/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-04-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 27 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <smaug____> well, mediastreams will be there too
  4. # [00:00] <smaug____> web audio has many issues still
  5. # [00:01] <smaug____> but the wg lists both web audio and media stream processing API as its proposals
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  7. # [00:01] <smaug____> Hixie: I believe roc is about the land the implementation for Mediastream processing API real soon
  8. # [00:01] <Hixie> smaug____: are they mutually exclusive or are they complementary?
  9. # [00:02] <roc> Web Audio has the Webkit browsers behind it
  10. # [00:02] * eric_carlson is now known as eric|afk
  11. # [00:02] <smaug____> my assumption has been that they will be merged somehow
  12. # [00:02] <smaug____> and drop some features from Web Audio
  13. # [00:03] <Hixie> so mutually exclusive?
  14. # [00:03] <Hixie> or rather, overlapping?
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  16. # [00:03] <smaug____> I'd say overlapping
  17. # [00:03] <Hixie> k
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  19. # [00:03] <smaug____> at least partially
  20. # [00:04] <roc> Web Audio may have too much momentum behind it to change or drop any of it
  21. # [00:05] <smaug____> it isn't even spec'ed properly yet
  22. # [00:05] <smaug____> so sure there can be changes
  23. # [00:05] <roc> changes that don't break compatibility, sure
  24. # [00:05] <Hixie> is there momentum beyond a single implementation?
  25. # [00:05] <roc> no
  26. # [00:06] <Hixie> then it doesn't have too much momentum
  27. # [00:06] * miketaylr is now known as miketaylrawaylol
  28. # [00:06] <roc> Google's evangelized it and developers are using it
  29. # [00:06] <smaug____> for Chrome-only games, I assume
  30. # [00:07] <Hixie> it might have too much momentum for the exact names used in webkit's implementation to have incompatible definitions, but one can always change the names
  31. # [00:07] <roc> currently, although Safari will support it too
  32. # [00:08] <smaug____> but since web audio API is currently still mainthread only API, it really doesn't work well enough
  33. # [00:08] <roc> Google's evangelists are out there telling everyone this is how Web audio is going to be done (the "Web Audio" name was brilliant), and people are building based on that assumption
  34. # [00:08] <roc> I can't fight that
  35. # [00:09] <Hixie> roc: sure you can. if it's not implemented, it doesn't matter what people said.
  36. # [00:09] <Hixie> shipped code wins every time
  37. # [00:09] <smaug____> well, I don't still buy it. Google has tried similar thing for example with speech stuff, and it didn't work.
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  39. # [00:09] <Hixie> exactly
  40. # [00:09] <roc> but devs are actually using Web Audio
  41. # [00:10] <Hixie> so?
  42. # [00:10] <roc> so I don't think telling them "no, use this instead for Firefox" is going to get a good reception
  43. # [00:11] <jernoble> smaug____: "mainthread only API"? what do you mean?
  44. # [00:11] <Hixie> so don't say that. say "no, use this instead for all browsers, it's what will be implemented by everyone"
  45. # [00:11] <roc> Web Audio isn't terribly bad, or obnoxious
  46. # [00:11] <Hixie> and make sure that there is in fact a single api used by everyone
  47. # [00:12] <zewt> jernoble: realtime audio (or semi-realtime, eg. games) needs to be low-latency; that wants to be able to feed audio in a thread to avoid underruns
  48. # [00:12] <roc> Hixie: I can't say that while no-one but Mozilla (and maybe Opera) have agreed to implement it
  49. # [00:12] <smaug____> jernoble: Mediastream processing API is heavily multithreaded (using workers), Web Audio API isn't
  50. # [00:12] <Hixie> roc: so change it so that others will agree to implement it
  51. # [00:12] <jernoble> zewt: yes, and the audio processing runs off the main thread, specifically to meet those goals.
  52. # [00:12] <roc> smaug____, zewt: Web Audio has off-main-thread builtin processing nodes
  53. # [00:12] <smaug____> roc: not for JS stuff
  54. # [00:12] <jernoble> zewt: it's only the setup of the scene graph that occurs on the main thred.
  55. # [00:13] <jernoble> *thread
  56. # [00:13] <roc> smaug____, zewt: and Chris Rogers agrees that Workers should be added to Web AUdio somehow
  57. # [00:13] <roc> Hixie: Chris Rogers and others don't object to MediaStream Processing per se, their argument is that Web Audio is here, people are using it, and it's good enough so why do anything else
  58. # [00:13] <smaug____> sure, I know what. But it isn't there. I assume if you add support for multithreading, web audio api will look a lot more like mediastream processing
  59. # [00:13] <zewt> <smaug____> but since web audio API is currently still mainthread only API, it really doesn't work well enough
  60. # [00:14] <smaug____> which is why I think the APIs will merge somehow
  61. # [00:14] <Hixie> roc: "why do anything else" would be "because it's not getting implemented in more than webkit"
  62. # [00:15] <roc> heh
  63. # [00:15] <roc> well
  64. # [00:15] <roc> that argument hasn't worked so far :-)
  65. # [00:16] <Hixie> sounds like the group is dysfunctional if there are multiple specs, implementations won't agree to implement the same one, and nobody is willing to compromise to come up with a common spec
  66. # [00:16] <roc> so
  67. # [00:16] <roc> there are two main differences between the current specs
  68. # [00:16] <roc> one is that Web Audio defines a big set of builtin-nodes and expects you to use them because their JS support is weak
  69. # [00:17] <roc> while MSP focuses on JS workers and doesn't define a big set of built-in nodes
  70. # [00:17] <roc> that's easy to compromise on --- just merge. I've already agreed to do that.
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  72. # [00:18] <roc> the other big difference is that Web Audio is based on an AudioNode graph and MSP is based on MediaStreams
  73. # [00:18] <roc> there you can't really compromise
  74. # [00:18] <roc> that's the problem
  75. # [00:19] <smaug____> (one problem is that the builtin-nodes in Web Audio API really aren't spec'ed well enough. They are in the level "this node modifies data somehow")
  76. # [00:20] <roc> that can be fixed, and Chris Rogers has agreed that it should be fixed
  77. # [00:20] <smaug____> sure
  78. # [00:21] <smaug____> just hasn't happened yet, and someone from Google almost seriously suggested that webkit's implementation should be the reference implementation for nodes
  79. # [00:22] <roc> several people have suggested that, but just because they don't understand Web standards. Chris doesn't hold to that.
  80. # [00:22] <roc> What I really want is for Microsoft to take a position.
  81. # [00:22] <roc> But for some reason they won't.
  82. # [00:22] <smaug____> I just think we can't really live without something like MSP
  83. # [00:23] <Hixie> that would probably break the deadlock, it's true
  84. # [00:23] <smaug____> but we can live without web audio api
  85. # [00:23] <Hixie> maybe they're just stuck, confused about whether to screw over their arch enemies apple and google, or their arch enemies opera and mozilla ;-)
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  87. # [00:26] <roc> I think it's pretty obvious who their real arch-enemies are :-)
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  90. # [00:36] <Hixie> themselves? :-)
  91. # [00:41] <cbright6062> hmmmmm
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  115. # [02:25] <othermaciej> I think the success of Web Audio is because it's good at serving important use cases
  116. # [02:25] <othermaciej> not just because of evangelism
  117. # [02:26] <othermaciej> and Apple is in favor mainly because it's viable on mobile devices, unlike the "do all your audio processing in JS" approach
  118. # [02:26] <othermaciej> not just because our arch-nemesis / co-engine-developer Google proposed it
  119. # [02:27] <jamesr_> roc, is the difficulty with WebAudio's node-based approach that it's hard to write all of the nodes in C++?
  120. # [02:27] <jamesr_> and we really need a second implementation of that bit?
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  122. # [02:27] <TabAtkins_> I think it's that it's hard to write all of the nodes interoperably, given the current spec state.
  123. # [02:28] <roc> that is an issue, but it's not a big issue
  124. # [02:28] <roc> it's certainly solvable
  125. # [02:28] <othermaciej> all they do is math, so it should be straightforward to spec with precision, given enough effort
  126. # [02:29] <roc> like I said above, I don't think whether or not we should have a big library of built-in nodes is the sticking point
  127. # [02:29] <jamesr_> so it's about the glue?
  128. # [02:29] <othermaciej> WebKit's WebAudio node implementations are 4958 lines of C++ and IDL code
  129. # [02:29] <othermaciej> (including comments)
  130. # [02:29] <jamesr_> othermaciej, not the easiest 5k lines to write
  131. # [02:29] <roc> I'm more concerned about whether it
  132. # [02:29] <jamesr_> but it's no sqlite beast, either
  133. # [02:30] <roc> 's a good idea to have 2 (or more) abstractions for real-time media processing, or just one
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  135. # [02:30] <othermaciej> it would be nice for MediaStream and Web Audio's data processing to be aligned
  136. # [02:30] <othermaciej> (and Media Source)
  137. # [02:31] <othermaciej> but MediaStream as designed doesn't really allow significant processing of media data, beyond letting you send it from point A to point B
  138. # [02:31] <othermaciej> so it's not like there's two rich interfaces to reconcile
  139. # [02:31] <roc> that's why I've proposed MediaStreams Processing
  140. # [02:31] <roc> (and implemented most of it)
  141. # [02:32] <othermaciej> MediaStreams Processing is the thing that causes there to be "2 (or more) abstractions for real-time media processing"
  142. # [02:32] <roc> no
  143. # [02:32] <othermaciej> I am not sure I understand your concern then
  144. # [02:33] <othermaciej> (or more specifically, what specifically you meant by "2 (or more) abstractions for real-time media processing")
  145. # [02:35] <roc> I shouldn't have said "processing" there
  146. # [02:36] <roc> MediaStreams and AudioNodes are two different abstractions for real-time media streams
  147. # [02:36] <othermaciej> oh, in that case I would agree that there should not be, presuming there's a reasonable way to have a unified abstraction
  148. # [02:37] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  149. # [02:37] <roc> and I'm assuming that in the future we'll want to process video streams, and other kinds of data such as Kinect-style depth buffers
  150. # [02:38] <zewt> (that's the sort of thing languages like GLSL are good for...)
  151. # [02:38] <othermaciej> that's possible, but audio processing has some specialized requirements
  152. # [02:38] <roc> I think, of course, that MediaStreams Processing is a reasonable way to have a unified abstraction
  153. # [02:38] <othermaciej> you need to make sure that things aren't so abstracted that it gets in the way of doing the required audio-specific things
  154. # [02:39] <roc> yes, and I think I've demonstrated that. At least, that doesn't seem to be the issue right now.
  155. # [02:41] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: about the group description, lemme know what you want and I will change it right now
  156. # [02:41] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: s/living standard/living specification/
  157. # [02:41] <MikeSmith> OK, gimme a minute
  158. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> about the Contact Group link, I have yet to find where that is stored in the DB, so not sure if I can change it. I think unfortunately it might be generated/constructed just by concatenating public- with the CG name ("whatwg"). I will find out tomorrow
  159. # [02:44] <othermaciej> roc: with just your API as proposed, I don't think it would be feasible to run equivalents of the various Web Audio demos on an iPad
  160. # [02:45] <othermaciej> roc: I think your spec takes the position that processing audio with JS in a Worker is the core feature, and specialized native code audio processing modules are fluff, whereas I would take the converse view
  161. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> othermaciej, OK, description now changed at least
  162. # [02:45] <roc> that may well be true, so I agree we should have a library of native effects
  163. # [02:45] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: thanks!
  164. # [02:46] <othermaciej> roc: of course, I say that based on just a quick read-through and from the position of not being an expert on media or audio
  165. # [02:46] <othermaciej> so apply liberal dose of salt
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  168. # [02:48] <roc> I don't think I have ever described "native code audio processing" as "fluff" or anything like that. I have some concerns about trying to support every effect anyone would ever want as a built-in primitive, so I have always felt strongly that first-class JS support is important, and because that's strictly more demanding on the infrastructure than native effects, that's what I focused on
  169. # [02:49] <othermaciej> you can do a lot of useful audio effects efficiently through composition of suitable parameterized primitives
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  172. # [02:49] <othermaciej> a lot of pro audio software adopts that model
  173. # [02:50] <roc> yes. (you may lose your efficiency advantage over doing it directly in JS though)
  174. # [02:50] <othermaciej> as do a lot of platform-native audio apis
  175. # [02:51] <roc> anyway, this is not the contentious part. This is easy to compromise on. We can all agree (and I think do all agree) that there should be first-class JS support and a native effects library that's as big as it needs to be. And even if it gets bigger than it needs to be, that's not a big deal.
  176. # [02:51] <othermaciej> so what is the contentious part, if any?
  177. # [02:51] <roc> Whether to build on MediaStreams or have a separate AudioNode/AudioContext abstraction
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  180. # [02:52] <othermaciej> an AudioNode doesn't really represent the same thing as a stream
  181. # [02:52] <othermaciej> it's a unit with inputs and outputs
  182. # [02:52] <roc> and related to that, some questions exactly what semantics of the streams should be supported.
  183. # [02:53] <othermaciej> it might be logical to be able to get a MediaStream into or out of one
  184. # [02:53] <roc> a ProcessedMediaStream is a MediaStream with inputs
  185. # [02:53] <othermaciej> that seems like it would be simple
  186. # [02:53] <othermaciej> is it actually practically useful to represent an effects unit as a stream?
  187. # [02:54] <othermaciej> certainly in signal processing terms a signal and a system are not the same thing (though in some cases a system can be sufficiently defined by its impulse response)
  188. # [02:55] <roc> A specific AudioNode instance produces a stream of audio output
  189. # [02:55] <othermaciej> when I plug my guitar into a distortion pedal and the pedal into the amp, the pedal effects unit takes a signal in and sends a signal out, but it is not itself a signal
  190. # [02:56] * miketaylr is now known as miketaylrawaylol
  191. # [02:56] <othermaciej> it certainly makes sense to me that an AudioNode should be able to take input as a MediaStream and send output as a MediaStream
  192. # [02:56] <othermaciej> I don't understand why it would *be* a MediaStream
  193. # [02:56] <roc> I don't see any real utility in distinguishing an AudioNode from its output, as separate objects
  194. # [02:56] <roc> in the graph
  195. # [02:57] <othermaciej> it may be that connecting them directly can be more efficient than producing output in a form consumable by non-AudioNodes
  196. # [02:57] <othermaciej> (which a MediaStream would have to be, in the general case)
  197. # [02:58] <othermaciej> and also it's a design that matches the domain
  198. # [02:58] <roc> I don't see any implementation issues there
  199. # [02:59] <othermaciej> in that a signal and a signal processor are distinct entities
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  201. # [02:59] <othermaciej> I don't see how making a single object represent a signal processor and its output stream is clarifying
  202. # [03:00] <othermaciej> and if you don't make that assumption, it seems a lot easier to get Web Audio and Media Streams to play nice
  203. # [03:01] <othermaciej> all that being said, I do hope these APIs get aligned nicely and I'm not much of a domain expert, so I should probably leave the architecture here to the more informed
  204. # [03:02] <zewt> the audio APIs i've implemented simply have output nodes; some of them happen to input from other nodes, some of them input from audio files, etc. but they're all the same type of object
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  206. # [03:04] <roc> I don't feel that having separate objects for signal processors and output streams is clarifying, and it's definitely more objects than are needed, which at least means overhead.
  207. # [03:05] <othermaciej> perhaps if changing the names and APIs of the various AudioNode classes is no longer feasible, then AudioNode could subclass MediaStream
  208. # [03:05] <othermaciej> (assuming that was even a good idea; don't really know the intersection between the APIs)
  209. # [03:06] <othermaciej> in general it only means one more object (the final output), assuming signal processors can be chained without reifying the signals between them
  210. # [03:10] <roc> there's also a semantic issue which is that we will probably need to add the ability to pause MediaStreams (MSP does, and there are use-cases outside of MSP too, like live but non-interactive peer-to-peer transmission), and Chris doesn't want to add that to AudioNodes
  211. # [03:12] <roc> zewt: yeah, Web Audio has AudioNodes presenting the playback of resources too, but you can see those as signal processors if you squint hard enough
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  283. # [07:33] <annevk> Velmont: hey, where are you staying next week?
  284. # [07:33] <annevk> I realized I only have plane ticket...
  285. # [07:35] <annevk> MikeSmith: Bugzilla is offline again...
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  294. # [07:54] <zcorpan> not specifying the list of tag names seems like a good way to introduce differences between impls
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  297. # [08:03] <zcorpan> zewt: having things spoken by different persons at different times in the same cue is pretty common i think
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  340. # [10:53] <jgraham> Read spec. Think "this would be much clearer if it was written as X". Reread spec. Realise it is written as X. Sigh.
  341. # [10:55] <Ms2ger> Canvas in SVG, really?
  342. # [10:58] <jgraham> Then you can implement SVG in canvas.
  343. # [10:58] <jgraham> Then you have a meme.
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  346. # [11:04] * jgraham wonders how to test things that are supposed to be racy
  347. # [11:05] <jgraham> One option is to allow multiple pass conditions
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  350. # [11:05] <jgraham> And then have special tests where the results of the race are well controlled
  351. # [11:05] * Parts: mrk25_ (~mrk25_@ip-223-8.sn1.eutelia.it)
  352. # [11:06] <jgraham> So, I guess it would be useful if testharness.js supported multiple pass conditions
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  358. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> annevk: looks like they re-fixed the db problem and bugzilla is back up
  359. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> db is getting corrupted for some reason
  360. # [11:18] <annevk> thanks
  361. # [11:18] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Maybe if you paid it better, it wouldn't be so open to bribery
  362. # [11:18] <jgraham> Ahem
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  365. # [11:19] <jgraham> Anyway what I actually wanted to say was
  366. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> heh
  367. # [11:19] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Any thoughts on multiple pass condition syntax
  368. # [11:20] <jgraham> I can think of assert_equals(foo, any(a, b, c))
  369. # [11:20] <Ms2ger> How assert_in(foo, [a, b, c])?
  370. # [11:20] <Ms2ger> s//about/
  371. # [11:20] <jgraham> Or assert_any(assert_equals, foo, a, b, c)
  372. # [11:20] <Ms2ger> Hmm
  373. # [11:21] <jgraham> Ms2ger: assert_in doesn't really work for non-assert_equals cases
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  375. # [11:22] <Ms2ger> assert_any(assert_equals, foo, [a, b, c])?
  376. # [11:22] <jgraham> Yeah, I think that's better
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  378. # [11:25] <annevk> MikeSmith: you staying in a hotel next week?
  379. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> yeah
  380. # [11:25] <annevk> pointer?
  381. # [11:25] <Ms2ger> Or just on the street?
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  383. # [11:27] <jgraham> Set up a tent and call it "Occupy Microsoft"
  384. # [11:28] <annevk> I considered hiding in their bathroom and then finding a couch once everyone left the building, but I'm sure they have some kind of annoying security thing that'd prevent that
  385. # [11:29] * Joins: [[zzz]] (~q@125.25.237.39)
  386. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> Best Western Plus Mountain View Inn
  387. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> http://www.bestwesternmountainviewinn.com/
  388. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> book it through the GOogle Maps thing and it will be cheaper
  389. # [11:31] * Quits: dirkpennings (~dirkpenni@90-145-26-140.bbserv.nl)
  390. # [11:31] <annevk> thanks
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  393. # [11:32] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Although that syntax doesn't really work if the assert isn't of the form assert_foo(actual, expected)
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  396. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> http://maps.google.com/maps/place?q=Best+Western+Plus+Mountain+View+Inn&hl=en&cid=8890994076595056279
  397. # [11:33] <annevk> btw, I'm in SFO 11:50AM coming Sunday
  398. # [11:33] <annevk> if anyone else is there...
  399. # [11:33] <jgraham> assert_approx_equals seems like a special case that could have a use there
  400. # [11:34] <jgraham> assert_any(assert_func, [[arg11, arg12], [arg21, arg22]], description) is getting kind of ugly
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  402. # [11:35] <jgraham> especially with assert_array_equals
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  404. # [11:35] <jgraham> assert_any(assert_array_equals, actual, [[[1,2,3]], [[4,5,6]]])
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  410. # [11:42] <Ms2ger> jgraham, assert_any(assert_approx_equals, actual, [1, 2, 3], 0.1)?
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  412. # [11:44] <jgraham> Ms2ger: With the possibility to s/0.1/[0.1, 0.1, 0.2]/ ?
  413. # [11:44] <Ms2ger> When I see the use case :)
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  415. # [11:46] <jgraham> Well I don't have one :) The only problem with not allowing that at first would be an assertion with a third argument that is an array
  416. # [11:47] <jgraham> Also this whole idea doesn't work for assert_throws, but I think I don't want it to
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  418. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> annevk: me an plh not arriving til Monday evening
  419. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> annevk: will you have a Notifications meeting on Monday?
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  431. # [12:06] <annevk> MikeSmith: could not get a place there
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  433. # [12:06] <annevk> staying other side of town now
  434. # [12:06] <annevk> crappy hotel situation is crappy
  435. # [12:06] <MikeSmith> annevk: you got a car?
  436. # [12:07] <annevk> mine should be walking distance
  437. # [12:07] <annevk> "Quality Inn & Suites-Mountain View"
  438. # [12:07] <annevk> but you never know with all the highways
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  443. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah
  444. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> it can look like a few hundred meters on map but take you 40 minutes to walk it because of that
  445. # [12:14] <annevk> a review for a hotel next door said it was doable; guess I'll find out or otherwise find out if they have some kind of shuttle or just take a taxi each day ...
  446. # [12:15] <annevk> or arrange someone to pick me up
  447. # [12:15] <annevk> which reminds me, I have to get to Cupertino on Monday...
  448. # [12:15] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5d84fe92.pool.mediaWays.net)
  449. # [12:15] <annevk> MikeSmith: are you going to that?
  450. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> to what?
  451. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> Notifications meeting?
  452. # [12:16] <annevk> yeah
  453. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> nope
  454. # [12:16] <annevk> k
  455. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> won't get there in time
  456. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> I think we land at 19:30 or something
  457. # [12:16] <annevk> oh that's late
  458. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> other days, plh can probably give you a ride if you want to instead of walking
  459. # [12:17] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  460. # [12:20] <annevk> ooh, my hotel is next to Nasa
  461. # [12:21] <Ms2ger> <glazou> there is no css wg
  462. # [12:21] <Ms2ger> [Actual quote]
  463. # [12:23] <annevk> but there is a CSS WG?
  464. # [12:23] <annevk> more context?
  465. # [12:23] <Ms2ger> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/developers/20120427#l-1090
  466. # [12:25] <jgraham> Nothing like a little light blame deflecting to start the day
  467. # [12:25] <annevk> karlcow often brings up the same point about the W3C
  468. # [12:26] <annevk> in both cases though, browser vendors did put their concerns and problems forward, they were just dismissed
  469. # [12:26] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  470. # [12:27] <annevk> and if you dismiss a problem it'll be solved elsewhere
  471. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> every groups has leaders
  472. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> the people who are responsible for addressing the problems
  473. # [12:27] <annevk> (it'll also be solved elsewhere if you acknowledge the problem and take no appropriate action)
  474. # [12:28] <karlcow> hmm too sleepy still to enter into the rationales ☺ about social groups. just woke up
  475. # [12:28] <annevk> we need a bot that gives people coffee
  476. # [12:28] <annevk> or tea, I don't drink coffee
  477. # [12:28] * Ms2ger passes karlcow the coffee
  478. # [12:28] * Ms2ger passes annevk a beer
  479. # [12:29] <jgraham> WGs can be echo chambers. This affects the perception of what the most critical problems are
  480. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> cough TC39 cough
  481. # [12:30] <annevk> jgraham: heh yeah, CSS focused on print/text for years when everyone was having layout problems
  482. # [12:31] <jgraham> Aslo CSS WG hasn't really considered shipping to be a critical problem
  483. # [12:31] * Quits: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@host217-37-109-18.in-addr.btopenworld.com) (Quit: The computer fell asleep)
  484. # [12:31] <annevk> in a way, but in a way shipping and process dominates every discussion
  485. # [12:31] * Joins: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@host217-37-109-18.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  486. # [12:32] <jgraham> Right, but not, afaict, in a "how can we make this much much faster?" way
  487. # [12:33] <jgraham> Perhaps I am wrong, but it feels like the tendency is to go in the "how can we add process and delay shipping" way
  488. # [12:33] <jgraham> (I suppose this is changing now)
  489. # [12:34] <annevk> dunno if it's changing, everything is now split over several drafts instead
  490. # [12:35] <annevk> if a feature has some kind of issue it's moved to another draft, but I've no idea who makes sure the whole thing still makes sense
  491. # [12:35] * Joins: tndrH (~Rob@cpc16-seac19-2-0-cust234.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  492. # [12:35] <annevk> probably nobody
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  500. # [12:52] <annevk> MikeSmith: btw, ij said you might know about archiving whatwg@whatwg.org on lists.w3.org
  501. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> yeah, I know something
  502. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> I need to re-start that discussion with others
  503. # [12:53] <annevk> kk
  504. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> it seems like everything thinks it's a good idea, I just need to follow up on it
  505. # [12:55] <zcorpan> you discuss it with things?
  506. # [12:55] <zcorpan> i guess that's a good way to do it
  507. # [12:55] <jgraham> First you ask your cat, then you ask your beer
  508. # [12:56] <jgraham> Then that is everything
  509. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> I meant we need to everythink things
  510. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> that's my new motto
  511. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> as T.S. Eliot used it in the last line of The Wasteland
  512. # [12:58] <karlcow> "everythink things"
  513. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> "Everythanks. Everythanks. Peace out."
  514. # [13:06] <jgraham> Hmm, so if I have <script src="data:text/html,document.write('foo')"></script>[rest of file] pretending that data URLs take finite time to fetch, is it now racy-by-default if foo is ever inserted (and where)?
  515. # [13:08] <jgraham> Uh, that script should be inserted by a DOM method
  516. # [13:08] <jgraham> If it's parser-insered, it's not racy
  517. # [13:09] <hasather> jgraham: is that CORE-32270?
  518. # [13:10] <jgraham> hasather: That's not the case I had in mind
  519. # [13:10] <hasather> jgraham: ok
  520. # [13:10] <jgraham> I am looking at some of hallvord's script scheduling tests and reworking them to be spec compliant
  521. # [13:11] <jgraham> And eventually adding all the new tests needed to cover all the extra complexity people wanted here
  522. # [13:11] <zcorpan> data:text/html,<script>var s=document.createElement('script');s.src="data:text/html,document.write('foo')"; document.head.appendChild(s);</script>[rest of file]
  523. # [13:11] <zcorpan> ?
  524. # [13:11] <jgraham> Yes
  525. # [13:12] <zcorpan> i get foo in opera but not in gecko or chrome
  526. # [13:12] <jgraham> Where we engage in the fiction that the data URL is actually the equivalent HTTP url
  527. # [13:13] <jgraham> Right
  528. # [13:13] <jgraham> Opera isn't very spec-compliant here
  529. # [13:13] <jgraham> Per-spec, I think that foo is written if the insertion point is defined at the time that the script is run
  530. # [13:13] <zcorpan> i guess you need to write a test that delays the external script and another that delays the outer document
  531. # [13:13] <jgraham> Indeed
  532. # [13:14] <zcorpan> and the script runs when it is fetched without blocking the parser
  533. # [13:15] <zcorpan> does it delay the load event?
  534. # [13:15] <jgraham> Yes, but the insertion point is already undefined by then
  535. # [13:15] <zcorpan> ah
  536. # [13:15] <jgraham> See "The End"
  537. # [13:15] <jgraham> (my favourite spec subsection)
  538. # [13:16] <jgraham> I was kind of hoping I could just fix up the simple case to have multiple possible pass conditions and then come back and write all the delayed-resource tests at the end
  539. # [13:16] <jgraham> I guess I still can
  540. # [13:17] <zcorpan> i think i'd skip writing the "simple" test with multiple pass conditions
  541. # [13:17] <zcorpan> delaying resources is easy enough :)
  542. # [13:17] <jgraham> Well that test already exists, it justhas the wrong pass condition(s)
  543. # [13:18] <zcorpan> ah
  544. # [13:18] <zcorpan> carry on :)
  545. # [13:18] <jgraham> And keep calm?
  546. # [13:19] <zcorpan> depends on the circumstances
  547. # [13:23] <Velmont> 07:26 < annevk> Velmont: hey, where are you staying next week?
  548. # [13:23] <Velmont> Uhh. Dunno! Actually. Should fix that.
  549. # [13:31] <annevk> Velmont: I'm staying at "Quality Inn & Suites-Mountain View" prolly not so much quality given it's in the name
  550. # [13:31] * Druide__ is now known as Druide_
  551. # [13:33] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Before you start mass-buying TVs to test big-endian WebGL, none of them do, contrary to what I said before.
  552. # [13:33] * Joins: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-179-89.adsl.inetia.pl)
  553. # [13:35] <Ms2ger> Hmm
  554. # [13:35] <Velmont> annevk: OK. Goodie. I'll look at it then :P I did not see it because my search was for cheapest.
  555. # [13:35] * Ms2ger dumps a couple of tvs on gsnedders's doorstep
  556. # [13:36] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Not sure I have space in my flat :P
  557. # [13:36] <zcorpan> gsnedders: hang it in the ceiling
  558. # [13:37] <Ms2ger> *In* the ceiling?
  559. # [13:37] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@209-6-123-224.c3-0.arl-ubr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  560. # [13:37] <Ms2ger> For ceiling cat?
  561. # [13:37] <zcorpan> yeah
  562. # [13:38] * zcorpan should work a bit on his swenglish
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  570. # [13:51] <gsnedders> It's so sad when major sites refuse to support non-WebKit mobile browsers :(
  571. # [13:52] <smaug____> it is
  572. # [13:53] <smaug____> gsnedders: btw, Opera doesn't have a browser for N9 ?
  573. # [13:53] * smaug____ would like to replace the crappy default browser
  574. # [13:54] <jgraham> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/a-treat-for-nokia-n9-users-opera-mobile-labs-11-5/
  575. # [13:54] <jgraham> It's not a real release
  576. # [13:54] <jgraham> But it exists
  577. # [13:54] <smaug____> oh,
  578. # [13:55] * smaug____ tries
  579. # [13:58] <Velmont> smaug____: It's not A+...
  580. # [13:58] <Velmont> Sadly. -- We should get the native keyboard working.
  581. # [13:59] <Velmont> But other than that it works very well, and I use it on my N9.
  582. # [14:00] <smaug____> crashed :(
  583. # [14:00] <smaug____> but the UI looks better than in the default
  584. # [14:00] <smaug____> panning is a bit slow
  585. # [14:00] <Velmont> Oh, I never got it to crash.
  586. # [14:01] <smaug____> but I'll play around with it
  587. # [14:01] <smaug____> jgraham: thanks
  588. # [14:02] <hsivonen> gsnedders: none of them are big-endian or none support WebGL?
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  590. # [14:03] <gsnedders> hsivonen: None are both big-endian *and* support WebGL
  591. # [14:04] <Philip`> Do they lack WebGL support because they are big-endian, or is that just a coincidence?
  592. # [14:04] <hsivonen> just what I was about to ask
  593. # [14:04] <gsnedders> Philip`: Coincidence.
  594. # [14:05] <hsivonen> were the TVs Opera demoed WebGL on little-endian or did they end up shipping without the demoed feature?
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  596. # [14:07] <gsnedders> hsivonen: LE
  597. # [14:07] <hsivonen> hmm. Opera uses .tar.xz. I haven't seen that before.
  598. # [14:07] <hsivonen> gsnedders: ok
  599. # [14:07] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Almost all the TVs we ship on are LE to start with.
  600. # [14:07] <hsivonen> is this .xz a new thing or have I been living under a rock?
  601. # [14:08] <Philip`> hsivonen: It's not that uncommon - http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/libc/ has some since two years ago
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  603. # [14:09] <Philip`> hsivonen: Modern versions of tar will automatically decompress it (via 'tar xJf foo.tar.xz')
  604. # [14:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok.
  605. # [14:10] <charlvn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xz
  606. # [14:10] <charlvn> i have to be honest, i have never encountered this myself yet either
  607. # [14:10] <Philip`> (It's the same compression algorithm 7-Zip uses)
  608. # [14:10] <Philip`> (or near enough)
  609. # [14:13] <charlvn> ah yes, that makes sense
  610. # [14:13] <charlvn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lempel%E2%80%93Ziv%E2%80%93Markov_chain_algorithm
  611. # [14:13] * Parts: incidence (jussi@unaffiliated/incidence)
  612. # [14:13] <charlvn> .xz uses the LZMA2 algorithm
  613. # [14:14] <charlvn> it offers very good compression - i know it from 7z
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  615. # [14:16] <charlvn> ubuntu offers a package: http://packages.ubuntu.com/precise/xz-utils
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  617. # [14:17] <Philip`> The latest glibc looks like half the size as .xz vs .gz, so it can make a significant difference
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  619. # [14:20] <jgraham> hsivonen: Am I missing something? Why is there only one load event in http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1499 ? (In gecko)
  620. # [14:20] * Joins: othermaciej_ (~mjs@c-24-6-209-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  621. # [14:21] <jgraham> (also in webkit)
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  623. # [14:21] <charlvn> Philip`: that sounds typical from my experience even with the "older" 7z format
  624. # [14:21] <charlvn> it should take at least a third off from text-based documents
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  628. # [14:22] <charlvn> when the content is images, that can be different of course, can't recall testing that
  629. # [14:22] <hsivonen> jgraham: shouldn't you assign a function instead of a string to .onload?
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  631. # [14:23] <hsivonen> jgraham: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1500
  632. # [14:23] <jgraham> Oh that does make a difference
  633. # [14:24] <jgraham> I thought that event handler IDL attributes were magically compiled to a funcction body
  634. # [14:24] <jgraham> If they were a string
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  636. # [14:24] <jgraham> And it seems that in Opera theey are!
  637. # [14:24] <zcorpan> yeah that's just a funny bug in opera
  638. # [14:24] <zcorpan> or feature...
  639. # [14:24] <Ms2ger> A test!
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  642. # [14:26] <jgraham> Well it was enough of a feature that these tests were relying on it
  643. # [14:26] * jgraham removes that
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  646. # [14:30] <Philip`> charlvn: As another data point: Compressing data files for some game (largely DDS textures, and Ogg Vorbis audio, and various XML/JS files) got 346MB .tar.gz vs 281MB .tar.xz
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  659. # [14:31] <Philip`> Since people can afford the CPU cost and memory usage nowadays, and most Linuxes support .xz about as well as .gz, there's not much value in sticking with .gz any more
  660. # [14:31] <jgraham> Is it faster/better than bz2?
  661. # [14:32] <Philip`> Both, usually
  662. # [14:33] <Ms2ger> Hmm, Opera wants to collect statistics about the features I use
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  664. # [14:34] <Philip`> Ms2ger: You're weird and would pollute their data
  665. # [14:34] <Ms2ger> I said no :)
  666. # [14:35] * Philip` wonders if they make any attempts to filter out people who do strange things like run test cases
  667. # [14:37] <Ms2ger> Velmont!
  668. # [14:38] <Ms2ger> How is the assert_throws thing? :)
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  670. # [14:39] <Philip`> jgraham: (Oh, actually it seems at the default settings xz is several times slower to compress than bzip2, though it's also several times faster to decompress, and compresses much better)
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  672. # [14:41] <Philip`> jgraham: (and "xz -0" is both faster than "bzip2 -1" and compressier than the default "bzip2 -9")
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  674. # [14:46] <hsivonen> aargh. where have the gstreamer -dev packages gone in Ubuntu 12.04?
  675. # [14:48] <hsivonen> prefixed with "lib" how logical
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  699. # [15:20] <zewt> zcorpan: if it's at different times, it should be different cues, since the time is different
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  701. # [15:21] <zcorpan> zewt: not if the time between is short enough
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  703. # [15:21] <zcorpan> zewt: spoken words are also at different times, but you don't put every word in different cues :)
  704. # [15:22] <zcorpan> e.g. "let's go!" "OK!" seems reasonable to put the same cue, for instance
  705. # [15:23] <zcorpan> s/, for instance//
  706. # [15:23] <zewt> zcorpan: it's definitely separate in my experience, and I'd put them separately even if they were speaking over each other (why would they not be?)
  707. # [15:24] <zewt> seems strange to merge separate lines of dialogue into a single cue just because they're close in time; seems inconsistent and I can't think of any point
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  709. # [15:26] <zcorpan> i don't see what's strange about it
  710. # [15:26] <zcorpan> in fact webvtt has tags for this use case, if you want to style them differently
  711. # [15:27] <zcorpan> <v Bob>Wassup?
  712. # [15:27] <zcorpan> <v Alice>Nothin'
  713. # [15:27] <zewt> that would be a very poorly-timed caption
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  716. # [15:28] <zcorpan> i see this all the time with swedish subtitles
  717. # [15:28] <zewt> maybe swedish subtitles are bad? heh
  718. # [15:28] <zewt> can't recall ever seeing it myself
  719. # [15:29] <zcorpan> i could run a grep on the srt data to find cues that start with a dash
  720. # [15:29] <zewt> dashes in subtitles? sounding even worse :)
  721. # [15:30] * GlitchMr42 is now known as GlitchMr
  722. # [15:31] <thiessenp> Can anyone point me to a great PDF or offline reference that is not as dense as the ECMAScript documentation? I often use the MDC JS reference but it would be nice to have an offline ref as well.
  723. # [15:31] <zewt> "great PDF" is a peculiar turn of phrase
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  727. # [15:41] <zewt> awesome, now somebody's posting with a name that shows up as "w3c" in gmail
  728. # [15:41] <Ms2ger> Use thunderbird ;)
  729. # [15:41] <zewt> "this pit of snakes sucks, I need to move into a live volcano" D:
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  731. # [15:42] <Ms2ger> :D
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  735. # [15:44] <zewt> cool, somebody else at moz decided to bang his head against the typed array endianness thing
  736. # [15:44] * zewt *peanuts*
  737. # [15:45] <Ms2ger> He expects push-back ;)
  738. # [15:47] <zcorpan> zewt: grep -aPhrB2 "^\s*-\s*[^\s\-]+(\r\n|\r|\n)^\s*-\s*[^\s\-]+" srt-samples > srt-dialogue.txt resulted in a 40MB file (srt-samples is 4GB)
  739. # [15:48] <zcorpan> zewt: http://simon.html5.org/dump/srt-dialogue.txt.zip
  740. # [15:55] <zewt> zcorpan: at a quick look these look like *really* bad subtitles
  741. # [15:57] <zewt> captions should appear timed to the dialogue they correspond to; these will appear earlier, out of sync, breaking the intuitive connection between them
  742. # [15:59] <zewt> afk, off to work
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  759. # [16:40] <karlcow> https://twitter.com/#!/masinter/status/195880829946314753
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  776. # [17:41] <kennyluck> i don't think the prefix problem can be solved anywhere.
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  778. # [17:48] <Hixie> MikeSmith: my plan is to update the "is this html5" section in a few weeks once we have an editor for the rec spec
  779. # [17:48] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i'm leaving it until then to avoid churn
  780. # [17:49] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i've saved your suggestions though
  781. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> thanks man
  782. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> that sounds like a reasonable plan
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  786. # [18:00] <Ms2ger> A rec spec?
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  798. # [18:21] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  803. # [18:24] <Ms2ger> Bonsoir
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  824. # [19:43] <JVoracek>
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  826. # [19:47] <rniwa> AryehGregor: yt?
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  833. # [20:01] <jgraham> A good clue that you don't have a cognet argument: you find yourself making arguments of the form "Y would be bad, therefore X is bad" when there is no explicit or implicit relationship between X and Y
  834. # [20:02] <Ms2ger> Godwin
  835. # [20:02] <jgraham> er cognizant
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  838. # [20:10] <Philip`> jgraham: Surely you meant cogent?
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  841. # [20:12] <Philip`> That seems much closer in Levenshtein distance, and also seems to make more sense in the sentence
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  848. # [20:23] <jgraham> I think I meant "cognizant argument", in the sense of "an argument that you had fully thought through", but though cognet. And then misspelt it.
  849. # [20:24] <jgraham> *thought
  850. # [20:24] <jgraham> Perhaps that is an abuse of the word
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  853. # [20:34] <MikeSmith> cognizant argument rings true to me
  854. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> though it seems far more common for it to be used in the pattern "be cognizant of" <something>
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  856. # [20:38] <Philip`> The arbiter of truth (Google) says "cognizant argument" scores 4,090 on the correctEnglishometer while "cogent argument" scores 265,000, which is a clear victory
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  858. # [20:39] * arunranga mumbles something about cognizant semantics.
  859. # [20:39] * Philip` would tend to interpret cognizant as meaning merely "aware", not "fully thought through"
  860. # [20:41] <Philip`> (and it's weird to say that an argument is aware of anything)
  861. # [20:41] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, I'm thinking "cognizant" isn't the word you want here.
  862. # [20:42] <arunranga> zewt, ping
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  920. # [23:50] <gsnedders> So if I'm right, the easiest way to get big-endian WebGL is run Linux on a PPC Mac using Nouveau 3D?
  921. # Session Close: Sat Apr 28 00:00:00 2012

The end :)