/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-04-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 05 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <ojan> Hixie: btw, i'll put all this in an email to whatwg@ when we're done.
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> ojan: not overly opposed, but it's yet more magic, which is often a bad sign
  5. # [00:01] <ojan> Hixie: ok...i'll send an email...we'll see what others think
  6. # [00:01] <ojan> Hixie: i dont' feel strongly about this...i'm on the fence...but it seems like it is what developers will want 90% of the time
  7. # [00:02] * ojan goes to compose this email
  8. # [00:02] <ojan> sigh...i was going to write code today :(
  9. # [00:02] <Hixie> ojan: well like i said, i think it's what they want 98% of the time with <iframe> regardless of seamless
  10. # [00:02] <ojan> Hixie: sure...but they can't have it with non-seamless iframes :)
  11. # [00:03] <ojan> Hixie: oh...i guess they could if not for back-compat issues
  12. # [00:03] <Hixie> they can just set iframe { display: block; width: 100%; border: 0; }
  13. # [00:03] <Hixie> in their CSS
  14. # [00:03] <ojan> yeah
  15. # [00:03] <Hixie> just like with seamless ones :-)
  16. # [00:03] <Hixie> we don't turn off teh default border on iframe[seamless] either, do we?
  17. # [00:03] <ojan> Hixie: we should!
  18. # [00:04] <Hixie> and i guarantee they don't want that
  19. # [00:04] <ojan> Hixie: in a sense it's more magic...in another sense...when you're explaining how seamless works to someone...you can say that it roughly makes an iframe act like a div
  20. # [00:05] <Hixie> i'm not especialy opposed
  21. # [00:05] <ojan> Hixie: also if only width:100% did the right thing!
  22. # [00:05] <Hixie> i think the argument is more compelling if we also turn off the border
  23. # [00:05] <ojan> Hixie: as in...in the presense of padding
  24. # [00:05] <ojan> Hixie: i agree
  25. # [00:05] <ojan> Hixie: and i think we should
  26. # [00:05] <Hixie> oh actually we do
  27. # [00:05] <Hixie> iframe:not([seamless]) { border: 2px inset; }
  28. # [00:06] <eseidel> ha
  29. # [00:06] <eseidel> webkit doesn't have tha tyet
  30. # [00:06] <eseidel> but I'l add it
  31. # [00:06] <eseidel> I had to turn it off manually in my tests
  32. # [00:07] <Hixie> that's pretty buried in the spec, not surprised you missed it
  33. # [00:08] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@93-103-90-17.dynamic.t-2.net) (Quit: sedovsek)
  34. # [00:08] <abarth> eseidel: we have -webkit-not
  35. # [00:08] <abarth> I think ojan implemented it
  36. # [00:09] <Hixie> why -webkit-?
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  38. # [00:09] <Hixie> :not() is ancient
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  40. # [00:09] <ojan> abarth: no...i had a patch up for extending it, but we've had :not for ages
  41. # [00:09] <ojan> abarth: my patch bit-rotted and never landed though
  42. # [00:09] <abarth> ah, ok
  43. # [00:09] <ojan> abarth: the latest selectors spec has it take a comma separated list instead of a single selector
  44. # [00:10] <ojan> abarth: but there's a bunch of tests out there that enforce that it take a single selector
  45. # [00:10] <abarth> maybe I misunderstood what eseidel meant
  46. # [00:10] <ojan> abarth: and i wasn't able to get the test authors to change their tests (or respond to my emails at all)
  47. # [00:10] <ojan> abarth: the whole thing is pretty lame
  48. # [00:10] <ojan> abarth: yeah...not sure what eseidel is saying
  49. # [00:10] <ojan> that should work
  50. # [00:11] <ojan> oh, i think he's just saying that we havne't added that to the UA stylesheet yet
  51. # [00:11] <ojan> eseidel: we need to be careful how we add that bit since :not and [seamless] are both super expensive
  52. # [00:12] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@65.93.94.10) (Client Quit)
  53. # [00:12] <eseidel> abarth, ojan, I was noting that our html.css rule is simpler
  54. # [00:13] <eseidel> no :not([seamless])
  55. # [00:13] <eseidel> ojan: how super-expensive?
  56. # [00:13] * Quits: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@mau49-1-82-245-46-173.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: tzing)
  57. # [00:13] <eseidel> ojan: you think that adding that qualifier will show up in the plg?
  58. # [00:13] <eseidel> plt
  59. # [00:14] <ojan> eseidel: might. not sure
  60. # [00:14] <ojan> eseidel: antti would have a better sense of the perf implications.
  61. # [00:14] <eseidel> ojan: I'm just going to be naive :)
  62. # [00:15] <ojan> eseidel: but there are def cases where we don't use CSS for attribute/not selectors and instead use C++ code to make the style be correct because of the perf issues
  63. # [00:15] <ojan> eseidel: anyways...we should probably stop spamming whatwg with webkit implementation details :)
  64. # [00:15] <eseidel> ojan: k
  65. # [00:15] <eseidel> ojan: I appreciate the warning
  66. # [00:15] <eseidel> ojan: oh, sorry, thought we wer ein #webkit
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  68. # [00:16] <Hixie> you're welcome to spam the channel with implementation details
  69. # [00:16] <Hixie> it prevents us from climbing the ivory tower
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  76. # [00:32] <roc> I would expect ":not([seamless])" to be ultra-expensive and "iframe:not([seamless])" to be very inexpensive
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  80. # [00:37] <Hixie> i don't suppose anyone wants to spec me an 'anchor-point' CSS property and its corresponding logic
  81. # [00:38] <Hixie> for someone who left the css working group i sure seem to end up inventing a lot of css stuff
  82. # [00:40] <tantek> inventing or depending on? ;)
  83. # [00:40] <Hixie> inventing and speccing
  84. # [00:41] <Hixie> TabAtkins: do i have to do anything special with respect to transitions, style canonicalisation and serialisation, CSSOM, etc, if I create a new property? Or is the CSS2.1 style of property definition still the state of the art?
  85. # [00:41] <tantek> the latest state of the art for that is in the CSS spec template
  86. # [00:42] <roc> what does anchor-point do?
  87. # [00:42] <tantek> for animation just say animatable:no until someone comes up with a use-case :)
  88. # [00:42] <hober> i assume anchor-point is for positioning non-modal dialogs
  89. # [00:43] <tantek> the point which things can be position:center'd relative to presumably
  90. # [00:43] <Hixie> roc: defines which point in one box should be aligned with which point in another box when you show a non-modal dialog aligned with another element
  91. # [00:43] <tantek> Hixie, here is said CSS spec template: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-module/Overview.src.html
  92. # [00:43] <Hixie> roc: (consider the "tooltip"-like popup windows with arrows that point to new features in web apps these days)
  93. # [00:43] <Hixie> tantek: thanks
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  95. # [00:44] <roc> how are you going to reference another box? how are you going to deal with cyclic dependencies?
  96. # [00:44] <tantek> also - that template is not frozen - please feel free to make suggested improvements etc.
  97. # [00:44] <Hixie> tantek: is there any documentation about what the various liens mean?
  98. # [00:45] <Hixie> roc: the first box is the <Dialog> element, that's the one being positioned, and the box to which you are anchoring is the argument to the show() method
  99. # [00:45] <Hixie> tantek: lines, even
  100. # [00:45] <Hixie> tantek: specifically "Animatable" and "Canonical order"
  101. # [00:46] <roc> oh, so the target box/element isn't specified in the CSS rule, but is implicit DOM state?
  102. # [00:46] <tantek> Hixie, let's see, this helps for computable: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/computed-values
  103. # [00:46] <Hixie> roc: yeah. might be explicit DOM state, haven't figured that out yet.
  104. # [00:47] <tantek> Hixie, I couldn't find docs for those lines either, hence omitted them from CSS3-UI LCWD2 until someone steps up to define them. This action was not appreciated by the wg (or at least some members thereof)
  105. # [00:47] <tantek> This has some additional guidance: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/format-update
  106. # [00:47] <Hixie> tantek: heh
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  108. # [00:48] <Hixie> tantek: so how do i specify how a transition between two values works?
  109. # [00:48] <tantek> since then I've decided I can just put "animatable: no" until someone complains and then I can make them document real world use-cases
  110. # [00:48] <tantek> great question
  111. # [00:49] <Hixie> i'm assuming "great question" is the usual euphemism for "you have stepped into a political landmine, please wait while i step out of the way" :-P
  112. # [00:49] <tantek> "great question" means AFAIK no well defined answer
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  114. # [00:50] <Hixie> ok i found documentation for the "animatable" line: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-transitions/#animatable-properties
  115. # [00:50] <tantek> political landmines are much "easier" to deal with as all you have to do is trigger them and then analyze the results
  116. # [00:50] <tantek> I believe tabatkins has had to address that question in flexbox so he may be able to help
  117. # [00:55] <zewt> are there any political unit tests
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  119. # [00:58] <tantek> zewt, it's not clear it is possible to construct political unit tests as such test cases typically involve a lot of context (thus not "unit"), and political user agents also typically exhibit an observer effect, making tests not necessarily repeatable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_%28physics%29#Social_sciences
  120. # [00:59] <zewt> you need fixtures that reproduce the responses of other entities in the system
  121. # [01:00] <tantek> or the ability to reset a political user agent to a previous state or a known initial state
  122. # [01:00] <zewt> transactional users
  123. # [01:02] <zewt> like when you mention something as a "here's an idea but it's a really bad one" aside, then people LATCH ONTO IT and you just wish you could rollback to before you even mentioned it
  124. # [01:05] <tantek> unless your intention was to honeypot such folks into being distracted by it
  125. # [01:13] <Hixie> i can't work out what is expected for the "canonical order" line
  126. # [01:13] <Hixie> it seems to me what is needed isn't a canonical order but a canonical serialisation
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  128. # [01:16] <tantek> like every property should specify its canonical DOM serialization?
  129. # [01:19] <Hixie> well for most properties it follows straight from the grammar
  130. # [01:19] <Hixie> but occasionally there are complications, yeah
  131. # [01:19] <Hixie> i'm assuming that's what this line is about
  132. # [01:22] <Hixie> bbl
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  137. # [01:30] <heycam> annevk, I would use a sequence if you just want a JS Array object to be passed to the callback, and an array type if you want the callback to be able to modify the array and the DOM object to be able to notice that
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  145. # [02:01] <zewt> heycam: sequence vs. array must be in the top three of idl things people get confused about, heh
  146. # [02:01] <heycam> zewt, definitely
  147. # [02:01] <heycam> might have been better to use a word other than "array" for array types
  148. # [02:01] <zewt> is it basically the difference between returning a vector<int> vs. an int*?
  149. # [02:02] <heycam> pretty much, except that with the int* case the DOM object can also notice when you set values, change the array length, etc.
  150. # [02:02] <heycam> it's much more like an object with indexed properties and a length property
  151. # [02:02] <zewt> does it "notice", or does it have to compare after the fact?
  152. # [02:03] <heycam> well I would say that it can notice
  153. # [02:03] <zewt> eg. does it effectively override the setter, so it can detect changes immediately, or is it more like keeping a copy of the original data and comparing afterwards
  154. # [02:04] <heycam> yeah the former
  155. # [02:04] <zewt> (the former being quicker for large sets of data, but presumably with more overhead to JS)
  156. # [02:04] <heycam> because if you have an IDL attribute of type whatever[], then you can manipulate it and the DOM object can respond immediately
  157. # [02:04] <zewt> (well, more memory efficient, I should say)
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  172. # [02:41] <zewt> bikeshedding contest: a word for "parameters" that isn't a plural (and is preferably less verbose than "configuration")
  173. # [02:41] <zewt> (bugs me that webgl says "has *context creation parameters*"; defined abstractions like that are usually singular, which seems more concrete)
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  175. # [02:41] <zewt> "setup" doesn't really sound right
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  178. # [02:43] <tantek> zewt, argv :P
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  192. # [03:02] <zewt> wow. someone trying to use "doesn't spec java bindings" as an argument? that's a pretty big alarm bell that someone's reaching for arguments. heh
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  200. # [03:26] <Hixie> heycam|away: re http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0192.html :
  201. # [03:26] <Hixie> heycam|away: addHitRegion() only makes sense in an immediate-mode bitmap world, you don't need it or anything like it in the retained-mode svg vector world
  202. # [03:27] <Hixie> heycam|away: as far as matrix objects go i'm happy to use whatever
  203. # [03:27] <Hixie> heycam|away: (i used SVGMatrix because that's what mozilla people suggested)
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  271. # [08:14] <smaug____> rafaelw_: ping
  272. # [08:14] <smaug____> (probably a bit late for you )
  273. # [08:18] <zcorpan> margins won't collapse at the top or bottom of seamless iframes
  274. # [08:18] <zcorpan> but maybe that's not a problem
  275. # [08:18] <smaug____> (all the special casing for seamless feels horrible, but I don't complain, yet :) )
  276. # [08:19] <smaug____> aklein: ping
  277. # [08:20] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  278. # [08:20] <zcorpan> i agree with display:block default style (since inline gives the annoying line height spacing thing everyone hates) and margin:0
  279. # [08:25] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I suppose org.whattf.syntax.Driver could be extended with full validator functionality. Now it's jus a minimal Jing harness
  280. # [08:27] <smaug____> does DOM4 say anything about garbage collection or similar?
  281. # [08:28] * smaug____ can't find anything
  282. # [08:34] <zcorpan> smaug____: what do you expect it to say?
  283. # [08:38] <zcorpan> i wonder who to cc from webkit and microsoft about changes to shared workers
  284. # [08:40] <smaug____> zcorpan: it should say something about ownership of MutationObserver
  285. # [08:41] <smaug____> I filed a bug
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  291. # [08:57] <zcorpan> hmm. <annotation-xml> complicates innerHTML if we want to support foreign content with innerHTML
  292. # [08:57] <zcorpan> well, you need to check an attribute on the context element
  293. # [08:57] <zcorpan> i guess that's simple enough
  294. # [08:59] <zcorpan> also, the escape foreign lands thing doesn't make much sense in the fragment case, but i don't know what to do about that
  295. # [08:59] <smaug____> innerHTML reminds me... hsivonen, how hard would it support innerHTML in svg elements?
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  297. # [09:00] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  298. # [09:00] <zcorpan> at least it needs to have a check not to pop the root element in the fragment case
  299. # [09:00] <zcorpan> smaug____: that's what i'm investigating :-)
  300. # [09:00] <smaug____> hsivonen: I mean in gecko
  301. # [09:00] <zcorpan> oh
  302. # [09:00] <smaug____> ah, there can be some spec issues too :)
  303. # [09:00] <zcorpan> well the spec is totally broken for innerHTML on non-html elements currently
  304. # [09:01] <zcorpan> the insertion mode is "in body"
  305. # [09:01] <zcorpan> so you get HTML elements
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  307. # [09:01] <zcorpan> but the fix is more complicated than just changing the insertion mode to foreign content...
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  310. # [09:02] <zcorpan> see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16635
  311. # [09:06] <hsivonen> smaug____: not at all hard
  312. # [09:06] <hsivonen> smaug____: the code is pretty much there. we're just annoying by putting the IDL on HTML elements instead of all elements
  313. # [09:06] * wookiehangover_ is now known as wookiehangover
  314. # [09:07] <hsivonen> IIRC, I've fixed the parser code ahead of spec
  315. # [09:07] * hsivonen checks
  316. # [09:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: what changes are needed to make innerHTML do the right thing on svg and mathml elements, including elements that are MathML text integration points and HTML integration points?
  317. # [09:11] <hsivonen> smaug____: oops. there seems to be a bug in the case where the namespace is not HTML but the local name matches "script", "plaintext", "xmp", "textarea", "title", "style", et.
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  321. # [09:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: "reset the insertion mode" needs to be able to handle non-HTML at the start of the algorithm...
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  324. # [09:14] <zcorpan> hsivonen: right, but i think more changes are needed
  325. # [09:14] <zcorpan> hsivonen: consider setting innerHTML to "<b>x"
  326. # [09:14] <zcorpan> hsivonen: that will pop the root element per spec
  327. # [09:14] <zcorpan> oops
  328. # [09:15] <hsivonen> zcorpan: looking at this stuff more carefully, it might be that the code I have here is very buggy...
  329. # [09:15] <hsivonen> anyway, it shouldn't be too hard
  330. # [09:16] <hsivonen> we should definitely add innerHTML for SVG and MathML elements
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  332. # [09:19] <zcorpan> commented on the bug
  333. # [09:19] <zcorpan> i agree we should
  334. # [09:19] * Quits: schnoomac (~schnoomac@melbourne.99cluster.com) (Quit: schnoomac)
  335. # [09:20] <zcorpan> i started to write down proposed spec changes, but then i stopped when it came to <annotation-xml>, <annotation-xml encoding=text/html>, <mglyph>, etc
  336. # [09:20] <zcorpan> because i wasn't confident that i'd get it right
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  340. # [09:26] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, ping?
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  343. # [09:29] <annevk> better get ourselves some Java bindings!
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  345. # [09:35] <annevk> <input type=range> is called a Range Element by Microsoft
  346. # [09:35] <annevk> that's so confusing
  347. # [09:36] <Ms2ger> Well, we have Java bindings
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  349. # [09:37] <zcorpan> http://www.amazon.com/Range-Kleen-Replacement-Plug-Element/dp/B000FNJ5RG%3FSubscriptionId%3DAKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q%26tag%3Dduckduckgo-z-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165953%26creativeASIN%3DB000FNJ5RG
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  357. # [10:12] <annevk> Ms2ger: I know, not sure whether to reply or not
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  365. # [10:44] <annevk> smaug____: so it's very easy to spec takeRecords() as return copy of X and then empty X
  366. # [10:44] <smaug____> yup
  367. # [10:44] <annevk> smaug____: the alternative is something like remove all Y from X and then return Y in the same order but that does not account for the empty list
  368. # [10:45] <annevk> are you happy if the spec just says copy?
  369. # [10:45] <annevk> you can implement whatever of course
  370. # [10:45] <smaug____> yeah
  371. # [10:45] <annevk> k
  372. # [10:46] <smaug____> just make it clear that if there are no records, empty array is returned
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  376. # [10:52] <annevk> I'll make it clear record queue is always a list, sure
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  378. # [10:55] <annevk> slow dvcs.w3.org is slow
  379. # [10:55] <annevk> Ms2ger: not sure making the redirect of mozilla.org to en-US permanent in the draft was sensible btw
  380. # [10:55] * Joins: charlvn (~charlvn@2002:8259:81f2::1)
  381. # [10:57] <annevk> specced
  382. # [10:58] <charlvn> have any of you guys/girls tried out jsoup? it's a bit hacky but it's a powerful library
  383. # [11:00] <smaug____> w3.org is slow...
  384. # [11:01] <RobbertAtWork> smaug____: w3 is slow, yes
  385. # [11:01] <RobbertAtWork> smaug____: w3.org loads snappy for me though
  386. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: here now
  387. # [11:02] <charlvn> time curl www.w3.org gives me 0m0.543s
  388. # [11:02] * Ms2ger tries to remember
  389. # [11:02] <smaug____> I'm trying to load DOM4, so it is dvcs.w3.org
  390. # [11:03] <Ms2ger> annevk, it's a 301, apparently
  391. # [11:03] <annevk> Ms2ger: seems that even Mozilla makes mistakes
  392. # [11:03] <Ms2ger> annevk, :)
  393. # [11:03] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, it would be nice if http://dev.w3.org/html5/tests/ had a pointer to the hg repo
  394. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: you mean an index page?
  395. # [11:04] <Ms2ger> Or in the readme file, at least
  396. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> or maybe I should just have it redirect?
  397. # [11:05] <Ms2ger> wfm
  398. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> OK
  399. # [11:06] <smaug____> no, I can't get dvcs.w3.org to load
  400. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> oh
  401. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> that's a different problem
  402. # [11:06] <Ms2ger> smaug____, clone https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core :)
  403. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> wow
  404. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> I can't get it load either
  405. # [11:07] <Ms2ger> 'How do you scare off a flock of web developers? “Java! Java!”'
  406. # [11:07] <niloy> lolz
  407. # [11:08] <annevk> smaug____: updated http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/ for the occasion
  408. # [11:08] <smaug____> thanks
  409. # [11:09] <Ms2ger> annevk, hmm, when did I get a Mozilla link?
  410. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> smaug____: please try now
  411. # [11:09] <annevk> Ms2ger: also, you only updated one mozilla.org link, the one from Aryeh
  412. # [11:09] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  413. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> still responding slowly
  414. # [11:10] <Ms2ger> I didn't think I had one
  415. # [11:10] <smaug____> MikeSmith: works now
  416. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> I just restarted the web server
  417. # [11:10] <Ms2ger> annevk, want to revert me? :)
  418. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> load on that machine is still pretty high
  419. # [11:11] <annevk> Ms2ger: I'll just fix it instead and it'll go with the next commit
  420. # [11:11] <annevk> whenever that is
  421. # [11:11] <Ms2ger> Alright
  422. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> Mem: 524504k total, 518140k used, 6364k free, 1548k buffers
  423. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> Swap: 524280k total, 275388k used, 248892k free, 10408k cached
  424. # [11:12] * Quits: GPH-Zeke (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  425. # [11:12] <Ms2ger> Ddos?
  426. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> using a lot of swap space
  427. # [11:12] <smaug____> that is not much memory
  428. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: some spider probably yeah
  429. # [11:13] <smaug____> total
  430. # [11:13] <annevk> is someone making sure the CSS specs that define OM stuff are doing the right thing?
  431. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> smaug____: yeah, it's not a big machine
  432. # [11:13] <Ms2ger> Nah
  433. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> annevk: heh
  434. # [11:13] <annevk> because as much as the CSS WG likes to bitch at other groups for not informing them, they're certainly not informing us
  435. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> annevk: I think asking "is someone making sure the CSS specs do ..." with respect to each other, you get the same answer
  436. # [11:14] <annevk> sort of curious with respect to events and such
  437. # [11:14] <annevk> MikeSmith: mwaha
  438. # [11:15] <annevk> anyone know what's been happening with WebVTT?
  439. # [11:15] <annevk> I haven't had any requests with respect to my validator
  440. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> now dvcs.w3.org is unresponsive again
  441. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> tailing the apache access.log I don't see any problems
  442. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> hmm
  443. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> I do see a lot of this in the error logs:
  444. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> [Thu Apr 05 09:10:44 2012] [error] [client 49.128.35.6] Script timed out before returning headers: hgweb.wsgi, referer: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/log/tip/css3-animations/Overview.src.html
  445. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> every 2 seconds
  446. # [11:21] <Ms2ger> Same IP?
  447. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> hmm
  448. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> [Thu Apr 05 09:08:31 2012] [error] server is within MinSpareThreads of MaxClients, consider raising the MaxClients setting
  449. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> [Thu Apr 05 09:09:28 2012] [error] server reached MaxClients setting, consider raising the MaxClients setting
  450. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: no, different clients
  451. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> I think the above was the problem
  452. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> it seems to have re-stabiized
  453. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> stabilized now
  454. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> if we keep having problems I guess I can try raising the maxclients value
  455. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> load is back down to normal now
  456. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> ok, next time if anybody has problems with dvcs.w3.org please ping me so I can get on there and look
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  458. # [11:31] <zcorpan> hsivonen: your input for https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16635 would be appreciated, when you have time :-)
  459. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: I redirected to http://w3c-test.org/html/tests/ instead
  460. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> if you think we should redirect it to dvcs.w3.org, I will change it to that
  461. # [11:33] <Ms2ger> Fine with me
  462. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> OK
  463. # [11:34] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-hyperlinks/ is a spec that should get the "don't look at this" treatment, right?
  464. # [11:34] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p508299E6.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  465. # [11:35] <Ms2ger> Wow, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-cascade/ has got a nice header
  466. # [11:36] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, that treatment still hasn't made it to TR/...
  467. # [11:37] * Joins: espadrine (~thaddee_t@acces2373.res.insa-lyon.fr)
  468. # [11:37] <Ms2ger> Also, I didn't want to see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmJKhois7E8
  469. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: then you probably wouldn't like the alternate one where he's naked
  470. # [11:40] <Ms2ger> No. I would not.
  471. # [11:42] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YZKMMMCIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  472. # [11:45] <annevk> http://www.nature.com/press_releases/linkeddata.html as long as they're not releasing the articles, I'm kind of missing why this is a big deal
  473. # [11:47] <jgraham> I guess citation data can be mildly interesting. But yeah, not too big a deal. Unless you are an RDF-head I guess in which case ever time someone publishes a triple it's a big deal
  474. # [11:53] <annevk> hmm
  475. # [11:53] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/zindex.html contradicts other parts of CSS 2.1
  476. # [11:53] <annevk> where it is said that the root element and body element set the background of the canvas
  477. # [11:53] <zcorpan> hey it's almost a decade ago first version of xhtml2 was published
  478. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> " The platform uses standard vocabularies such as Dublin Core, FOAF, PRISM, BIBO and OWL" .. OWL is a vocabulary?
  479. # [11:54] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-xhtml2-20020805/
  480. # [11:54] * MikeSmith goes to read OWL spec for first time
  481. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: party time
  482. # [11:54] <annevk> champagne!
  483. # [11:55] <annevk> omg that text is terrible
  484. # [11:55] <annevk> talks about elements, forgets about pseudo-elements
  485. # [11:55] <annevk> oh no
  486. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> one thing is, I looked back at mail archives and such, and it seems like the XHTML WG really stopped working on XHTML2 in 2006 or so
  487. # [11:55] <annevk> that's scoped by some box at the top
  488. # [11:56] <annevk> so it's just a confusing mix of terminology, but I guess that makes sense given the patchwork that CSS 2.1 is
  489. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> I think instead they were pretty much just working on RDFa, along with the whole XHTML 1 modularization thing
  490. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> annevk: I wonder who actually wrote that
  491. # [11:57] <annevk> Appendix E is pretty much Hixie I think
  492. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> oh
  493. # [11:57] <annevk> it has a list, for starters, and in general defines things more clearly than most of CSS
  494. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> "Elaborate description of Stacking Contexts" sounds like a heading that Hixie would mint
  495. # [11:58] <annevk> I think that is mostly because it has to start with an E
  496. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> ah
  497. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> yeah
  498. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> I seem to remember this now
  499. # [11:59] <annevk> CSS 2.1 has a nice joke with the appendices
  500. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> or maybe another case
  501. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> yeah
  502. # [11:59] <jgraham> "Extended" would have been more utilitarian
  503. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> Evil
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  507. # [12:01] <annevk> well CSS 2.1 is cute, but if we're talking about how it should be done better than it should probably not look like this at all
  508. # [12:02] <annevk> defining a core piece of layout in an appendix is insane
  509. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> hey guys I got instagram on my Android handset so feel free to unfollow my twitter now
  510. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/#!/sideshowbarker/status/187419744058613760
  511. # [12:04] <annevk> oh yes, burgers without buns
  512. # [12:04] <annevk> I remember that place
  513. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> annevk: about CSS 2.1, it's like Star Trek original vs Star Trek the Next Generation
  514. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> you have to love both for what they are
  515. # [12:04] * Quits: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  516. # [12:05] <annevk> yeah, that's prolly why some people secretly (and not so secretly) think HTML4 is better than HTML
  517. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> yeah
  518. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> and some people shop at Walmart
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  520. # [12:10] <hsivonen> hmm. is it expected that the Windows installer of LibreOffice is unsigned?
  521. # [12:11] * MikeSmith wonders why hsivonen is installing anything on Windows
  522. # [12:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: the normal procedure on windows is to click through any security warnings
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  526. # [12:18] <hsivonen> awesome. they sign using GPG but don't use the kind of signing Windows can verify
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  529. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> it will be really interesting to see how the Encrypted Media Extensions work for WebKit progresses
  530. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> re https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2012-April/020182.html
  531. # [12:41] <Tuju> hi, is there an irc channel for xml-related discussion?
  532. # [12:42] <zcorpan> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/images/parsing-model-overview.svg should have fill="none" instead of fill="transparent" (transparent is invalid svg, apparently)
  533. # [12:42] <annevk> Tuju: dunno, but you can try here
  534. # [12:42] <annevk> Tuju: as far as browsers and XML go, this channel knows a fair bit
  535. # [12:43] <Tuju> annevk: ack. I'm wonder how i could do enumeration with xml-schema, so that instead of enumerating string choices, i would enumerate tag choices.
  536. # [12:44] <annevk> RobbertAtWork: ^^
  537. # [12:44] <Tuju> annevk: http://modweb.org/apache.scd see the customLog entry.
  538. # [12:44] <MikeSmith> Tuju: Ankh on #w3c might have a clue
  539. # [12:44] <MikeSmith> or he should at least
  540. # [12:44] <MikeSmith> since he's responsible for all the XML work at W3C
  541. # [12:45] <Tuju> MikeSmith: ack, sounds good. :)
  542. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> he's asleep now though
  543. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> or should be
  544. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> he lives in Toronto
  545. # [12:45] <Tuju> irc should run over xml and include localization metainfo....
  546. # [12:45] <RobbertAtWork> Tuju: Do you mean <xs:choice>? http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-1/#element-choice
  547. # [12:45] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, looks like that's my fault :)
  548. # [12:46] <Tuju> RobbertAtWork: hmm.....
  549. # [12:47] <RobbertAtWork> Tuju: Like this: <xs:choice><xs:element ref="p"/><xs:element ref="table"/><xs:element ref="ol"/></xs:choice>
  550. # [12:48] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
  551. # [12:49] <Tuju> RobbertAtWork: http://www.w3schools.com/Schema/el_choice.asp actually that looks very good.
  552. # [12:50] <annevk> Tuju: http://w3fools.com/
  553. # [12:50] <RobbertAtWork> annevk: come on, have you ever tried reading the XSD spec? it's… it's… special.
  554. # [12:51] <Tuju> RobbertAtWork: i agree. it should have more examples to illustrate the very condensated content. just like xhtml and html specs have.
  555. # [12:52] <annevk> RobbertAtWork: everyone sane knows XSD is best avoided :)
  556. # [12:53] <Tuju> annevk: anyway, funny site name and i guess they've a point in that statement.
  557. # [12:53] <Tuju> thou best way to fight against it would be by providing better content that would push that schools.com domain out of search engine results.
  558. # [12:54] <annevk> yeah
  559. # [12:54] * krijnhuman is now known as krijnh
  560. # [12:55] <Tuju> and i don't mind if they're wrong in something, eventually xmllint will complain anyway.
  561. # [13:02] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, hmm?
  562. # [13:03] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: "Y U RITE INVALID SVG"
  563. # [13:03] <Ms2ger> "It works"
  564. # [13:04] <Ms2ger> What did you expect me to do, read the SVG spec?
  565. # [13:04] <zcorpan> no, test in opera :-)
  566. # [13:04] <zcorpan> anyway, i guess the svg spec will be fixed to support transparent eventually
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  568. # [13:07] <Tuju> RobbertAtWork: it works and even scarier thing is that i changed it quite a bit and got syntax correct without typos and everything at first try.
  569. # [13:07] <annevk> I disagree with it being invalid SVG btw
  570. # [13:07] <annevk> SVG says it takes a CSS color, CSS colors evolved since CSS 2.0, deal with it
  571. # [13:07] <Tuju> RobbertAtWork: thanks, you saved my morning.
  572. # [13:07] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, heh, I guess I indeed didn't test in Opera
  573. # [13:09] <foolip> annevk, about http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Apr/0020.html
  574. # [13:09] <foolip> do you have a table of both alternatives in their original context?
  575. # [13:10] <shepazu> I think I agree with annevk… SVG1.1 didn't know about "transparent", but I don't see why a browser that knows SVG and CSS colors shouldn't allow it (in fact, it probably should allow it)
  576. # [13:10] <annevk> big5.json has about 7 different ways to decode the byte sequences foolip
  577. # [13:11] <annevk> foolip: or has 7 mapping tables, anyway
  578. # [13:11] <zcorpan> annevk: ah, then we should just fix opera
  579. # [13:12] <foolip> annevk, oh, that many
  580. # [13:12] <annevk> foolip: the interesting ones are "firefox", "internetexplorer" and one that ends in "-hk" I think
  581. # [13:13] <annevk> foolip: the rest is more or less the same
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  583. # [13:16] <zcorpan> make an html page with a table with iframes with the first column being decoded as big5-firefox and encoded to utf-8, etc, and maybe with <mark>s around the interesting words, for easy comparison :-)
  584. # [13:19] <foolip> annevk, I'm looking at the pages manually, the first was actually UTF-8 thrown in at random
  585. # [13:20] <annevk> foolip: ah interesting, I expect that might have happened more often
  586. # [13:20] <annevk> foolip: these pages are weird
  587. # [13:21] <foolip> annevk, should I send a reply to www-archive, or how?
  588. # [13:21] <annevk> foolip: either that or on the WHATWG list
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  591. # [13:21] <foolip> ok, I'll see how many I have time to check
  592. # [13:21] <annevk> foolip: I'll write up a summary at some point I guess on my blog or somewhere and then update the spec
  593. # [13:21] <annevk> currently working on forking Appendix E of CSS
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  598. # [13:28] <Tuju> RobbertAtWork: any idea is it possible to embed metainformation, like explanation of those tags into schema, strings that could be used when creating a xml file based on that schema?
  599. # [13:28] <Tuju> or should it be in own file?
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  601. # [13:29] <RobbertAtWork> Tuju: http://www.w3schools.com/schema/el_annotation.asp
  602. # [13:30] <Tuju> RobbertAtWork: aaaah, exactly something like that. :)
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  611. # [13:45] <annevk> how are
  612. # [13:45] <annevk> "An element in this layer is rendered in the CSS model as an atomic unit
  613. # [13:45] <annevk> that is a sibling to the root element;"
  614. # [13:46] <annevk> and
  615. # [13:46] <annevk> "The containing block for such an element is the initial containing
  616. # [13:46] <annevk> block"
  617. # [13:46] <annevk> different?
  618. # [13:47] * annevk reads more of CSS 2.1 than he wants
  619. # [13:48] <zcorpan> annevk: that happened to me as well when trying to define quirks :-)
  620. # [13:48] <annevk> nope it's different
  621. # [13:49] <annevk> I was pretty close to defining some parts of CSS in a better way at some point, but there just seemed to be too much negative inertia in the CSS group
  622. # [13:49] <annevk> so I worked on other problems instead, e.g. Encoding
  623. # [14:02] * Quits: doublec (~doublec@unaffiliated/doublec) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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  627. # [14:08] <hsivonen> I wonder how velocity changes would work under negative inertia
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  629. # [14:08] <annevk> oops :)
  630. # [14:09] <annevk> what I meant is that the focus always is on how to publish and organize things; rather than on how to solve the big problems
  631. # [14:10] <jgraham> hsivonen: Well the simple newton's law effect would be like inverting the direction of the force
  632. # [14:11] <zcorpan> annevk wants big bangs
  633. # [14:11] <jgraham> i.e. F = m (dv/dt) uner m->(-m) is equivalent to F->(-F)
  634. # [14:12] <jgraham> Needless to say this would cause complications :)
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  647. # [14:45] <annevk> hmm, so I guess I should have some algorithms for updating the fullscreen element stack
  648. # [14:46] <annevk> and have those invoke the top layer stack algo
  649. # [14:46] <annevk> not such a bad sick day
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  654. # [14:58] <annevk> matjas: eum, css3-hyperlink is obsolete
  655. # [15:01] <zcorpan> argh, how did i manage to double post?
  656. # [15:01] <zcorpan> and why did i get the indentation wrong
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  658. # [15:02] <annevk> aliens
  659. # [15:03] <Ms2ger> Predator
  660. # [15:03] <annevk> now fight
  661. # [15:04] <charlvn> don't fight, be kawaii like VA http://www.youtube.com/user/VenusAngelic
  662. # [15:06] <zcorpan> bugzilla goes to great lengths to prevent accidental double-post of a bug, but doesn't mind double-post of comments
  663. # [15:07] <AryehGregor> . . . It's got to have been like ten years since I've heard anyone say "kawaii".
  664. # [15:07] <Ms2ger> ^
  665. # [15:09] <charlvn> AryehGregor: you definitely don't hang out with japanophiles then
  666. # [15:09] <AryehGregor> charlvn, well, I used to, around the time that Pokémon was trendy.
  667. # [15:10] <charlvn> AryehGregor: eh, yes that has definitely been a while then :P
  668. # [15:11] <charlvn> actually kawaii isn't so bad, wait until they start about moe moe and maid cafes, then the conversation is turning full-out otaku
  669. # [15:13] <charlvn> on an unrelated note, i have been toying with using jsoup from python using jython and combining that with pygments
  670. # [15:14] <charlvn> the end result is extremely hacky but minimalist code (sounds a bit like perl)
  671. # [15:14] <charlvn> https://gist.github.com/2310803
  672. # [15:14] <matjas> annevk: obsoleted by …?
  673. # [15:14] <Ms2ger> HTML
  674. # [15:15] <annevk> matjas: sanity and also HTML
  675. # [15:15] <matjas> hah
  676. # [15:15] <annevk> unfortunately TR/ documents are hard to correct
  677. # [15:15] <annevk> even if they're only drafts
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  679. # [15:15] <annevk> so they will confuse people for years
  680. # [15:15] <annevk> in this case eight years now
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  687. # [15:30] <hsivonen> No new IE6 countdown champions this year yet. :-(
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  694. # [15:34] <zcorpan> hsivonen: any firefox 3.6 countdowns?
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  699. # [15:44] <annevk> Hixie: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/fullscreen/raw-file/tip/Overview.html has your top layer thing now
  700. # [15:44] <annevk> zcorpan: will look at your Fullscreen bugs in a minute
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  702. # [15:47] <zcorpan> annevk: s/remove/pop/ ?
  703. # [15:48] <zcorpan> or isn't it pop? :-)
  704. # [15:49] <annevk> not if I define empty in terms of remove
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  706. # [15:49] <annevk> well could still be
  707. # [15:49] <annevk> remove just seemed safer
  708. # [15:49] <zcorpan> k
  709. # [15:49] <annevk> but maybe I should call it add instead of push then
  710. # [15:49] <annevk> and have add perform a push operation
  711. # [15:50] <annevk> meh
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  713. # [15:54] <zcorpan> ok now a quiz i don't know the full answer to :-)
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  715. # [15:56] <annevk> App H
  716. # [15:56] <Ms2ger> ^
  717. # [15:56] <annevk> the appendices themselve
  718. # [15:56] * annevk goes back to fixing bugs
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  720. # [15:57] <Ms2ger> \o/
  721. # [15:57] <zcorpan> annevk: i know those too, but i suspect there are more
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  725. # [16:00] <annevk> zcorpan: I think orange might be an easter egg
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  727. # [16:01] <annevk> zcorpan: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16449 nitpicking much? :p
  728. # [16:01] <zcorpan> can't help it! :-)
  729. # [16:01] <zcorpan> what's with orange?
  730. # [16:02] <annevk> it was added for fun
  731. # [16:02] <annevk> or for the glory of the Dutch
  732. # [16:02] <annevk> prolly the latter
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  736. # [16:23] <charlvn> if you put the orange and the green together it looks more like the flag of ireland
  737. # [16:24] <zcorpan> annevk: pretty responsive spec work with fullscreen
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  739. # [16:25] <annevk> I like <dialog>
  740. # [16:27] <zcorpan> annevk: some Its should be It's
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  742. # [16:28] <zcorpan> "rendered as an atomic unit as it were a sibling of the root element." missing an "if"
  743. # [16:29] <annevk> yup
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  746. # [16:33] <zcorpan> annevk: aren't width/height unnecessary to set when all of top/right/bottom/left are set?
  747. # [16:33] <zcorpan> they get ignored anyway, i think
  748. # [16:33] <annevk> these are from roc's styles
  749. # [16:33] <annevk> I haven't really thought hard about that
  750. # [16:34] <annevk> I wonder more why there's no newline after the namespace declaration
  751. # [16:34] <annevk> bug in Opera
  752. # [16:34] <annevk> baaah
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  754. # [16:34] <annevk> zcorpan: are you sure that is the case even for replaced elements?
  755. # [16:35] <annevk> zcorpan: I think they might get intrinsic sizing
  756. # [16:35] <annevk> zcorpan: which is not what we want for e.g. <iframe>
  757. # [16:35] <annevk> zcorpan: you're making me read CSS 2.1 again
  758. # [16:35] <annevk> this is a sad day
  759. # [16:36] <annevk> zcorpan: see http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#abs-replaced-width for why we likely need height/width
  760. # [16:36] <zcorpan> oh. that may well be true
  761. # [16:36] <zcorpan> ok
  762. # [16:38] <zcorpan> didn't know about that
  763. # [16:38] <zcorpan> also, i was wrong about what gets ignored
  764. # [16:39] <zcorpan> in case of over-constraining for non-replaced
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  766. # [16:41] <zcorpan> annevk: to make it easier to put the fullscreen styles in the same style sheet as the rest of the ua styles, maybe you should make html the default namespace and use *|*:fullscreen
  767. # [16:43] <annevk> not unreasonable
  768. # [16:44] <annevk> done
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  779. # [17:24] <annevk> foolip: did you get anywhere? I might take another look then
  780. # [17:25] <foolip> annevk, I'm about half way through
  781. # [17:25] <annevk> wow cool
  782. # [17:25] <foolip> annevk, it would help a lot if you could help me distill big5.json to the different options that there are for each weird sequence
  783. # [17:26] <foolip> now I'm just testing with the browsers that I have, and in some cases none of them do the right thing
  784. # [17:26] <annevk> I have these two functions
  785. # [17:26] <annevk> def get_index(lead, trail):
  786. # [17:26] <annevk> row = 0xFE-0xA1 + RANGE + 1
  787. # [17:26] <annevk> cell = (trail-0xA1 + RANGE) if trail > (0x7E+1) else trail - 0x40
  788. # [17:26] <annevk> return (lead-0x81) * row + cell
  789. # [17:26] <annevk> and
  790. # [17:27] <annevk> def get_bytes(index):
  791. # [17:27] <annevk> row = 0xFE-0xA1 + RANGE + 1
  792. # [17:27] <annevk> lead = (index / row) + 0x81
  793. # [17:27] <annevk> cell = index % row
  794. # [17:27] <annevk> trail = (cell + 0xA1 - RANGE) if cell > RANGE else cell + 0x40
  795. # [17:27] <annevk> return (lead, trail)
  796. # [17:27] <annevk> by using get_index you can use the position in any of the browsers' arrays
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  798. # [17:28] <annevk> if you have some code point, by first finding it in the index and then using get_bytes on its position, you can do the reverse
  799. # [17:28] <foolip> annevk, ok, let me try that with some of the results I have
  800. # [17:29] <annevk> oh sorry
  801. # [17:29] <annevk> you also need
  802. # [17:29] <annevk> RANGE = 0x7E-0x40+1
  803. # [17:29] <annevk> (with apologies to hsivonen)
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  805. # [17:30] <foolip> http://html5.org/temp/big5.json is up to date?
  806. # [17:30] <annevk> yes, I doubt the mapping has changed the last week :)
  807. # [17:30] <foolip> :P
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  810. # [17:35] <annevk> so TR/dom we published today lacks takeRecords()?
  811. # [17:35] <annevk> haha
  812. # [17:37] <Ms2ger> Well, yes
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  815. # [17:39] <dglazkov> good morning, Wha?...wg!
  816. # [17:40] <foolip> annevk, judging from the results so far, just using the -hk tables will fix these pages
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  818. # [17:41] <annevk> wb dglazkov
  819. # [17:42] <annevk> foolip: sweet
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  852. # [19:04] <annevk> jsbell: btw, apparently ES6 will get some kind of byte representation, might want to check with them just in case they have encoding API plans too
  853. # [19:05] <annevk> jsbell: https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
  854. # [19:05] * annevk is not subscribed
  855. # [19:05] <jsbell> annevk: I follow es-discuss
  856. # [19:05] <jsbell> binary types for es6 haven't come up in ages
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  859. # [19:06] <jsbell> annevk: latest thinking *should* be summarized in the "binary data" section of http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=harmony:proposals
  860. # [19:07] <jsbell> Last active discussion I heard was that reality would be accepted and everything would be built on top of Typed Array ArrayBuffers, but again there hasn't been active discussion recently.
  861. # [19:09] <jsbell> but thanks for the heads-up. I should ping dherman
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  864. # [19:16] <foolip> annevk, I hope you're not in a hurry, I'll have to wait until next week to finish up the email
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  866. # [19:17] <Ms2ger> foolip, noooooooo ;)
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  868. # [19:22] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Yes, it absolutely should get the "dont' look at me" treatment. I don't think it's in the repo, though.
  869. # [19:25] <Ms2ger> I guess it's in the MO folder
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  876. # [19:32] <TabAtkins> Hixie: The "Canonical Order" line is just to define the serialization order. The serialization of the individual bits is defined by the datatype of the bit.
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  884. # [19:55] <annevk> foolip: k, I might dig into gbk then
  885. # [19:55] <annevk> jsbell: cool
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  889. # [20:04] <danbri> Hixie, how/where would you prefer to receive a proposal for multiple types in Microdata?
  890. # [20:04] <Hixie> abarth: Michal raises an interesting point regarding not leaking to advertisers the origin of the top-level page, since that would be a privacy leak if they can in any way (e.g. IP address, broader fingerprint) identify the user
  891. # [20:04] <Hixie> danbri: nowhere. :-) i would like to hear about concrete use cases for multiple types in the whatwg list, though.
  892. # [20:05] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Maybe sandboxes can't read up past the barrier?
  893. # [20:05] <danbri> if you get concrete use cases, is there some prayer you'll change the spec, or that ship has sailed?
  894. # [20:05] <Hixie> danbri: if there are convincing concrete use cases and implementors wishing to implement, it's never too late
  895. # [20:05] <Hixie> danbri: (the point being that syntax proposals should come after we've established that there's a problem -- so far all the discussions proposing multiple unrelated types have been theoretical use cases at best)
  896. # [20:05] <Hixie> TabAtkins: that might work
  897. # [20:06] <danbri> ok, i'll pull things together in w3c wiki and make a whatwg email of it
  898. # [20:07] <Hixie> danbri: the shorter the better, fwiw. i tend to find that the longer the description of the use case, the more vague and hand-wavy it is.
  899. # [20:07] <Hixie> danbri: the ideal use case is something like Foo Corp (a real company) is trying to do X and Y and cannot.
  900. # [20:07] <danbri> ok.
  901. # [20:07] <Hixie> danbri: as opposed to "maybe one day there will be two companies and they will support different vocabularies covering similar topics and it would be nice if we could in theory support both"
  902. # [20:08] <Hixie> danbri: or "today there are three vocabs for topic X, none of them actually implemented, but on the off-chance that one of them eventually is, and to hedge our bets, we'd like to use all three today"
  903. # [20:08] <zcorpan> "and to solve this I've developed RDF, now suck it up"
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  905. # [20:08] <Hixie> danbri: both of which are rather uncompelling use cases (if nobody is consuming the data, why bother producing it, let alone producing it in two different vocabs)
  906. # [20:08] <danbri> schema.org (a group of engineers from several big companies) are trying to avoid going insane by having everything in their schema. And so they want 3rd parties to be able to declare subclasses directly. But they can't commit to maintaining a giant mush of all the 3rd party stuff out there, so will write consumer code only for known classes. Multiple types would all partial understanding, with 3rd parties adding detai
  907. # [20:08] <danbri> l while central schema has a useful core.
  908. # [20:09] <Hixie> danbri: schema.org's multiple type use case is already supported, since they just have a single vocabulary.
  909. # [20:09] <Hixie> common to all types
  910. # [20:10] <Hixie> (albeit with some properties only valid on some types)
  911. # [20:10] <danbri> no, because we want 3rd parties to be able to extend that vocab without having to agree everything with us.
  912. # [20:10] <Hixie> they can do that too, by just using URLs for their extension points (who is consuming their extension properties anyway?)
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  914. # [20:11] <Hixie> ("extension" isn't a concrete use case, btw)
  915. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> So the use-case is "I want to publish data using a schema.org vocab so it'll get picked up by the googlebot, but I want to add additional details that aren't in the official vocab.".
  916. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> What are you doing with the additional details?
  917. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> I guess that's Hixie's "Who's consuming it?" question.
  918. # [20:12] <Hixie> yeah, as tab says, "I want to add additional details" isn't a concrete use case
  919. # [20:12] <danbri> so a single item description can have a type of e.g. http://schema.org/Person and http://historical-data.org/HistoricalPerson ?
  920. # [20:12] <Hixie> so long as both those types use the same vocabulary
  921. # [20:12] <danbri> Google are consuming it, amongst others
  922. # [20:12] <Hixie> google aren't consuming the non-schema.org extensions
  923. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> danbri: Google are consuming the schema.org properties, yes. Who's consuming the extra ones you want to add?
  924. # [20:13] <danbri> but they want the non-schema.org extensions to be there
  925. # [20:13] <danbri> ... so that if they are successful they can be consumed
  926. # [20:13] <Hixie> so just put them in the schema.org "namespace" and use a wiki to do first-come-first-served name registration
  927. # [20:13] <Hixie> same as rel=""
  928. # [20:13] <Hixie> so it's still all the same vocab
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  930. # [20:14] <Hixie> bbiab
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  964. # [20:56] <manu-db> hsivonen: We discussed your responses to ISSUE-130 and ISSUE-132 (@rel, @rev, @href and @src in HTML5+RDFa) today: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/meetings/2012-04-05#Responses_to_Henri_Sivonen
  965. # [20:56] <manu-db> I'll do a formal response in the next few days, just giving you a heads-up.
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  967. # [20:57] <annevk> Hixie: "just tied to sandbox" and then advertisers will demand not be sandboxed...
  968. # [20:58] <annevk> Hixie: that can happen already, but more so if fingerprinting features become available
  969. # [20:58] <Hixie> annevk: well, whatever solution we provide will be optional, so that argument applies to everything
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  971. # [20:59] <Hixie> annevk: what do you mean by "fingerprinting features become available"?
  972. # [21:00] <annevk> disabling sandbox, you get ancestorOrigins
  973. # [21:02] <Hixie> we could fake it, i guess
  974. # [21:02] <Hixie> make ancestorOrigins act as if it only contained the parent
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  976. # [21:02] <Hixie> so then you can't tell
  977. # [21:03] <annevk> Google can tell because of indexing
  978. # [21:03] <annevk> and others could do likewise
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  980. # [21:04] <annevk> note to self for tomorrow: maybe instead of partial Element for Fullscreen put it on HTMLElement/SVGSvgElement
  981. # [21:04] <annevk> doesn't make much sense for <rect> and such
  982. # [21:04] <Hixie> well anyway my point is that the argument applies to any solution
  983. # [21:05] <Hixie> it's not special for sandboxing
  984. # [21:07] <annevk> ah yeah, so maybe we shouldn't do it
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  986. # [21:08] <annevk> if the parent cooperates it can already be exposed of course, but this makes it a lot easier
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  994. # [21:36] <Hixie> annevk: so how do you address the security issue in the non-advertising case?
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  1030. # [23:32] <annevk> Hixie: touche
  1031. # [23:32] <annevk> touché, rather
  1032. # [23:33] <annevk> I named Fullscreen a Living Standard btw now that you guys solved the final problem and I specced it
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  1035. # [23:39] <rniwa> AryehGregor: yt?
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  1037. # [23:41] <annevk> and yay, Notifications got an update finally
  1038. # [23:41] <annevk> though it needs more work
  1039. # [23:41] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  1040. # [23:41] <annevk> maybe I should help out...
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  1046. # [23:52] <sedovsek> annevk: I see you're going to fronteers.
  1047. # [23:53] <sedovsek> Just spoted you among attendees on lanyrd, http://lanyrd.com/2012/fronteers/
  1048. # Session Close: Fri Apr 06 00:00:01 2012

The end :)