/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-04-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 04 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> roc_: yt?
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  7. # [00:08] * roc_ is now known as roc
  8. # [00:08] <roc> yes
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  11. # [00:09] <Hixie> roc: i am told you have a concern over introducing a new stacking context for making fullscreen and modal <dialog>s work -- can you elaborate on that?
  12. # [00:10] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  13. # [00:11] <roc> I think it'll be OK if it's done properly
  14. # [00:12] <roc> people were proposing language like "<dialog> displays on top of everything else" which isn't precise enough
  15. # [00:12] <Hixie> ah ok
  16. # [00:12] <Hixie> so how's this:
  17. # [00:12] <roc> because obviously that breaks as soon as two specs say that :-)
  18. # [00:13] <Hixie> we introduce a new stacking context between layers 9 and 10 of CSS 2.1 Appendix E, and define two operations, "push" and "yank". "push" adds an element to this layer, above all the things on it already. "yank" removes the element from this layer.
  19. # [00:13] <Hixie> stacking contexts in this layer are not affected by things like clip/mask/opacity of their elements
  20. # [00:13] <Hixie> of their ancestor elements, rather
  21. # [00:14] <Hixie> z-index is ignored on this layer
  22. # [00:14] <Hixie> positioning in the plane is done as normal, the only effect here is on z-axis stacking
  23. # [00:14] <roc> I'm not sure what those ignore/not-affected-by comments mean
  24. # [00:14] <Hixie> (alternatively, positioning on the plane is always done per position:absolute)
  25. # [00:15] <roc> what about CSS transforms?
  26. # [00:15] <Hixie> it means the element is rendered as if its box was a sibling of the root element
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  28. # [00:15] <Hixie> of the root element's box
  29. # [00:15] <roc> how does this affect getBoundingClientRect on ancestors of such elements?
  30. # [00:15] <roc> oh, never mind
  31. # [00:16] <roc> so this affects layout as well as rendering?
  32. # [00:16] <Hixie> probably, though i could go either way on that
  33. # [00:16] <Hixie> seems simplest if it does
  34. # [00:17] <roc> this is almost like a new 'position' scheme
  35. # [00:17] <Hixie> yes
  36. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> Kinda, but not really, since you still want positioning to work.
  37. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> Like you want dialogs to be position:center.
  38. # [00:17] <roc> the basic idea seems reasonable but it feels quite invasive, lots of CSS things could be affected
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  40. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> And the actual layering is outside of CSS, based on the stack.
  41. # [00:18] <Hixie> definitely invasive
  42. # [00:18] <roc> can stuff escape from an <iframe> in this model?
  43. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> I think so, yes.
  44. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> You want to be able to fullscreen Youtube videos embedded via iframe.
  45. # [00:19] <roc> well, we currently support that without having things escape from <iframe>
  46. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> How so?
  47. # [00:19] <roc> by fullscreening the <iframe> first
  48. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> Oh, okay.
  49. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> So do authors have to do two fullscreen requests?
  50. # [00:20] <Hixie> yeah for anything inside iframes you fullscreen all the browsing context containers first
  51. # [00:20] <roc> the current fullscreen approach is good because it's not invasive at all
  52. # [00:20] <roc> TabAtkins: no, it's automatic.
  53. # [00:20] <Hixie> nothing should ever be able to escape its viewport
  54. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Sure, putting all the browsing context containers on the stack below the actual fullscreened element is fine.
  55. # [00:20] <Hixie> different stack
  56. # [00:20] <Hixie> each browsing context / viewport gets its own stack
  57. # [00:20] <roc> the thing is
  58. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Ah, I see.
  59. # [00:21] <roc> if you want an <iframe>'d widget to show a <dialog>, you really don't want to fullscreen the <iframe> and you want the <dialog> to be visible outside the <iframe> viewport. Don't you?>
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  61. # [00:21] <Hixie> you never want anything outside an <iframe>
  62. # [00:21] <Hixie> that's a security disaster
  63. # [00:21] <roc> yes
  64. # [00:21] <roc> but
  65. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Hixie: If you alert() in an iframe, it escapes.
  66. # [00:21] <roc> we have a conflict here
  67. # [00:22] <gsnedders> Likewise print
  68. # [00:22] <roc> <dialog> users will want their dialogs to escape
  69. # [00:22] <zcorpan> do we want outlines in the page to show when an element is fullscreened?
  70. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> I'm probably okay with "welp, that's not a big deal".
  71. # [00:22] <roc> <dialog> in a widget's small <iframe> will be pretty useless
  72. # [00:22] <Hixie> i don't see why <dialog> users would want anything different than what they're getting today with <div>
  73. # [00:22] <hober> <dialog> shouldn't escape the <iframe> it's in
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  75. # [00:22] <hober> <dialog>s don't escape the main browsing context
  76. # [00:23] <roc> Hixie: I can see why they'd want more. I'm OK with not giving it to them.
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  78. # [00:24] <zcorpan> annevk: have you considered 'outline' and fullscreen?
  79. # [00:24] <roc> Are there strong reasons to require this special escaping magic? Is it too hard to make authors hang <dialog>s off the root element?
  80. # [00:25] <Hixie> roc: the solution that's used by current widgets is to just spawn another iframe the size of the dialog, fwiw. That's fine by me.
  81. # [00:25] <Hixie> roc: the problem is with nesting dialogs and fullscreen
  82. # [00:25] <Hixie> roc: and making sure the layering still works
  83. # [00:26] <Hixie> zcorpan: in practice nobody puts outlines at layer 10 and we should just remove that from the spec
  84. # [00:26] <roc> we do
  85. # [00:26] <Hixie> how do you make them be affected by transforms then?
  86. # [00:26] <Hixie> or opacity?
  87. # [00:27] <zcorpan> opera does afaict
  88. # [00:27] <roc> Hixie: I dunno. "code" :-)
  89. # [00:28] <Hixie> i don't see how you can do 'opacity' while putting outlines in layer 10
  90. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> So you don't draw them at layer 10, you draw them at a magical undocumented layer.
  91. # [00:28] <Hixie> opacity composites atomically
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  93. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Plus, doesn't drawing at layer 10 imply that the entire outline overlaps any elements that may be above the element?
  94. # [00:29] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1444 - i don't see the outline in gecko or webkit
  95. # [00:29] <roc> I don't understand what you think the problem is
  96. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> roc: See zcorpan's test case.
  97. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> If you drew outlines at layer 10, you'd see the outline drawn above the covering div.
  98. # [00:31] <zcorpan> why does css have layer 10? what makes outlines so important they have to be visible above everything else?
  99. # [00:31] <Hixie> "accessibility"
  100. # [00:31] <zcorpan> -_-
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  107. # [00:40] <Hixie> actually i guess we should put hte layer after layer 10, and just say that outlines in these elements are always rendered atomically in this layer.
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  112. # [00:45] <roc> sorry yes, I was wrong, we put them in layer 7.
  113. # [00:46] <roc> we could easily put them in layer 10, not sure why I thought we had
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  115. # [00:46] <roc> anyway
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  117. # [00:48] <Hixie> TabAtkins: actually position:center as you described it at lunch isn't what we'd want for <dialog>
  118. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Really? Seems fine to me.
  119. # [00:48] <Hixie> TabAtkins: for <dialog> the top position has to be based on the scroll position at the time the dialog is shown
  120. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Ah.
  121. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> For modals too?
  122. # [00:48] <Hixie> yeah
  123. # [00:49] <Hixie> otherwise scrolling breaks for dialogs that are taller than the viewport
  124. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> Okay.
  125. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> It's fine to just define it as abspos with a particular static position.
  126. # [00:49] <Hixie> i expect we'll have to define some custom positioning actually, but i haven't looked at the issue closely recently
  127. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> Nah, if you want document-scrolling to scroll the dialog, then just use abspos with a custom static position.
  128. # [00:50] <Hixie> if the width changes i need the dialog to stay horizontally centered
  129. # [00:50] <Hixie> maybe i can do that with margins
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  131. # [00:50] <Hixie> i'll have to examine it more closely
  132. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> That doesn't let you adjust it (because using anything other than 'auto' in trbl would make it position relative to containing block instead).
  133. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Yes, left:0; right:0; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;.
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  137. # [00:52] <Hixie> does anything other than background-* apply to ::backdrop?
  138. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> Sure, why not let everything apply?
  139. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> I never see good reasons to artificially limit these unless absolutely necessary.
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  142. # [00:53] <Hixie> dunno, is there ever a need for 'display:inline' to apply to it, say?
  143. # [00:53] <Hixie> seems like htat's just asking for trouble
  144. # [00:53] <roc> Hixie: currently we disallow an element from going fullscreen if there's an existing fullscreen element that's not its ancestor
  145. # [00:53] <roc> are we doing something similar for <dialog??
  146. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> Since it's in the layer, it's forced to a block-level display.
  147. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> roc: Yes, I think.
  148. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> But I'm not sure.
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  150. # [00:54] <Hixie> roc: when there's no fullscreen elements around, any <dialog> can be showModal()ed
  151. # [00:55] <Hixie> roc: there's some implications for when you do it to a <Dialog> that's an ancestor of one already showing
  152. # [00:55] <roc> the way we handle the "make the fullscreen element escape from opacity/transforms/etc of its ancestors" problem currently, is that we have a pseudoclass for elements that are ancestors of the fullscreen element, and we set their opacity/transform etc to none with UA CSS rules
  153. # [00:55] <Hixie> roc: yeah
  154. # [00:55] <roc> which works for fullscreen since those ancestors are typically not visible anyway
  155. # [00:56] <roc> but less so for <dialog>
  156. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> roc: That's weird if the ancestors are visible.
  157. # [00:56] <Hixie> well, they can be visible
  158. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> And yeah, generally unusable for dialog.
  159. # [00:57] <roc> it's tempting to make go-fullscreen and show-dialog move the element to the end of the DOM :-)
  160. # [00:57] <Hixie> actually i think it works fine if you make a (previously-visible) ancestor of a modal dialog itself modal. the complication is when the ancestor is display:none
  161. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> roc: And log mutation records?
  162. # [00:58] <zcorpan> and we don't set outline. would need to set outline on all elements except the fullscreen element and its descendants, not only ancestors of the fullscreen element
  163. # [00:58] <Hixie> but i think the solution there is just that in that case nothing visible happens
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  165. # [00:58] <roc> TabAtkins: I don't think I'm serious. It would break stuff.
  166. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I know. ^_^
  167. # [00:58] <roc> but
  168. # [00:59] <roc> having elements punch all the way out of effects from CSS containers, while still inheriting style from those containers, seems super painful :-(
  169. # [00:59] <Hixie> why?
  170. # [00:59] <Hixie> (just trying to understand the constraints)
  171. # [00:59] <roc> It's a new behavior
  172. # [01:00] <Hixie> (i believe you that's it's painful!)
  173. # [01:00] <roc> breaks existing CSS invariants
  174. # [01:00] <Hixie> my mental model was that you just move the element's boxes into a different part of the render tree
  175. # [01:00] <Hixie> and act as if it's display:none in the original tree
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  177. # [01:01] <roc> yeah, it's actually pretty easy for us to implement that way
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  179. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> Yeah, moving the render tree around is sensical.
  180. # [01:01] <roc> however
  181. # [01:01] <roc> understanding all the implications of that, for the CSS spec, is hard
  182. # [01:01] <Hixie> (notably, there's no double-rendering going on, which is the usual complication)
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  184. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> roc: The implications are pretty reasonable, I think.
  185. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> If you're literally just mutating the box tree.
  186. # [01:02] <roc> so of course, the sensible thing to do would be to rush out the obvious implementation and let someone else clean up the mess
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  188. # [01:03] <roc> it wouldn't be so bad if the CSS specs weren't generally confused about box tree vs element tree
  189. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> There's a lot less of that left than there used to be, at least. :/
  190. # [01:03] <Hixie> yeah, i really wish we had someone to do the "CSS5" treatment on the box model and related areas
  191. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> Big thing that's still broken to me is the table fix-up.
  192. # [01:05] <Hixie> ok so new stacking layer with all its css implications, push and yank algorithms, and the new pseudo for backdrops
  193. # [01:05] <Hixie> am i missing anything?
  194. # [01:05] <roc> Hixie: so I think perhaps the way to go is to define a new positioning scheme, say position:viewport, which behaves like fixed but escapes from all ancestor effects, might be the way to go
  195. # [01:06] <Hixie> roc: that's basically what i'm proposing, except without the new value. we need the existing 'position' values to control the positioning.
  196. # [01:06] <Hixie> roc: since e.g. fullscreen wants to be position:fixed, but <Dialog> wants to be position:absolute or position:center, typically
  197. # [01:07] <Hixie> roc: also, we wouldn't want the author to be able to put elements into this layer from CSS, since if we did that we'd lose the ordering
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  199. # [01:07] <Hixie> roc: which is the most important aspect of this :-)
  200. # [01:07] <roc> how would your new thing behave with position:static, then?
  201. # [01:07] <Hixie> to quote from the e-mail i'm writing to whatwg:
  202. # [01:07] <Hixie> The 'position' property for elements in one of these stacks computes to
  203. # [01:07] <Hixie> 'absolute', 'fixed', or 'center' if that is its specifed value, and to
  204. # [01:07] <Hixie> 'absolute' if the specified value is anything else.
  205. # [01:07] <roc> ok
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  207. # [01:08] <roc> er wait
  208. # [01:09] <roc> so how does a position:absolute <dialog> element inside a transformed element behave? It somehow gets its layout from the transformed element but isn't affected by the transform?
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  210. # [01:09] <Hixie> to quote from my e-mail again:
  211. # [01:09] <Hixie> The containing block for such an element is the initial containing
  212. # [01:09] <Hixie> block, same as for the root element.
  213. # [01:10] <Hixie> (so the transform has no effect)
  214. # [01:10] <Hixie> (not sure what you mean by "gets its layout")
  215. # [01:10] <roc> what is the static position for left/top?
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  218. # [01:11] <roc> also
  219. # [01:11] <Hixie> hm, good point, have to define the static position
  220. # [01:11] <roc> the CSS Regions people redefined initial containing block so that it's a property of elements, there's no longer "the initial containing block"
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  223. # [01:11] <Hixie> o_O
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  225. # [01:12] <Hixie> see, this is why there should only be one CSS spec and it should be continuously maintained
  226. # [01:12] <roc> actually I'm not sure what ended up happening there, but you might want to check
  227. # [01:13] <roc> Hixie: at this point I should probably just wait for you to post the email
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  229. # [01:13] <roc> the general direction seems scary, but I can't think of a better approach
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  231. # [01:13] <Hixie> roc: your feedback has been very helpful so far, please don't hesitate to keep talking :-)
  232. # [01:14] <roc> yeah, but I've got work to do :-)
  233. # [01:14] <Hixie> fair enough :-)
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  235. # [01:16] <Hixie> is http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-regions/Overview.src.html the regions spec?
  236. # [01:16] <astearns> yep
  237. # [01:16] <Hixie> it doesn't seem to redefine containing block
  238. # [01:16] <Hixie> it defers to 2.1
  239. # [01:16] <astearns> The edges of the first region in a region chain associated with a named flow establish the rectangle that is the containing block used for absolutely positioned elements in the named flow which do not have an ancestor with a ‘position’ of ‘absolute’, ‘relative’ or ‘fixed’ (see [CSS21]). That first region rectangle is used as the containing block instead of the initial containing block.
  240. # [01:16] <astearns> that's it
  241. # [01:17] <Hixie> ah ok
  242. # [01:17] <Hixie> that seems harmless enough
  243. # [01:17] <astearns> we hope so :)
  244. # [01:17] <Hixie> since i'm just bypassing the whole tree
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  250. # [01:21] <Hixie> ok, e-mail away
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  269. # [02:09] <tantek> Thanks for the discussion and write-up Hixie. Looking forward to seeing the full(-)screen/dialog stuff make progress.
  270. # [02:09] <tantek> Now, as far as fullscreen vs full-screen vs fullScreen ...
  271. # [02:09] <hober> indeed
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  276. # [02:17] <TabAtkins> I think we should use :fullScreen in CSS, and full-screen in JS.
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  313. # [04:09] <Hixie> TabAtkins: wow you almost had me responding to you there
  314. # [04:09] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i need to update my troll detector's firmware!
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  325. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> heh, "self-beclowning"
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  371. # [09:25] <charlvn> #tkkrlab
  372. # [09:26] <charlvn> ah sorry, ignore that, didn't type the command correctly
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  381. # [09:48] <smaug____> annevk: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dom-mutationobserver-observe context object should be target, not options
  382. # [09:50] <Ms2ger> smaug____, why's that?
  383. # [09:51] <smaug____> Ms2ger: well, I don't understand how context object can be options
  384. # [09:51] <annevk> smaug____: we can just say it is for those substeps
  385. # [09:51] <annevk> childList etc. are all discussed in the context of options then
  386. # [09:51] <Ms2ger> It's just with(options) { foo(childList); }
  387. # [09:51] <Ms2ger> Instead of foo(options.childList)
  388. # [09:52] <annevk> it's only for 1
  389. # [09:52] <smaug____> ah
  390. # [09:52] <smaug____> so it is not for 2.
  391. # [09:53] <smaug____> strangely worded
  392. # [09:53] <annevk> how would you word it?
  393. # [09:53] <smaug____> well, don't talk about context object A in 1. and context object B in 2.
  394. # [09:56] <annevk> that would make them much more verbose
  395. # [09:56] <annevk> but if this is hard to comprehend, maybe we should do that
  396. # [09:57] <annevk> if someone else tells me the same thing I'll take a look
  397. # [09:57] <smaug____> both I and sicking were reading that last week
  398. # [09:57] <smaug____> and thought that there was something odd
  399. # [09:57] <smaug____> also, that doesn't say what happens to transient observers
  400. # [09:58] <smaug____> er, perhaps it does
  401. # [09:58] <smaug____> but I think it is not right
  402. # [09:59] <smaug____> existing transient observers should be removed, I think, when calling observe()
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  406. # [10:20] <annevk> fullscreen proposal looks good
  407. # [10:20] <annevk> apart from the missing bits or the bits I'm missing :p
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  413. # [10:53] <annevk> smaug____: when do you plan on removing the prefix?
  414. # [10:53] <annevk> smaug____: having a prefix does not help if we want people to move away from the old API
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  417. # [11:04] <annevk> http://rumotan.com/guan/modules/tinyd3/ multiple doctypes, incompatible encoding declarations, multiple root elements, good times
  418. # [11:05] <annevk> but apart from how to deal with big5, I think most of what a user agent has to do there is actually now defined
  419. # [11:05] <annevk> we've come a long way since 2004 :)
  420. # [11:06] <jgraham> (this comment was redacted for cynicism)
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  432. # [11:36] <smaug____> annevk: I agree
  433. # [11:36] <smaug____> annevk: need to stabilize the API still a bit, IMO
  434. # [11:37] <smaug____> add that takeMutation() or something similar
  435. # [11:37] <smaug____> takeMutations()
  436. # [11:38] <smaug____> annevk: what is Opera's plan
  437. # [11:38] * smaug____ should ask also MS
  438. # [11:38] <smaug____> When will MS release IE10?
  439. # [11:42] <annevk> we're fine with the API, just need to free up resources
  440. # [11:44] <annevk> takeMutations() sounds pretty terrible btw
  441. # [11:46] <smaug____> foo.take*() is used often in gecko, when the idea is to return some existing object(s) and drop the reference to those in foo
  442. # [11:46] <smaug____> but perhaps it is a bit ugly name :)
  443. # [11:49] <annevk> what is the problem with having disconnect() return them?
  444. # [11:49] <annevk> the pending records
  445. # [11:49] <annevk> that seems quite clean to me
  446. # [11:49] <smaug____> that sounds very odd
  447. # [11:49] <smaug____> that disconnect() returns anything
  448. # [11:50] <annevk> yeah maybe
  449. # [11:50] <smaug____> also, I think we want a method to take the current records, but still keep observing
  450. # [11:50] <smaug____> fetch() doesn't sound too bad
  451. # [11:50] <annevk> fetch is network related usually
  452. # [11:50] <annevk> getPendingRecords() ?
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  454. # [11:51] <smaug____> get* doesn't indicate that the records are dropped in the observer
  455. # [11:54] <annevk> maybe it should be takeMutationRecords
  456. # [11:55] <annevk> all sounds bad :(
  457. # [11:55] <smaug____> takeRecords() ?
  458. # [11:55] <smaug____> yeah
  459. # [11:55] <annevk> takeRecords() is better than takeMutations at least
  460. # [11:56] <annevk> and it returns sequence<MutationRecord> I guess
  461. # [11:56] <annevk> hmm
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  463. # [11:58] <annevk> whoa https://www.gov.uk/designprinciples is pretty awesome
  464. # [12:02] <Ms2ger> Much as I hate github, https://github.com/alphagov is nice
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  472. # [12:32] <jgraham> Yeah, the people doing UK Government we/open access data stuff seem to be pretty awesome
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  474. # [12:32] <jgraham> Oh, that was the same words annevk used.
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  476. # [12:32] <jgraham> I didn't mean to do that
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  481. # [12:35] <jgraham> s/we/web/
  482. # [12:35] <jgraham> So many errors. I should really have said anything at all.
  483. # [12:36] <annevk> was that intentional? :)
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  485. # [12:36] <jgraham> Fuck
  486. # [12:36] <jgraham> No
  487. # [12:36] <annevk> if it's any consolation, I'm amused
  488. # [12:36] <jgraham> Good, good
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  490. # [12:38] <annevk> zcorpan: btw re fullscreen, I decided that layout would be someone else's problem
  491. # [12:38] <annevk> zcorpan: it seems I might have to define it after all though, but at least Hixie worked out how (mostly)
  492. # [12:38] <annevk> (re some comment on outline from late last night)
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  495. # [12:41] <jgraham> (having siad all of that one of the examples on that page about what not to do actually poited to a really interesting page about keeping bees. Which in turn allowed me to find an even more interesting page about keeping pigs and the regulations associated with that)
  496. # [12:42] <Ms2ger> siad?
  497. # [12:43] <jgraham> I know
  498. # [12:43] <Philip`> poited?
  499. # [12:43] <annevk> jgraham is the gsnedders of typing today :p
  500. # [12:43] <jgraham> gsnedders is full of fail?
  501. # [12:43] <Ms2ger> Oh, brun
  502. # [12:44] <annevk> jgraham: didn't mean it quite like that
  503. # [12:44] <annevk> oh well
  504. # [12:44] <jgraham> :)
  505. # [12:44] <annevk> so some of these big5 pages like the trailing "..." thing too
  506. # [12:44] <annevk> but they are probably implemented using PHP or so with no respect for lead and trail bytes
  507. # [12:44] <zcorpan> what thing?
  508. # [12:45] <annevk> "This sentence is too l..."
  509. # [12:45] <annevk> so you get a lead byte followed by a .
  510. # [12:46] <annevk> which is invalid of course and is invalid in each browser, and ends up as noise in my data
  511. # [12:46] <zcorpan> ah
  512. # [12:46] <Philip`> "... an AML2 ‘report of a pig movement’ form ..." - surely that'd generate a huge amount of paperwork unless you tie your pig down to stop it wandering around
  513. # [12:47] <jgraham> I imagine it work like geolocation events.
  514. # [12:47] <zcorpan> i've seen stuff like "See my résum&acut..." too
  515. # [12:48] <zcorpan> er, wrong entity, but you get the idea
  516. # [12:49] <Ms2ger> You mean "See my <a href=resume>résum&eacut..."
  517. # [12:53] <annevk> 20 2E 2E 2E is also used it seems
  518. # [12:53] <annevk> preceded by a lead byte
  519. # [12:54] <annevk> alright, so the errors are indeed actual errors in the pages
  520. # [12:58] <annevk> oops, made an error
  521. # [12:59] <annevk> in the A3 byte checking
  522. # [13:00] <annevk> instead of about 50 pages using quite a few A3 reserved stuff, there's only two pages with one sequence each
  523. # [13:01] <annevk> #win
  524. # [13:06] <annevk> in one page it's inside a <meta>; in the other page it doesn't render correctly anywhere...
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  526. # [13:10] <annevk> I wish the component when filing bugs would always be HTML5 spec
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  528. # [13:13] <zcorpan> why did that bug get the wrong component?
  529. # [13:13] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^ ( https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16635 )
  530. # [13:13] <zcorpan> it got 'other hixie drafts'
  531. # [13:14] <annevk> all bugs filed via WHATWG get that
  532. # [13:15] <annevk> it changed quite some time ago
  533. # [13:15] <zcorpan> oh?
  534. # [13:16] <zcorpan> oh well
  535. # [13:16] <annevk> I've been meaning to ask Hixie to change that around, because more than one silly revert requests was because of that
  536. # [13:16] <annevk> not that anyone cares about that anymore these days, so maybe that's why I forgot
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  541. # [13:38] <annevk> http://speakerdeck.com/u/jaffathecake/p/application-cache-douchebag mwaha
  542. # [13:39] <annevk> appcache is hard
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  544. # [13:42] <annevk> some of this content is rather weird
  545. # [13:42] <annevk> "Strongly agree!!! Letting unlimited pregnant ladies come to HK to deliver is ridiculous! We shall follow what Western countries are doing: stop letting pregnant ladies in. "
  546. # [13:42] <annevk> some kind of forum thread
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  548. # [13:45] <annevk> <center><table border=0><tr><td valign=top><html><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=big5">
  549. # [13:45] <annevk> :)
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  551. # [13:49] <Ms2ger> Well said, HolyEagle
  552. # [13:50] <Ms2ger> I love how that site uses document.layers
  553. # [13:55] <annevk> HolyEagle knows where it's at
  554. # [13:56] <jarek> why SVG filters renders so slow on user agents? Is it a technical limitation or does the implementation is just unoptimised?
  555. # [13:56] <Ms2ger> Because nobody uses them, I guess
  556. # [13:56] <jarek> even simple gausian blur can lock Chrome when you zoom it in
  557. # [13:57] <jarek> oops, sorry for typos
  558. # [13:57] * jgraham guesses the right answer is "yes"
  559. # [13:57] <jgraham> and probably would still be if you s/or/and/
  560. # [13:57] <jgraham> That is, I wouldn't be surprised if there are SVG filters that are intrinsically slow
  561. # [13:58] <jgraham> But I would be surprised if they are optimised in implementations
  562. # [13:58] <jgraham> +well
  563. # [13:59] <jarek> I have noticed that even professional software such as Adobe Illustrator "cheats" when rendering filters
  564. # [13:59] <annevk> found this page that has no DOCTYPE, encoded in big5, tries to nest <form> inside <tr> (one <table>, three <tr>, three nested <form>), and the kicker is that the form submits to some URL wiht a query parameter whose value contains big5 encoded characters
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  566. # [14:00] <jarek> so it looks like it's impossible to render them in real time without high CPU usage
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  569. # [14:01] <annevk> jarek: should probably bring that up on public-gfx@w3.org or some such
  570. # [14:02] <jarek> annevk: no, I don't want W3C to stop adding new filters :P
  571. # [14:02] <jarek> annevk: I should rather nag the vendors to implement GPU accelerated rendering
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  592. # [14:44] <roc> yeah
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  608. # [15:50] <annevk> Ms2ger: or did something change and are you willing to publish DOM Parsing through the HTML WW now?
  609. # [15:50] <annevk> euh, WG
  610. # [15:50] <Ms2ger> Nothing changed, why?
  611. # [15:50] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0027.html
  612. # [15:52] * Ms2ger shrugs
  613. # [15:52] <annevk> the HTML WG, where the chairs are robots, the editors don't care, and a few people circlejerk
  614. # [15:53] <Ms2ger> One more abandoned spec in the HTMLWG, news at 10
  615. # [15:53] <annevk> heh
  616. # [15:53] <annevk> it's not exactly abandoned
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  619. # [15:55] <annevk> make it modular, make it modular, make it modular
  620. # [15:56] <annevk> but oh god, once you do that and decentralize development, people get upset
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  622. # [15:56] <annevk> decentralized extensibility please, developed centralized please
  623. # [15:57] <Ms2ger> I wonder if they're going to stick a "Copyright W3C" onto it to prevent forks
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  625. # [15:59] <Ms2ger> Heh
  626. # [16:00] <Ms2ger> Web Workers still references Web DOM Core
  627. # [16:01] <annevk> I guess Julian only cares about IETF draft references
  628. # [16:02] <Ms2ger> And code points
  629. # [16:02] <annevk> not the Encoding spec though
  630. # [16:03] <annevk> maybe it needs more references
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  632. # [16:03] <annevk> at some point I should reference 1) Unicode and 2) all the old silly specs that were wrong
  633. # [16:04] <zcorpan> why do you need to reference the wrong specs?
  634. # [16:05] <annevk> we do that in DOM4 too, for people who are interested in prior work
  635. # [16:05] <Ms2ger> Is position:center a thing?
  636. # [16:06] <annevk> Ms2ger: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-positioning/#center-positioning
  637. # [16:06] <annevk> Ms2ger: it's been floating around on www-style for ages
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  639. # [16:08] <annevk> http://webkitmemes.tumblr.com/post/20464202966/meanwhile-in-the-reviewers-lounge lol
  640. # [16:08] <Ms2ger> Yay, concesus!
  641. # [16:08] <Ms2ger> http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1v3rkjMvL1rrf1eeo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAI6WLSGT7Y3ET7ADQ&Expires=1333634508&Signature=9yoalJSJC6bZgj%2FvsRzlv47%2Bxfc%3D
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  646. # [16:13] <matjas> zcorpan: https://github.com/douglascrockford/JSLint/issues/114#issuecomment-4766052 what just happened
  647. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: thanks for writing up warnings for the DOM specs
  648. # [16:14] <Ms2ger> Yw
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  650. # [16:15] <annevk> matjas: old news man
  651. # [16:15] <matjas> annevk: no I mean… you actually got crockford to fix something
  652. # [16:16] <matjas> well, new to me
  653. # [16:16] <Velmont> :-)
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  658. # [16:31] <annevk> bdo, bdo:matches([dir=ltr i], [dir=rtl i])
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  660. # [16:31] <annevk> why does the second selector matter?
  661. # [16:32] <zcorpan> matjas: apparently it's harder to get someone to fix jshint
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  663. # [16:33] <Ms2ger> annevk, specificity?
  664. # [16:34] <annevk> Ms2ger: yeah guess so
  665. # [16:34] <annevk> Ms2ger: also, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Feb/0479.html
  666. # [16:35] <Ms2ger> "Ms2ger @ Mozilla" <ms2ger@gmail.com>
  667. # [16:35] <Ms2ger> Hah
  668. # [16:37] <zcorpan> it seems mighty weird to use the escalation process for drafts that are not owned by the html wg
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  670. # [16:39] <jgraham> s/ for drafts.*//
  671. # [16:39] <Ms2ger> What he said
  672. # [16:40] <annevk> stop escalating things jgraham :p
  673. # [16:40] <zcorpan> why do i keep getting empty emails from dave.penkler@hp.com ?
  674. # [16:40] <annevk> zcorpan: me too
  675. # [16:40] <annevk> if I ever meet him, I might tell him to fix his email client
  676. # [16:40] * zcorpan marks as spam
  677. # [16:41] <annevk> lots of www-tag ends up in my spam folder these days
  678. # [16:41] <Ms2ger> You've got a good spam filter, then
  679. # [16:41] <zcorpan> why are you subscribed to www-tag?
  680. # [16:42] <annevk> I found it interesting at one point and then never reevaluated my position
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  686. # [16:58] <annevk> so out of the 609 pages that did not fail to download, 22 have "problematic" sequences
  687. # [16:58] <annevk> and 2 of those are big5-hkscs so they're probably not problematic
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  689. # [17:00] <jgraham> So 3% of pages? That is quite a lot
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  691. # [17:04] <annevk> yes
  692. # [17:04] <annevk> but only 0.01% of the characters or so
  693. # [17:04] <annevk> the problem is however there's no interoperability
  694. # [17:05] <annevk> see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Apr/0019.html for the data
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  696. # [17:07] <annevk> oh shit
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  699. # [17:09] <annevk> off by one error
  700. # [17:09] <annevk> teehee
  701. # [17:09] <annevk> all the URLs are wrong
  702. # [17:10] <annevk> :(
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  704. # [17:15] <jgraham> Wow, some range of emotions there
  705. # [17:15] <annevk> still sick
  706. # [17:16] <annevk> corrected data is here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Apr/0020.html
  707. # [17:18] <annevk> I think I just got misattributed http://infrequently.org/2012/04/one-for-dave-and-david/
  708. # [17:20] <jgraham> I have no memory of anyone saying that the disconnect between host objects and native objects is pure awesome that has to be preserved
  709. # [17:21] <jgraham> I do remember people saying that his solutions were naive and didn't account for the realities of the platform as it exists today
  710. # [17:21] <gsnedders> Nobody said that.
  711. # [17:23] <jgraham> Nobody said what?
  712. # [17:23] <gsnedders> That the differences between host and native objects are pure awesome.
  713. # [17:23] <gsnedders> ES6 is totally redefining what host objects do, and limiting what they can do.
  714. # [17:24] <jgraham> Well it can't limit what they can do to less than they actually do do
  715. # [17:24] <jgraham> Or it can but it will be a work of fiction
  716. # [17:24] <gsnedders> jgraham: It already does that.
  717. # [17:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: With stuff like the limitations on property attributes and stuff.
  718. # [17:25] <jgraham> Anyway Alex seems to be attacking a strawman
  719. # [17:25] <gsnedders> I think basically all ES engine APIs allow the host object contract to be violated.
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  721. # [17:26] * annevk adds comment
  722. # [17:26] <annevk> someone said something like that
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  724. # [17:27] <annevk> I think Hixie thought the separation made sense, but I'm not sure to the same extent as Alex makes it seem
  725. # [17:27] <annevk> thought/thinks, dunno, and I've no idea what I think either
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  727. # [17:29] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure that the degree to which it was "like that" is less than entirely
  728. # [17:30] <jgraham> Anyway, I agree with your comment that this requires change on the js side as well as the DOM side
  729. # [17:30] <gsnedders> (FWIW, in 2006 ES4 was still going on, so it seems hardly surprising that nothing came of that, when most of the work was basically just rewriting ES3 afterwards)
  730. # [17:31] <annevk> sure there's a ton of explanations why it didn't end up awesome
  731. # [17:32] <jgraham> Sure. The hsitory of the platform is riddled with tragedy and missed oppertunities.
  732. # [17:32] <gsnedders> ES6 will have binary data, at least.
  733. # [17:32] <annevk> I guess we should figure out how to avoid that in the future
  734. # [17:32] <annevk> I still think doing JavaScript elsewhere would help
  735. # [17:32] <gsnedders> The big issue was wasting years on ES4.
  736. # [17:33] <gsnedders> Should we have continued down that route after MS said they wouldn't impl it? Hard to know.
  737. # [17:33] <annevk> prolly
  738. # [17:33] <annevk> MS wouldn't implement XHR2 either
  739. # [17:33] <gsnedders> The market is a very difference place now than then, though, so beckoning to them seems more sensible then than now.
  740. # [17:33] <annevk> or unencumbered fonts
  741. # [17:34] <gsnedders> Still, ES4 was probably too far fetched.
  742. # [17:34] <annevk> XHR2 happened in 2006 too
  743. # [17:34] <gsnedders> It would've taken years to get impls of.
  744. # [17:34] <jgraham> Yeah Microsoft aren't anything special on the web these days.
  745. # [17:34] <annevk> yeah dunno about ES4 either
  746. # [17:35] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that ES4 has an element of second system syndrone
  747. # [17:35] <annevk> but it doesn't seem to me that ES is being developed with what's needed by APIs
  748. # [17:35] <annevk> at least I hardly get the impression the JavaScript guys look at the platform side much
  749. # [17:35] <jgraham> It isn't clear to me why ES releases have to be huge numbered things
  750. # [17:35] <jgraham> Why not add one feature at a time
  751. # [17:36] <gsnedders> Not only that, but far too much cutting-edge research going into something unproven.
  752. # [17:36] <jgraham> With an overall design arc of course
  753. # [17:36] <gsnedders> jgraham: Depends what changes you want. Syntax changes it makes a fair bit of sense for, you know you either get SyntaxError or you have all of these features.
  754. # [17:36] <jgraham> Well syntax changes are pretty mcuh evil anyway
  755. # [17:36] <gsnedders> *while still being mostly unproven
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  757. # [17:37] <gsnedders> jgraham: But if you want to further a language, almost certainly needed.
  758. # [17:37] <gsnedders> What language continues to be developed without syntax changes?
  759. # [17:37] <jgraham> Probably
  760. # [17:37] <jgraham> Given some import mechanism one could allow individual feature to be imported
  761. # [17:38] <jgraham> "use strict;destructuring;let"
  762. # [17:38] <jgraham> and then later
  763. # [17:38] <jgraham> "use v6"
  764. # [17:38] <jgraham> that implies a set of features
  765. # [17:38] <gsnedders> jgraham: The idea as of ES5 was "use strict"; "destructuring"; "let";
  766. # [17:38] <gsnedders> i.e., each is a separate string
  767. # [17:38] <jgraham> Do you mean 5?
  768. # [17:38] <gsnedders> Yes.
  769. # [17:39] <gsnedders> That was the idea.
  770. # [17:39] <gsnedders> Obviously there was only one pragma then.
  771. # [17:39] <jgraham> Oh.
  772. # [17:39] <gsnedders> In ES6 we just have new semantics within modules and not outwith.
  773. # [17:39] <jgraham> Anyway, more incremental development would be good
  774. # [17:40] <gsnedders> I think most of the limit is getting consensus and editorial resources.
  775. # [17:40] <jgraham> Better communications between the people developing the platform APIs and the language would be good
  776. # [17:40] <gsnedders> And it's not clear how to speed that up.
  777. # [17:40] <jgraham> Well it isn't as much of a problem in HTML/WebApps/etc.
  778. # [17:41] <gsnedders> Yeah, but it's not massively surprising that the language becomes a box, seeming it is a fairly disjoint part of impls, so people tend not to touch so much outwith it, as is the case with DOM and stuff.
  779. # [17:43] <Ms2ger> It's even more fun if you try to spec something inside that box with WebIDL
  780. # [17:43] <jgraham> That isn't entirely true
  781. # [17:43] <jgraham> I mean plenty of people that work on javascript engines alsop work on other parts of the browser
  782. # [17:44] <jgraham> It's just that they're typically not on es-discuss
  783. # [17:44] <gsnedders> jgraham: Outside of Opera, who?
  784. # [17:44] <jgraham> People at Mozilla afaict
  785. # [17:44] <jgraham> Not the major contributers to the ES engine perhaps
  786. # [17:44] <gsnedders> Most of the work on SM comes from people working full time on it.
  787. # [17:44] <jgraham> But people
  788. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> Some JS people work on bindings over here
  789. # [17:45] <gsnedders> Well, sure. But people who only do occasional work on it probably are less inclined to get involved with it.
  790. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> Not many venture out further, though, I think
  791. # [17:45] <hober> Hixie: if you could review http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-194 at some point today, that would be awesome.
  792. # [17:46] <hober> Hixie: specifically, i'd like to be able to say something to the effect of " When asked, the editor has indicated that this prose description is unambiguous and detailed enough for him to make the requested changes." :)
  793. # [17:46] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaa41-74736162.cust.telenor.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  794. # [17:47] <hober> Hixie: also, any other comments / questions / suggestions you might have would be much appreciated. (same goes for the rest of you, of course.)
  795. # [17:47] <hober> the sooner i finish this cp, the sooner i can work on the "defense of canvas v5" cp
  796. # [17:48] <Ms2ger> Or you could get useful work done :)
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  798. # [17:53] <annevk> added another comment
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  800. # [17:53] <annevk> http://infrequently.org/2012/04/one-for-dave-and-david/comment-page-1/#comment-239690
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  812. # [18:08] <jgraham> I thought that bz did some SpiderMonkey work, sometimes. I though smaug____ was changing the gc recently?
  813. # [18:08] <smaug____> gc? no
  814. # [18:08] <smaug____> I've been hacking cc
  815. # [18:08] <jgraham> Oh, then I misunderstood something
  816. # [18:08] <jgraham> Happens all the time :)
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  818. # [18:09] <hober> Ms2ger: that's what the whatwg is for :)
  819. # [18:10] <Ms2ger> jgraham, well, bz... Not all of us can keep all the C++ that goes into Firefox in our heads :)
  820. # [18:11] <jgraham> Right, I didn't say it was normal humans :)
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  829. # [18:23] <gsnedders> s/humans//
  830. # [18:23] * gsnedders still has no evidence that bz is human
  831. # [18:24] <gsnedders> (Has a physical existance, yes, but not whether he's human.(
  832. # [18:24] <gsnedders> s/\($/)/
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  834. # [18:24] <gsnedders> I really can't type today…
  835. # [18:24] <jgraham> I don't even know what would count as evidence that someone is human
  836. # [18:25] <jgraham> I believe he has managed to procreate successfully? But that could be with another non-human.
  837. # [18:25] <gsnedders> Or could be some weird cross-species thing.
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  843. # [18:29] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  850. # [18:39] <annevk> http://paul.kinlan.me/dear-appcache/ use #?
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  858. # [19:00] <gsnedders> DOM5, defined entirely by a set of ES6 algorithms (as opposed to the English of DOM4)?
  859. # [19:01] <gsnedders> Stuff like making tagName [[Writeable: false]] when it first gets added to the document is trivial in ES, difficult in WebIDL.
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  861. # [19:03] <annevk> but I think he got that wrong
  862. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you around? I wanted to ask you about possibility of using org.whattf.syntax.Driver for command-line validation
  863. # [19:03] <annevk> you don't want it to change ever, because tagName relates to what the object exposes
  864. # [19:04] <annevk> temporal mutability might be nice though; we might have designed events differently i imagine
  865. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I don't completely understand that code, but it seems like it enables validation without actually running the validator as a web service; if so, it would be great to extend is so it can just take a list of local files as args
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  870. # [19:14] <MikeSmith> https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2012-April/020174.html
  871. # [19:14] <smaug____> seriously
  872. # [19:17] * smaug____ so much hopes webkit community would fight for the open web
  873. # [19:17] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  874. # [19:18] <gsnedders> annevk: R
  875. # [19:18] <gsnedders> *Right, it would involve mutating the [[Prototype]
  876. # [19:19] <Ms2ger> smaug____, Google publishes a draft, Google forces an implementation through, Google uses the feature on their websites... I wonder what these have in common
  877. # [19:19] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Apple
  878. # [19:19] <gsnedders> Oh, wait, no, the other one!
  879. # [19:20] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, Opera did it fir... I guess not
  880. # [19:20] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: No, that was video. :P
  881. # [19:20] <gsnedders> Until you reach the part of actually shipping a final implementation.
  882. # [19:20] <Ms2ger> Hah, final implementation
  883. # [19:21] <gsnedders> Well…
  884. # [19:21] <gsnedders> You know what I mean. :P
  885. # [19:22] <Ms2ger> Opera did it last?
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  887. # [19:23] <gsnedders> Shipping a release with it included.
  888. # [19:23] <gsnedders> We were the first to ship any build with it included, the ones who pushed for the spec… and the last to release.
  889. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> See
  890. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> Don't push for a spec
  891. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> Let someone else write the spec *after* that
  892. # [19:24] <Ms2ger> Like Opera QA
  893. # [19:24] <gsnedders> I think the push for a spec was, "we think a video element would be cool, kthxbai"
  894. # [19:24] <gsnedders> And then people were like "O RLY?"
  895. # [19:24] <gsnedders> And then others were like "YA RLY."
  896. # [19:24] <Ms2ger> Oh, I thought it was "an audio JS object would be cool"
  897. # [19:25] <gsnedders> Oh, no, it was already in the spec by the time we implemented it, and had been for a while.
  898. # [19:25] <gsnedders> Just nobody gave a shit.
  899. # [19:26] <gsnedders> Or at least not to do much about it.
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  904. # [19:34] <annevk> gsnedders: if ES6 gets bytes, are they aware of the encoding API?
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  906. # [19:34] <annevk> gsnedders: do they envision changes to platform APIs, or are they not looking at it from that perspective?
  907. # [19:36] <gsnedders> annevk: The aim was to get something such that Typed arrays can be redefined in terms of it
  908. # [19:36] <gsnedders> annevk: And I don't think encoding APIs have been discussed
  909. # [19:37] <Hixie> hober: yt?
  910. # [19:37] <gsnedders> annevk: But you'd be better off asking someone actually on TC39
  911. # [19:37] <hober> Hixie: yo
  912. # [19:38] <Hixie> hober: what's the expected implementation of for=""?
  913. # [19:38] <annevk> gsnedders: I like using you as proxy :)
  914. # [19:38] <gsnedders> annevk: I tend not to speak to anyone on TC39 :P
  915. # [19:39] <annevk> details
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  918. # [19:39] <Hixie> hober: (isn't the usual UI going to be going from the video to the transcript, rather than going from the link to the transcript, to the video?)
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  921. # [19:39] <hober> the usual ui for usual users would simply be clicking on the transcript link
  922. # [19:39] <tantek> rel=transcript?
  923. # [19:40] <hober> but using for="" allows AT to expose the fact that the video has a transcript associated with it
  924. # [19:40] <hober> tantek: yup
  925. # [19:40] <annevk> can't you do the same trick we do with blockquote
  926. # [19:40] <hober> (and it allows the transcript to be exposed in default and/or custom video controls)
  927. # [19:40] <annevk> paragraph preceding/following with a link that has rel=transcript
  928. # [19:40] <Hixie> hober: so the UA is expected to walk every <a> element in the DOM to look for elements that point to the video?
  929. # [19:40] <tantek> sounds like we're crossing over into media-info microformats like stuff
  930. # [19:41] <hober> Hixie: unfortunately
  931. # [19:41] <tantek> here's a video, a license for it, a transcript, author etc.
  932. # [19:41] <Hixie> hober: that seems like a non-starter
  933. # [19:41] <hober> Hixie: the relationship is many-to-one
  934. # [19:41] <hober> because one media element may have many transcripts
  935. # [19:41] <Hixie> hober: one transcript could apply to many media elements, too :-)
  936. # [19:41] <hober> <video transcript=foo></video...<a id=foo> only lets you point at one
  937. # [19:42] <hober> Hixie: i think that would be a much less common case
  938. # [19:42] <Hixie> hober: if we do this at all, which frankly i think is silly, why not make transcript="" a space-separated idref?
  939. # [19:42] <tantek> make transcript attr multivalued then like class
  940. # [19:42] <tantek> IDRefs
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  942. # [19:42] <hober> Hixie: that could work
  943. # [19:43] <Hixie> hober: honestly though this seems like a waste of time, nobody's actually going to use this, and the few who do use it can just use aria-describedby
  944. # [19:43] * hober adds that design to the list of considered designs
  945. # [19:44] <hober> Hixie: well, waste of time or not, the CP deadline is today, and the other CP on the table is worse :/ i'm hoping nessy submits a zero-edit "punt this until html.next" CP too; she said she might
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  947. # [19:45] <Hixie> hober: if this was a whatwg proposal, i would reject it on the basis of lack of serious use cases and no indication that any implementor was actually going to do anything with it, that <track> already provides what is necessary for accessibility, and that just having a link in the page markup was plenty sufficient to handle the remaining use cases.
  948. # [19:46] <Hixie> hober: honestly i think i prefer the other CP. It is far less invasive and I can easily just put it in the W3C copy and forget about it.
  949. # [19:46] <hober> between <video transcript="url"> and <video transcript="idref idref idref"></video>, which do you prefer?
  950. # [19:47] <Hixie> which is more likely to get implemented?
  951. # [19:48] <hober> i don't know what other UAs plan to do, and we of course don't comment on our future feature plans. :)
  952. # [19:48] <annevk> neither
  953. # [19:48] <annevk> the former is longdesc which is terrible
  954. # [19:48] <hober> that said, <video transcript="url"> suffers from the metacrap problem
  955. # [19:49] <annevk> the latter is for/id name/map stuff which is also terrible and even worse if there's no observable effect
  956. # [19:49] <hober> and <video transcript="idref idref idref"></video> encourages the transcript link to be visible & in prose near the video element, which is where we want people to put these links
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  958. # [19:49] <Hixie> it doesn't encourage anything
  959. # [19:49] <Hixie> nobody's gonna use it
  960. # [19:50] <Hixie> people who have transcripts are gonna put them wherever they get the most use of their own accord
  961. # [19:50] <Hixie> and most people aren't gonna have transcripts
  962. # [19:51] <hober> i think putting <video transcript="url"> in the (htmlwg) spec would be damaging, so i'm trying to prevent that.
  963. # [19:51] <hober> one way of preventing that is to simply punt on the problem, which is what nessy's cp will cover (assuming she writes it)
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  966. # [19:52] <hober> another way is to try to come up with a design that gets you a programmatic association but that doesn't suffer from the metacrap/longdesc problem
  967. # [19:54] <annevk> is any of the change proposals backed by research into current practice?
  968. # [19:54] <annevk> because if not, a zero change CP is the only way to go
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  970. # [19:54] <annevk> cannot add obscure HTML features based on speculation
  971. # [19:55] <annevk> especially if you can get very close using aria-describedby
  972. # [19:55] <Hixie> hober: what would it damage?
  973. # [19:55] <hober> I'd be perfectly happy if my CP lost to a zero-edit CP in the poll
  974. # [19:56] <annevk> why not just make the zero change CP then?
  975. # [19:56] <hober> Hixie: authors would make the same sorts of authoring errors that they make with longdesc="", so ATs & UAs would be more likely to not expose transcript="" by default
  976. # [19:59] <Hixie> hober: if the damage you are concerned about is just "waste authors' time", then rel=transcript causes the same damage.
  977. # [20:00] <hober> heh
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  979. # [20:02] <webben> @transcript could be surfaced as an icon in the default video controls
  980. # [20:03] * Joins: diraol (~diraol@143.107.108.162)
  981. # [20:03] <webben> that video has controls makes the situation somewhat different to img@longdesc
  982. # [20:04] <Hixie> webben: if any user agent actually wants to do that, that changes matters dramatically
  983. # [20:04] <Hixie> webben: i am currently working for the assumption that nobody is actually going to write any code for this stuff.
  984. # [20:04] <Hixie> webben: in which case, my only concern is optimising for minimal impact on the spec.
  985. # [20:05] <Hixie> annevk: yes, if you fullscreen something in an iframe, you have to fullscreen the iframe as well.
  986. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2012-April/020175.html
  987. # [20:06] * Quits: yoshu (~josh@150.135.119.40) (Quit: yoshu)
  988. # [20:06] <annevk> Hixie: mkay
  989. # [20:06] <annevk> Hixie: so the idea is that in Fullscreen we define this new CSS layout thingie?
  990. # [20:06] <Hixie> annevk: (i suggest the UAs do that automatically)
  991. # [20:06] <Hixie> annevk: yeah
  992. # [20:06] <annevk> Hixie: CSS needs maintenance
  993. # [20:07] <annevk> but okay
  994. # [20:08] <Hixie> yeah tell me about it
  995. # [20:08] <Hixie> you volunteering? :-)
  996. # [20:09] * annevk looks at fake calendar
  997. # [20:09] * annevk suggests 2020
  998. # [20:09] <Ms2ger> annevk, well, that's before HTML5, so, excellent!
  999. # [20:10] <annevk> oh, I accidentally 10 years
  1000. # [20:10] <annevk> I once wanted to define CSS parsing more coherently, but even that I haven't managed to do
  1001. # [20:10] <MikeSmith> "actually define how the content is encrypted" vs hand-waving
  1002. # [20:11] <annevk> defining the layout true seems so much harder
  1003. # [20:11] <Ms2ger> ohunt++
  1004. # [20:11] <annevk> yeah
  1005. # [20:11] <annevk> with the Dart debacle too
  1006. # [20:11] <annevk> one can count on ohunt
  1007. # [20:11] <Ms2ger> annevk, oh, I bet glazou would like it if you started defining layout in a spec whose name doesn't start with "CSS"
  1008. # [20:12] <gsnedders> DOM Layout.
  1009. # [20:12] * Joins: yoshu (~josh@150.135.119.40)
  1010. # [20:12] <annevk> oh hey look, I'm forking CSS 2.1 Appendix E
  1011. # [20:12] <hober> Web Layout :)
  1012. # [20:12] <gsnedders> annevk: Can you fork App. H too?
  1013. # [20:13] <annevk> Ms2ger: I'm arranging a small bunker in my backyard
  1014. # [20:13] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, dammit, I wanted to joke about that, but I had to check which letter it was :(
  1015. # [20:13] <Ms2ger> annevk, small?
  1016. # [20:14] <annevk> for one person, in case glazou decides to go thermonuclear on this
  1017. # [20:14] <annevk> gsnedders: done and done
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  1029. # [20:39] <annevk> so :fullscreen matches the fullscreen element
  1030. # [20:39] <annevk> is there going to be a :modaldialog thing or some such?
  1031. # [20:40] <Hixie> <dialog>
  1032. # [20:40] <Hixie> er
  1033. # [20:40] <Hixie> i guess the selector wouldn't have hte angle brackets!
  1034. # [20:40] <annevk> for the non-modal case I guess you might have several dialogs open
  1035. # [20:40] <Hixie> yes
  1036. # [20:41] <Hixie> those don't end up on the stack
  1037. # [20:41] <Hixie> they're just regular abs-pos
  1038. # [20:41] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.161.196)
  1039. # [20:41] <annevk> ah okay, so twitter user profile dialogs end up on the stack, but G+ user profile dialogs don't
  1040. # [20:45] <Hixie> G+ user profile dialogs? you mean the hovercard things?
  1041. # [20:45] <annevk> yeah
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  1043. # [20:46] <Hixie> sounds right
  1044. # [20:49] <annevk> okay, I'll have a first attempt done somewhere in the next couple of days I hope
  1045. # [20:49] <rafaelw_> smaug___: shall we make a call about MutationObserver::take() ?
  1046. # [20:49] <rafaelw_> I'd like to start prepping a webkit patch.
  1047. # [20:49] <rafaelw_> annevk: also: ^^
  1048. # [20:50] <annevk> takeRecords() ?
  1049. # [20:50] <annevk> just take() wfm
  1050. # [20:50] <annevk> or maybe releaseRecords() ?
  1051. # [20:50] * Parts: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  1052. # [20:50] <rafaelw_> i mildly prefer empty() or clear() to take*, but I'll leave it entirely to your & olli's judgement.
  1053. # [20:51] <smaug____> release... doesn't sound something which returns the records
  1054. # [20:51] <Velmont> Strange behaviour of anne.
  1055. # [20:51] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  1056. # [20:51] <annevk> oops, sorry
  1057. # [20:51] <smaug____> rafaelw_: empty() and clear() don't sound like they would return something
  1058. # [20:51] <rafaelw_> ;-)
  1059. # [20:52] <smaug____> takeRecords() should be pretty clear
  1060. # [20:52] <annevk> is there any spec which does something similar?
  1061. # [20:52] <rafaelw_> heh. (was just typing the same question).
  1062. # [20:52] <annevk> I don't like introducing new patterns, because people always break them
  1063. # [20:52] <smaug____> nothing comes to my minds
  1064. # [20:53] <smaug____> mind even
  1065. # [20:53] <rafaelw_> retrieveRecords() ?
  1066. # [20:53] <Ms2ger> A dragon has many minds?
  1067. # [20:56] <smaug____> retrieve() or reclaim() ?
  1068. # [20:57] <annevk> free() :)
  1069. # [20:57] <rafaelw_> i think i prefer retrieve() to take(). are you guys ok with retrieve()?
  1070. # [20:57] <annevk> sort of, it's harder to spell
  1071. # [20:57] <smaug____> yeah, harder to spell
  1072. # [20:57] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  1073. # [20:58] <rafaelw_> if both you guys want take(), i'll defer to the majority.
  1074. # [20:58] <annevk> well, I don't like take either :)
  1075. # [20:58] <rafaelw_> annevk: what do you like?
  1076. # [20:58] <smaug____> and annevk doesn't like fetch()
  1077. # [20:58] <Ms2ger> Don't let Hixie see you, designing things in committee ;)
  1078. # [20:59] <annevk> rafaelw_: I haven't been able to come up with anything I really like; takeRecords() seems least problematic thus far
  1079. # [20:59] <smaug____> fetchRecords() ?
  1080. # [20:59] <Ms2ger> Fentoooon!
  1081. # [21:00] <Ms2ger> Ahem
  1082. # [21:00] <rafaelw_> sounds like we have a winner.
  1083. # [21:00] <rafaelw_> smaug___ ?
  1084. # [21:00] <smaug____> takeRecords() ?
  1085. # [21:00] <annevk> the annoying thing with fetch is that everything network hangs around that term; that's why I'd like to avoid it
  1086. # [21:00] <rafaelw_> yup. annevk: true.
  1087. # [21:00] <smaug____> takeRecords() is ok to me
  1088. # [21:01] <rafaelw_> i'm fine with takeRecords(). it's not ideal, but i don't have any better ideas.
  1089. # [21:01] <annevk> rafaelw_: same here :/
  1090. # [21:01] <annevk> ok lets do takeRecords()
  1091. # [21:01] <Ms2ger> Pink
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  1093. # [21:02] <annevk> feel free to note that in the bug
  1094. # [21:02] <rafaelw_> done.
  1095. # [21:02] <annevk> it'll be added to the spec within the next couple of days
  1096. # [21:02] <rafaelw_> cool.
  1097. # [21:04] <smaug____> so, takeRecords() returns a sequence of records
  1098. # [21:04] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  1099. # [21:04] <smaug____> hmm, should the callback have a sequence as a parameter
  1100. # [21:04] * smaug____ doesn't know if that affects to anything
  1101. # [21:05] <jwalden> anyone know if it's possible to load a log page from the krijnlogger with more than a single line highlighted, but not highlighted for everyone?
  1102. # [21:07] <smaug____> rafaelw_: should takeRecords() return null or empty array if there are no records
  1103. # [21:07] <smaug____> I think empty
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  1105. # [21:07] <rafaelw_> agree
  1106. # [21:08] <smaug____> also, takeRecords() just takes the current records (removes them from the queue), and does nothing else, right?
  1107. # [21:09] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@65.93.94.10)
  1108. # [21:09] <aklein> smaug____: re: sequence, I think the callback should technically take a sequence, not an array, though I don't believe it matters at all given that the DOM doesn't hold onto a reference to that argument
  1109. # [21:10] <smaug____> aklein: yeah, that is what I was thinking too
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  1121. # [21:21] <annevk> can make it sequence throughout
  1122. # [21:22] <annevk> that's prolly better
  1123. # [21:22] <annevk> heycam|away: should a callback be passed a platform array or sequence?
  1124. # [21:22] <annevk> heycam|away: might be good to outlaw one of the two
  1125. # [21:24] <smaug____> ok, done. Now the boring part, writing tests
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  1128. # [21:25] <Ms2ger> smaug____, think of it as "finding bugs" :)
  1129. # [21:26] <smaug____> that is why we have Jesse
  1130. # [21:27] <Ms2ger> Hah
  1131. # [21:34] <Hixie> hober: we decided on showModal([anchor]), right? not <dialog modal>?
  1132. # [21:35] * Quits: yoshu (~josh@150.135.119.40) (Quit: yoshu)
  1133. # [21:38] <smaug____> will showModal work like showModalDialog ?
  1134. # [21:39] * linclark|afk is now known as linclark
  1135. # [21:39] <smaug____> I assume so
  1136. # [21:39] <Ms2ger> Badly?
  1137. # [21:39] <annevk> I think the idea was to avoid that
  1138. # [21:41] <smaug____> or does the showModal have just callback which is called when the dialog is closed?
  1139. # [21:41] <smaug____> s/callback/event dispatched/
  1140. # [21:41] <annevk> I think so
  1141. # [21:41] <annevk> anyway, I should sleep and get better
  1142. # [21:41] <hober> Hixie: I don't remember; it's in the CP
  1143. # [21:41] * Ms2ger kicks annevk out
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  1145. # [21:42] * hober digs up the link
  1146. # [21:42] <Hixie> smaug____: showModal() just adds an "open" attribute to the <dialog> and prevents anything outside the dialog from being focused or receiving events; the callback is an event fired on the <dialog> itself.
  1147. # [21:42] <Hixie> smaug____: it's not like showModalDialog()
  1148. # [21:42] <rafaelw_> smaugg___: yes. Just the current records and does nothing else.
  1149. # [21:42] <Hixie> hober: i'll go with showModal()
  1150. # [21:43] <Hixie> hober: can't work out how to make modal="" work
  1151. # [21:43] <hober> Hixie: the CP has <dialog modal> and dialog.show([anchor])
  1152. # [21:43] <hober> Hixie: how is it any harder than showModal()?
  1153. # [21:43] <Hixie> what happens if the attribute is removed?
  1154. # [21:44] <hober> yeah, fair enough
  1155. # [21:44] <hober> i'm surprised we didn't catch that at the time
  1156. # [21:45] <hober> with showModal(), how do you style modals differently from non-modals?
  1157. # [21:45] <hober> :modal?
  1158. # [21:49] <Hixie> you don't
  1159. # [21:50] <Hixie> (what's the use case?)
  1160. # [21:52] <hober> non-modals often look quite different than modals, but authors can target different dialogs in a variety of ways, so it's no big deal
  1161. # [21:53] <Hixie> oh if it's just a matter of looks, then yeah, the class attribute
  1162. # [21:53] <hober> fine by me
  1163. # [21:58] <linclark> Hixie: do you have a minute for a question about itemref? I'm planning out microdata support for Drupal 8
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  1165. # [21:59] <Hixie> sure
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  1167. # [21:59] <linclark> great, thanks
  1168. # [22:00] <linclark> I'm testing an example page with validator nu
  1169. # [22:00] <linclark> http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Flin-clark.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fmicrodata.php
  1170. # [22:00] <linclark> basically, I'm using itemref for every field, even ones that are nested inside the itemscope
  1171. # [22:00] <linclark> Validator NU gives me an error, but it works in Phillips parser and in mine
  1172. # [22:01] <linclark> I didn't see anywhere in the spec where it said that itemref-ed elements couldn't be children of the referencing item
  1173. # [22:02] <linclark> but I may have missed it
  1174. # [22:02] <linclark> or it may be right here: "Properties that are not descendants of the element with the itemscope attribute can be associated with the item using the itemref attribute. "
  1175. # [22:03] <Hixie> that sentence isn't normative
  1176. # [22:03] <Hixie> but let me look for the normative version
  1177. # [22:04] <hober> annevk Hixie: you might find http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-194-6 more to your liking
  1178. # [22:04] <Hixie> hober: that certainly works for me :-)
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  1180. # [22:06] <Hixie> linclark: yeah, it's an error because of the step that says "7. If current is already in memory, there is a microdata error" in the definition of "the properties of an item"
  1181. # [22:06] <Hixie> linclark: the error is ignored, so it'll work, but it's non-conforming, because it usually means there was an authoring mistake
  1182. # [22:06] <Ms2ger> hober, "experiemental"
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  1184. # [22:07] <linclark> Hixie: ahh, thanks... do you think it would be poor form for Drupal to handle properties that way?
  1185. # [22:07] <Hixie> linclark: it would be poor form for drupal to do something non-conforming, yes :-)
  1186. # [22:07] <linclark> Hixie: the problem is that the item doesn't know which of its properties will be displayed inside it
  1187. # [22:07] <Hixie> linclark: it's easy to work around, though; just make the itemscope be on a <meta> element
  1188. # [22:08] <Hixie> linclark: instead of a <div>
  1189. # [22:08] <linclark> Hixie: ok, cool, thanks!
  1190. # [22:08] <Hixie> linclark: np
  1191. # [22:08] <Hixie> linclark: when designing this we assumed most people would want to mark up subtrees as being a particular item with a bunch of properties, as opposed to having properties all over the place
  1192. # [22:09] <Hixie> linclark: which is why this is less than aethetically ideal
  1193. # [22:09] <Hixie> linclark: for your case
  1194. # [22:09] <linclark> Hixie: that's the assumption that Drupal 7 core makes too, but Drupal 8 is blowing that to pieces
  1195. # [22:09] <Hixie> k
  1196. # [22:09] <hober> Ms2ger: thanks. i really need to get around to fixing flyspell-mode on this laptop...
  1197. # [22:09] <Ms2ger> Np
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  1199. # [22:10] <Hixie> gotta go, bbiab
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  1226. # [22:50] <eseidel> ah, Hixie is around :)
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  1235. # [23:10] <jarek> is there anything like innerHTML for SVG?
  1236. # [23:13] <jarek> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2012Apr/0051.html
  1237. # [23:13] <jarek> says it's should be on Element.prototype, but I can't get it to work on any browser
  1238. # [23:13] <jarek> was that introduced just recently?
  1239. # [23:14] <gsnedders> jarek: Been in the spec for a while, not implemented
  1240. # [23:15] <jarek> should't it be called innerSVG?
  1241. # [23:17] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GZYMMDCCCXIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  1242. # [23:19] * Quits: isherman (isherman@nat/google/x-tgidwjseevqbtmju) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1243. # [23:20] <roc> no
  1244. # [23:20] <roc> then we'd need innerXML, innerMathML, etc
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  1247. # [23:22] <jarek> it would make more sense to deprecate innerHTML and introduce innerContent
  1248. # [23:22] <roc> not worth it
  1249. # [23:24] * Joins: isherman (isherman@nat/google/x-xayjuyhjhbibljgc)
  1250. # [23:26] <espadrine> Hey everyone, the coremob w3c group has released an Acid3-like test bundle for mobile phones at http://www.rng.io/
  1251. # [23:26] <espadrine> Explanation is at https://developers.facebook.com/html5/blog/post/2012/04/04/the-methodology-behind-ringmark/
  1252. # [23:26] <espadrine> Ring 1 intends to test for support of DRM, which is a little controversial (euphemism) but the effort is good
  1253. # [23:26] * Quits: gwicke (~gabriel@212.255.28.33) (Quit: Bye!)
  1254. # [23:27] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
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  1256. # [23:32] <Hixie> eseidel: wassup?
  1257. # [23:32] <Hixie> jarek: what do you mean by "deprecarte"?
  1258. # [23:32] <Hixie> "deprecate", even
  1259. # [23:32] <tantek> espadrine - so that's the not-so-hidden agenda, an attempt to get DRM interop by way of an acid-test like approach.
  1260. # [23:32] <jgraham> espadrine: Well there is no spec for DRM at the moment so I don't see how that will happen
  1261. # [23:32] <tantek> 1 DRM Ring to control them all
  1262. # [23:32] <tantek> :P
  1263. # [23:33] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1264. # [23:33] <jgraham> tantek: "DRM ... interop" I'm not sure I follow
  1265. # [23:33] <tantek> jgraham - LOL
  1266. # [23:34] <espadrine> tantek: if it's any consolation, the spec they are working on states: "codecs are evil. Thoughts?"
  1267. # [23:34] <jarek> Hixie: I mean leave innerHTML in the spec for backward compatibility, but introduce new property that would have name that actually makes sense
  1268. # [23:34] <jgraham> espadrine: I think that is more Robin than Facebook
  1269. # [23:35] <Hixie> jarek: so basically just add another attribute that does the same thing?
  1270. # [23:35] <Hixie> jarek: that would just add bloat
  1271. # [23:35] <jarek> Hixie: I have even better idea - make SVG part of HTML, then innerHTML would make perfect sense
  1272. # [23:35] <Hixie> jarek: SVG is part of HTML. :-)
  1273. # [23:36] <Hixie> (for some definition of "part of")
  1274. # [23:36] <Hixie> anyway
  1275. # [23:36] <Hixie> see /topic
  1276. # [23:36] <jarek> Hixie: but it's still XML, you can't write it using HTML grammar
  1277. # [23:36] <jgraham> It is disappointing that the blog post talks about "features offered by iOS and Android", since those aren't browsers
  1278. # [23:36] <Hixie> yes you can
  1279. # [23:37] <jarek> Hixie: you mean when SVG is embeded directly in HTML, I do not have to close SVG tags?
  1280. # [23:37] <Hixie> jarek: you have to follow the syntax rules described in the HTML specification
  1281. # [23:38] <espadrine> jgraham: true, I assume they meant safari for iOS and Android's default browser
  1282. # [23:38] <Hixie> jarek: see http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1450
  1283. # [23:38] * Joins: danielfilho (~daniel@187.31.77.7)
  1284. # [23:38] <eseidel> Hixie: would like to talka bout <iframe seamless>
  1285. # [23:38] <Hixie> eseidel: shoot
  1286. # [23:39] <eseidel> Hixie: you intend <iframe seamless> to remain a replaced element, yet "act like" a block, correct?
  1287. # [23:39] <Hixie> eseidel: not sure what you mean by "act like a block"
  1288. # [23:40] <eseidel> Hixie: it's supposed to fill its parent width
  1289. # [23:40] <Hixie> eseidel: it's supposed to do what it says here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attr-iframe-seamless
  1290. # [23:40] <jgraham> espadrine: Probably. Not a very healthy attitude that the only browser that matters is the one that ships with the device. Too much like designing only for IE.
  1291. # [23:40] <eseidel> yup, i'm aware :)
  1292. # [23:40] <Hixie> eseidel: which, as far as width goes, means "In visual media, in a CSS-supporting user agent: the user agent should set the intrinsic width of the iframe to the width that the element would have if it was a non-replaced block-level element with 'width: auto'."
  1293. # [23:41] <jarek> is there any hope that the baseVal/animVal stuff will be dropped from SVG2 spec?
  1294. # [23:41] <eseidel> Hixie: this is thus unaffected by the display type
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  1296. # [23:41] <eseidel> so iframe.style.display should remain "inline"
  1297. # [23:41] <jarek> it breaks pretty much all HTML DOM frameworks like jQuery
  1298. # [23:42] <eseidel> Hixie: and I assume, that it should shrink-wrap, as a block would, when floated
  1299. # [23:42] <Hixie> eseidel: iframe.style.display returns the value specified in the style="" attribute, so typically it will remain the empty string
  1300. # [23:42] <eseidel> Hixie: sory, window.getComputedStyle(iframe).display then :)
  1301. # [23:42] <jgraham> jarek: Did you send feedback to the wg?
  1302. # [23:43] <Hixie> eseidel: if you float it, then "the width that the element would have if it was a non-replaced block-level element with 'width: auto'" would be zero, presumably
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  1304. # [23:44] <Hixie> eseidel: though i think that could probably be better defined
  1305. # [23:44] <eseidel> Hixie: when you float a block, it shrink wraps around its kids, is my understanding
  1306. # [23:44] <eseidel> that's the behavior I've currently implemented
  1307. # [23:44] <Hixie> eseidel: the iframe has no kids
  1308. # [23:44] <Hixie> eseidel: if it's not replaced
  1309. # [23:44] <ojan> Hixie: that's gross
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  1311. # [23:45] <ojan> Hixie: it should shrink-wrap!
  1312. # [23:45] <Hixie> ojan: i'm not talking about what a good design should be, i'm just answering questions about what the spec says today
  1313. # [23:45] <eseidel> Hixie: that's fine, those are the qeustions I'm answering :)
  1314. # [23:45] <ojan> Hixie: oh sure...i was telling eseidel that the spec should change
  1315. # [23:45] <eseidel> askgin, rather
  1316. # [23:45] <Hixie> ojan: i'm happy to talk about changing what the spec says, but that's a different conversation :-)
  1317. # [23:45] <ojan> Hixie: fair enough
  1318. # [23:45] <eseidel> Hixie: so your interpretation of the currnet spec, is that when floated the width shoudl be 0
  1319. # [23:46] <Hixie> ojan: (i think you're probably right that it should change)
  1320. # [23:46] <Hixie> eseidel: well, the current spec actually says something which as ojan says is pretty dumb, which is that its contents, namely the fallback markup between the <iframe></iframe> tags, would be shrink-wrapped
  1321. # [23:46] <eseidel> is ee.
  1322. # [23:46] <Hixie> eseidel: typically that's empty so it would be zero width
  1323. # [23:47] <eseidel> ojan was suggeting earlier an interpretation would be to just force iframe to be display: block in this mode
  1324. # [23:47] <ojan> Hixie: i think the computedStyle of display on <iframe seamless> should be block and that we should pretend that the iframe's contentDocument's children are it's children
  1325. # [23:48] <Hixie> eseidel: 'float' forces display:block anyway
  1326. # [23:48] <eseidel> ojan: obviously you don't mean firstChild spanning docs :)
  1327. # [23:48] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-112.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  1328. # [23:48] <eseidel> Hixie: correct
  1329. # [23:48] <ojan> Hixie: and that you should be able to do <iframe seamless style="display:inline-block"> to get a shrink-wrapped seamless iframe
  1330. # [23:48] <ojan> Hixie: and in that case the computedstyle would obviously be display:inline-block
  1331. # [23:49] <Hixie> ojan: well it needs to be a replaced element
  1332. # [23:49] <Hixie> ojan: whether it's block or inline doesn't much matter, i don't see why we wouldn't just leave it be what the author set it to
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  1334. # [23:49] <ojan> Hixie: i'm not really sure what the implications of being replaced are
  1335. # [23:49] * eseidel neither
  1336. # [23:49] <ojan> Hixie: it seems more consistent with e.g. coerciing display of a floated element to block
  1337. # [23:49] <Hixie> see http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html
  1338. # [23:50] <Hixie> e.g. 'width' doesn't apply to non-replaced inline elements
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  1340. # [23:50] <Hixie> 'padding' doesn't apply to replaced block elements
  1341. # [23:51] <Hixie> basically anything that's like an image or form control is replaced
  1342. # [23:51] <Hixie> anyway
  1343. # [23:51] <Hixie> i agree that shrink-wrapping the contents makes sense if the element is unconstrained
  1344. # [23:51] <Hixie> spec needs to change to say that
  1345. # [23:51] <Hixie> can you file a bug or send mail to whatwg?
  1346. # [23:52] <ojan> sure
  1347. # [23:52] <Hixie> awesome, thanks
  1348. # [23:52] <Hixie> (looks like i just didn't think of the case of a seamless iframe not being in flow)
  1349. # [23:54] <Hixie> specifically i think the spec needs to say that for in-flow, block-level seamless iframes, the width is the width of the containing block minus the inline-progression-direction margins and borders
  1350. # [23:55] <Hixie> and that for other cases, the width is the intrinsic width of the root element's box in the document in the iframe
  1351. # [23:55] <Hixie> or some such
  1352. # [23:55] <eseidel> Hixie: further clarification would certainly be helpful :)
  1353. # [23:56] <ojan> Hixie: by deafult, iframe's are display:inline, right? so...by that definition, to get display:block style rendering you'd need to set seamless and display:block, no?
  1354. # [23:57] <ojan> Hixie: is intrinsic width == shrink-wrapped width?
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  1356. # [23:57] <eseidel> ojan: it's unclear what display: block would change, other than the max-width interaction
  1357. # [23:57] <ojan> eseidel: inlines don't fill their containers width
  1358. # [23:57] <eseidel> ojan: except seamless iframes, hack their way into doing so
  1359. # [23:57] <eseidel> ojan: unless constrained by max-width
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  1361. # [23:58] <Hixie> ojan: yeah, you'd need to set display:block if you wanted the iframe to act like a block
  1362. # [23:58] <ojan> eseidel: i'm just commenting on Hixies use of "block-level" above...by default iframe's aren't block-level
  1363. # [23:58] <Hixie> ojan: otherwise it'll just sit on the line (like an inline-block, more or less)
  1364. # [23:58] <ojan> Hixie: hm...not sure how i feel about that...i guess that's ok
  1365. # [23:58] <eseidel> ojan: I need to write a test for what happens when <iframe seamless style="max-width: "> is on a line, that it doesn't force the other content on that line to the next line
  1366. # [23:59] <Hixie> ojan: "intrinsic width" is an input into the css model. "shrink-wrapped width" is a nebulous concept I'd have to define better.
  1367. # [23:59] <ojan> Hixie: but it seems by far the common case will that be people will want display:block
  1368. # [23:59] <Hixie> ojan: that's usually the case with iframes in general
  1369. # [23:59] <ojan> Hixie: would you be opposed to adding iframe[seamless] { display: block } to the UA stylesheet?
  1370. # Session Close: Thu Apr 05 00:00:00 2012

The end :)