/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-03-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Mar 23 00:00:02 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <roc> did we enable global scope pollution for standards-mode documents?
  4. # [00:03] <roc> oh, I see we did
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  47. # [01:44] <rniwa> TabAtkins, Hixie: yt?
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  118. # [06:16] <mustang89> holy crap i didn't even know mirc was around still looks like it did in 99
  119. # [06:16] <mustang89> almost
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  148. # [07:56] <zcorpan> should the whitespace after the image in the second row be collapsed per spec? http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1417
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  150. # [07:56] <Hixie> white-space:normal?
  151. # [07:57] <Hixie> if so, yes, white space at the end of the line is collapsed in 'normal'
  152. # [07:57] <Hixie> see css2.1 bottom of section 10, iirc
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  154. # [07:59] <zcorpan> i don't see anything about this in section 10
  155. # [08:00] <Bhanu> what is irc?
  156. # [08:00] <Bhanu> I saw it first time
  157. # [08:01] <Bhanu> can anyone tell me
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  159. # [08:01] <Bhanu> what is irc?
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  162. # [08:03] <zcorpan> Hixie: "Each tab (U+0009), carriage return (U+000D), or space (U+0020) character surrounding a linefeed (U+000A) character is removed if 'white-space' is set to 'normal', 'nowrap', or 'pre-line'." (in 16.6.1)?
  163. # [08:03] <zcorpan> Bhanu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC
  164. # [08:05] <zcorpan> oh, no, it's "If a space (U+0020) at the end of a line has 'white-space' set to 'normal', 'nowrap', or 'pre-line', it is also removed."
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  166. # [08:07] <zcorpan> hmm. there was a site relying on it *not* being collapsed (and firefox doesn't collapse it). at least in almost standards mode/quirks mode.
  167. # [08:08] <zcorpan> wonder if we should try to follow webkit/spec and break the site or specify not to collapse it in almost/quirks
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  169. # [08:11] <Bhanu> thanks zcorpan
  170. # [08:13] <zcorpan> np Bhanu, and welcome
  171. # [08:14] <zcorpan> what brought you here?
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  175. # [08:38] <annevk> was it some kind of special day yesterday? no new email
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  178. # [08:51] <Bhanu> sorry to delay... zcorpan. I brought to here by reading a book named "HTML5 for web designer"
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  193. # [09:33] <zcorpan> so about the global scope pollution thing, would it be a reasonable compat compromize to limit it to quirks mode *and almost standards mode* ?
  194. # [09:35] <Ms2ger> Currently the table thing is the only limited quirk, right?
  195. # [09:35] <zcorpan> the line height calculation quirk, yeah
  196. # [09:36] <annevk> still no answer from anyone http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2011JulSep/0153.html
  197. # [09:36] <annevk> meh
  198. # [09:37] <hsivonen> zcorpan: seems like a slippery slope to let Almost Standards and Standards diverge some more
  199. # [09:37] <annevk> same: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2011OctDec/0265.html
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  202. # [09:38] <annevk> guess I'll just file bugs on those too
  203. # [09:38] <zcorpan> hsivonen: maybe. but if the choice is that and having global scope pollution in standards mode...
  204. # [09:38] <Ms2ger> Meh, I think EnforceRange is silly
  205. # [09:38] <annevk> you can say so in the bug
  206. # [09:39] <zcorpan> annevk: i think we should allow manipulation of xmlns attributes and let namespace algorithms do what they do (i.e. don't try to prevent people to shoot themselves in the foot)
  207. # [09:40] <annevk> do what they do?
  208. # [09:40] <annevk> not sure they look at xmlns attributes now
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  210. # [09:41] <zcorpan> i thought they do, but i never researched the namespace algorithms properly
  211. # [09:42] <zcorpan> lookupPrefix i think looks at xmlns attributes
  212. # [09:42] <zcorpan> in some impls at least
  213. # [09:43] <zcorpan> per spec as well it seems
  214. # [09:45] <zcorpan> annevk: note that the html parser can produce namespace declarations that are wrong, so we're not making sure the tree doesn't have wrong namespace declarations by restricting setAttribute*
  215. # [09:46] <zcorpan> e.g. <svg xmlns="foo">
  216. # [09:46] <annevk> Ms2ger: fyi, just filing these bugs so I don't have to keep track of the email anymore, I don't actually believe we should fix all of them
  217. # [09:46] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  218. # [09:46] <annevk> inbox <250 teehee
  219. # [09:46] <Ms2ger> 90
  220. # [09:47] <annevk> zcorpan: the spec does not look at the namespace of xmlns?
  221. # [09:48] <annevk> hmm nope
  222. # [09:48] <annevk> bug?
  223. # [09:50] <zcorpan> i think we should do the minimal set of checks that work when the attributes are correct
  224. # [09:50] <zcorpan> and let the result be bogus when they are not correct
  225. # [09:51] <zcorpan> just like we don't care about innerHTML making sense when modifying the tree in a way that text/html cannot represent
  226. # [09:55] <annevk> i guess that's fair
  227. # [09:55] <annevk> so, does it match implementations? :)
  228. # [09:56] <zcorpan> last time i checked impls aren't anal about keeping namespace declarations correct
  229. # [09:56] <zcorpan> but with little interop
  230. # [09:57] <annevk> serializing will also be a bitch :/
  231. # [09:58] <zcorpan> serializing should rewrite namespace prefixes to match the actual namespaces, iirc. but yeah, that's a bitch
  232. # [09:59] <zcorpan> and browsers don't actually do that last i checked :-)
  233. # [09:59] <annevk> I think Gecko might
  234. # [09:59] <annevk> but that still leaves namespaceless xmlns
  235. # [09:59] <annevk> meh
  236. # [09:59] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, a spec for that would be appreciated :)
  237. # [10:00] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: i'll try to finish this quirk thing first :-P
  238. # [10:01] <Ms2ger> I guess that's fair
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  253. # [10:51] <jgraham> zcorpan: Is there any evidence that almost-standards mode covers a significant fraction of the sites that depend on the quirk?
  254. # [10:51] <jgraham> (the global scope polluter, I mean)
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  266. # [11:02] <zcorpan> jgraham: no. though i haven't seen any evidence about standards mode usage, either, apart from the demo
  267. # [11:03] <zcorpan> all i know so far is adrian saying "i think this will break many sites in IE"
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  280. # [11:34] <zcorpan> matjas: why do you have a mapping for zero width space?
  281. # [11:35] <matjas> zcorpan: surprisingly, i need it quite frequently. mostly when tweeting e.g. @font-face without turning it into a mention
  282. # [11:36] <matjas> zcorpan: it also makes it a bit easier to test js-escapes and css-escapes for white space edge cases (although i still need https://github.com/mathiasbynens/dotfiles/blob/master/.functions#L53-57 for proper testing)
  283. # [11:36] <zcorpan> k
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  290. # [12:36] <zcorpan> hmm. http://simon.html5.org/specs/quirks-mode#the-blocks-ignore-line-height-quirk applies in almost standards mode too
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  299. # [13:34] <smaug____> why do I have some many copies of DOM4 open..
  300. # [13:35] <smaug____> AppTab helps
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  302. # [13:37] <Ms2ger> Because it's such a nice spec? ;)
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  306. # [13:48] <zcorpan> foolip: <!-- As of
  307. # [13:48] <zcorpan> 2005-12, studies showed that around 0.2% of pages used the
  308. # [13:48] <zcorpan> <image> element. -->
  309. # [13:49] <zcorpan> foolip: changing <image> now seems disruptive even if it's less than 0.2% today
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  311. # [13:50] <foolip> zcorpan, yeah, I guess :(
  312. # [13:50] <zcorpan> foolip: having multiple <img>s seems to have the wrong behavior in legacy browsers
  313. # [13:51] <foolip> zcorpan, because they are fetched even or display:none? (are they?)
  314. # [13:51] <zcorpan> they are, yeah
  315. # [13:51] <foolip> again, :(
  316. # [13:51] <zcorpan> and this feature could be designed to work without needing CSS for legacy browsers
  317. # [13:52] <foolip> without even CSS? that seems excessively backwards compatible
  318. # [13:53] <zcorpan> the proposed markup doesn't need css to show a single image in legacy browsers
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  320. # [13:55] <foolip> Yes, but I'm not a fan of using <source>
  321. # [13:55] <zcorpan> that's reasonable
  322. # [13:55] <foolip> Maybe I wouldn't care if I didn't know about the resource selection algorithm
  323. # [13:55] <zcorpan> call it something else :-)
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  333. # [14:06] <zcorpan> seems to me it should be more like
  334. # [14:06] <zcorpan> <picture>
  335. # [14:06] <zcorpan> <source src=mobile.jog resolution=20dpi>
  336. # [14:06] <zcorpan> <source src=hires.jpg resolution=200dpi>
  337. # [14:06] <zcorpan> <img src=lowres.jpg resolution=96dpi alt="fallback text">
  338. # [14:06] <zcorpan> </picture>
  339. # [14:07] <zcorpan> where the browser downloads the image that is "good enough" for the current zoom level, and never downloads a lower resolution image than the ones it already has
  340. # [14:07] <foolip> um, so <img> takes part in the resource selection and is not just a fallback?
  341. # [14:07] <zcorpan> supporting full MQ here probably leads to authors using it incorrectly, like the spec currently has it wrong (it would download the mobile version when you zoom in)
  342. # [14:08] <zcorpan> yeah, that seems nice for DRY
  343. # [14:08] <zcorpan> and making sure legacy browsers don't get left in the cold
  344. # [14:08] <zcorpan> maybe the <img> has an implied resolution=96dpi and that can't be changed
  345. # [14:08] <foolip> yeah, but it'll just look weird in 5 years when legacy browsers are irrelevant
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  348. # [14:09] <zcorpan> so?
  349. # [14:09] <zcorpan> in five years bandwidth won't be a problem so you can just use <img> again :-)
  350. # [14:09] <zcorpan> also, lots of stuff in html looks weird because they were designed to be backwards compatible
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  359. # [14:32] <zcorpan> media="" on <source> might well be a misfeature that we should drop
  360. # [14:36] <zcorpan> ok i commented on the picture spec
  361. # [15:00] <zcorpan> Hixie: btw, seems i was wrong about coordinate vs coordinates
  362. # [15:00] <jgraham> zcorpan: One might wonder if your <img adaptive> proposal couldn't be spelt <img>
  363. # [15:01] <jgraham> I guess that will break something for some reason
  364. # [15:01] <zcorpan> jgraham: i suspect making Range requests for all <img>s would break sites
  365. # [15:02] <zcorpan> but i don't have data on that
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  367. # [15:13] <zcorpan> or pages might have progressive JPEGs but expect them to be fully downloaded so they can paint them on a canvas or so
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  369. # [15:15] <zcorpan> also, an attribute can be feature-checked so you could choose to use a 96dpi image for legacy browsers and a 200dpi image for supporting browsers
  370. # [15:17] <zcorpan> which maybe could be spelled as <img src=96dpi.jpg adaptive=200dpi.jpg> (empty string for adaptive would use src instead)
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  373. # [15:23] <jgraham> Interesting idea
  374. # [15:23] <jgraham> The one I like most so far, I think
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  376. # [15:27] <zcorpan> ok updated my comment with that
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  392. # [16:33] <Wilto> My ears were ringing. Hi, guys!
  393. # [16:34] <Wilto> jgraham: Unfortunately, we were informed pretty early on by a number of vendors that they weren’t willing to bypass image prefetching based on the existence of an attribute.
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  395. # [16:35] <Wilto> jgraham: <img src="…" adaptive="…"> would still leave us downloading the original src first, then swapping it for the second src.
  396. # [16:36] <Wilto> The Chrome folks did all but post “LOL” somewhere. Hence our working around <img> altogether—for that reason, and to avoid introducing potential issues in older browsers (granted, the `adaptive` attr wouldn’t, but in general).
  397. # [16:37] <Wilto> We did a lot of that early brainstorming here: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/responsive-assets
  398. # [16:38] <Wilto> And a lot of this ground has been covered in the CG, even though it’s a bit distributed across posts and comments. We did our best to keep all conversation public and easily-parsed.
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  404. # [16:42] <Wilto> It's been a disjointed "process," but there isn’t a hell of a lot of precedent for this "from Community Group to standard" chain of events. If theres anything I can do to help out with the history, please don’t hesitate to pester me. I turned into the spokeperson somewhere along the line.
  405. # [16:43] <Wilto> And I want to stress that I'm after _a_ solution, not "my" solution. I’m not married to <picture>, but all roads seem to lead that way the longer the discussion goes on. Completely open mind, here.
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  409. # [16:44] <Wilto> (End rant.)
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  425. # [17:07] <jgraham> 10:27 < Wilto> jgraham: <img src="…" adaptive="…"> would still leave us downloading the original src first
  426. # [17:07] <jgraham> why?
  427. # [17:07] <jgraham> Wilto: ^
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  429. # [17:08] <jgraham> AIUI in zcorpan's proposal you download exactly one image, ever
  430. # [17:08] <jgraham> It's just that you use http range requests to only download enough data for the resolution you have
  431. # [17:09] <jgraham> ofc it doesn't solve the use case of "display entirely different images based on screen size"
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  471. # [18:41] <volkmar> is there an api out there with something like success()/succeded()/postSuccess() methods? I'm trying to name a method with a bit of consistency...
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  474. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> volkmar, IDB comes to mind.
  475. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> Resource loads tend to use onload/onerror.
  476. # [18:48] <volkmar> actually, I was looking for something doing the call, not handling the event
  477. # [18:48] <volkmar> but I guess I will just go with something and hope someone will tell me if I'm wrong
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  537. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> Oh hey, it's jgraham in my bugzilla
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  550. # [22:18] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Be afraid, very afraid
  551. # [22:19] <Ms2ger> So, when are you guys implementing event ctors?
  552. # [22:23] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Wrong tense
  553. # [22:23] <Ms2ger> Oh?
  554. # [22:24] <jgraham> Unless you mean more than "new Event('foo')"
  555. # [22:24] <Ms2ger> Yep
  556. # [22:24] <Ms2ger> StorageEvent
  557. # [22:26] <jgraham> Ah. Probably when jl (or sof or bratell or a number of other people) has five minutes and the inclination then.
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  575. # Session Close: Sat Mar 24 00:00:00 2012

The end :)