/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-04-12 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 12 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:09] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.245.89.85)
  4. # [00:14] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@frbg-4d0285fa.pool.mediaWays.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  5. # [00:18] * Quits: gwicke (~gabriel@212.255.28.33) (Quit: Bye!)
  6. # [00:30] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  7. # [00:31] * ojan is now known as ojan_coding
  8. # [00:35] * Joins: manu-db (~msporny@digitalbazaar.com)
  9. # [00:35] * Quits: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  10. # [00:45] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:51ff:cabd:dcd6:47ae) (Quit: ap)
  11. # [00:46] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@2002:55e5:dbb7:0:4c70:8fcd:c68e:c36b) (Quit: tomasf)
  12. # [00:55] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-mvkazegthgcpidjx) (Remote host closed the connection)
  13. # [00:55] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-tbqdhbcmuwdzowdd)
  14. # [00:56] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-pjpwnskhoogfklif)
  15. # [00:56] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-148-108.dynamic.telemach.ba) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  16. # [00:58] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.245.89.85) (Quit: weinig)
  17. # [01:03] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-tbqdhbcmuwdzowdd) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  18. # [01:03] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-xbricqscagkmjlxy)
  19. # [01:06] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.245.89.85)
  20. # [01:10] * Quits: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  21. # [01:10] * Joins: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  22. # [01:10] * Quits: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Changing host)
  23. # [01:10] * Joins: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
  24. # [01:13] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@c-71-202-165-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: heading to the office)
  25. # [01:18] * Quits: Necrathex (~Necrathex@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl) (Quit: Leaving)
  26. # [01:21] * Quits: beverloo (peter@nat/google/x-kwwedrwnplgjbgej) (Read error: No route to host)
  27. # [01:24] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  28. # [01:28] <hober> deafening response :)
  29. # [01:32] <Velmont> As always ;-)
  30. # [01:34] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.245.89.85) (Quit: weinig)
  31. # [01:34] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Quit: leaving)
  32. # [01:35] * Joins: Yuhong (~chatzilla@76.178.171.153)
  33. # [01:41] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.245.89.85)
  34. # [01:42] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:224:d7ff:fef0:8d90)
  35. # [01:42] * Joins: schnoomac (~schnoodle@melbourne.99cluster.com)
  36. # [01:45] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.245.89.85) (Client Quit)
  37. # [01:46] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  38. # [01:47] <zewt> googling specs is becoming useless; 'site:whatwg.org/specs "structured clone"' apparently no longer even returns http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-dom-interfaces.html
  39. # [01:50] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-ftrgiarqbsrikkkv) (Quit: KillerX)
  40. # [01:53] * Joins: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  41. # [01:55] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Remote host closed the connection)
  42. # [01:57] * Quits: nesta_ (~nesta_@57.Red-88-11-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  43. # [01:58] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@101.109.239.100) (Quit: Leaving)
  44. # [02:03] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.212.155.45)
  45. # [02:07] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@2620:101:8003:200:44f8:eb5c:6cd:3106) (Quit: tantek)
  46. # [02:11] * Joins: weinig_ (~weinig@17.245.89.85)
  47. # [02:12] * Quits: twisted` (~twisted@p5DDBB5D0.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  48. # [02:13] * Joins: twisted` (~twisted@p5DDBA457.dip.t-dialin.net)
  49. # [02:14] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.212.155.45) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  50. # [02:14] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  51. # [02:16] <Hixie> zewt: you're making your life too complicated. just googled [structured clone], no site: operator, no quotes, and the first hit for me is the whatwg spec.
  52. # [02:16] <Hixie> admittedly, the wrong page of it :-)
  53. # [02:17] <Hixie> but that's what "find in page" and the single page version are for is for
  54. # [02:17] <Hixie> s/is for//
  55. # [02:18] <zewt> Hixie: my first hit is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/urls.html, which is entirely wrong
  56. # [02:18] <zewt> the entire reason i'm searching is to avoid destroying my browser with the single page spec. heh
  57. # [02:19] <Hixie> use a better browser :-)
  58. # [02:19] <zewt> there are no browsers that can quickly load that. heh
  59. # [02:20] <Hixie> i leave it open in a tab in chrome all the time with no problems
  60. # [02:20] <zewt> i think it's entirely reasonable to expect "site:whatwg.org/specs structured clone" to find the right page :) (and it used to!)
  61. # [02:20] <zewt> no idea what changed
  62. # [02:20] <Hixie> oh i'm not saying it shouldn't work :-)
  63. # [02:21] <ginger> yay! modal dialogs!
  64. # [02:29] * Quits: jondong (~jondong@123.126.22.58) (Remote host closed the connection)
  65. # [02:34] * Joins: onr (u5726@nginx/adept/pdpc.active.evet)
  66. # [02:37] * Quits: sarro (~sarro@i5E865EBB.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  67. # [02:37] * Joins: sarro (~sarro@i5E865188.versanet.de)
  68. # [02:37] * Quits: sarro (~sarro@i5E865188.versanet.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  69. # [02:38] * Joins: sarro (~sarro@i5E865188.versanet.de)
  70. # [02:42] * Quits: tndrH (~Rob@adsl-77-86-58-134.karoo.kcom.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  71. # [02:44] * Quits: machine2 (~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  72. # [02:46] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-porcqmsfhnwgrzyo) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  73. # [02:48] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@c-69-181-124-51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  74. # [02:49] * Joins: machine2 (~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net)
  75. # [02:49] * Quits: jsbell (jsbell@nat/google/x-mpdxoxmgcrawrjtm) (Quit: There's no place like home...)
  76. # [02:53] * Quits: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B05DE47.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  77. # [02:53] <Yuhong> Also horrible: using "standard-compliance" when "boat anchor" is meant.
  78. # [02:55] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@p15181-obmd01.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  79. # [02:57] * Joins: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B135994.dip.t-dialin.net)
  80. # [02:59] * Joins: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  81. # [03:06] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.245.89.85) (Quit: weinig)
  82. # [03:13] * Quits: pablof (~pablof@144.189.101.1) (Quit: ^z)
  83. # [03:18] * Joins: chriseppstein (~chrisepps@99-6-85-4.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
  84. # [03:20] * Joins: jondong (~jondong@123.126.22.58)
  85. # [03:20] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@c-69-181-124-51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: tantek)
  86. # [03:21] * Quits: tonsofpcs (~tonsofpcs@cpe-72-230-192-8.stny.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  87. # [03:21] * Joins: tonsofpcs (~tonsofpcs@cpe-72-230-192-8.stny.res.rr.com)
  88. # [03:25] * Quits: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB1D6E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  89. # [03:25] * Joins: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB1DF4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  90. # [03:26] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@c-69-181-124-51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  91. # [03:26] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.245.89.85)
  92. # [03:27] * Quits: tonsofpcs (~tonsofpcs@cpe-72-230-192-8.stny.res.rr.com) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  93. # [03:28] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.245.89.85) (Client Quit)
  94. # [03:29] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@c-69-181-124-51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  95. # [03:32] * Joins: tonsofpcs (~tonsofpcs@cpe-72-230-192-8.stny.res.rr.com)
  96. # [03:41] * Quits: Yuhong (~chatzilla@76.178.171.153) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356])
  97. # [03:47] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  98. # [03:53] * Quits: [tm] (~MikeSmith@sideshowbarker.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  99. # [03:58] * Joins: [tm] (~MikeSmith@sideshowbarker.net)
  100. # [04:00] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@c-69-181-124-51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  101. # [04:00] * Quits: malcolmva (~malcolmva@pool-74-108-142-22.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  102. # [04:00] * ojan_coding is now known as ojan_away
  103. # [04:00] * Quits: sarro (~sarro@i5E865188.versanet.de)
  104. # [04:02] * Joins: malcolmva (~malcolmva@pool-74-108-142-22.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
  105. # [04:04] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-pjpwnskhoogfklif) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  106. # [04:05] * Quits: malcolmva (~malcolmva@pool-74-108-142-22.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  107. # [04:07] <zewt> if i hear one more person that should know better claim that "#! breaks the web" ...
  108. # [04:10] <heycam> twitter.com/#!/bin/sh
  109. # [04:18] * Joins: malcolmva (~malcolmva@pool-74-108-142-22.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
  110. # [05:02] * Joins: zoranc (~zoranc@216-19-180-105.dyn.novuscom.net)
  111. # [05:04] * Quits: esc_ (~esc_ape@178.115.248.84.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  112. # [05:05] * Quits: jondong (~jondong@123.126.22.58) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  113. # [05:07] * Joins: jondong (~jondong@123.126.22.58)
  114. # [05:11] * Joins: niloy (~niloy@61.12.96.242)
  115. # [05:12] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-xbricqscagkmjlxy) (Quit: rniwa)
  116. # [05:17] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
  117. # [05:18] * Quits: jondong (~jondong@123.126.22.58) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  118. # [05:21] <onr> lol'd
  119. # [05:21] <onr> iirc, google requires #! to crawl ajaxed pages
  120. # [05:25] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  121. # [05:28] * Joins: lumely_ (~lumely@dhcp2-235.slis.tsukuba.ac.jp)
  122. # [05:28] * Joins: jondong (~jondong@123.126.22.58)
  123. # [05:28] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com)
  124. # [05:29] * Quits: lumely (~lumely@dhcp2-235.slis.tsukuba.ac.jp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  125. # [05:39] * Joins: izhak (~izhak@213.87.241.169)
  126. # [05:43] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@c-69-181-124-51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: tantek)
  127. # [05:48] * Quits: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com) (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6-dev)
  128. # [05:49] * Quits: jondong (~jondong@123.126.22.58) (Remote host closed the connection)
  129. # [05:49] * Joins: jondong (~jondong@123.126.22.58)
  130. # [05:58] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  131. # [06:04] * Quits: ginger (~Adium@2401:fa00::72cd:60ff:fea8:8d57) (Quit: Leaving.)
  132. # [06:07] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@mae0536d0.tmodns.net)
  133. # [06:12] * Joins: skylamer` (cgskylamer@78.90.213.55)
  134. # [06:15] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-152-4.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  135. # [06:37] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241)
  136. # [06:42] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YZKMMMCIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  137. # [06:47] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@FL1-119-243-157-97.tky.mesh.ad.jp)
  138. # [07:04] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@mae0536d0.tmodns.net) (Quit: tantek)
  139. # [07:06] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  140. # [07:10] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@mae0536d0.tmodns.net)
  141. # [07:18] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@mae0536d0.tmodns.net) (Quit: tantek)
  142. # [07:20] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@mae0536d0.tmodns.net)
  143. # [07:24] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com)
  144. # [07:24] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
  145. # [07:25] * Joins: nesta_ (~nesta_@113.Red-88-30-34.staticIP.rima-tde.net)
  146. # [07:25] * Quits: nesta_ (~nesta_@113.Red-88-30-34.staticIP.rima-tde.net) (Client Quit)
  147. # [07:30] * Quits: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  148. # [07:33] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@mae0536d0.tmodns.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  149. # [07:39] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:224:d7ff:fef0:8d90) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-4.1450hg.fc15 [XULRunner 10.0.1/20120216115618])
  150. # [07:44] * Joins: nattokirai (~nattokira@rtr.mozilla.or.jp)
  151. # [07:58] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YZKMMMCIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  152. # [07:58] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YZKMMMCIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  153. # [08:10] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  154. # [08:18] <annevk> every Typed Array thread ends up with lots of email
  155. # [08:18] <annevk> but I guess as long as people don't expect me to read through it all, I'm good
  156. # [08:19] * Joins: dirkpennings (~dirkpenni@90-145-26-140.bbserv.nl)
  157. # [08:24] <heycam> you need an TypedArrayThreadView to show you just the important ones
  158. # [08:24] <annevk> my filter is just reading what bz writes
  159. # [08:24] <annevk> and glenn
  160. # [08:24] <annevk> well zewt
  161. # [08:25] <heycam> good filter
  162. # [08:26] <annevk> per my filter we're going to change send() to only take ArrayBufferView
  163. # [08:26] <annevk> but responseType = "arraybuffer" is perfectly acceptable
  164. # [08:28] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-919ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  165. # [08:30] * Quits: twisted` (~twisted@p5DDBA457.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  166. # [08:30] <annevk> btw hsivonen, do you still think we should change it to "full screen" given that Mozilla now names everything "fullscreen" (modulo the API)
  167. # [08:31] <zcorpan> Hixie: if scripting is disabled, should <form method=dialog> submit anyway? why is it called "dialog"?
  168. # [08:32] <Hixie> it's called dialog because it closes dialogs
  169. # [08:32] <Hixie> and if you want to support script-disabled cases, then don't use it, just cancel the submit even
  170. # [08:32] <Hixie> t
  171. # [08:32] <annevk> does create a weird asymmetry with XMLHttpRequest where method exclusively means HTTP method
  172. # [08:32] <Hixie> (or whatever it is you have to do)
  173. # [08:33] <annevk> but action="about:dialog" seems somewhat ugly
  174. # [08:33] * Joins: nesta_ (~nesta_@37.Red-81-36-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net)
  175. # [08:34] <nesta_> good day! :)
  176. # [08:34] <annevk> good morning
  177. # [08:34] <Hixie> annevk: using action="" would mean you couldn't do legacy fallback
  178. # [08:34] <annevk> ah yeah, I saw you mentioning that
  179. # [08:35] <Hixie> not that i think anyone will really ever do that, but anyway
  180. # [08:38] <Hixie> abarth: btw the table at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#browsing-context-names may be of interest
  181. # [08:38] <Hixie> abarth: though it doesn't answer your question in this case
  182. # [08:38] <Hixie> abarth: since you're not targetting anything, you're just starting a navigation
  183. # [08:38] <abarth> looking
  184. # [08:39] <abarth> this is a nice table
  185. # [08:39] <abarth> i will convert it to a test suite
  186. # [08:39] <Hixie> heh
  187. # [08:40] <Hixie> abarth: that table suggests that seamless overrides sandbox, actually
  188. # [08:40] <Hixie> (that table is non-normative btw)
  189. # [08:40] <abarth> is my case different from "none specified, for links and form submissions "
  190. # [08:40] <abarth> ?
  191. # [08:40] * Joins: chayin_ (quassel@nat/nokia/x-cqtijxgexpziendh)
  192. # [08:41] <Hixie> ok, i've now read the spec
  193. # [08:41] <Hixie> the sandboxing override happens _before_ the seamless redirect
  194. # [08:41] <Hixie> so the table is correct
  195. # [08:41] <Hixie> and window.location = foo is equivalent to the top row, but scripted
  196. # [08:42] <abarth> so, we should navigate the master
  197. # [08:42] <Hixie> right
  198. # [08:42] <Hixie> if scripting is enabled
  199. # [08:42] <abarth> thanks!
  200. # [08:42] <abarth> yeah
  201. # [08:42] <abarth> will fix
  202. # [08:42] <abarth> I'm glad I asked
  203. # [08:42] * Joins: chayin__ (quassel@nat/nokia/x-nzxipuzehuddwkwy)
  204. # [08:42] <Hixie> i'll reply on the list as well in case anyone else cares
  205. # [08:43] * Quits: chayin (quassel@nat/nokia/x-jbtbvduuuefjxnva) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  206. # [08:44] <Hixie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
  207. # [08:44] <Hixie> that's right, no?
  208. # [08:44] <Hixie> wtf
  209. # [08:44] <abarth> I think so
  210. # [08:45] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  211. # [08:45] <Hixie> why the hell is apache stripping my charset
  212. # [08:46] <Hixie> oh, it's not
  213. # [08:46] <Hixie> ok now i'm even more confused
  214. # [08:46] * Quits: chayin_ (quassel@nat/nokia/x-cqtijxgexpziendh) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  215. # [08:47] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  216. # [08:47] <hsivonen> should I reward the use of a bug tracker as a helpdesk by giving the answer: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=918 ?
  217. # [08:48] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  218. # [08:48] * Quits: chriseppstein (~chrisepps@99-6-85-4.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: chriseppstein)
  219. # [08:51] <zcorpan> i'd say something like "don't use bugzilla for this. use <appropriate forum> instead. but the answer is <foo>. RESOLVED INVALID"
  220. # [08:53] <Hixie> or just create a component for helpdesk questions, they're gonna come anyway :-)
  221. # [08:55] <Hixie> gah, i hate all this crap in libraries and languages that tries to hide the difference between byte strings and unicode strings
  222. # [09:03] <annevk> what do you mean?
  223. # [09:05] <Hixie> like, if you read something from the console, it should just be a byte stream, and it should be impossible to concatenate it to a string "foo"
  224. # [09:05] <Hixie> because "foo" is a bunch of characters, not a byte stream
  225. # [09:05] <Hixie> unless you have an encoding to use to convert the byte stream to a character stream, it should remain a byte stream
  226. # [09:09] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YZKMMMCIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Reconnecting…)
  227. # [09:09] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YZKMMMCIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  228. # [09:10] * Quits: machine2 (~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  229. # [09:11] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-152-4.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  230. # [09:12] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@50-76-55-246-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  231. # [09:24] * Quits: hober (~ted@unaffiliated/hober) (Remote host closed the connection)
  232. # [09:28] <zcorpan> so i guess websocket needs to s/ArrayBuffer/ArrayBufferView/ as well
  233. # [09:29] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-119-243-157-97.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  234. # [09:29] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com)
  235. # [09:32] * zcorpan finds out that the feedback form in the websocket spec on dev.w3.org doesn't work
  236. # [09:33] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@50-76-55-246-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: tantek)
  237. # [09:35] * Joins: gwicke (~gabriel@212.255.28.33)
  238. # [09:39] * Joins: lar_zzz (~lar_zzz@business-088-079-143-185.static.arcor-ip.net)
  239. # [09:40] * Joins: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@161.212.140.88.rev.sfr.net)
  240. # [09:42] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  241. # [09:43] <annevk> who are involved in Fullscreen for the various browsers?
  242. # [09:43] <annevk> oh well
  243. # [09:43] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16709
  244. # [09:43] <heycam> annevk, chris pearce for us
  245. # [09:44] <annevk> ah
  246. # [09:44] <annevk> thanks, addedh im
  247. # [09:45] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  248. # [09:52] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-112.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  249. # [09:53] * Quits: schnoomac (~schnoodle@melbourne.99cluster.com) (Quit: schnoomac)
  250. # [09:53] <annevk> bz being too short for W3C Bugzilla sucks
  251. # [09:53] <annevk> they could at least special case him
  252. # [09:53] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@YZKMMMCIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  253. # [09:55] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YZKMMMCIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  254. # [09:56] * smaug is now known as smaug____
  255. # [09:57] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  256. # [09:57] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  257. # [09:57] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.96.242)
  258. # [09:59] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net)
  259. # [09:59] * Quits: lumely_ (~lumely@dhcp2-235.slis.tsukuba.ac.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  260. # [10:04] <annevk> thanks foolip for http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-zh/2012Apr/0007.html and other emails!
  261. # [10:04] <annevk> foolip: I'm following along with Google Translate :)
  262. # [10:04] <foolip> annevk, as you might have guessed, they're a bit worried about other Big5 extensions
  263. # [10:05] * foolip checks how well Google Translate understands his Chinese...
  264. # [10:05] <zcorpan> foolip: any progress on the gb data?
  265. # [10:05] <annevk> I looked for Taiwanese browser market share, and it's IE + Chrome, then Firefox
  266. # [10:05] <foolip> zcorpan, no, I haven't had time yet
  267. # [10:05] <annevk> Firefox having like 10%
  268. # [10:05] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-148-108.dynamic.telemach.ba)
  269. # [10:05] <annevk> and IE about 60%
  270. # [10:06] <foolip> annevk, the only think I could see making a difference is if there is some font using PUA that is installed on virtually all Taiwanese windows machines
  271. # [10:06] <annevk> which seems to me that if those pages use Firefox extensions, they're not aimed at the majority
  272. # [10:06] <annevk> foolip: true
  273. # [10:06] <foolip> But so far I haven't heard of such a thing, so I hope it is not common...
  274. # [10:07] <annevk> foolip: Chrome does match IE pretty closely for PUA
  275. # [10:07] <foolip> Indeed, which is why it could potentially be a problem.
  276. # [10:08] <annevk> god I hate PUA
  277. # [10:08] <annevk> so much
  278. # [10:09] <foolip> I hope we succeed in killing it for Big5
  279. # [10:09] <foolip> Are there other encodings that use it?
  280. # [10:09] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  281. # [10:11] <zcorpan> utf-8? :-)
  282. # [10:11] <foolip> Yeah, of course :)
  283. # [10:11] <annevk> macintosh is the only index
  284. # [10:11] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/index-macintosh.txt
  285. # [10:12] <annevk> 112 0xF8FF  (<Private Use>)
  286. # [10:12] <foolip> Huh, what's it usually used for? Can it be destroyed?
  287. # [10:13] <annevk> it's Apple's logo
  288. # [10:13] <annevk> it's used all over
  289. # [10:13] <annevk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Use_(Unicode)#Example_code_point_U.2BF8FF
  290. # [10:15] <foolip> Oh well, nothing to do about it I guess
  291. # [10:15] <zcorpan> that code point should just be grandfathered in unicode to become a proper character
  292. # [10:15] <annevk> the more scary trend is these icon fonts that use PUA all over
  293. # [10:15] <annevk> but when copy and pasted lose all original meaning
  294. # [10:16] <annevk> the technique has awesome benefits such as icons scaling with the text, etc.
  295. # [10:16] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  296. # [10:16] <annevk> but as far as semantics goes it's spacer gifs and tables for layout all over again
  297. # [10:17] <zcorpan> icon fonts should use ligatures and real words
  298. # [10:17] <zcorpan> like a ligature for "twitter" being an icon
  299. # [10:18] <hsivonen> zcorpan: indeed
  300. # [10:18] <foolip> zcorpan, do you mean that the Apple logo should be added to a new code point, or that U+F8FF should be redefined?
  301. # [10:18] <zcorpan> foolip: the latter
  302. # [10:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan: does OpenType place limits on the number of code points that can ligate into one glyph?
  303. # [10:20] <zcorpan> don't think so, there's one ligature that's a whole word in some font. don't recall what it is
  304. # [10:21] <foolip> zcorpan, I don't disagree, but Unicode politics seem pretty hard to navigate
  305. # [10:22] <hsivonen> I've seen whole-word ligatures in AAT fonts but I haven't seen them in OpenType fonts
  306. # [10:23] <zcorpan> oh. i don't recall whether this was OpenType or not
  307. # [10:23] <hsivonen> AAT Zapfino has a ligature for "Zapfino" and, IIRC, some AAT fonts when set to maximum ligatures ligate "Apple" to the Apple logo
  308. # [10:23] <zcorpan> Zapfino was probably what i was thinking of
  309. # [10:35] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai)
  310. # [10:40] * Quits: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@161.212.140.88.rev.sfr.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  311. # [10:42] * Quits: Workshiva (~Dashiva@74.125.57.33) (Remote host closed the connection)
  312. # [10:43] <kennyluck> Does anyone know why the CSS specs tend to have very few statements of conformance requirement? They are usually full of sloppy statements of facts.
  313. # [10:43] <annevk> writing specs is hard
  314. # [10:44] <annevk> doing so in committee doubly so
  315. # [10:44] * kennyluck was using http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1140242962&count=1 to categorize statements.
  316. # [10:44] <kennyluck> Well, using "must" or not seems more like a cultural problem than a technical one.
  317. # [10:45] <annevk> you don't use "must" in statements of fact
  318. # [10:46] <Ms2ger> Yeah, CSS doesn't bother with conformance requirements
  319. # [10:46] <kennyluck> annevk, I know. What I am saying is that you usually see fewer 'must's in CSS specs.
  320. # [10:47] <annevk> in terms of quality CSS is somewhere in the middle between HTML4 and HTML, erring towards HTML4 if not many people are looking or if they give up on the hard problems when people are looking
  321. # [10:48] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5d84fd3c.pool.mediaWays.net)
  322. # [10:48] <annevk> they're adding a bunch of new layout modules without understanding table layout
  323. # [10:49] <annevk> that seems irresponsible to me, but nobody cared much when I brought it up
  324. # [10:49] <Ms2ger> New stuff is more fun than old stuff, or so I hear
  325. # [10:49] <annevk> no man, legacy encodings are the shit :)
  326. # [10:50] <Ms2ger> s/the// :)
  327. # [10:50] <annevk> :p
  328. # [10:53] * Quits: lar_zzz (~lar_zzz@business-088-079-143-185.static.arcor-ip.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  329. # [10:53] * Joins: lar_zzz (~lar_zzz@business-088-079-143-185.static.arcor-ip.net)
  330. # [10:53] * Joins: Workshiva (~Dashiva@74.125.57.33)
  331. # [10:55] * Quits: tonsofpcs (~tonsofpcs@cpe-72-230-192-8.stny.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  332. # [10:59] * Joins: Von_Davidicus (~IceChat7@173.210.203.196)
  333. # [10:59] * Joins: lar_zzz1 (~lar_zzz@business-088-079-143-185.static.arcor-ip.net)
  334. # [10:59] * Quits: lar_zzz (~lar_zzz@business-088-079-143-185.static.arcor-ip.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  335. # [11:00] * Parts: Von_Davidicus (~IceChat7@173.210.203.196)
  336. # [11:01] * Joins: Von_Davidicus_ (~IceChat7@173.210.203.196)
  337. # [11:02] * Joins: lar_zzz (~lar_zzz@business-088-079-143-185.static.arcor-ip.net)
  338. # [11:02] * Quits: lar_zzz1 (~lar_zzz@business-088-079-143-185.static.arcor-ip.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  339. # [11:02] * Joins: tonsofpcs (~tonsofpcs@cpe-72-230-192-8.stny.res.rr.com)
  340. # [11:02] <Von_Davidicus_> Validation question: How do I get the HTML5 validator to recognize that I'm using XHTML5, and thus the XML processing instruction isn't an error?
  341. # [11:03] <annevk> by not using text/html as MIME type
  342. # [11:03] <annevk> but since you didn't do that yourself, it's probably best to stick to HTML
  343. # [11:05] * Joins: beverloo (peter@nat/google/x-yrxylgjokqmgfvqu)
  344. # [11:10] <Von_Davidicus_> Must be the way I'm validating it (by file upload)
  345. # [11:10] * Joins: mishunov (~spliter@77.88.72.162)
  346. # [11:10] <annevk> file extension?
  347. # [11:11] <Von_Davidicus_> .xhtml
  348. # [11:12] * Von_Davidicus_ has a habit of using that file extension.
  349. # [11:12] * Quits: mishunov (~spliter@77.88.72.162) (Client Quit)
  350. # [11:13] * Joins: kenneth_ (kenneth@nat/nokia/x-khrpnnlaesnigyhg)
  351. # [11:14] * Quits: richt (richt@nat/opera/x-rekpiismrpqfxuuk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  352. # [11:14] * Joins: mishunov (~spliter@77.88.72.162)
  353. # [11:14] * Quits: kennet (kenneth@nat/nokia/x-rjhlgvwilopyawyj) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  354. # [11:16] * Joins: kenneth__ (kenneth@nat/nokia/x-hfanahxgjrlhjctb)
  355. # [11:16] <annevk> dunno then
  356. # [11:17] <annevk> you could set a Parser override just in case
  357. # [11:17] <annevk> to XML that is
  358. # [11:17] * Joins: richt (~richt@guest.opera.com)
  359. # [11:17] <annevk> assuming you're using http://validator.nu/
  360. # [11:17] * Quits: kenneth_ (kenneth@nat/nokia/x-khrpnnlaesnigyhg) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  361. # [11:18] <Von_Davidicus_> Whoops, my bad. I had changed the extension to .html.
  362. # [11:18] * Von_Davidicus_ switches file back to "Nerd Mode" :)
  363. # [11:20] * Joins: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@161.212.140.88.rev.sfr.net)
  364. # [11:26] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p5B326B4E.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  365. # [11:27] <kennyluck> i think asking Firefox to drop certain big5 mapping is just like asking browsers to drop support for their proprietary CSS extension that is already used by some sites. It's neither beneficial to Firefox as a browser vendor nor to its users.
  366. # [11:28] <annevk> Firefox currently renders several big5 encoded sites incorrectly
  367. # [11:29] <Von_Davidicus_> Before I publish a statement, may I ask your opinions as to its accuracy?
  368. # [11:31] <Von_Davidicus_> I'm doing some writing on website coding. The statement is: "XHTML 2.0 was virtually booed off the web."
  369. # [11:31] <kennyluck> You can try data:application/xhtml+xml as a workaround.
  370. # [11:33] <annevk> kennyluck: also, fyi, Firefox has dropped proprietary extensions in the past to make the web better
  371. # [11:33] <annevk> kennyluck: but I'm curious what data you have that suggests Firefox's big5 behavior is better than that of other browsers because all the data I've looked at suggests otherwise
  372. # [11:37] <kennyluck> annevk, because it displays the Web archive of a BBS I visited everyday correctly → http://www.ptt.cc/bbs/C_Chat/M.1334222500.A.047.html
  373. # [11:38] * Joins: nonge (~nonge@p5B326EE5.dip.t-dialin.net)
  374. # [11:38] <kennyluck> It gives me "いま俺の顔生涯最高にキモい自信がある" in Firefox and "俺生涯最高自信" in other browsers.
  375. # [11:40] <kennyluck> I almost never use HK sites so I might be selfish saying so though.
  376. # [11:42] <kennyluck> by the way, big5-hkscs gives "いま俺の𡟺生涯最高にキモい自信がある" which is a bit different too.
  377. # [11:42] * Quits: FACEFOX (~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  378. # [11:45] * Joins: FACEFOX (~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net)
  379. # [11:45] * Quits: FACEFOX (~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) (Max SendQ exceeded)
  380. # [11:45] <annevk> but that looks a lot closer already
  381. # [11:45] <foolip> kennyluck, how should "big5" be interpreted to fix the most number of sites?
  382. # [11:47] * Joins: FACEFOX (~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net)
  383. # [11:47] * Quits: FACEFOX (~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) (Max SendQ exceeded)
  384. # [11:47] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  385. # [11:48] * Parts: mishunov (~spliter@77.88.72.162)
  386. # [11:48] <kennyluck> foolip, I doubt we should fix that to be locale-dependent. As a non-HK person, the best for me seems to be "big5" maps to "big5-uao" in a zh-TW browser and "big5-hkscs" in a zh-HK browser.
  387. # [11:49] * Joins: FACEFOX (~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net)
  388. # [11:49] * Quits: FACEFOX (~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) (Max SendQ exceeded)
  389. # [11:49] <foolip> kennyluck, so you think it *should* be locale-dependent?
  390. # [11:50] <kennyluck> foolip, probably just like how the default encoding is specced.
  391. # [11:50] <kennyluck> Yes
  392. # [11:50] <kennyluck> (though ironically the default encoding of zh-TW Firefox is UTF-8 instead of big5, which is not following the spec.)
  393. # [11:50] * Joins: FACEFOX (~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net)
  394. # [11:51] <foolip> kennyluck, do Windows machines in Taiwan have fonts using PUA that make this work in other browsers than Firefox, and how common is that?
  395. # [11:51] <Von_Davidicus_> annevk, may I get your opinion as to the accuracy of a statement I was hoping to put into an essay about HTML?
  396. # [11:52] <kennyluck> foolip, no data from me :(
  397. # [11:53] <foolip> kennyluck, do you know if .tw sites depending on Big5-UAO are common? FWIW, I use a few Taiwan sites regularly and have not encountered this problem in Opera
  398. # [11:55] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@guest.opera.com)
  399. # [11:55] <kennyluck> foolip, no I don't think it's common. But still, there's better chance for me to visit www.ptt.cc, which is the archive of the BBS I talked about (currently 80000 people online), than any HK site ever.
  400. # [11:55] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@guest.opera.com) (Client Quit)
  401. # [11:55] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@nat/opera/x-idsupmqemygcmern)
  402. # [11:56] <foolip> kennyluck, does that site only work properly in Firefox?
  403. # [11:56] * Quits: Von_Davidicus_ (~IceChat7@173.210.203.196) (Quit: We be chillin - IceChat style)
  404. # [12:00] <kennyluck> foolip, if you mean "the Japanese is correctly rendered", then Yes. But in reality not many people use Japanese in Taiwan anyway. I visit that forum, which is for discussions around Anime (admittedly *not* the WWW archive) quite often though.
  405. # [12:00] <kennyluck> I think it just somehow reaches a point that nobody cares too much. If the site cares about compatibility, it would just use utf-8.
  406. # [12:00] * Quits: Jedi_ (~Jedi@jedi.org) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  407. # [12:01] <kennyluck> But really, displaying more characters is like rendering effects. If there's script that blocks the whole functionality of a site than it indeed sounds more serious.
  408. # [12:02] <kennyluck> s/script/script that relies on big5 decoded as big5-hkscs/
  409. # [12:03] * Joins: graememcc (~chatzilla@host86-147-203-185.range86-147.btcentralplus.com)
  410. # [12:03] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@76.8.86.25)
  411. # [12:04] * Quits: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  412. # [12:06] * Quits: richt (~richt@guest.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  413. # [12:10] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@76.8.86.25) (Quit: othermaciej)
  414. # [12:12] <annevk> kennyluck: sites written towards one browser will of course start rendering incorrectly
  415. # [12:12] <annevk> kennyluck: that's why you shouldn't code towards one browser, because browsers will typically evolve to work with most sites, rather than a few coded towards them
  416. # [12:14] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@76.8.86.25)
  417. # [12:15] <kennyluck> annevk, I think those who are knowledged about this problem would just tell you that those who create site like www.ptt.cc are not targeting specific browser, they just dump their database, which happened to be 'big5-uao' in reality, and tag the page as 'big5'.
  418. # [12:16] <kennyluck> I believe it's a fact that 'big5-uao' is more popular than 'big5-hkscs' in Taiwan, but I don't have data.
  419. # [12:16] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@76.8.86.25) (Client Quit)
  420. # [12:17] <annevk> so how does IE render those sites correctly?
  421. # [12:17] <annevk> it seems you're saying people have installed specific fonts
  422. # [12:17] <annevk> or that Firefox's market share is misrepresented maybe
  423. # [12:20] <kennyluck> annevk, I have no idea. I have no idea how many percent of Taiwanese people install the 'big5-uao' package (which is irrelevant to fonts) either.
  424. # [12:21] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com)
  425. # [12:21] <kennyluck> (Those who install the 'big5-uao' package on Windows will see 'big5' as 'big5-uao'.)
  426. # [12:22] <annevk> doesn't sound like it's irrelevant to fonts to me
  427. # [12:24] <annevk> http://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/show/1784 only mentions ptt.cc
  428. # [12:27] * Joins: twisted` (~twisted@p5DDBA457.dip.t-dialin.net)
  429. # [12:28] * Joins: Jedi_ (~Jedi@jedi.org)
  430. # [12:28] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16303 *sigh*
  431. # [12:28] * annevk goes to work on something else
  432. # [12:29] <annevk> kennyluck: do you have a reference for that package btw?
  433. # [12:30] <annevk> kennyluck: the data I've seen thus far suggests hkscs is a better mapping, with the notable exception of ptt.cc
  434. # [12:30] * Joins: mishunov (~spliter@77.88.72.162)
  435. # [12:34] <kennyluck> annevk, or to be more precise, the forums in ptt.cc that use Japanese regularly, which probably accounts for less than 5%.
  436. # [12:34] <kennyluck> The best link I can get is http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode%E8%A3%9C%E5%AE%8C%E8%A8%88%E7%95%AB .
  437. # [12:42] <Philip`> hsivonen: I believe OpenType allows ligatures matching on sequences of up to 65535 glyphs (the only limit is the uint16 in the file format)
  438. # [12:43] <Philip`> hsivonen: (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/GSUB.htm#LSF1 is the relevant thing)
  439. # [12:43] * Philip` doesn't know if any implementations are stricter than that
  440. # [12:43] <foolip> kennyluck, if ptt.cc is the only notable site that would suffer, would approaching them and asking them to fix the problem be an option?
  441. # [12:43] <annevk> kennyluck: that wikipedia page seems to suggest the Windows big5 mapping table is altered, but says nothing about newer versions of Windows
  442. # [12:46] <annevk> foolip: we should probably have a site compat issue on that
  443. # [12:46] <foolip> annevk, on Big5-UAO?
  444. # [12:46] <foolip> oh, on ptt.cc
  445. # [12:46] <foolip> I guess you mean Open the Web?
  446. # [12:46] <annevk> yeah, dunno about Unicode-at-on in general
  447. # [12:47] <foolip> annevk, I'm writing an email about this, one sec
  448. # [12:48] * Quits: timmywil (~timmywil@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  449. # [12:50] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  450. # [12:55] <annevk> oh great
  451. # [12:55] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  452. # [12:55] <annevk> so HTML says when URL encode for query gets a character that cannot be encoded a "?" is to be used instead
  453. # [12:56] <annevk> Gecko uses UTF-8 bytes instead
  454. # [12:56] <annevk> Chrome uses &#...; instead!
  455. # [12:56] <annevk> Opera follows spec
  456. # [12:56] <annevk> Safari follows Chrome
  457. # [12:57] <zcorpan> iirc the spec matches (old?) ie
  458. # [12:58] <annevk> IE9 emits raw bytes (after I changed test to use standards mode to make it work at all)
  459. # [12:58] <annevk> source code
  460. # [12:58] <annevk> <!doctype html><meta charset=tis-620><a></a><script>var a = document.getElementsByTagName("a")[0]; a.href = "?\ufffd"; alert(a.href) </script>
  461. # [12:58] <annevk> not sure what raw bytes means actually
  462. # [12:58] <annevk> the alert just had the character there
  463. # [12:59] <annevk> if I encodeURI() it I get utf-8...
  464. # [12:59] * Joins: tndrH (~Rob@adsl-77-86-58-134.karoo.kcom.com)
  465. # [12:59] <zcorpan> i guess you should try following the link and see what the server gets
  466. # [13:00] <annevk> pretty sure IE will just put raw bytes on there
  467. # [13:03] <annevk> unsolved problems from 2009 http://annevankesteren.nl/2009/03/urls
  468. # [13:03] <annevk> oh yes
  469. # [13:03] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0321.html
  470. # [13:04] <annevk> "There are some small interop issues. IE6 (not sure about newer versions) sends the query string as raw UTF-8 bytes rather than having them percent-escaped."
  471. # [13:06] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241) (Remote host closed the connection)
  472. # [13:07] * Joins: richt (richt@nat/opera/x-qkxumkifjlvwqlvr)
  473. # [13:09] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  474. # [13:10] <kennyluck> foolip, I think that's an option. I would guess not many people like this option though. Don't ask me for a reason because I truly don't know. But I think what would be more realistic and useful is to get IE people's commitment on shipping 'big5' to mean 'big5-hkscs'. Perhaps they have clear reasons for not doing so.
  475. # [13:12] <kennyluck> As my friend (Timothy Chien in the mailing list) told me, this might not be doable because IE might refuse to use anything besides the system's mapping tables.
  476. # [13:13] <annevk> hmm http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6763799/utf-8-encoding-issue-in-ie-query-parameters#comment8020739_6763799
  477. # [13:14] <annevk> sounds like this is some kind of WTF area
  478. # [13:18] <zcorpan> should we make the spec look at namespaced attributes? http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1460
  479. # [13:20] <annevk> zcorpan: because? returning null there is fine no?
  480. # [13:22] <zcorpan> we look at elements with prefixes, but not at attributes with prefixes
  481. # [13:23] <zcorpan> seems inconsistent
  482. # [13:24] <annevk> that's only so you don't have to look for xmlns attributes
  483. # [13:24] <annevk> and only at xmlns:* attributes
  484. # [13:24] <zcorpan> the spec looks at xmlns attributes
  485. # [13:25] <zcorpan> the spec even picks up xmlns="" in no namespace; maybe that's bogus
  486. # [13:25] <annevk> you previously argued to do the simplest thing possible here
  487. # [13:25] <zcorpan> yeah, i did
  488. # [13:26] <kennyluck> annevk, I did some URL in CSS testing last week too → http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Apr/0204 . I was very amused by how IE9 handles the url "%" :p
  489. # [13:27] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@FL1-119-243-157-97.tky.mesh.ad.jp)
  490. # [13:27] <zcorpan> but innerHTML uses these methods
  491. # [13:28] <zcorpan> but i guess looking at namespaced attributes is overkill
  492. # [13:30] <zcorpan> maybe innerHTML shouldn't be using these methods in the first place
  493. # [13:31] <Ms2ger> You tell me :)
  494. # [13:31] <annevk> URLs doing decoding so massively different is annoying for testing decoders
  495. # [13:32] <annevk> well, the problem is mostly IE I guess
  496. # [13:32] <annevk> I wish Microsoft hang out in an IRC channel somewhere
  497. # [13:34] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  498. # [13:34] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  499. # [13:36] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-152-4.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  500. # [13:37] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-152-4.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  501. # [13:42] <annevk> oh sweet
  502. # [13:42] <annevk> IE is the worst
  503. # [13:43] <annevk> it does indeed use "?" over the wire
  504. # [13:44] <annevk> but to script it exposes the character itself
  505. # [13:45] <annevk> so some kind of normalization happens at the network layer, whereas other browsers do normalization upfront
  506. # [13:48] <annevk> so basically testing IE would involve network loads
  507. # [13:48] <annevk> fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu
  508. # [14:05] * Quits: izhak (~izhak@213.87.241.169) (Remote host closed the connection)
  509. # [14:08] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
  510. # [14:13] <nesta_> annevk++ :)
  511. # [14:15] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@65.93.94.10)
  512. # [14:22] * Quits: lar_zzz (~lar_zzz@business-088-079-143-185.static.arcor-ip.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  513. # [14:22] * Joins: lar_zzz (~lar_zzz@business-088-079-143-185.static.arcor-ip.net)
  514. # [14:30] <zcorpan> and another quirk gets some tests http://simon.html5.org/test/quirks-mode/table-cell-width-calculation.html
  515. # [14:31] <zcorpan> time for coffee
  516. # [14:31] <hsivonen> Who has time to WONTFIX https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16711 with strong enough arguments to prevent escalation and reopening?
  517. # [14:33] <annevk> another question, who can make this fast:
  518. # [14:33] <annevk> results = []
  519. # [14:33] <annevk> for(i = 0; i < 0x10FFFF; i++) {
  520. # [14:33] <annevk> t.href = "?" + cp_str(i)
  521. # [14:33] <annevk> results.push(uhex(i) + "\t" + t.search)
  522. # [14:33] <annevk> }
  523. # [14:33] <annevk> r.textContent = results.join("\n")
  524. # [14:34] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@ad008216.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  525. # [14:34] <Ms2ger> zcorpan++
  526. # [14:36] <annevk> until 0x10000 goes fast enough, but then CPU starts spinning mad
  527. # [14:37] <zcorpan> hsivonen: how about "Or else...?" :-)
  528. # [14:39] <zcorpan> annevk: what's cp_str?
  529. # [14:39] <annevk> function cp_str (cp) {
  530. # [14:39] <annevk> if(cp < 0x10000)
  531. # [14:39] <annevk> return String.fromCharCode(cp)
  532. # [14:39] <annevk> cp -= 0x10000
  533. # [14:39] <annevk> return String.fromCharCode(0xD800 + (cp >> 10), 0xDC00 + (cp & 0x3FF))
  534. # [14:39] <annevk> }
  535. # [14:41] <Ms2ger> return String.fromCharCode(0xD800 + (cp >> 10)) + String.fromCharCode(0xDC00 + (cp & 0x3FF)), maybe?
  536. # [14:43] <annevk> that is faster?
  537. # [14:43] <annevk> hsivonen: added a comment
  538. # [14:44] <annevk> hsivonen: and resolved INVALID for good measure
  539. # [14:45] <Ms2ger> It could be, up to you to test :)
  540. # [14:47] <annevk> hmm
  541. # [14:47] <gsnedders> annevk: What browser are you testing in?
  542. # [14:48] <gsnedders> Actually, nvm, won't hit that bug anyway.
  543. # [14:48] <annevk> Firefox/Opera Next/Chrome
  544. # [14:48] <annevk> CPU is spinning mad
  545. # [14:49] * Quits: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  546. # [14:50] * Joins: [[zzz]] (~q@125.25.230.78.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net)
  547. # [14:50] <annevk> Chrome / Opera done
  548. # [14:50] <annevk> Opera responsive
  549. # [14:50] <annevk> in Chrome the page cannot really be used
  550. # [14:50] <annevk> Firefox is not done, but has some kind of responsive page
  551. # [14:51] <annevk> hmm, looks like Firefox quit at E5F33 ?%F3%A5%BC%B3
  552. # [14:51] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
  553. # [14:52] * Quits: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  554. # [14:53] * Quits: [[zz]] (~q@101.109.239.100) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  555. # [14:53] <annevk> I guess once I add a way to filter out results that encode per default error handling ("?", "&#...", URL encoded utf-8 bytes) this might be okay
  556. # [14:53] <zcorpan> annevk: maybe you can have two nested loops to generate all possible surrogate pairs
  557. # [14:53] <annevk> Internet Explorer would still not be tested but bah
  558. # [14:54] <annevk> zcorpan: seems so unlogical that simple math would be the bottleneck here
  559. # [14:54] <annevk> illogical*
  560. # [14:55] * Ms2ger points at the topic
  561. # [14:55] <foolip> kennyluck, are you sure that ptt.cc is actually purely Big5-UAO? Isn't it more likely that it's a random mix of Big5-HKSCS and Big5-UAO depending on what software/browser was used to post?
  562. # [14:55] <hsivonen> passing through bytes provided by whoever posted seems scary
  563. # [14:56] <foolip> hsivonen, indeed, but surely it's what 99% of the Web does?
  564. # [14:57] <hsivonen> 99% of the Web is scary
  565. # [14:58] * foolip nods
  566. # [14:58] <kennyluck> foolip, indeed. It would depend on what software is used to post, which this is case are telnet clients. As I said, only 5% of the sub-forums are affected by this.
  567. # [14:58] <hsivonen> if there's something good about Java, it's that it converts to UTF-16 upon input, so you don't get to pass through bytes
  568. # [14:59] <Ms2ger> That's a pretty big 'if' :)
  569. # [14:59] <foolip> kennyluck, do you have any contact with the site operators? it would be interesting to analyze a random selection of pages that use the byte sequences in question...
  570. # [15:02] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-148-108.dynamic.telemach.ba) (Read error: No route to host)
  571. # [15:02] <zcorpan> var high, low;
  572. # [15:02] <zcorpan> for (high = 0xd800; high < 0xdc00; ++high) {
  573. # [15:02] <zcorpan> for (low = 0xdc00; low < 0xe000; ++low) {
  574. # [15:02] <zcorpan> doStuff(String.fromCharCode(high, low));
  575. # [15:02] <zcorpan> }
  576. # [15:02] <zcorpan> }
  577. # [15:03] <foolip> zcorpan, was that for me?
  578. # [15:03] <zcorpan> for annevk
  579. # [15:03] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
  580. # [15:04] <kennyluck> foolip, yes. I do, actually, a friend of a friend. What would be best way to do this? Let me ask for a mail address for me. But what kind of analysis do you want to do? If you just want a random selection of the pages, the subpages of http://www.ptt.cc/bbs/C_Chat/index.html that has Japanese in it would do. Or do you want to get a list of softwares that are used to post to PTT?
  581. # [15:04] <kennyluck> I think a bunch of them are open source telnet clients.
  582. # [15:04] <kennyluck> s/for me/for you.
  583. # [15:05] <foolip> kennyluck, ideally, a list of every single page that uses any of the byte sequences that differ between hkscs and uao, but if that's hard to produce I guess a big enough random selection should allow me to find them myself
  584. # [15:06] <annevk> I thought Firefox was supposed to have a non-blocking UI?
  585. # [15:06] <foolip> kennyluck, even better would of course be to ask if they're aware of the problem and if they would be prepared to make some changes to fix it
  586. # [15:07] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@61.12.96.242) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  587. # [15:08] <kennyluck> foolip, that is… well, not very easy I would assume. It is basically a non-profit site, partly run by National Taiwan University, and I never think they actively maintain the underlying BBS software.
  588. # [15:08] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-919ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  589. # [15:08] <foolip> kennyluck, so perhaps just scraping it ourselves would be easier?
  590. # [15:09] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-919ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  591. # [15:09] <foolip> kennyluck, are there sub-forums in or about Cantonese?
  592. # [15:09] <kennyluck> foolip, good point. Yes.
  593. # [15:10] <kennyluck> It's basically a community site for everything.
  594. # [15:10] <foolip> kennyluck, do I need a special version of Windows to test if these pages display properly in non-Firefox browsers, with special font support?
  595. # [15:11] <annevk> even the U+0000 - U+007F range has some incompatible stuff, but that's due to using URLs I guess
  596. # [15:12] <kennyluck> foolip, I have no idea. I've been not using Windows for a while, but I would guess you can install the big5-uao package on every Windows. It pretty much just replaces the system's big5 encoding table, or this is what I heard.
  597. # [15:13] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-148-108.dynamic.telemach.ba)
  598. # [15:14] <foolip> kennyluck, do you have any idea where one would find this package? Googling "big5-uao" mostly finds Mozilla-related things...
  599. # [15:14] * Joins: danbri_ (~danbri@cable-146-255-148-108.dynamic.telemach.ba)
  600. # [15:14] <foolip> In any case, unless this is installed on >50% of Taiwan Windows computers, I really don't see how it could change matters much...
  601. # [15:14] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-148-108.dynamic.telemach.ba) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  602. # [15:15] <kennyluck> foolip, you can google the phrase "unicode補完計畫". This is one page teaching this → http://www.techbang.com/posts/3350-let-win7-perfect-display-japanese-web-page
  603. # [15:16] <foolip> kennyluck, ah, that's the "Unicode 補完" you mentioned in your mail (which was very helpful, thank you!)
  604. # [15:17] <kennyluck> Wow, the steps are crazy. I wonder how many people go throughout these.
  605. # [15:17] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net) (Quit: tomasf)
  606. # [15:19] <foolip> kennyluck, yeah, replacing CP950 in 18 steps really doesn't seem like something many would do...
  607. # [15:20] <annevk> that it's available does suggest the problem might be more widespread :/
  608. # [15:21] <foolip> kennyluck, also, the example used on that page (forum.tw.fdzone.org/viewthread.php?tid=324495) looks like it's only Japanese kana, which big5-hkscs would fix too
  609. # [15:21] <foolip> I think we should try to find a better sample of Taiwanese pages, but using what source?
  610. # [15:22] <kennyluck> Yeah, I wonder why people don't teach big5-hkscs instead. MS people are clearly not doing good evangelism.
  611. # [15:22] <annevk> all you get back from MS people is "use utf-8 or utf-16"
  612. # [15:23] <annevk> even if you ask questions specific to big5 :)
  613. # [15:23] <foolip> kennyluck, any advice you can give about how to proceed in order to minimize breakage for Taiwan users would be most helpful... :/
  614. # [15:23] <foolip> annevk, I assume that we don't have any locale-dependent mappings and that you won't consider spec'ing that?
  615. # [15:24] <annevk> if that's what's required we'll do that
  616. # [15:25] <annevk> currently we don't have that
  617. # [15:25] <foolip> Mr. Pragmatic :)
  618. # [15:25] <foolip> I know I don't want it, because I use both Hong Kong and Taiwan sites with an English locale...
  619. # [15:27] <annevk> it sounds pretty sucky indeed
  620. # [15:27] <annevk> but we already have local-dependent defaults
  621. # [15:28] <kennyluck> Yeah, i am pretty sure what they (Yuan and Timothy) want is what I said: "big5"="big5-uao" for zh-TW browsers.
  622. # [15:33] <kennyluck> foolip, ok, so in case you are interested. PTT has a UTF-8 gateway "ssh bbsu@ptt.cc", which transcodes the content correctly for the page I gave you. This means that changing http://www.ptt.cc/ shouldn't be very hard *in theory*.
  623. # [15:34] <kennyluck> But really, I think the best way to make progress on this is to consult MS people working in Taiwan. They probably understand the problem better, esp. why they don't try to stop the grassroot big5-uao effort...
  624. # [15:34] * Quits: nesta_ (~nesta_@37.Red-81-36-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  625. # [15:40] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com)
  626. # [15:43] <annevk> I reached out to their encoding expert, but he couldn't offer much help
  627. # [15:43] <annevk> kennyluck: see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Mar/thread.html#msg46
  628. # [15:47] <kennyluck> annevk, foolip, hold on. I need to understand this a bit more. When you say IE treat 'big5'='big5-hkscs'. Do they render the Kanas or not? (Kanas are not rendered correctly in by Win7 Laptop, I wonder if this is locale-dependent.)
  629. # [15:47] <foolip> kennyluck, they have a single mapping that uses PUA, what it renders like really depends on the installed fonts
  630. # [15:48] <annevk> for windows-874 Chrome maps fullwidth ASCII back to ASCII, for windows-1252 they don't
  631. # [15:48] <foolip> even though the MingLiu_HKSCS font comes with Win7 by default, I'm not sure if it's used by IE
  632. # [15:49] <kennyluck> foolip, OK. now I see why people want to install the big5-uao package.
  633. # [15:49] * [[zzz]] is now known as [[zz]]
  634. # [15:49] * Joins: sarro (~sarro@i5E865188.versanet.de)
  635. # [15:49] <foolip> I think that a lot of these pages don't render correctly in most browsers, but we want a proper mapping to Unicode to make them work as well as they can...
  636. # [15:50] <kennyluck> Is there a similar package that does the *correct big5-hkscs* which doesn't map to PUA (HK-2008?)
  637. # [15:51] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric@17.212.152.104)
  638. # [15:51] * Quits: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@111-250-147-216.dynamic.hinet.net) (Quit: HTTP/1.1 404 JohnAlbin Not Found)
  639. # [15:51] * Joins: izhak (~izhak@188.244.179.243)
  640. # [15:52] <foolip> kennyluck, Microsoft has stopped providing the hacked code page and just ship MingLiu_HKSCS with Win7, but I'm not exactly sure if any special steps are needed to make IE use it
  641. # [15:52] * Joins: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@111-250-147-216.dynamic.hinet.net)
  642. # [15:52] <foolip> A Hong Kong user would probably know.
  643. # [15:52] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se)
  644. # [15:53] <kennyluck> foolip, yeah. I mean, as a normal user, I would be happy to learn something simple just to turn the Kanas on instead of the 18 steps 'big5-uao'.
  645. # [16:00] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YZKMMMCIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  646. # [16:01] * Joins: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  647. # [16:02] * Joins: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba)
  648. # [16:02] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241)
  649. # [16:04] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@ad008216.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: jdaggett)
  650. # [16:04] <kennyluck> Or I have the feeling that fixing this part of evangelism might be just too difficult. I wonder how bad it is if we just do locale-dependent 'big5'='big5-uao'. If we don't fix the whole thing, we'll just go into a suboptimal that "いま俺の顔生涯最高にキモい自信がある" (uao) is rendered as "いま俺の𡟺生涯最高にキモい自信がある" (hkscs)
  651. # [16:04] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YZKMMMCIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  652. # [16:05] <annevk> unless special fonts are used big5-uao is already broken in Chrome
  653. # [16:05] <annevk> and Internet Explorer
  654. # [16:05] <annevk> combined they have about 80% of the Taiwan market
  655. # [16:06] <annevk> Chrome about 15%
  656. # [16:06] <annevk> Firefox 10% last I looked
  657. # [16:06] <annevk> and Chrome does not use the table from Windows
  658. # [16:07] <foolip> kennyluck, the question is really if that page already works for a majority of Taiwan users. If it only works in Firefox, I'm not sure we should introduce locale-dependent mappings in order to fix it
  659. # [16:08] <annevk> yeah, it seems better that all browsers break it so that other pages become less broken and there's an incentive to fix the content
  660. # [16:08] <foolip> does anyone have a good source for the top million sites or something that I can scrape for taiwanese sites?
  661. # [16:09] <foolip> My hunch is that even in Taiwan, using the big5-hkscs mapping will be correct more often.
  662. # [16:10] <annevk> there's http://s3.amazonaws.com/alexa-static/top-1m.csv.zip but it's only front pages
  663. # [16:10] * Joins: snowfox (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  664. # [16:11] <kennyluck> I fear that it's not just the content that's broken. The fact that we still see pages educating people to install the big5-uao package is not neglectable.
  665. # [16:11] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YZKMMMCIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  666. # [16:11] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YZKMMMCIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  667. # [16:11] * Joins: jahman (~woops@129.175.204.73)
  668. # [16:12] <foolip> kennyluck, I guess all we can do right now is speculate on how big the problem is. I'll try to get some kind of random scrape of the Taiwan Web...
  669. # [16:12] <kennyluck> foolip, I don't even find a clue on how to turn on big5-hkscs in IE as 'big5'. How could that be true?
  670. # [16:13] <foolip> kennyluck, it's always the case, big5 always maps to the same PUA code points
  671. # [16:13] <foolip> and the MingLiu_HKSCS font shipped with Win7 has glyphs for those code points
  672. # [16:13] <foolip> I don't know what font you need to make those PUA code points match Big5-UAO
  673. # [16:14] <annevk> kennyluck: I just read that article, did you see how in the end it says in Chrome you should simply select the big5-hkscs override?
  674. # [16:14] <annevk> kennyluck: and that it's pretty much only written for PTT
  675. # [16:15] <kennyluck> I need to go back to that page again...
  676. # [16:15] <annevk> so if even the Taiwanese suggest big5-hkscs in Chrome, it seems like using that by default would be an improvement
  677. # [16:15] <annevk> here is the URL http://www.techbang.com/posts/3350-let-win7-perfect-display-japanese-web-page
  678. # [16:16] <hsivonen> so sad that PUA is used for de facto standardization
  679. # [16:16] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241) (Remote host closed the connection)
  680. # [16:17] <hsivonen> not surprising of course
  681. # [16:17] <foolip> hsivonen, killing it for Big5 looks in the real of the possible, fortunately
  682. # [16:17] <hsivonen> PUA is the vendor prefixes of Unicode
  683. # [16:17] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@125.25.230.78.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net)
  684. # [16:18] <foolip> yay, http://s3.amazonaws.com/alexa-static/top-1m.csv.zip has 2930 .tw domains
  685. # [16:19] <zcorpan> now do a site: search for each domain to get the top n pages of each domain :-)
  686. # [16:19] <foolip> zcorpan, can that be automated?
  687. # [16:20] <zcorpan> dunno, i guess most search engines have anti-DOS measures
  688. # [16:20] <foolip> obviously, ptt.cc is not on the list of top .tw sites, but I don't know how else to make a list like this :/
  689. # [16:21] <zcorpan> hmm, don't some search engines have a feature to search for pages in a particular language?
  690. # [16:21] <foolip> I would love a proxy server that saved all requests to disk so I could just let my web browser visit these pages, follow a few links, and then I have the pages to analyze on disk...
  691. # [16:25] * Quits: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  692. # [16:26] <Philip`> zcorpan: Pick a common word in that language and then search for it?
  693. # [16:27] * Quits: tonsofpcs (~tonsofpcs@cpe-72-230-192-8.stny.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  694. # [16:29] * Joins: tonsofpcs (~tonsofpcs@cpe-72-230-192-8.stny.res.rr.com)
  695. # [16:30] <annevk> weehee, all encoders are slightly different
  696. # [16:31] <annevk> ^^ sarcastic
  697. # [16:37] <hsivonen> looks like Qt got memes before Opera or IE: http://qtmemes.tumblr.com/
  698. # [16:39] <Philip`> It seems to be getting quite metamemetic
  699. # [16:39] <zcorpan> well that'll be today's quirk testing
  700. # [16:39] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-919ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  701. # [16:40] <annevk> Opera: [red penguin] Follows standards. [blue pinguin] Alone.
  702. # [16:41] <kennyluck> foolip, so this is what I think as a user. 1) I open http://www.toysdaily.com/discuz/forum-24-2.html 2) I can't see the Kana presumably because of reasons related to fonts 3) I happen to know and only know 'big5-uao' as the way to turn Kana on 4) I start outputting Japanese content because I can read it now 5) I now output 'big5-uao'.
  703. # [16:41] <Ms2ger> http://qtmemes.tumblr.com/post/20183979051/we-have-qtwebkit-that-means-we-count-right
  704. # [16:42] <kennyluck> So yeah, intercepting 2) seems workable, but it really depends on IE.
  705. # [16:42] <kennyluck> Otherwise, I would still be tempted to install 'big5-uao' and then create incompatible content.
  706. # [16:44] <annevk> you cannot output big5-uao in Gecko I think
  707. # [16:44] <annevk> their encoder is restricted
  708. # [16:44] <kennyluck> annevk, ah. Good point.
  709. # [16:45] * Joins: chriseppstein (~chrisepps@209.119.65.162)
  710. # [16:47] * Joins: hober (~ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  711. # [16:50] <annevk> also, Chrome users are apparently advised to just use big5-hkscs
  712. # [16:50] <annevk> Firefox users are not mentioned...
  713. # [16:53] * Quits: lar_zzz (~lar_zzz@business-088-079-143-185.static.arcor-ip.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  714. # [16:54] <kennyluck> annevk, in any case I agree that expanding big5 to big5-hkscs or the intersection of big5-hkscs and big5-uao is making good progress, but I am not sure if it's optimal.
  715. # [16:56] <annevk> foolip: did you look at "firefox" vs "firefox-hk"?
  716. # [16:56] <annevk> foolip: ignoring PUA
  717. # [16:56] <smaug____> rniwa: ping
  718. # [16:56] <smaug____> rniwa: where should I send comments about undomanager
  719. # [16:57] <annevk> whatwg@whatwg.org has been used thus far
  720. # [16:58] <kennyluck> (re. you cannot output big5-uao in Gecko I think) But I might still output 'big5-uao' from IE. I think the extended mapping installed by the package isn't unidirectional like Gecko, but I am not very sure.
  721. # [16:58] <annevk> oh yeah, with that package IE can do damage
  722. # [17:00] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YZKMMMCIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  723. # [17:00] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YZKMMMCIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  724. # [17:00] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YZKMMMCIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  725. # [17:03] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YZKMMMCIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  726. # [17:04] <annevk> I guess we should figure out a) what's incompatible between hkscs and uao and b) how widespread uao is.
  727. # [17:08] <annevk> but not today, I have some things to do
  728. # [17:08] * Quits: Yudai___ (~Yudai@p8560b9.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp) (Quit: Tiarra 0.1+svn-36726: SIGTERM received; exit)
  729. # [17:10] * Quits: mishunov (~spliter@77.88.72.162) (Quit: mishunov)
  730. # [17:12] * Joins: Yudai (~Yudai@pa9c334.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp)
  731. # [17:14] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I wonder how much would break moving away from the PUA for Big5.
  732. # [17:15] * Joins: ksweeney (~Kevin_Swe@nyv-exweb.iac.com)
  733. # [17:17] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
  734. # [17:21] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  735. # [17:23] * Parts: ksweeney (~Kevin_Swe@nyv-exweb.iac.com)
  736. # [17:26] * Quits: dirkpennings (~dirkpenni@90-145-26-140.bbserv.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  737. # [17:27] * Joins: teleject (~christoph@cpe-70-112-210-24.austin.res.rr.com)
  738. # [17:28] * Quits: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B135994.dip.t-dialin.net)
  739. # [17:31] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  740. # [17:32] <annevk> gsnedders: everything that would break would already be broken in Opera; and the pages we looked at would work better with hkscs
  741. # [17:39] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  742. # [17:40] * Quits: FACEFOX (~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: http://www.facefox.com)
  743. # [17:41] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric@17.212.152.104) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  744. # [17:46] * Joins: administrateur (~administr@46404hpv103101.ikoula.com)
  745. # [17:47] * Quits: administrateur (~administr@46404hpv103101.ikoula.com) (Client Quit)
  746. # [17:51] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric@2620:149:4:1b01:5146:e77d:613a:adea)
  747. # [17:56] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric@2620:149:4:1b01:5146:e77d:613a:adea) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  748. # [17:58] * Joins: lar_zzz (~lar_zzz@business-088-079-143-185.static.arcor-ip.net)
  749. # [18:00] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@nat/opera/x-idsupmqemygcmern) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  750. # [18:10] * Joins: timmywil (~timmywil@host-68-169-154-67.WISOLT2.epbfi.com)
  751. # [18:16] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  752. # [18:17] * Joins: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  753. # [18:21] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  754. # [18:22] * Quits: timmywil (~timmywil@host-68-169-154-67.WISOLT2.epbfi.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  755. # [18:24] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p5B326EE5.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Verlassend)
  756. # [18:27] * Joins: administrateur (~administr@46404hpv103101.ikoula.com)
  757. # [18:28] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric@17.212.152.104)
  758. # [18:29] * Quits: lar_zzz (~lar_zzz@business-088-079-143-185.static.arcor-ip.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  759. # [18:30] * Quits: administrateur (~administr@46404hpv103101.ikoula.com) (Client Quit)
  760. # [18:30] * Joins: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com)
  761. # [18:30] * Joins: administrateur (~administr@46404hpv103101.ikoula.com)
  762. # [18:31] * Quits: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba) (Quit: leaving)
  763. # [18:33] * Quits: administrateur (~administr@46404hpv103101.ikoula.com) (Client Quit)
  764. # [18:33] * Joins: davidaparicio (~administr@46404hpv103101.ikoula.com)
  765. # [18:33] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5d84fd3c.pool.mediaWays.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  766. # [18:34] * Quits: davidaparicio (~administr@46404hpv103101.ikoula.com) (Client Quit)
  767. # [18:40] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  768. # [18:41] * Quits: izhak (~izhak@188.244.179.243) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  769. # [18:44] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@nat/canonical/x-dnmoopeicmdkvcqd)
  770. # [18:44] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@nat/canonical/x-dnmoopeicmdkvcqd) (Changing host)
  771. # [18:44] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  772. # [18:50] * Joins: timmywil (~timmywil@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com)
  773. # [18:50] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5d84e469.pool.mediaWays.net)
  774. # [18:52] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:913b:af3f:b668:4913)
  775. # [18:52] * Joins: rodd (~rodd@187.75.224.32)
  776. # [18:52] * Joins: J_Voracek (~J_Voracek@cpe-70-123-106-75.tx.res.rr.com)
  777. # [18:59] * Quits: J_Voracek (~J_Voracek@cpe-70-123-106-75.tx.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  778. # [18:59] * Quits: danbri_ (~danbri@cable-146-255-148-108.dynamic.telemach.ba) (Remote host closed the connection)
  779. # [19:01] * Joins: nesta_ (~nesta_@121.Red-83-58-131.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net)
  780. # [19:01] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  781. # [19:05] * Quits: Yudai (~Yudai@pa9c334.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  782. # [19:07] * Joins: tomasf (~tom@c-b7dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  783. # [19:07] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  784. # [19:07] * Quits: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@161.212.140.88.rev.sfr.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  785. # [19:09] * Joins: jsbell (jsbell@nat/google/x-gqohxycabznjbzyf)
  786. # [19:09] * Joins: jsbell_ (jsbell@nat/google/x-iasmeayknfslkvrh)
  787. # [19:10] <jsbell_> http://www.corp.google.com/~jsbell/rampart - added left/right mouse click to place/rotate (in addition to space/control); added territory capture. (algorithm requires you can't surround the "seed" location, hence bisecting water)
  788. # [19:10] <jsbell_> Whoops, that would be the wrong channel
  789. # [19:11] * Quits: jsbell_ (jsbell@nat/google/x-iasmeayknfslkvrh) (Client Quit)
  790. # [19:12] <jsbell> (curses, our team's top secret plans to dominate the world via an obsession with an obscure 90's arcade game have been leaked)
  791. # [19:17] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  792. # [19:19] * Joins: Yudai (~Yudai@pdf85449c.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp)
  793. # [19:20] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-rjjooryvlowaydst)
  794. # [19:23] * Joins: pablof (~pablof@144.189.101.1)
  795. # [19:23] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric@17.212.152.104) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  796. # [19:23] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  797. # [19:24] * Quits: pablof (~pablof@144.189.101.1) (Client Quit)
  798. # [19:24] * Joins: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B135994.dip.t-dialin.net)
  799. # [19:24] * Quits: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B135994.dip.t-dialin.net) (Client Quit)
  800. # [19:25] * Joins: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B135994.dip.t-dialin.net)
  801. # [19:25] <[tm]> jsbell: 'you can't surround the "seed" location, hence bisecting water'
  802. # [19:26] <[tm]> I'm pretty sure you stole that from a Wallace Stevens poem
  803. # [19:27] <jsbell> heh
  804. # [19:28] * Joins: pablof (~pablof@144.189.101.1)
  805. # [19:30] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  806. # [19:31] * Quits: Yudai (~Yudai@pdf85449c.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp) (Quit: Tiarra 0.1+svn-36726: SIGTERM received; exit)
  807. # [19:33] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.108.107.getinternet.no)
  808. # [19:35] * Joins: Yudai (~Yudai@p6567c3.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp)
  809. # [19:38] <rniwa> smaug____: hi, i just replied to your message
  810. # [19:38] <rniwa> smaug____: sorry, I forgot to close my IRC client :\
  811. # [19:38] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-119-243-157-97.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  812. # [19:38] <smaug____> rniwa: thanks. It was just a first quick read-through
  813. # [19:41] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-gvercekratgimnwo)
  814. # [19:41] <rniwa> smaug____: btw, since i've started hosting it on w3c repository, it might make sense for us to make public-webapps the place for discussion
  815. # [19:42] <rniwa> AryehGregor: what do you think?
  816. # [19:42] <rniwa> sadly, nobody had replied to my email about chartering undomanager in the editing community
  817. # [19:42] <rniwa> so not sure what's happening there
  818. # [19:42] <rniwa> but...
  819. # [19:42] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@2620:149:4:1b01:60e8:4d6b:ddf4:c1c1)
  820. # [19:43] <smaug____> rniwa: yeah, webapps should be ok
  821. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> rniwa, as long as you don't make it public-html :)
  822. # [19:43] <smaug____> (If I could get File system out from webapps, and undomanager in...)
  823. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> Did you comment on the charter? :)
  824. # [19:43] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@2620:149:4:1b01:60e8:4d6b:ddf4:c1c1) (Client Quit)
  825. # [19:44] <smaug____> oh, yes, if the discussion happened in public-html, I would promise to not send any comments :)
  826. # [19:47] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.89.218)
  827. # [19:47] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@2620:149:4:1b01:b8f4:8bdf:4eef:b5a0)
  828. # [19:47] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@2620:149:4:1b01:b8f4:8bdf:4eef:b5a0) (Client Quit)
  829. # [19:47] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.108.107.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
  830. # [19:50] <rniwa> Ms2ger: I thought I did but maybe I didn't use that particular word or wasn't clear about it :\
  831. # [19:50] <Ms2ger> rniwa, hmm?
  832. # [19:51] <smaug____> rniwa: so, input element and textarea could just always have undomanager
  833. # [19:52] * Joins: Druide__ (~Druid@p5B135994.dip.t-dialin.net)
  834. # [19:52] * Quits: dave_levin (dave_levin@nat/google/x-aqrweygwkjjfucza) (Quit: dave_levin)
  835. # [19:52] * Quits: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  836. # [19:52] * Joins: dave_levin (dave_levin@nat/google/x-cenqsqtsrztfetjl)
  837. # [19:53] <smaug____> rniwa: DOMTransactionEvent doesn't really make it more undo related...
  838. # [19:53] <rniwa> smaug____: i know.
  839. # [19:53] <rniwa> smaug____: we should rename it to something like UndoRedoEvent
  840. # [19:53] <smaug____> rniwa: where is the event dispatched?
  841. # [19:53] <smaug____> to the Undomanager itself?
  842. # [19:54] <smaug____> or to the element?
  843. # [19:54] <rniwa> smaug____: to the element
  844. # [19:54] * Quits: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B135994.dip.t-dialin.net)
  845. # [19:54] * Quits: Druide__ (~Druid@p5B135994.dip.t-dialin.net) (Client Quit)
  846. # [19:54] <smaug____> hmm
  847. # [19:54] <rniwa> smaug____: "When the user agent is required to fire a DOM transaction event for a DOM transaction t at an undo scope host h, the user agent must run the following steps:"
  848. # [19:54] <smaug____> right
  849. # [19:54] <rniwa> smaug____: so that it can bubble
  850. # [19:54] * Joins: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B135994.dip.t-dialin.net)
  851. # [19:55] <smaug____> why does it need to bubble?
  852. # [19:55] <smaug____> nm
  853. # [19:55] <rniwa> smaug____: so... an important use case is to do something in response to undo/redo
  854. # [19:55] <smaug____> yes, it should bubble
  855. # [19:55] <rniwa> smaug____: for that, you don't necessary want to attach event listeners on all elements with undoManager
  856. # [19:57] <rniwa> smaug____, Ms2ger: since you're already here... do you know if Mozilla imports W3C tests and create reference files for them?
  857. # [19:57] <rniwa> smaug____, Ms2ger: we want to import CSS test suite but don't want to add thousands of pixel results.
  858. # [19:57] <Ms2ger> I've written some for 2.1 a while back
  859. # [19:57] <smaug____> I don't know about css tests
  860. # [19:58] <rniwa> Ms2ger: oh yeah?
  861. # [19:58] <rniwa> Ms2ger: do you know where they're located?
  862. # [19:58] <Ms2ger> Boring ones, for padding, IIRC
  863. # [19:58] <Ms2ger> https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/css-tests
  864. # [19:58] <rniwa> Ms2ger: if you already have reference files, ideally, we don't want to re-invent reference files ourselves
  865. # [19:58] <rniwa> since Mozilla folks surely have more experience writing reference files
  866. # [19:58] <Ms2ger> I need to figure out how to get them reviewed and into the WG's repo
  867. # [19:59] <rniwa> Ms2ger: oh, so they're not in Mozilla's repository?
  868. # [19:59] <Ms2ger> No
  869. # [19:59] <rniwa> okay. so i guess we have the same problem then.
  870. # [19:59] <Ms2ger> We don't import any non-reftest CSS tests, I don't think
  871. # [20:00] <rniwa> Ms2ger: okay. makes sense.
  872. # [20:00] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5ED1E624.cm-7-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  873. # [20:00] * smaug____ tries to figure out some non-DB-related synonym for transaction
  874. # [20:00] <rniwa> smaug____: we use UndoStep internally in WebKit
  875. # [20:00] <smaug____> that sounds ok
  876. # [20:00] <rniwa> annevk: hi annevk
  877. # [20:00] <smaug____> in gecko we do use transactions
  878. # [20:01] <smaug____> rniwa: undomanager is TransactionManager
  879. # [20:01] <rniwa> smaug____: yeah, but it's getting quite confusing in the world where we have IDB's transaction :\
  880. # [20:01] <rniwa> smaug____: we could just throw in "undo" prefix as well
  881. # [20:01] <smaug____> yeah. undo/redo/undoupdated ...
  882. # [20:01] <rniwa> so like undo-transaction
  883. # [20:01] <annevk> rniwa: good evening
  884. # [20:02] <rniwa> annevk: does opera import CSS2.1 test suite as pixel tests? (i.e. generate images)?
  885. # [20:02] <rniwa> annevk: we want to import newer css test suite but we've realized that they don't have reference files
  886. # [20:03] <rniwa> and we don't really want to generate thousands of png files :(
  887. # [20:03] <annevk> yeah, I objected to the CSS WG doing that
  888. # [20:03] <annevk> and then the whole group got mad
  889. # [20:03] <annevk> and glazou blamed Opera
  890. # [20:03] <annevk> and then they went ahead with their pixel tests instead of doing the test suite right...
  891. # [20:03] <rniwa> annevk: :(
  892. # [20:03] <annevk> gsnedders prolly knows what we do internally
  893. # [20:04] <rniwa> annevk: what if we said we don't want to import tests that are not reftests?
  894. # [20:04] <annevk> I think TabAtkins actually said it didn't matter to Google
  895. # [20:04] * rniwa wonders if webkit community's decision will have an impact on CSS WG
  896. # [20:04] <annevk> but that would be a wise change of position I think
  897. # [20:04] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
  898. # [20:04] <rniwa> annevk: yeah, pixel results make very little sense
  899. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> rniwa, the policy for CSS3 is reftest-only, IIRC
  900. # [20:05] <rniwa> annevk: it incurs way too much maintenance cost.
  901. # [20:05] <rniwa> Ms2ger: good!
  902. # [20:05] <rniwa> TabAtkins: do you know the details?
  903. # [20:05] <annevk> Microsoft didn't care, and Gecko/WebKit people were kind of holding back because glazou blew up
  904. # [20:05] <astearns> Ms2ger: it's reftest or testharness.js now
  905. # [20:05] <annevk> astearns: sweet
  906. # [20:05] <rniwa> annevk: I see.
  907. # [20:06] <rniwa> Ms2ger, annevk: it might make sense for Gecko/WebKit people to push CSS WG to have reference files
  908. # [20:06] <Ms2ger> astearns, well, requiring reftests for JS tests would be silly
  909. # [20:06] <rniwa> since neither of us want to import tests that are not reftests
  910. # [20:07] <astearns> Ms2ger: more silly than not allowing JS tests at all
  911. # [20:07] <rniwa> Ms2ger: testharness.js aren't reftests, right?
  912. # [20:07] <astearns> rniwa: correct
  913. # [20:07] <astearns> rniwa: and we just checked in testharness.js support in WebKit
  914. # [20:09] * Joins: GarciaWebDev (~Alejandro@190.55.15.249)
  915. # [20:10] <Ms2ger> And so did I for Gecko :)
  916. # [20:10] <Ms2ger> rniwa, I can't speak for Mozilla, and I barely do anything to do with CSS, but you have my vote :)
  917. # [20:16] <gsnedders> rniwa: We have it as screenshot tests, yes
  918. # [20:16] <gsnedders> rniwa: We've converted some to reftests, but not entirely
  919. # [20:17] <gsnedders> rniwa: Never submitted to the WG after it became kinda obvious the WG didn't want them lest it delay REC
  920. # [20:17] <rniwa> gsnedders: :(
  921. # [20:17] <rniwa> gsnedders: that's my fear was well.
  922. # [20:17] <gsnedders> rniwa: The policy for CSS3 is reftest only, pretty much
  923. # [20:17] <rniwa> gsnedders: it seems like they won't accept our patches to add reference files even if we submitted them
  924. # [20:18] <rniwa> gsnedders: do you have your reference files publicly available somewhere?
  925. # [20:18] <gsnedders> rniwa: You can try, and argue that these tests will likely become part of CSS3 module test suites
  926. # [20:18] <gsnedders> rniwa: I don't think so.
  927. # [20:19] <Ms2ger> Now that 2.1 is a rec, I guess we can get them in
  928. # [20:19] <gsnedders> rniwa: But group the tests by their screenshot, and you realize CSS 2.1 test suite is in large part identical references.
  929. # [20:19] <Ms2ger> (Some of the refs in my repo are gsnedders's, I should note)
  930. # [20:19] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Yeah, I guess, but I've moved on from caring about it now.
  931. # [20:20] <gsnedders> I've argued for this before, and I can't be fucked fighting to get them in.
  932. # [20:20] <Ms2ger> Anyway, if the WG doesn't want them, I'd prefer a shared fork, though
  933. # [20:20] <rniwa> Ms2ger: yeah, that's what i'm getting at
  934. # [20:20] <rniwa> Ms2ger: there's no point for each of us to re-do all the work
  935. # [20:20] <gsnedders> If you don't want to take the work that people have done, even though your requirements insist on them in future, then that's your own damned problem.
  936. # [20:20] <rniwa> Ms2ger: if we can just share the results
  937. # [20:21] <gsnedders> rniwa: That's the exact argument I made to the mailing list two years ago.
  938. # [20:21] <gsnedders> Nobody cared.
  939. # [20:21] <gsnedders> Literally.
  940. # [20:21] <rniwa> gsnedders: :(
  941. # [20:21] <rniwa> gsnedders: that's astoundingly annoying
  942. # [20:21] <gsnedders> Not even Mozilla people, who were the only others at the time to have a running reftest system.
  943. # [20:21] <gsnedders> WebKit people were inteested, but mainly in an in-the-future way.
  944. # [20:22] <rniwa> gsnedders: it's possible that future has come :D
  945. # [20:22] <rniwa> gsnedders: since we DO support reftests now
  946. # [20:22] <astearns> the future is here! rniwa has added support for reftests :)
  947. # [20:22] <gsnedders> Some of my refs may well assume 96dpi on tests that shouldn't.
  948. # [20:22] <gsnedders> astearns: Yeah, I'm well aware. :)
  949. # [20:22] <rniwa> gsnedders, astearns: we've had our own support for reftests, but we only added the support for W3C style reftests last winter
  950. # [20:23] <gsnedders> rniwa: Search for emails from me to public-css-testsuite and w3c-css-wg if you want the background
  951. # [20:23] <rniwa> gsnedders: okay.
  952. # [20:23] <gsnedders> rniwa: Yeah, you didn't even have that when I was working on this :)
  953. # [20:23] <rniwa> gsnedders, Ms2ger: anyway, it'll be great if we could share reference files even if W3C doesn't accept them
  954. # [20:24] <rniwa> gsnedders, Ms2ger: for webkit, I want to make sure we don't invent our own reference files that don't adequately exercise tests
  955. # [20:24] <gsnedders> rniwa: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2010JulSep/0222.html is where I gave up
  956. # [20:24] <gsnedders> (Member only, etc)
  957. # [20:24] <rniwa> gsnedders: oh... it's member only
  958. # [20:24] * Joins: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
  959. # [20:25] <rniwa> gsnedders: i hear member-only mailing lists are terrible places to live in
  960. # [20:25] <Ms2ger> I hear some people are more polite if their emails are archived in public
  961. # [20:26] * Joins: GarciaWebDev1 (~Alejandro@190.55.15.249)
  962. # [20:26] <jamesr> i hear some people are more polite if they aren't glazou
  963. # [20:27] <Ms2ger> No comment
  964. # [20:27] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  965. # [20:27] <gsnedders> rniwa: I may have sent some to public-css-testsuite
  966. # [20:28] <gsnedders> (chaals's response to that email is the truth, for those of you who can read them)
  967. # [20:28] <gsnedders> (references, that is)
  968. # [20:28] <Ms2ger> rniwa, I'm happy to help out writing some references, btw, but you'll probably have to poke me :)
  969. # [20:28] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:224:d7ff:fef0:8d90)
  970. # [20:28] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@80.80.42.205)
  971. # [20:28] * Quits: GarciaWebDev (~Alejandro@190.55.15.249) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  972. # [20:29] <gsnedders> rniwa: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2010Sep/0030.html
  973. # [20:29] <gsnedders> "Attached is a diff to convert 830 tests to reftests (with a mere four
  974. # [20:29] <gsnedders> references!)."
  975. # [20:29] <rniwa> gsnedders: thanks!
  976. # [20:30] <rniwa> gsnedders, Ms2ger: I'll probably post something back on webkit-dev about this if you guys don't mind
  977. # [20:30] <gsnedders> The whole situation was ridiculous, really.
  978. # [20:30] <rniwa> we're having a big debate on how to import css tests
  979. # [20:30] <gsnedders> rniwa: tl;dr of the debate?
  980. # [20:30] <Ms2ger> rniwa, gsnedders, those are in my repo too
  981. # [20:30] <rniwa> and this reftest vs. pixel test thing is one major issue
  982. # [20:30] <rniwa> Ms2ger, gsnedders: so... we want to import tests as reftests
  983. # [20:31] <gsnedders> You don't want to go through all 10k tests and label them as pass or fail (or in your case, pass or xfail).
  984. # [20:31] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@FL1-119-243-157-97.tky.mesh.ad.jp)
  985. # [20:31] <rniwa> but some of us (mainly me) don't want to invent our own reference files because there is a chance that our own reference files don't exercise the tests adaquately
  986. # [20:31] <Ms2ger> rniwa, isn't http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m284vvtgQT1rqvy12o1_1280.jpg argument enough in favour of reftests? :)
  987. # [20:31] <rniwa> e.g. there could be a bug that affects both the test and the reference file same way and end up hiding the bug
  988. # [20:31] * gsnedders may have borrowed summer interns for a day to label them
  989. # [20:33] <annevk> Ms2ger: brilliant
  990. # [20:33] <Ms2ger> Note to self: don't do internship at Opera the summer after MS dumps its tests
  991. # [20:33] <Ms2ger> Also: http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1yh3dbdHf1rqvy12o1_r1_1280.jpg
  992. # [20:33] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Heh, we're almost certainly never going to bring in a large dump of screenshot-based tests ever again
  993. # [20:35] <matjas> could some of you take a look at https://bugs.ecmascript.org/show_bug.cgi?id=277#c2? /cc zcorpan
  994. # [20:36] <matjas> IIRC all browsers except Firefox respect http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_ECMAScript#Identifiers but it’s been a while since I tested
  995. # [20:36] <Ms2ger> v\u0061r x = 0
  996. # [20:36] <Ms2ger> Orly
  997. # [20:36] * Joins: GarciaWebDev (~Alejandro@190.55.15.249)
  998. # [20:37] <smaug____> Ms2ger: that is good one
  999. # [20:37] * gsnedders cringes at the thought of all that
  1000. # [20:37] * Quits: teleject (~christoph@cpe-70-112-210-24.austin.res.rr.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1001. # [20:37] * Joins: teleject (~christoph@cpe-70-112-210-24.austin.res.rr.com)
  1002. # [20:37] * rniwa goes to his office
  1003. # [20:37] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: rniwa)
  1004. # [20:37] <Ms2ger> matjas, unsurprisingly, Allen wasn't too happy to see you mention that :)
  1005. # [20:38] * Quits: GarciaWebDev1 (~Alejandro@190.55.15.249) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1006. # [20:38] <matjas> hey, I never said this should become part of ECMAScript
  1007. # [20:38] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@80.80.42.205) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1008. # [20:38] <matjas> just how most browsers seem to do it
  1009. # [20:39] <gsnedders> matjas: Then that's not relevant for es-discuss :P
  1010. # [20:40] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5ED1E624.cm-7-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1011. # [20:41] <matjas> I just mentioned it casually :) It was a Spidermonkey-specific thread anyway (as no other browser allows `function function() {}` etc.)
  1012. # [20:41] * matjas nerdrages
  1013. # [20:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: Any idea whether you found the identifier nonsense needed for web compat?
  1014. # [20:42] * Joins: GarciaWebDev1 (~Alejandro@190.55.15.249)
  1015. # [20:42] * Quits: GarciaWebDev (~Alejandro@190.55.15.249) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  1016. # [20:44] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@93-103-104-107.dynamic.t-2.net)
  1017. # [20:45] * Joins: GarciaWebDev (~Alejandro@190.55.15.249)
  1018. # [20:47] <matjas> var tru\u0065; /* "Expected identifier" error in IE9 */ console.log(fals\u0065) /* "Syntax error" in IE9 */
  1019. # [20:47] <matjas> so Fx and IE agree
  1020. # [20:47] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: :tiuQ tiuq sah woclrak)
  1021. # [20:47] * Quits: GarciaWebDev1 (~Alejandro@190.55.15.249) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  1022. # [20:48] * Joins: GarciaWebDev1 (~Alejandro@190.55.15.249)
  1023. # [20:49] * Quits: GarciaWebDev (~Alejandro@190.55.15.249) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  1024. # [20:51] * Joins: GarciaWebDev (~Alejandro@190.55.15.249)
  1025. # [20:51] * Joins: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@mau49-1-82-245-46-173.fbx.proxad.net)
  1026. # [20:53] * Quits: GarciaWebDev1 (~Alejandro@190.55.15.249) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  1027. # [20:53] * Joins: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-136-196.adsl.inetia.pl)
  1028. # [20:56] * Quits: GarciaWebDev (~Alejandro@190.55.15.249) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  1029. # [20:56] * Joins: GarciaWebDev (~Alejandro@190.55.15.249)
  1030. # [20:59] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  1031. # [20:59] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  1032. # [21:00] * Joins: GarciaWebDev1 (~Alejandro@190.55.15.249)
  1033. # [21:00] * Quits: GarciaWebDev (~Alejandro@190.55.15.249) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  1034. # [21:02] <Ms2ger> Looks like pointer lock landed in Gecko
  1035. # [21:05] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@93-103-104-107.dynamic.t-2.net) (Quit: sedovsek)
  1036. # [21:07] <smaug____> yup
  1037. # [21:10] * Quits: GarciaWebDev1 (~Alejandro@190.55.15.249) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1038. # [21:14] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YZKMMMCIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  1039. # [21:14] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GYDCCXLVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  1040. # [21:16] * Quits: Tuju (~tuju@176.75.219.213.sta.estpak.ee)
  1041. # [21:20] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric@2620:149:4:1b01:786a:53b6:3514:d7c1)
  1042. # [21:23] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-sjkmjufnljvocbpx)
  1043. # [21:24] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1044. # [21:26] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-119-243-157-97.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1045. # [21:29] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  1046. # [21:38] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GYDCCXLVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1047. # [21:39] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GYDCCXLVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  1048. # [21:47] <Hixie> abarth: any movement on http://www.w3.org/2011/webappsec/track/issues/6 ?
  1049. # [21:48] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  1050. # [21:48] <abarth> Hixie: we talked about it in the telecon yesterday
  1051. # [21:48] <Hixie> so i should still do the refactoring?
  1052. # [21:48] <abarth> as far as I can tell, everyone wants it, but moz hasn't implemented it and is trying to block the spec from progressing until they finish
  1053. # [21:48] <Hixie> just making sure :-)
  1054. # [21:48] <Hixie> abarth: ok so my plan with sandbox flags is as follows:
  1055. # [21:49] * Quits: TabAtkins (tabatkins@nat/google/x-jayxqkctwmhqjoas) (Quit: Lost terminal)
  1056. # [21:49] <Hixie> - make it so that browsing contexts have the set of flags
  1057. # [21:49] <Hixie> - make it so that documents have two copies of the set of flags: one called something like "the CSP flags" and one called the "effective flags"
  1058. # [21:50] <Hixie> the effective flags is the boolean-or of the flags from the CSP flags, the browsing context flags, and all ancestor browsing context flags
  1059. # [21:50] <Hixie> hm no that doesn't work
  1060. # [21:50] <Hixie> csp needs to also affect decendant browsing contexts
  1061. # [21:50] <Hixie> let me try again
  1062. # [21:50] <Hixie> plan:
  1063. # [21:51] <Hixie> hmm
  1064. # [21:52] <Hixie> the basic idea is i move the real set of flags to Document
  1065. # [21:52] <Hixie> so all the security checks use that
  1066. # [21:52] <Hixie> and those are set by being fed from the various other sources
  1067. # [21:52] <Hixie> CSP, containing <iframe>, and ancestor documents
  1068. # [21:52] <Hixie> ok there we go, that's how we do it
  1069. # [21:53] <Ms2ger> Die, IDBDatabaseException and IDBDatabaseException, die
  1070. # [21:53] <Hixie> abarth: does that work for you?
  1071. # [21:53] <abarth> (Sorry, I was replying to ojan on the list. reading now)
  1072. # [21:54] <Hixie> no worries
  1073. # [21:54] <abarth> yes
  1074. # [21:54] <abarth> that works exactly the same was as the code
  1075. # [21:54] <Hixie> excellent
  1076. # [21:54] <Hixie> ok
  1077. # [21:54] <Hixie> that should be easy to spec
  1078. # [21:54] <abarth> when the document is created, it boolean-ors together a bunch of sandbox flags from various sources
  1079. # [21:54] <Ms2ger> Also, getting script crossorigin specced would be nice
  1080. # [21:55] <Hixie> (though confusing for people to read)
  1081. # [21:55] <abarth> it seems pretty clean
  1082. # [21:55] <Hixie> yeah it's just confusing because in specs it's hard to make multiple copies of the same thing understandable
  1083. # [21:55] <Hixie> much easier to do in code
  1084. # [21:55] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.89.218) (Quit: othermaciej)
  1085. # [21:56] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  1086. # [21:56] <annevk> Ms2ger: indexed DB, the slightly better DB (but is it really?), with lots of minor API issues
  1087. # [21:56] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.89.218)
  1088. # [21:57] <Ms2ger> annevk, hmm?
  1089. # [21:58] * Quits: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B135994.dip.t-dialin.net)
  1090. # [21:58] <annevk> geez, BlobBuilder is still around
  1091. # [21:58] <annevk> !summon arun
  1092. # [21:59] <Ms2ger> Is that in HG already?
  1093. # [22:00] <annevk> oh it's not Arun
  1094. # [22:00] <annevk> it's from Eric
  1095. # [22:00] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/file-system/file-writer.html
  1096. # [22:00] <annevk> but I guess the idea was that it was going to http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileAPI/
  1097. # [22:01] <annevk> which has a constructor defined
  1098. # [22:01] <Ms2ger> Ah, /dap/
  1099. # [22:05] * Joins: kalc4 (~kalc4@host-78-148-89-60.as13285.net)
  1100. # [22:08] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  1101. # [22:09] * Quits: skylamer` (cgskylamer@78.90.213.55)
  1102. # [22:09] * Quits: RichardJ (~richard@node.liefcoden.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1103. # [22:12] * Joins: RichardJ (~richard@node.liefcoden.nl)
  1104. # [22:14] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GYDCCXLVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1105. # [22:18] * Joins: TabAtkins (tabatkins@nat/google/x-iiflcbmlupkyqooz)
  1106. # [22:19] <jgraham> gsnedders: No idea
  1107. # [22:19] * Quits: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-obwecsomfipcfsdz) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1108. # [22:19] * Quits: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-136-196.adsl.inetia.pl) (Quit: http://paste.uk.to/ec89ce9d)
  1109. # [22:19] * Joins: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-wdvaghldyxbomsqd)
  1110. # [22:21] <jgraham> rniwa: If you never learn anything else from Opera, learn that pixel based testing is a special form of hell
  1111. # [22:22] <rniwa> jgraham: we also do have pixel tests :)
  1112. # [22:22] <rniwa> jgraham: i know it's hard to maintain and all
  1113. # [22:22] <jgraham> Probably not in the same way we do :)
  1114. # [22:22] <rniwa> jgraham: but reftests have its own faults :\
  1115. # [22:22] <rniwa> jgraham: okay.
  1116. # [22:22] <rniwa> jgraham: we have pixel results for each port + platform though
  1117. # [22:22] <rniwa> jgraham: so we have something like 6-8 PNGs per test :(
  1118. # [22:23] <Ms2ger> rniwa, I think Opera has more platforms to test :)
  1119. # [22:23] <jgraham> We have a flexible system that allows an arbitary number of results per test :)
  1120. # [22:24] <rniwa> Ms2ger, jgraham: http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/platform/
  1121. # [22:24] <Ms2ger> Oh, I know
  1122. # [22:24] <rniwa> Ms2ger, jgraham: each one of them will have the same dir. structure as http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/
  1123. # [22:24] <rniwa> (except platform of course)
  1124. # [22:24] <rniwa> and contains -expected.png and/or -expected.txt
  1125. # [22:28] <jgraham> rniwa: I don't really understand the concern about not making "good enough" references
  1126. # [22:28] <jgraham> What are you testing here (I didn't read all the backscroll)
  1127. # [22:29] <rniwa> jgraham: so if we import a test from CSS test suite that doesn't have a reference
  1128. # [22:29] <rniwa> jgraham: and create our own home-brew reference file
  1129. # [22:30] <rniwa> jgraham: then there's a possibility that the reference file doesn't address all intents of the test
  1130. # [22:30] <rniwa> jgraham: i.e. it could fail to detect some bugs that the test author intended to test
  1131. # [22:36] * Joins: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B135994.dip.t-dialin.net)
  1132. # [22:40] <rniwa> jgraham: to be honest with you, i'm not even sure if this is a practical concern or not.
  1133. # [22:40] <rniwa> jgraham: we simply lack adequate experience with reftests
  1134. # [22:40] <Ms2ger> Fwiw, fantasai would be very happy to accept references
  1135. # [22:41] <rniwa> Ms2ger: for css 3?
  1136. # [22:41] <Ms2ger> 21
  1137. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> For all.
  1138. # [22:42] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, also, I'm looking forward to you speccing ::first-letter :)
  1139. # [22:42] <TabAtkins> Sigh. I'll get there at some point.
  1140. # [22:42] <TabAtkins> If fantasai doesn't beat me to it.
  1141. # [22:43] <Ms2ger> * fantasai didn't want to touch pseudo elements
  1142. # [22:43] <rniwa> Ms2ger: okay.
  1143. # [22:43] <Ms2ger> I'm afraid you're out of luck on that count
  1144. # [22:43] <TabAtkins> Damn. All right.
  1145. # [22:43] <TabAtkins> Well, I'll do Box Model at some point.
  1146. # [22:43] <TabAtkins> I'm thinking end of year.
  1147. # [22:43] <rniwa> Ms2ger, TabAtkins: can we convince CSS WG to convert the existing tests to reference tests?
  1148. # [22:43] <rniwa> it's a no laughing matter for us
  1149. # [22:43] <TabAtkins> rniwa: They don't need convincing, just manpower.
  1150. # [22:44] <Ms2ger> I believe the open source answer to that is "patches accepted" :)
  1151. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> We *hate* our existing non-reftests.
  1152. # [22:44] <rniwa> because we don't want to add a couple thousand * 8-10 PNG files to our repository
  1153. # [22:44] <rniwa> TabAtkins: but we've already had a proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2010Sep/0030.html
  1154. # [22:44] <rniwa> TabAtkins: why did we not do this back then?
  1155. # [22:44] <Ms2ger> "It would delay REC"
  1156. # [22:45] <rniwa> Ms2ger: so since it's it's already REC'ed, its okay to change it now?
  1157. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> rniwa: I presume Ms2ger is right.
  1158. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> And yes, now that 2.1 is back into errata mode, just poke at it again.
  1159. # [22:45] * ojan_away is now known as ojan
  1160. # [22:45] <Ms2ger> Unless Microsoft invents a new objection
  1161. # [22:47] <Ms2ger> Anyway, off for today
  1162. # [22:48] <rniwa> Ms2ger: LOL
  1163. # [22:48] <rniwa> Ms2ger: hopefully not.
  1164. # [22:48] <rniwa> TabAtkins: okay, let's do that.
  1165. # [22:48] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-148-108.dynamic.telemach.ba)
  1166. # [22:48] <rniwa> TabAtkins: it's totally worthwhile our time.
  1167. # [22:49] <rniwa> TabAtkins: since Ms2ger and others already have reference files!
  1168. # [22:49] <Ms2ger> Not a lot ;)
  1169. # [22:49] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.96.242) (Quit: nn)
  1170. # [22:49] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  1171. # [22:53] <jgraham> rniwa: Mostly it doesn't seem like a real issue
  1172. # [22:54] <rniwa> jgraham: WHAT IS?
  1173. # [22:54] <jgraham> The only problem is cases where there are multiple possible acceptable renderings
  1174. # [22:54] <rniwa> what is?*
  1175. # [22:54] <rniwa> jgraham: I see. yeah, that'll be tricky i guess.
  1176. # [22:54] <jgraham> The reference not capturing the full intent of the test
  1177. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Nah, you can provide tests with multiple acceptable refs.
  1178. # [22:54] <jgraham> I mean you could have the same problem with a pixel reference
  1179. # [22:54] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Depends how your test system is set up
  1180. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> Shepherd is set up to allow that.
  1181. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> Since we're discussing CSS tests. ^_^
  1182. # [22:55] <jgraham> The Opera system doesn't cope with that at the moment
  1183. # [22:55] <jgraham> Shepard is irrelevant
  1184. # [22:55] <jgraham> (sorry peter)
  1185. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> Is it Shepard or Shepherd?
  1186. # [22:56] <jgraham> Specifically it's irrelevant to browser vendors who all have home-grown testing solutions designed to meet the requirements of running tests every day
  1187. # [22:56] <jgraham> Ho you were right
  1188. # [22:56] <rniwa> jgraham: I'd appreciate it if you could give us some insights into pros and cons of reftests
  1189. # [22:56] <jgraham> I just can't spell and can't type
  1190. # [22:56] <jgraham> so I have errors**2
  1191. # [22:56] <rniwa> jgraham: in general, we totally lack any sort of expertise working with ref tests
  1192. # [22:56] <rniwa> since we hadn't had support 'til very recently
  1193. # [22:57] <rniwa> and even today, people don't write as much ref tests as they should
  1194. # [22:58] <jgraham> rniwa: Pros - They don't require changes when you do things like add a new platform or change your text rendering in some way
  1195. # [22:58] <jgraham> Cons - it can be more effort to think of a good reference
  1196. # [22:59] <jgraham> Sometimes the ref and test can match for the wrong reasons (but it is usually possible to catch this either with a single pixel based test or a well chosen negative ref)
  1197. # [22:59] <jgraham> (e.g. both could be blank)
  1198. # [23:00] <jgraham> The pros massively outweigh the cons (at least for us)
  1199. # [23:01] <rniwa> jgraham: ok.
  1200. # [23:01] * Quits: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
  1201. # [23:01] <rniwa> jgraham: can I quote you on that?
  1202. # [23:01] <jgraham> rniwa: Of course
  1203. # [23:01] <rniwa> jgraham: (webkit-dev)
  1204. # [23:01] <rniwa> jgraham: great. i might also cc you on the thread.
  1205. # [23:01] <rniwa> webkit needs someone with reftest knowledge badly :(
  1206. # [23:03] <jgraham> rniwa: For example we recently changed some of our font rendering bits and had to re-label 13,500 screenshots
  1207. # [23:03] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  1208. # [23:03] <rniwa> jgraham: LOL
  1209. # [23:03] <rniwa> jgraham: yeah... we have a similar issue.
  1210. # [23:03] <jgraham> Happily we had already converted 50% of all screenshot tests to reftests
  1211. # [23:03] <rniwa> jgraham: that's very nice.
  1212. # [23:04] <rniwa> jgraham: we definitely need to do that for some of our regression tests
  1213. # [23:04] <jgraham> Yeah, 25,000 tests wouldn't have been better :)
  1214. # [23:07] <rniwa> jgraham: right...
  1215. # [23:07] <rniwa> jgraham: although i think a good portion of our tests are js tests (i.e. text based)
  1216. # [23:08] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@65.93.94.10) (Quit: blast off!)
  1217. # [23:08] <rniwa> jgraham: so i think we have something like 10,000-15,000 pixel texts
  1218. # [23:08] <annevk> rniwa: "Daniel Glazman from Opera has tried adding reference files for W3C's:" euh, that was Geoffrey Sneddon ;)
  1219. # [23:08] <rniwa> annevk: oh oops :(
  1220. # [23:08] <rniwa> annevk: will post the correction
  1221. # [23:08] * Quits: rodd (~rodd@187.75.224.32) (Quit: Leaving)
  1222. # [23:09] <annevk> rniwa: also, I hope you succeed!
  1223. # [23:09] <rniwa> annevk: sorry about that :(
  1224. # [23:09] <jgraham> rniwa: Yes, most of our tests are js-based these days
  1225. # [23:09] <rniwa> annevk: i lost my IRC history prior to writing that email
  1226. # [23:10] <rniwa> jgraham: yeah js-based tests are nice :D
  1227. # [23:10] <rniwa> unless you introduce weird js regressions :(
  1228. # [23:10] <jgraham> Overwhhelmingly so if you go per-result rather than per-file (screenshot/reftests return 1 result per file, js tests typically many)
  1229. # [23:11] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1230. # [23:12] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  1231. # [23:13] <rniwa> jgraham, annevk: posted correction :)
  1232. # [23:14] <rniwa> jgraham: Thanks for the input. I really appreciate it.
  1233. # [23:15] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  1234. # [23:15] <rniwa> jgraham, annevk, TabAtkins: i think we should really posh the CSS WG to start accepting more reference files.
  1235. # [23:15] <rniwa> FWIW, we already have some reference files
  1236. # [23:15] * Quits: snowfox (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: snowfox)
  1237. # [23:15] <rniwa> and we're talking about creating one for each file we import
  1238. # [23:16] <rniwa> so WebKit community can contribute a bit in this area :)
  1239. # [23:16] * Joins: gwollon (~gwillen@adsl-66-218-37-112.dslextreme.com)
  1240. # [23:16] <rniwa> (of course, nothing is set in stone but things are looking good)
  1241. # [23:16] * Quits: NimeshNeema (u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-akzvoufnkiqcfbmw) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  1242. # [23:16] * Quits: gwillen (~gwillen@unaffiliated/gwillen) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  1243. # [23:16] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1244. # [23:16] <jgraham> rniwa: I think that the plan is for all CSS3 tests to be reftests
  1245. # [23:16] <jgraham> Certainly I will be unhappy if Opera start contributing non-reftests
  1246. # [23:16] <rniwa> jgraham: but we still need CSS 2.1 tests, right?
  1247. # [23:17] <rniwa> jgraham: or is the plan to replace the existing tests by new ones?
  1248. # [23:17] <jgraham> rniwa: Well in reality yes, in W3C land, no
  1249. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> Ideally we'll replace all the existing W3C CSS2.1 tests with refs.
  1250. # [23:17] <jgraham> (that was an answer to your first question)
  1251. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> Or at least, all the ones for which that is possible.
  1252. # [23:17] * Joins: NimeshNeema (u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dygnfxcabakqkrwz)
  1253. # [23:18] <rniwa> TabAtkins: right. that's what we wanna do.
  1254. # [23:18] <rniwa> jgraham: could you elaborate a little?
  1255. # [23:18] <rniwa> jgraham: are you saying that people at CSS WG doesn't want to make any changes to CSS2.1?
  1256. # [23:18] <jgraham> rniwa: We always need new tests that cover previously untested parts of a spec
  1257. # [23:18] <rniwa> jgraham: or are they regarding CSS2.1 tests to be obsolete once CSS3 is REC'ed?
  1258. # [23:18] <rniwa> jgraham: right.
  1259. # [23:19] <jgraham> rniwa: But there is no Process requirement for further CSS 2.1 tests
  1260. # [23:19] <rniwa> jgraham: but what about parts that are specified by the older spec?
  1261. # [23:19] * Quits: gwollon (~gwillen@adsl-66-218-37-112.dslextreme.com) (Changing host)
  1262. # [23:19] * Joins: gwollon (~gwillen@unaffiliated/gwillen)
  1263. # [23:19] * gwollon is now known as gwillen
  1264. # [23:19] <jgraham> Since it is in Rec.
  1265. # [23:19] <jgraham> (iirc)
  1266. # [23:19] <rniwa> jgraham: so you're saying that W3C won't accept any changes?
  1267. # [23:19] <jgraham> I think they likely will
  1268. # [23:20] <rniwa> jgraham: okay. so we can just do that, no?
  1269. # [23:20] <jgraham> But there isn't a great deal of motivation for people to do the work
  1270. # [23:20] <rniwa> jgraham: I see.
  1271. # [23:20] <jgraham> From the W3C side
  1272. # [23:20] <jgraham> But TabAtkins will know more about the CSSWG
  1273. # [23:20] <rniwa> jgraham: well, but i think we'll do the most of the work to create reference files though?
  1274. # [23:20] <rniwa> jgraham: i guess W3C folks just need to review them
  1275. # [23:21] <jgraham> Hopefully we can get ref equivalents to the existing tests, yes
  1276. # [23:21] <rniwa> if you're saying that they're not willing to review those reference files, then that'll be a problem...
  1277. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> Yes, the primary problem is having someone with the time and motivation to generate all the refs.
  1278. # [23:21] <rniwa> but i'm hoping that if enough browser vendors show enough interests, we can convince the WG to spend some time on it
  1279. # [23:21] <rniwa> TabAtkins: i think we're going to do it
  1280. # [23:22] <rniwa> TabAtkins: at least that's what we've been discussing at webkit-dev
  1281. # [23:22] <rniwa> TabAtkins: we're more concerned with how we upstream changes, etc...
  1282. # [23:22] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  1283. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> Cool.
  1284. # [23:22] <rniwa> TabAtkins: I think everyone's agreeing that converting them on W3C repository is the best solution if we could do it without much overhead
  1285. # [23:23] <rniwa> TabAtkins: althoug htere's some disagreement as to whether that should happen before or after we import tests in webkit
  1286. # [23:23] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1287. # [23:29] * Quits: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@mau49-1-82-245-46-173.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: tzing)
  1288. # [23:37] <jgraham> rniwa: (my message to webkit-dev bounced since I'm not subscribed)
  1289. # [23:37] <rniwa> jgraham: oh oops.
  1290. # [23:37] <rniwa> i think someone needs to approve it
  1291. # [23:37] <rniwa> (unfortuantely i don't have a privilege to do it)
  1292. # [23:38] * Joins: brandon (~zbgureshp@thunkers.net)
  1293. # [23:45] <rniwa> jgraham: I've just forwarded your email instead.
  1294. # [23:45] <rniwa> jgraham: thanks for the replay btw
  1295. # [23:47] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  1296. # [23:49] * rniwa is thrilled about the prospect that we can make a big step forward here
  1297. # [23:52] <jgraham> rniwa: Thanks
  1298. # [23:55] * Quits: timmywil (~timmywil@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  1299. # Session Close: Fri Apr 13 00:00:00 2012

The end :)