/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-04-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 18 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  23. # [00:33] <zewt> Hixie: where should I file a bug for the CSS "balanced" word wrapping mode for WebVTT? (http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-December/034026.html)
  24. # [00:33] <zewt> (unless it's already filed; dunno)
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  26. # [00:34] <zewt> (if that has to go to the CSSWG or something, then I'll let somebody familiar with them deal with it)
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  30. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> zewt: That (or things like that) have been proposed before, but it's an O(n^2) algorithm to do.
  31. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> And thus kinda hard to put in CSS, in case people apply it to their whole page, filled with large paragraphs.
  32. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> If we put it into Text, it'd have to be something that UAs are allowed to ignore.
  33. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Send it to www-style with a title starting with "[css4-text]"
  34. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> fantasai says it was previously in Text 3, but it was badly-defined.
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  36. # [00:50] <zewt> seems like it shouldn't need to be exponential, at least naively
  37. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> It's not exponential. It's n^2.
  38. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> That's polynomial, dude.
  39. # [00:51] <zewt> not particularly interested in dealing with more mailing lists, though
  40. # [00:51] <zewt> d00d
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  44. # [01:01] <Matt______> is there a webrtc api for sending text/data to other browsers, and not just video and audio? kinda like p2p websockets? I remember reading that webrtc had the ability to send data, and not only video/audio, but I couldn't find much more information on the topic
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  61. # [01:37] <Matt______> with regards to my question earlier, I found that instead of webrtc, you could just use shared workers
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  63. # [01:38] <WeirdAl> hi arun :)
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  71. # [01:50] <zewt> https://zewt.org/~glenn/wrapping.py naive attempt at balanced wrapping; linear time on the length of the string
  72. # [01:51] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  73. # [01:58] <TabAtkins> Ah, yes, indeed. I forgot that the n^2 part comes in when you try to balance the justification, too.
  74. # [01:58] <TabAtkins> The problem is still actually n^2 even with your simple attempt if you want *perfect* balancing.
  75. # [01:58] <zewt> "perfect or nothing" is the cause of more useless programmer headaches :)
  76. # [01:58] <TabAtkins> But if you're willing to accept somewhat non-optimal solutions, a greedy algorithm does well in non-degenerate cases and is linear.
  77. # [01:59] <zewt> i'll always take a suboptimal solution over none at all
  78. # [02:00] <zewt> (and I doubt it's suboptimal enough to matter)
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  81. # [02:07] <TabAtkins> zewt: ...why are you calculating the width of a word by summing the index of each letter in the alphabet?
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  83. # [02:09] <zewt> the "widths" is just a fake character-width mapping; the values are only chosen to be non-random
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  88. # [02:12] <TabAtkins> Ah, okay. It's not very useful as a demonstration, then, since they're very off (and the first part of the alphabet is negative-width).
  89. # [02:13] <zewt> well, it's outputting in a fixed-width terminal, so it's not going to look like it really would anyway, heh
  90. # [02:13] <zewt> (also in reality you've got kerning, etc. to cope with)
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  173. # [07:57] <Von_Davidicus> I have just learned that using HTML5 + SVG alleviates an inconsistency in browser implementation of JavaScript.
  174. # [07:58] <Von_Davidicus> Specifically, whether or not to include the SVG prefix.
  175. # [08:00] <Von_Davidicus> Some browsers (like Firefox and Internet Explorer) say "Thou Shalt." Others (like Opera, Chrome, and Safari) say "Thou Shan't."
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  177. # [08:05] <Von_Davidicus> Since you don't need to use the prefix in HTML5, it becomes a non-issue.
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  194. # [08:58] <hsivonen> yeah, I should review dglazkov's parser change proposal. sorry about the delay.
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  197. # [09:01] <hsivonen> so when a parser gets aborted, the document's readyState in Gecko goes from "loading" to "complete" without going through "interactive"
  198. # [09:01] <hsivonen> is there any spec-based justification for that?
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  206. # [09:10] <annevk> hmm
  207. # [09:10] <annevk> html5.org gives 500 errors
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  210. # [09:11] <hsivonen> hg blame points to sicking for the readyState oddity, but he's on vacation. :-(
  211. # [09:12] <Hixie> hsivonen: looks like the spec doesn't change readyState when the parser is aborted
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  213. # [09:12] <Hixie> i doubt this is an especially well tested area of the spec though
  214. # [09:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: not even to "complete"?
  215. # [09:12] <Hixie> nothing mentions changing it when a document or parser is aborted
  216. # [09:13] <Hixie> you also don't fire 'load', etc
  217. # [09:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: I tought data was discarded from the parser but the parser still went through "the end"
  218. # [09:13] <hsivonen> *thought even
  219. # [09:13] <Hixie> oh hm maybe, let me check again
  220. # [09:13] * Joins: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@81.46.72.86.rev.sfr.net)
  221. # [09:14] <Hixie> no, "abort a parser" doesn't really do anything except a hard stop
  222. # [09:14] <Hixie> again, though, this may be severely undertested
  223. # [09:15] <hsivonen> this spec thing was supposed to spare me of testing what other browsers do
  224. # [09:16] <Hixie> well you're welcome to do what the spec says :-)
  225. # [09:17] <Hixie> if everyone does that, then we'll all be interoperable :_)
  226. # [09:17] <annevk> hmm
  227. # [09:17] <annevk> so both Unicode and the utf-8 RFC don't say anything about five and six byte sequences anymore
  228. # [09:17] <nesta_> good morning! :)
  229. # [09:17] <annevk> morning
  230. # [09:17] <annevk> guess that makes the case of having a utf-8 decoder in the spec more compelling
  231. # [09:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: I doubt I'd get r+ for leaving readyState to "loading" when the throbber has stopped
  232. # [09:18] <annevk> Hixie: btw, any concerns about integrating with http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/Overview.html in due course?
  233. # [09:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: without proof of other browsers doing so
  234. # [09:18] <annevk> Hixie: quite a lot of the encoding related stuff would be simplified per my analysis
  235. # [09:19] <Hixie> hsivonen: convince another browser to follow the spec first? :-)
  236. # [09:19] <Hixie> annevk: sgtm
  237. # [09:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'd still have to test the other browser
  238. # [09:19] <Hixie> hsivonen: you could hope they wrote the tests as part of checking in the code
  239. # [09:20] <Hixie> annevk: "The Encoding" lol
  240. # [09:20] <Hixie> annevk: wasn't there some punctuation stripping on encoding names too?
  241. # [09:24] <annevk> no, just whitespace
  242. # [09:24] <annevk> it used to be punctuation and we changed that because it was incompatible
  243. # [09:24] <Hixie> ah k
  244. # [09:25] * Joins: charlvn (~charlvn@2002:8259:81f2::1)
  245. # [09:25] <Hixie> this is pretty awesome
  246. # [09:25] <Hixie> basically means i can drop all mention of the IANA charset registry, right?
  247. # [09:25] <annevk> yes
  248. # [09:25] <Hixie> fantastic!
  249. # [09:25] <annevk> and the special utf-8 text
  250. # [09:25] * Hixie claps his hands
  251. # [09:26] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  252. # [09:29] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  253. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> annevk: http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/?doc=data%3Atext%2Fhtml%3Bcharset%3Dutf-8%2C%3C%21doctype%2520html%3E%250D%250A%3Ctitle%3E%3C%252Ftitle%3E%250D%250A%3Cinput%2520type%253Dimage%2520value%253Dfoo%2520alt%253Dbar%3E&showsource=yes
  254. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> now with highlighting
  255. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: ↑
  256. # [09:31] <zcorpan> :thumbsup:
  257. # [09:32] <zcorpan> "formnovalidate" gets split on two lines for me
  258. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> yeah, I noticed that problem in opera
  259. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> I don't know how to fix that
  260. # [09:32] <annevk> nice
  261. # [09:33] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek)
  262. # [09:34] <hsivonen> Objection and revert request at the HTML WG over dropping IANA registry mention coming up in 1, 2, 3, ...
  263. # [09:35] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: .inputattrname { word-wrap:normal }
  264. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: OK, will make that change
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  268. # [09:46] <jgraham> hsivonen: BTW if you were going to write some tests for this, I would be especially interested in them :)
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  270. # [09:48] <zcorpan> heycam|away: why does Array[] conversion from JS value to IDL value not accept a user object like {'0':'foo', 'length':1}? (it uses the same rule as sequence<T> which throws TypeError for user objects, if i'm reading it correctly)
  271. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: can you please re-check and confirm if that wrapping problem is fixed?
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  273. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> btw, I couldn't reproduce that in Opera on OSX
  274. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> only on Opera Mobile
  275. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> maybe it's a Linux bug
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  278. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: when you have a minute to look at http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/?doc=data%3Atext%2Fhtml%3Bcharset%3Dutf-8%2C%3C%21doctype%2520html%3E%250D%250A%3Ctitle%3E%3C%252Ftitle%3E%250D%250A%3Cinput%2520type%253Dimage%2520value%253Dfoo%2520alt%253Dbar%3E&showsource=yes please let me know what you think
  279. # [09:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: cool
  280. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> will send you the patch
  281. # [09:59] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: since <input> is special-cased, did you actively decide to list all the attributes for <input> instead of showing a pruned list for each <input type=foo>?
  282. # [09:59] <hsivonen> (I'm not suggesting that either is the right way. Just wondering what was considered.)
  283. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> I did consider listing only the ones for each type, but it seems useful to have them all shown in context, so that the user can see where they are allowed and not allowed
  284. # [10:00] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i have OS X
  285. # [10:00] <hsivonen> actually, showing them all is probably a good way to pre-empt "but <input> does have attribute foo. the validator is wrong"
  286. # [10:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. let's get this landed
  287. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: bingo
  288. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> OK
  289. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: strange. I couldn't reproduce it in either 11.6 nor Opera.Next
  290. # [10:01] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: did you try making the window narrower?
  291. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> ah
  292. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> yeah, that's right
  293. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> I was just looking at in at normal width
  294. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: OK, yeah, so it does seem to be fixed now. Right?
  295. # [10:04] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: class="highlight" the semanticists and accessibility-ists will haunt you :-)
  296. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> heh
  297. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> I guess I should change that
  298. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> suggestions?
  299. # [10:05] <zcorpan> source highlight uses <b>
  300. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> hmm, "highlight" is not presentational
  301. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> anyway, I can tweak that stuff later I guess
  302. # [10:06] <annevk> hsivonen: lets see what happens to https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16768
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  304. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: patch sent
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  308. # [10:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Java could use some syntactic sugar for literal initializers for collections...
  309. # [10:22] <hsivonen> JavaScript FTW
  310. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> heh
  311. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  314. # [10:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks. reviewed.
  315. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  320. # [10:59] <hsivonen> pulseaudio got memes. still waiting for Opera and IE: http://pulseaudiomemes.tumblr.com/
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  344. # [11:59] <hsivonen> is there a JS-exposed way to abort a document without immediately causing navigation away from the document?
  345. # [12:01] <annevk> there was window.stop() at some point I thought
  346. # [12:01] <annevk> hmm
  347. # [12:02] <annevk> "The stop() method on Window objects should, if there is an existing attempt to navigate the browsing context and that attempt is not currently running the unload a document algorithm, cancel that navigation and any associated instances of the fetch algorithm. Otherwise, it must do nothing."
  348. # [12:02] <annevk> I forgot whether it's called navigating if a document is loading
  349. # [12:02] <jgraham> Yeah I was thinking the same
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  351. # [12:03] <jgraham> I'm not sure if "cancel the navigation" is the same as "abort the document"
  352. # [12:04] <jgraham> Seems like it isn't per spec
  353. # [12:05] <jgraham> Or at least, I don't really know how "cancel the navigation" is defined
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  355. # [12:06] <jgraham> But the navigation algorithm cancels previous navigations and aborts as a seperate step
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  359. # [12:07] <hsivonen> readyState in Firefox is flaky, episode 42: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1478
  360. # [12:08] <hsivonen> I'm increasingly unhappy about readyState support landing without thorough assertions
  361. # [12:08] <hsivonen> bonus points for test cases
  362. # [12:10] <hsivonen> the above case I fixed for Firefox 14
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  364. # [12:11] <jgraham> hsivonen: Can we expect to you make a W3C-sharable testsuite gor this (hint ;)
  365. # [12:11] <jgraham> *for
  366. # [12:12] <hsivonen> jgraham: not a safe expectation, unfortanately
  367. # [12:13] <hsivonen> I do plan to add fatal-in-debug-builds assertions to make sure people don't get to regress this stuff easily
  368. # [12:18] * jgraham is pretty sure that the Mozilla Manifesto requires writing sharable tests ;)
  369. # [12:18] <hsivonen> Opera Next fires onload after window.stop()
  370. # [12:18] <hsivonen> Firefox and Chrome don't
  371. # [12:19] <hsivonen> Chrome transitions to readyState == "complete" synchronously upon window.stop(), which worries me
  372. # [12:19] <hsivonen> I'd expect a transition to "interactive" and an async transition to "complete" later
  373. # [12:19] <jgraham> The Opera thing sounds like a bug
  374. # [12:20] <hsivonen> jgraham: shareable test case: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1479
  375. # [12:20] <annevk> why should load not fire?
  376. # [12:20] <hsivonen> I believe the Mozilla Manifesto doesn't require filing Opera bugs after pointing them out on IRC :-)
  377. # [12:21] <jgraham> hsivonen: Point :)
  378. # [12:21] <jgraham> annevk: Why would it?
  379. # [12:21] <hsivonen> IE9 doesn't support window.stop()
  380. # [12:21] <annevk> jgraham: nothing delays the load event anymore
  381. # [12:23] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com)
  382. # [12:23] <annevk> kind of depends on how all the algorithms hook into each other of course
  383. # [12:23] <annevk> there's quite a lot of them
  384. # [12:23] <jgraham> annevk: Where is the load event fired?
  385. # [12:23] <annevk> when you stop parsing
  386. # [12:24] <hsivonen> I expected the load event not to fire when aborting
  387. # [12:24] <annevk> well an async process is started at that point
  388. # [12:24] <jgraham> Hmm, maybe that is still called if you abort the navigation then
  389. # [12:24] <jgraham> s/abort/cancel/
  390. # [12:24] <hsivonen> window.stop() in Gecko and WebKit seems to abort
  391. # [12:24] <jgraham> But "cancel the navigation" isn't obviously well defined
  392. # [12:24] <hsivonen> at least superficially
  393. # [12:25] <hsivonen> I'm going to be unhappy if Facebook depends on the details of this stuff
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  395. # [12:28] <hsivonen> boo. IE10 doesn't support window.stop()
  396. # [12:28] <smaug____> what?
  397. # [12:28] <hsivonen> smaug____: Object doesn't support property or method 'stop' on line 3
  398. # [12:28] <jgraham> So does anyone disagree that "cancel the navigation" is undefined? If so, where is it defined? Otherwise I will file a bug
  399. # [12:29] <hsivonen> which browsers fire event for readyState transitions?
  400. # [12:29] <hsivonen> *events
  401. # [12:30] <hsivonen> do any?
  402. # [12:31] <hsivonen> Chrome does
  403. # [12:31] <hsivonen> even worse, it looks like it indeed transitions straight from "loading" to "complete"
  404. # [12:32] <hsivonen> sigh. is skipping "interactive" in some cases an IEism that Gecko and WebKit emulate?
  405. # [12:34] <gsnedders> hsivonen: We have interactive
  406. # [12:34] <gsnedders> (Gmaps relies on it, or did)
  407. # [12:35] <hsivonen> gsnedders: "interactive" in what situation?
  408. # [12:36] <hsivonen> gsnedders: WebKit and Gecko skip "interactive" in *some* situations
  409. # [12:36] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Dunno. Not looked at the code :)
  410. # [12:36] <hsivonen> gsnedders: Gecko skips it when a parser is aborted or when an XSLT transform fails to compile
  411. # [12:36] <hsivonen> the former seemed to be an intentional change by sicking
  412. # [12:36] <hsivonen> the latter seems like an oversight
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  414. # [12:37] <hsivonen> Chrome skips "interactive" when calling window.stop() from a script-created document
  415. # [12:38] <hsivonen> I'd like documents not to skip "interactive" unless Web compat requires "interactive" to be skipped sometimes
  416. # [12:39] <hsivonen> because skipping "interactive" makes it unclear if there's a browser bug or an intentional skip
  417. # [12:41] <hsivonen> readyState is one of those things that seem simple on surface but are a huge mess when you start investigating what's going on
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  424. # [13:12] <annevk> if you do set([...]) and you get TypeError: 'dict' object is not callable in Python what is going on?
  425. # [13:17] <zcorpan> annevk: i see 16 cp1250 encoding declarations in web200904
  426. # [13:18] <zcorpan> 10 of which are in the http header
  427. # [13:18] <annevk> yeah, labels are somewhat conservative at the moment
  428. # [13:18] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Encoding#Labels
  429. # [13:19] <annevk> the reason is probably because in one browser nothing happened for that label
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  431. # [13:19] <annevk> right
  432. # [13:19] <annevk> Internet Explorer
  433. # [13:19] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GYDCCXLVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  434. # [13:20] <annevk> Had all these as labels for "obviouslyfake" in my single-byte encoding research: csiso88598i, iso8859-11, iso8859-10, iso8859-14, csisolatin6, l6, obviouslyfake3, iso-8859-8-e, obviouslyfake2, iso8859-3, cp1255, iso8859-7, iso8859-5, cp1254, iso8859-9, iso8859-8, mac, cp1253, x-mac-roman, csmacintosh, iso-8859-16, iso8859-6, iso8859-13, iso-8859-6-e, iso-8859-6-i, iso8859-4, iso-ir-157, iso8859-15, cp1257, iso-8859-14, cp1251, cp1250, cp1258,
  435. # [13:20] <annevk> latin6, iso-8859-10
  436. # [13:22] <hasather> annevk: did you overwrite `set` with a dict?
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  438. # [13:22] <annevk> less conservative is probably okay, but you cannot be liberal, recognizing euc_jp as euc-jp is wrong
  439. # [13:22] <zcorpan> $ grep -aPih "text/html\s*;\s*charset\s*=\s*[\"']?(866|ansi_x3.4-1986|asmo-708|cn-gb|cp1250|cp1251|cp1252|cp1254|cp1257|cp367|cp50220|cp51932|cp819|cp932|cp936|csascii|cscp50220|cscp51932|cseuckr|cseucpkdfmtjapanese|csibm866|csinvariant|csiso646basic1983|csiso88596e|csiso88596i|iso-8859-6-i|csiso88598e|csiso88598i|cskoi8r|csunicode|csunicode11|csunicode11utf7|utf-7|csunicodeascii|csunicodejapanese|csunicodelatin1|csviscii|viscii|c
  440. # [13:22] <zcorpan> cn|euc-tw|euc-tw|extended_unix_code_packed_format_for_japanese|ibm367|ibm819|invariant|iso-10646|iso-10646-j-1|iso-10646-ucs-2|iso-10646-ucs-basic|iso-10646-unicode-latin1|iso-2022-cn|iso-2022-cn|iso-2022-jp-1|iso-2022-jp-1|iso-8859-6-e|iso-8859-6-i|iso-8859-6-i|iso-8859-8-e|iso-celtic|iso-ir-100|iso-ir-199|iso-ir-226|iso-ir-6|iso646-us|iso8859-11|iso8859-12|iso-8859-12|iso8859-13|iso8859-15|iso8859-16|iso8859-3|iso8859-4|iso8859-
  441. # [13:22] <zcorpan> 859-7|iso8859-8|iso8859-9|iso88591|iso885910|iso885911|iso885912|iso-8859-12|iso885913|iso885914|iso885915|iso885916|iso88592|iso88593|iso88594|iso88595|iso88596|iso88597|iso88598|iso88599|iso_646.basic:1983|iso_646.irv:1991|iso_8859-10:1992|iso_8859-14|iso_8859-14:1998|iso_8859-16|iso_8859-16:2001|iso_8859-1:1987|iso_8859-2:1987|iso_8859-3:1988|iso_8859-4:1988|iso_8859-5:1988|iso_8859-6-e|iso_8859-6-i|iso-8859-6-i|iso_8859-6:1987
  442. # [13:22] <zcorpan> |iso_8859-8-e|iso_8859-8-i|iso_8859-8:1988|iso_8859-9|iso_8859-9:1989|ks_c_5601-1987|l10|l8|latin-9|latin10|latin8|microsoft-cp1250|microsoft-cp1251|microsoft-cp1252|microsoft-cp1253|microsoft-cp1254|microsoft-cp1255|microsoft-cp1256|microsoft-cp1257|microsoft-cp1258|ms932|ms936|ref|sjis|tis-620-2533|unicode-1-1|unicode-1-1-utf-7|utf-7|us|utf-7|utf-7|viscii|viscii|windows-936|x-cp1252|x-cp1253|x-cp1254|x-cp1255|x-cp1256|x-cp1257|x
  443. # [13:22] <zcorpan> |x-mac-ce|x-mac-greek|x-mac-greek|x-mac-turkish|x-mac-turkish|x-user-defined|x-user-defined)" web200904 > labels.txt
  444. # [13:23] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  445. # [13:23] <annevk> hasather: thanks, thought it was scoped to the for loop
  446. # [13:24] <annevk> thanks zcorpan
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  449. # [13:40] <annevk> zcorpan: what does -aPih mean here?
  450. # [13:43] <zcorpan> annevk: see grep --help
  451. # [13:43] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/dump/encoding-labels/
  452. # [13:45] <zcorpan> cp1250: 9 ... hmm, the original grep found 16
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  455. # [13:46] <zcorpan> cp1254: 10646
  456. # [13:46] <zcorpan> maybe the python counter is bogus
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  458. # [13:50] <zcorpan> changed
  459. # [13:51] * smaug____ wants better map services. Although Bing map is mostly great, satellite pictures should get updated daily
  460. # [13:52] <smaug____> ...so that I could check whether certain lake still has ice
  461. # [13:52] <zcorpan> hmm. the grep is also bogus...
  462. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, as far as open validator stuff, a while back you said you were planning to land the VerifierCommandLine code from the pfalcon bitbucket fork. You still planning on doing that?
  463. # [13:59] <annevk> cp1254: 10646 is kind of alarming
  464. # [13:59] <zcorpan> yeah that was bogus, got 10 in the second run :-)
  465. # [14:01] <zcorpan> annevk: ok now the data should be more accurate
  466. # [14:02] <zcorpan> "us" had a high number previously, but is now 0, because the previous grep didn't check the next char so picked up "us" in e.g. "us-ascii"
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  468. # [14:03] <annevk> sweet thanks
  469. # [14:03] <zcorpan> np
  470. # [14:04] <annevk> ideally we do a similar run over the top 1 million pages with help from foolip
  471. # [14:04] <foolip> annevk, zcorpan, to collect encoding label statistics?
  472. # [14:05] <annevk> yeah
  473. # [14:05] <annevk> to see if there's any labels that might be worth adding
  474. # [14:05] <annevk> though we'd have to be careful with adding false-positives
  475. # [14:06] <foolip> yeah, it wouldn't be hard to modify the script to get ~5 pages per domain, but I guess extracting the labels is the hard bit, currently I just use a regexp
  476. # [14:06] <zcorpan> we could grep for *all* labels
  477. # [14:06] <foolip> all labels in which list?
  478. # [14:06] <zcorpan> all labels that are specified in the wild
  479. # [14:06] <zcorpan> no list
  480. # [14:06] <foolip> right, so the problem becomes writing the encoding sniffing per spec, which I haven't done
  481. # [14:07] * Philip` imagines it might be worth running the data through an HTML parser so you can look for <meta http-equiv=content-type ...> more reliably
  482. # [14:07] <foolip> right, that might work, even if it isn't exactly what the spec does
  483. # [14:08] <annevk> might also be slow
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  486. # [14:08] <Philip`> Parsing in Java is fast
  487. # [14:08] <foolip> yeah, the spec sniffing of the first 1024 bytes should be fast and allow you to close the connection without getting the entire resource, if that's what you want
  488. # [14:09] <Philip`> (where "fast" is like tens of thousands of pages per minute, if I remember correctly)
  489. # [14:10] <foolip> well, I guess whoever writes the code will decide :)
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  501. # [14:34] <zcorpan> annevk: now the data says 16 for cp1250
  502. # [14:34] <zcorpan> annevk: i forgot to do a case-insensitive regexp in the python script
  503. # [14:35] <annevk> ah k
  504. # [14:35] <annevk> have done that too
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  507. # [14:36] <annevk> some of the weird long ones are relatively common too
  508. # [14:37] <zcorpan> annevk: 'utf-7' is present 5 times in http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Encoding#Labels
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  513. # [14:39] <annevk> zcorpan: yeah I used some internal data
  514. # [14:40] <annevk> zcorpan: that encoding cannot be activated on the web
  515. # [14:41] <annevk> still used for email I think
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  517. # [14:43] <annevk> zcorpan: is it hard to get a list of URLs along with http://simon.html5.org/dump/encoding-labels/label-count.txt ?
  518. # [14:47] * toyoshiAw is now known as toyoshim
  519. # [14:47] <annevk> AryehGregor++ for https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=702948
  520. # [14:48] <annevk> AryehGregor: might be interesting for NodeIterator too
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  522. # [14:50] <zcorpan> annevk: shouldn't be too hard
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  530. # [15:03] <gsnedders> Does it make me a bad computer scientist to end up hating thinking about data structures, unsure what to use?
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  535. # [15:06] <annevk> gsnedders: just means you need more practice :)
  536. # [15:07] <annevk> gsnedders: fwiw, I have that each time I write scripts for research
  537. # [15:08] <Philip`> gsnedders: A good computer scientist would just list the big-O complexity of every possible data structure and pick whichever one is smallest
  538. # [15:08] * Parts: zcorpan (~zcorpan@node-7ahkyhx2uvj1e9bb0.a0.ipv6.opera.com)
  539. # [15:09] <jgraham> And then use it on sets of 2 items
  540. # [15:10] <gsnedders> Philip`: Ah, I'm down to everything being O(n), but with vastly different perf in Python (although fairly similar in C).
  541. # [15:11] <jgraham> hsivonen: You might like to look at http://w3c-test.org/html/tests/submission/Opera/documentwrite/ Not that Gecko fails (m)any (although some seem to fail if you run them in an iframe, at least on my system, although it could be a cache issue after I fixed some bugs in the tests)
  542. # [15:13] <Philip`> gsnedders: A good computer scientist would ignore constant factors - they're just a trivial implementation detail
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  545. # [15:13] <gsnedders> Philip`: :)
  546. # [15:14] <gsnedders> Philip`: Problem I think is the big-O complexity of Python built-ins…
  547. # [15:14] <jgraham> So… you didn't actually make everything O(N)?
  548. # [15:15] <jgraham> Pretty sure not knowing what data structure/algorithm you are *actually* using makes you a bad computer scientist, yes :)
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  550. # [15:15] <gsnedders> jgraham: I think not :(
  551. # [15:16] <gsnedders> Working out the complexity of algorithms where you don't know what the complexity of operations on the interpreter builtins are is hard.
  552. # [15:16] <gsnedders> Esp. because it's an impl-detail of the interpreter.
  553. # [15:16] <jgraham> That is kind of silly
  554. # [15:16] <gsnedders> Okay, so I can probably care most about CPython, but still.
  555. # [15:16] <jgraham> Clojure has the right idea
  556. # [15:16] <gsnedders> jgraham: ?
  557. # [15:16] <Philip`> gsnedders: By your logic, surely any algorithm could be described as O(1), just with the problem that it's a constant number of built-in operations that don't have constant cost themselves
  558. # [15:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yes.
  559. # [15:17] <gsnedders> (Provided any problem > O(1) has a solution as a built-in)
  560. # [15:17] <gsnedders> (or sequence thereof)
  561. # [15:18] <gsnedders> (which surely isn't certain?)
  562. # [15:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: The built-in data structures in clojure all have a stated complexity for each operation they support
  563. # [15:18] <gsnedders> jgraham: Ah.
  564. # [15:18] <Philip`> (You can just add a built-in solveAlgorithm582() function to your language)
  565. # [15:18] <jgraham> That is the only fact I know about clojure
  566. # [15:18] <jgraham> Well apart from the fact that it is a lisp that runs on the jvm
  567. # [15:19] <Philip`> C++ STL typically states complexity too, which is nice
  568. # [15:19] <jgraham> and that it looks like it is quite fun
  569. # [15:19] <jgraham> On the other hand C++ STL only just got a hash table type
  570. # [15:21] <Philip`> There's been generally compatible vendor-specific ones for years, and Boost's one that I think the standard got based on, so that's a mostly theoretical problem if you don't care about extreme portability
  571. # [15:21] <gsnedders> (And if you care about extreme portability, plenty of embedded devices don't have the STL anyway)
  572. # [15:22] <jgraham> OTOH as a C++ beginner, none of that is at all obvious
  573. # [15:23] <jgraham> Well itg is pretty obvious that someone would have implemented hash tables somewhere
  574. # [15:23] * Philip` likes that boost::unordered_map lets you do lookups using a key object that's not the same as the unordered_map's actual key type (assuming compatible hash and equality functions)
  575. # [15:24] <jgraham> … why?
  576. # [15:24] <Philip`> It means you can e.g. have a std::string key type (which does automatic memory management), but do lookups using a char*, so you don't have to do an allocation to construct the key for every lookup
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  578. # [15:25] <jgraham> Oh, that's quite neat
  579. # [15:25] <jgraham> Or really stupid, hard to tell which :)
  580. # [15:26] <jgraham> Presumably you don't just use a std::string* for both because you want the hash table to own the strings, or something?
  581. # [15:26] <gsnedders> I guess theoretically the complexity of operations could vary between CPU architectures, too, but that's probably caring too much.
  582. # [15:27] <annevk> foolip: btw, I can volunteer for writing that algorithm in Python
  583. # [15:27] <annevk> foolip: not Java
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  586. # [15:28] <Philip`> jgraham: Yeah, you don't want to have to manually free pointers inside complex data structures, because that usually becomes an ugly mess and will leak everywhere
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  588. # [15:30] <Philip`> (whereas using std::string means it'll automatically deal with all the copying and freeing, and would only be noticeably inefficient if you're modifying the structure heavily and causing a load of copies, and isn't a problem if you're primarily doing lookups)
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  592. # [15:44] <zcorpan> annevk: http://simon.html5.org/dump/encoding-labels/labels-urls.txt
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  605. # [16:08] <zcorpan> first interesting url, cp1251, http://www.b2blogger.com/pressroom/tag/%F7%E0%F1%F2%ED%FB%E9%20%EA%EB%E8%E5%ED%F2
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  608. # [16:13] <annevk> zewt: lower boundary does not work with interval I think
  609. # [16:13] <annevk> zewt: as lower boundary can be greater than 0x10FFFF
  610. # [16:14] <annevk> zewt: also, where is this interval syntax defined?
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  613. # [16:15] <zewt> where is the phrase "greater than" defined? :)
  614. # [16:17] <zewt> [0x200000,0x10FFFF] works, and is empty
  615. # [16:17] <zewt> probably easy enough to define (havn't looked through the other encoders/decoders much so I don't know if there's enough cases for it to be worth it)
  616. # [16:25] <matjas> what does the TR in W3C spec URLs stand for? e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/
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  618. # [16:26] <zcorpan> Technical Report
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  620. # [16:28] <zcorpan> or at least i think it used to, now TR/ says "All Standards and Drafts"
  621. # [16:28] <annevk> yup
  622. # [16:29] <annevk> zewt: there's quite a few of those, especially with bytes
  623. # [16:29] <annevk> zewt: just search for "to 0x"
  624. # [16:29] <annevk> zewt: still a bit skeptical since I don't like how that looks, but maybe
  625. # [16:30] <annevk> zewt: also, "greater than" is way different from [0x40,0x50] :)
  626. # [16:33] <MikeSmith> jgraham, annevk : please remind me how to fix this anolis problem
  627. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> anolis --dump-xrefs=data/xrefs/dom/crypto.json Overview.src.html /tmp/spec
  628. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'data/xrefs/dom/crypto.json'
  629. # [16:34] <matjas> zcorpan, annevk: ty
  630. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> I thought what --dump-xrefs=data/xrefs/dom/crypto.json does is to create the data/xrefs/dom/crypto.json file
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  632. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: ↑
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  634. # [16:37] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: No idea, I have nothing to do with that functionality.
  635. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> ok
  636. # [16:39] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Ask Ms2ger
  637. # [16:40] <annevk> MikeSmith: make a crypto.json file consisting of {}
  638. # [16:40] <annevk> MikeSmith: it doesn't create the file, it just fills it up
  639. # [16:43] <jgraham> That seems quite silly
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  642. # [16:46] <zcorpan> http://www.rediff.com/gujarati/2002/apr/19dalal.htm
  643. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> annevk: thanks
  644. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I think it merits some stronger word than silly
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  646. # [16:55] * gsnedders wonders whether requiring UTF-8 for text/* over HTTP/2.0 is viable, or just as fictional as text/* being ISO-8859-1.
  647. # [16:55] <gsnedders> Certainly moving away from any content-type sniffing for SPDY content would be desirable.
  648. # [16:56] <gsnedders> (Whether a Content-Type header is used or magic bytes instead is a separate issue)
  649. # [16:57] <jgraham> MikeSmith: The W3C testrunner tries to run tests in an iframe, right?
  650. # [16:58] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  651. # [16:58] <MikeSmith> jgraham: it was using an object before
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  653. # [16:59] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I thought people objected to that?
  654. # [16:59] <MikeSmith> I can't remember if it was updated to use an iframe or nt
  655. # [16:59] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, it causes problems on mobile
  656. # [16:59] <MikeSmith> you can't scroll
  657. # [16:59] <jgraham> Anyway I object to iframe on the basis that testing window.top doesn't really work in an iframe (for example)
  658. # [17:00] <jgraham> Basically I think this whole harness might be a world of hurt
  659. # [17:01] <jgraham> Of course it's not strictly relevant to me since we won't ever use it
  660. # [17:01] <jgraham> But I will be annoyed if people get upset when tests break in it
  661. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> I checked and it's still using <object>
  662. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> jgraham: who's we?
  663. # [17:01] <jgraham> OK
  664. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> and why won't you use it?
  665. # [17:01] <jgraham> Opera. But I would expect "browser vendors"
  666. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> oh
  667. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  669. # [17:02] <jgraham> Because we have a highly custom solution designed for our specific requirements
  670. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> yeah
  671. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> understood
  672. # [17:02] <jgraham> (I guess you know that, but one must always think of the people trawling the logs)
  673. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> heh
  674. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> I think people trawling the logs should find some better way to spend their time
  675. # [17:03] <annevk> MikeSmith: jgraham: I'm sure Ms2ger takes patches
  676. # [17:04] <annevk> it does prevent people from creating files they didn't want to, and given that it's only for the first time, it's not too bad
  677. # [17:04] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Indeed, reading the channel's logs is almost as bad as reading the channel live
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  681. # [17:11] <MikeSmith> Philip`: indeed
  682. # [17:12] <MikeSmith> annevk: I wonder where the name big5 came from
  683. # [17:12] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.73.47)
  684. # [17:12] <MikeSmith> I mean, why name it that?
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  686. # [17:13] <jgraham> Size matters?
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  688. # [17:13] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: https://twitter.com/#!/brucel/status/189664480391741440
  689. # [17:14] * Joins: ryuone (~ryuone@www2406uf.sakura.ne.jp)
  690. # [17:14] <Ms2ger> brucel++
  691. # [17:14] <annevk> 'The name "Big5" is in recognition that the standard emerged from collaboration of five of Taiwan's largest IT firms: Acer (宏碁); MiTAC (神通); JiaJia (佳佳), ZERO ONE Technology (零壹 or 01tech); and, First International Computer (FIC) (大眾).'
  692. # [17:14] <annevk> apparently not quite enough collaboration
  693. # [17:15] <annevk> at least not when it came to extending it
  694. # [17:16] <MikeSmith> heh
  695. # [17:16] <zcorpan> they should have made the label 宏碁-神通-佳佳-零壹-大眾
  696. # [17:16] <zcorpan> (encoded as big5)
  697. # [17:16] <jgraham> So basically it was an ego thing?
  698. # [17:16] <jgraham> Impressive
  699. # [17:16] * Joins: GarciaWebDev (~GarciaWeb@190.55.15.249)
  700. # [17:17] <zcorpan> (sorry, i mean, encoded as 宏碁-神通-佳佳-零壹-大眾)
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  702. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: maybe they should have named it secret7
  703. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> brucel maybe likes that one better
  704. # [17:20] <zcorpan> good idea for next year's april 1
  705. # [17:21] <jgraham> I think of brucel as a maloryTowers man
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  709. # [17:31] <annevk> zewt: I like the emit encoder/decoder error idea btw
  710. # [17:31] <annevk> zewt: that's quite neat
  711. # [17:31] <annevk> zewt: I didn't really like the current approach either
  712. # [17:31] <annevk> euh don't
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  732. # [18:11] <annevk> MikeSmith: ah, the other reason it's not automatically generated is that you need to add a "url" field to crypto.json
  733. # [18:12] <annevk> MikeSmith: otherwise other specs can't use it
  734. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> oh
  735. # [18:13] <annevk> the xspec xref is a concatenation of that URL and the term
  736. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> but it seems like that could just be specified as an additional param
  737. # [18:13] <annevk> in the makefile?
  738. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> to anolis
  739. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> additional switch
  740. # [18:14] <annevk> i guess that could somehow be extracted too, yeah
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  743. # [18:17] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, yeah, patch welcome :)
  744. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> can't be arsed
  745. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> I prefer to complain
  746. # [18:17] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@68.65.169.185)
  747. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> seriously, it's not heinous thing
  748. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> just hard to remember
  749. # [18:18] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  750. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> I think this is the 3rd time I've need to re-remember it
  751. # [18:18] <Ms2ger> 3rd time you added a spec? :)
  752. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> yeah
  753. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> I guess so
  754. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> in this case it was trying to help the domcrypt guys get their stuff working
  755. # [18:19] <Ms2ger> Didn't I add that?
  756. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> dunno
  757. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> but don't think so
  758. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> because it was failing at the point where it was looking for that json file
  759. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> unless you put it in a different subdir
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  762. # [18:22] <Ms2ger> Great news, gsnedders stopped being dumb :)
  763. # [18:22] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Esp. considering I have exams next week!
  764. # [18:24] <arunranga> annevk, should HTML also define what a microtask is, in addition to "perform a microtask checkpoint"? That allows other specs (like File) to make some conditions only valid within a microtask.
  765. # [18:24] * Joins: espadrine (~thaddee_t@acces2373.res.insa-lyon.fr)
  766. # [18:31] <annevk> arunranga: if you need a new concept from HTML related to task I'd suggest filing a bug on HTML with the requirements
  767. # [18:31] <annevk> tasks*
  768. # [18:31] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.193.30.getinternet.no)
  769. # [18:32] <annevk> arunranga: especially if you need some kind of hook
  770. # [18:32] <annevk> arunranga: it seems though for the resolve URL thing we might need a bit more
  771. # [18:32] <arunranga> annevk: ok. I guess I wanted you (and Ms2ger's) take from a DOM perspective.
  772. # [18:32] <arunranga> annevk: yes, I'm trying to figure out *what* we might need.
  773. # [18:33] <Ms2ger> Ah, it's arunranga!
  774. # [18:33] <arunranga> Hello Ms2ger :) Formerly otherarun. Also, TheArun.
  775. # [18:33] <Ms2ger> Microtasks? 300 smaug____ annevk aklein
  776. # [18:34] <annevk> maha 301 hixie
  777. # [18:34] <annevk> I should understand this stuff, but each time it dazzles me
  778. # [18:34] <arunranga> All this redirection is giving me a time out.
  779. # [18:35] <arunranga> annevk, if by "dazzles" you mean "totally confuses me to the point of tears" I'm in the same boat as you.
  780. # [18:35] <Ms2ger> I decided against 301 because I still have hope I'll figure it out at some point :)
  781. # [18:35] <Ms2ger> The reason for that, of course, is that I haven't looked at it
  782. # [18:35] <smaug____> what about microtasks ?
  783. # [18:36] <smaug____> ah, some spec things...
  784. # [18:36] <annevk> arunranga: haha, it's not quite that bad, but the resolving URLs concept is quite confusing
  785. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> s/resolving//
  786. # [18:36] <arunranga> Greetings smaug___ ! Currently, HTML specifies "perform a microtask checkpoint" without an explanation of what constitutes a microtask. I think a microtask is a convenient concept upon which to hang a few other checks.
  787. # [18:36] * Joins: dave_levin (dave_levin@nat/google/x-sdpbuxqngspmmcay)
  788. # [18:37] <arunranga> smaug___, Ms2ger, annevk: this includes the validity of a Blob URL. I'd like them to be scoped within a microtask.
  789. # [18:37] <arunranga> (if possible)
  790. # [18:37] <Ms2ger> Blob URLs?
  791. # [18:37] * Ms2ger runs
  792. # [18:37] * Joins: kaustubh (~kaustubh@144.189.100.29)
  793. # [18:37] <Ms2ger> zewt cares about that, IIRC?
  794. # [18:37] * arunranga catches Ms2ger and forces the issue :)
  795. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> r-
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  797. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, I'm going to see if I can add a better error message for the --dump-xrefs thing
  798. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> OK
  799. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> that would be helpful
  800. # [18:39] <arunranga> zewt and I chatted a while ago about resolution of Blob URLs. FileAPI currently uses the confusing "dereference…" which I think should be replaced.
  801. # [18:40] <smaug____> arunranga: yeah, HTML spec could perhaps specify better what is a microtask. (The outermost script execution of the innermost task)
  802. # [18:40] <arunranga> smaug___ I'll file a bug I think.
  803. # [18:40] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  804. # [18:42] <arunranga> We've got performing a microtask checkpoint defined in terms of MutationObserver.
  805. # [18:43] <smaug____> well, because that is the original reason for microtasks
  806. # [18:43] <smaug____> sicking was thinking to use microtasks IDB
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  808. # [18:45] <arunranga> I think we can use them for File as well, maybe for validity of Blob URLs.
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  810. # [18:46] <Ms2ger> jgraham, MikeSmith, fwiw, Mozilla runs mochitests in an iframe too, so I don't think there would be an objection from our side
  811. # [18:46] <annevk> dglazkov: xmp is not a valid element fwiw
  812. # [18:47] <Ms2ger> jgraham, MikeSmith, I think we use popups, and disable popup-blocking, if necessary
  813. # [18:47] <annevk> arunranga: validity of blob URLs doesn't need to happen in a task I think
  814. # [18:48] <gsnedders> Anyone have IE10 at hand to see if const is supported in ES?
  815. # [18:48] <arunranga> annevk: What I mean is, *scoped* to a microtask.
  816. # [18:48] <arunranga> annevk: this makes leaks less likely.
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  818. # [18:48] <annevk> ooh, the expiring stuff
  819. # [18:48] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, I can if you give me a test
  820. # [18:48] <annevk> right
  821. # [18:49] <arunranga> annevk: that is, having unused Blob URLs or "long lived" ones. Also, it mitigates the need for something like oneTimeOnly.
  822. # [18:49] <Ms2ger> Preferably by uploading it to the live dom viewer
  823. # [18:49] <annevk> arunranga: yeah I remember reading that, I think zewt was all on top of that :)
  824. # [18:49] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1480
  825. # [18:49] <annevk> but part of that sounded like it needed to be defined in either URL resolving or fetching
  826. # [18:49] <arunranga> annevk: won't exactly stop race issues, but can mitigate them.
  827. # [18:49] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Basically, does it give an error or not?
  828. # [18:50] <annevk> and then XHR and everything dealing with URLs needed updating
  829. # [18:50] <arunranga> annevk, right. Are those the purview of HTML?
  830. # [18:50] * arunranga concludes it is.
  831. # [18:51] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, Syntax error
  832. # [18:51] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Interesting.
  833. # [18:52] <dglazkov> annevk: ok :)
  834. # [18:53] * jgraham tries to test some simple things, finds a selection of unrelated issues
  835. # [18:54] <jgraham> In other news, I am starting to understand why hsivonen hates about:blank
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  837. # [18:54] <jgraham> Ms2ger: We run some tests in popup windows and some tests (including testharness.js tests) as top level documents
  838. # [18:55] <smaug____> that happens in Mozilla too
  839. # [18:55] <smaug____> some tests open a new window
  840. # [18:55] <smaug____> or new tab etc
  841. # [18:55] <smaug____> but most are run in an iframe
  842. # [18:55] <jgraham> Right, your tests can have chrome permissions
  843. # [18:56] <jgraham> Whereas we drive the tests externally so we can load them in a top-level window
  844. # [18:56] <jgraham> aiui
  845. # [18:56] <jgraham> Well I mean I understand the Opera system. I think I understand what Mozilla do :)
  846. # [18:57] <Ms2ger> Plain mochitests are run in an iframe and don't get chrome permissions
  847. # [18:57] <annevk> arunranga: URLs and fetch are at this point
  848. # [18:57] <Ms2ger> Modulo SpecialPowers, which is an extension that grants access to some stuff, and UniversalXPConnect, which we want to kill
  849. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> There are also chrome mochitests, which are run in a top-level window, and do have chrome permissions
  850. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> And other stuff
  851. # [18:58] <annevk> dglazkov: I guess what I should say, is that we have not introduced any new features in the HTML syntax that depart wildly from what is possible in XML
  852. # [18:58] <jgraham> Do SpecialPowers allow you to open a top-level browsuing context if you need it?
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  854. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> That's what window.open is for
  855. # [18:59] <annevk> dglazkov: so making such a proposal can be somewhat controversial and also begs the question of how you anticipate <template> to work in a namespaced context
  856. # [19:01] <jgraham> Fair point. I always forget that window.open gives a top-level browsing context
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  860. # [19:03] <dglazkov> annevk: I haven't been keeping XML and namespaces in mind at all. It's a good point -- though I have no sense whether XML is just an edge case at this point.
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  864. # [19:08] <annevk> dglazkov: I think it is, and I don't necessarily think we need to cater to it, but unless we remove XML from browsers it needs to be defined what <template> does in that context
  865. # [19:08] <annevk> dglazkov: and it's also important in the DOM
  866. # [19:09] <annevk> dglazkov: if appendChild() something to <template> you'd have the same thing
  867. # [19:10] <dglazkov> annevk: that last one doesn't seem much different from appending a child to textarea
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  870. # [19:15] <dglazkov> annevk: can you help rafaelw_ understand the issue with XML?
  871. # [19:15] <rafaelw_> annevk, hsivonen, dglazkov: just joining...
  872. # [19:15] <rafaelw_> annevk: if you would be so kind ^^^
  873. # [19:15] <annevk> the issue is that this feature would not work in XML
  874. # [19:16] <annevk> just like <noscript> I suppose
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  876. # [19:16] * beverloo_ is now known as beverloo
  877. # [19:16] <annevk> if that's by design, it probably should state that explicitly so people who get annoyed by that kind of thing get annoyed early on
  878. # [19:16] <annevk> I don't really care
  879. # [19:17] <rafaelw_> honestly, this working in XML hadn't even occurred to me.
  880. # [19:17] <rafaelw_> but can you help me understand why it doesn't work.
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  882. # [19:21] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  883. # [19:23] <annevk> rafaelw_: because you'd have to change the XML parser if you want it to work in the same way
  884. # [19:23] <annevk> rafaelw_: I'm assuming you're not planning on doing that
  885. # [19:24] <annevk> oh shit, I should have dinner
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  887. # [19:25] <rafaelw_> hmm... that kinda makes it sound like this isn't so much a problem with XML as a question about whether the <template> element should have the same behavior in an XML document. is that a fair way of stating it?
  888. # [19:26] <annevk> I don't think so, because the XML situation also arises in the DOM
  889. # [19:27] <annevk> <template><test/></template> is not much different from createElement("template"); createElement("test"); template.append(test); body.append(template)
  890. # [19:28] * Joins: nesta_ (~nesta_@215.Red-83-58-133.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net)
  891. # [19:28] <annevk> whereas in HTML per your suggestion <template><test/></template> would give <template/> in the DOM
  892. # [19:28] <annevk> which is "magic" in the HTML parser that we cannot introduce in the XML parser
  893. # [19:29] * Joins: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-ccsnorjlizqmrrrb)
  894. # [19:34] <rafaelw_> (adam is explaining to me locally). so is that the we have the ability to change the HTML parser, but no such ability with the XML parser?
  895. # [19:35] <annevk> right, changing those kind of invariants of the XML parser is not going to fly
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  899. # [19:40] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
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  901. # [19:44] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: I can't decipher what you are attempting to say in your post about "legacy const". This isn't helped by your opening sentence being ungrammatical and nonsensical.
  902. # [19:50] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  903. # [19:51] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  904. # [19:53] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Yay for not reading emails before I send them!
  905. # [19:54] <rniwa> arv: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/editing.html#the-inert-attribute
  906. # [19:55] <Ms2ger> rniwa, do you know if anybody else than webkit does something as complex as http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebCore/css/CSSStyleSelector.cpp?rev=113922#L4920 ?
  907. # [19:55] <annevk> TabAtkins is correct though that insert="" is not suitable for <template>; my bad
  908. # [19:56] <annevk> maybe insert="" should be named inactive=""
  909. # [19:56] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: In related news, why does Standard English not contain "outwith" in its lexis? Grr!
  910. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> What does "outwith" mean?
  911. # [19:56] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, I would ask an English language majo... Oh
  912. # [19:57] <rniwa> Ms2ger: as far as I know, Gecko does something similar
  913. # [19:57] <Ms2ger> rniwa, including the mode-dependence?
  914. # [19:57] <rniwa> Ms2ger: think so
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  916. # [19:57] <Ms2ger> Because I didn't see that in the code
  917. # [19:57] <annevk> "is a Scottish preposition meaning 'outside, beyond', and along with wee (for 'small') is the first non-English English word that visitors to Scotland notice (and sometimes adopt): Do you live outwith the city? / We can discuss that outwith the meeting."
  918. # [19:57] <annevk> brilliant
  919. # [19:57] <rniwa> Ms2ger: I swear I even checked gecko's implementation at one time
  920. # [19:58] <rniwa> Ms2ger: okay, can I see your code?
  921. # [19:58] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Opposite of within, basically
  922. # [19:58] <rniwa> Ms2ger: lost my URL :(
  923. # [19:58] <Ms2ger> rniwa, I may have changed it since :)
  924. # [19:58] <rniwa> Ms2ger: oh
  925. # [19:58] <rniwa> Ms2ger: where can I see the code in Gecko though?
  926. # [19:58] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: That's just silly.
  927. # [19:58] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: so "outwith the meeting" means "not within the meeting", basically
  928. # [19:58] <TabAtkins> "outside of"
  929. # [19:59] <Ms2ger> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/html/content/src/nsHTMLFontElement.cpp , right?
  930. # [19:59] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Bah, ScEn has a single word for it!
  931. # [19:59] <Ms2ger> Oh, wait
  932. # [19:59] <gsnedders> (I've undoubtedly used this a number of times on W3C mailing lists, as I often forget it's a ScEn word)
  933. # [19:59] <annevk> gsnedders: does Scotland have a two-level code?
  934. # [19:59] <annevk> en-sc or some such
  935. # [19:59] <gsnedders> annevk: No. en-gb-scot.
  936. # [20:00] <annevk> ugh
  937. # [20:00] <gsnedders> Oh, no, that's untrue.
  938. # [20:00] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.193.30.getinternet.no) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  939. # [20:00] <gsnedders> Only Google hit for that is a Tweet by me. Must be misremebering.
  940. # [20:00] <Ms2ger> rniwa, sorry, I think I lied
  941. # [20:00] <Ms2ger> Gah.
  942. # [20:01] <rniwa> Ms2ger: ?
  943. # [20:01] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  944. # [20:01] <Ms2ger> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/style/nsStyleUtil.cpp#64
  945. # [20:01] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f731cb7.pool.mediaWays.net)
  946. # [20:01] <annevk> gsnedders: sco per ISO
  947. # [20:01] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  948. # [20:01] <gsnedders> annevk: sco
  949. # [20:01] <rniwa> Ms2ger: yup...
  950. # [20:01] <rniwa> Ms2ger: i think dhyatt wrote both tables
  951. # [20:02] <Ms2ger> And got some off-by-one errors in yours? :)
  952. # [20:02] <gsnedders> annevk: Though that implies it's the Scots Language and not a dialect of English (which is a very interesting discussion…)
  953. # [20:02] <rniwa> Ms2ger: maybe LOL
  954. # [20:02] <rniwa> Ms2ger: anyway, i've got to head to Mozilla's SF office now
  955. # [20:02] <annevk> Ms2ger: broken links in your source code
  956. # [20:02] <rniwa> so ttyl ;)
  957. # [20:02] <Ms2ger> Though I see erik@netscape.com has blame for that table
  958. # [20:02] * gsnedders also finds that Old English and Middle English have their own language codes, interestingly
  959. # [20:03] <Ms2ger> rniwa, won't find me there, sorry ;)
  960. # [20:03] <rniwa> Ms2ger: i know ;)
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  964. # [20:03] <gsnedders> annevk: sco is really the Scots Language as opposed to Scottish English, and I'm really meaning the latter here.
  965. # [20:03] <Ms2ger> annevk, patches welcome :)
  966. # [20:04] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  967. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> "Bug 18136 - Fixing the font size mess {font} {ll}"
  968. # [20:04] <gsnedders> "Whaur dae ye bide?" would be Scots but not Scottish English, for example
  969. # [20:04] <annevk> Ms2ger: been ages since I patched Gecko
  970. # [20:04] <annevk> Ms2ger: and I was rather bad at it back then
  971. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Guessing "Where do you live?"
  972. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> annevk, surely Opera has trained you by now :)
  973. # [20:04] <annevk> in the Gecko ways? not so much
  974. # [20:04] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Yes.
  975. # [20:05] <hober> scots gaelic is gd iirc
  976. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> Well, I guess the Gecko ways are about as weird as Opera's
  977. # [20:05] <hober> i don't remember the three letter code for it
  978. # [20:05] <gsnedders> hober: yeah
  979. # [20:05] <gsnedders> hober: gla
  980. # [20:05] <rektide> anyone have suggestions for how do to drag and drop SVG? my problem is that i'm dragging the item along the screen under the mouse, covering up all the event handlers i would like to be firing
  981. # [20:05] <hober> sco is the sister-to-english language spoken in scotland :)
  982. # [20:06] <rektide> and elementFromPoint identifies not <svg:use/> elements but what the <svg:use/> elements point to
  983. # [20:06] <gsnedders> hober: Ever less so, though. Scottish English is probably about as common as Scots in colloquial usage now.
  984. # [20:06] <gsnedders> (Gaelic is practically non-existant for most purposes, and has had very little influence over Scottish English or Scots)
  985. # [20:07] <rektide> i'm interested to know what techniques are out there for making the MouseEvents useful, not all target this one being-dragged item
  986. # [20:07] * Quits: ivan\ (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  987. # [20:07] <othermaciej> wikipedia sea: "Scottish English refers to the varieties of English spoken in Scotland. It may or may not be considered distinct from the Scots language."
  988. # [20:07] <othermaciej> is that wrong?
  989. # [20:08] * Joins: ivan\ (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
  990. # [20:08] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@nat/mozilla/x-rkjncmdkxlybjmcu)
  991. # [20:08] <Ms2ger> [citation needed]
  992. # [20:08] <Ms2ger> rniwa (~rniwa@nat/mozilla/x-rkjncmdkxlybjmcu) has joined #whatwg
  993. # [20:08] <Ms2ger> We got him!
  994. # [20:08] <rniwa> Ms2ger: LOL.
  995. # [20:09] <rniwa> Ms2ger: SF goole office & SF mozilla office are in the same building complex
  996. # [20:09] <shepazu> rektide: turn off pointer events on the svg element you're dragging
  997. # [20:09] <gsnedders> othermaciej: You can argue either way. The academic view tends to be that language in Scotland is a continuum from Standard English through Scottish English to Scots, but still not entirely agreed upon.
  998. # [20:09] <Ms2ger> rniwa, remind me never to set foot in that complex, then :)
  999. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language "It is sometimes called Lowland Scots to distinguish it from Scottish Gaelic, the Celtic language variety spoken in most of the western Highlands and in the Hebrides."
  1000. # [20:09] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Given that it's basically a continuum, there's some debate as to whether Scots is a separate language from English or not.
  1001. # [20:09] <smaug____> Ms2ger: :)
  1002. # [20:10] <smaug____> Ms2ger: SF isn't that bad place
  1003. # [20:10] <rektide> shepazu: thank you so much. of course.
  1004. # [20:10] <shepazu> np
  1005. # [20:10] <rektide> NOT ANY MORE
  1006. # [20:10] <Ms2ger> smaug____, I thought you would be in favour of me not joining Google... Unless you saw all my regressions :)
  1007. # [20:10] <rektide> omg the hackery that's been going on for a day and a half
  1008. # [20:10] <jgraham> Uh, wait how did I manage to entirely overlook something like <template><test/></template> == <template></template>?
  1009. # [20:10] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I do know that Scottish Gaelic is distinct (and only spoken by 1% of the population of Scottland or so)
  1010. # [20:10] <rektide> ;)
  1011. # [20:10] <jgraham> That's not going to work
  1012. # [20:11] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Go back to 1707 (Acts of Union, where the Scottish and English parliments effectly ceased to exist to be replaced by a single parliment), Scots was a separate language to English.
  1013. # [20:11] <shepazu> rektide: remember to turn them back on when you drop the element :)
  1014. # [20:11] <smaug____> Ms2ger: you could join Mozilla ;)
  1015. # [20:11] <smaug____> as an employee
  1016. # [20:11] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@68.65.169.185) (Quit: bbl)
  1017. # [20:12] <jgraham> gsnedders: Is the Scottish plan to leave the union and then fund independence by suing Linux for IP violations?
  1018. # [20:12] <othermaciej> gsnedders: are you scottish yourself?
  1019. # [20:12] * smaug____ can hope someone drags rniwa out from the dark side :p
  1020. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> wow, Ulster Scots? wtf
  1021. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: you met gsnedders man
  1022. # [20:12] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I'm borderline autistic, I don't remember stuff like that :-)
  1023. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> heh
  1024. # [20:12] <jgraham> gsnedders: Is like the opposite of someone who plays Scottish on TV
  1025. # [20:12] <Ms2ger> Glasgow?
  1026. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> gsnedders looks like a young Robert Plant
  1027. # [20:13] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Yes.
  1028. # [20:13] <MikeSmith> except sexier
  1029. # [20:13] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Also, I have never met othermaciej.
  1030. # [20:13] <jgraham> He was born is Scotland but looks/sounds about as Scottish as I do
  1031. # [20:13] <gsnedders> But what jgraham said is the truth.
  1032. # [20:13] <jgraham> But with a slight resembelence to a heroin addict
  1033. # [20:13] <jgraham> Which is quite glaswegian at least
  1034. # [20:13] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GYDCCXLVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1035. # [20:13] <gsnedders> (Also, jgraham has more Scottish ancestory than I do, IIRC)
  1036. # [20:14] <jgraham> I never understood how one did sums on ancestors
  1037. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> gsnedders has a unique sound, just as Robert Plant does
  1038. # [20:14] <othermaciej> I am not very good at distinguishing UK/commonwealth accents
  1039. # [20:14] <jgraham> s/did/does/
  1040. # [20:14] <gsnedders> My accent is approximately RP.
  1041. # [20:14] <jgraham> I think I have more Scottish parents than you
  1042. # [20:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well, yes, that's what I was going by basically.
  1043. # [20:14] <jgraham> I'm not sure how one weights backward in time
  1044. # [20:14] <gsnedders> (I have none.)
  1045. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> gsnedders, othermaciej : I thought you dudes met in Nice but I guess slacker othermaciej didn't show that year
  1046. # [20:15] <jgraham> Although I am pretty sure you do it differently in America
  1047. # [20:15] <gsnedders> (I have a single Scottish grandparent.)
  1048. # [20:15] <jgraham> Like you find one ancestor in a country you like and claim to be from there
  1049. # [20:15] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Yeah, that's what happened.
  1050. # [20:18] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GYDCCXLVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  1051. # [20:18] <MikeSmith> my ancestors were mostly pig thieves who fled to America to avoid getting branded with whatever tf the English bastards did to honest pig thieves at that time
  1052. # [20:19] <MikeSmith> plus French Canadians
  1053. # [20:19] <Ms2ger> Just your ancestors?
  1054. # [20:19] <MikeSmith> I've stolen a pig or two in my time
  1055. # [20:19] <gsnedders> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Scots#Sample_text is a good example of what Scots was like a few hundred years ago
  1056. # [20:19] <MikeSmith> plus I've "had" a pig or two i mine time
  1057. # [20:20] <gsnedders> (Compare with, for example, Shakespeare in first folio form — modern editions are fairly different from the original language)
  1058. # [20:20] <gsnedders> Obviously related to English, but really quite radically different to it.
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  1062. # [20:21] <MikeSmith> modern glasgow scottish is one of the greats in terms of its utter incomprehensibility
  1063. # [20:22] <gsnedders> Heheh. It's not that bad!
  1064. # [20:22] <gsnedders> (I didn't find it that bad when I first moved to Glasgow.)
  1065. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> glasgow scots are basically barbarians who have barely mastered speech
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  1067. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> pretty sure some thug is now going to kill me for saying that
  1068. # [20:26] <annevk> rafaelw_: is the idea that the HTML parser will define the parsing algorithm for <template>?
  1069. # [20:27] <annevk> rafaelw_: because if that's the case, and that would make sense to me, it might be worth filing a bug against HTML at this point too, with some explanation of the goal
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  1071. # [20:27] <annevk> rafaelw_: so the HTML WG is not surprised and we don't get useless revert requests that hober then has to waste time on
  1072. # [20:28] <annevk> (I guess the alternative is to buy hober even more beer, but I'm not sure that's wise)
  1073. # [20:30] <rafaelw_> annevk: is there alternative to that?
  1074. # [20:30] <hober> annevk: :)
  1075. # [20:32] <rafaelw_> (that was certainly my idea)
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  1081. # [20:36] <annevk> rafaelw_: k
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  1084. # [20:38] <MikeSmith> kickstarter for hober beer
  1085. # [20:38] <annevk> jsbell: "// TODO: Typo in spec?" is fixed
  1086. # [20:39] <annevk> jsbell: noticed it myself, then went to check your code, then found that :)
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  1088. # [20:40] <MikeSmith> amazing
  1089. # [20:40] <MikeSmith> my OSX software update actually updated software without requiring me to restart
  1090. # [20:40] <rafaelw_> annevk: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16789
  1091. # [20:40] <MikeSmith> there is hope
  1092. # [20:41] <annevk> rafaelw_: cool, fixed the component so the email will go to the HTML WG
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  1095. # [20:54] <annevk> hober: maybe we can meet April 30 for Notifications?
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  1097. # [20:55] <hober> annevk: sure. want to come to apple for lunch?
  1098. # [20:55] <annevk> hober: apparently doing it at the Microsoft venue is not really okay... although I'm not sure anyone actually asked
  1099. # [20:55] <hober> weird
  1100. # [20:56] <annevk> cool so if that's feasible we should just find John Gregg I guess and ask whoever else wants to come to come?
  1101. # [20:57] <hober> sgtm
  1102. # [20:57] <annevk> sweet, I'll mail the list again
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  1104. # [21:01] <Ms2ger> So, zcorpan gets to spec http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/style/nsStyleUtil.cpp#64 / http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebCore/css/CSSStyleSelector.cpp?rev=113922#L4920
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  1109. # [21:11] <annevk> hober: I'm starting to feel like those people that email "meeting" emails to mailing lists around all the time instead of technical content
  1110. # [21:11] <annevk> it's only my second such email thus far, but the feeling is strong
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  1118. # [21:24] <hober> annevk: :(
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  1120. # [21:26] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, should be done now
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  1127. # [21:29] <arunranga> annevk, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16790 for micro tasks now exists #FYI
  1128. # [21:29] <annevk> nice
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  1138. # [21:54] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: thanks
  1139. # [21:54] <Ms2ger> Np
  1140. # [21:57] <annevk> "Ack: MikeSmith, decoder."
  1141. # [21:59] <Ms2ger> Not your kind of decoder
  1142. # [22:02] <Ms2ger> "But test suites will soon be generated based on spec links."
  1143. # [22:02] <Ms2ger> We live in a brave new world
  1144. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> Yesssss
  1145. # [22:03] * Ms2ger enters whatwg.org/html
  1146. # [22:04] * Ms2ger waits for the millions of tests to roll out
  1147. # [22:07] <MikeSmith> hey does anybody here read Dr. Dobbs journal, ever?
  1148. # [22:07] <MikeSmith> I ask because i wrote up something for that site as a favor
  1149. # [22:08] <MikeSmith> but jackass editor at that site seems to have found that it didn't meet his narrow view of what he's interested in publishing
  1150. # [22:10] <MikeSmith> and I'm like, hey I never read anything you publish anyway, nor does anybody else I know, so if you don't choose to publish it, then nobody's going to care anyway
  1151. # [22:11] <annevk> what was it about?
  1152. # [22:11] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.88.194) (Quit: othermaciej)
  1153. # [22:11] <Philip`> He's not even a real doctor
  1154. # [22:11] <MikeSmith> "HTML5"
  1155. # [22:12] <annevk> MikeSmith: publish on blog.whatwg.org or your own blog?
  1156. # [22:12] <annevk> (don't read dr. dobbs journal btw)
  1157. # [22:12] <MikeSmith> this fuckartard says he wants an article about "where the HTML5 formalization process is, what still remains to be done, how long that might take, and finally what can be done today that won't be affected by the remaining items to be done"
  1158. # [22:12] <MikeSmith> which I have no interest in writing
  1159. # [22:13] <MikeSmith> instead I attempted to write something for him that actual developers might be interested in reading
  1160. # [22:13] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.88.194)
  1161. # [22:14] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, will post it somewhere else for sure
  1162. # [22:15] <annevk> let me know when you tweet about it or when it's up
  1163. # [22:15] <annevk> can share from @whatwg
  1164. # [22:15] <MikeSmith> plus he's asking, "might I ask why the original article was not written?"
  1165. # [22:15] <MikeSmith> the answer to which is, he never offered to pay us dime one for writing it
  1166. # [22:16] <MikeSmith> so I care fuck all what he thinks it should be
  1167. # [22:16] <MikeSmith> this guy is apparently the executive editor for Dr. Dobbs
  1168. # [22:16] <MikeSmith> which doesn't give me much confidence
  1169. # [22:17] <MikeSmith> asshat
  1170. # [22:17] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, will do
  1171. # [22:18] <Philip`> An editor wanting some control over the articles that get written and published in his publication? That sounds crazy
  1172. # [22:18] <MikeSmith> everybody please remind me to never again waste my time trying to accommodate tech journalist
  1173. # [22:19] <MikeSmith> Philip`: apparently they can find lots of people who will write crap for them without being paid
  1174. # [22:20] <MikeSmith> in contrast to me, where I wrote this as a favor to somebody else on the W3C team who asked me to do it
  1175. # [22:21] <MikeSmith> not for this moron
  1176. # [22:21] <gsnedders> u"a" in UCS-4 Python is 56 bytes. Ow.
  1177. # [22:21] <MikeSmith> heh
  1178. # [22:21] <TabAtkins> ...what?
  1179. # [22:22] <MikeSmith> python ftw
  1180. # [22:23] <annevk> gsnedders: you meant to write bytes, not bits?
  1181. # [22:23] <gsnedders> annevk: Yes.
  1182. # [22:23] <annevk> o_O
  1183. # [22:24] <gsnedders> I mean, type flag + repr shouldn't be that big, surely!?
  1184. # [22:24] <gsnedders> I guess there's no type flag but a pointer to its class
  1185. # [22:25] <gsnedders> Which would be eight bytes, plus four for the actual repr.
  1186. # [22:27] <gsnedders> Interestingly, "a" (i.e., a byte string) is 38 bytes, even though I'd expect it to only be be three bytes smaller.
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  1191. # [22:38] <Philip`> gsnedders: x86 or amd64?
  1192. # [22:39] <gsnedders> Philip`: amd64, lp64
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  1200. # [22:58] <jsbell> annevk: re: "TYPO in spec?" - heh, yeah, was going to dig in a bit before bugging you
  1201. # [23:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: I think assuming 12 bytes would be wildly optimistic. It stores a bunch of things e.g. length, reference count
  1202. # [23:02] <gsnedders> jgraham: Oh, yeah, right, Python still has ref counting…
  1203. # [23:02] <jgraham> Well CPython
  1204. # [23:02] <jgraham> But yes
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  1206. # [23:07] <jgraham> They also seem to store their hash value, an integer representing whether they are UCS_2, UCS_4 or various other things, an integer indicating whether they are compact, an integer indicating whether they are ascii and some sort of ready flag
  1207. # [23:07] <gsnedders> jgraham: What version of Python are you looking at?
  1208. # [23:07] <jgraham> http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/b5e6cbacd6ab/Include/unicodeobject.h
  1209. # [23:07] <jgraham> Which I assume is latest trunk
  1210. # [23:07] <gsnedders> Irrelevant. The Unicode repr is changing in 3.3.
  1211. # [23:08] <jgraham> Seems like you could do a bunch of bit packing here to improve the memory usage
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  1213. # [23:08] <jgraham> gsnedders: You mean has changed?
  1214. # [23:08] <gsnedders> (As it now stores stuff as ASCII when possible, and then UCS-2 if possible, and finally UCS-4 if it has to, instead of it being set by compiled.)
  1215. # [23:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: Has changed is trunk, is changing in the next release…
  1216. # [23:09] <gsnedders> s/by compiled/at compile time/
  1217. # [23:10] <gsnedders> http://docs.python.org/dev/whatsnew/3.3.html#pep-393-flexible-string-representation
  1218. # [23:10] <jgraham> 2.7 seems to be http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/dd23333b579a/Include/unicodeobject.h#l413
  1219. # [23:10] <jgraham> gsnedders: Ah, that would explain a lot
  1220. # [23:10] <jgraham> But it will make the memory usage for your TC worse I would think
  1221. # [23:11] <gsnedders> jgraham: Makes me want to rewrite this in C more and more…
  1222. # [23:11] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, but think of the kittens!
  1223. # [23:11] <jgraham> I really don't see why they need a whole int to store a compact flag and another int to store an ascii flag and another int to store a ready flag
  1224. # [23:11] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yeah, that just seems silly.
  1225. # [23:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: Or maybe compat with the old API?
  1226. # [23:12] <Ms2ger> Access speed?
  1227. # [23:12] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: ASCII/UCS2/UCS4 should all be one flag, logically.
  1228. # [23:12] <jgraham> gsnedders: Maybe?
  1229. # [23:12] * Ms2ger points at the topic
  1230. # [23:12] <jgraham> The old struct looks pretty differnt at least
  1231. # [23:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: ascii is only one bit
  1232. # [23:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: I think you need to learn more C :)
  1233. # [23:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: (actually, it depends on how the compiler decides to layout the struct in memory, but the code dictates ascii is one bit)
  1234. # [23:14] <Ms2ger> "Only 7-bit ASCII data is excepted."
  1235. # [23:14] <Ms2ger> Grr
  1236. # [23:15] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh, I see
  1237. # [23:15] <jgraham> Well ignore my previous complaint then
  1238. # [23:15] <gsnedders> jgraham: Ah, 1BYTE (within kind) and ascii are different: 1BYTE_KIND allows ISO-8859-1, ascii allows US-ASCII
  1239. # [23:15] <jgraham> I was assuming that C was a logical language
  1240. # [23:15] <gsnedders> Probably so it knows what it can pass to system functions which expect ASCII
  1241. # [23:16] <jgraham> So that if it said "unsigned int" you actually got an unsigned int
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  1243. # [23:16] <gsnedders> (I'm trying to implement a trie in Python without using ALL THE MEMORY.)
  1244. # [23:17] <jgraham> gsnedders: You know short strings are intered, right?
  1245. # [23:18] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yeah.
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  1247. # [23:18] <gsnedders> Still, my initial, trivial impl used a lot.
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  1262. # [23:42] <myndzi> that document - holy cow. incredible.
  1263. # [23:42] <myndzi> is there a list of compliant (or close) parsers somewhere?
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  1273. # [23:51] <jgraham> What document? What parsers?
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  1279. # [23:54] <myndzi> the html parsing document on whatwg.org?
  1280. # [23:55] * Quits: brandon (~zbgureshp@thunkers.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  1281. # [23:55] <Hixie> you mean the spec? :-)
  1282. # [23:55] <myndzi> sure
  1283. # [23:55] <myndzi> The Spec
  1284. # [23:55] <myndzi> :)
  1285. # [23:55] <Hixie> as, the HTML standard?
  1286. # [23:55] <Hixie> there's no browser that does exactly what the HTML standard says to do
  1287. # [23:56] <Hixie> but there's several browsers who are basically trying to coverge on it
  1288. # [23:56] <Hixie> if that's what you mean
  1289. # [23:56] <myndzi> not a browser, a library, and i was just curious if there's a list somewhere
  1290. # [23:56] <myndzi> to help identify the ones that do it the best
  1291. # [23:56] <Hixie> just for the HTML parser part?
  1292. # [23:56] <Hixie> html5lib is one i know about, validator.nu has one too
  1293. # [23:57] <myndzi> yeah, just the html parser part
  1294. # [23:57] <Hixie> and webkit has a parsing component, dunno how easy it would be to reuse
  1295. # [23:57] <myndzi> tokenizing and fixing all the messed up stuff
  1296. # [23:57] <myndzi> etc.
  1297. # [23:57] <myndzi> i'll check em out
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  1300. # Session Close: Thu Apr 19 00:00:00 2012

The end :)