/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-04-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Apr 21 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:05] <Yuhong> BTW, Vista has entered extended support recently which mean no more IE upgrades!
  8. # [00:06] <Hixie> TabAtkins: you aware of any plan to make 'white-space' have a value that works like 'normal' but optimises for equal line lengths?
  9. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> Heh, you're the third person asking about that this week.
  10. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> Oh wait, that's something different.
  11. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> Explain?
  12. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> Isn't that the definition of "text-align:justify;"?
  13. # [00:07] <Hixie> text-align:justify doesn't affect where words wrap, right?
  14. # [00:07] <Hixie> just the spacing between words
  15. # [00:07] <zewt> sounds like you're talking about the thing vtt wants
  16. # [00:08] <Hixie> i mean something like if i write "foo foo foo bar" it turns into "foo foo\nfoo bar" not "foo foo foo\nbar"
  17. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> Okay, that's nothing to do with white-space.
  18. # [00:08] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-919ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  19. # [00:08] <Hixie> zewt: yeah, your e-mail about it from december is what triggered my question
  20. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> But yes, I've had people ask about it this week, and pinged fantasai about it.
  21. # [00:08] <zewt> Hixie: there's some newer discussion (don't know if there's any new content, though)
  22. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> The obvious answer is "it's expensive on general web content".
  23. # [00:08] <zewt> no particular plans or anything since it's all on the webvtt list, which isn't where that would be done anyway
  24. # [00:09] <Hixie> zewt: i go through mail in order
  25. # [00:09] <Hixie> TabAtkins: k
  26. # [00:09] <Hixie> TabAtkins: should i just do a custom thing for webvtt then?
  27. # [00:09] <zewt> TabAtkins: but not really, like we discussed :)
  28. # [00:09] <zewt> (that is, it's not expensive if you don't try to do it "perfectly" and use the reasonable-approximation algorithm i suggested)
  29. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> But it's not difficult, and for WebVTT content it should be fast.
  30. # [00:10] <Hixie> TabAtkins: (seems to be 'white-space'-related to me, it controls where line breaks are put in. but i guess it could be a new property also, or a new keyword on text-align or something.)
  31. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> When you get down to it, it's about controlling the length of the last line relative to the other lines.
  32. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Since, assuming normal wrapping, *all* the lines (except the last) are the same length.
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  34. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> And being able to control wrapping to ensure that, say, the last lines of paragraphs are always >20% of the paragraph width is already useful.
  35. # [00:12] <zewt> TabAtkins: i guess that's one way of looking at it, but it affects all lines (not just the last) so it feels sort of an unnatural way of explaining it
  36. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> Making the requirement be "100% of the width" works just as well.
  37. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> zewt: I know. :/
  38. # [00:12] <zewt> that's sort of interesting--you could say "min-last-line-width", which is currently 0 (no requirement), 100 would mean "balance all lines", and you could turn the knob between those
  39. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
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  41. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> I forget what the property's name was, but it used to be in Text.
  42. # [00:14] <zewt> (don't know if the approximate algorithm I sketched out could be made to do that)
  43. # [00:15] <zewt> i suppose it could
  44. # [00:15] <zewt> (i haven't tried implementing that in a real renderer and using it on real text, so I'm not 100% sure it'll actually work well in practice ... intuitively i think it will, though, at least for VTT-caption-size blocks of text)
  45. # [00:16] <zewt> i guess i could try faking it up with HTML
  46. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> Do it!
  47. # [00:16] <zewt> do eet
  48. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> You can even get exact width data - just measure a bunch of <span>s filled with characters.
  49. # [00:17] <zewt> i think i can do it just by adjusting the width of the container (reduce the width until just before the height starts increasing)
  50. # [00:17] <Hixie> all i want to do is change where hte line breaks go, i don't really care about this more complicated stuff :-)
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  52. # [00:18] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i think it's a white-space issue because in webvtt you either hard-wire the line breaks or you want the lines equally long
  53. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> It's not really - white-space is about the treatment of the actual whitespace characters in the markup.
  54. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> And it's kinda weird to have a value that means "based on this layout algorithm, treat some of the whitespace as linebreaks, regardless of what it was originally".
  55. # [00:19] <Hixie> TabAtkins: right, and the control is whether line breaks in the markup should be treated like 'pre-wrap' or 'normal with special line balancing'
  56. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> That "with special line balancing" has nothing to do with the linebreak in the markup.
  57. # [00:20] <Hixie> anyway like i said i don't really mind which property we put it on, my concern is just that we put it somewhere
  58. # [00:20] <Hixie> should i just do it in webvtt?
  59. # [00:20] <Hixie> or is there something i can point to?
  60. # [00:20] <Hixie> or will be able to soonish?
  61. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> What would "do it in webvtt" imply?
  62. # [00:20] <Hixie> adding text here: http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/#webvtt-cue-text-dom-construction-rules
  63. # [00:21] <Hixie> er, here: http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/#the-'::cue'-pseudo-element
  64. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> I mean would it involve making up a property?
  65. # [00:22] <zewt> seems like white-space is just a shortcut for text-space-collapse + text-wrap, and this would actually be a text-wrap property (whether or not it happens to have a white-space shortcut of its own)?
  66. # [00:23] <Hixie> TabAtkins: well i was just gonna make it work based on the white-space property, for webvtt :-)
  67. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> Oh, so that white-space:normal just had the special behavior?
  68. # [00:23] <Hixie> basically
  69. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> If that "basically" is "exactly", sounds fine.
  70. # [00:24] <zewt> huh
  71. # [00:24] <Hixie> but maybe by just inventing a new keyword and making that the ua.css default for ::cue
  72. # [00:24] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  73. # [00:24] <zewt> webvtt shouldn't have magic differing behavior for existing CSS properties, right?
  74. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> New keyword isn't fine, because *this isn't a behavior that white-space shoudl control*.
  75. # [00:24] * Hixie shrugs
  76. # [00:24] <Hixie> either way is fine by me, i just need to know what to do :-)
  77. # [00:24] <zewt> i'm not at all familiar with css specs--is http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#white-space real or imaginary?
  78. # [00:25] <Hixie> zewt: css3 text in general is imaginary
  79. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> zewt: Quite real.
  80. # [00:25] <zewt> you two aren't helping :)
  81. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> That property is real.
  82. # [00:26] <zewt> according to that, it looks like this belongs as "text-wrap: balanced", and whether white-space also has a new shortcut for it or not is secondary
  83. # [00:26] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  84. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> text-wrap is okay if you don't plan to have any additional control.
  85. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> Though it would be compatible to have the eventual min-last-line-length property only work if text-wrap is 'normal'.
  86. # [00:28] <Hixie> if it's a separate property you'd also want it to work with things like pre-wrap
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  88. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Yes, "white-space:pre-wrap;" decomposes to "text-wrap:normal; text-space-collapse: preserve;"
  89. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> So it's compatible to swap out text-wrap for "balanced" or something.
  90. # [00:29] <Hixie> ok
  91. # [00:30] <Hixie> so this is all fine except text-wrap doesn't really exist as far as i can tell
  92. # [00:30] <Hixie> i mean it's been specced for like a decade and no browser has shown any interest to implement it, no?
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  94. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> Good for you, then. You can just spec it for yourself with only two values.
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  98. # [00:32] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i don't expect implementors to implement a property just for webvtt, given that it would have implications on all of css
  99. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> I'm unsure why you think a new value for an existing property is any different.
  100. # [00:34] <Hixie> i dunno, seems like keywords get implemented more easily
  101. # [00:34] <Hixie> i could be wrong about that
  102. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> They're basically identical from an implementation standpoint.
  103. # [00:34] <Hixie> hmm
  104. # [00:35] <Hixie> well i guess i can spec text-wrap
  105. # [00:35] <Hixie> with 'normal' and 'balanced'
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  107. # [00:46] <Hixie> actually i don't think text-wrap is the right place
  108. # [00:46] <Hixie> it's another axis, really
  109. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> HAH
  110. # [00:46] <Hixie> that is only applicable at the block level
  111. # [00:47] <Hixie> so i'm kinda back to a new keyword on 'white-space'
  112. # [00:47] <zewt> TabAtkins: https://zewt.org/~glenn/balanced-wrapping.html it does seem to work fairly well
  113. # [00:47] <zewt> (obviously that's a dumb-slow way of doing it)
  114. # [00:47] <Hixie> basically a new column to the table in 3.4
  115. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> Hixie: white-space is a shorthand, so it's still not appropriate as a place to hang new values. ^_^
  116. # [00:47] <Hixie> TabAtkins: it's a shorthand only in theory
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  125. # [01:03] <Hixie> annevk: you around? character encoding heuristic detection for webvtt: something we can point to your spec for? no?
  126. # [01:03] <Hixie> annevk: also are you doing anything for script detection for font selection?
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  128. # [01:03] <Hixie> TabAtkins: do you know if the csswg is doing anything on script detection for font selection?
  129. # [01:05] <zewt> why would webvtt need encoding detection instead of being utf-8 only?
  130. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> More details? You want to check what font a specific element has?
  131. # [01:06] <zewt> Hixie: script detection--you mean @lang heuristics for CJK?
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  133. # [01:06] <Hixie> zewt: yeah
  134. # [01:06] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i mean the way that browsers pick which language glyphs to use for CJK characters
  135. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> Oh! That kind of script.
  136. # [01:06] <zewt> (i've never heard of anyone taking that seriously; it's hard enough to convince people that being able to tag languages is useful in the first place, much less language heuristics)
  137. # [01:07] <Hixie> zewt: utf-8 only is probably what we'll do, i'm just exploring options
  138. # [01:07] <zewt> crazytalk
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  140. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I think this is what we've got right now: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/#language-specific-support
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  143. # [01:10] <Hixie> TabAtkins: k. anyone working on that, do you know?
  144. # [01:10] <zewt> "If the ‘lang’ attribute is not defined, the default OpenType language system must be used." i doubt that'll ever happen with CJK ...
  145. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> Yeah, John Daggett.
  146. # [01:10] <Hixie> TabAtkins: k
  147. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> That's his only spec, and he lives in Japan, so I'm sure he'd be willing to tighten things up as necessary.
  148. # [01:11] <Hixie> zewt: since you are enthusiastic about the CJK problems there, do you want to post to the list about the problems with this being so underdefined? :-)
  149. # [01:11] <zewt> well, i don't have any *solutions*, unfortunately
  150. # [01:12] <zewt> basically @lang seems in exactly the same boat as default encodings: browsers end up having to use the user's language as part of figuring out the default, or else they get it wrong too often
  151. # [01:12] <zewt> which i hate, but like the encoding problem i have no idea how to fix it
  152. # [01:12] <Hixie> what do browsers do?
  153. # [01:13] <Hixie> that's what the spec should say, at a minimum
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  167. # [01:13] <zewt> okay not sure what just happened
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  169. # [01:14] <zewt> i'd need to refresh my memory, but I'm pretty sure IE has defaults depending on the user's browser, and I think FF does the same (with the browser language)
  170. # [01:16] <rafaelw_> Hixie: I'm working on a local patch for template element and I'm starting to wonder if it isn't smart to separate two concerns here: (a) context-free parsing, and (b) declaring inert DOM structures.
  171. # [01:16] <zewt> which has the same problem as when encodings do that: Japanese people see Japanese glyphs if they don't specify anything at all, so they don't specify anything, resulting in Japanese pages only looking right on Japanese-locale systems (vs. zh-TW/zh-CN)
  172. # [01:17] <rafaelw_> Ojan said (I think) that he should it would be reasonable to add something like innerHTML to DocumentFragment which would acomplish (a). I'm presuming there has been discussion of this in the past. What's your sense?
  173. # [01:18] <rafaelw_> (context-free parsing, specifically for HTML -- I'm assuming this issue is intrinsic to HTML parsing, but maybe I'm wrong).
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  182. # [01:27] <rafaelw_> Hixie: did you see my question (looks like you might have quit & rejoined)?
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  211. # [02:15] <Von_Davidicus> If a browser supports SVG, is there a 100% chance (or at least close) that it will support XHTML + SVG?
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  213. # [02:16] <TabAtkins> No.
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  217. # [02:20] <Von_Davidicus> What is the likelihood, then?
  218. # [02:21] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  219. # [02:21] <TabAtkins> It's high, but that's not a useful number. You need to know the specific versions of browsers that didn't support inline SVG.
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  222. # [02:30] <Von_Davidicus> Okay. *Is working on a way to let people know if their browser will support SVG+XHTML+CSS3*
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  242. # [03:36] <MikeSmith> jzaefferer: you around?
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  244. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: Syntax component added
  245. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> annevk: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/rev/94f075e5eabb seems to be working fine now
  246. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> I don't know what the problem was
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  262. # [05:47] <Von_Davidicus> Managed to scare a computer tech today. I've been saying over the past couple of weeks that I needed a computer that was over 15 years old repaired. And today, I brought it in.
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  277. # [08:22] <zcorpan> Hixie: text-wrap is supported in browsers (at least 'normal' and 'word-wrap')
  278. # [08:24] <zcorpan> though i think making white-space a shorthand for text-wrap might not be web-compatible (it'd make text-wrap reset if you do text-wrap:word-wrap; white-space:normal;)
  279. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: https://bitbucket.org/validator/validator/changeset/7dac5fb16df7
  280. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> hmm, isn't http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/#text-type-text-state-and-search-state-type-search supposed to redirect?
  281. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> dev.w3.org/html5/spec/#text-type-text-state-and-search-state-type-search does
  282. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> oh
  283. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> I guess that's because I added code on the w3c side to make it work
  284. # [08:34] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: LGTM
  285. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  290. # [09:02] <TomPenzer> I was thinking about the problem of support for double-res images for devices like Apple's Retina display, and I was wondering what ppl think of adding support for a <meta img-x2-res="_x2" /> tag, which would alert the browser of the likely presence of 'filename_x2.ext' when it sees img tags, and it would fall back with a second request for 'filename.ext' in case it's not found. This seems
  291. # [09:02] <TomPenzer> relatively easy to implement (especially for web developers), and degrades gracefully on older browsers.
  292. # [09:05] <Von_Davidicus> what does "img-x2-res" stand for?
  293. # [09:05] <TomPenzer> img times 2 resolution
  294. # [09:05] <TomPenzer> or double-resolution
  295. # [09:07] <Von_Davidicus> Hm.
  296. # [09:09] <TomPenzer> as a web developer, i would be eternally grateful! : P
  297. # [09:10] <TomPenzer> i mean, besides everything these people have already done to make that even possible
  298. # [09:13] <annevk> Hixie: yes, I do want to define encoding sniffing
  299. # [09:14] <annevk> Hixie: presumably by defining what Gecko has, unless someone has a better idea
  300. # [09:21] <TomPenzer> a more fleshed out version of the idea is to have the meta tag include a property for 'assume-present', as such: <meta img-x2-res="_x2" assume-present="false" />, and then for any img tags for which double-res assets are available, you could add a property to the img tag as such: <img x2-res="true" />. Or, you could leave the 'assume-present' property off, as 'true' is default, and put <img
  301. # [09:21] <TomPenzer> x2-res="false" /> on any images for which double-res assets are unavailable. This would avoid a second request when the first fails.
  302. # [09:22] <rniwa> annevk: hi
  303. # [09:22] <Von_Davidicus> How about x2-res work like sort of like a boolean attribute? If it's not there, it's *assumed* to be false?
  304. # [09:23] * Von_Davidicus rereads your post.
  305. # [09:23] <TomPenzer> yeah, if the meta tag isn't present, it's assumed to be false. The ="_x2" is to allow different developers to choose a double resolution filename key that works for their naming conventions
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  307. # [09:23] <Von_Davidicus> Oh, okay.
  308. # [09:23] <rniwa> annevk: we might need to re-visit the decision to make NodeList inherit from Array
  309. # [09:23] <Von_Davidicus> I have a question of my own: Is it acceptable to include a test in a webpage that will determine whether or not a browser will properly display something? What I have after a hyperlink is an <object> element that displays an XHTML + SVG page that shows a checkmark, coloured green via HSL notation. If the viewer sees that the checkmark is black, or doesn't show up at all, then the viewer knows that the browser won't properly support the page on t
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  311. # [09:24] <rniwa> annevk: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81573#c36 indicates that making this change isn't compatible with the Web :(
  312. # [09:27] <annevk> sad
  313. # [09:28] <annevk> just file a bug I guess if it doesn't work out and we'll revert the spec change
  314. # [09:28] <rniwa> annevk: yeah... not a happy ending :(
  315. # [09:28] <annevk> Von_Davidicus: acceptable measured how?
  316. # [09:28] <rniwa> annevk: i'll double check with arv before filing a bug
  317. # [09:29] <annevk> rniwa: not entirely unexpected I guess that changing such a core API breaks the web
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  319. # [09:29] <rniwa> annevk: right.
  320. # [09:29] <annevk> I'm curious what removing Attr nodes will do
  321. # [09:30] <Von_Davidicus> As in "considered a good idea by the webdeveloping community at large"
  322. # [09:31] <annevk> given that you can get on the final page directly, worrying about it is probably not worth it
  323. # [09:31] <Von_Davidicus> Hm?
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  327. # [09:36] <rniwa> annevk: yeah, that'll be an interesting adventure.
  328. # [09:52] <annevk> oh cool
  329. # [09:52] <annevk> WebKit has a shared encoding sniffing library
  330. # [09:52] <annevk> http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebCore/loader/TextResourceDecoder.cpp
  331. # [09:53] <annevk> is that really all WebKit has?
  332. # [09:53] <TomPenzer> worst idea ever: -webkit-image-set( url(image.png) 1x, url(image@2x.png) 2x )
  333. # [09:54] <annevk> TomPenzer: why?
  334. # [09:54] <annevk> zcorpan: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18270 says that "x-user-defined" must mean windows-1252
  335. # [09:55] <TomPenzer> because all the 2x images on my site are going to have the same "_2x" or "@2x" filename key, and i shouldn't have to do all this busy work
  336. # [09:57] <annevk> zcorpan: also https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15555 ugh
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  341. # [10:21] <annevk> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/extensions/universalchardet/src/base/JISFreq.tab#338 so why include it?
  342. # [10:21] <annevk> I wonder how much of the universalchardet code is still relevant
  343. # [10:21] <annevk> e.g. there's code for iso-2022-cn in there, which IE does not even support
  344. # [10:24] <annevk> and Thai was not detected before 2009? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=488426
  345. # [10:25] <annevk> I guess I should start keeping notes somewhere
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  347. # [10:32] <Von_Davidicus> If you wish to keep notes, I can suggest a few good music programs.
  348. # [10:35] <annevk> not sure if serious... or joking
  349. # [10:35] <Von_Davidicus> I was being ridiculous. :)
  350. # [10:36] <Von_Davidicus> I like to have a little pun with English now and then.
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  352. # [10:42] <annevk> hsivonen: why did you limit utf-16 sniffing to HTML?
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  355. # [10:48] <annevk> notes are tracked here http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Encoding#Sniffing
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  379. # [12:42] <annevk> what would also be interesting is Mozilla Telemetry data on universalchardet
  380. # [12:43] <annevk> but probably only if it's included in a non-beta release...
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  390. # [13:27] <annevk> oh sweet
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  392. # [13:28] <annevk> Fullscreen advocacy is already underway and only caters to WebKit/Gecko proprietary extensions
  393. # [13:28] * Ms2ger sighs
  394. # [13:29] <annevk> thank your colleague http://www.slideshare.net/robnyman/javascript-apis-the-web-is-the-platform-mdn-hack-day-buenos-aires :p
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  405. # [13:34] <Ms2ger> Boo
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  415. # [13:36] <annevk> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=746437 "I can't think of a good reason to not implement it as-is."
  416. # [13:36] <annevk> that's good at least
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  446. # [15:49] <ruby_on_tails> can anyone tell me why this is not working http://jsfiddle.net/uBXr2/1/ ?
  447. # [15:52] <smaug____> ruby_on_tails: onLoad
  448. # [15:52] <smaug____> it is onload
  449. # [15:52] <ruby_on_tails> oh
  450. # [15:52] <ruby_on_tails> it works now
  451. # [15:52] <ruby_on_tails> thanks
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  458. # [16:01] <hsivonen> annevk: I wasn't needed for anything else and it was late in the release cycle
  459. # [16:01] <hsivonen> annevk: the whole thing might have been an overreaction from a single data point
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  464. # [16:18] <annevk> hsivonen: Opera has something similar, but only checks the first four bytes
  465. # [16:20] <ruby_on_tails> smaug____: any idea why this doesnt grayscale the image ? http://jsfiddle.net/32f6h/
  466. # [16:22] <ruby_on_tails> weird, tried 3 codes from 3 different tutorial, none of them works, not sure whats wrong
  467. # [16:25] <Philip`> ruby_on_tails: You're not waiting for the image to finish loading, before you do the getImageData/putImageData code
  468. # [16:25] <ruby_on_tails> but there is the onload thing right ?
  469. # [16:25] <Philip`> so you're greyscaling the empty canvas and then (once the image has loaded, later) drawing the image
  470. # [16:26] <ruby_on_tails> i am trying http://spyrestudios.com/html5-canvas-image-effects-black-white/ and http://beej.us/blog/data/html5s-canvas-2-pixel/
  471. # [16:26] <Philip`> But it still won't work the other way around because if you drawImage an image from a different domain, then you're not allowed to call getImageData
  472. # [16:26] <ruby_on_tails> oh
  473. # [16:26] <ruby_on_tails> hmm
  474. # [16:26] <Philip`> to prevent people stealing image data from non-public sites
  475. # [16:26] <ruby_on_tails> let me try a local image then
  476. # [16:27] <ruby_on_tails> doesnt work on even a local image
  477. # [16:27] <Philip`> If you move the getImageData...putImageData code into the onload function, just after the drawImage, it should be closer to working
  478. # [16:30] <ruby_on_tails> bleh its my first day, i am not kind of getting it
  479. # [16:33] <Philip`> jsFiddle seems to already wrap your stuff in an onload thing, and runs it in some not-immediately-obvious domain
  480. # [16:33] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=1485 is a less confusing environment, and seems to work
  481. # [16:37] <ruby_on_tails> oh man
  482. # [16:37] <ruby_on_tails> i had to put the greyscaling code inside that onload
  483. # [16:38] <ruby_on_tails> it works now
  484. # [16:38] <ruby_on_tails> thanks Philip`
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  571. # [21:35] <shepazu> once I've used pushState() to shove parameters up into the URI, what event can I use instead of 'load' to get older param states as the user walks back through the history?
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  575. # [21:46] <zewt> popstate?
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  578. # [21:48] <shepazu> zewt: thanks, tried it, didn't work, nor did hashchange… wonder if I'm using it wrong, or if maybe it doesn't work in SVG for some reason?
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  581. # [21:54] <shepazu> ah, I think I was using it wrong
  582. # [21:54] <shepazu> :)
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  585. # [21:59] <shepazu> oh, popstate fires before the URI is changed… odd
  586. # [21:59] <shepazu> inconvenient if you're using the URI to store state in parameters
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  588. # [22:01] <zewt> uri where?
  589. # [22:01] <zewt> History.state is changed before popstate
  590. # [22:02] <zewt> (window.history.state)
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  594. # [22:04] <shepazu> zewt: thanks… I was using location.href
  595. # [22:05] <zewt> (also popstate's event.state)
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  597. # [22:06] <zewt> i'd expect that to be set before the events, too (don't know off-hand though)
  598. # [22:06] <zewt> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/history.html#history-traversal not sure which step that is, but i'd guess 5
  599. # [22:06] <shepazu> zewt: I'd have expected that too… SVG in FF doesn't seem to happen, though
  600. # [22:06] <zewt> (no clue about svg)
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  641. # [23:56] <GPHemsley> annevk: Is the goal of the encoding standard to intercept any non-UTF-8 encoding and output it as UTF-8? If not, would that be a good idea? (I'm not great with encodings.)
  642. # [23:56] <gsnedders> GPHemsley: given a definition of a decoder and a UTF-8 encoder you can do that
  643. # [23:57] <GPHemsley> gsnedders: Would that be a good thing to do? I'm just wondering
  644. # [23:57] <gsnedders> GPHemsley: The more important thing to define is how to get a sequence of Unicode codepoints from an encoding and how to get them to the encoding
  645. # [23:57] <gsnedders> GPHemsley: If you want to change the encoding of something, that's what you do. And the spec defines enough to do that. (As it defines all the decoders, and UTF-8 encoding is well-defined.)
  646. # [23:58] <GPHemsley> well presumably the user doesn't particularly care what the encoding is, as long as it looks like it's supposed to, right?
  647. # [23:58] <GPHemsley> and the encoding would only become relevant for copy and paste and the like
  648. # [23:58] <GPHemsley> (if we're talking only about browsers here)
  649. # [23:59] <gsnedders> Basically, all browsers have an internal Unicode representaiton, which is irrelevant what it is. (I believe everyone uses UTF-16.)
  650. # [23:59] <gsnedders> The important thing is how to decode the byte-stream, and how to encode to a byte-stream.
  651. # Session Close: Sun Apr 22 00:00:00 2012

The end :)