/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-04-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 03 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <Ms2ger> Fascinating case
  4. # [00:05] <Ms2ger> So the spec expects a 'foo--' element and a comment whose value is 'y</foo' as siblings?
  5. # [00:06] <Ms2ger> I'd say probably a spec bug, yes
  6. # [00:07] <zcorpan> well the spec says to copy over the children of the root element
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  8. # [00:07] <zcorpan> the comment isn't a child of the root element
  9. # [00:07] <zcorpan> so it gets dropped on the floor per spec
  10. # [00:08] <zcorpan> but one might expect this to throw an exception
  11. # [00:09] <Ms2ger> I would
  12. # [00:09] <Ms2ger> Oh, that's even better
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  14. # [00:10] <Ms2ger> Hixie, was that your intention for http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-xhtml-syntax.html#xml-fragment-parsing-algorithm ? :)
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  16. # [00:10] <Hixie> hm?
  17. # [00:11] <Hixie> what's the question?
  18. # [00:11] <Ms2ger> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1443
  19. # [00:12] <Ms2ger> The spec parses "<foo-->" + input + "</foo-->"
  20. # [00:12] <Hixie> what browser should i be testing that in? chrome gives me a TypeError
  21. # [00:13] <Ms2ger> Gecko follows the spec
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  23. # [00:14] <Hixie> won't you abort on step 5?
  24. # [00:14] <Hixie> with a SyntaxError?
  25. # [00:14] <zcorpan> no
  26. # [00:14] <Hixie> why not
  27. # [00:14] <Hixie> oh sorry
  28. # [00:15] <zcorpan> innerHTML prepends the string with the start tag and appends with end tag
  29. # [00:15] <Hixie> i thought foo == <html/>
  30. # [00:15] <Hixie> my bad
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  33. # [00:16] <Hixie> i cannot honestly say i'd considered this case
  34. # [00:16] <Hixie> jesus
  35. # [00:16] <Hixie> who came up with this :-P
  36. # [00:17] <zcorpan> take a guess :-P
  37. # [00:17] <Hixie> me? :-P
  38. # [00:17] <zcorpan> nope :-)
  39. # [00:17] <Hixie> i think it would make sense to have the fragment parsing algorithm check for other siblings and throw
  40. # [00:17] <Hixie> possibly throwing a WhatWereYouThinkingError
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  42. # [00:18] <Ms2ger> OperaQAError
  43. # [00:18] <zcorpan> heh
  44. # [00:18] <zcorpan> LOLzcorpanDontTestAllFuckingEdgeCasesOKError
  45. # [00:18] <Hixie> alternatively, between steps 3 and 4 have it check that you're not in the middle of a token
  46. # [00:18] <Hixie> and if so bail
  47. # [00:19] <Ms2ger> Alternatively, have annevk write an XML spec with a fragment parsing algorithm
  48. # [00:20] <Hixie> i'm happy to do either of the two changes i describe, or have anne take it over if he's not too busy with other specs
  49. # [00:20] <Hixie> either way, file a bug
  50. # [00:20] <Hixie> i agree we don't want what is there now
  51. # [00:20] <Hixie> PS. mark the bug "trivial" :-P
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  53. # [00:21] * zcorpan files
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  61. # [00:41] <gsnedders> zcorpan: a && b returns a if a is false
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  64. # [00:41] <gsnedders> zcorpan: (otherwise it returns b)
  65. # [00:42] <gsnedders> zcorpan: i.e., it returns a value x st ToBoolean(x) = ToBoolean(a) && ToBoolean(b)
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  67. # [00:42] <gsnedders> Wait, no, I can't read.
  68. # [00:42] <gsnedders> That's not you!
  69. # [00:42] <gsnedders> Gah!
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  110. # [01:58] <Hixie> does anyone implement startOffsetTime or can i rename it?
  111. # [01:59] <smaug____> can't find such thing in Gecko
  112. # [02:01] <Hixie> ok looks like nobody i tested implements it
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  114. # [02:01] * Hixie changes it to startDate
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  117. # [02:08] <TabAtkins> You mean starDate.
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  119. # [02:10] <Hixie> oops
  120. # [02:10] <Hixie> wait, no
  121. # [02:10] <Hixie> i thought you meant i had actually done that
  122. # [02:11] <TabAtkins> You need to quit listening to me.
  123. # [02:11] <Hixie> indeed
  124. # [02:11] <Hixie> :-P
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  131. # [02:25] <zewt> http://groups.google.com/group/mongodb-user/browse_thread/thread/04d5a8148a9cc557 and you thought initMouseEvent had too many arguments
  132. # [02:25] <zewt> message = struct.pack("<i", 16 + len(data))\n\nerror: pack requires exactly 3415645423173094629 arguments\n')
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  135. # [02:34] <TabAtkins> Hahaha
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  168. # [04:15] <roc_> Hixie: I thought Opera tried to implement it
  169. # [04:15] * roc_ is now known as roc
  170. # [04:17] <roc> Hixie: by the way, I have a question about Workers ... what would you think of an extension to postMessage that takes an extra string argument representing the global-scope function to be invoked (instead of the onpostmessage handler)?
  171. # [04:21] <Hixie> roc: yeah, opera were the ones asking for the rename
  172. # [04:21] <zewt> i wouldn't like having global functions in my workers executable like that; it's exposing something as an API that i probably didn't intend to be
  173. # [04:21] <zewt> prefer to have the entry points better defined
  174. # [04:22] <Hixie> roc: for Worker.postMessage?
  175. # [04:22] <Hixie> roc: that sounds pretty messed up, especially once we do cross-origin workers :-)
  176. # [04:22] <Hixie> roc: can't the other end implement that manually if they want to?
  177. # [04:23] <Hixie> function (event) { self[event.data.function].apply(event.data.arguments) } or some such
  178. # [04:26] <roc> yes
  179. # [04:26] <roc> perhaps you could chime in on this thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2012JanMar/0343.html
  180. # [04:26] <roc> one of your friends at Google wants to add something like that
  181. # [04:26] <zewt> ... and he's discussing it on public-audio?
  182. # [04:26] <roc> it's specifically for audio (or media) processing
  183. # [04:27] <zewt> if it's a worker feature, it's not
  184. # [04:27] <Hixie> roc: your e-mail seems to pretty much summarise what i would say :-)
  185. # [04:27] <roc> the idea is you might have a Worker handling several different kinds of processing and he wants to be able to dispatch to particular processing callbacks instead of a single event handler like I'm proposing
  186. # [04:28] <roc> Hixie: OK, but your input might carry more weight
  187. # [04:28] <Hixie> if there's a working group in which the same argument from two different people carries different weight with the relevant spec editor, that should be stamped out immediately
  188. # [04:28] <roc> Hixie: I know you don't approve of such authority, but it's still a reality
  189. # [04:28] <zewt> Hixie: severe idealism :)
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  192. # [04:31] <Hixie> roc: do you have a link to the e-mail in which Dmitry first suggests it
  193. # [04:31] <Hixie> ?
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  195. # [04:33] <roc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2012JanMar/0245.html
  196. # [04:33] <roc> item 2
  197. # [04:34] <Hixie> thanks
  198. # [04:35] <Hixie> what is onprocessmedia?
  199. # [04:35] <roc> that's my proposal
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  201. # [04:35] <roc> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/audio/raw-file/tip/streams/StreamProcessing.html#worker-processing
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  203. # [04:36] <Hixie> oh so you pass a worker to the audio system and it starts sending these special messages?
  204. # [04:36] <roc> yes
  205. # [04:37] <Hixie> if you have a custom mechanism like that why not just have a way to register lots of different event handlers with different event names?
  206. # [04:37] <Hixie> a bit like what EventSource does
  207. # [04:37] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  208. # [04:37] <Hixie> or indeed without using event handlers at all, if cpu is a concern
  209. # [04:38] <Hixie> just have a dedicated registration mechanism
  210. # [04:39] <Hixie> worker.registerMediaHandler('handlerType', function (whateverIsNeeded) {});
  211. # [04:39] <Hixie> not sure how the UA decides what to send to the worker, so i'm not sure how you decide the handlerTypes
  212. # [04:39] <Hixie> bbiab
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  217. # [05:04] <roc> right now onprocessmedia is like onmessage, it's not a full-fledged event handler, just a Function? callback
  218. # [05:04] <roc> a dedicated registration system seems like overkill
  219. # [05:05] <roc> the page author always chooses which callback should be invoked, there's no types or anything like that to dispatch on. Each callback represents a different kind of processing effect supported by the worker.
  220. # [05:05] <roc> in the simple case, each Worker only supports one kind of processing and the onprocessmedia callback is fine
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  243. # [07:09] <Hixie> roc: onmessage is a fully fledged event handler
  244. # [07:10] <Hixie> roc: i don't really understand why there's a need for a dispatching thing then. or how it would work.
  245. # [07:13] <roc> "[TreatNonCallableAsNull] attribute Function? onmessage;" ... that's a fully fledged event handler?
  246. # [07:15] <Hixie> that's just an attribute. what makes it fully fledged is "The following are the event handlers (and their corresponding event handler event types) that must be supported, as IDL attributes, by objects implementing the DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope interface: Event handler: onmessage Event handler event type: message"
  247. # [07:15] <roc> ok
  248. # [07:16] <roc> when you associate a worker with an audio stream, the idea is that normally the UA perodically invokes whatever was assigned to the onprocessmedia callback to process the audio. Dmitry argues that we might want to associate a single worker with multiple streams (to save resources), and furthermore that the processing required for each stream might be different, so we should support the...
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  250. # [07:16] <roc> ...ability to pass the name of a function which gets called
  251. # [07:16] <roc> instead of routing everything through the single callback
  252. # [07:16] <Hixie> ah
  253. # [07:16] <Hixie> huh
  254. # [07:16] <Hixie> interesting
  255. # [07:16] <Hixie> wouldn't such a worker be stateful?
  256. # [07:16] <roc> he claims that's more convenient and more performant than doing dispatch manually
  257. # [07:16] <roc> yes
  258. # [07:16] <Hixie> even if it only did one thing?
  259. # [07:17] <roc> these workers are stateful
  260. # [07:17] <Hixie> so you wouldn't want to dispatch based on a different method
  261. # [07:17] <Hixie> you'd want to dispatch based on state
  262. # [07:17] <roc> no, the dispatch isn't stateful
  263. # [07:18] <roc> the dispatch is for cases like "stream A wants the echo effect, stream B wants the high-pass filter effect, and stream C wants the fade effect"
  264. # [07:18] <Hixie> what if streams A and B want an echo effect
  265. # [07:18] <roc> then they'd both specify the same effect function I guess
  266. # [07:19] <Hixie> wouldn't that then mean that the echoes would stomp on each other?
  267. # [07:19] <roc> ah
  268. # [07:19] <Hixie> if i were designing a system to support that, i would have an event that fires when a media thingy starts using the worker, and that handler would have a handle that you can use to register a callback (not dom event based) for that media thingy.
  269. # [07:19] <roc> the per-stream state should be attached as expandos to the event object passed into the callback, which is defined to be one per stream
  270. # [07:20] <Hixie> so you're passing the same object again and again?
  271. # [07:20] <roc> yes
  272. # [07:20] <Hixie> please don't make it inherit from Event
  273. # [07:20] <roc> too late, but I can fix that. Why?
  274. # [07:20] <Hixie> what you're describing is nothing like events, it's some weird new callback system
  275. # [07:21] <Hixie> Event objects have all kinds of dispatch state
  276. # [07:21] <roc> why? just because of the reuse?
  277. # [07:21] <Hixie> DOM Events have a number of key characteristics:
  278. # [07:21] <Hixie> - you can register more than one handler for each event type
  279. # [07:21] <Hixie> - they have a dispatch mechanism and can be redispatched
  280. # [07:22] <Hixie> - they have bubbling and capture modes
  281. # [07:22] <Hixie> - they can be cancelled, or have propagation aborted
  282. # [07:22] <Hixie> and all kinds of other subtle things
  283. # [07:22] <Hixie> you just want a callback
  284. # [07:22] <roc> ok
  285. # [07:22] <Hixie> which is passed a dedicated object over and over
  286. # [07:22] <roc> thanks
  287. # [07:22] <roc> I gotta go for now
  288. # [07:22] <Hixie> k
  289. # [07:22] <roc> I'll look into that
  290. # [07:22] <Hixie> ttyl
  291. # [07:22] <Hixie> cc me on the next mail in that thread
  292. # [07:22] <Hixie> and i can chip in advice if you like
  293. # [07:26] <Hixie> hober, tantek, TabAtkins: did we ever decide where we were meeting tomorrow?
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  297. # [07:28] <tantek> I remember lunch.
  298. # [07:28] <tantek> in Mountain View
  299. # [07:28] <tantek> Hixie, shall we meet at your usual spot?
  300. # [07:29] <Hixie> the b43 lobby?
  301. # [07:29] <Hixie> works for me
  302. # [07:29] <tantek> oh new usual spot ok
  303. # [07:29] <Hixie> what was the old usual spot? :-)
  304. # [07:29] <tantek> the place where you've always ordered the same one dish
  305. # [07:29] <Hixie> oh la fiesta
  306. # [07:29] <Hixie> still only ever ordered that one dish btw!
  307. # [07:30] <Hixie> no i think hober and TabAtkins planned to meet at google
  308. # [07:30] <tantek> "at Google" is a bit vague ;)
  309. # [07:30] <Hixie> hence my asking :-)
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  311. # [07:34] <Hixie> TabAtkins, hober, tantek: ok i'm going to assume we'll meet at the b43 lobby at whatever time it is tab organised. if you decide otherwise, drop me an e-mail or /msg me or something.
  312. # [07:34] <Hixie> back later
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  317. # [07:51] <tantek> Hixie, cool. looks like about a 4 mile bike ride from Mozilla / Castro st.
  318. # [07:52] <tantek> I'm going to assume noon unless I hear otherwise
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  345. # [09:40] <annevk> didn't realize Web IDL has both octet and byte...
  346. # [09:40] <annevk> and byte is signed
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  353. # [09:49] <hsivonen> annevk: that's confusing
  354. # [09:51] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
  355. # [09:52] <annevk> sure is
  356. # [09:53] <annevk> I have asked for removal of byte and to then rename octet to byte
  357. # [09:53] <annevk> which seems more in line with terminology used throughout the platform
  358. # [09:56] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  359. # [09:57] <annevk> oh right, I keep forgetting why I got up at all thus far
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  366. # [10:13] <annevk> Ms2ger: did anolis stop recognizing [PUBLISH] ?
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  369. # [10:19] <Ms2ger> What about it?
  370. # [10:20] <annevk> it didn't get replaced when generating a draft
  371. # [10:20] * Ms2ger tries to remember what it did
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  373. # [10:21] <annevk> it's the w3.org/TR/shortname/ link
  374. # [10:21] * Joins: richt (richt@nat/opera/x-ktbngzvjdrsmkfua)
  375. # [10:23] <Ms2ger> Seems to be [LATEST] in the source...
  376. # [10:24] <annevk> oh
  377. # [10:24] <annevk> maybe I never published CORS before :)
  378. # [10:24] <annevk> using anolis that is
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  381. # [10:28] <annevk> that seems to be it
  382. # [10:28] <annevk> thanks Ms2ger
  383. # [10:28] <Ms2ger> Np
  384. # [10:29] <Ms2ger> The docs for Bert's tool don't mention it either
  385. # [10:31] <annevk> I probably assumed it was called PUBLISH for some reason
  386. # [10:31] * Joins: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@161.212.140.88.rev.sfr.net)
  387. # [10:31] <Ms2ger> That could be it
  388. # [10:32] * Joins: gwicke (~gabriel@212.255.28.33)
  389. # [10:32] <annevk> took a good twenty minutes or so figuring out the wording for two groups and making it right
  390. # [10:32] <annevk> and it's probably wrong
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  395. # [10:38] <annevk> took me a while to get zcorpan's testcase
  396. # [10:38] <annevk> parsing fun
  397. # [10:42] * Quits: mkanat (mkanat@nat/google/x-lbpxrctqfjynoovi) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  398. # [10:42] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  399. # [10:45] <annevk> I now have a list of 609 responding URLs that don't declare utf-8 or iso-8859-1 in their content-type declaration
  400. # [10:45] <annevk> I guess I should start fetching the raw data and run some byte analyze scripts
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  405. # [10:52] <vcvc> hi
  406. # [10:52] <annevk> hey hey
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  409. # [10:54] <annevk> I'm on a role in #csspubquiz :)
  410. # [10:54] <Ms2ger> A role? :)
  411. # [10:55] <jgraham> Yup, he's a wizard
  412. # [10:55] * Quits: hendry (~hendry@sg.webconverger.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  413. # [10:55] * Ms2ger puts on his ro... Nvm
  414. # [10:55] <smaug____> so, will there be webapps wg f2f next month
  415. # [10:56] <Ms2ger> Apparently
  416. # [10:56] <annevk> spelling is overrated
  417. # [10:56] <annevk> this is not reddit
  418. # [10:57] <Ms2ger> 20ish people registered for WebApps
  419. # [10:57] <Ms2ger> I guess that's more efficient than the 200 last time
  420. # [10:59] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
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  422. # [11:05] <smaug____> but is it still useful meeting...
  423. # [11:05] <smaug____> perhaps I could try to get rid of file system api
  424. # [11:06] * jgraham stands back as smaug____ lights blue touch paper
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  426. # [11:08] <annevk> what's the fastest way to do a byte case-insensitive match on a file-like object in Python?
  427. # [11:09] <jgraham> Probably using regexp
  428. # [11:10] <jgraham> Although byte-case-insensitive doesn't really mean much to me
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  431. # [11:10] <jgraham> YOu are either matching bytes, which don't have a case, or matching characters, which do
  432. # [11:11] <annevk> i'm matching against bytes but I want "B" and "b" to be the same
  433. # [11:11] <Ms2ger> But those aren't bytes ;)
  434. # [11:11] <annevk> maybe I should just give up on this and deal with it in post processing
  435. # [11:12] <annevk> Ms2ger: b"B" and b"b" then...
  436. # [11:12] * Quits: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  437. # [11:12] <zcorpan> do you need it to be fast? do you look at each byte anyway?
  438. # [11:13] <annevk> former
  439. # [11:14] <annevk> but it's premature optimization, can do it later when everything is on disk
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  441. # [11:14] <zcorpan> yeah i'd do it when you're looking at each byte anyway :-)
  442. # [11:18] <zcorpan> using URLs for schemes would be ... interesting
  443. # [11:19] <annevk> because of the Xzibit Yo Dawg meme?
  444. # [11:22] <zcorpan> right
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  448. # [11:31] <annevk> did not know that file.read() could fail :(
  449. # [11:32] <jgraham> Seems pretty likely e.g. if the data doesn't exist anymore
  450. # [11:32] <annevk> well I just fetched it
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  452. # [11:33] <jgraham> Hmm, I dunno how urllib works in that way
  453. # [11:33] <jgraham> s/way/regard/
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  460. # [11:58] <zcorpan> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/PageVisibility/Overview.html#sec-processing-model is a bit weird for how it defines "unload a document"
  461. # [11:59] <zcorpan> it seems to basically override the algorithm in the html spec, but then says to "continue" that algorithm
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  467. # [12:12] * Peter- is now known as beverloo
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  470. # [12:27] * gsnedders hates window.attachEvent
  471. # [12:28] <gsnedders> The fact that keeping it breaks some sites, but not keeping it seems to break even more…
  472. # [12:29] <roc> we don't have it
  473. # [12:30] <Ms2ger> You should use Gecko ;)
  474. # [12:31] <jgraham> roc: You have never had it, so sites don't depend on it in the codepaths they send you down
  475. # [12:31] <smaug____> very true
  476. # [12:31] <roc> change your UA to Gecko
  477. # [12:32] <smaug____> gsnedders: you could start warn about attachEvent
  478. # [12:32] <smaug____> warning may or may not help
  479. # [12:32] <jgraham> I think doing that in the past (UA changing) probably got us into this mess :)
  480. # [12:33] <smaug____> does IE still support attachEvent
  481. # [12:33] <smaug____> in the non-legacy mode
  482. # [12:33] <jgraham> Probably if you didn't do the magic dance to get into standards mode
  483. # [12:34] * Ms2ger has a look
  484. # [12:34] <Ms2ger> Where does this attachEvent thing live?
  485. # [12:34] <jgraham> Well since gsnedders hates window.attachEvent…
  486. # [12:36] <Ms2ger> Still there with <!doctype html> in IE10
  487. # [12:36] <smaug____> boo
  488. # [12:36] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com)
  489. # [12:36] <Ms2ger> Exactly my thoughts
  490. # [12:38] * Ms2ger adds a test
  491. # [12:38] <gsnedders> roc: UA changing should probably make web developers hate us.
  492. # [12:38] <Ms2ger> s//more/
  493. # [12:39] * Ms2ger goes back to fixing storage
  494. # [12:39] <gsnedders> (What we do now is apply the same hiding as document.all to window.attachEvent, which helps us avoid going down IE codepaths, which fixes a lot of the sites that having it breaks)
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  499. # [13:23] <sedovsek> Hey!
  500. # [13:23] <sedovsek> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=q_O9_C2ZjoA#t=145s
  501. # [13:23] <sedovsek> Does anyone know how this video was made?
  502. # [13:24] <Ms2ger> paul_irish probably does
  503. # [13:25] * Joins: BruNeX (u4730@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jcobtaasgsklpdso)
  504. # [13:32] <annevk> sweet
  505. # [13:32] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Apr/0008.html
  506. # [13:32] <annevk> I was afraid that would be marked as spam
  507. # [13:33] <annevk> wait what
  508. # [13:33] <annevk> why did it inline the .txt file
  509. # [13:33] <annevk> aaaaaaah
  510. # [13:33] <Ms2ger> Woo, Infraware's got more tests
  511. # [13:34] * jgraham wonders who infraware actually are
  512. # [13:35] <jgraham> Medical transcription?
  513. # [13:36] <jgraham> Ah, probably the korean one
  514. # [13:37] <Ms2ger> Yep
  515. # [13:42] <charlvn> annevk: multipart messages with a mime type of text/plain will usually get treated like the "mail body" by most mail systems (that i know of)
  516. # [13:42] <charlvn> it doesn't have a good way of knowing what the mail body is because the mail body is also sent as a text/plain in the multipart
  517. # [13:43] <charlvn> so the mail body is usually "append all text/plain attachments"
  518. # [13:44] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  519. # [13:47] <annevk> well it sucks
  520. # [13:48] <annevk> the email arrived in my inbox perfectly fine
  521. # [13:50] <Ms2ger> Yay, another bug
  522. # [13:51] <annevk> Ms2ger: yeah, at some point we should write down new terminology rules; return means terminate; throw is not caught; etc.
  523. # [13:51] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  524. # [13:51] <annevk> prolly give it the same sane default as in programming...
  525. # [13:52] <Ms2ger> This would all be so much easier if we wrote in C++ ;)
  526. # [13:52] <jgraham> Copy the ES5 sepc
  527. # [13:52] <jgraham> *spec
  528. # [13:52] <Ms2ger> INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY VIOLATION
  529. # [13:56] <jgraham> That's NS_ERROR_INTELLECTUAL_PROPERTY_VIOLATION to you :p
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  533. # [14:01] <Ms2ger> Hey, we fixed that for DOMExceptions
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  536. # [14:05] <matjas> I hope you guys don’t mind me posting a #csspubquiz question.
  537. # [14:06] <gsnedders> You shall be hanged, drawn, and quartered!
  538. # [14:06] <annevk> matjas: zcorpan "forked" without asking, should be no problem
  539. # [14:06] <zcorpan> matjas: do it :-)
  540. # [14:06] <annevk> there you go :)
  541. # [14:06] <matjas> zcorpan: http://twitter.com/mathias/status/187146793132371968
  542. # [14:07] <Ms2ger> Empty string?
  543. # [14:07] <matjas> Ms2ger: yep
  544. # [14:09] <annevk> #whatwg regulars should probably not be allowed to reply
  545. # [14:09] <annevk> usually within minutes the answer is found
  546. # [14:10] <gsnedders> Probably a lot of the people who see on Twitter don't follow #whatwg though
  547. # [14:10] <Ms2ger> Well, if *we* can't find it... ;)
  548. # [14:14] <zcorpan> hsivonen: changing from ascii to utf-8 midstream also affects resolving URLs, so links can go from working to not working or vice versa during parsing
  549. # [14:15] <matjas> haha thomasfuchs just asked “is it on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_typefaces?” — I’d be lying if I said no
  550. # [14:17] <zcorpan> you could say that it doesn't have a bullet point dedicated to it on that page
  551. # [14:17] <zcorpan> or go with "yes and no" :-P
  552. # [14:19] <matjas> I’d rather troll
  553. # [14:20] <zcorpan> matjas: i think i found a bug. try two spaces
  554. # [14:21] <matjas> zcorpan: good catch. will fix
  555. # [14:21] <zcorpan> or anything that begins with a space
  556. # [14:25] <zcorpan> matjas: another: foo 1
  557. # [14:25] <matjas> zcorpan: what’s wrong with `font-family: foo\ 1;`?
  558. # [14:25] <matjas> the space is escaped
  559. # [14:25] <matjas> so it’s all 1 identifier
  560. # [14:25] <zcorpan> oh, right!
  561. # [14:27] <matjas> looks weird huh
  562. # [14:27] <matjas> but most of the time it’s more readable than escaping the first char of the next identifier
  563. # [14:27] <zcorpan> yeah
  564. # [14:31] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@me00536d0.tmodns.net) (Quit: tantek)
  565. # [14:36] <annevk> zcorpan: how would it affect URLs zcorpan if you have not encountered non-ASCII yet?
  566. # [14:38] <annevk> I like how it's completely useless
  567. # [14:38] <zcorpan> annevk: entities
  568. # [14:39] <annevk> hmm yeah, and then you'd have to use windows-1252?
  569. # [14:40] <annevk> for the query part
  570. # [14:40] <zcorpan> yes
  571. # [14:40] <annevk> URLs are evil
  572. # [14:41] <zcorpan> or other escapes in js
  573. # [14:48] <hsivonen> Can someone who has been paying attention explain to me how aria-describedat differs from adding a longdesc to every element?
  574. # [14:48] <jgraham> Someone has been paying attention?
  575. # [14:52] <annevk> hsivonen: maybe no ties to legacy content? it always looked like a recipe for failure to me
  576. # [14:52] <hsivonen> annevk: good point
  577. # [14:59] * hsivonen marks everything concerning httprange-14 as read
  578. # [14:59] <annevk> hardly any sites uses bytes in the problematic range it turns out
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  593. # [15:22] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
  594. # [15:30] <zewt> Ms2ger: uh, wow, way to be a dick on the tracker
  595. # [15:33] <zewt> and way to close a ticket without responding in any way to the issues raised; very poor show
  596. # [15:34] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert.se@93-103-104-107.dynamic.t-2.net)
  597. # [15:38] <Ms2ger> zewt, did you notice I actually fixed the bug before the troll came in?
  598. # [15:38] <zewt> uh, what?
  599. # [15:38] <zewt> i'm a troll, now?
  600. # [15:39] <Ms2ger> Ugh
  601. # [15:39] <Ms2ger> I'm sorry
  602. # [15:39] <zewt> i'm going to go take a shower, I don't like getting pissed off at 8:30am because of spec shit
  603. # [15:40] <Ms2ger> I thought that was the other Glenn :/
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  606. # [15:41] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, I know this is a radical idea, but maybe you could resolve bugs primarily based on their content instead of the filer? Just saying.
  607. # [15:44] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@93-103-90-17.dynamic.t-2.net) (Client Quit)
  608. # [15:44] * hsivonen wonders what bug this was
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  610. # [15:45] <AryehGregor> It's really annoying that XChat starts all my window titles with "XChat: AryehGregor @ FreeNode / #" or such. It makes it impossible to tell which is which when they're minimized.
  611. # [15:46] * AryehGregor Googles and finds he can try forcing the titles with xdotool
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  613. # [15:49] <AryehGregor> for SEARCH in '#developers' '#chromium' '#mediawiki' '#wikimedia-tech' '#webkit' '#whatwg' '#wikimedia-operations'; do xdotool search --name $SEARCH set_window --name $SEARCH --icon-name $SEARCH; done
  614. # [15:49] <AryehGregor> Yay.
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  619. # [16:02] <AryehGregor> Of course, they reset after a while, so clearly I need to run it from a cron job.
  620. # [16:02] <AryehGregor> Yay Linux!
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  622. # [16:04] <Philip`> Just put a "while true; do ...; done" around it
  623. # [16:04] <AryehGregor> To be friendly to system resources, I should add a sleep statement.
  624. # [16:05] <Philip`> You've (presumably) got a multi-core CPU, you might as well make use of it
  625. # [16:05] <Philip`> One core dedicated to renaming windows doesn't seem that bad a plan
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  627. # [16:06] <zewt> AryehGregor: amazon is annoying like that, too; unlike every other search-based website, they put their name at the start of <title>
  628. # [16:06] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I compile with -j16.
  629. # [16:07] <AryehGregor> (thus it only takes 15 minutes to compile Gecko from scratch)
  630. # [16:08] <jgraham> Does that work?! I mean whenever I compile with -j(something > 2 or so) my system becomes unusably laggy until the compile is done
  631. # [16:08] <jgraham> Not that I have compiled Gecko recently
  632. # [16:08] <AryehGregor> jgraham, works fine for me on Ubuntu 11.10.
  633. # [16:08] <AryehGregor> What OS do you use?
  634. # [16:08] <Ms2ger> wfm with -j12
  635. # [16:09] <jgraham> Hmm, could be my old ubuntu.
  636. # [16:09] <jgraham> 10.04
  637. # [16:09] <zewt> jgraham: as long as you're not using so many processes you're running out of memory, it shouldn't
  638. # [16:09] <Philip`> -j$numcores seems very laggy for me if I'm running it inside VirtualBox, but otherwise it's fine (assuming sufficient RAM)
  639. # [16:09] <zewt> afk work
  640. # [16:09] <jgraham> Maybe I just need more RAM
  641. # [16:09] <zewt> (this isn't everyone's day job :| )
  642. # [16:09] <AryehGregor> jgraham, try nice -n 19 if it's really a CPU-bound problem.
  643. # [16:09] <Philip`> (Ubuntu in VirtualBox in Win7, in particular)
  644. # [16:10] * Parts: ksweeney (~Kevin_Swe@nyv-exweb.iac.com)
  645. # [16:10] <jgraham> Or maybe the Opera build is sufficiently different from the Gecko build that there is some difference
  646. # [16:10] <AryehGregor> How much RAM do you have?
  647. # [16:10] <AryehGregor> I found that 8G wasn't really enough.
  648. # [16:10] <AryehGregor> 16 is fine.
  649. # [16:10] <jgraham> Not enough :)
  650. # [16:10] <Philip`> I think the general rule is "if you can afford it, it's not enough"
  651. # [16:10] <AryehGregor> RAM is stupidly cheap.
  652. # [16:11] * jgraham doesn't really compile that often atm but will get more RAM before he moves onto a project where he has to
  653. # [16:11] <Ms2ger> You could move onto the Mozilla project ;)
  654. # [16:12] <Philip`> You could reimplement Opera's build system to work the same as Mozilla's, and see if that makes a difference
  655. # [16:13] <Ms2ger> Would not recommend
  656. # [16:15] * AryehGregor notes that Linus Torvalds claims he can compile the Linux kernel from scratch in 15 seconds with no ccache or anything, as long as the files are in memory
  657. # [16:15] <AryehGregor> (of course, it's a custom compile that leaves out all the stuff he doesn't need)
  658. # [16:15] <AryehGregor> I see large parts of the Gecko build with close to 0% CPU/disk usage, so I suspect it's not optimal.
  659. # [16:15] <Ms2ger> Not at all
  660. # [16:16] <AryehGregor> Rebuilding Gecko with ccache and an objdir when *nothing has changed* takes 45 seconds for me.
  661. # [16:16] <AryehGregor> Can someone fix that plz? :(
  662. # [16:21] <Philip`> Was the work on pymake meant to help fix that?
  663. # [16:21] <Ms2ger> Pymake was more because gnu make is dog slow on windows
  664. # [16:21] <Ms2ger> And loves deadlocking
  665. # [16:22] <Philip`> Ah, so it won't make much difference on Linux?
  666. # [16:23] <Ms2ger> I don't know
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  668. # [16:23] <Ms2ger> Probably not
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  670. # [16:26] * smaug____ wonders why AryehGregor needs to rebuild gecko if nothing has changed
  671. # [16:26] * Ms2ger whacks smaug____
  672. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> smaug____, well, sometimes I'm lazy and don't want to manually copy tests or something like that. I don't actually have to, but the point is stuff I didn't change should take ~0s to rebuild.
  673. # [16:27] <AryehGregor> It might have to be relinked, but it shouldn't spend 45s going into and out of subdirectories and saying "nothing to do".
  674. # [16:27] <AryehGregor> Like, can it at least do that in parallel?
  675. # [16:28] <Ms2ger> Not always
  676. # [16:30] <smaug____> there are dependencies..
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  712. # [17:59] <dglazkov> good morning/afternoon/evening/night, Whatwg!
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  714. # [18:01] <Ms2ger> Good day
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  716. # [18:01] <Hixie> 'sup
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  719. # [18:05] <hober> yo
  720. # [18:07] <Velmont> 'lo
  721. # [18:07] <Hixie> hober: is there a spec i should be reading up on to be ready for our meeting?
  722. # [18:07] <Hixie> (for fullscreen)
  723. # [18:07] <Ms2ger> Fullscreen? :)
  724. # [18:08] <Hixie> i was thinking the answer might be something like "display"
  725. # [18:08] <Ms2ger> A spec for display? Hah
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  729. # [18:22] <hober> yeah
  730. # [18:22] * hober digs up a link to the ED
  731. # [18:23] <hober> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/fullscreen/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
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  735. # [18:30] <Hixie> hober: cool, thanks
  736. # [18:30] <Hixie> hober: in case you didn't see the discussion last night, plan as far as i am aware is to meet in the b43 lobby
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  739. # [18:35] <hober> ok
  740. # [18:35] <hober> at noon?
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  743. # [18:39] <Hixie> i believe so
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  751. # [18:50] <Hixie> i'm dropping initialTime
  752. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Come back to Google and you can use -j300
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  754. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> 3 minutes or so to build WebKit from scratch. ^_^
  755. # [18:56] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins--
  756. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Not my fault we've got server farms to lean on.
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  758. # [18:57] <TabAtkins> It probably wouldn't be that expensive to set up an Amazon cluster to get similar results.
  759. # [18:59] <jgraham> Mozilla have a large pool of build slaves, right? So all you really need to do is kill off the other developers so they are always free
  760. # [19:00] <Ms2ger> What? Why would you want to go through a build farm for your local builds?
  761. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> Or just get more build slaves.
  762. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Because then you can parallelize your build?
  763. # [19:01] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Well if it is significantly faster…
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  786. # [19:35] <[tm]> Qt going full 5
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  788. # [19:36] <[tm]> we got a great big convoy
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  793. # [19:42] * Ms2ger wishes Opera would implement the StorageEvent ctro
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  803. # [19:43] <[tm]> ctro?
  804. # [19:43] * Joins: jonlee (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:9545:b18b:585d:8f6c)
  805. # [19:43] <TabAtkins> constructor, presumably.
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  807. # [19:44] <[tm]> ah
  808. # [19:44] <Ms2ger> ctor, but I can't type either
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  810. # [19:44] <annevk> file a bug
  811. # [19:45] <Ms2ger> Link?
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  814. # [19:45] <[tm]> i think we should change our theme song to full fathom five
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  816. # [19:45] * ap_ is now known as ap
  817. # [19:45] <[tm]> instead of whatever happened to the teenage dream
  818. # [19:46] <annevk> Ms2ger: https://bugs.opera.com/wizarddesktop/
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  821. # [19:49] <Ms2ger> DSK-360666
  822. # [19:49] <Ms2ger> Nice number
  823. # [19:51] <annevk> since I'm superstitious I made that CORE-45500
  824. # [19:52] <Ms2ger> You are?
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  843. # [20:47] <Hixie> TabAtkins: fyi i'm in b43 lobby
  844. # [20:47] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I'll be there shortly.
  845. # [20:48] <Hixie> well don't bother rushing, our guests aren't here yet ;-)
  846. # [20:48] <TabAtkins> tantek said he'll be a bit late. Conservative estimate is 12:30
  847. # [20:48] <Hixie> i just figured it was easier to just sit here when i got in rather than find another couch them move :-)
  848. # [20:48] <Hixie> k
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  879. # [21:33] <annevk> WebGL https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16604 :/
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  900. # [22:50] <jamesr> zewt, blue text is how i know an email is from an @microsoft.com
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  912. # [23:13] <jsbell> annevk: another Encoding spec glitch: "escape state" --> "escape start state"
  913. # [23:14] <annevk> cheers, will take a look tomorrow
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  927. # Session Close: Wed Apr 04 00:00:00 2012

The end :)