/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-04-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Apr 09 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <zewt> not mutually exclusive
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  6. # [00:07] <zewt> gaaaaaaah
  7. # [00:08] <zewt> awesomeness is firefox crashing while spending half an hour trying to composite a message in jp
  8. # [00:08] <zewt> time for a test of session restoration!
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  15. # [00:44] <jgraham> gsnedders: I have stayed at http://www.hostaladriano.com/ a couple of times. Hardly amazing but good/cheap enough to go back to
  16. # [00:44] <jgraham> Also very central
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  22. # [01:21] <heycam> Philip`, yes, the SVG WG is planning on having data-* attributes on SVG elements
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  41. # [03:20] <zewt> hmm. what specs (other than webgl) have entry points that take numeric arrays (int[], float[])? can't think of any
  42. # [03:20] <zewt> every search engine ever written has been useless at searching for "int[]"
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  53. # [05:38] <Hixie> i wish there was a way in CSS to say 'width: fill-the-container-but-for-the-purposes-of-shrink-wrap-act-as-if-you-had-a-width-of-0'
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  77. # [09:21] <annevk> we're gonna mention "Document Object Model"? hmm
  78. # [09:22] <Ms2ger`> Oh, was that the first?
  79. # [09:22] <annevk> if we do <code>Text</code> we should also do <code>DocumentType</code> I think
  80. # [09:22] <annevk> I think so
  81. # [09:22] <annevk> I carefully avoided it thus far I think
  82. # [09:23] <Ms2ger`> I didn't find concept-text :)
  83. # [09:23] <annevk> fair enough
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  85. # [09:38] <annevk> hmm
  86. # [09:39] <annevk> the shift_jis algorithm advertised everywhere is quite complex, but why...
  87. # [09:39] <annevk> compare:
  88. # [09:39] <annevk> JPROW = 94
  89. # [09:39] <annevk> def get_sjis_i2(lead, trail):
  90. # [09:39] <annevk> leadoffset = 0xC1 if lead > 0x9F else 0x81
  91. # [09:39] <annevk> trailoffset = 0x41 if trail > 0x7F else 0x40
  92. # [09:39] <annevk> return (lead-leadoffset) * (2 * JPROW) + trail - trailoffset
  93. # [09:39] <annevk> def get_sjis_i1(lead, trail):
  94. # [09:39] <annevk> adjust = 1 if trail < 0x9F else 0
  95. # [09:39] <annevk> leadoffset = 0x70 if lead < 0xA0 else 0xB0
  96. # [09:39] <annevk> trailoffset = (0x41 if trail > 0x7F else 0x40) if adjust else 0x9F
  97. # [09:39] <annevk> return ((((lead - leadoffset) * 2) - adjust) - 0x21) * JPROW + trail - trailoffset
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  99. # [09:40] <annevk> gives identical results
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  102. # [09:54] <annevk> not enough shift_jis people here huh? :)
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  105. # [10:40] <annevk> hmm
  106. # [10:40] <annevk> Gecko...
  107. # [10:40] <annevk> <meta charset=gbk><a></a><script>var a = document.getElementsByTagName("a")[0]; a.href = "?\u20AC"; alert(a.href) </script>
  108. # [10:40] <annevk> Y U NO WORK?!
  109. # [10:43] <annevk> but given an index (which I have) and a function to convert a point in an index to a byte sequence (which is not too hard), testing encoders should be fairly straightforward
  110. # [10:43] <annevk> except in Gecko
  111. # [10:49] <annevk> hmm
  112. # [10:49] <annevk> you have to account for duplicates somehow too
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  138. # [14:41] <Velmont> Hixie: I think most do.
  139. # [14:42] <Velmont> Would be really cool to have in the css though, -- not too nice if you don't have tab-complete. fill-the-container-but-for-the-purposes-of-shrink-wrap-act-as-if-you-had-a-width-of-0 -- guess it'll also be hard to remember exactly. :P
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  142. # [14:52] <annevk> seems like my alternative shift_js math is correct
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  156. # [15:36] <annevk> oh hey, that thing I was talking about the other day is called a fencepost error
  157. # [15:36] <annevk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-by-one_error
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  212. # [18:57] <MikeSmith> jzaefferer or scott_gonzalez if you're around, wanted to ask how many files total are in your test suite
  213. # [18:58] <jzaefferer> MikeSmith: About 300
  214. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> oh OK
  215. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> so that's fine
  216. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> Hixie: You can get that behavior by saying that the intrinsic width is 0, but it defaults to width:fill (defined in Writing Modes).
  217. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> jzaefferer: I put together a command-line validation client that won't require you to run the service to validate your files. But I'm waiting on hsivonen to get back to review the code before I land it
  218. # [19:00] <Hixie> TabAtkins: oh, cool
  219. # [19:00] <Hixie> TabAtkins: is that anywhere close to being implemented?
  220. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> jzaefferer: it will reduce your validation time to a few seconds
  221. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> Nobody's touched it, but it's just "what width:auto does for blocks", so implementation is trivial once someone cares about it.
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  223. # [19:02] <MikeSmith> jzaefferer: minimum of 4 seconds or so to validate your 300 files, but validation time for each file will be reduced to 20ms or at most 100ms I think
  224. # [19:02] <scott_gonzalez> MikeSmith: That's great.
  225. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> will require a single jar file
  226. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> about 18MB
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  229. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> which is the other thing I need to talk to hsivonen about
  230. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> we currently don't actually distribute any third-party cod
  231. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> *code
  232. # [19:05] <Hixie> TabAtkins: bummer
  233. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> scott_gonzalez: making a single jar available requires distributing 3rd-party code, so I want to make sure hsivonen is OK with that before we do it
  234. # [19:06] <scott_gonzalez> ok
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  240. # [19:22] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Are you using this for a spec, or for something real?
  241. # [19:22] <Hixie> real
  242. # [19:22] <Hixie> i come across it all the time
  243. # [19:22] <TabAtkins> Ah, never mind then.
  244. # [19:23] <Hixie> whenever i have something that shrinkwraps, e.g. a dialog or something, but it has to shrinkwrap around some widgets, and yet the dialog also contains text that can wrap
  245. # [19:23] <Hixie> and i'm happy for the text to wrap at whatever width the dialog ends up at
  246. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> Ah, but the dialog instead fills the parent, because the text is long enough to force that shrink-wrapping beahvior.
  247. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> Interesting.
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  253. # [19:43] <Hixie> what should happen if you click or mouseover an element that is outside a modal dialog
  254. # [19:43] <Hixie> should i just ignore the event?
  255. # [19:43] <Hixie> or should i do something more subtle, like only kill click events or something
  256. # [19:45] <Hixie> i think i'll just kill all user interaction events and prevent all focusing of elements outside the modal subtree and its ancestors
  257. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> I think that's legit.
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  259. # [19:48] <Hixie> i'm going to introduce inert="" as well while i do this, so that you can have semi-modal dialogs as some people have requested
  260. # [19:48] <Hixie> and make it use the same infrastructure
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  267. # [20:03] <Hixie> ok inertism (inertia? :-) ) blocks user interaction events and makes things not focusable
  268. # [20:03] <Hixie> anything else it should block while i'm at it?
  269. # [20:03] <Hixie> (bbiab)
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  271. # [20:05] <scott_gonzalez> Hixie: I don't recall the cross-browser specifics, but you might need to go into detail about how find/highlighting works while an inert element is open.
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  274. # [20:06] <scott_gonzalez> A quick test shows that in Chrome if an element has focus and you bring up the find interface, you can search for text on the page and then press escape to create a range around the first result of the find, which moves focus to the range.
  275. # [20:07] <scott_gonzalez> I recall doing that a lot when I was testing modal plugins a few years ago to see how well they worked.
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  279. # [20:24] <rafaelw_> annevk, smaug___, sicking: re: MutationObservers attributeFilter discussion.
  280. # [20:24] <sicking> rafaelw_: yes?
  281. # [20:24] <rafaelw_> question: MutationRecord.name (when type="attribute")
  282. # [20:25] <rafaelw_> in the case of xml, is that prefix:localName
  283. # [20:25] <rafaelw_> or just localName
  284. # [20:25] <rafaelw_> ?
  285. # [20:26] <sicking> looking
  286. # [20:26] <rafaelw_> i.e. what information is reported in the MutationRecord.
  287. # [20:26] <rafaelw_> ?
  288. # [20:26] <sicking> rafaelw_: note that attributes in the xlink namespace might not have a prefix
  289. # [20:26] <sicking> so they can have .name === .localName
  290. # [20:29] <sicking> rafaelw_: currently .attributeName is set to the name per spec, not localName
  291. # [20:29] <sicking> rafaelw_: lemme look what we do in our impl
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  293. # [20:31] <rafaelw_> WebKit appears to report localName right now.
  294. # [20:31] <rafaelw_> ;-(
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  296. # [20:31] <sicking> yeah, we do the same in gecko
  297. # [20:31] <sicking> i prefer that behaviro
  298. # [20:31] <sicking> behavior
  299. # [20:31] <rafaelw_> reporting only localName?
  300. # [20:31] <sicking> .name is rarely useful from a correctness point of view
  301. # [20:32] <sicking> actually, especially in the case of mutation observers, when you are often observing someone else's code, it makes much more sense to ignore prefixes
  302. # [20:32] <sicking> yeah, we only report localName
  303. # [20:32] <rafaelw_> but won't it be ambiguous what happened?
  304. # [20:33] <rafaelw_> you may not know what attribute changed?
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  307. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> Hixie: The word you're looking for is "inertness".
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  310. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> Hixie: What happens if you start selecting non-inert text, and drag into inert text?
  311. # [20:38] <TabAtkins> Hixie: And did you handle accesskeys/etc?
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  317. # [20:54] <rafaelw_> sicking: ^^. if only localName is reported, isn't that potentially ambiguous?
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  320. # [21:02] <smaug____> rafaelw_: ?
  321. # [21:02] <rafaelw_> hey. trying to settle the attributeFilter question.
  322. # [21:02] <rafaelw_> the thing I was asking is what does MutationRecord.name report if type='attribute'
  323. # [21:02] <rafaelw_> name or localName.
  324. # [21:03] <rafaelw_> apparently the spec says name, but both of us implemented localName.
  325. # [21:03] <smaug____> yes
  326. # [21:03] <rafaelw_> and my question is: isn't that potentially ambiguous for XML?
  327. # [21:03] <smaug____> because localName actually makes sense ;)
  328. # [21:03] <rafaelw_> i.e. you won't know which attribute changed.
  329. # [21:03] <smaug____> how would it be more ambiguous than name ?
  330. # [21:04] <rafaelw_> if an element has foo:bar & foo2:bar and you get told that 'bar' changed.
  331. # [21:04] <smaug____> you need to check namespaceuri + localName
  332. # [21:04] <rafaelw_> i'm assuming that namespaceURI would be the same for both foo:bar and foo2:bar.
  333. # [21:05] <rafaelw_> maybe i'm missunderstanding how this all works. it looks to me like there are three things: namespaceURI, prefix and localName
  334. # [21:05] <rafaelw_> where name == prefix:localName
  335. # [21:07] <rafaelw_> smaug___: am I misunderstanding something?
  336. # [21:08] <smaug____> I don't think so
  337. # [21:08] <smaug____> :)
  338. # [21:08] <smaug____> rafaelw_: remember, namespaced attributes may not always have a prefix
  339. # [21:08] <rafaelw_> can the example i gave above occur?
  340. # [21:09] <smaug____> I would assume no, but I'm not actually sure
  341. # [21:10] <smaug____> rafaelw_: not possible http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#uniqAttrs
  342. # [21:10] <rafaelw_> you assume it doesn't currently, or it *can't*.
  343. # [21:11] <smaug____> foo:bar and foo2:bar where foo and foo2 are prefixes for the same namespace isn't possible
  344. # [21:13] <rafaelw_> i see.
  345. # [21:14] <rafaelw_> i get it know.
  346. # [21:14] <rafaelw_> thank you. ok, I agree. localName seems like the right thing.
  347. # [21:18] <rafaelw_> do we need a bug to change to spec to say that MutationRecord.name reports localName only?
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  350. # [21:22] <smaug____> rafaelw_: I assume the spec would need to be changed in order to fix that that attributeFilter too
  351. # [21:23] <smaug____> not sure if annevk prefer separate bugs
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  354. # [21:25] <smaug____> rafaelw_: btw, is the GC handling I proposed ok to you ?
  355. # [21:25] <annevk> it still seems wrong to me to standardize on local name given that most APIs around non-namespaced attributes care about qualified name
  356. # [21:25] <annevk> e.g. Attr.name, setAttribute(), getAttribute(), hasAttribute(), etc.
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  358. # [21:28] <rafaelw_> smaug___: yp. GC handling is right. It's what we implemented (though we didn't have tests and it turns out we had a bug -- which is now fixed).
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  369. # [21:36] <Hixie> scott_gonzalez, TabAtkins: thanks, will consider those points
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  376. # [21:40] <sicking> rafaelw_: looking at attributeName + attributeNamespace should make it unambiguous
  377. # [21:40] <sicking> rafaelw_: sorry, i was unclear. We gecko only looks at localName + namespace of attributes
  378. # [21:40] <sicking> rafaelw_: what we don't look at is the name (== localName + prefix)
  379. # [21:40] <sicking> rafaelw_: looking at the name is generally more a convenience thing, since it's a single string trying to describe a tuple
  380. # [21:41] <sicking> rafaelw_: but it's more error prone since it breaks down if someone is using different prefixes than you think they are
  381. # [21:42] <sicking> rafaelw_: in other words, I think the behavior webkit and gecko has implemented is better than what the spec does since it's less error prone in all cases, and only harder to use in extremely rare edge cases
  382. # [21:46] <rafaelw_> i get it now. thanks.
  383. # [21:46] <rafaelw_> i agree.
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  386. # [22:03] <sicking> rafaelw_: cool
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  406. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> Hm. If you were writing a parser for CSS, for a spec, would you do it as a flat tokenization phase followed by a full tree-build phase, or a more intelligent tokenization phase that handles some elements of the syntax, followed by a somewhat light tokenization phase?
  407. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> s/light tokenization/lighter tree-building/
  408. # [23:23] <TabAtkins> Basically I'm wondering if I should handle CSS's rule that statements/blocks can't end while there's an unmatched ([{ on the stack at the tokenizer or the tree-builder level.
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  411. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> Hrm. I think I should do the flat tokenization approach, which means rewriting some things.
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  414. # [23:41] <Hixie> TabAtkins: imho the quicker you move things from dealing with characters and strings to something more abstract, the better, so i'd go with a light tokeniser at the top that turns things into tokens, and then some sort of processor on top of that to get something structured
  415. # [23:42] <Hixie> TabAtkins: but that's just because i like dealing with strongly typed tokens more than with strings and characters :-)
  416. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I think you're right. Having to switch levels between raw characters and tokens is annoying.
  417. # [23:43] <Hixie> also don't forget you can have multiple levels, not just two
  418. # [23:44] <Hixie> like, one level to get tokens, one to wrap the tokens up into nested blocks, and then finally one to actually process the blocks
  419. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> It means the tokenizer has to do a bit more work in some cases, because I have much less contextual knowledge (I can't just say "oh, you're starting a selector. consume until you see '{' or EOF.)
  420. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  421. # [23:44] <Hixie> yeah some of your tokens might be a bit special
  422. # [23:44] <Hixie> in CSS it's not so bad though because the escaping is the same everywhere and there's little ambiguity iirc
  423. # [23:45] <Hixie> e.g. an ident is an ident everywhere, whether it's a tag name or a property name or a media query type
  424. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  425. # [23:45] <Hixie> (might be some exceptions but i can't think of any)
  426. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> Selectors are... weird.
  427. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> I think I need to parse ".foo" as a DELIM followed by an IDENT. :/
  428. # [23:46] <Hixie> can't you do almost everything using only the tokens ident, punctuation ([, (, {, :, +, >, spaces, etc), strings ("...", '...'), and comments (/*...*/)?
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  430. # [23:46] <Hixie> oh and numbers
  431. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> Yeah, maybe.
  432. # [23:47] <Hixie> so the tokeniser can do \unescaping
  433. # [23:47] <Hixie> i dunno i'm saying this all from memory :-)
  434. # [23:47] <Hixie> anywho
  435. # [23:47] <TabAtkins> I want to be a touch smarter to I'll directly get PERCENTAGE and DIMENSION rather than NUMBER + IDENT, but basically yeah.
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  438. # [23:48] <Hixie> you need context for that iirc
  439. # [23:48] <Hixie> consider font: 1em 1em;
  440. # [23:49] <Hixie> which is equivalent to font: initial; font-size: 1em; font-family: "1em";
  441. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> Nah, that's fine actually. font-family parses a bunch of idents. We regularized that last year.
  442. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> No special parsing rule there.
  443. # [23:49] <Hixie> really? font: 1em 1em is invalid now?
  444. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> I think it might allow numbers/dimensions too.
  445. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> The point is that font-family doesn't require anythign special until you actually parse the declaration itself.
  446. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> No special bheavior is needed at the lower levels.
  447. # [23:50] <Hixie> my point is that you have to treat "font:1em 1.0em" and "font:1em 1em" differently
  448. # [23:50] <Hixie> but i might be wrong i guess :-)
  449. # [23:50] <Hixie> should be easy to test what browsers do now that they support @font-face
  450. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> Ah, yes, it's all idents.
  451. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> font-family: 1em; is now invalid.
  452. # [23:52] * Joins: KillerX_ (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-blvfzrdsmbnoeicb)
  453. # [23:53] * Joins: twisted` (~twisted@p5DDBB3E4.dip.t-dialin.net)
  454. # [23:54] <Hixie> good to know
  455. # [23:54] <Hixie> i wonder who implements that :-)
  456. # [23:54] <Hixie> webkit gets it right
  457. # [23:55] <Hixie> gecko too
  458. # [23:55] <Hixie> nice!
  459. # [23:56] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-cpnaxrtvurvwlpdg) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  460. # [23:56] * KillerX_ is now known as KillerX
  461. # [23:57] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@60.234.54.74)
  462. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it was tracked in the CSS2.1 testsuite once we made the change, so people should have adjusted quickly.
  463. # [23:58] * Quits: gwicke (~gabriel@212.255.28.33) (Quit: Bye!)
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  466. # Session Close: Tue Apr 10 00:00:00 2012

The end :)