/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-04-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 24 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] <hober> WHATWGCGTF
  4. # [00:04] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.8.192) (Quit: othermaciej)
  5. # [00:04] <kennyluck> Can someone clarify that http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg/ is not the mailing list we are going to use?
  6. # [00:04] <Hixie> correct
  7. # [00:04] <hober> kennyluck: http://www.w3.org/community/about/faq/#can-a-community-group-use-its-own-infrastructure-not-hosted-by-w3c
  8. # [00:04] <Hixie> whatwg@whatwg.org is the mailing list
  9. # [00:04] <Hixie> basically nothing changes until we do an FSA publication
  10. # [00:05] <Hixie> and then we can get people to sign the patent policy
  11. # [00:05] <Hixie> if they want to
  12. # [00:05] <TabAtkins_> And I assume you'll kick off FSA publications regularly?
  13. # [00:05] <Hixie> yeah
  14. # [00:05] <Hixie> how often depends on how long it takes for key companies (esp. opera, mozilla, apple, google) to sign the first one
  15. # [00:06] <kennyluck> FWIW, no one mentioned this in these mails and I expect newcomers get confused because the list is closer to the homepage of the CG.
  16. # [00:06] <Hixie> i plan to fix that
  17. # [00:06] <Hixie> as soon as i'm a member of the CG :-P
  18. # [00:06] <kennyluck> :p
  19. # [00:06] <hober> kennyluck: CGs get auto-created once there are N supporters; the autogeneration script doesn't know how to handle cases where the CG already has infrastructure elsewhere. the links will get fixed.
  20. # [00:06] * Hixie has to wait for his AC rep to join his company before he can join the CG :-)
  21. # [00:06] * hober is in the same boat
  22. # [00:07] <TabAtkins_> At least I'll be able to join the CG once you do without bugging TV.
  23. # [00:07] <Hixie> hober: do you know if we have to get manual intervention to fix those links?
  24. # [00:07] <hober> Hixie: i don't, but I bet MikeSmith does.
  25. # [00:07] <Hixie> k
  26. # [00:07] <MikeSmith> which links?
  27. # [00:08] <hober> MikeSmith: the links from https://www.w3.org/community/whatwg/
  28. # [00:08] <hober> to the ml etc
  29. # [00:08] * MikeSmith takes a look
  30. # [00:08] <hober> those should all point to the whatwg.org equivalents
  31. # [00:08] <hober> and not the autogenerated thigns
  32. # [00:08] <hober> which should get removed
  33. # [00:09] <Hixie> ideally the wiki too
  34. # [00:09] <hober> and chat
  35. # [00:09] <Hixie> adn the irc link yeah
  36. # [00:09] <Hixie> maybe even the blog :-P
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  38. # [00:09] <Hixie> but i dunno how that'd work
  39. # [00:09] <Hixie> anyway, no rush
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  62. # [00:53] <kennyluck> Does anyone know why the WHATCG can go straightly from a proposed CG to an accepted one?
  63. # [00:54] * carbonix is now known as vcarbune
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  65. # [00:55] <TabAtkins_> If you get five signups it's automatically accepted.
  66. # [00:56] <kennyluck> TabAtkins_, I only see two in the list though.
  67. # [00:57] <TabAtkins_> Shrug.
  68. # [00:58] <kennyluck> I am really happy about this news. There's no longer a need to explain the relationship between W3C and WHATWG. Just join the W3C WHATCG!
  69. # [00:59] <othermaciej> it's accepted now
  70. # [00:59] <othermaciej> b/c there were 5 supporters
  71. # [00:59] <othermaciej> but supporting creation does not join you automatically
  72. # [00:59] <othermaciej> and for people who belong to member orgs, they need their AC rep to approve
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  74. # [01:00] <kennyluck> I see. It's still a bit mysterious to me that it gets accepted in 30 mins.
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  79. # [01:09] <Hixie> kennyluck: it's automated
  80. # [01:09] <Hixie> kennyluck: as far as i can tell
  81. # [01:09] <Hixie> kennyluck: that's what the documentation says anyway
  82. # [01:09] <Hixie> kennyluck: you just need five supporters
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  86. # [01:13] <zewt> now if only every cg didn't feel the strange need to set up their own, isolated mailing list ...
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  190. # [07:00] <shepazu> Hixie: I believe it is automated
  191. # [07:01] <shepazu> Hixie: you don't seem to have automatically been added, however…
  192. # [07:01] <Hixie> yeah, that's normal
  193. # [07:02] <shepazu> you should get Raman to add you, so you can be nominated chair
  194. # [07:02] <Hixie> right
  195. # [07:02] <shepazu> (seems odd to me… if you propose a CG and it gets accepted, you should be added automatically… but whatever)
  196. # [07:03] <shepazu> Hixie: are you planning on backporting old email archives into the new list, or what?
  197. # [07:03] <Hixie> we'll just use the existing list
  198. # [07:04] <Hixie> it basically changes nothing until we do an FSA -- see the e-mail to the WHATWG list
  199. # [07:04] * shepazu heard some rumors of W3C archiving WHATWG emails for posterity and searching, etc.
  200. # [07:04] <shepazu> ok, thanks
  201. # [07:04] <Hixie> yeah, i heard that might be happening
  202. # [07:05] <Hixie> it'd be awesome if so, the mailing list software the w3c uses is pretty awesome
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  206. # [07:06] <shepazu> Hixie: I'm not in the loop, but I thought it was already happening… if nothing else, you could import them into the automatic WHATCG list
  207. # [07:07] <Hixie> yeah i'm not in the loop either :-)
  208. # [07:07] <othermaciej> there's a loop?
  209. # [07:08] <shepazu> othermaciej: of course, what do you think W3M has been cycling around in for the past decade :)
  210. # [07:08] <othermaciej> I thought that was more of a drain
  211. # [07:08] * othermaciej ducks
  212. # [07:08] <shepazu> hmmm… one cyclical motion might have multiple explanations...
  213. # [07:09] <othermaciej> incidentally I'd guess a bunch of Apple folks will appear on the list once our AC rep clicks ok
  214. # [07:10] <shepazu> and poof! WHATWG has a patent policy!
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  218. # [07:31] <yuhong> Now, can MS join?
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  228. # [08:07] <annevk> The archiving the WHATWG mailing list on lists.w3.org is something I'm trying to get done, fwiw
  229. # [08:08] <othermaciej> long live WHATCG
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  233. # [08:13] <annevk> the logs promised drama, where can I find it in my inbox?
  234. # [08:13] <annevk> jgraham: ?
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  241. # [08:27] <othermaciej> annevk: maybe he though today's various announcements would lead to drama, which it appears they did not
  242. # [08:32] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: thanks for the test case :-)
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  244. # [08:33] <annevk> yeah, the only confusion seems to be over whether we became a CG or whether we now also have a CG, but it doesn't really matter
  245. # [08:33] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: afaict it should throw 7
  246. # [08:34] <othermaciej> I believe Hixie intends to use whatwg@whatwg.org as the CG mailing list (it meets the requirement of being publicly archived), so that's probably closer to becoming a CG
  247. # [08:34] <othermaciej> otoh I don't think he'll ban people who don't join the CG
  248. # [08:36] <annevk> afaik the plan is to 1) make the CG use WHATWG resources and 2) at some point in the future use it to publish "CG standards" so people can sign of on patents
  249. # [08:38] <othermaciej> yes, a CG can publish specifications with some sort of patent commitment
  250. # [08:39] <hsivonen> I wonder if whattw@whatwg.org could be forwarded to @w3.org to make use of the superior archival software
  251. # [08:39] <hsivonen> bonus points for copying the old archives there, too
  252. # [08:41] <annevk> hsivonen: W3C has been researching if they can archive our mailing list
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  255. # [08:42] <hsivonen> I slightly worried about getting a new editor for W3C HTML5
  256. # [08:43] <annevk> maybe they can make another XHTML 2.0
  257. # [08:43] <hsivonen> it isn't particularly helpful if W3C HTML5 snapshot starts deviating from the real Living HTML
  258. # [08:43] <hsivonen> though I do see the value of driving it to REC under the PP
  259. # [08:44] <hsivonen> the PP seems to be what's good about RECs
  260. # [08:44] <othermaciej> how well it works out will depend in large part on who volunteers and is appointed
  261. # [08:45] <annevk> I doubt any of the good people are interested in boring maintenance work
  262. # [08:45] <hsivonen> I hope the chairs already had someone willing and appointable figured out ahead of time
  263. # [08:46] <othermaciej> I am a fan of boring but necessary maintenance work, but I don't have the time to volunteer, plus it would be a huge conflict of interest
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  265. # [08:47] <hsivonen> hmm. no replies to my readyState email while I was asleep
  266. # [08:48] <annevk> othermaciej: as a chair of the Notifications WG, I was told I could be editor
  267. # [08:48] <othermaciej> www-archive contains a lot of quirky messages from Bjoern Hoehrmann this month
  268. # [08:49] <othermaciej> annevk: I can see how it might work in WGs with less attention on them and less likelihood of conflict than the html wg
  269. # [08:50] <othermaciej> in the past I have already been criticized for posting technical positions or reports on Apple's plans without explicitly saying "chair hat off"
  270. # [08:50] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.25.145)
  271. # [08:50] <annevk> hahaha
  272. # [08:50] <annevk> that group is a mess
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  274. # [08:54] <jgraham> annevk: This is the part of the drama where there is development of the storyline, not the sort of tense, but ultimately, pointless infighting, that is often labelled drama
  275. # [08:54] <jgraham> There's still plenty of scope for the other kind too of course
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  277. # [08:55] <jgraham> Just listen out for changes to the soundtrack
  278. # [08:56] <jgraham> hsivonen: I haven't replied to that email, but it seems quite reasonable to me
  279. # [08:56] <jgraham> I don't yet have anything technical to contribute beyond that
  280. # [08:57] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok. now I need sicking to return from vacation and approve the plan
  281. # [08:57] <hsivonen> it would be annoying to implement it and then get blocked at the review phase
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  286. # [09:09] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, you are correct
  287. # [09:09] <Ms2ger> Whether that's desirable...
  288. # [09:11] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/patent-policy
  289. # [09:11] <annevk> hsivonen: othermaciej: hober: ^^ does that blog post read okay?
  290. # [09:12] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
  291. # [09:12] <othermaciej> annevk: seems reasonable to me
  292. # [09:13] <annevk> cool cool
  293. # [09:13] <othermaciej> I would normally say to include the link for joining the CG, but I think Hixie is holding off on getting too many more people to join until his AC rep approves his own join request
  294. # [09:14] <annevk> that's the first link in the post actually
  295. # [09:14] <othermaciej> ah, I see
  296. # [09:14] <othermaciej> works4me
  297. # [09:15] <shepazu> othermaciej: I have a suggestion about the chair thing, so that nobody else selects a chair before hixie joins...
  298. # [09:15] <shepazu> we could make anne or mike5 or someone else temporary chair
  299. # [09:15] <othermaciej> shepazu: what is your suggestion?
  300. # [09:15] <shepazu> ^^
  301. # [09:15] <othermaciej> I see
  302. # [09:16] <shepazu> just a thought, might not be necessary
  303. # [09:16] <othermaciej> if Hixie was here I'd ask him
  304. # [09:16] <shepazu> a chair has the ability to elect other chairs
  305. # [09:16] <shepazu> and it is blocked from anyone else
  306. # [09:16] <othermaciej> he should certainly have dibs on picking the initial chair
  307. # [09:17] <shepazu> I'm just thinking we could avoid chicanery
  308. # [09:17] <shepazu> but I'm sure even so, it could be fixed by the systems team to appoint the right chair
  309. # [09:18] <annevk> if that's likely I think Hixie would be fine with Mike
  310. # [09:18] <shepazu> probably not necessary, really, but if you guys think it's worth doing, I'll select Mike5
  311. # [09:18] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: apparently we pass the test
  312. # [09:18] <Ms2ger> Nice!
  313. # [09:18] <othermaciej> it's only 10 people so far, I wouldn't sweat it
  314. # [09:19] <zcorpan> inorite
  315. # [09:19] <annevk> orly
  316. # [09:19] <shepazu> othermaciej: yeah, I'm sure people will be respectful, and proly raman will push the button tomorrow
  317. # [09:19] <Ms2ger> Opera got it right first
  318. # [09:19] <annevk> damn straight
  319. # [09:20] <Ms2ger> Now, when will you guys ship? In half a decade? :)
  320. # [09:20] <zcorpan> pro tip: if you want to use a custom exception with assert_throws, use an object with a 'name' property
  321. # [09:20] <shepazu> nice writeup of scoped css on css-tricks, link to a jquery polyfill http://css-tricks.com/saving-the-day-with-scoped-css/
  322. # [09:20] <zcorpan> or rewrite the assert_throws impl
  323. # [09:20] <hsivonen> annevk: I don't understand how the W3C Community Final Spec Agreement binds whatwg@whatwg subscribers who don't join the CG in any way
  324. # [09:20] <shepazu> hsivonen: it doesn't
  325. # [09:21] <shepazu> but that's a social problem
  326. # [09:21] <shepazu> well, I guess it's all a social problem, but I mean, you can ask people to jion
  327. # [09:21] <shepazu> 
  328. # [09:21] <shepazu> *join
  329. # [09:22] <othermaciej> it would be nice to get a broad set of people to at least agree to the CLA (which happens via joining) http://www.w3.org/community/about/agreements/cla/
  330. # [09:23] * Quits: jondong (~jondong@123.126.22.58) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  331. # [09:23] <annevk> hsivonen: FSA doesn't bind anyone
  332. # [09:23] <annevk> hsivonen: as you can read at the top
  333. # [09:24] <annevk> othermaciej: hmm true
  334. # [09:25] <annevk> othermaciej: I guess we should campaign for that later once the WHATCG website is updated some and everything is in place
  335. # [09:26] <othermaciej> indeed
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  338. # [09:36] * zcorpan pictures annevk walking around with a sign "PLZ JOIN WHATCG KTHXBYE"
  339. # [09:39] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, I've done the {name} thing :)
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  342. # [09:52] <shepazu> zcorpan: http://qkme.me/3oxwgi
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  350. # [10:07] <annevk> should blobParts not be a sequence<>?
  351. # [10:07] <Ms2ger> Same difference
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  353. # [10:08] <heycam> I tend to think of sequence<> as being a clearer indication of the function not retaining any references to the object passed in
  354. # [10:09] <heycam> and makes it easier not to stuff up if you have a genuine platform array object hanging around
  355. # [10:09] <annevk> maybe methods should only be allowed to take a sequence then?
  356. # [10:10] <heycam> I think there are legitimate reasons for taking an array type, if for example you do have platform array objects
  357. # [10:10] <heycam> but it would be hard to tell from the IDL whether you might have platform array objects being returned from any operation/attribute, or whether it makes sense to accept them as an argument
  358. # [10:11] <Ms2ger> heycam, is there a clear description of the differences between sequences and arrays somewhere in the spec?
  359. # [10:11] * Joins: skylamer` (cgskylamer@78.90.213.55)
  360. # [10:12] <heycam> Ms2ger, there's no section contrasting the two types
  361. # [10:12] <Ms2ger> Would be nice to have ;)
  362. # [10:12] <heycam> wonder what happened to that idea of the web spec best practices guide
  363. # [10:13] <Ms2ger> Oh, robin's thing?
  364. # [10:13] <heycam> yeah
  365. # [10:13] <Ms2ger> I dunno
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  371. # [10:18] <Von_Davidicus> Question: How many people use computers so old they only support 8-character file names and 3-character extensions?
  372. # [10:18] <zcorpan> which objects support indexed properties but don't have a 'length'?
  373. # [10:19] <zcorpan> should webidl require them to have a length?
  374. # [10:19] <heycam> zcorpan, I couldn't think of one off the top of my head
  375. # [10:19] <heycam> zcorpan, (if you ignore SVGCrazyLists, which have numberOfItems)
  376. # [10:20] <heycam> zcorpan, (and which haven't been rewritten in Web IDL yet and don't have indexed properties really anyway)
  377. # [10:20] <Ms2ger> heycam, don't they have length as well in Gecko?
  378. # [10:20] <jgraham> numberOfItems?
  379. # [10:20] <jgraham> Really?
  380. # [10:20] <jgraham> That's funny
  381. # [10:20] <heycam> Ms2ger, I think you're right, jwatt added that
  382. # [10:20] <heycam> jgraham, super ergonomic hey
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  384. # [10:21] <jgraham> It's self-satire
  385. # [10:21] <zcorpan> heycam: what about the second question? :-)
  386. # [10:22] <heycam> zcorpan, should it require it? maybe...
  387. # [10:23] <Ms2ger> And does it ever make sense to look at the length property of a platform objects that support indexed properties?
  388. # [10:23] <heycam> you know technically you can even define the set of supported indexed properties as { 4, 26, 3943 }
  389. # [10:23] <heycam> not sure what length would be then ;)
  390. # [10:24] <zcorpan> length would be whatever such a spec defines it to be :-P
  391. # [10:25] <zcorpan> i dunno, i think it seems consistent to check length for objects that support indexed properties if they all have a length today
  392. # [10:26] <heycam> but if length remains an accessor property, and you put a length property on the object itself...
  393. # [10:26] <annevk> heycam: if that's technically possible, but nobody requires it, it seems a simpler design would do
  394. # [10:27] <zcorpan> we shouldn't optimize for edge cases evil people like Ms2ger or myself come up with
  395. # [10:27] <heycam> heh
  396. # [10:27] <heycam> I would be in favour of always exposing a length
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  398. # [10:27] <zcorpan> very well then :-)
  399. # [10:28] <heycam> maybe even returning it to an instance property instead of a prototype one
  400. # [10:28] <zcorpan> is that how Array has it?
  401. # [10:28] <Ms2ger> Don't listen to the JS people ;)
  402. # [10:28] <Ms2ger> Array and Typed Arrays, I think
  403. # [10:29] <zcorpan> k. i don't have an opinion either way about that
  404. # [10:29] <heycam> on one hand I hear tell of slowness from having the property on the prototype, on the other I hear that maybe native Arrays will have length as a prototype property some time in the future
  405. # [10:30] <zcorpan> is the slowness specific to length or applies to properties in general?
  406. # [10:31] <heycam> I don't know
  407. # [10:31] <heycam> you would think it's everything
  408. # [10:31] <heycam> but it might be showing up in code like for (var i = 0; i < blah.length; i++) ...
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  413. # [10:38] <Philip`> Von_Davidicus: I imagine it'd be none that are capable of browsing the web in any kind of bearable way
  414. # [10:38] <Philip`> Von_Davidicus: (since Win95 added long filename support)
  415. # [10:38] <Von_Davidicus> Ah, okay.
  416. # [10:38] <Philip`> Von_Davidicus: I guess the more common case is people with OSes that do support long filenames, but with some kind of weird filesystem (probably a network one) that doesn't
  417. # [10:39] <Von_Davidicus> It was Win95. My mother remembered that Win98 had it.
  418. # [10:39] <Von_Davidicus> *Was trying to remember which Windows added it*
  419. # [10:41] * Philip` suggests using Wikipedia instead of trying to remember things :-)
  420. # [10:41] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.25.145) (Quit: bbl)
  421. # [10:42] <Philip`> (Win95 came with long names like "C:\Program Files" by default, I think)
  422. # [10:42] <Von_Davidicus> *Reads up on Microsoft Windows.* Tsk, tsk. Such language.
  423. # [10:43] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-stabilization-plan.html
  424. # [10:43] <annevk> I don't understand Q1b second bullet point
  425. # [10:44] <annevk> it's public-html, not public_html...
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  428. # [10:48] <annevk> afaict this will be a gigantic mess
  429. # [10:49] <annevk> that's my prediction for this so-called "stabilization"
  430. # [10:50] <Von_Davidicus> When has HTML ever been anything else? :) *Looks at his own pages, JavaScript and all, and compares it to his bachelor pad.
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  458. # [12:04] <hsivonen> Is the HTTP Link header used outside test suites and publications by Hixie and annevk?
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  465. # [12:17] <annevk> hsivonen: matjas also uses it to impress his posse :p
  466. # [12:17] <matjas> :')
  467. # [12:17] <matjas> hsivonen: it’s used here, too: http://eligrey.com/blog/post/title-image-files-in-opera
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  469. # [12:24] <hsivonen> matjas: thanks. I'm still unconvinced that Link headers should be kept considering their cost/benefit characteristics
  470. # [12:24] <annevk> I'm actually in favor of removing them
  471. # [12:24] <annevk> Hixie is not
  472. # [12:25] <annevk> nobody else cares I think
  473. # [12:25] <annevk> if you can get them removed from Gecko that would be most excellent
  474. # [12:25] <annevk> I'm not sure why we have kept them in Opera
  475. # [12:25] <hsivonen> annevk: it seems Julian cares, considering that I just review a patch of his that improves Link support in Gecko
  476. # [12:26] <hsivonen> *reviewed
  477. # [12:26] <annevk> good point, the few open issues we have in Opera are also per Julian
  478. # [12:27] <annevk> not sure that the HTML and HTTP editor wanting a pet feature in browsers is a good reason to have it though
  479. # [12:28] * zcorpan wonders how to match a newline with grep -Ez
  480. # [12:29] <annevk> hsivonen: <meta http-equiv=link> has been removed from Gecko already: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=587928
  481. # [12:29] <annevk> hsivonen: not yet from Opera
  482. # [12:31] * jgraham is +1 on seeing them die fwiw
  483. # [12:32] <annevk> I can't seem to find a bug in Opera on removing it
  484. # [12:32] <annevk> I'll file one
  485. # [12:35] <annevk> hsivonen: is there a bug on Gecko already?
  486. # [12:35] <annevk> hsivonen: I'm willing to file one
  487. # [12:35] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://simon.html5.org/dump/link-headers.txt
  488. # [12:36] <zcorpan> 7 style sheet links it seems
  489. # [12:37] <hsivonen> annevk: I don'tknow
  490. # [12:37] <hsivonen> zcorpan: out of how many pages in total?
  491. # [12:39] <zcorpan> "roughly 600,000 pages"
  492. # [12:39] <zcorpan> says http://dotnetdotcom.org/
  493. # [12:39] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. so tiny, tiny fraction
  494. # [12:39] <annevk> hsivonen: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=748294
  495. # [12:40] * Philip` counted more like 400K pages in their data, not 600K
  496. # [12:46] <zcorpan> link: <http://www2.aapg.org/favicon.ico>; REL=shortcut icon
  497. # [12:47] <annevk> parse error!
  498. # [12:48] <zcorpan> $ grep -aEcz "^HTTP/1\.1" web200904
  499. # [12:48] <zcorpan> 417486
  500. # [12:50] <annevk> can't you grep for the null byte separate sequence?
  501. # [12:51] <zcorpan> ok so it's 0.0017% of the pages having a stylesheet Link: (assuming the style sheet links were on different pages)
  502. # [12:52] <annevk> -- Simon "stats" Pieters
  503. # [12:53] <hsivonen> considering how many site-specific duplicate headers there were, counting things per-site rather than per-page probably makes Link even more rare
  504. # [12:54] <annevk> yeah for stylesheet it's only </styles/styles.css> or <../css/YoStyle.css>
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  509. # [13:25] * hsivonen finally got around to posting about UTF-32 strings in JS
  510. # [13:25] <hsivonen> (to Mozilla's development forum)
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  514. # [13:31] <annevk> hsivonen: pointer?
  515. # [13:32] <annevk> hsivonen: note that I think the new proposal is not about using utf-32 anymore
  516. # [13:32] <annevk> hsivonen: http://norbertlindenberg.com/2012/03/ecmascript-supplementary-characters/ suggests an expanded String API so you can index it by code point too
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  518. # [13:33] <annevk> found it
  519. # [13:33] <annevk> http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.platform/browse_thread/thread/b81179d718ed660d
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  521. # [13:36] <hsivonen> annevk: well, if I'm late and they are going to stick to UTF-16, hooray
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  523. # [13:41] <annevk> hsivonen: they seem to be very bad at updating wiki proposals
  524. # [13:42] <annevk> hsivonen: the wiki page you are pointing to for instance is last updated in 2011
  525. # [13:43] <annevk> I could have another mini-rant about TC39 not really being that great, but will save that for another time
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  529. # [13:48] <annevk> zcorpan: btw, the other day I made http://html5.org/temp/spectable.html illustrating spec encodings versus how they're implemented in browsers combined with label information
  530. # [13:49] <annevk> zcorpan: I will probably use that to add extra labels to the specification; I no longer think that being conservative is a good idea here, though if only one or two implementations support a label it's probably not worth it
  531. # [13:54] <zcorpan> annevk: ok
  532. # [13:59] <jgraham> hsivonen: http://hoppipolla.co.uk/tests/document_readystate/ I started testcasing your demos based on what you said the spec ought to look like
  533. # [14:00] <jgraham> (I haven't got very far as you see)
  534. # [14:02] <jgraham> It's not always obvious what the most significant testable criterion should be
  535. # [14:03] <jgraham> Although I guess I could simplify the whole problem and just build an array of the expected log lines and compare that against a pre-determined array
  536. # [14:03] <jgraham> Actually that could be very quick and easy. Won't make for the best tests though
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  539. # [14:05] <hsivonen> jgraham: nice. thanks
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  543. # [14:42] <zcorpan> should http://simon.html5.org/specs/quirks-mode#the-:active-and-:hover-quirk apply to querySelector?
  544. # [14:43] <zcorpan> we made querySelector selectors case-insensitive in quirks mode, which suggests this quirk should probably apply as well
  545. # [14:43] <zcorpan> class selectors
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  551. # [15:02] <annevk> via marcos: http://www.w3.org/community/groups/proposed/#opentag
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  554. # [15:06] <zcorpan> TACG
  555. # [15:06] <zcorpan> up next: W3CG
  556. # [15:07] <annevk> oh, I was thinking "open tag" / "close tag" / "empty tag"
  557. # [15:07] <kennyluck> That paragraph (:active and :hover quirk) is hard to parse :(
  558. # [15:08] <zcorpan> kennyluck: yeah... suggestions?
  559. # [15:08] <kennyluck> zcorpan, make it into a list of conditions?
  560. # [15:08] <kennyluck> By the way, should "that are not part of an argument to a functional pseudo-class or pseudo-element" include ::before:hover in Selectors4?
  561. # [15:08] <annevk> the way we made Selectors case-insensitive was kind of annoying, as in some/all? impl case was preserved in the style sheet
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  563. # [15:10] <kennyluck> never mind, I guess ::before never matches :any-link.
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  566. # [15:14] <zcorpan> a functional pseudo-class or pseudo-element is like :not(:hover)
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  569. # [15:18] <zcorpan> kennyluck: your name is KangHao Lu ?
  570. # [15:19] <kennyluck> Kang-Hao Lu.
  571. # [15:20] <zcorpan> ok fixed, thanks!
  572. # [15:20] <zcorpan> i hope it's equivalent :-)
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  574. # [15:23] <kennyluck> I think it.
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  578. # [15:27] <kennyluck> zcorpan, is it true that 'left', 'top' and 'bottom' support unitless value but not 'bottom'? That seems super insane.
  579. # [15:28] <kennyluck> unitless length, I mean.
  580. # [15:28] <zcorpan> it's true per spec :-)
  581. # [15:29] <kennyluck> s/and 'bottom'/and 'right'/
  582. # [15:29] <zcorpan> 'bottom' fell under my cutoff in the data i looked at (see the spec's source)
  583. # [15:31] <zcorpan> (or http://simon.html5.org/sandbox/bookmarklets/reveal-comments )
  584. # [15:33] <kennyluck> zcorpan, found it. Thanks.
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  599. # [16:34] * zcorpan added a check for SVG fill="" in http://simon.html5.org/test/quirks-mode/js/hashless-hex-color.html
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  613. # [16:46] <cbright6062> I have a question, if it isn't too much of a problem: I know in HTML5, you can use both XHTML formatting for self closing tags, and the now re-standard non-trailing slash closing on such tags. I was curious though, talk of "compatibility with XHTML" aside, which would you say is truly the correct/recommended/best practice method? Thanks.
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  615. # [16:49] <annevk> cbright6062: it's community dependent, it's pretty much like asking whether attr='test' or attr="test" is better, or whether your attributes should be alphabetically ordered, or what kind of indentation you should use
  616. # [16:49] <cbright6062> hmm.
  617. # [16:49] <Philip`> cbright6062: Since trailing slashes are ignored, it's probably more confusing to include them - people will mistakenly think that e.g. <script src="foo.js"/> is a correct thing to do, because they'll associate self-closingness with the "/", instead of (correctly) associating it with the tag name
  618. # [16:49] <cbright6062> interesting. I would've guessed there would be a standard for this sort of thing by this point.
  619. # [16:50] <cbright6062> of course, when it comes to the XML/XHTML formatting rules, it's always been a controversial world.
  620. # [16:50] <Philip`> cbright6062: There are - in fact, there are dozens of formatting standards you can pick from :-)
  621. # [16:51] <gsnedders> cbright6062: Look at placement of new lines v. brackets in C-like language — there's plenty of coding standards everywhere.
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  623. # [16:51] <cbright6062> I've been adding the trailing slashes myself in the past. Most of this though was because the guy who taught me HTML was an XHTML elitest. lol
  624. # [16:51] <zcorpan> USE ALL THE SLASHES, KTHXBYE
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  626. # [16:53] <cbright6062> Regardless, thank you for your help.
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  637. # [17:26] <jgraham> Oh, is the idea that <foo/> != <foo> what they mean by "Slash Fiction"?
  638. # [17:27] <divya> I AM OHing that jgraham
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  674. # [18:26] <Hixie> hsivonen: the CG won't bind anyone to the CLA, but that's ok, because the CLA only binds people as far as their textual contributions go, and so far with very few exceptions i've written all the text
  675. # [18:26] <Hixie> hsivonen: so it means we can just get the people who have textual contributions to make sign the CLA, and otherwise not worry about it until FSA time.
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  677. # [18:28] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, and when you actually publish you can get people to voluntarily make patent grants on the full document, I believe.
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  687. # [18:49] * kennyluck never understands how these work.
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  713. # [19:48] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  714. # [19:49] <Ms2ger> Bonsoir
  715. # [19:50] <kennyluck> good midnight.
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  720. # [19:52] <TabAtkins_> merry christmas
  721. # [19:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: that leaves a pretty big hole for malicious idea submissions, but so does the REC Process
  722. # [19:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: while it's an imptovement, I think it doesn't solve thatmuch compared to the old WHATWG situation
  723. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> Sounds like the W3C, then
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  734. # [20:15] <hober> MikeSmith: what's the purpose of public-whatwg-contrib as being distinct from the whatwg list?
  735. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> hober: dunno
  736. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> I thought it was required for the CLA in some way
  737. # [20:15] <hober> ahh, ok
  738. # [20:16] <MikeSmith> but don't take my word for that
  739. # [20:16] <MikeSmith> I'm not really read up on the CG process/policy stuff
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  742. # [20:40] <karlcow> hober: http://www.w3.org/community/about/tool/#lists
  743. # [20:41] <hober> karlcow: thanks
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  752. # [20:59] <jwalden> hmm, is whatwg.org down? downforeveryone says yes
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  755. # [21:00] <Ms2ger> Is for me
  756. # [21:01] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: do you know who pansb5@chinaunicom.cn is?
  757. # [21:01] <Ms2ger> China Unicorn?
  758. # [21:02] <WeirdAl> jwalden: www.whatwg.org loads fine for me (
  759. # [21:02] <jwalden> hm, now it's loading again
  760. # [21:02] <jwalden> oddment
  761. # [21:04] <kennyluck> MikeSmith, I only heard of his name from Chen Bo. My guess is that he quitted China Unicom.
  762. # [21:04] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: think it's OK if I remove his address from the ig list?
  763. # [21:05] <kennyluck> MikeSmith, yes. He never posts to the list and it's only causing us trouble.
  764. # [21:05] <MikeSmith> yeah
  765. # [21:05] <MikeSmith> saw a message from foolip about it
  766. # [21:05] <MikeSmith> oh
  767. # [21:06] <MikeSmith> not showing up in the subscriber list no more
  768. # [21:06] <MikeSmith> so maybe somebody else removed it
  769. # [21:06] <kennyluck> MikeSmith, I sent a mail to sysreq@w3.org. I thought they asked you to handle this.
  770. # [21:06] * vcarbune|away is now known as vcarbune
  771. # [21:07] <kennyluck> Did they remove him? Or he just removes himself from the list?
  772. # [21:07] <MikeSmith> oh, it seems he's in the user db
  773. # [21:07] <MikeSmith> will remove him there
  774. # [21:08] <kennyluck> MikeSmith, thanks!
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  809. # [22:26] <annevk> hsivonen: it does
  810. # [22:27] <annevk> hsivonen: FSA gives companies the ability to say they will not put any restrictions in place on implementing the specification (i.e. declare it RF from their point of view); the expectation is that at least some will do so
  811. # [22:27] <Hixie> hsivonen: given that i take ideas from everyone including random blog posts, i don't see how to avoid the risk of "malicious idea submissions".
  812. # [22:28] <annevk> hsivonen: we'll have to find out whether it actually happens in practice
  813. # [22:29] <Hixie> hsivonen: (it turns the whatwg patent situation into a situation better than the htmlwg situation, so i think it's a pretty big improvement)
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  818. # [22:44] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: do you know if feedback to css is tracked anywhere? (i.e. is there any way to know the status of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Apr/0572.html ?)
  819. # [22:45] <TabAtkins_> Depends on the spec - tracking is at the discretion of the editor.
  820. # [22:45] <TabAtkins_> In this case, that's fantasai.
  821. # [22:45] <TabAtkins_> who happens to be sitting at my desk with me today.
  822. # [22:45] <TabAtkins_> (But is away momentarily.)
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  824. # [22:47] * miketaylr is now known as miketaylrawaylol
  825. # [22:47] <Hixie> roger
  826. # [22:48] <Hixie> let me know when she's back :-)
  827. # [22:48] <TabAtkins_> she's back.
  828. # [22:49] <Hixie> ask her what the state of my e-mail is :-)
  829. # [22:49] <annevk> did anyone raise the fullscreen extensions on www-style btw?
  830. # [22:51] <Hixie> i thought tantek was going to
  831. # [22:51] <Hixie> since he's still a csswg member (right?)
  832. # [22:51] <TabAtkins_> It's added to Issue 241 in the tracker for css4-text
  833. # [22:51] <Hixie> and he's an editor of the fullscreen spec
  834. # [22:51] <TabAtkins_> tantek is a member. I don't think anyone has yet.
  835. # [22:51] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: k thanks. i don't suppose there's an ETA for when browsers might be implementing anything that results from that issue...?
  836. # [22:51] <TabAtkins_> Nope.
  837. # [22:51] <Hixie> k
  838. # [22:52] <Hixie> i'll just make it a requirement in vtt for now like the emergency wrapping, rather than invent a new keyword or something
  839. # [22:52] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  840. # [22:52] <TabAtkins_> Sure.
  841. # [22:52] <Hixie> thanks
  842. # [22:52] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@freenet6.org)
  843. # [22:53] <annevk> tantek has not edited the fullscreen spec though he did supply microformat markup for the author data and did some politics around it
  844. # [22:54] <fantasai> hixie: I won't be working on it until writing modes and css3-text hit CR. I would like for that to be soon, but that depends on things outside my control...
  845. # [22:55] <fantasai> hixie: wrt when I'd work on it after that, depends on the interest from implementers in something like that
  846. # [22:55] <Hixie> k
  847. # [22:56] <Hixie> do we have a term that refers to the set of lines resulting from line-wrapping something that in the original tree is one "line"?
  848. # [22:56] <Hixie> e.g. in <pre>foo<br>bar bar bar<br>baz</pre> wrapped with width:0, the string "bar bar bar"
  849. # [22:56] <annevk> [22:49:17.704] TypeError: Image is not a constructor wtf Gecko
  850. # [22:56] <fantasai> hm, I don't think so
  851. # [22:56] <fantasai> I think I just describe it as a consecutive run without forced line breaks or something like that
  852. # [22:57] * fantasai checks
  853. # [22:57] <Hixie> k
  854. # [22:58] * miketaylrawaylol is now known as miketaylr
  855. # [22:58] <fantasai> yeah, don't seem to have a term for it
  856. # [22:58] <fantasai> if you've got a suggestion, I can try to incorporate one into the text...
  857. # [22:59] <Hixie> consecutive works
  858. # [22:59] <fantasai> consecutive what?
  859. # [22:59] * fantasai didn't really need the term, so doesn't have one
  860. # [22:59] <Hixie> consecutive bla bla between bla bla
  861. # [22:59] <Hixie> i'll paste my resulting text in a second for comment
  862. # [23:00] <fantasai> ok
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  864. # [23:00] * fantasai still has no idea what you mean
  865. # [23:00] <fantasai> most of the spec right now just talks about the first line or last line of the set you're talking about
  866. # [23:01] <fantasai> or the "first formatted line", which is something different...
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  868. # [23:02] <Hixie> is there a term for "explicit line break that the white-space property honours"?
  869. # [23:03] <Hixie> "preserved newlines" i guess
  870. # [23:03] <fantasai> we call it a forced line break
  871. # [23:03] <Hixie> is that do you have a url to that definition?
  872. # [23:04] <fantasai> best one I've got is file:///home/fantasai/w3c/csswg/css3-text/Overview.html#white-space-collapsing
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  874. # [23:04] <fantasai> er
  875. # [23:04] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-text/#white-space-collapsing
  876. # [23:04] <fantasai> But I should link up that term.
  877. # [23:04] <fantasai> and get you a better link
  878. # [23:05] * fantasai adds this to the to-do list
  879. # [23:05] <Hixie> i recommend using "newlines" like CSS2
  880. # [23:05] <Hixie> so that we don't get terminology drift
  881. # [23:06] <Hixie> ok here's the text i'm currently looking at (not sure i like it, but review welcome while i try to polish it more):
  882. # [23:06] <Hixie> <li>Regardless of the value of the 'white-space' property,
  883. # [23:06] <Hixie> any line breaks inserted by the user agent for the purposes
  884. # [23:06] <Hixie> of line wrapping must be placed so as to minimise &Delta;
  885. # [23:06] <Hixie> across each run of consecutive lines between preserved
  886. # [23:06] <Hixie> newlines in the source. &Delta; for a set of lines is defined
  887. # [23:06] <Hixie> as the sum over each line of the absolute of the difference
  888. # [23:06] <Hixie> between the line's length and the mean line length of the
  889. # [23:06] <Hixie> set.</li>
  890. # [23:08] <fantasai> I'd suggest s/preserved newlines in the source/forced line breaks/
  891. # [23:08] <fantasai> you can have breaks inserted by generated content, for example, so it's not really in the source.
  892. # [23:08] <Hixie> there's no generated content in vtt, since you can't stack pseudos
  893. # [23:08] * fantasai rewrote the whole section on white space several times trying to get it all coherent
  894. # [23:08] <fantasai> ok
  895. # [23:09] <fantasai> I think what you're requiring is a bit more stringent than what Glenn Maynard was requesting
  896. # [23:10] <fantasai> or looser
  897. # [23:10] <fantasai> hm
  898. # [23:11] <fantasai> but
  899. # [23:11] <fantasai> basically, I think what he was suggesting was to narrow the containing block width
  900. # [23:11] <fantasai> until the last line came as close to filling the containing block without overflowing as possible
  901. # [23:11] <fantasai> and that would be sufficient
  902. # [23:11] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  903. # [23:11] <fantasai> even though it's not optimal
  904. # [23:11] <fantasai> for your definition, you'd also have to consider all the other lines and how they wrapped
  905. # [23:11] <fantasai> you can't just use a greedy line breaking algorithm
  906. # [23:12] <fantasai> you really would have to balance all the lines
  907. # [23:12] <Hixie> that's the idea, yes
  908. # [23:12] <fantasai> that's the ideal :)
  909. # [23:12] * Joins: jacobg (~jacobg@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
  910. # [23:12] <fantasai> but it's probably not necessary to go that far
  911. # [23:12] <Hixie> unless there's a reason to avoid doing the ideal, by definition, we should do the ideal...
  912. # [23:12] <fantasai> performance
  913. # [23:12] * tantek scrolls up
  914. # [23:13] <tantek> No I haven't edited the spec since it got checked into w3c hg. I edited the fullscreen spec back when it was on the Mozilla wiki.
  915. # [23:14] * fantasai also suspects implementation complexity counts here
  916. # [23:14] <fantasai> what Glenn suggests can be done without changing how line breaking is implemented
  917. # [23:14] * tantek still hasn't successfully gotten W3C/CSS hg setup working. Last tried during the Paris f2f, got stuck, documented the problems on the CSSWG wiki hg page, and hasn't had time for wrestling with stupid IT tools since.
  918. # [23:14] <fantasai> just by implementing a separate balancing step that does a binary balancing search, like multi-col
  919. # [23:15] <Hixie> unless someone can demonstrate that trying to balance the lengths of two lines is too expensive, i don't buy "performance" as a reason
  920. # [23:15] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f7309b3.pool.mediaWays.net)
  921. # [23:15] <tantek> annevk, hixie, I can raise the fullscreen CSS feature on www-style if you haven't already done so. Happy to kick that off.
  922. # [23:15] <fantasai> Hixie: two lines is fine
  923. # [23:15] <fantasai> Hixie: It's when you have 200 that it gets to be an issue...
  924. # [23:15] <Hixie> tantek: i'm happy for it to just be in teh fullscreen spec, personally :-)
  925. # [23:15] <Hixie> tantek: so anne's your man on that
  926. # [23:16] <Hixie> fantasai: if someone tries to make a 200-line caption, they'll have bigger problems
  927. # [23:16] <tantek> Hixie, it will be just in the fullscreen spec.
  928. # [23:16] <fantasai> Hixie: fair enough :) It's a problem for defining a CSS property, though
  929. # [23:16] <Hixie> oh sure
  930. # [23:16] <tantek> WebApps WG put fullscreen in their charter as well, and wanted to take it over, however I proposed (and CSSWG agreed) that it should be a joint WG effort, and given we have an editor in each group, we're all set.
  931. # [23:17] * Quits: divya (~divya@deepak.jois.name) (Quit: toodles)
  932. # [23:17] <annevk> tantek: the "top layer" concept should really be in whatever CSS spec ends up defining boxes properly, but if CSS is not going to do that soon it might as well be in fullscreen
  933. # [23:17] <tantek> annevk - we should define the "top layer" concept in Fullscreen in such a way that Dialog can reference it
  934. # [23:17] <annevk> tantek: I'm not sure the process allows for editors to be in only one of the groups
  935. # [23:17] <annevk> tantek: that's already done
  936. # [23:17] <tantek> great
  937. # [23:18] <tantek> annevk - I don't know of any process requirement for both editors to be in both groups, so I'm not worried.
  938. # [23:18] <annevk> mkay, I don't care much for the politics
  939. # [23:20] <Hixie> man i love having the spec be autogenerated from the CLDR and MathML Unicode data files
  940. # [23:20] <Hixie> every now and then when i regen the spec i get a huge diff that i didn't write that makes it more up to date. :-D
  941. # [23:22] <tantek> annevk - I'll try to minimize your exposure to the politics.
  942. # [23:23] * fantasai goes back to the flexbox algo and notes this will require all available stack space
  943. # [23:23] * eric_carlson is now known as ericc|away
  944. # [23:23] * fantasai will look at IRC later
  945. # [23:23] <tantek> it's the least I can do since you've been dealing with the hg edits
  946. # [23:25] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-15-68.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  947. # [23:26] <annevk> Hixie: the only problem I guess is that such changes are hidden from the tracker
  948. # [23:26] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  949. # [23:27] <Hixie> true
  950. # [23:27] <annevk> and entities changing would be quite shocking I think without prior coordination
  951. # [23:27] <annevk> dunno about the :lang experiment
  952. # [23:30] <Hixie> speaking of which
  953. # [23:30] * Hixie adds new "entities"
  954. # [23:31] * Quits: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@mau49-1-82-245-46-173.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: tzing)
  955. # [23:31] <annevk> Hixie: to WebVTT?
  956. # [23:31] <Hixie> yeah :-)
  957. # [23:31] <Hixie> &lrm; and &rlm;
  958. # [23:32] <annevk> is that bidi? didn't those guys prefer markup?
  959. # [23:33] <Hixie> that is markup
  960. # [23:34] <annevk> meant an element
  961. # [23:38] <Hixie> dunno how lrm/rlm would work as an element, unless you mean something like the dir="" attribute
  962. # [23:38] <Hixie> but that seems more complicated to me than just a mark
  963. # [23:40] <annevk> fair enough
  964. # [23:40] <annevk> reminds me of http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-July/012235.html
  965. # [23:43] * Quits: graememcc (~chatzilla@host86-148-26-43.range86-148.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 11.0/20120310193349])
  966. # [23:44] * Joins: danbri_ (~danbri@cable-146-255-148-108.dynamic.telemach.ba)
  967. # [23:44] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-148-108.dynamic.telemach.ba) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  968. # [23:46] * ojan_away is now known as ojan
  969. # [23:51] <Hixie> anyone know why zcorpan wanted this? http://www.w3.org/mid/op.v7igmeskidj3kv@simon-pieterss-macbook.local
  970. # [23:52] <annevk> is that how some Date thing serializes maybe?
  971. # [23:53] <Hixie> oh, no, i see
  972. # [23:53] <Hixie> he wants it to say whether it should be 002 or 02 or 0002 etc
  973. # [23:54] * Joins: nesta_ (~nesta_@213.Red-83-61-76.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net)
  974. # [23:57] * Quits: danbri_ (~danbri@cable-146-255-148-108.dynamic.telemach.ba) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  975. # [23:57] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-148-108.dynamic.telemach.ba)
  976. # [23:59] * Joins: superSlumbo (~stefan@c-24-20-3-14.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
  977. # Session Close: Wed Apr 25 00:00:00 2012

The end :)