/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-04-06 / end

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1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 06 00:00:01 2012
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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8. # [00:14] <Hixie> i wonder what the default value of anchor-point should be
9. # [00:14] <Hixie> it could be 'auto'
10. # [00:14] <Hixie> but then i wonder what algorithm to use to determine the anchor point
11. # [00:14] <Hixie> it could be something really clever...
12. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Where's spec/proposal for dialogs that explains anchor-point?
13. # [00:14] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Dialogs#Proposal
14. # [00:14] <Hixie> "explains" may be a bit strong though
15. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> "Proposes in a handwavey fashion" is sufficient.
16. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> Urgh, this *really* needs the "position from an arbitrary box" proposal.
17. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> Maybe not the full one on my blog, but a simplified one.
18. # [00:16] <Hixie> ignore the point where it says "the anchor point is the center of the given element's first box", i want it to be "the anchor point is the anchor point of the given element's first box"
19. # [00:17] <Hixie> i'm fine with using something else if there's a spec i can point to or if i can spec something better than what i'm doing
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22. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> Ok, so your intention is that the dialog and the passed element just align their anchor points?
23. # [00:18] <Hixie> yeah
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25. # [00:18] <Hixie> the idea being that you'd put the dialog's image border's "<" bit at the anchor point of the dialog
26. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> Okay, hm. I don't think you actually want to specify the two anchor points separately. The positioning element should specify both of them.
27. # [00:19] <Hixie> happy to entertain proposals if you have any :-)
28. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> Simplest method is to define "position-root: auto | <element-reference>;", which changes the positioning container for the element. 'auto' is the standard behavior, based on the 'position' value.
29. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> Then just use t/r/b/l as normal.
30. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> You need some cycle detection, unfortunately.
31. # [00:24] <Hixie> how do i align a dialog so that the point 10px down its left edge is 1em down the target's right edge, with that?
32. # [00:24] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
33. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Ah, if you want to get that fancy, you want the fuller model that I present in http://www.xanthir.com/blog/b48H0
34. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> Or, you may be able to get away with "position-root: auto | [ <element-reference> <position>? ];"
35. # [00:25] <Hixie> (with my proposal, you just say "anchor-point: right at 1em from top" on the target, "anchor-point: left at 10px from top" on the dialog, and you call dialog.show(target) )
36. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> Hixie: How do you hang multiple dialogs off a single element?
37. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> That want different anchor-points on the target?
38. # [00:26] <Hixie> you don't
39. # [00:26] <Hixie> (nobody showed an example of that in the list of use cases i'm using to design this)
40. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> What's with all your "at" and "from" keywords? What do those do?
41. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> You're just specifying a point.
42. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> "right 1em top" works.
43. # [00:27] <Hixie> the syntax is <edge> at [ <length> from ] <edge-on-other-axis>
44. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> That's handled by the <position> type defined in V&U.
45. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> That seems like a silly way to define a point on a box.
46. # [00:27] <Hixie> how so?
47. # [00:28] <Hixie> (it's a point on an edge, not a point on a box)
48. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> Why are you restricting it to points on edge?
49. # [00:28] <Hixie> because all the use cases are for aligning edges
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51. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> It doesn't make things any simpler, and actually complicates things by not just using the <position> syntax.
52. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Using <position> handles edge-aligning exactly as easily, with slightly less typing, and also handles more general cases.
53. # [00:32] <Hixie> how do you do the equivalent of "right at 1em from bottom" with <position>?
54. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> "right 1em bottom"
55. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Oh, sorry.
56. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> "right bottom 1em"
57. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Misread your syntax because I'm so used to the ordering that <position> uses. ^_^
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59. # [00:34] * Hixie finally manages to follow links to the right spec and mumbles (a) something about living standards and (b) something about spec quality
60. # [00:35] <Hixie> yeah, i guess <position> would work
61. # [00:35] <Hixie> kinda ugly, but not fatally so
62. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> Um. It's *exactly* your syntax, just without the useless extra keywords.
63. # [00:36] <Hixie> the "useless extra keywords" are what makes it usable :-)
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66. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> Disagree, but whatever. ^_^ More importantly, <position> is used in several places, and having a new syntax for it, particularly one that orders the values differently, would be excessively confusing.
67. # [00:38] <Hixie> i am already convinced :-)
68. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> NO YOU MUST SUBMIT
69. # [00:38] <Hixie> man, the chain of specs to get to <position> is a poor story though
70. # [00:38] <Hixie> css3 values and units points to two different definitions, and the css3 background module's definition is just completely devoid of conformance criteria
71. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> Hm? You go V&U to B&B. I'd prefer defining it directly in V&U, but whatever.
72. # [00:39] <Hixie> V&U points to CSS2.1 first, then B&B in a second sentence.
73. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's to avoid gating our Rec on B&B's status.
74. # [00:39] <Hixie> and in fact the only normative chain is to 2.1, strictly speaking
75. # [00:40] <Hixie> so i guess i'd have to reference b&b if i wanted to do a strictly correct job here
76. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> No, you should reference V&U.
77. # [00:40] <Hixie> then i don't get the b&b definition :-)
78. # [00:40] <Hixie> since i'm hoping this won't remain my problem for long, i don't much care though
79. # [00:41] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
80. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> Um, I don't understand. In V&U it clearly says that the syntax for <position> is updated in B&B, and UAs that support B&B must interpret <position> as defined there.
81. # [00:42] <Hixie> right
82. # [00:42] <Hixie> but what if my ua doesn't support b&b?
83. # [00:42] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
84. # [00:43] <Hixie> also, it's kinda special to define something as X and then say that it must be interpreted as X'. :-)
85. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> That's how you do modules!
86. # [00:43] <Hixie> modules are dumb
87. # [00:43] <Hixie> especially on the web
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89. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> Shrug.
90. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> It's an alternate formulation of the living standard.
91. # [00:44] <Hixie> it's clearly nothing like the living standard since there's not one canonical url which is updated over time, but that's not the issue
92. # [00:44] <Hixie> modularisation is orthogonal to living vs snapshot
93. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Not quite. I challenge you to produce a snapshot document that's not modularized without being drastically out-of-date.
94. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Your choices are either "one document, living", or "modules, living or snapshot" if you want accurate specs.
95. # [00:46] <Hixie> snapshot documents are always out of date
96. # [00:46] <Hixie> that's the problem with snapshots :-)
97. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> Sure, but you require modules if you want the out-of-date-ness to be minimized.
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100. # [00:47] <Hixie> nah, you can have rarely-updated living modules just like you can have frequently-updated monolithic RECs
101. # [00:48] <Hixie> the rate of update is also orthogonal to living vs REC and module vs monolithic
102. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Frequently-updated monolithic RECs are a theoretical beast that's never been observed in reality.
103. # [00:48] <Hixie> CSS 2.1 was a frequently-updated monolithic REC from about 2000 to 2006
104. # [00:48] <Hixie> well
105. # [00:48] <Hixie> frequently-updated monolithic CR
106. # [00:49] <Hixie> not as frequent as you or i may wish these days, i'll grant you
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121. # [01:27] <Hixie> i wonder if we need an attribute a bit like "disabled" but that globally prevents a subtree from being focused or having anything within it activated, without actually making the descendants appear disabled
122. # [01:28] <Hixie> so that semi-modal dialogs (dialogs that are locally modal but not across the entire web app) can be implemented
123. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> Like "pointer-events:none"?
124. # [01:28] <Hixie> but for tabbing and everything
125. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> With more magic to prevent tabbing.
126. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> "inert"
127. # [01:28] <Hixie> and accesskey="", and ATs, and so on
128. # [01:29] <Hixie> or maybe we should just have showModal() take an element relative to whom subtree the dialog should be modal
129. # [01:29] <Hixie> to whose, rather
130. # [01:34] <Hixie> nah, i think a global attribute is probably better
131. # [01:34] <Hixie> there could be multiple subtrees to disable
132. # [01:36] <TabAtkins> So the code that shows the dialog sprinkles some @inert aroudn the DOM, and the code that closes the dialog removes them?
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135. # [01:37] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i guess, yeah
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137. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> Do we expect UAs to offer their own ways to close non-modal dialogs?
138. # [01:38] <Hixie> TabAtkins: might be useful for other scenarios too, e.g. i have an app with several mutually exclusive <section>s, but because I leave the inactive ones slightly visible in the background (when they have hidden=""), instead of making them display:none, I still need a way to make them inert
139. # [01:38] <Hixie> i don't think i'd want to use <Dialog> for those really
140. # [01:38] <Hixie> TabAtkins: no
141. # [01:39] <Hixie> TabAtkins: non-modal dialogs are basically just <div>s
142. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> Okay, then I'm okay with that.
143. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> Since the only way to close a non-modal dialog would be through an author-provided function.
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145. # [01:43] <Hixie> i wonder if there's some overlap between this inert=""ness and the inertness we need in templates
146. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> No.
147. # [01:43] <Hixie> i'm guessing not (and that templates need much more)
148. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> That "inertness" is more "no parsing implications to the surrounding content".
149. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> Plus "no network activity".
150. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> In addition to the inertness you want for this.
151. # [01:51] <Hixie> yeah
152. # [01:52] <zewt> grr
153. # [01:52] <zewt> nothing is quite as frustrating as "if we change this we'll break some tests, so let's not do it"
154. # [01:52] <TabAtkins> wtf
155. # [01:52] <TabAtkins> Where?
156. # [01:52] <zewt> tests being used as an excuse not to improve something is pretty much the exact opposite to why tests exist
157. # [01:53] <zewt> Also, if the behavior is changed, the 1.0.1 conformance suite will no longer run on future WebGL implementations, because it tests passing null for WebGLObjects and expects that no exceptions are thrown.
158. # [01:53] <zewt> not a hard "we can't do this because tests", but it shouldn't even be a consideration
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162. # [01:55] <zewt> also, surprise, webgl returning null on error causes lots of bugs in user code
163. # [01:55] <zewt> also frustrating since the entire industry learned that C-style error handling is badly error prone a couple decades ago
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251. # [10:01] <annevk> in WebKit, document.body.setAttribute() creates undefined="undefined"
252. # [10:01] <annevk> that's still not fixed?
253. # [10:04] <annevk> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=315805
254. # [10:05] <AryehGregor> annevk, that's a problem with their WebIDL bindings, right? Don't all methods do that, pretty much?
255. # [10:05] <AryehGregor> They don't throw on too few arguments being passed.
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257. # [10:07] <annevk> AryehGregor: f8dy fixed their IDL bindings, but I guess he never fixed the broken methods
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260. # [10:09] <AryehGregor> If he fixed the IDL bindings, how could that not throw? It would have to have the params declared as optional or something.
261. # [10:09] <annevk> right
262. # [10:09] <annevk> make for DOM takes almost 10 seconds?
263. # [10:09] <annevk> what is so difficult?
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267. # [10:46] <annevk> the problem with the namespace algorithms in DOM seems to be that they do not account for multiple attributes
268. # [10:46] <annevk> I guess nobody looks at them and that's why we haven't noticed until now?
269. # [10:46] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#locate-a-namespace-prefix
270. # [10:46] <annevk> you could have multiple attributes xmlns:test="x" xmlns:test2="x" etc.
271. # [10:46] <annevk> which local name you return is not defined
272. # [10:47] <annevk> then in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#locate-a-namespace you have the same problem
273. # [10:47] <annevk> actually, in that case you can have only one such attribute I think
274. # [10:48] <annevk> other question
275. # [10:49] <annevk> should http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dom-element-setattributens have all those restrictions given that setAttribute() can be used to circumvent them?
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279. # [10:59] <Von_Davidicus> Hello...
280. # [11:00] <Ms2ger> Or maybe add the restrictions to setAttribute? Or would that break facebook?
281. # [11:01] <Ms2ger> Also, <!doctype html> on http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-dom-20120405/ , I guess I'll have to believe that they mean it now
282. # [11:02] <annevk> Ms2ger: I just removed those
283. # [11:02] <Ms2ger> Oh
284. # [11:02] <annevk> Ms2ger: nobody implements them
285. # [11:02] <Ms2ger> Mm
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287. # [11:02] <annevk> Simon argued for doing the simplest thing possible
288. # [11:02] <Ms2ger> Wfm
289. # [11:04] <Von_Davidicus> I have a question about HTML5: Will it have a generic header element? We've got <h1> - <h6>, but will there be an <h>? For example, if you were writing a webpage on coding and wanted to give an example of coding a header? Or, for some reason, you wanted a seventh-level header?
290. # [11:04] <Ms2ger> There is one!
291. # [11:04] <Ms2ger> It's called h1
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293. # [11:05] <annevk> Von_Davidicus: use <section> combined with <h1>
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295. # [11:07] <annevk> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=742549 o_O
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297. # [11:09] <Von_Davidicus> I thought <h1> was the top-level header.
298. # [11:10] <annevk> that changed with the introduction of <section>
299. # [11:11] <Von_Davidicus> That seems a bit screwy with semantics, but then, I'm easily confuzzled. :)
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301. # [11:12] <annevk> HTML is not entirely logical either, so that's fine :)
302. # [11:14] <Von_Davidicus> Oh, don't I know it. HTML seems really simple--right up until you try to -explain- it.
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305. # [11:17] <Von_Davidicus> So does <section> essentially reset the header numbering? For example, I could have the headers in the main page, and then have, say, <section class="code_example"> and start the example heading over at <h1>?
306. # [11:20] <annevk> yeah more or less
307. # [11:20] <annevk> Von_Davidicus: reading http://www.whatwg.org/C#outline might help
308. # [11:24] <Von_Davidicus> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "ISO/IEC 15445:2000//DTD HyperText Markup Language//EN">
309. # [11:24] <Von_Davidicus>
310. # [11:24] <Von_Davidicus> ", will it still validate?
311. # [11:24] <Von_Davidicus> And sorry for the linebrakes.
312. # [11:24] <annevk> don't think so
313. # [11:24] <annevk> try http://validator.nu/ to be sure
314. # [11:25] * Von_Davidicus was kidding. :)
315. # [11:25] <annevk> I think we do allow some old doctypes
316. # [11:26] <annevk> but better to stick to <!doctype html>
317. # [11:27] <annevk> Ms2ger: about features strings, can you ping eseidel somehow about which he wants to support?
318. # [11:27] <annevk> Ms2ger: he was the one you were talking with this about that right?
319. # [11:28] <annevk> Ms2ger: and maybe ask Gecko too?
320. # [11:28] <annevk> Ms2ger: source code or otherwise :p
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322. # [11:30] <annevk> ooh
323. # [11:30] <annevk> Mozilla just moved fullscreen to Element
324. # [11:30] <annevk> hmm
325. # [11:30] <Von_Davidicus> Another question, more serious this time: how will XHTML5 handle character entity references? I tried it and got Firefox's Yellow Screen of Death.
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329. # [11:33] <annevk> Von_Davidicus: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-xhtml-syntax.html#the-xhtml-syntax has some details
330. # [11:33] <annevk> Von_Davidicus: best to just use HTML
331. # [11:34] <annevk> Von_Davidicus: or stay away from named entities
332. # [11:36] <Von_Davidicus> Okay.
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336. # [11:42] <annevk> http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/111028/trunk/Source/WebCore/dom/Document.idl
337. # [11:42] <annevk> hmm
338. # [11:42] <annevk> both Mozilla and W3C version
339. # [11:42] <annevk> never mind that Fullscreen is not done at the W3C
340. # [11:42] <annevk> at least not that I know of
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349. # [12:07] <annevk> haha
350. # [12:07] <annevk> http://www.alistapart.com/authors/�/tantekcelik
351. # [12:11] * Von_Davidicus ponders whether or not to turn one of his pages from HTML 4.01 to HTML5
352. # [12:17] <Philip`> Von_Davidicus: You shouldn't bother, unless it'll give any practical benefits to your page's users
353. # [12:17] <Philip`> Better to spend the effort on more meaningful changes :-)
354. # [12:18] <Von_Davidicus> Well, the page hasn't needed a change in a while.
355. # [12:24] <Ms2ger> annevk, I dunno if I talked to anybody at webkit
356. # [12:26] <annevk> Ms2ger: but I do
357. # [12:26] <annevk> Ms2ger: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76214#c5
358. # [12:27] <Ms2ger> Ah, indeed
359. # [12:28] <Von_Davidicus> Hmmm... if the "checked" attribute isn't allowed, how DO I preselect a checkbox?
360. # [12:30] <Von_Davidicus> or, for that matter, "readonly"?
361. # [12:30] <annevk> it is allowed
362. # [12:30] <Philip`> Von_Davidicus: Who says it's not allowed?
363. # [12:31] <Von_Davidicus> Well, the W3C validator I just checked my page on.
364. # [12:32] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
365. # [12:32] <Philip`> It reports no error for me for e.g. "<!DOCTYPE html><title></title><input type=checkbox checked>"
366. # [12:33] <Philip`> (though the spec doesn't allow readonly on checkboxes)
367. # [12:34] <Von_Davidicus> The tags I'm having trouble with are: <input name="Rods_Count" class="rod_count readonly" type="hidden" readonly="readonly" value="0"> and <input name="Rods_Choose" class="rod_check" type="hidden" checked="checked">.
368. # [12:34] <volkmar> annevk: where is window.fullscreen spec'd?
369. # [12:34] <Philip`> Von_Davidicus: checked is meaningless (hence not allowed) for type=hidden
370. # [12:35] <Philip`> Same for readonly for type=hidden
371. # [12:35] * Von_Davidicus will thus have to redo some of his PHP.
372. # [12:35] <Philip`> (http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/states-of-the-type-attribute.html#hidden-state-(type=hidden) gives the details)
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374. # [12:36] <Von_Davidicus_> And, possible, some of my JavaScript.
375. # [12:36] <Ms2ger> annevk, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/DOM_features should have all those that Gecko supports now
376. # [12:36] <Philip`> Von_Davidicus: Why are you specifying those attributes here, when they don't make sense for hidden inputs?
377. # [12:38] <volkmar> annevk: forget the question... I realize it's not part of a spec...
378. # [12:38] <annevk> volkmar: that attribute does not exist; see http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/fullscreen/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
379. # [12:39] <volkmar> annevk: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/window.fullScreen
380. # [12:39] <Von_Davidicus_> Because I need them there for my JavaScript to work.
381. # [12:39] <annevk> volkmar: do we need that attribute for something?
382. # [12:40] <annevk> volkmar: it seems you can already accomplish that using matchMedia and for element fullscreen you can check document.fullscreenElement
383. # [12:40] <annevk> it's also incorrectly cased
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385. # [12:41] <volkmar> annevk: sadly, seems like document.fullscreenEnabled is cased mozFullScreenEnabled in Gecko
386. # [12:41] <annevk> hopefully that's fixed when they unprefix
387. # [12:41] <Ms2ger> Do we have a bug to unprefix?
388. # [12:42] <annevk> Firefox is standardizing on "fullscreen" after all and so is the rest of the world
389. # [12:42] <annevk> (in UI language)
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391. # [12:45] <Von_Davidicus_> Basically, my code assumed that every table row would have those elements in it--and the inputs were hidden if they weren't actually needed.
392. # [12:49] <annevk> Ms2ger: haven't seen anything
393. # [12:50] <annevk> I'm having a hard time to not prematurely merge big5 and big5-hkscs
394. # [12:50] <Ms2ger> I'll file
395. # [12:51] <annevk> cool
396. # [12:51] <annevk> hopefully Gecko can create some sanity in the all the Fullscreen code out there
397. # [12:52] <annevk> I haven't seen much community feedback btw; I guess it works good enough...
398. # [12:52] <Ms2ger> Facebook uses it for photos, I hear
399. # [12:52] <annevk> youtube, vimeo, etc. use it
400. # [12:53] <annevk> but all with lots of code paths because of the prefixes, prefixed events, etc.
401. # [12:53] <annevk> it's quite the mess
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406. # [12:58] <volkmar> annevk: fullscreen specs say "HTML defines under what conditions the fullscreen enabled flag is set"
407. # [12:58] <volkmar> but I don't see anything in the html specs
408. # [12:59] <annevk> yeah HTML needs to be updated
409. # [12:59] <annevk> not sure if I filed a bug on that already
410. # [13:00] <annevk> but basically, I think the latest was that <iframe allowfullscreen> sets that flag
411. # [13:00] <annevk> for the document it contains
412. # [13:00] <annevk> and it's set automatically for the top-level browsing context's document
413. # [13:00] <volkmar> annevk: so, to know if a document is fullscreen, you have to do fullscreenElement != null, right?
414. # [13:01] <annevk> to know if an element is fullscreen you do that
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416. # [13:01] <annevk> if you want to know if the user used some kind of UI you would use media queries
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419. # [13:02] <volkmar> so, a dev can't know if the page is currently fullscreen?
420. # [13:03] <annevk> I just said the opposite
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422. # [13:03] <volkmar> sorry
423. # [13:03] <volkmar> i meant, with a js api
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425. # [13:03] * Von_Davidicus heads offline.
426. # [13:03] <annevk> there's window.matchMedia
427. # [13:04] <Von_Davidicus_> Thanks for the header element info. :)
428. # [13:04] <annevk> volkmar: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#dom-window-matchmedia
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431. # [13:06] <annevk> yay foolip
432. # [13:06] <annevk> one interwebs for foolip please
433. # [13:08] <Ms2ger> Granted
434. # [13:09] <annevk> seems I'm gonna take a break for a couple of hours
435. # [13:10] <annevk> big5 can wait a little
436. # [13:11] <annevk> volkmar: if you think fullscreen status of a document (other than fullscreen element) needs some kind of convenience attribute please email WHATWG
437. # [13:11] <annevk> volkmar: I personally think media queries combined wit the API for them are fine, especially since the majority case will be an element fullscreen
438. # [13:11] <annevk> with*
439. # [13:12] <Ms2ger> What makes people even publish mixed-encoding pages?
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452. # [13:52] <kennyluck> Can someone give me some examples of invalid URL?
453. # [13:52] <kennyluck> I know "%" is invalid in IE for one.
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478. # [15:22] <annevk> kennyluck: http://a b/
479. # [15:22] <annevk> kennyluck: note the space
480. # [15:22] <annevk> kennyluck: however, we might make make it so that all URLs can be resolved
481. # [15:22] <annevk> kennyluck: and that failures happen at the network layer instead
482. # [15:23] <annevk> kennyluck: kind of depends on the URL work, which MikeSmith is working on and abarth is sometimes
483. # [15:23] <annevk> I might work on that after Encodings is done, dunno
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496. # [15:53] <annevk> foolip_: hey
497. # [15:54] <foolip_> annevk, hi
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499. # [15:54] <annevk> foolip_: so those 22 pages where all the pages with bytes in the indicated ranges
500. # [15:54] <annevk> s/where/were/
501. # [15:55] <annevk> foolip_: all the pages with lead bytes under 0xA1 or in the 0xC6-0xC8 region
502. # [15:55] <foolip_> annevk, do you think that skews the results?
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504. # [15:56] <annevk> not really, those are the ranges for which browsers have incompatible mappings
505. # [15:56] <annevk> and for which big5 and big5-hkscs have incompatible mappings
506. # [15:56] <annevk> everything else they agree on so that does not really matter
507. # [15:57] <annevk> so I think that what you generated is fine
508. # [15:57] <annevk> and just default to FFFD for the rest
509. # [15:57] <foolip_> right, I was quite happy to see that the compatible intersection of big5 was a subset of the compatible intersection of big5-hkscs, save one mapping
510. # [15:57] <annevk> the multiple code point stuff seems hairy though
511. # [15:57] <foolip_> annevk, spec-wise or implementation-wise?
512. # [15:58] <annevk> I guess we can special case it if there's only four
513. # [15:58] <foolip_> The alternative is
514. # [15:58] <foolip_> PUA
515. # [15:58] <Ms2ger> Go wash your mouth
516. # [15:59] <annevk> so
517. # [15:59] <annevk> <U+00CA,U+0304> Ê̄
518. # [15:59] <foolip_> annevk, yes, the official hkscs-2008 mapping listed only those 4
519. # [15:59] <annevk> is there no NFC character for that?
520. # [15:59] <foolip_> annevk, nope, at least not according to python unicodedata
521. # [15:59] <annevk> we could also FFFD it given that we didn't find it in real usage
522. # [16:00] <foolip_> It seems better to follow the spec when there is one, don't you think?
523. # [16:00] <foolip_> or does it create other problems?
524. # [16:00] <foolip_> I'll see what the surrounding characters were, these 4 seem a bit random...
525. # [16:01] <annevk> dunno, I don't really have respect for legacy encoding standards and it makes both the encoder and decoder more complicated
526. # [16:01] <foolip_> annevk, the surrounding characters are also various latin letters with diacritics, so it seems about right
527. # [16:01] <annevk> so far all encoders work by just passing in one code point at a time and getting back some bytes
528. # [16:02] <annevk> for this it would need state
529. # [16:02] <foolip_> can't it just return more bytes?
530. # [16:02] <foolip_> oh, encoder?
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532. # [16:03] <foolip_> why should we spec an encoder for big5?
533. # [16:03] <annevk> URLs and <form>
534. # [16:03] <foolip_> meh, so that's already web-exposed?
535. # [16:03] <annevk> yes
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537. # [16:04] <foolip_> I'll see if the individual code points can be represented in Big5...
538. # [16:05] <annevk> we could also not support it in the encoder
539. # [16:05] <annevk> and if they're not in big5 they would turn into entities in the common case
540. # [16:05] <annevk> and support them as some kind of special path in the decoder
541. # [16:05] <foolip_> nope, big5-hkscs has no combining characters it seems, but python does actually support encoding these properly
542. # [16:06] <foolip_> I would suggest special-casing them and seeing if implementors complain
543. # [16:07] <annevk> does any browser implementation support them now though?
544. # [16:07] <annevk> because if they don't, I'm not sure it's worth adding
545. # [16:09] <foolip_> they all use PUA
546. # [16:09] <annevk> oh right, except for Opera?
547. # [16:09] <foolip_> right
548. # [16:09] <foolip_> specing PUA seems worthwhile avoiding, IMHO
549. # [16:10] <annevk> fair enough
550. # [16:10] <foolip_> decoding them correctly seems sensible, for the encoder I'm quite sure just dropping them would do
551. # [16:11] <foolip_> or what do encoders do with code points that can't be represented?
552. # [16:11] <annevk> k
553. # [16:11] <annevk> depends I think
554. # [16:11] <annevk> form submission makes them entities
555. # [16:11] <annevk> URLs might use "?"
556. # [16:11] * annevk forgot
557. # [16:11] <annevk> I haven't really looked at encoders in detail yet
558. # [16:11] <annevk> there's lots of XXX for encoders
559. # [16:11] <foolip_> ok, so encoding the first half and escaping the second as an entity might do the job
560. # [16:13] <annevk> where did you find the HKSCS standard btw?
561. # [16:13] <annevk> (agreed btw with the encoder suggestion)
562. # [16:13] <foolip_> annevk, http://www.ogcio.gov.hk/en/business/tech_promotion/ccli/download_area/mapping_table_2008.htm
563. # [16:14] <foolip_> I also checked it into the git repo
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565. # [16:16] <annevk> k sweet
566. # [16:16] <annevk> I'll take a stab at updating the big5 algorithm
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568. # [16:16] <foolip_> annevk, great, I'm quite sure this would be an improvement even with the missing mappings
569. # [16:17] <annevk> foolip_: 8862 => <U+00CA,U+0304> is that a big5.json like index? the 8862 number?
570. # [16:17] <foolip_> annevk, the bytes \x88\x62, I used the notation in the HKSCS-2008 mapping table there
571. # [16:17] <annevk> ah
572. # [16:17] <foolip_> (and in list of missing mappings)
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574. # [16:18] <annevk> right
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577. # [16:19] <foolip_> annevk, I'll have a look at trying to categorize the missing mappings and perhaps asking the Chinese HTML IG if they know more.
578. # [16:19] <foolip_> happy easter!
579. # [16:20] <annevk> ah yeah, that might be a good idea
580. # [16:20] <annevk> you too!
581. # [16:20] <foolip_> some of the missing mappings smell a lot like they could be de-facto big5 extensions or something
582. # [16:20] <annevk> oh and btw, we might standardize this through the W3C i18n WG at some point
583. # [16:20] <foolip_> mkay
584. # [16:20] <annevk> there's a lot of big5 extensions
585. # [16:21] <annevk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big5 has a bunch on that front
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587. # [16:21] <annevk> http://coq.no/character-tables/chinese-traditional/en too
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590. # [16:23] <foolip_> annevk, thanks, I'll have a look
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598. # [16:54] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#big5
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600. # [16:58] <davidb> at
601. # [16:58] <Ms2ger> mozilla.com?
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603. # [16:59] <annevk> I guess I should fetch that script from foolip
604. # [17:00] <annevk> generate myself a big5 index
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609. # [17:25] <Velmont> Ms2ger: Ohmy. :-) I should also test it again, -- but I've been on vacation for a while now (still am) -- so don't have my nice setup that I've got at the office.
610. # [17:25] <Ms2ger> Pff, vacations
611. # [17:26] <Ms2ger> Those are good to get work done :)
612. # [17:26] <Velmont> Hehe. -- Well, I managed to fsck up the only two lines I changed, missing a var and actually not doing what I said I should do in an older comment. :S
613. # [17:27] <Ms2ger> That's better than messing up lines you didn't change
614. # [17:27] <Velmont> Guess that's true ;}
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621. # [17:45] <annevk> hmm
622. # [17:45] <annevk> the first 900 or so positions have no mapping
623. # [17:45] <annevk> weird
624. # [17:46] <annevk> I now understand why foolip was wondering about that a little more
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637. # [18:20] <fkm> Hi there. I have a problem with the validator not accepting code that is valid according to the specs. The validator tells me that "The text content of element time was not in the required format: The literal did not satisfy the date or time format. <span><time>1991</time> ...de la planète Mars</span>". But according to the specs, the time element accepts "A valid non-negative integer representing a year <time>2011</time>".
638. # [18:20] <fkm> The page in question is http://dev.snemelk.ch/pages/bonfire/iam/artist.html
639. # [18:20] <fkm> The specs I have consulted are http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-time-element.html and http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-time-element
640. # [18:20] <fkm> Am I missing something or is this a bug in the validator? I tried validator.w3.org and also the underlying validator.nu to see if the problem is with the implementation by the W3C but both tell me the same thing.
641. # [18:23] <Philip`> fkm: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=913 sounds like it might be relevant
642. # [18:23] <Philip`> MikeSmith may know
643. # [18:25] <[tm]> fkm: i think the validator code is not yup to date with the spec
644. # [18:26] <fkm> Ok. In that case, there is still hope for me yet :-)
645. # [18:26] <fkm> Thank you both for the feedback!
646. # [18:26] <[tm]> either file a bug or comment on whatever existing one there might be
647. # [18:27] <[tm]> time element should really just be dropped
648. # [18:27] <fkm> I have prepared an email to the W3C validator mailing-list. But I guess I could post it on the validator.nu bug-tracker.
649. # [18:27] <[tm]> it was a mistake to add it to begin with
650. # [18:28] <[tm]> fkm: yeah
651. # [18:28] <fkm> I kind of like the time element. At least more than the new b, i and, u elements ;-)
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653. # [18:29] <[tm]> yeah well
654. # [18:29] <[tm]> those aren't new
655. # [18:29] <Ms2ger> annevk, so what are these code points supposed to map to now?
656. # [18:30] <annevk> Ms2ger: not in a map, they'll become U+FFFD
657. # [18:30] <annevk> Ms2ger: already implemented in Gecko
658. # [18:30] <Ms2ger> Oh
659. # [18:30] <Ms2ger> If I don't need to do anything, go ahead :)
660. # [18:30] <annevk> well, not sure about trunk
661. # [18:30] <annevk> did you change encodings already?
662. # [18:30] <Ms2ger> I haven't changed much lately
663. # [18:31] <fkm> [tm]: I know. But with HTML5 they have a new, "semantic" meaning. But it is not my place to question the HTML specs. I am too much of a rookie to go there.
664. # [18:32] <Ms2ger> Hah
665. # [18:32] <Ms2ger> It's the rookies that need to question the spec
666. # [18:32] <Ms2ger> Because we all got used to it
667. # [18:32] <fkm> I will keep that in mind :-)
668. # [18:33] <Ms2ger> (Not on the meaning of b and i, though... Those have been discussed to death :))
669. # [18:34] <annevk> fkm: it's always best to question things, but beware that you might not find logic, especially with web standards
670. # [18:34] <annevk> I guess I could update my test
671. # [18:40] <[tm]> if one of you in Belgium or Netherlands is interested in doing a three hour tutorial in Belgium this summer our fall, lemme know
672. # [18:40] <[tm]> i doubt there is much money involved
673. # [18:40] <[tm]> if any
674. # [18:42] <[tm]> Benelux
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676. # [18:42] <[tm]> your Belgian villages have some crazy names
677. # [18:43] <annevk> Benelux is actually 3 countries
678. # [18:43] <annevk> not a place
679. # [18:43] <[tm]> oh
680. # [18:43] <[tm]> shows WTF i know
681. # [18:44] <annevk> BElgium/NEtherlands/LUXembourg
682. # [18:44] <[tm]> ah
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684. # [18:45] <[tm]> Hmm so i guess this is in the Netherlands
685. # [18:46] <[tm]> +31
686. # [18:47] <[tm]> man i can't super the crusade against alcohol
687. # [18:49] <annevk> yeah that's NL
688. # [18:49] <[tm]> alcohol is the only thing that makes attending most of these meetings and conferences tolerable
689. # [18:50] <[tm]> telcons too
690. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> It does kinda suck when half the conf occurs in bars that are too loud to have good discussion in, but feeling excluded by drinking at all is venturing too far into the "accomodate my personal preferences!" territory.
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692. # [18:52] <annevk> solve all the social problems!
693. # [18:55] <[tm]> the suggested alternative of after meetings at a coffee shop doesn't really cut it
694. # [18:55] <fkm> Concerning the problem with the validator. Should I add my example as a testcase or an additional comment?
695. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> ...huh. I have absolutely no idea what this "Hypertext Layout, Reading Speed and Comprehension" thread is about.
696. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> (Also he doesnt' use serial comma ARGH)
697. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> As far as I can tell, someone decided to just collect a bunch of articles and say "Hey, these articles describe things vaguely related to what CSS3 Text cares about. Enjoy!".
698. # [18:55] <[tm]> that's like going to an AA meeting
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700. # [18:55] <[tm]> TabAtkins: is that from the www-style list?
701. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> Yes.
702. # [18:56] <[tm]> i think you're the only one still subscribed to that list
703. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> hahaha
704. # [18:56] <hober> not the only one
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706. # [18:57] <[tm]> ok two of you
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710. # [18:59] <[tm]> hober: btw you rock mightily for fighting the good fight on html WG CPs
711. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> Indeed.
712. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> I gave up.
713. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> Not worth the effort when it's a coin-toss anyway.
714. # [19:00] <[tm]> no comment
715. # [19:00] <[tm]> expletive deleted
716. # [19:02] <hober> [tm]: thanks! sometimes i think i'm the only one who takes seriously the charter requirement to seek convergence with the whatwg
717. # [19:02] <annevk> Ms2ger: http://dump.testsuite.org/encoding/single-byte-test.html seems not much has landed
718. # [19:04] <Ms2ger> Sounds right
719. # [19:05] <eseidel> Ms2ger: what about feature strings?
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722. # [19:06] <Ms2ger> eseidel, we'd like to put a static list in DOM4
723. # [19:06] <Ms2ger> And then lock the door and throw away the key
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725. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> Yes omg
726. # [19:07] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/DOM_features has a start
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728. # [19:08] <eseidel> Ms2ger: I support
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730. # [19:08] <hober> yes, feature strings need to DIAF
731. # [19:09] <eseidel> TabAtkins: ideally would like to only return YES for things which are requried for web compat
732. # [19:09] <Ms2ger> Can either of you fill in the blanks for WebKit? :)
733. # [19:09] <eseidel> Ms2ger: and NO for everythgin else
734. # [19:09] <Ms2ger> Agreed
735. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
736. # [19:10] * Joins: malcolmva (~malcolmva@pool-74-108-142-22.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
737. # [19:10] <Ms2ger> But first, data! :)
738. # [19:10] <eseidel> Ms2ger: http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebCore/dom/DOMImplementation.cpp#L220
739. # [19:11] <Ms2ger> On the wiki! ;)
740. # [19:11] <eseidel> Ms2ger: but it should be very very easy to write some simple js to test
741. # [19:11] <eseidel> Ms2ger: sorry, wiki's and I don't get along :)
742. # [19:11] <eseidel> I'm a reader, not a writer :p
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745. # [19:12] <annevk> that is prolly sufficient
746. # [19:13] <annevk> i'll just dump the link in the wiki
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748. # [19:14] <Ms2ger> eseidel, I love how it builds a hashset in isEvents3Feature, for one string :)
749. # [19:15] <annevk> whoa, SVG went nuclear with features
750. # [19:15] <annevk> what kind of code did they expect authors to write?
751. # [19:16] <Ms2ger> Well
752. # [19:16] <shepazu> annevk: huh?
753. # [19:16] <Ms2ger> You can use them from markup too, iirc
754. # [19:16] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the feature strings are used in <switch>
755. # [19:20] <eseidel> Ms2ger: this is performance critcal code you're readnig here
756. # [19:20] <eseidel> Ms2ger: we have our best men on it
757. # [19:20] <eseidel> Ms2ger: namely, me. :) (I think I wrote that section)
758. # [19:21] <Ms2ger> Ah, so that's why we're winning the browser wars ;)
759. # [19:21] <eseidel> oh, I just thought we were all singing kareoke at the local browser pub
760. # [19:22] <eseidel> (and SVG was drunk in the corner, spouting about fonts and feature strings)
761. # [19:22] <Ms2ger> Then I'd feel excluded :(
762. # [19:22] <Ms2ger> They don't like letting AIs into bars...
763. # [19:22] <TabAtkins> You and bz can go have AI fun somewhere.
764. # [19:22] <TabAtkins> (Pretty sure the thing I met at SXSW was just a skinvelope controlled by bz.)
765. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> We've done that enough when he was building me
766. # [19:24] <Ms2ger> Also, TabAtkins, when are you going to write the box tree spec? :)
767. # [19:25] <TabAtkins> After I write the parsing spec, which I'm in the middle of right now.
768. # [19:25] <TabAtkins> Or actually, roughly in the beginning, but still.
769. # [19:28] <[tm]> He refused to accept vice in exchange for his lulz
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771. # [19:33] <annevk> shepazu: just that has so many
772. # [19:33] <annevk> TabAtkins: kind of jealous now
773. # [19:35] <annevk> "WAI-Engage is an open forum for responsive development of material
774. # [19:35] <annevk> supporting web accessibility, including support for Web Accessibility
775. # [19:35] <annevk> Initiative (WAI) resources."
776. # [19:35] <annevk> I don't even know what that means...
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778. # [19:49] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, including zcorpan's quirks stuff?
779. # [19:50] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Um, sure!
780. # [19:50] * TabAtkins has to actually look at that spec.
781. # [19:53] <moo-_-> I have this really ambitious idea: I'd like that sites could suggest color and background colour for tabs besides the site icon. I know it's not going to happen very easily, but if it were to happen how I should take this idea forward. creating chrome + ff add-ons supporting this, promoting them like mad and then hope it is adopted by the browsers themselves some point?
782. # [19:54] <moo-_-> this would be mostly for usability. add-ons like colorfultabs do this already, but you need to manually configure in the sites.
783. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> That sounds like a bad idea that I would hate.
784. # [19:55] <jamesr> TabAtkins: "That's a bad idea. You should feel bad."
785. # [19:55] <Philip`> Sounds like it should be as popular as IE's scrollbar colouring CSS
786. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> Well, moo-_- shouldn't feel bad. I'm just saying, I would hate it.
787. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> And since I'm clearly representative of all users...
788. # [19:55] <jamesr> Philip`, you mean WebKit's? IE has that too?
789. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> Pretty sure we copied IE there.
790. # [19:56] <moo-_-> TabAtkins: ok, let me ask then is there anything we could do to make tabs / windows / bookmarks / etc. more distinctive besides their favicon?
791. # [19:56] <Philip`> jamesr: http://www.javascriptkit.com/howto/scrollbarcolor.shtml
792. # [19:56] <moo-_-> like all slashdot.org tabs would have (non-offending) green background
793. # [19:56] * Philip` didn't realise WebKit had done it
794. # [19:57] <jamesr> Philip`, WebKit has pseudoes
795. # [19:57] <annevk> moo-_-: there are some extensions for that
796. # [19:57] <jamesr> http://www.webkit.org/blog/363/styling-scrollbars/:
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798. # [19:57] <annevk> given that Apple tries to get rid of the scrollbar creating pseudos for that was a silly idea
799. # [19:57] <moo-_-> annevk: I am aware of that
800. # [19:57] <moo-_-> annevk: but my point was more like that websites themselves could suggest the colours
801. # [19:57] <moo-_-> hmm
802. # [19:58] <annevk> moo-_-: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Is_there_a_process_for_adding_new_features_to_a_specification.3F
803. # [19:58] <annevk> moo-_-: might help
804. # [19:58] <moo-_-> annevk: thanks
805. # [19:58] <moo-_-> this is a starting point, at least
806. # [19:58] <moo-_-> :)
807. # [19:58] <annevk> moo-_-: if there's interest from authors, browser UI people, no phishing problems, no security problems, it might have a chance...
808. # [19:59] <annevk> moo-_-: but I doubt it somewhat
809. # [19:59] <annevk> moo-_-: the extension could use some information from the page as a hint for the color
810. # [20:00] <dglazkov> good ${time_of_day}, Whatwg!
811. # [20:01] <moo-_-> annevk: yep. my first idea was to have (all) extension authors to agree on some way to extract this information from HTML <head> <meta>
812. # [20:02] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
813. # [20:05] <annevk> moo-_-: fwiw, Opera has this experimental thing with just having large tabs that show thumbnails of the pages
814. # [20:05] <annevk> I don't use it because I have a smallish screen, but it has some potential I think
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817. # [20:05] <moo-_-> annevk: I tried that feature... nice but takes little screen estate
818. # [20:06] <moo-_-> annevk: IE9 + Win8 also do this tab bar thumbnail thing
819. # [20:06] <moo-_-> but it is not good for visually grouping which pages came from which sites
820. # [20:06] <moo-_-> you still need to "read" thumbnails
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823. # [20:09] <Ms2ger> Good, dglazkov
824. # [20:09] <dglazkov> ${time_of_day | "morning"}
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833. # [20:23] <annevk> hsivonen: I like how it says "Note: I’ve also added the prefixes versions –moz, –webkit & –o for Mozilla, Webkit & Opera to be compatible with the other browsers. Never forget to do the same!" and then continues to just do that
834. # [20:24] <annevk> hsivonen: but it's better than most browser advocacy
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836. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> Hrm. I always forget what the \237 indicates in the CSS syntax definition of "non-ascii".
837. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> (Defined as [^\0-\237].)
838. # [20:30] <annevk> octal
839. # [20:31] <annevk> which is 159 or 0x9F
840. # [20:31] <annevk> iirc
841. # [20:32] <TabAtkins> Yeah it is. I just don't understand what the significance of 0x9f is.
842. # [20:32] <TabAtkins> Oh, I was looking at an extended ascii chart, not at unicode.
843. # [20:32] <TabAtkins> A0 is where the real characters start again.
844. # [20:33] <annevk> it should be 0x7F
845. # [20:33] <annevk> well dunno
846. # [20:33] <annevk> CSS is weird
847. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> 0x80 to 0x9F are all non-printable control characters.
848. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> So I guess it's sensical to cut those out too.
849. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> But it's not really "non-ascii" then. ^_^
850. # [20:34] <annevk> well yeah, and there's a ton of other code points that are not actually "usable"
851. # [20:34] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
852. # [20:34] <TabAtkins> I'm guessing it was just a useful block to cut out, since it's adjacent to the ascii block.
853. # [20:34] <annevk> I can already see them discussing this in a committee meeting
854. # [20:35] <annevk> that's actually a rather funny thought
855. # [20:35] * Joins: nesta_ (~nesta_@153.82.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es)
856. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> hehe
857. # [20:37] <annevk> only one decoder to go
858. # [20:37] <annevk> never imagined it would take this long, but it's starting to look pretty neat
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862. # [20:41] <TabAtkins> Huh. Why is parsing so complicated?
863. # [20:41] <Hixie> dialog.show()/showModal() or dialog.open()/openModal()? I was going to use show() but the convention is to have a close() method and onclose handler
864. # [20:41] <TabAtkins> It looks a lot easier when you use a grammar.
865. # [20:41] <TabAtkins> Using "open" has an interesting parallel with <details open>
866. # [20:42] <Hixie> we are going to have <dialog open>
867. # [20:42] <Hixie> maybe that's a good reason not to use open()
868. # [20:42] <Hixie> it would clash with the IDL attribute reflecting open=""
869. # [20:42] <Hixie> looks like most APIs use showModal()
870. # [20:42] <Hixie> as opposed to openModal()
871. # [20:42] * Hixie decides to stick with show
872. # [20:43] <annevk> TabAtkins: yeah, CSS parsing is vastly more complicated than it needs to be
873. # [20:43] * Quits: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
874. # [20:43] <annevk> TabAtkins: mostly because of the grammar and nobody looking at handwriting a tokenizer
875. # [20:44] <Hixie> css parsing is also complicated because the grammar didn't define any of the error handling
876. # [20:44] <Hixie> so the error handling became semi-random, like html's
877. # [20:45] <Hixie> (well, it defined some error handling, but only within the "forward-compatible grammar" set)
878. # [20:45] <TabAtkins> annevk: Really, the complication is just that it's an ad-hoc grammar with lots of options at a lot of points, rather than the relatively simply HTML grammar (ignoring quirks and scripts).
879. # [20:46] <Hixie> good thing i wasn't drinking anything when i read _that_
880. # [20:46] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Dude, go look at your description of the types of tokens. There's, like, 5 of them.
881. # [20:47] <Hixie> ignoring quirks and scripts it's pretty simple, i agree :-)
882. # [20:47] * Joins: jryans (~jryans@cpe-70-124-81-135.austin.res.rr.com)
883. # [20:49] <annevk> I especially hate that escapes can occur everywhere
884. # [20:50] <annevk> I would have removed that in 2000, if I was smarter back then
885. # [20:52] <Ms2ger> Oh man
886. # [20:52] <Ms2ger> If I had a time machine...
887. # [20:53] <Ms2ger> Killing Hitler? Nah, I'd lock Bert and howcome in a room for a few hours
888. # [20:53] * Joins: RobbertAtWork (~Robbert@212.238.236.229)
889. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> ...I'd create a Turing oracle and break open computation levels, brute-forcing my way to immediate godlike-AI.
890. # [20:53] <Hixie> hah
891. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> (And then be killed by it, because its value system doesn't recognize life as a useful thing.)
892. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> (Or as a "thing" at all.)
893. # [21:01] <Hixie> options for aligning these dialogs... use aps pos and define the static position as one that happens to result in the alignment i want; define that the element is in a positioning regime that ignores 'position' and 'float'; invent a new 'position' keyword that works like 'relative' but starts with the appropriate alignment rather than the static position (that one is harder since from CSS the new keyword would be useless without a way to define the link from one el
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896. # [21:05] <Hixie> hmm
897. # [21:06] <TabAtkins> That cut off at "from one el" for me.
898. # [21:08] <Hixie> from one element to another
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900. # [21:09] <Hixie> should it be possible to turn a <dialog> that's already open into a modal dialog? or should .showModal() do nothing or throw an exception if it is already open?
901. # [21:09] <TabAtkins> So, the element() function provides a way to link one element to another. But right now it's defined to only take an id selector.
902. # [21:09] <Hixie> (and should the answer be different if it's open and modal or open and not modal?)
903. # [21:10] <Hixie> TabAtkins: the link between the elements is given by the argument to the show() method, it's not in CSS
904. # [21:10] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Okay, so it's magic from CSS's perspective. That's fine.
905. # [21:10] <Hixie> right
906. # [21:10] <Hixie> i'm just saying a new keyword would be kinda silly since there'd be no good way to use it in other contexts
907. # [21:11] <Hixie> new position keyword
908. # [21:11] <Hixie> i'm thinking either these elements should be forced into a new regime, or i should just use abs pos with a redefined static position
909. # [21:11] <TabAtkins> Actually, I think you should just define a new position value.
910. # [21:11] <Hixie> what would it mean if used on a random div?
911. # [21:11] <TabAtkins> It's just as magic, but it can be picked up by CSS later.
912. # [21:12] <TabAtkins> I'm thinking it woudl be equivalent to 'relative'.
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914. # [21:13] <Hixie> could work
915. # [21:14] <Hixie> hmm
916. # [21:14] <Hixie> how do i have a different rule for dialogs that were given an alignment system and dialogs that should just center themselves?
917. # [21:14] <Hixie> could be magic, i suppose
918. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> Magic for now.
919. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> I'll review after you lay down some text.
920. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> To make sure it's not hostile to what I want to do with 'position'.
921. # [21:15] <TabAtkins> Lunch now to grab an interview candidate.
922. # [21:15] <Hixie> hehe
923. # [21:15] <Hixie> later
924. # [21:23] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2012/02/timed-text-wg-charter
925. # [21:23] <annevk> o_O
926. # [21:23] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
927. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> Wow
928. # [21:23] <annevk> "A Section Edition of the Timed Text Markup Language (TTML) 1.0 Recommendation"
929. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> LC: N/A
930. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> CR: N/A
931. # [21:24] <Ms2ger> PR: N/A
932. # [21:24] <Ms2ger> Rec: November 2012
933. # [21:24] <annevk> boom
934. # [21:24] <annevk> headshot
935. # [21:24] <Hixie> why "o_O" ?
936. # [21:24] <Hixie> it's pretty normal for wgs to have their charters extended like this...
937. # [21:25] <Hixie> (by "normal" i mean "common place" not "sensible")
938. # [21:25] <Ms2ger> Well, charters
939. # [21:25] <Ms2ger> The former was already ruled out
940. # [21:26] <annevk> given https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=34314 it's highly surprising this is being extended
941. # [21:26] <annevk> the o_O was for W3C continuing to put effort into something the community is not really behind
942. # [21:26] <Hixie> um...
943. # [21:26] <Hixie> the w3c does that all the time
944. # [21:26] <Hixie> for some definition of "community"
945. # [21:26] <Hixie> e.g. rdf...
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947. # [21:27] <Ms2ger> Heh, I don't think I've seen "not in good standing" before
948. # [21:28] <annevk> Hixie: true, this feels a bit different, more like another XHTML 2.0 group
949. # [21:29] <annevk> maybe I should reply with some comments
950. # [21:30] <Hixie> xhtml2 lasted years past the point of the community not being really behind it
951. # [21:30] <Hixie> xforms' charter only ran out last month
952. # [21:31] <Hixie> (and their timeline has dates until september 2012, so i doubt they'll be closed)
953. # [21:31] <Hixie> just let the group do it's stuff, the alternative is they come and try to force their ideas into our stuff :-P
954. # [21:31] <Hixie> its
955. # [21:33] <Ms2ger> (Also, for the interested people without member access: https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=34314&public=1)
956. # [21:33] <annevk> ah thanks Ms2ger, didn't know that was available
957. # [21:34] <Ms2ger> "The participants list is available publicly"
958. # [21:34] <Ms2ger> 4th bullet
959. # [21:34] <annevk> Hixie: fair enough
960. # [21:35] <annevk> Ms2ger: fascinating
961. # [21:35] <Ms2ger> No kidding
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970. # [21:52] <fkm> I have another question about the validator. I am not sure if I understood the concept of flow and phrasing content correctly. The way I understand it, flow content is the same as block elements and phrasing content is the same as inline elements or innerHTML. Following this reasoning having inline elements as direct descendants of the body should not be valid. But the validator does not complain.
971. # [21:52] <fkm> Here's an example: http://dev.snemelk.ch/tests/html5-content_model.html
972. # [21:52] <fkm> Is there a flaw with my reasoning or is this another bug (out of sync problem) in the validator?
973. # [21:54] <annevk> you should read the definitions more carefully probably
974. # [21:54] <fkm> Ok. I will do that :-) Thank you!
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976. # [21:55] <annevk> and try to forget about block/inline-level
977. # [21:56] <fkm> I will try. But old habits die hard ;-)
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982. # [21:59] <Hixie> fkm: to find out what is allowed in <body>, go to the body element's definition in the spec, and check it's "content model" description
983. # [21:59] <Hixie> fkm: follow the links from that to see what the terms mean
984. # [22:00] <fkm> Ok
985. # [22:00] * fkm has much to learn :-)
986. # [22:00] <fkm> Thank you both for the pointers!
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1024. # Session Close: Sat Apr 07 00:00:01 2012

The end :)