/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-03-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Mar 15 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@rrcs-24-227-244-117.sw.biz.rr.com)
  4. # [00:05] <_bga> http://blog.chipx86.com/2012/03/13/wsx-virtual-machines-in-your-browser/
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  8. # [00:10] <Hixie> ok lineDashOffset is just frustratingly hard to specify
  9. # [00:10] <TabAtkins_> Really? I'd think that once you have specified dashed lines without an offset, the offset is easy.
  10. # [00:10] <TabAtkins_> Just move the start point.
  11. # [00:11] <Hixie> you'd think
  12. # [00:11] <TabAtkins_> Do you define dashed lines from a start point?
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  14. # [00:12] <Hixie> i define dashed lines as an algorithm you apply to a set of subpaths
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  18. # [00:13] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#trace-a-path
  19. # [00:14] <Hixie> steps 6 to 22
  20. # [00:14] <Hixie> my initial idea was to just offset L in step 7, but that breaks because then i have to define how you wrap around L later
  21. # [00:14] <Hixie> which is all kinds of special cases
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  23. # [00:14] <Hixie> now i'm thinking of just generating a new dash list that is suitably offset
  24. # [00:15] <TabAtkins_> 7: "line for of all lines"
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  26. # [00:15] <Hixie> oops
  27. # [00:15] <Hixie> thanks
  28. # [00:15] <TabAtkins_> Define the dash list to be infinite (with proper wrap-around behavior), and apply an offset.
  29. # [00:15] <TabAtkins_> I do this for repeating gradients.
  30. # [00:16] <Hixie> the problem with that is that the offset can be into half-way through one of the dashes
  31. # [00:16] <TabAtkins_> And?
  32. # [00:16] <Hixie> and so you have to deal with that
  33. # [00:17] <Hixie> since otherwise the subsequent steps don't work
  34. # [00:17] <Hixie> since they use the length of each subpart of the dash list
  35. # [00:17] <TabAtkins_> Ah, indeed, because you're defining this as explicitly iterating through the list.
  36. # [00:18] <TabAtkins_> Rather than "coloring" the stroke line with on/off state.
  37. # [00:18] <Hixie> i need to be explicit so that it's clear where line caps end up going
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  39. # [00:18] <Hixie> (haven't yet specced that, it goes in step 22)
  40. # [00:20] <_bga> are you contribute to Amaya reference web browser?
  41. # [00:20] <Hixie> "reference"?
  42. # [00:20] <TabAtkins_> _bga: ....bwuh?
  43. # [00:22] <_bga> iirc it was browser that idealy support web standards
  44. # [00:22] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
  45. # [00:22] <_bga> developed by you
  46. # [00:22] <TabAtkins_> Um, what?
  47. # [00:22] <TabAtkins_> Amaya is an old browser made by the W3C, and is largely unmaintained.
  48. # [00:22] <Hixie> amaya was a testbed browser, it never had good standards support and i don't think anyone in this channel ever worked on it
  49. # [00:23] <_bga> ah
  50. # [00:24] <_bga> so now we dont have ideal browser
  51. # [00:24] <TabAtkins_> We never had an "ideal" browser.
  52. # [00:24] <TabAtkins_> I have no idea what you heard about Amaya or where you heard it, but it was never a good browser.
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  136. # [02:08] <_bga> http://js1k.com/2012-love/demo/1243
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  144. # [02:28] <scott_gonzalez> Hixie: .innerHTML in IE clears the innerHTML of all descendants. Do you agree that this is a bug?
  145. # [02:28] <scott_gonzalez> http://jsfiddle.net/Hej6h/6/
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  147. # [02:34] <smaug____> it does what?
  148. # [02:35] <Hixie> scott_gonzalez: sounds like a bug, yes
  149. # [02:36] <scott_gonzalez> smaug____: If you have <p><a>x</a></p>
  150. # [02:36] <scott_gonzalez> And you have a reference to the anchor element.
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  152. # [02:36] <scott_gonzalez> Then you do p.innerHTML = "";
  153. # [02:36] <scott_gonzalez> a.innerHTML will get cleared as well.
  154. # [02:36] <scott_gonzalez> So your reference is pretty much useless at that point.
  155. # [02:36] <Hixie> what happens to the text node's data if you still have the text node around?
  156. # [02:36] <scott_gonzalez> I haven't tried that. Let me check.
  157. # [02:37] <Hixie> and what if the <a> element contains another element?
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  159. # [02:39] <scott_gonzalez> That seems to get cleared out too.
  160. # [02:40] <scott_gonzalez> Same results when a contains another element.
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  164. # [02:40] <Hixie> so it empties every text node and every element's child list?
  165. # [02:40] <Hixie> how weird
  166. # [02:42] <smaug____> not very weird
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  168. # [02:43] <smaug____> I could imagine it can help releasing memory in certain cases
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  170. # [02:44] <Hixie> seems like it would waste a lot of cycles
  171. # [02:44] <Hixie> given that the memory will likely be released anyway at GC
  172. # [02:45] <scott_gonzalez> Right, it would only help if there are references to the nodes. And GC can't kick in for those until the references are removed anyway.
  173. # [02:45] <scott_gonzalez> Although right now GC is kicking in too early if there are references.
  174. # [02:45] <scott_gonzalez> Since the nodes are staying, but they're losing all of their content.
  175. # [02:51] <scott_gonzalez> I'll report this to Microsoft and see what they say.
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  271. # [09:10] * zcorpan discovers http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/aural.html#Emacspeak
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  278. # [09:26] <hsivonen> zcorpan: are there other impls besides Emacspeak?
  279. # [09:27] <zcorpan> hsivonen: dunno
  280. # [09:28] <zcorpan> but i hadn't expected that kind of section in css 2.1
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  282. # [09:42] <asmodai> That's interesting, latest nvidia drivers seem to change something with font look in Firefox.
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  284. # [09:55] <asmodai> Mm, restart of firefox cleared that up. Guess it doesn't like having the driver ripped out from underneath it and updated by the recent nvidia installers.
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  288. # [10:07] <loostro> Hi, is this correct? <a><li>some item</li></a> or I must do <li><a><div>some item</div></a></li> to make sure the anchor covers the whole box?
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  295. # [10:15] <zcorpan> loostro: neither. you should do <li><a>some item</a></li> and then apply display:block to the link
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  297. # [10:16] <loostro> thx
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  336. # [11:33] * zcorpan finds http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/generic/nsBRFrame.cpp#137
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  340. # [11:44] <Velmont> Should be more idb people here. Anyone feel called to discuss? :P
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  342. # [11:48] <smaug____> Velmont: you need to wait for sicking
  343. # [11:49] <jgraham> Velmont: I thought "idb people" were sicking
  344. # [11:49] <jgraham> And maybe some people at Microsoft, but they're not allowed to hang around here
  345. # [11:53] <Velmont> jgraham: Yep, -- but also Jonas from google would be swell to have here.
  346. # [11:53] <Velmont> smaug____: Yeah yeah, -- I know, but he's not really in my timezone, -- so often not here when I want to talk about stuff :]
  347. # [11:53] <Velmont> smaug____: Hence the "more".
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  349. # [11:54] <Velmont> Don't have to be editor or anything, -- just knowing the spec very well. ;]
  350. # [11:54] <smaug____> Jonas from google ?
  351. # [11:54] <Velmont> Joshua Bell I meant.
  352. # [11:55] <Velmont> sry :P Talking about Sicking made me write the wrong name. :P
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  372. # [13:24] <zcorpan> turns out there were more quirks in the source that weren't documented in mdn http://simon.html5.org/specs/quirks-mode#the-???-quirks
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  375. # [13:28] <StoneCypher> why is quirksmode being documented?
  376. # [13:29] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/specs/quirks-mode#goals
  377. # [13:29] <StoneCypher> i don't understand the purpose; i thought quirksmode was a grab-bag of browsers trying to DWIM and universally failing
  378. # [13:29] <StoneCypher> well no
  379. # [13:29] <StoneCypher> all that does is say what you're doing
  380. # [13:29] <StoneCypher> not why
  381. # [13:29] <StoneCypher> i mean yes, i can see that you're documenting quirksmode; the question is why that's desirable.
  382. # [13:30] <zcorpan> ah. much for the same reason we specified e.g. html parsing
  383. # [13:30] <jgraham> > i thought quirksmode was a grab-bag of browsers trying to DWIM and universally failing
  384. # [13:30] <jgraham> That's where you went wrong
  385. # [13:30] <StoneCypher> jgraham: okay, so what is it?
  386. # [13:30] <annevk> StoneCypher: "Get interoperability on quirks that are needed for Web compat." seems like a pretty clear "why"
  387. # [13:31] <StoneCypher> that's a "what"
  388. # [13:31] <StoneCypher> not a "why"
  389. # [13:31] <annevk> "Limit quirks to a fixed set of legacy features so they don't propagate into new features." too actually
  390. # [13:31] <StoneCypher> those are goals, not purposes.
  391. # [13:32] <zcorpan> we want to get interop because it makes sites render the same across browsers, which is good for browser developers not needing to tweak quirks all the time and reverse engineer others, and it's good for users because sites that are written against quirks mode for browser A works the same in browser B
  392. # [13:32] <jgraham> If you don't think that interoperability between browsers is a good enough reason to have a spec, I'm not sure what anyone could say to convince you that standards are a good idea
  393. # [13:32] <StoneCypher> i think we're sort of missing the point of the question
  394. # [13:33] <StoneCypher> it was my understanding that the purpose of quirksmode was to allow browsers to silently fall back to prior, standards violating behavior
  395. # [13:33] <jgraham> No
  396. # [13:33] <StoneCypher> so either i misundersatnd what quirksmode is
  397. # [13:33] <StoneCypher> okay, so what is it, i ask again
  398. # [13:33] <jgraham> Many browsers don't have "prior" behaviour
  399. # [13:33] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@109.224.128.70) (Quit: http://brandedcode.com | http://github.com/miksago)
  400. # [13:34] <jgraham> They were written after the standard
  401. # [13:34] <zcorpan> quirks mode was introduced because the css spec was incompatible with behavior ("quirks") that existing content relied on
  402. # [13:35] <zcorpan> instead of fixing css to be compatible
  403. # [13:35] <StoneCypher> zcorpan: i am unable to distinguish between that and what i said
  404. # [13:35] <StoneCypher> zcorpan: what am i missing
  405. # [13:35] <jgraham> The point of quirks mode is to bridge the disconnect that emerged (mostly) in the early days of CSS between what was actually needed to render documents on the web and what the CSS people wrote down
  406. # [13:35] <jgraham> This led to two populations of documents
  407. # [13:35] <StoneCypher> this pretty much sounds like "let the browser violate the standard"
  408. # [13:35] <jgraham> Ones that depended on the new behaiour and ones that depended on the old behaviour
  409. # [13:36] <jgraham> Any web browser needs to support both
  410. # [13:37] <jgraham> So far only one population has had good implementation instructions
  411. # [13:37] <StoneCypher> so, i respect that there is an art form to talking around the intent of a question
  412. # [13:37] <StoneCypher> but
  413. # [13:37] <StoneCypher> my question stands
  414. # [13:37] <StoneCypher> in what way is that not "let the browsers ignore the standards for old documents"
  415. # [13:38] <jgraham> I think you are making the erroneous assumption that calling something a "standard" makes it magical
  416. # [13:38] <StoneCypher> i didn't say anything about magic
  417. # [13:38] <annevk> o_O
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  419. # [13:39] <jgraham> OK then, let me rephrase
  420. # [13:39] <jgraham> The point of the document is the exact opposite of what you say
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  422. # [13:39] <jgraham> It is "create a standard for rendering old (or indeed new, if they happen to have a particular pragma) documents"
  423. # [13:39] <StoneCypher> oh.
  424. # [13:40] <StoneCypher> well that was straightforward.
  425. # [13:40] <StoneCypher> thakn you.
  426. # [13:40] <StoneCypher> are you open to small suggestions?
  427. # [13:40] <zcorpan> is there something i should add to the spec, like a section "Motivation" that discusses this?
  428. # [13:40] <zcorpan> sure
  429. # [13:41] <StoneCypher> that's what i was about to suggest, actually :)
  430. # [13:41] <StoneCypher> people from standards-focussed languages (in my case, c++) will read those goals in the way that i did, i believe
  431. # [13:41] <StoneCypher> adding a statement of purpose will clarify what one wants here
  432. # [13:41] <StoneCypher> a bullet added to those goals, basically a cut and paste of jgraham's last sentence, will reach dim people like me quite quickly
  433. # [13:41] <zcorpan> is what jgraham wrote good enough for the spec or should it be phrased in some different way?
  434. # [13:42] <zcorpan> k
  435. # [13:42] <StoneCypher> other than rephrasing to fit the style of the doc, it's near-ideal
  436. # [13:42] <StoneCypher> jgraham: apologies if i was being dense. i really didn't get it until then.
  437. # [13:44] <kennyluck> (re. So far only one population has had good implementation instructions) Because no one bother care the other population which doesn't grow.
  438. # [13:45] <StoneCypher> is the idea to solidify the handling of legacy documents, or are people (not counting people who just don't know any better, say code cut and pasters) actually still using quirksmode on purpose?
  439. # [13:45] <kennyluck> It's fair to say the quirks mode documentation a worthwhile document (so other people don't need to reverse engineer, indeed), though I doubt we will actually reach interop for this population.
  440. # [13:45] <StoneCypher> i agree, now that i know what it's for
  441. # [13:46] <kennyluck> And I don't think it makes to the Web better if reaching interop for this population actually makes the browsers slower.
  442. # [13:46] <StoneCypher> well, if browsers are well authored, it shouldn't
  443. # [13:46] <StoneCypher> things that kick in in quirksmode have no need to be in the mainline path of control
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  447. # [13:51] <jgraham> kennyluck: I don't think it's either true that it doesn't grow or that people don't care. I thoroughly expect that Opera has site-compat bugs related to slight differences in quirks mode
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  450. # [13:51] <jgraham> and users don't exactly check the doctype and decide "oh the site depends on undefined behaviour. I should stop using the site rather than switch browser"
  451. # [13:52] <jgraham> Especially if it e.g. their bank
  452. # [13:52] <kennyluck> That's true.
  453. # [13:52] * Joins: ard_ (ard@dracul.kill.pl)
  454. # [13:52] <zcorpan> ok i added what jgraham said verbatim to Goals. thanks
  455. # [13:55] <ard_> hi. what should I do if I'd like to see something added to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Canvas (new api proposals) ?
  456. # [13:58] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@66.207.208.98)
  457. # [13:58] <kennyluck> Anyway, I would probably not call this document "Quirks Mode Standards" but something like "Quirks Mode Interoperability Living Document" or "CSS LS — Appendix X. Quirks Mode (This section in non-normative)".
  458. # [13:59] <StoneCypher> zcorpan: word
  459. # [14:00] <StoneCypher> zcorpan, jgraham, annevk: thank you for the discussion
  460. # [14:00] <StoneCypher> i feel like i forgot someone
  461. # [14:02] <annevk> ard_: at this point it's prolly best to email
  462. # [14:02] <ard_> annevk: hixie?
  463. # [14:02] <annevk> ard_: and it's best to email about use cases, not solutions
  464. # [14:02] <annevk> ard_: whatwg@whatwg.org
  465. # [14:02] <annevk> ard_: you need to be subscribed first
  466. # [14:05] <ard_> annevk: I'll try. thanks :)
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  469. # [14:13] <matjas> “'background' on the root element is rendered on the canvas. @SelenIT2 and less surprisingly @davidbaron and @zcorpan had this. #csspubquiz” — http://twitter.com/annevk/status/180277920072351745 mind explaining?
  470. # [14:13] <matjas> i have a feeling this is not just about <style>:root { background: lime; }</style>
  471. # [14:16] <kennyluck> "I didn't expect spec comment handling to turn into Validator.nu feature bargaining."
  472. # [14:16] <StoneCypher> lal
  473. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: what you quoting from?
  474. # [14:17] <kennyluck> MikeSmith, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15936#c4
  475. # [14:23] * Joins: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
  476. # [14:25] <matjas> re: root background (http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/colors.html#background), what exactly fails in all browsers except IE/Opera?
  477. # [14:27] * Joins: bga (bga@2001:41d0:1:8d75::)
  478. # [14:29] <annevk> matjas: you forgot display:none
  479. # [14:29] <annevk> matjas: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cstyle%3E%3Aroot%7Bdisplay%3Anone%3Bbackground%3Alime%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E
  480. # [14:30] <matjas> annevk: oh wow! thanks
  481. # [14:31] <annevk> tweet is a little ambiguous because of length
  482. # [14:31] <annevk> everyone renders it on canvas
  483. # [14:31] <annevk> but gecko/webkit don't when display:none
  484. # [14:31] <annevk> they prolly simple don't look at background
  485. # [14:32] <annevk> yeah
  486. # [14:32] <annevk> Gecko has the same bug for body{display:none;background:lime}
  487. # [14:32] <annevk> WebKit too
  488. # [14:33] <annevk> (body elements in the HTML namespace get their background property propagated too)
  489. # [14:35] * Joins: ahf (ahf@irssi/staff/ahf)
  490. # [14:38] <matjas> annevk: where does it say that about `body`? is that defined by CSS or HTML?
  491. # [14:38] * matjas geeks out on these obscure fun facts
  492. # [14:38] <annevk> CSS
  493. # [14:39] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/colors.html#background
  494. # [14:39] <matjas> “ For documents whose root element is an HTML "HTML" element or an XHTML "html" element that has computed values of 'transparent' for 'background-color' and 'none' for 'background-image', user agents must instead use the computed value of the background properties from that element's first HTML "BODY" element or XHTML "body" element child when painting backgrounds for the canvas, and must not pa
  495. # [14:39] <matjas> int a background for that child element.”
  496. # [14:39] <annevk> fourth paragraph
  497. # [14:39] <matjas> right
  498. # [14:39] <matjas> mind = blown
  499. # [14:39] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visufx.html#overflow has the same
  500. # [14:44] <matjas> ah, i remember being confused by that a couple of years ago, in a design that required `body { overflow: auto }`
  501. # [14:45] <zcorpan> annevk: alert() didn't count as a correct answer? :-)
  502. # [14:46] <kennyluck> annevk, should that actually include <frameset> to match document.body ?
  503. # [14:46] * kennyluck was thinking about this today.
  504. # [14:46] <zcorpan> no
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  506. # [14:47] <kennyluck> I haven't tested it, but that's a bit surprising. Anyway.
  507. # [14:47] <jgraham> That is like the fourth time matjas has said "mind = blown" in here recently. Does someone keep scraping the bits off the wall and reassembling them?
  508. # [14:48] <matjas> jgraham: probably not worth it
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  518. # [15:18] <Philip`> Hmph, it looks like people have started doing animated ads with HTML instead of Flash now, so I can't trivially block them :-(
  519. # [15:19] <StoneCypher> yeah, when you try to starve sites of the revenue that makes them run, they fight you.
  520. # [15:21] <bga> Philip` * { animation: none !important } ?
  521. # [15:21] <StoneCypher> :/
  522. # [15:22] <webben> Philip`: Really? Got an example?
  523. # [15:23] <Philip`> bga: It's not CSS animation, it's just JS moving things around
  524. # [15:24] <bga> ah. i disabled js in browser so never see it
  525. # [15:24] <Philip`> webben: http://www.eurogamer.net/ (especially the "This weeks [sic] top games" on the right of the page, which is very distracting when trying to read any nearby text) (don't know if the ads are location-dependent)
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  527. # [15:28] <annevk> argh
  528. # [15:28] <annevk> why does IE not support overrideMimeType
  529. # [15:28] <Workshiva> That would require supporting mime types to begin with :P
  530. # [15:29] <bga> annevk for what?
  531. # [15:29] <bga> binary data hack?
  532. # [15:29] <annevk> Workshiva: haha just dropping in at the appropriate times huh?
  533. # [15:29] <annevk> bga: testing euc-jp without much of a server
  534. # [15:30] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1400 intredasting
  535. # [15:30] <Workshiva> I'm always here, just not saying anything
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  539. # [15:33] <Velmont> Bah, -- firefox doesn't fire success event after upgradeneeded after a second opening of a datababase. It seems very wrong, -- but I'm not sure if I did something wrong in the test.
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  544. # [15:46] <annevk> well well
  545. # [15:46] <annevk> maybe I don't need to test IE
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  547. # [15:46] <annevk> for valid multi-octet sequences in euc-jp there's agreement between Chrome, Opera, and Firefox
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  549. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> annevk: btw we need tests for sandbox allow-popups behavior
  550. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> just sayin
  551. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> webkit and IE have both implemented it
  552. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> without a spec
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  554. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> so in order to make a proper spec we need to test it and see what we find
  555. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> jgraham: ↑
  556. # [15:53] <annevk> i'm not doing much with sandbox
  557. # [15:54] <annevk> ideally webkit/ie contribute some tests
  558. # [15:54] <MikeSmith> yeah
  559. # [15:54] <MikeSmith> but to be clear the spec work is blocked on that
  560. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> Hixie needs data in order to actually spec it out
  561. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> and I can write the tests myself if I need to I guess
  562. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> but really
  563. # [15:56] <annevk> oh did I make a comment about allow-popups somewhere?
  564. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> no, not you personally
  565. # [15:56] <annevk> my email to WHATWG was about script-opened links, unrelated to sandboxing
  566. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> my point is, when vendors unilaterally choose to implement something that's not in the spec, the least they can do is to provide cross-browser test cases for that feature
  567. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> because at this point it's yet another case of, We implemented this, now Hixie has to reverse-engineer what we implemented and make a spec for it
  568. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> which is fucktarded
  569. # [15:59] <annevk> no disagreement there :)
  570. # [15:59] <jgraham> MikeSmith: fucktarded it may be, but it is the traditional mode of operation :(
  571. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> yeah well
  572. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> it obviously doesn't scale
  573. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> one dude cannot be expected to single-handedly do that work
  574. # [16:01] <jgraham> In related news, the facebook mobile test thing that everyone got excited about links to a "feature" that has a Safari blog post for the "spec"
  575. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> jgraham: eh?
  576. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> which one?
  577. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> if that is the case, talk to Rick Waldron and have it fixed
  578. # [16:04] <jgraham> http://www.webkit.org/blog/176/css-canvas-drawing/
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  580. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> jgraham: and_
  581. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> jgraham: and?
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  583. # [16:07] <jgraham> MikeSmith: You asked which one. That one.
  584. # [16:07] <jgraham> Is there an actual spec for that?
  585. # [16:07] <jgraham> If so the test should link to it
  586. # [16:07] <jgraham> Anyway it's hardly the only problem with that test
  587. # [16:08] <jgraham> I thought maybe the Mobile Web Community Group were supposed to talk about this sort of thing but so far we had an argument about whether ipads are the only tablets
  588. # [16:08] <jgraham> Sorry "Core Mobile Web Platform"
  589. # [16:09] <jgraham> And afaik the code is still unreleased
  590. # [16:09] <beverloo> MikeSmith, already talked to him previously
  591. # [16:09] <jgraham> Although thegh do seem to have helpfully minimised the test code so its even harder to read than it was before
  592. # [16:09] <beverloo> it's intentional
  593. # [16:09] <beverloo> the test should "demonstrate what is relevant for authors"
  594. # [16:10] <jgraham> I would like to find out who these authors are, exactly
  595. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> beverloo: OK
  596. # [16:11] <jgraham> Although you would hope that something authors were actually clammering for would have gone from blogpost to draft spec in < 4 years
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  601. # [16:14] <jgraham> (In case anyone is listening and so that I can refer to the list later, rng.io also seems to be very confused about the perspective property, really really like Blobs and BlobBuilder - which will die, encourage implementation of old or prefixed forms, and have a really stupid scoring system)
  602. # [16:14] <jgraham> (there is probably more)
  603. # [16:16] <jgraham> (oh and it suggests implementing the details element, which I think should be gated on the WebComponents work, which isn't featured)
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  608. # [16:35] <annevk> preferences on how to display what is essentially a sparse array? (extended jis208)
  609. # [16:36] <annevk> I'm thinking something like
  610. # [16:36] <annevk> 0210 0xFF17 #textual representation of code point
  611. # [16:36] <annevk> so 4-digit index, tab, code point, tab, comment
  612. # [16:36] <annevk> index in decimal
  613. # [16:37] <annevk> index skips FFFD segments
  614. # [16:38] <annevk> per usual nobody cares?
  615. # [16:38] <annevk> in a kingdom of one...
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  622. # [16:48] <Hixie> MikeSmith: to be fair, two implementors implemented it (so it wasn't unilateral) and they did so after asking me to spec it (so it's not their fault there was no spec; i probably told them to give us an experimental implementation)
  623. # [16:49] <StoneCypher> Hixie: i just found out you also like The One True Tool
  624. # [16:49] <StoneCypher> Hixie: so a beer for you if we're ever in the same city
  625. # [16:49] * StoneCypher <3 princexml
  626. # [16:50] <Hixie> i don't drink :-P
  627. # [16:50] <StoneCypher> a coffee?
  628. # [16:50] <StoneCypher> ok.
  629. # [16:50] <Hixie> i don't do any drugs :-P
  630. # [16:50] <jgraham> StoneCypher: You should move rapidly to water
  631. # [16:50] <jgraham> Hixie is a cheap date
  632. # [16:50] <jgraham> ;)
  633. # [16:50] <Hixie> good fruit juices are more expensive than beer
  634. # [16:50] <StoneCypher> Hixie: An undefined desirable social beverage outing for you
  635. # [16:51] <StoneCypher> <hixie> I don't consume liquids
  636. # [16:51] <StoneCypher> point is, i just wanted to hurrah princexml fans
  637. # [16:51] <jgraham> Hixie: Not sure what constitues good, but that is mildly surprising (and almost certainly not true in scandinavia)
  638. # [16:52] <jgraham> (I'm mildly surprised it is true in california given the climate)
  639. # [16:52] <StoneCypher> jgraham: it is in areas where shipping is the dominant cost, because coffee beans weigh little
  640. # [16:52] <StoneCypher> also shelf space costs, etc
  641. # [16:53] <jgraham> I sort of imagine that in california you buy the fruit juice from organic farmer's markets
  642. # [16:53] <StoneCypher> i go to a good farmer's market and they never have juices other than cider there
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  644. # [16:53] <jgraham> But maybe we are comparing the price of good fruit juice in a pub/resturant to bad beer in the same establishment
  645. # [16:54] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  646. # [16:54] <StoneCypher> i think he meant at a juice bar like odwalla or jamba juice
  647. # [16:55] <Hixie> jgraham: how much would freshly pressed kiwi juice cost at your local bar, and how much would the same volume of your favourite beer cost?
  648. # [16:56] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@199.188.193.145) (Remote host closed the connection)
  649. # [16:57] <jgraham> Since I don't drink beer… (or alcohol in general)
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  651. # [16:57] <jgraham> I'm not sure one can get fresh pressed kizi juice easilly here
  652. # [16:57] <annevk> my favorite beer in Sweden prolly costs more
  653. # [16:57] <jgraham> *kiwi
  654. # [16:57] <annevk> at least last time it was about EUR 20
  655. # [16:58] <annevk> you should be able to get kiwi juice for less :)
  656. # [16:58] <Hixie> jgraham: the cost would involve paying someone to go buy some kiwis, skin them, and press them, and it takes a _lot_ of kiwis for a pint. and kiwis aren't cheap.
  657. # [16:58] <annevk> hmm yeah
  658. # [16:58] <Hixie> but anyway
  659. # [16:58] <annevk> :)
  660. # [16:59] <jgraham> I might accept that per ml kiwi juice is more expensive than many beers.
  661. # [16:59] <Hixie> my point is just that fruit juices, when treated the same way as other beverages, no longer seem like the "cheap" option
  662. # [16:59] <jgraham> (you probably want to drink less fruit juice though)
  663. # [17:00] <matjas> annevk: “strangely Firefox does it using "visibility: hidden", Opera accepts both ways, Safari/Chrome accepts none” — http://twitter.com/diegoperini/status/180320317238034432 interesting
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  665. # [17:05] <annevk> matjas: presumably because when you use visibility, layout still happens
  666. # [17:06] <annevk> matjas: whereas with display:none you don't generate a box and as optimization you can skip stuff (and they prolly skip applying background incorrectly)
  667. # [17:06] <annevk> but you know, that's guessing about implementation details
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  669. # [17:10] <annevk> ooh
  670. # [17:10] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  671. # [17:10] <annevk> jis212 is not entirely interoperable
  672. # [17:10] * Quits: yijun (~yijun@059148184190.ctinets.com) (Quit: yijun)
  673. # [17:10] <annevk> one minor difference between Opera and Gecko, and a dozen or so between Opera/Gecko and Chrome
  674. # [17:11] <annevk> well 20
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  678. # [17:12] <annevk> aah
  679. # [17:12] <annevk> difference between Opera and Gecko/Chrome is that Opera emits a normal tilde whereas Gecko/Chrome emit a fullwidth tilde
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  682. # [17:16] <Velmont> Nice discussion on drinks and stuff. -- I find it hard to find good, interesting stuff in bars etc since I don't really drink alcohol.
  683. # [17:17] <Velmont> Some places has exotic non-alcoholic beer, so I take that, -- but there's very little fruit juice going on. Normally only some sour non-fresh orange juice which I most decidedly don't want.
  684. # [17:17] <Velmont> But having real fresh stuff would be A+. I'd take that.
  685. # [17:17] <jgraham> I imagine that one advantage of living in California is that they actually have fruit
  686. # [17:17] <annevk> I never get much further than bitter lemon / tonic / cola in a bar
  687. # [17:18] <annevk> but then I like beer too
  688. # [17:18] * Parts: ksweeney (~Kevin_Swe@nyv-exweb.iac.com)
  689. # [17:18] <jgraham> Well, we have fruit too; Apples in the autum, strawberries for 2 weeks, raspberries for two weeks and blueberries for a while
  690. # [17:18] <Velmont> Yes, California > Norway there I guess ;-)
  691. # [17:18] <jgraham> It doesn't seem to be enough to have a fruit-based drinking culture
  692. # [17:19] <Velmont> Yes. Strawberries are very good though. -- Much better than the cheapo non-tasting stuff we get from spain, turkey etc.
  693. # [17:19] <jgraham> Indeed, soft fruits like cold climates
  694. # [17:19] <jgraham> Also, the varieties that last long enough to be transported are not the ones that taste good
  695. # [17:20] <Velmont> :-) -- I'm SO looking forward to summer. Has been so hot in Oslo last days, - early spring I hope.
  696. # [17:20] <jgraham> You mean as much as +10?
  697. # [17:20] <jgraham> :)
  698. # [17:21] * Quits: izhak (1000@188.168.76.44) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  699. # [17:21] <jgraham> (I think it reached +12 here which is crazy-warm for March)
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  701. # [17:21] <Velmont> jgraham: +17 in shadows on monday, used 1h lunch just sitting out in the sun. Niiice. -- Has been really sunny every day. --- BTW, that's actually the highest ever recorded in Oslo so early.
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  706. # [17:33] <jgraham> +17? Crazy times
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  709. # [17:40] <bga> http://pastebin.com/NKbnh8q8
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  711. # [17:51] <Velmont> Wat. Seems silly.
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  714. # [18:00] * Philip` wonders if they're aware that the IP addresses don't each correspond to a single server, they're pools of many servers spread around the world
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  716. # [18:01] <Velmont> Would think so, as it is very common knowlegde.
  717. # [18:01] <StoneCypher> assuming sophistication of an ill organized mob of script kiddies?
  718. # [18:01] <StoneCypher> i wouldn't.
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  732. # [18:48] <annevk> ugh
  733. # [18:48] <annevk> shift_jis to euc-jp is one ugly algorithm
  734. # [18:48] <annevk> and not even properly explained
  735. # [18:48] <annevk> it works
  736. # [18:49] <annevk> the CJKV book just explains the C code
  737. # [18:49] <annevk> not the logic
  738. # [18:49] <annevk> lame
  739. # [18:49] <annevk> i guess i'll just copy and paste to English
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  754. # [19:18] <TabAtkins_> annevk: re: the bug, presumably you're talking just about Selectors-in-JS, not the existing element() feature?
  755. # [19:21] <annevk> if select() takes an arbitrary Selector that seems kind of weird too
  756. # [19:21] <annevk> I think it's better if you keep in-tree and out-of-tree as separate concepts
  757. # [19:21] <TabAtkins_> When that happens, the alternate behavior will only trigger for a single id selector.
  758. # [19:22] <annevk> and especially keep Selectors only matching in-tree
  759. # [19:23] <TabAtkins_> I disagree, and would like to keep the feature as it's currently written. (It's awkward to do so, since bare idents look like tagname selectors...)
  760. # [19:23] <TabAtkins_> But I'm fine if the answer is "no, it shouldn't have any relevance to DOM".
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  764. # [19:28] <annevk> modifying Selectors to match out-of-tree elements sounds very much like the wrong approach
  765. # [19:29] <TabAtkins_> Shrug. It seems useful here, and it's what Mozilla is already doing.
  766. # [19:29] <annevk> I'm not sure if that is what's going on here though as I haven't really read the element() proposal
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  768. # [19:29] <annevk> that's not a very compelling argument to break a Selector invariant
  769. # [19:29] <TabAtkins_> So, short summary:
  770. # [19:30] <TabAtkins_> element() takes an id selector, and represents an image that looks like the referenced element.
  771. # [19:30] <annevk> next you're going to suggest we should let them match Text nodes :)
  772. # [19:30] * jwalden wants support for selectors that match comment nodes
  773. # [19:30] <TabAtkins_> Right now we phrase the out-of-doc thing as something that host languages can define.
  774. # [19:30] <TabAtkins_> But we may just make it explicit and put it into CSSOM or something.
  775. # [19:32] <annevk> it's very weird to have IDs matched outside the tree
  776. # [19:33] <annevk> there's no such feature currently
  777. # [19:33] <Ms2ger> element.getElementById?
  778. # [19:33] <annevk> Ms2ger: I thought that only matched in the tree
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  780. # [19:33] <annevk> it does
  781. # [19:34] <Ms2ger> Oh
  782. # [19:34] <Ms2ger> In the subtree rooted at the element, you mean
  783. # [19:35] <annevk> I mean it doesn't match e=document.createElement("test");e.id='x'
  784. # [19:35] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  785. # [19:35] <TabAtkins_> Strictly, element() *doesn't* match ids outside the tree.
  786. # [19:35] <Ms2ger> I meant that it does match elements that aren't in a document
  787. # [19:35] <Ms2ger> (On which the spec was wrong previously)
  788. # [19:36] <TabAtkins_> However, it an id selector didn't match an element, it instead consults the map.
  789. # [19:36] <TabAtkins_> Which can contain in-document or out-of-document elements.
  790. # [19:46] <annevk> Ms2ger: oh
  791. # [19:47] <annevk> TabAtkins_: I think it would be better to have a special look-in-map thing than this fallback magic
  792. # [19:47] <annevk> TabAtkins_: e.g. have element() for in-document and element-map() for this
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  797. # [20:07] <TabAtkins_> annevk: That seems silly to me.
  798. # [20:09] * Parts: ard_ (ard@dracul.kill.pl)
  799. # [20:16] <annevk> why?
  800. # [20:18] <Hixie> i have to say i do find it weird to have the #id mechanism match things by something other than the element's one true ID
  801. # [20:18] <Hixie> especially so soon after we've gone to the effort of erradicating all possible ways of having more than one ID
  802. # [20:19] <annevk> oh yeah, if there's a custom identifier it seems even more wrong to use Selectors
  803. # [20:19] <TabAtkins_> Shrug.
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  805. # [20:21] <rniwa> annevk, Ms2ger: regions spec apparently have flow change event or whatever
  806. # [20:21] <rniwa> that fires after flow changes :(
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  808. # [20:21] <Ms2ger> I sure hope nobody implements the regions cssom
  809. # [20:21] <Hixie> events from layout? lordy
  810. # [20:21] <rniwa> Ms2ger: webkit is doing that :(
  811. # [20:22] <rniwa> i'm trying to convince folks not to do it
  812. # [20:22] <TabAtkins_> We need some way to be able to refer to elements outside the DOM, it seems silly to add a second function with identical functionality just to do that type of referring, and leaning on the #id syntax appears to be the easiest way to merge the two functionalities together.
  813. # [20:22] <TabAtkins_> rniwa: Complain about it on www-style?
  814. # [20:22] <rniwa> TabAtkins_: i'm kicked out of www-style for some random mail deamon issue
  815. # [20:23] <TabAtkins_> rniwa: Ah, that sucks.
  816. # [20:23] <Ms2ger> It seems like there's more things wrong than right about that part of the spec...
  817. # [20:23] <TabAtkins_> Send the email to me and I'll forward it?
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  819. # [20:23] <rniwa> TabAtkins_: maybe.
  820. # [20:23] <rniwa> TabAtkins_: i'm hoping that people who are more familiar with the matter can comment on it
  821. # [20:23] <annevk> it's not identical functionality if you need a CSSElementMap etc.
  822. # [20:24] <annevk> it's very much a completely separate thing
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  824. # [20:24] <Hixie> yeah if we're adding a whole bunch of api surface anyway, what's a new selector
  825. # [20:24] <TabAtkins_> rniwa: I'm not familiar with the matter, so shrug.
  826. # [20:25] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  827. # [20:25] <TabAtkins_> Ms2ger: Details? I've been fixing odd corners as they come up, but there isn't much.
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  831. # [20:31] <TabAtkins_> Argh, I can't get my fingers to stop typing "cvs commit" when I mean "hg commit".
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  833. # [20:32] <Ms2ger> alias cvs hg
  834. # [20:32] <TabAtkins_> I was thinking about that.
  835. # [20:33] <annevk> Ms2ger: afaict http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/intl/uconv/ucvja/nsJapaneseToUnicode.cpp#205 is dead code
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  837. # [20:33] <annevk> Ms2ger: same goes for some stuff in japanese.map; also, http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/intl/uconv/ucvja/japanese.map#80 0x80 is not handled there
  838. # [20:34] <Ms2ger> Looks like it's called from the old HTML parser
  839. # [20:34] <Ms2ger> Not sure if it's dead yet
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  841. # [20:36] <annevk> o_O
  842. # [20:36] <annevk> that's some weird stuff
  843. # [20:36] <Ms2ger> The old HTML parser?
  844. # [20:36] <Ms2ger> Yes
  845. # [20:38] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  846. # [20:40] <annevk> TabAtkins_: if you're not interested in feedback you should not edit specs
  847. # [20:40] <annevk> shrug away
  848. # [20:41] <Ms2ger> Uh?
  849. # [20:41] <TabAtkins_> annevk: Uh, what.
  850. # [20:41] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16169#c5
  851. # [20:41] <TabAtkins_> Or let me put that more appropriately:
  852. # [20:41] <TabAtkins_> lolwut
  853. # [20:41] <TabAtkins_> I rejected your feedback because I disagree.
  854. # [20:41] <TabAtkins_> That's a perfectly normal thing to do.
  855. # [20:42] <TabAtkins_> As is attempting to focus a bug on the question at hand rather than a related tangent.
  856. # [20:42] <annevk> not if there's no argument
  857. # [20:42] <TabAtkins_> The argument was "I think it's fine, and it matches an existing implementation." Since your argument was "I think it's better this way", that seems about right.
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  859. # [20:44] <TabAtkins_> There's nothing technically wrong with the feature as specced; you disagree with it from an aesthetic perspective. That's not unimportant, but it does mean that it's hard to be "right".
  860. # [20:45] <annevk> it breaks an invariant of selectors
  861. # [20:45] <annevk> that's not aesthetics
  862. # [20:46] <TabAtkins_> But it doesn't.
  863. # [20:47] * hober agrees with annevk
  864. # [20:47] <TabAtkins_> Because there isn't any such invariant.
  865. # [20:49] <AryehGregor> If we're talking about #foo meaning anything other than "an element in the document with id="foo"", I also agree with annevk.
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  884. # [21:34] <jgraham> +1 on #id matching out of document being all kinds of wrong
  885. # [21:36] <smaug____> ID matching out of document sounds broken
  886. # [21:40] <TabAtkins_> Sigh. I strongly suspect the context is lost here.
  887. # [21:41] <TabAtkins_> In particular, I could just define that, for the purpose of selector matching, elements in the CSSElementMap are "in document" but are root elements following the normal document root.
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  889. # [21:42] <TabAtkins_> This is *not* about, say, creating an element with an id from script, not inserting it into the document, and then expecting document.getElementById('foo') to return it.
  890. # [21:42] <rniwa> AryehGregor, annevk: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81141
  891. # [21:42] <TabAtkins_> (I wouldn't go to that trouble, because there's no need to, but whatever.)
  892. # [21:42] <rniwa> fixing a mutation event bug resulted in a regression :(
  893. # [21:42] <rniwa> i.e. we can't implement mutation events as spec'ed. if we did, we break the web
  894. # [21:43] <rniwa> epic fail...
  895. # [21:43] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: fwiw my problem isn't with it matching things out of document, i think that selectors matching things out of document is fine, that the scope should be up to whoever is defining the selector context
  896. # [21:43] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: my problem is with ID selectors matching things that aren't IDs :-)
  897. # [21:43] <jgraham> TabAtkins_: You could define that, but I still think it is weird and wrong
  898. # [21:43] * AryehGregor agrees with Hixie
  899. # [21:44] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: What's wrong with defining more than just the @id attribute to provide an ID for an element?
  900. # [21:45] <Ms2ger> We just killed that
  901. # [21:45] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: we just spent a bunch of effort erradicating every last thing that allowed multiple IDs per element (ask anne and Ms2ger for why)
  902. # [21:45] <Ms2ger> Ask anne :)
  903. # [21:45] <TabAtkins_> I'd like some context, yeah.
  904. # [21:47] * jgraham also doesn't like the fact that the "same" selector matches different things according to context
  905. # [21:51] * Joins: demet8 (~demet8@67.8.186.94)
  906. # [21:51] <othermaciej> TabAtkins_: I think it would be super confusing for the id selector to match by something that's not visible to getElementById()
  907. # [21:52] * gsnedders agrees with othermaciej
  908. # [21:52] * Parts: demet8 (~demet8@67.8.186.94)
  909. # [21:52] <annevk> TabAtkins_: e.g. there was xml:id, DTD IDs, id="", etc.
  910. # [21:52] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f7329bf.pool.mediaWays.net)
  911. # [21:52] <annevk> TabAtkins_: now there's just id=""
  912. # [21:52] <TabAtkins_> annevk: Those all affected the DOM (or at least, were supposed to), right?
  913. # [21:53] <annevk> they were all ways to give an element multiple IDs
  914. # [21:54] <TabAtkins_> othermaciej, jgraham : I welcome suggestions on how to fit it into the syntax otherwise.
  915. # [21:54] <TabAtkins_> Note our current constraints: We expect element() to be extended in the future to accept arbitrary selectors (not just id selectors, as it does currently). We also expect it to be extended to accept urls as <string>s.
  916. # [21:55] <annevk> rniwa: breaking mutation events works for me
  917. # [21:55] <othermaciej> TabAtkins_: one possibility is to have a list, rather than a map, of out-of-document elements whose actual id attribute will be visible to id selectors, getElemetById(), and all other id lookup mechanisms
  918. # [21:55] <annevk> rniwa: the plan is to nuke them completely
  919. # [21:55] <rniwa> annevk: ok, thanks
  920. # [21:56] <annevk> rniwa: the more they become broken, the easier it is to convince people to use mutation observers...
  921. # [21:56] <othermaciej> TabAtkins_: I'm not sure offhand if that is a good idea, but at least it avoids multiple ids and selector vs. DOM divergence on what is an id
  922. # [21:58] <TabAtkins_> othermaciej: Interesting.
  923. # [22:02] <Hixie> that would also let us kill the csselementmap
  924. # [22:02] <Hixie> i'm always in favour of removing features without hurting use cases :-)
  925. # [22:03] <TabAtkins_> Well, it would kill it by replacing it with something else.
  926. # [22:03] <Hixie> can i just say that it is mildly confusing that what WebIDL calls sequences (sequence<foo>) is an Array and what it calls arrays (foo[]) is not?
  927. # [22:03] <TabAtkins_> With the "something else" being roughly equally complicated.
  928. # [22:03] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: i guess
  929. # [22:04] <TabAtkins_> The use-case I'm trying to hit is really important and needs *something* along these lines, no matter the syntax.
  930. # [22:04] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: makes your life easier though, since it would be css-independent
  931. # [22:04] <Hixie> makes my life easier too
  932. # [22:04] <Hixie> it would be anne's problem :-D
  933. # [22:04] <annevk> Hixie: I think sequence is not necessarily an array
  934. # [22:05] <Hixie> annevk: "IDL sequence<T> values are represented by ECMAScript Array values"
  935. # [22:05] <TabAtkins_> annevk doesn't think there's a use-case for it in JS (and I agree). The only benefit of making this visible to the rest of DOM is to make sure that element() selectors match the same elements that JS selectors do.
  936. # [22:05] <annevk> Hixie: oh I thought sequence stuff was for passing in arguments and could be anything array-like
  937. # [22:05] <annevk> hmm
  938. # [22:06] <annevk> I keep getting confused by Web IDL
  939. # [22:06] <Hixie> annevk: i'm talking about return values, might be different for receiving values
  940. # [22:06] <annevk> not good :/
  941. # [22:06] <annevk> I didn't know it could be a return value
  942. # [22:07] * Quits: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@mau49-1-82-245-46-173.fbx.proxad.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  943. # [22:07] <annevk> so sequences can only be returned from methods per http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#idl-sequence
  944. # [22:08] <Hixie> right
  945. # [22:08] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.13.244.getinternet.no) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
  946. # [22:12] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  947. # [22:14] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.245.90.191)
  948. # [22:16] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think the [] stuff should possibly be just made a synonym for sequence<>, if there's nothing actively using it
  949. # [22:16] <othermaciej> I don't think the [] fake arrays are very useful
  950. # [22:16] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.245.90.191) (Remote host closed the connection)
  951. # [22:16] <Ms2ger> But live stuff
  952. # [22:16] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  953. # [22:16] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.212.155.45)
  954. # [22:16] <annevk> othermaciej: actual JS Arrays can be mutated
  955. # [22:17] <Hixie> yeah i use the [] thing
  956. # [22:17] <annevk> othermaciej: which is problematic
  957. # [22:18] <annevk> othermaciej: I do agree it would be nice if it was all somewhat simpler though, but I don't know enough about all the constraints
  958. # [22:21] <jgraham> Seems like the nice solution would be to invent a time machine and add immutable arrays to js about 15 years ago
  959. # [22:21] <jgraham> Dunno how much it would help to do it now (except that immutable data structures are pretty nice in some situations ofc)
  960. # [22:22] <Ms2ger> Well, just immutable by script
  961. # [22:22] <Hixie> if you invent a time machine, i have some higher priorities for you
  962. # [22:23] <Hixie> even just within the scope of js!
  963. # [22:23] <Ms2ger> longdesc?
  964. # [22:23] <Philip`> If you invent a time machine you don't need to bother with priorities, you can just do everything simultaneously
  965. # [22:23] <Hixie> Philip`: depends how it works!
  966. # [22:23] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  967. # [22:24] <Ms2ger> But as it's unlikely we'll invent any kind, please go ahead and fix HTML bugs :)
  968. # [22:25] * Quits: timmywil (~timmywil@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  969. # [22:28] <annevk> if we do, make everything utf-8 only kthxbai
  970. # [22:30] * Quits: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB14C0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Bye, bye! See you on http://leanbackplayer.com)
  971. # [22:30] * Quits: snowfox (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: snowfox)
  972. # [22:35] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: rniwa)
  973. # [22:47] <annevk> http://www.ted.com/talks/rob_reid_the_8_billion_ipod.html
  974. # [22:49] <bga> http://www.opencalais.com/about
  975. # [22:50] <Ms2ger> http://www.catsguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/new-kitten.jpg
  976. # [22:51] * Quits: skylamer` (cgskylamer@78.90.213.55) (Remote host closed the connection)
  977. # [22:51] * gsnedders definitely prefers Ms2ger's link
  978. # [22:51] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@12.14.132.2)
  979. # [22:53] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@pool-71-184-234-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
  980. # [22:55] <bga> photoshop
  981. # [23:02] <jgraham> Open Calais? Presumably that's when there isn't a strike on in France
  982. # [23:02] * Quits: gwicke (~gabriel@212.255.42.187) (Quit: Bye!)
  983. # [23:03] <Ms2ger> One day a year?
  984. # [23:03] <jgraham> Oh, do they have a special holiday?
  985. # [23:03] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  986. # [23:07] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  987. # [23:07] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@12.14.132.2) (Quit: tantek)
  988. # [23:08] <Hixie> ok. let's talk dash styles.
  989. # [23:08] <Hixie> it's an array of lengths.
  990. # [23:08] <Ms2ger> Let's not :)
  991. # [23:09] <Hixie> odd lengths give the distance "on" and even ones the distance "off"
  992. # [23:09] <Hixie> odd-length arrays are doubles so you get the effect then the mirror
  993. # [23:09] <Hixie> e.g. 1,2,3 becomes -__---_--___
  994. # [23:09] <Hixie> so. zeroes.
  995. # [23:09] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Remote host closed the connection)
  996. # [23:09] <Hixie> we strip zero-length segments, so it's a bit like they weren't there
  997. # [23:10] <Hixie> 1,0,1,2 is like 2,2
  998. # [23:10] * Joins: sarro (~sarro@i5E8647C8.versanet.de)
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  1000. # [23:10] <Ms2ger> Is it?
  1001. # [23:10] <Ms2ger> Not like 1,1,2?
  1002. # [23:11] <Hixie> 1,0,1,2 becomes "- (zero-length off) - __" i.e. "--__" i.e. 2,2
  1003. # [23:11] <Ms2ger> Doesn't look like stripping them, then :)
  1004. # [23:12] <Hixie> zero-length line segments, not zero entries in the array, sorry
  1005. # [23:12] <zewt> collapsed/coalesced/whatever
  1006. # [23:12] <Hixie> i don't think we should throw an exception for zeros, since you could end up with them when you're just making a gap smaller and smaller
  1007. # [23:12] <Ms2ger> Go on :)
  1008. # [23:12] <Hixie> so what happens to trailing zeroes?
  1009. # [23:12] <Hixie> 1,0 => solid? or same as 1,1?
  1010. # [23:13] <Hixie> i'd say solid
  1011. # [23:13] <zewt> 1,1 doesn't make sense
  1012. # [23:13] <zewt> (from 1,0)
  1013. # [23:13] <Hixie> ok
  1014. # [23:13] <Hixie> so what does 0,1,0 become?
  1015. # [23:13] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: Yes, 1,0,1,2 shoudl basically look like 2,2.
  1016. # [23:13] <TabAtkins_> 0,1,0 looks like no stroke at all.
  1017. # [23:13] <zewt> what do odd-length sequences mean?
  1018. # [23:13] <TabAtkins_> zewt: Repeat the sequence once.
  1019. # [23:13] <TabAtkins_> zewt: So you get an even-length one.
  1020. # [23:14] <Ms2ger> 1,1?
  1021. # [23:14] <zewt> so repeat it before eliminating zeroes
  1022. # [23:14] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-wtfnkecrcaepvbqz)
  1023. # [23:14] <jgraham> You don't eliminate zeros afaict
  1024. # [23:14] <TabAtkins_> zewt: Yeah. You don't *actually* eliminate zeros.
  1025. # [23:14] * Hixie is planning on eliminating zeroes
  1026. # [23:14] <TabAtkins_> But zero-length segments are treated like they're not there, and Hixie defines dashes by cutting up a segment into lots of little segments.
  1027. # [23:14] <zewt> 0,1,0 -> 0,1,0,1,0,1 -> 0,2,0,1 -> 0,3
  1028. # [23:14] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: I suggest not doing something different from SVG.
  1029. # [23:15] <jgraham> Hixie: Zeros seem to be entirely non magical?
  1030. # [23:15] <jgraham> I mean they are just a segment of length 0
  1031. # [23:15] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: do they draw line caps between the segments in 1,0?
  1032. # [23:15] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: Let me check!
  1033. # [23:16] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: (are we sure svg drops zero-length path segments? so they can't do the "dash dot" effect with round dots?)
  1034. # [23:16] <TabAtkins_> How do I trigger linecaps here? You mean like having a path with an M instruction happening in the middle of a segment?
  1035. # [23:16] <Hixie> i dunno how svg does it
  1036. # [23:16] <Hixie> in canvas, you get a line cap at the ends of each subpath
  1037. # [23:16] <Hixie> depends on context.lineCap
  1038. # [23:16] <TabAtkins_> Okay.
  1039. # [23:16] <Hixie> or lineCaps
  1040. # [23:17] <Hixie> or something
  1041. # [23:17] <TabAtkins_> Same deal, then. an M starts a new subpath.
  1042. # [23:17] <TabAtkins_> Triggering linecaps.
  1043. # [23:19] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@ip-118-90-46-51.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  1044. # [23:20] <bga> <picture> is just kind a old <img> w/ lowsrc ?
  1045. # [23:20] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: but do they ahve them between zero-width gaps in dashed lines?
  1046. # [23:20] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: SVG drops 0s entirely:
  1047. # [23:20] <TabAtkins_> So "1 0" doesn't trigger any linecaps.
  1048. # [23:21] <Hixie> what does 0 1 do?
  1049. # [23:21] <TabAtkins_> No path displayed at all.
  1050. # [23:21] <Hixie> interesting
  1051. # [23:21] <Hixie> where is this defined?
  1052. # [23:21] <heycam|away> TabAtkins_, what's the example again?
  1053. # [23:21] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  1054. # [23:21] <TabAtkins_> I'm running off of Chrome's SVG impl right now. ^_^&
  1055. # [23:22] <heycam> "dropping 0s" doesn't sound right to me but I missed the exact context
  1056. # [23:22] <TabAtkins_> heycam: <path d="M 10 10 h 100 M 10 20 h 100" stroke-dasharray="10 0" stroke="black" stroke-width="5" stroke-linecap="round" />
  1057. # [23:22] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: oh i thought you were checking the spec :-)
  1058. # [23:22] <TabAtkins_> Let's see what the SVg spec actually says...
  1059. # [23:22] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: don't trust implementations on edge cases like this :-)
  1060. # [23:22] <heycam> that should mean round dashes of length 10 which overlap each other, I think
  1061. # [23:23] <heycam> overlap on the round bits
  1062. # [23:23] <TabAtkins_> Hm, wait.
  1063. # [23:23] <TabAtkins_> I may not be able to detect it with this case.
  1064. # [23:23] <TabAtkins_> Need some opacity.
  1065. # [23:23] <Hixie> or a corner
  1066. # [23:23] <Hixie> corner is better
  1067. # [23:23] <Hixie> opacity doesn't necessarily work, depends how the stroke is defined
  1068. # [23:23] <Hixie> and i don't know if svg is detailed enough about that
  1069. # [23:23] <TabAtkins_> Ah, true.
  1070. # [23:24] <heycam> if you make it stroke-dasharray="10 2" you can see the overlap
  1071. # [23:24] <heycam> i.e. you can see where the round bits are nearly completely overlapping
  1072. # [23:24] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, but that's easy.
  1073. # [23:25] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1074. # [23:25] <heycam> what's the problem with the 0?
  1075. # [23:25] <TabAtkins_> We need a way to detect the difference between "fully overlapping" and "no linecap at all".
  1076. # [23:25] <TabAtkins_> I think Hixie's right that a corner would work.
  1077. # [23:25] <Hixie> heycam: does svg say to cut the line at a zero-length dash, or does it let the line be solid?
  1078. # [23:25] <Hixie> no line cap with a corner is another way of testing it
  1079. # [23:25] <Hixie> since you'll have or not have a join
  1080. # [23:25] <heycam> it doesn't say to cut the dash if the cap overlaps it
  1081. # [23:25] <Hixie> if the gap occurs right at the corner
  1082. # [23:26] <Hixie> heycam: forget the cap
  1083. # [23:26] <heycam> but I doubt it says anything that detailed
  1084. # [23:26] <heycam> ok
  1085. # [23:26] <Hixie> heycam: i the line dash pattern is 10 on, 0 off
  1086. # [23:26] <Hixie> heycam: and you stroke a line of length 20
  1087. # [23:26] <TabAtkins_> Ok, Chrome at least *does* draw linecaps between segments separated by a 0 off segment.
  1088. # [23:26] <heycam> Hixie, yes...
  1089. # [23:26] <Hixie> heycam: and your line has a corner at distance 10
  1090. # [23:27] <Hixie> heycam: does svg say if you lose the join or not?
  1091. # [23:27] <TabAtkins_> <path d="M 10 10 h 40 v 40" stroke-dasharray="40 0" stroke="rgba(0,0,0,.5)" stroke-width="5" stroke-linecap="round" fill='transparent'/>
  1092. # [23:28] <TabAtkins_> The corner is rounded, indicating the linecap is respected. (linejoin is miter by default, and so would produce a sharp corner if the segments were merged.)
  1093. # [23:28] <heycam> sorry I'm confused :)
  1094. # [23:28] <TabAtkins_> SVG doesn't mention anything about coalescing segments, so it looks like we cal call Chrome's behavior compliant.
  1095. # [23:28] <heycam> ah the join
  1096. # [23:29] <TabAtkins_> heycam: Yeah, we're trying to tell whether a 0-length "off" segment causes the two surrounding "on" segments to coalesce or not.
  1097. # [23:29] <heycam> TabAtkins_, that corner is square in Firefox :)
  1098. # [23:29] <TabAtkins_> heycam: But the ends are round?
  1099. # [23:29] <heycam> yeah
  1100. # [23:29] <TabAtkins_> Then Firefox coalesces segments.
  1101. # [23:30] <heycam> interesting
  1102. # [23:30] <TabAtkins_> Which sounds like *more* work than just leaving it alone.
  1103. # [23:30] <heycam> this is likely to be differences in the underlying graphics libraries
  1104. # [23:31] <TabAtkins_> Could be, yeah.
  1105. # [23:31] <heycam> which are doing the stroking
  1106. # [23:31] <Hixie> ( http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1402 is a clearer test case)
  1107. # [23:31] <Hixie> hm, no opera on this machine, since i reset it the other day
  1108. # [23:32] <Hixie> what's the url to the opera nightly builds?
  1109. # [23:32] <heycam> no dot on my opera
  1110. # [23:32] <Hixie> i get no dot in safari either
  1111. # [23:32] <Hixie> or firefox
  1112. # [23:33] <Hixie> incidentally, svg does say "Any zero length subpath shall not be stroked if the ‘stroke-linecap’ property has a value of butt but shall be stroked if the ‘stroke-linecap’ property has a value of round or square, producing respectively a circle or a square centered at the given point."
  1113. # [23:33] <Hixie> not clear how you decide what direction the linecap should go
  1114. # [23:33] <Ms2ger> Heh, "shall"
  1115. # [23:33] <heycam> yes that's for subpaths though, not dashes
  1116. # [23:33] <Hixie> yeah, but it's an example of how svg and canvas differ
  1117. # [23:34] <Hixie> on an almost identical issue
  1118. # [23:34] <heycam> ok
  1119. # [23:34] <Hixie> oh there is an algorithm to determeine directionality
  1120. # [23:34] <Hixie> it's deep in another chapter
  1121. # [23:34] <Hixie> section F.5
  1122. # [23:35] <heycam> yeah that stuff really should be with the rest of the path stuff
  1123. # [23:35] <heycam> it's like a little afterthought added for tricky cases :)
  1124. # [23:35] * heycam must go out for a bit
  1125. # [23:35] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  1126. # [23:35] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@60.234.54.74)
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  1128. # [23:36] <Hixie> "If a dash has zero length, linecaps are still added if the stroke-linecap values round and square are used."
  1129. # [23:36] <Hixie> in 1.2T
  1130. # [23:36] <Hixie> well implementations seem to disagree
  1131. # [23:37] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, I was just testing that.
  1132. # [23:37] <Hixie> oh actually my test checks something else
  1133. # [23:37] <TabAtkins_> A dasharray of "0 10" should, by that line, draw a circle/square every 10px.
  1134. # [23:38] <Hixie> yeah
  1135. # [23:39] <TabAtkins_> Heh, ".01 10" works in Chrome, but ".001 10" doesn't. Yay precision!
  1136. # [23:39] * Joins: broquaint (~dbrook@78.47.79.137)
  1137. # [23:40] <TabAtkins_> So I think that zero-length "off" segmetns should still split up a path into two segments, for consistency with SVG.
  1138. # [23:41] <TabAtkins_> However, a zero-length "on" segment should act as normal for canvas (and have no drawing effect).
  1139. # [23:42] * Joins: weinig_ (~weinig@17.245.90.191)
  1140. # [23:42] <Hixie> consistency with the svg spec, or svg implementations?
  1141. # [23:42] <Hixie> i get different results in chrome, safari, and firefox for http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1403
  1142. # [23:43] <zewt> is the assumption that there's no hope of having the question answered by the svg spec and implementations reaching agreement? heh
  1143. # [23:43] * Joins: schnoomac (~schnoomac@melbourne.99cluster.com)
  1144. # [23:43] <Hixie> make that http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1404
  1145. # [23:43] <Hixie> 1403 is bogus
  1146. # [23:43] <TabAtkins_> zewt: It'll be answered in SVG2 if we file a bug now.
  1147. # [23:43] <Hixie> it's basically answered by svg now
  1148. # [23:43] <Hixie> implementations just don't do it
  1149. # [23:43] <Hixie> so the question is which should change
  1150. # [23:44] <zewt> i mean, the question of whether to match the spec or implementations
  1151. # [23:45] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.212.155.45) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  1152. # [23:45] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  1153. # [23:46] <Hixie> ooh, opera nad firefox agree
  1154. # [23:47] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.91.252) (Quit: othermaciej)
  1155. # [23:52] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.245.90.191) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1156. # [23:52] <Hixie> i guess supporting zero-length "off" dashes isn't hard
  1157. # [23:52] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.212.155.45)
  1158. # Session Close: Fri Mar 16 00:00:01 2012

The end :)