in old IE
  875. # [19:53] <Hixie> ah ok
  876. # [19:54] <matjas> what zcorpan said
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  879. # [19:54] <Hixie> definitely don't care about old IE since this is parsing websocket stuff :-D
  880. # [19:54] <matjas> IE < 8 doesn’t support string indexing, and IE8 only supports it for string literals, not for string objects
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  882. # [19:54] * zcorpan is a bit disturbed that he still hasn't forgotten about old IE limitations
  883. # [19:55] * zcorpan hasn't cared about or even used old IE for *years*
  884. # [19:56] <Ms2ger> Nice one, github
  885. # [19:56] <matjas> zcorpan: sounds like your garbage collector broke
  886. # [19:56] <matjas> free up that memory!
  887. # [19:56] <zcorpan> i guess that stuff kinda gets in to your spine when you have to work with the limitations when you first learn stuff
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  889. # [19:57] <zcorpan> http://theoatmeal.com/comics/brain
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  891. # [19:59] <Hixie> matjas: i derived http://junkyard.damowmow.com/503 from your code, do you mind if i assume copyright of this variant? (and immediately declare it public domain, since it's like 10 lines of code)
  892. # [20:00] <matjas> Hixie: sure, that’s cool
  893. # [20:00] <Hixie> ta
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  917. # [20:53] <sicking> dglazkov: hey
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  920. # [20:58] * jwalden wonders if sicking is still sicking or not today
  921. # [20:59] <sicking> huh
  922. # [20:59] <sicking> i'm still wft with a cold if that's what you're asking
  923. # [21:00] <jwalden> :-(
  924. # [21:00] <jwalden> and that is what I was musing about
  925. # [21:00] <jwalden> never let an opportunity for a bad pun go to waste
  926. # [21:01] <Ms2ger> Where's Waldo when you need a bad pun...
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  964. # [22:41] <dglazkov> sicking y u no answer my emails
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  968. # [22:45] <gsnedders> Anyone got any opinion as to the behaviour of {get __proto__() {}} or {__proto__: 1} should do?
  969. # [22:45] <AryehGregor> So the makefile for CSS3 Transforms seems to require that either I type my username and password every time when making, or I put them in a .curlrc that will be used for *all* curl requests?
  970. # [22:46] <AryehGregor> Meaning if some random other script uses curl to access some page that happens to be authenticated, it will send my W3C username and password?
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  979. # [23:24] <sicking> dglazkov: ugh, sorry, so hard to keep up with mail these days
  980. # [23:24] <sicking> dglazkov: We currently don't have anyone working on shadow DOM. Just a resource problem :(
  981. # [23:24] <dglazkov> sicking: no stress :)
  982. # [23:25] <dglazkov> sicking: ok
  983. # [23:25] <sicking> dglazkov: does that answer the questoin?
  984. # [23:25] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  985. # [23:25] <dglazkov> sicking: it totally does!
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  987. # [23:27] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Mar/0021.html (via @mattur) :/
  988. # [23:29] <dglazkov> sicking: I briefly considered hacking on mozilla myself, but then realized I need _different_ people to implement :)
  989. # [23:29] <Hixie> annevk: doesn't look like anything new?
  990. # [23:29] * Joins: WeirdAl (~chatzilla@g2spf.ask.info)
  991. # [23:37] <Hixie> anyone know of the perf group ever ended up using the hook i added for them?
  992. # [23:37] <Hixie> i never heard back on it after adding it
  993. # [23:38] * Joins: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-rnetrutvgcwwgxdl)
  994. # [23:38] <benschwarz> Wow. Way to be a dick Janina Sajka
  995. # [23:39] <Hixie> i'm sure she's not trying to be rude
  996. # [23:39] <Hixie> she's just passionate
  997. # [23:40] <Hixie> (and for some reason thinks we don't think accessibility matters)
  998. # [23:40] <smaug____> sicking: have we even agreed to implement shadow dom
  999. # [23:41] <smaug____> I kind of understood differently when discussing with someone...
  1000. # [23:41] <smaug____> (the draft is still unreviewed )
  1001. # [23:41] * Quits: skylamer` (cgskylamer@78.90.213.55) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1002. # [23:41] <smaug____> dglazkov: and sorry, I'm a bit negative person :)
  1003. # [23:41] <benschwarz> "Perhaps, Silvia, you won't be surprised to hear that we are engaged in use case development and requirements gathering. Sound familiar?"
  1004. # [23:42] <smaug____> dglazkov: does the shadow dom already support default handling for events
  1005. # [23:42] <dglazkov> smaug____: hey, I am still waiting for those bugs to be filed :)
  1006. # [23:42] <smaug____> yes!
  1007. # [23:43] <benschwarz> its condescending at the very least, and "not okay"
  1008. # [23:43] * smaug____ kicks himself
  1009. # [23:44] <Hixie> benschwarz: she's just frustrated. the problem in that e-mail isn't that, it's the part where she doesn't seem to understand why longdesc="" is bad and how we've already addressed the accessibility needs in question.
  1010. # [23:44] <Hixie> benschwarz: it's quite sad
  1011. # [23:45] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  1012. # [23:45] <benschwarz> yeah I think so too
  1013. # [23:45] <Hixie> benschwarz: (but as i indicated to annevk, it's hardly new)
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  1022. # Session Close: Thu Mar 08 00:00:02 2012

The end :)