/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-03-20 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Mar 20 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:07] <Hixie> heycam: why are dictionary types not distinguishable?
# [00:08] <Hixie> heycam: is there no type checking beyond "is an Object" for dictionary arguments? i.e. no checking that fields are present?
# [00:17] <aklein> smaug____: not surprising...WebKit doesn't treat document fragments nearly atomically enough, I'm hacking on that this week
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# [00:18] <heycam> Hixie, that's right
# [00:18] <Hixie> :-(
# [00:18] <aklein> smaug____: I suspect that replaceChild may also be handled differently
# [00:19] <smaug____> ok
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# [00:51] <zewt> reading the indexeddb spec makes me :|
# [00:52] <zewt> If these steps are running asynchronously, return the created transaction and queue up the remaining steps.
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# [01:54] <zewt> do browsers ever actually encode *to* legacy encodings? (eg. does the encoding spec actually need to spec all that)
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# [02:04] <TabAtkins> No. No they don't.
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# [02:07] * smaug____ had forgotten how horrible insertAdjacentHTML is
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# [02:27] <sicking> smaug____: horrible in what way?
# [02:28] <sicking> hmm.. shouldn't it throw HIERARCHY_ERROR rather than NO_MODIFICATION_ALLOWED?
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# [02:31] <sicking> oh, and it's case insensitive :(
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# [03:32] <Hixie> TabAtkins, zewt: form submission?
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# [04:03] <zewt> Hixie: tested that, but broken HTTP caching decided to break the test
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# [04:04] <zewt> (apparently it's 2012 and apache still doesn't include the content-type as part of etag generation, or at least that seems like the likely culprit)
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# [04:09] <zewt> jesus. amazon spamming tons of requests in background tabs I havn't touched in days
# [04:10] <zewt> always nice when high-profile sites set nice, low standards for everyone else to meet
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# [05:03] <MikeSmith> Hixie: thanks
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# [06:55] <MikeSmith> amazing. http://my.opera.com/hallvors/blog/2012/03/20/debugging-maps-google-maps
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# [07:02] <heycam> who knows how Selection and Ranges work?
# [07:03] <heycam> wondering if my usage of range.setStart/setEnd is correct: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1527442
# [07:03] <heycam> I thought that would select the "e" from "hello ", but when I try in Firefox and Chrome I get the "there" selected
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# [07:04] <heycam> same thing if I translate it to html instead of svg, so I guess I am not understanding how ranges/selection work
# [07:06] <heycam> oh, since I've selected the <text> element, my indexes are child node indexes, not character offsets
# [07:06] <heycam> what a straightforward API ;)
# [07:07] <heycam> today's instalment of rubber duck / teddy bear debugging brought to you by heycam
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# [07:14] <MikeSmith> heh
# [07:15] <MikeSmith> heycam: I think AryehGregor
# [07:16] <MikeSmith> and rniwa some
# [07:16] <heycam> yeah
# [07:16] <MikeSmith> and maybe also Ms2ger
# [07:16] <heycam> oh well, problem solved
# [07:16] <MikeSmith> that's a nice phrase to hear
# [07:16] <heycam> ga
# [07:16] <heycam> *ha
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# [09:09] <MikeSmith> Hixie: can you point me at the JS code that does the "Loading slowly?" popup
# [09:09] <MikeSmith> hmm
# [09:09] <MikeSmith> I can't add it myself to the Overview.html pages
# [09:09] <MikeSmith> *page
# [09:10] <MikeSmith> ah wait
# [09:10] <MikeSmith> yeah I can now
# [09:10] <MikeSmith> Hixie: this is in the context of https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16442
# [09:11] <Ms2ger> Morning Mike
# [09:11] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: hej
# [09:13] <Ms2ger> I was looking for a component to dump https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14600 into earlier
# [09:14] <MikeSmith> hmm
# [09:14] <MikeSmith> no brilliant ideas from me
# [09:14] <MikeSmith> I can create a new component if we need one
# [09:14] <MikeSmith> "Orphaned"
# [09:15] <MikeSmith> "Friendless"
# [09:15] <MikeSmith> "Unwelcome"
# [09:15] <MikeSmith> "Unappreciated"
# [09:15] <Ms2ger> Oh, I like "unwelcome"
# [09:18] <MikeSmith> OK, now we need to decide on which WG
# [09:18] <MikeSmith> WebApps?
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# [09:22] <Ms2ger> Web Platform (other)?
# [09:23] <MikeSmith> OK
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# [09:26] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: OK, added
# [09:26] <Ms2ger> Thanks
# [09:26] <MikeSmith> with Description, "Features for which we have no specs whose editors are willing to give them a home."
# [09:28] <Ms2ger> :)
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# [09:31] <Ms2ger> See you
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# [09:35] <Ms2ger> Also, I've only owned the spec for Range/Selection, that doesn't mean I know anything about it
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# [10:06] <annevk> zewt: both URLs and form submission need encode
# [10:07] <annevk> zewt: e.g. create a page containing <meta charset=gbk><a href=?€>test</a> and see what it points to
# [10:07] <annevk> might not be the most interoperable example, but you get the idea
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# [10:16] <kennyluck> Why not just "Proprietary" :p
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# [10:26] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yeah Hallvord is a bit scary
# [10:26] <jgraham> Not to mention Google Maps
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# [10:33] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: you could add a noindex meta to the single-page version
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# [10:34] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: maybe the april date will be accurate after all...
# [10:40] <jgraham> We should rewrite the charter so we can only publish on April 1st
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# [11:15] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: hadn't consider noindex yet
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# [11:15] <MikeSmith> will try to set up the JS thing now
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# [11:18] <MikeSmith> jgraham, zcorpan : btw, I'm sure who "a colleague who has often enough beaten me to the goal post in analysis if we happened to look at the same issue" is
# [11:20] <jgraham> You are?
# [11:23] <MikeSmith> s/sure/curious/
# [11:23] <MikeSmith> I meant
# [11:23] <MikeSmith> no idea why that came out "sure"
# [11:26] <hasather> MikeSmith: Kåre Byberg
# [11:27] <jgraham> Yeah, not that surprising if you are familiar with the people involved
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# [11:30] <MikeSmith> hasather: thanks
# [11:30] <MikeSmith> I don't think I ever met Kåre
# [11:31] <hasather> MikeSmith: started working after you left I think (and he works from home)
# [11:32] <MikeSmith> ah
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# [11:34] <annevk> lol pub is deferred again
# [11:34] <annevk> circus is in town
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# [12:45] <MikeSmith> OK fwiw I added the fugly "Too slow? Try reading the multipage copy of the spec instead" thing to the W3C version of the single-page spec
# [12:45] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/single-page.html
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# [13:23] <smaug____> hmm, perhaps I wasn't connected
# [13:23] <smaug____> krijn: you said at some point that you may not be able to log this channel for long
# [13:24] <smaug____> krijn: there is now a backup http://logbot.glob.com.au/
# [13:26] <kennyluck> yay!
# [13:29] <charlvn> smaug____: cool, is that a custom implementation?
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# [13:30] <smaug____> charlvn: of what? I don't know
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# [13:30] <smaug____> I don't maintain it
# [13:31] <annevk> smaug____: so when you insert a DocumentFragment that fragment always gets a single record too right?
# [13:31] <krijn> smaug____: nice!
# [13:32] <smaug____> I just knew that glob had logs for some moznet channels and when krijn mentioned that he may not be able keep the logs working here, I asked glob ..
# [13:32] <smaug____> annevk: yes
# [13:32] <smaug____> annevk: nodes are removed from it
# [13:33] <annevk> I guess DocumentFragment needs a whole special path
# [13:33] <smaug____> probably yes
# [13:33] <smaug____> that is what I have in implementation
# [13:33] <smaug____> like there is special thingie for innerHTML
# [13:34] <smaug____> and textContent
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# [13:38] <annevk> hmm
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# [13:39] <annevk> so concept-node-insert needs to queue that if node is a DocumentFragment
# [13:39] <annevk> and it should probably use word different from append to move nodes around
# [13:40] <annevk> then pre-insert/insert/remove need a flag to suppress record queuing
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# [13:40] <annevk> and then replace/replace all need to use that
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# [13:41] <annevk> and queue their own stuff
# [13:41] <smaug____> in the implementation I have "MutationBatch" stack object around the document fragment insertion
# [13:41] <smaug____> the batch ends up creating just one record per observer
# [13:42] <annevk> and replace/replace all also need to take special care again of DocumentFragment
# [13:42] <smaug____> er, there is one batch for removal, and one for adding nodes to the new parent
# [13:42] <annevk> I thought you wanted them combined for replace?
# [13:42] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16373
# [13:42] <smaug____> ah, that can't be done in general cas
# [13:42] <smaug____> e
# [13:42] <smaug____> invalid but
# [13:43] <smaug____> bug even
# [13:43] <annevk> hmm
# [13:43] <annevk> why can it not be done?
# [13:43] <smaug____> because previousSibling/nextSibling could be wrong
# [13:43] <smaug____> er, hmm
# [13:43] <smaug____> am I wrong here.
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# [13:44] <annevk> not sure why they would be wrong
# [13:45] <smaug____> nm, I was thinking different case, when one is inserting a node which has already parent
# [13:45] <smaug____> that needs to create two records
# [13:45] <annevk> yes
# [13:47] <annevk> okay, lets try to make these edits one by one
# [13:48] <annevk> already feeling pain
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# [13:49] <smaug____> annevk: sorry
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# [13:51] <smaug____> after writing some tests for MutationObserver, if feels pretty neat API (if I dare to say that :) ) , and fast.
# [13:51] <annevk> smaug____: so if you remove everything from a DF, what are previous and nextsibling?
# [13:51] <annevk> null?
# [13:52] <smaug____> yes
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# [13:56] <Workmon> Hey annevk, you worked on CSSOM before. Do you know if element.style.foo is supposed to support !important as part of a value?
# [13:57] <annevk> that was not entirely clear I remember
# [13:57] <annevk> we were not sure whether setting it should map to style.setProperty or not
# [13:57] <annevk> and how
# [13:59] <Workmon> I was surprised to find that .style is overriden by author !important rules
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# [14:11] <zcorpan> .style is also author-level, just higher specificity
# [14:14] <annevk> so nobody missed thus far that the spec does not describe MutationRecord queing of attributeNamespace?
# [14:15] <smaug____> annevk: :)
# [14:15] <smaug____> hey, spec reviewing is hard
# [14:15] <annevk> turns out
# [14:15] <zcorpan> so you wouldn't get notified about namespaced attributes?
# [14:15] <smaug____> per spec
# [14:16] <zcorpan> that's a feature! :-P
# [14:16] <smaug____> implementations do support it
# [14:19] <annevk> ah nice, it's not too hard
# [14:19] <annevk> there's no namespace-based filtering
# [14:20] <annevk> it just needs to be set on the object
# [14:20] <annevk> piece of cake
# [14:20] <smaug____> I was thinking to add support for prefix:localName filters
# [14:20] <smaug____> but not sure if that is important enough
# [14:26] <annevk> given that people want to deprecate everything but name/value attributes, lets not
# [14:27] <zcorpan> can you currently filter for localName or qualifiedName?
# [14:27] <annevk> qualified
# [14:27] <zcorpan> ok
# [14:28] <annevk> attribute's name is the new qualified name
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# [14:38] <annevk> ugh
# [14:39] <annevk> maybe I should unsubscribe from the w3c process thingie
# [14:42] <annevk> anyway
# [14:42] <annevk> can pre-insert and insert be merged?
# [14:42] <annevk> and pre-remove / remove
# [14:42] <annevk> i guess it's kind of nice for replace
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# [14:56] <annevk> pre-insert does not need suppress
# [14:56] <annevk> not sure why I thought it did
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# [14:59] <charlvn> smaug____: ah ok, sorry was in a meeting just now
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# [15:16] <smaug____> does webkit have anything similar to gecko's window.dump() ?
# [15:17] <hsivonen> smaug____: console.log() maybe?
# [15:17] <smaug____> nope, that is annoying
# [15:18] <charlvn> never used window.dump but why is that less annoying than console.log ?
# [15:19] <smaug____> charlvn: because it prints out to the terminal (if a pref is enabled)
# [15:19] <smaug____> it is easier to process that data
# [15:19] <charlvn> ah i see, ok
# [15:20] <charlvn> i like firebug's handling of that (it allows you to neatly expand objects, etc) but that is only handy for certain types of debugging
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# [15:20] <annevk> man complex mutations to mutation algorithms are complex
# [15:21] <smaug____> aren't they
# [15:21] <smaug____> implementing that all isn't quite trivial either
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# [15:30] <annevk> ok I checked something in
# [15:30] <annevk> see e.g. http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-node-replace-all
# [15:31] <annevk> the only thing that might be wrong is transient observers because I still have no clue
# [15:31] <annevk> (did not bother getting a clue either)
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# [15:32] <smaug____> I'll review after lunc
# [15:32] <smaug____> h
# [15:34] <annevk> hmm food
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# [15:36] <annevk> is innerHTML defined in terms of http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-node-replace-all yet?
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# [16:08] <Ms2ger> annevk, yes
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# [16:19] <hsivonen> too bad mpilgrim doesn't blog anymore. it would have been interesting to see his comments on Mozilla's latest codec direction
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# [16:28] <annevk> sweet, so everything should be good
# [16:28] <annevk> although I guess I should go through the spec again checking everything that invokes mutations
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# [16:51] <zcorpan> annevk: why is it "node document" rather than "owner document"?
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# [16:56] <smaug____> is jarred ever here?
# [16:56] <smaug____> jarred nicholls
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# [17:52] <zcorpan> should we add onfullscreen* event handlers?
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# [17:57] <smaug____> dglazkov: I don't understand why templates need to be hacked in via components stuff?
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# [18:21] <annevk> zcorpan: it's also XMLHttpRequest document
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# [18:24] <zcorpan> annevk: i don't follow
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# [18:26] <annevk> aklein: did you pay attention to transient observers when reviewing?
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# [18:28] <annevk> zcorpan: that's mostly the reason
# [18:28] <zcorpan> annevk: node document and XMLHttpRequest document seem to have different definitions
# [18:28] <zcorpan> annevk: i don't see why that makes node document be called node document instead of owner document
# [18:29] <zcorpan> but maybe i'm missing something
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# [18:30] <annevk> they do?
# [18:30] <annevk> both are x document where a given document is associated with x in some way
# [18:30] <annevk> I don't really feel strongly about this, but that's the reason they are named similarly
# [18:31] <zcorpan> ah, ok, i see what you mean
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# [18:33] <zcorpan> i think that "node document" is still a weird name, and it's used in various specs (e.g. fullscreen)
# [18:33] <zcorpan> maybe "XMLHttpRequest document" is also a weird name, but i don't have a better suggestion for that one
# [18:35] <zcorpan> should i file a bug to rename node document?
# [18:35] <annevk> I kind of like it personally and renaming it is going to be pain, but I suppose we could do it at some point
# [18:36] <annevk> pain being make work, it's probably not that much effort overall
# [18:36] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
# [18:37] <dglazkov> smaug____: does http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/explainer/index.html help a little bit?
# [18:37] <smaug____> looking
# [18:38] <smaug____> dglazkov: well, why not get one thing done first
# [18:38] <smaug____> like shadow dom
# [18:39] <dglazkov> smaug____: what's the harm in having multiple tracks?
# [18:39] <smaug____> dglazkov: well, makes reviewing harder
# [18:40] <smaug____> no idea what parts of web components are in which stability level
# [18:40] <dglazkov> smaug____: how? you can review sequentially :)
# [18:40] <smaug____> and why they are all under web components
# [18:40] <dglazkov> smaug____: well, that's why in my update, I mention that shadow DOM is in the bug fix long tail mode. And that templates is just a first draft.
# [18:41] <dglazkov> smaug____: that's what the explainer doc explains, hopefully
# [18:41] <TabAtkins> Workmon: There was a discussion about !important in @style. I don't think we came to a firm conclusion (I can't find the discussion now) but I believe the consensus was not to allow it. (Or, perhaps, to allow it syntactically but have it do nothing.)
# [18:41] <smaug____> but why aren't they just very much separate drafts?
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# [18:42] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2012Mar/0076.html hmm
# [18:42] <dglazkov> smaug____: that's why they are. I am not sure how much more separate they should be?
# [18:42] <annevk> I wonder how to explain that CSS is not working that great...
# [18:42] <annevk> maybe just not bother is better
# [18:42] <smaug____> dglazkov: just remove the whole concept of "web components" :)
# [18:43] <dglazkov> smaug____: no :)
# [18:43] <smaug____> there are just separate proposals, which have little to do with each other
# [18:44] <annevk> smaug____: that's the opposite argument others made a while back...
# [18:44] <dglazkov> smaug____: sure. why is that bothering you?
# [18:44] <annevk> smaug____: then people were complaining the whole picture was not clear
# [18:44] <annevk> circles!
# [18:44] <smaug____> annevk: the whole picture is still not at all clear
# [18:44] <smaug____> I don't understand how templates are related to shadow dom
# [18:45] <dglazkov> smaug____: they aren't related directly. If you'd read the explainer, you'd know that both templates and shadow DOM are used by custom elements
# [18:45] <dglazkov> smaug____: they are building blocks
# [18:46] <dglazkov> smaug____: spec-wise, it will start coming together nicely when the custom elements spec is in place
# [18:46] <dglazkov> smaug____: I am ramping up to do that
# [18:47] <smaug____> ok
# [18:47] <dglazkov> smaug____: but first, I wrote a polyfill to try and play with what's already there: https://github.com/dglazkov/Web-Components-Polyfill
# [18:47] <aklein> annevk: just got in, catching up on the scrollback now...
# [18:47] <dglazkov> smaug____: it's essentially using the shadow DOM impl in WebKit and some minor js hackery to emulate templates
# [18:48] <annevk> aklein: kk, there's no rush, I'll look at this again tomorrow if there's any need to follow up
# [18:48] <dglazkov> smaug____: still working on that, but once it's solid, I'll try to write the whole thing as a spec draft
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# [18:48] <rniwa> AryehGregor: yt?
# [18:48] <AryehGregor> rniwa, yes.
# [18:49] <TabAtkins> smaug____: Dimitri's example shows off how annoying building the HTML for components is in pure JS. ^_^
# [18:49] <rniwa> AryehGregor: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81661
# [18:49] <rniwa> AryehGregor: for this bug, what's the correct behavior per spec?
# [18:49] <rniwa> AryehGregor: or rather, where is this behavior spec'ed?
# [18:49] <dglazkov> TabAtkins: the tab manager one? yep. That's crazy stuff
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# [18:49] <TabAtkins> Yup. Btw, thanks for reformatting it to look like HTML. I had to do that myself earlier just to see what it was doing. ^_^
# [18:49] <dglazkov> TabAtkins: that's this code by the way: https://github.com/dglazkov/Tabs
# [18:52] <AryehGregor> rniwa, AFAIK, keypress isn't specced anywhere in reasonable detail. I guess here is technically where it's specced: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#event-type-keypress
# [18:52] <dglazkov> before scoped styles, it was even more awful: https://github.com/dglazkov/Tabs/blob/c14c3e58a2cf0d0cce5aaa7d11ae48be1b25fbc3/tabs-control.js
# [18:52] <rniwa> AryehGregor: yeah but that doesn't tell us anything :(
# [18:52] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that's the problem. :)
# [18:52] <AryehGregor> There's no good spec for key or mouse events AFAIK, where "good" means "actually tells you exactly what to do".
# [18:52] <rniwa> AryehGregor: alright, I'm gonna start a thread on public-webapps then
# [18:52] <rniwa> AryehGregor: yeah
# [18:52] <rniwa> AryehGregor: we need that.
# [18:52] <rniwa> AryehGregor: UA behaviors don't agree at all in this area
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# [19:21] <dglazkov> smaug____: reminder -- review shadow DOM spec! :P
# [19:22] <smaug____> I should I should!
# [19:22] <smaug____> please give me some more hours per day
# [19:22] <zcorpan> just neglect sleep
# [19:23] <smaug____> aklein: ping
# [19:25] <aklein> smaug____: pong
# [19:25] <dglazkov> aklein: can you give smaug____ more hours per day?
# [19:26] <smaug____> aklein: about delivery order
# [19:26] <rniwa> TabAtkins: what do you feel if I proposed to add "auto" value to direction property?
# [19:26] <smaug____> aklein: I kind of like what you proposed
# [19:27] <smaug____> but the problem is that it adds a special case for microtask handling
# [19:27] <smaug____> kind of
# [19:27] <smaug____> handling a callback should be a microtask
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# [19:29] <aklein> smaug____: and you say "should be" because it avoids special-casing?
# [19:29] <smaug____> well, I don't like special cases. I prefer consistency
# [19:32] <smaug____> aklein: is there some case where the original behavior is really bad ?
# [19:32] <aklein> I'm trying to recall exactly where the special-casing of mutation callbacks came from
# [19:32] <aklein> the first thing that comes to mind is a sense of "fairness", sort of round-robin scheduling of callbacks
# [19:32] <smaug____> aklein: native calling JS is a microtask
# [19:33] <smaug____> so if there are observers A and B, and A's callback is called, end of microtask is when the callback has just been handled
# [19:33] <smaug____> the new behavior kind of make end of microtask to be after B's callback
# [19:35] <aklein> I think the issue is that you're thinking about the mutation observer invocation as the only thing that might happen at end of microtask
# [19:35] <TabAtkins> rniwa: What would it do?
# [19:35] <aklein> but really the whole algorithm is just one thing that runs at the end of microtask
# [19:36] <aklein> and should be thought of handling the case when it is called from within a callback invoked by itself
# [19:37] <smaug____> that is one way to think about it. But it isn't consistent how microtask works elsewhere
# [19:38] <smaug____> ok, html spec has that inconsistent behavior
# [19:38] <smaug____> aklein: I don't care too much about this though
# [19:39] <smaug____> I care a tiny bit more about case-sensitiveness of filter values ;)
# [19:40] <smaug____> ah, HTML spec is buggy here
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# [19:41] <smaug____> or do I need to read DOM4...
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# [19:48] <rniwa> TabAtkins: it would behave like dir="auto"
# [19:49] <rniwa> TabAtkins: right now, dir=auto is a weird beast that doesn't have a css equivalent
# [19:52] <TabAtkins> rniwa: Ah, kk.
# [19:53] <TabAtkins> We don't really like 'direction', though.
# [19:53] <TabAtkins> I'm not opposed to it, but 'direction' was a mistake.
# [19:53] <TabAtkins> And it's possible that the CSSWG will object to further extending it.
# [19:53] <TabAtkins> But perhaps not.
# [19:53] <TabAtkins> I dunno.
# [19:55] <zcorpan> i suspect that browsers that implement dir="" by mapping it to 'direction' today would want to use a css value when implementing dir=auto
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# [20:05] <rniwa> zcorpan: right.
# [20:05] <rniwa> zcorpan: right now, we have lots of code that deals with dir=auto :(
# [20:05] <rniwa> zcorpan: because the computed value still needs to be left/right
# [20:06] <zcorpan> ugh
# [20:06] <rniwa> and we need to sort of re-implement style resolution mechanism just for dir=auto
# [20:06] <rniwa> direction supports inherit, etc...
# [20:06] <rniwa> it's really annoying from implementor's point of view
# [20:07] <zcorpan> in that case i think we should add auto as a css value and drop the complexity
# [20:08] <zcorpan> even if the css wg doesn't want to spec it :-P
# [20:08] <zcorpan> but that's just imho
# [20:09] <TabAtkins> Sure, that's all a good argument.
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# [20:12] <rniwa> zcorpan, TabAtkins: okay.
# [20:12] <rniwa> i guess we can prefix and add -webkit-auto for now
# [20:12] <zcorpan> nooooooo :-)
# [20:12] <zcorpan> call it auto :-)
# [20:12] <Ms2ger> Call it -o-auto
# [20:12] <rniwa> Ms2ger: LOL
# [20:13] <Ms2ger> Or -proprietary-do-not-ever-use-this-in-production-code-auto
# [20:13] <gsnedders> Nah, implement -webkit-webkit-auto. All the cool kids use -webkit- prefixes.
# [20:14] <rniwa> Ms2ger: I think direciton: auto will be useful.
# [20:14] <rniwa> Ms2ger: since browsers already support dir=auto pretty well (so not much according to bidi experts but reasonably well)
# [20:14] <rniwa> Ms2ger: it's probably fine to just add auto
# [20:15] <rniwa> zcorpan: can someone add that to CSS3 writing mode spec?
# [20:15] <rniwa> i'm more than happy to file a bug but..
# [20:15] <Ms2ger> Yeah, suggest it on the list, the Cabal^WWG will get to it in 2035
# [20:16] <rniwa> Ms2ger: unfortunately i've been kicked out of www-style due to some mail deamon issue
# [20:16] <Ms2ger> I heard
# [20:16] <rniwa> and i'm reluctant to go through all the troubles to get back on it :(
# [20:16] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, can't you fix that?
# [20:18] <rniwa> filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16456
# [20:21] <zcorpan> rniwa: thanks. i don't know who the someone is, though :-)
# [20:25] <rniwa> zcorpan: seems like it's fantasai
# [20:26] <TabAtkins> Yes, fantasai is the one to bug about Writing Modes.
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# [21:13] <smaug____> aklein: finally I found the bug which caused failures in your or rafaels testTreeMirror.html
# [21:13] <smaug____> aklein: now both test.html and testTreeMirror.html pass
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# [21:13] <smaug____> (except I have the change to make filtering case-sensitive)
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# [21:18] <annevk> does the spec say attribute filtering is case-insensitive, because I would definitely consider that a bug?
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# [21:23] <smaug____> annevk: no
# [21:23] <smaug____> annevk: that is a bug in webkit
# [21:23] <smaug____> well, I say it is a bug, aklein disagrees :)
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# [21:26] <annevk> interesting
# [21:26] <annevk> well as long as nobody files a bug on the spec, it's a bug in WebKit
# [21:26] <annevk> but DOM APIs are generally case-sensitive, with a couple of exceptions
# [21:27] <smaug____> exactly
# [21:27] <annevk> so it seems better to stick to that here
# [21:27] <smaug____> and old DOMAttrModified requires case sensitive filtering (in the listener)
# [21:28] <annevk> does the case-insensitiveness depend on the node's namespace?
# [21:28] <annevk> though even it seems wrong
# [21:29] <smaug____> annevk: it depends on ownerdocument, I believe
# [21:29] <annevk> e.g. if you have <html:p TEST="" test=""/> you would not be able to distinguish between the two attributes
# [21:29] <smaug____> in HTML doc, case-insensitive
# [21:29] <smaug____> it doesn't really make sense to me
# [21:29] <annevk> is there an open bug in WebKit on that?
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# [21:30] <smaug____> haven't filed
# [21:30] <annevk> if you do, let me know, I'll add my +1
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# [22:04] <aklein> back from lunch, I see that the case sensitivity issue has been mostly settled :)
# [22:05] <aklein> annevk: but I wanted to clarify how WebKit's impl works, because I think there's a misunderstanding
# [22:05] <aklein> it's only case-insensitive if the element with the attribute is an HTML element in an HTML document
# [22:05] <aklein> if it's an XML document, then the filter is case-sensitive
# [22:06] <aklein> anyway, just wanted to throw that out there, I don't think I care enough to argue much further (and it's easy to "fix" in webkit, the implementation is clearly easier if it's always case-sensitive)
# [22:08] <annevk> I would personally prefer if we do not introduce more of it given that HTML actually generates a case-sensitive DOM
# [22:09] <annevk> the parser actively lowercases names when creating nodes and attributes
# [22:09] <annevk> that setAttribute() and such behave similarly is a legacy aspect of our predecessors not really knowing what they were doing :pdf
# [22:10] <annevk> oops, meant :p there
# [22:10] <aklein> ok, that's was smaug____'s argument as well, so I'll defer to y'all.
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# [22:12] <rniwa> aklein, annevk: I support making it case sensitive
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# [22:12] <rniwa> it's cheaper to compare that way :)
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# [22:13] <annevk> making rniwa's day by nanosecond perf improvements; yay
# [22:13] <rniwa> annevk: yeah, I don't like case insensitive comparison period.
# [22:13] <rniwa> it's confusing and has surprising effects
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# [22:16] <rafaelw_> annevk: so my concern is that webdevs will do observe(node, { attributeFilter: 'HREF' ])
# [22:16] <rafaelw_> and never get any indication why that does nothing.
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# [22:16] <Ms2ger> We can always warn about that :)
# [22:16] <rafaelw_> which is especially confusion because they would have markup that has <A HREF='FOO'>
# [22:17] <rafaelw_> or do anchor.setAttribute('FOO', 'bar');
# [22:17] <rafaelw_> and anchor.getAttribute('FOO') // returns 'bar'
# [22:17] <annevk> rafaelw_: I thought you argued earlier those kind of developers would use a library
# [22:17] <annevk> rafaelw_: we cannot both have this be a low-level and high-level API at the same time
# [22:17] <rafaelw_> and node.matchesSelector('[HREF]')
# [22:17] <rafaelw_> and that will work.
# [22:17] <rafaelw_> meaning, everything else they do seems to work, but this doesn.t
# [22:18] <rafaelw_> ms2ger, i don't see how we'll warn.
# [22:18] <rafaelw_> annevk: i don't think the library can do anything.
# [22:18] <Ms2ger> In the console when you call observe?
# [22:18] <annevk> a library can lowercase
# [22:19] <rniwa> rafaelw_: but attributeFilter isn't a selector list, right?
# [22:19] <rafaelw_> ok, then by that logic, why not just either lowercase all attributes in attributeFilter or throw an error if there are upper case?
# [22:19] <annevk> I think it's unfortunate we made querySelector case-insensitive
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# [22:19] <rniwa> annevk: yeah
# [22:19] <annevk> I think that was mostly because we had not figured out the new world HTML DOM
# [22:20] <annevk> (which is the same as the "XML DOM" plus some quirks)
# [22:20] <zcorpan> rafaelw_: what if you want to observe 'viewBox' on <svg> in an html doc?
# [22:21] <annevk> zcorpan: if we do it we'd do isHTMLDocument && ele.namespaceURI == HTMLNS
# [22:21] <zcorpan> annevk: ah yeah
# [22:21] <rniwa> annevk, zcorpan, rafaelw_: we could do case-insensitive comparison for html attributes inside a html document
# [22:22] <rniwa> but i'd rather not
# [22:22] <rniwa> it complicates the api
# [22:22] <rniwa> given that all attribute names and element names are converted into lower-case equivalent, i don't see why case-insensitive comparison is useful today.
# [22:23] <zcorpan> case-sensitive sounds good to me, everyone uses lowercase anyway
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# [22:23] <annevk> and there's actually problems with some of the case-insensitive stuff today
# [22:23] <annevk> while the HTML parser only does ASCII
# [22:24] <annevk> setAttribute also lowercases characters outside ASCII
# [22:24] <annevk> similarly Selectors are not doing ASCII case-insensitive
# [22:24] <zcorpan> maybe if somebody uses data-fooBar=baz and then observes 'data-fooBar', that won't work and might be confusing
# [22:24] <annevk> I think we can still fix that however
# [22:24] <rafaelw_> annevk: so i'd likely handle this exactly as you suggest in the library: lower-case the attributes.
# [22:25] <rafaelw_> this will have the effect of simply not supporting SVG documents or elements.
# [22:25] <zcorpan> annevk: that seems like bugs in setAttribute and selectors
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# [22:26] <rafaelw_> ms2ger: warning at observe() doesn't work.
# [22:26] <rafaelw_> at that point, you don't know what elements will ultimatley have mutations.
# [22:26] <annevk> zcorpan: yeah I haven't had time to research that and file the appropriate bugs yet
# [22:26] <annevk> maybe tomorrow
# [22:26] <rafaelw_> a document can be mixed with XML and html elements.
# [22:26] <annevk> because it really stinks
# [22:27] <zcorpan> rafaelw_: we can easily support svg by checking the namespace of the element
# [22:27] <rafaelw_> support *in what*?
# [22:27] <annevk> if this turns out to be a common source of problems, I think we can still make it insensitive then
# [22:27] <annevk> and otherwise libraries can just lowercase, because all attributes will be lowercase anyway
# [22:28] <zcorpan> rafaelw_: observe(node, { attributeFilter: 'HREF' ])
# [22:28] <zcorpan> rafaelw_: if we decide to go for case-insensitive there
# [22:29] <rafaelw_> annevk: expect XML elements, right?
# [22:29] <rafaelw_> s/expect/except/
# [22:29] <rafaelw_> zcorpan: I don't understand what you are proposing.
# [22:30] <zcorpan> hold on lemme read the spec
# [22:31] <rniwa> odd. i thought qualified attribute names preserve the case but apparently not :(
# [22:31] <rniwa> at least on webkit & firefox
# [22:31] <Hixie> if someone calls addHitRegion() with arguments that make no sense, what exception should we throw?
# [22:31] <Hixie> a new one?
# [22:31] <annevk> rafaelw_: yeah, I guess it would not work for SVG or some such, so you probably need to use a map
# [22:31] <Hixie> i don't see one for "your arguments are illogical"
# [22:31] <rniwa> all attributes on html elements are turned into lower-case equivalents
# [22:31] * Hixie considers creating a new SpockUnhappyException
# [22:31] <rafaelw_> "use a map"?
# [22:31] <annevk> viewbox->viewBox
# [22:32] <Hixie> or rather, SpockUnimpressedError
# [22:32] <annevk> :)
# [22:32] <Hixie> annevk: any suggestions?
# [22:32] <Hixie> NotSupportedError?
# [22:32] <annevk> I think minting a cool new one is fine
# [22:32] <annevk> but yeah, NotSupportedError works
# [22:32] <Ms2ger> Could use SyntaxError
# [22:33] <Hixie> SyntaxError seems wrong since there's no syntax here really
# [22:33] <Hixie> it's the semantics that are wrong
# [22:34] <Hixie> i'll use NotSupportedError unless you mint me a better one
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# [22:36] <zcorpan> rafaelw_: in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dom-mutationobserver-observe if target is in the html namespace and target's node document is an html document, ascii-lowercase the attributeFilter names
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# [22:38] <Hixie> heycam: why does the algorithm for converting a JS value to an IDL dictionary not take into account default values?
# [22:39] <rafaelw_> zcorpan: and what do you do if the observation is configured with subtree: true?
# [22:40] <rafaelw_> i.e. you directly observe the root of an HTML document that contains some SVG elements?
# [22:40] <rafaelw_> (and use subtree observation)
# [22:40] <zcorpan> rafaelw_: ah, that wouldn't work, would it. it'd need to lowercase in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-mo-queue-attributes instead
# [22:41] <zcorpan> rafaelw_: but then i think it is better to always be case-sensitive
# [22:41] <rafaelw_> correct. that's more or less the behavior currrently in webkit.
# [22:48] <rafaelw_> i don't really understand this idea that HTML is generally case-sensitive. what developer-visible behavior would suggest that?
# [22:50] <Hixie> XML, the DOM, and CSS are generally case-sensitive, HTML isn't
# [22:50] <Hixie> URLs, too
# [22:50] <Hixie> (are case-sensitive)
# [22:51] <Hixie> (HTML is a mess though)
# [22:51] <rafaelw_> Hixie, right. Not sure if you're following the Mutation Observers discussion. The question is whether attributeFilter should match case-insensitively against HTML elements in HTML documents.
# [22:51] <Hixie> oh, the element names are case-sensitive, sure
# [22:51] <Hixie> they're always lowercase, specifically
# [22:51] <Hixie> but that's not HTML
# [22:51] <Hixie> that's the DOM
# [22:52] <rafaelw_> the issue is attribute names
# [22:52] <Hixie> same with attribute names
# [22:52] <Hixie> HTML attribute names are always lowercase, SVG's are mixed
# [22:52] <Hixie> they're all case-sensitive though in the DOM
# [22:53] <Hixie> i don't see why you'd be case-insensitive there, that's not HTML
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# [22:57] <zcorpan> Hixie: getAttribute, setAttribute, removeAttribute, hasAttribute all case-fold to lowercase for html elements in html docs
# [22:57] <rafaelw_> I understand that's how the DOM is spec'd. It seems to me that the behavior of HTML appears to case-insensitive.
# [22:58] <Hixie> zcorpan: yeah but they're wacked
# [22:58] <zcorpan> Hixie: that's a different argument :-)
# [22:58] <rafaelw_> hixie: what's not wacked?
# [22:58] <Hixie> rafaelw_: there are apis that are historically case-insensitive, i'll grant you
# [22:58] <rafaelw_> i.e. if i'm a web-developer, what API would suggest to me that HTML APIS are case-sensitive
# [22:58] <Hixie> the main reason i wouldn't go there as a spec author is that it is a huge pain to maintain apis that are sometimes case-sensitive
# [22:58] <Hixie> people like zcorpan find bugs in those apis for months
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# [22:59] <zcorpan> why does http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dom-element-getelementsbytagname seems confused about localName and qualifiedName
# [22:59] <zcorpan> er
# [22:59] <Hixie> case in point ^
# [22:59] <zcorpan> s/why does//
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# [23:05] <rafaelw_> Hixie: getElementsByTagName is your example to my question above?
# [23:06] <Hixie> no, it's my example of zcorpan finding bugs for months in apis that try to be clever
# [23:09] <rafaelw_> sorry if i'm being difficult. i'm trying to understand the objection to being case-insensitive in the common case (HTML elements in HTML document).
# [23:09] <rafaelw_> I'm not clear if the argument is that it's bad behavior, if it's prone to produce bugs?
# [23:10] <Hixie> i don't really object, as spec writer you do what you think is best :-)
# [23:10] <Hixie> i'm just saying that from one spec writer to another, your life will be easier if you make it case-sensitive
# [23:10] <rafaelw_> Ok. I get that. I'm fine having my life be more difficult if it results in a better API. that seems like my job.
# [23:10] <Hixie> the underlying infrastructure is case-sensitive, so any case-insensitive logic has to be layered on top of that
# [23:11] <rafaelw_> it's already implemented in webkit. it's possible there are bugs, but the implementation seems simple enough (and doesn't have a perf cost in the common case).
# [23:12] <zcorpan> this should be pretty simple to get right i think
# [23:12] <smaug____> I don't see any reason for case-insensitive filters
# [23:12] <smaug____> this is new API
# [23:12] <smaug____> and even with the old mutation events one needs to use case-sensitive comparisons
# [23:13] <rafaelw_> the reason is that it'll be surprising that it's *not* case sensitive. it will silently fail.
# [23:13] <smaug____> (when filtering attributes in DOMAttrModified listener)
# [23:13] <smaug____> why would anyone use uppercase attr names as filters when dealing with HTML doc?
# [23:14] <smaug____> it the API clearly says that it is not case sensitive
# [23:14] <zcorpan> smaug____: they might use an attribute data-fooBar="" in the markup and observe for "data-fooBar"
# [23:14] <smaug____> DOMAttrModified isn't case-insensitive
# [23:15] <smaug____> zcorpan: that is just a bug
# [23:15] <Hixie> is anyone arguing that the api should be case-insensitive for svg?
# [23:15] <Hixie> or mathml?
# [23:15] <rafaelw_> nope.
# [23:15] <Hixie> if not, why not? it seems like most arguments for html would apply to those too
# [23:16] <Hixie> (other than consistency with the wacked api entry points)
# [23:16] <zcorpan> smaug____: still, it's probably a surprise to an author who does it and doesn't know the details of html/dom case sensitivity
# [23:16] <Hixie> (but they're already inconsistent with others)
# [23:16] <rafaelw_> can we just stop for a second.
# [23:16] <rafaelw_> every keeps saying "wacked" API.
# [23:16] <rniwa> rafaelw_, smaug____, zcorpan: my expectation is that anyone who's good enough to use new mutation observer api would know that all html attributes are converted into lowercase names
# [23:16] <rafaelw_> can someone give me an example of NON-wacked api?
# [23:16] <Hixie> on the web? is that a trick question? :-)
# [23:16] <rniwa> and if they don't, then they're good enough to write tests to figure it out themselves
# [23:17] <smaug____> rniwa: indeed
# [23:17] <rafaelw_> i'm trying to make the point that webdevs expectation is that HTML DOM apis are case-insensitive.
# [23:17] <smaug____> rafaelw_: they are not
# [23:17] <rafaelw_> querySelector behaves to be
# [23:17] <rafaelw_> setAttribute
# [23:17] <smaug____> some APIs convert parameter to lowercase or uppercase
# [23:17] <rafaelw_> hasAttribute
# [23:17] <rniwa> i guess i've lived in pure XML world too long
# [23:17] <Hixie> Element.namespaceURI, .prefix, .localName all return the internal case
# [23:18] <smaug____> MutationObserver is a new API
# [23:18] <Hixie> .className and getElementsByClassName() are case-sensitive
# [23:18] <zcorpan> Hixie: nobody uses those
# [23:18] <Hixie> speak for yourself
# [23:18] <rniwa> smaug____, Hixie, zcorpan: i think it makes sense for it be case insensitive if we're going to support simple selectors in the future
# [23:18] <rafaelw_> yes. but for all of those, the DOM has forced as case for the storage of the names
# [23:18] <Hixie> setAttributeNS() seems to be case-sensitive too
# [23:18] <zcorpan> no, i speak for web developers at large, not for myself or for you :-)
# [23:18] <rafaelw_> so the effect appears to be that they are case-insensitive.
# [23:18] <Hixie> rafaelw_: ?
# [23:19] <rafaelw_> div = document.createElement('div');
# [23:19] <zcorpan> className and getElementsByClassName are case-sensitive in selectors as well, so authors are used to that
# [23:19] <Hixie> rafaelw_: createElementNS() doesn't lowercase anything
# [23:19] <rafaelw_> div.tagName; // 'DIV"
# [23:20] <rafaelw_> no one uses createElementNS
# [23:20] <Hixie> rafaelw_: div.localName; // 'div'
# [23:20] <rniwa> Hixie: btw, i've just realized that all attributes on an html element (even ones with namespace) will be have lowercase names.
# [23:20] <Hixie> rafaelw_: no one uses mutation observers either
# [23:20] <rniwa> Hixie: and i think that's rather unintuitive...
# [23:20] <Hixie> rniwa: text/html HTML elements don't have namespaces
# [23:20] <rafaelw_> I never knew there was a 'localName'
# [23:21] <Hixie> rafaelw_: you asked for apis that aren't wacked. i'm letting you know that dom core has plenty of apis that are case-sensitive. whether you know about them or not doesn't change the api...
# [23:21] * smaug____ uses localName all the time
# [23:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: we could make localName preserve case precisely because nobody used it
# [23:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: if people had used it, we would be forced to make it return uppercase
# [23:21] <Hixie> zcorpan: and we did it because it's a better thing to do, right?
# [23:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: yeah
# [23:21] <Hixie> zcorpan: i rest my case :-)
# [23:21] <zcorpan> since otherwise it's not possible to get the real case of an element
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# [23:22] <Hixie> if we make mutation observers canonicalise case for filters of HTML elements, there'd be no way to catch changes to attributes that aren't lowercase
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# [23:23] <zcorpan> right
# [23:23] <Hixie> anyway i think this is up to rafaelw_ to decide. there are arguments on both sides.
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# [23:23] <Hixie> personally i think clever apis tend to cost more than they're worth on the long run
# [23:24] <Hixie> but despite that i'm always making "clever" apis
# [23:24] <smaug____> (why is it up to rafaelw_ to decide ? )
# [23:24] <Hixie> smaug____: isn't he writing the spec?
# [23:24] <Hixie> so i can certainly understand the attraction here
# [23:24] <smaug____> no
# [23:24] <Hixie> smaug____: oh. who is?
# [23:25] <zcorpan> it's part of dom4
# [23:25] <rniwa> Hixie: i think aklein wrote some draft and then annevk merged it into dom 4
# [23:25] <Hixie> well imho it's up to whoever is writing the spec, whoever that is :-)
# [23:25] <rniwa> Hixie: AryehGregor and annevk's call then :)
# [23:25] <Hixie> (and then up to the implementors to decide if that makes sense, of course)
# [23:25] <rniwa> also Ms2ger's
# [23:26] <Hixie> should be one person's call as far as the spec goes
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# [23:26] <Hixie> having co-editors means blame gets split, which reduces accountability
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# [23:29] <smaug_____> nice, this laptop suddenly decided to ask PUK
# [23:30] <smaug_____> Hixie: anne has been updating the spec, and aklein wrote some of it, and I designed large part of it with rafaelw_ and aklein
# [23:32] <rafaelw_> i don't really care to die on this hill. it just seems like it's convenient for us and makes life harder for webdevs.
# [23:32] <rafaelw_> i'm fine letting anne make the call.
# [23:34] <rafaelw_> FWIW, for libraries (like mutation observers), if the behavior is always case-sensitive, then the sane thing to do is to simply lower-case the attributeFilter if the doc is HTML
# [23:34] <rafaelw_> which will fail to handle the case of SVG or MATHML elements in an HTML document.
# [23:35] <zcorpan> rafaelw_: yeah that's a good argument to let browsers do the case folding
# [23:36] <Hixie> rafaelw_: honestly i don't understand why any authors would ever pass in uppercase attribute names here
# [23:36] <Hixie> rafaelw_: (why would a library wrap this api? is the api not usable directly?)
# [23:37] <smaug_____> if one really needs to handle attrs case-insentively, it is always possible to filter records in the callback
# [23:37] <rafaelw_> my experience of webdevs is that they think that all of HTML is case-insensitive.
# [23:37] <smaug_____> insensitively
# [23:37] <TabAtkins> That is my experience as a webdev.
# [23:37] <Hixie> we should transition them away from that viewpoint, since that viewpoint doesn't match reality and will just cause them bugs
# [23:38] <rafaelw_> hixie: http://code.google.com/p/mutation-summary/
# [23:40] <Hixie> rafaelw_: do you lowercase the inputs in that api?
# [23:40] <rafaelw_> smaug: to do that, you'd have to take the input attributeFilter, wrap it, and output an attributeFilter that had every permutation of lower-vs-upper-case.
# [23:40] <rafaelw_> not yet. i'm saying, i'll probably make that change if we make this one.
# [23:41] <Hixie> lame
# [23:41] <Hixie> :-P
# [23:41] <rafaelw_> i think our leverage to "push" webdevs to do anything next to nothing.
# [23:42] <smaug_____> rafaelw_: why. JS filter could work just like your C++ filter
# [23:42] <smaug_____> keep too lists, case-sensitive and lowercase
# [23:42] <smaug_____> attributes in HTML are lowercase
# [23:43] <smaug_____> so filtering would be fast
# [23:43] <rniwa> +1 to Hixie's idea of transitioning them to the new view point
# [23:44] <rafaelw_> smaug: that's true, actually.
# [23:44] <rafaelw_> that would probably work.
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# [23:45] <rniwa> btw, i think changing the spec later to support insensitive comparison is a fairly safe change to make
# [23:45] <rniwa> so if enough people complain when this api becomes more widely known
# [23:45] <rniwa> then we should be able to change
# [23:47] <smaug____> rafaelw_: btw, do you remember if the spec for innerHTML has been updated to support MutationObserver
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# [23:48] <rniwa> smaug____: it doesn't support now?
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# [23:48] <smaug____> rniwa: the batching part might need some tweaking
# [23:49] <smaug____> I mean that all the removed nodes end up to .removedNodes, and new nodes to .addedNodes
# [23:49] <aklein> smaug____: looks like it uses "replace all"
# [23:49] <aklein> http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html#innerhtml
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# [23:49] <rniwa> smaug____: that sounds reasonable to me.
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# [23:50] <aklein> smaug____: so it should work
# [23:50] <rniwa> smaug____: why do we want a different behavior here?
# [23:50] <smaug____> aklein: ah, good. (replace all was broken in DOM4 still yesterday :) )
# [23:51] <smaug____> rniwa: what different behavior
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# [23:54] <rniwa> smaug____: so i just got confused by your question.
# [23:54] <rniwa>
# [23:54] <rniwa> smaug____: i thought you were proposing to do something special for innerHTML
# [23:54] <rniwa> smaug____: as it's not the case, we're on the same page here
# [23:54] <smaug____> good :)
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# [23:57] <rafaelw_> smaug:
# [23:58] <rniwa> smaug____, Hixie: odd, i thought there was a way to obtain a fully qualified name of a html element but i can't find any api for that :\
# [23:58] <rafaelw_> hixie: annevk: ok. i yield. smaug_'s suggestion is a good one. i'll just support this at the library level.
# [23:59] * Joins: FACEFOX (~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net)
# Session Close: Wed Mar 21 00:00:00 2012

The end :)