/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-05-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 02 00:00:30 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <annevk> never taken the time to update the markup
  4. # [00:00] <cbright6062> ah, makes sense.
  5. # [00:00] <annevk> well we have one or two times, back then support for new elements was spotty
  6. # [00:00] <cbright6062> ah
  7. # [00:00] <cbright6062> the new markup is a lot more universally supported now.
  8. # [00:01] <cbright6062> it's actually why I had originially formatted my article the way I did.
  9. # [00:01] <cbright6062> Lol
  10. # [00:01] <annevk> yeah, I guess if there's a good reason to update the markup again that aspect would be updated as well
  11. # [00:01] * Quits: krit (~krit@sjfw1-a.adobe.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  12. # [00:02] * gsnedders may have somewhat broken html5lib tip by making it assert where we previously did bogus stuff
  13. # [00:03] <cbright6062> annevk: well, if you ever need a hand with it, I'd be willing to help. (updating code is actually one of my favorite things to do.)
  14. # [00:05] <gsnedders> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=202
  15. # [00:05] <annevk> if you're interested in doing that, sounds fine to me
  16. # [00:05] <annevk> I'd have to figure out how to give you ssh access I guess
  17. # [00:06] <cbright6062> annevk: I'm fully interested and fully willing to help.
  18. # [00:06] <gsnedders> jgraham: see above html5lib bug
  19. # [00:06] <annevk> cbright6062: so I can give you access via the WordPress interface right away
  20. # [00:06] <gsnedders> jgraham: (202)
  21. # [00:06] <annevk> cbright6062: ssh access is something Lachy can maybe arrange
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  23. # [00:07] <cbright6062> annevk: sounds fine to me. Just send me through the proper channels. As for the Wordpress side of things, I'm ready as soon as you are.
  24. # [00:08] <annevk> seems whatwg.org is a little slow, but you'll be an Admin soonish which will allow you to update the pages
  25. # [00:08] <annevk> not quite an ideal interface to edit markup, but it works
  26. # [00:09] <cbright6062> annevk: I actually do it that way on a daily basis. Lol
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  29. # [00:09] <annevk> well hey, if it works for you :)
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  32. # [00:12] <annevk> cbright6062: you should be set now, have fun and don't kill it :)
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  34. # [00:12] <cbright6062> annevk: I noticed. And trust me, I won't kill it.
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  43. # [00:23] <zewt> anyone happen to remember a post with ian's argument against using URLs as identifiers for things that aren't actually resources (eg. XML namespaces)?
  44. # [00:23] <zewt> would like to be lazy and point to it rather than make it from scratch, heh
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  48. # [00:26] <zewt> found one (webintents)
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  50. # [00:27] <gsnedders> You know what would make removing dependencies on implicit unicode/str conversion easier in html5lib? Not have the stdlib rely upon them.
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  484. # [02:41] <cbright6062> annevk: Anything you specifically you would like to see? (such as updating the heading levels to the new standard scheme, etc). I'm just making sure to stay within reason, etc.
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  509. # [04:04] <danbeam> hello! if I believe I've found some overlap in a working draft of CSSOM (compared to DOM2 core) with a notice about how the IDL is re-defining things, how would I go about helping the editor fix this? email them directly? scour IRC channels or lists? http://www.w3.org/TR/cssom-view/#dom-mouseevent-clientx seems to overlap with http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-MouseEvent-clientX (which is already recommended), for more contex
  510. # [04:04] <TabAtkins_> Email www-style@w3.org about it.
  511. # [04:04] <danbeam> TabAtkins_: okie dokie
  512. # [04:05] <TabAtkins_> That said, DOM Level 2 Events isn't used, iirc.
  513. # [04:05] <danbeam> TabAtkins_: it isn't used in what sense? like in the ES4 sense where it was dropped?
  514. # [04:06] <TabAtkins_> It's superseded by better specs.
  515. # [04:06] <danbeam> TabAtkins_: ah, which specs?
  516. # [04:07] * danbeam is inb4 DOM Level 3 events
  517. # [04:07] <zewt> itym dom4
  518. # [04:07] <zewt> (fine, dom3 for the events themselves; but for the event model, dom4)
  519. # [04:08] <danbeam> they have the same conflicts
  520. # [04:08] <TabAtkins_> All right then.
  521. # [04:08] <danbeam> client{X,Y} and screen{X,Y} are supposed to be on MouseEvent interface
  522. # [04:08] <TabAtkins_> I wonder if we have an active editor for CSSOM-View...
  523. # [04:08] <TabAtkins_> I dont' think so.
  524. # [04:09] <danbeam> yeah, was gonna email Anne, but she's may not be as active now?
  525. # [04:09] <TabAtkins_> Anne's a guy.
  526. # [04:09] <danbeam> my bad
  527. # [04:09] <TabAtkins_> And has left the CSSWG, so he's not editting that spec any longer.
  528. # [04:09] <danbeam> yeah
  529. # [04:09] <TabAtkins_> So, yeah, that's an editorless spec.
  530. # [04:10] <othermaciej> I didn't know that Anne left the CSSWG
  531. # [04:10] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, he dropped out a few months ago.
  532. # [04:10] <danbeam> TabAtkins_: I don't supposed there'd be a point in mentioning this in my email to www-style and asking for volunteers?
  533. # [04:10] <danbeam> suppose*
  534. # [04:10] <TabAtkins_> danbeam: Go ahead and mention it. Make sure to put [cssom-view] in the subject line.
  535. # [04:11] <danbeam> TabAtkins_: ok
  536. # [04:11] <TabAtkins_> Just so that future editors of that spec will be able to find it.
  537. # [04:11] <danbeam> ya
  538. # [04:11] * TabAtkins_ wonders what Glenn Adams has been doing lately, since he hasn't seen much activity in the CSSOM spec recently...
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  541. # [04:14] <danbeam> TabAtkins_: so if CSSOM spec declares it added these to the MouseEvent interface, but they were in DOM Level 2 Events (which seems to be circa 2000, 11 years previous), should that part simply be removed from the CSSOM spec, essentially (given than an editor is found)?
  542. # [04:14] <danbeam> s/spec/working draft/ for CSSOM (if that matters?)
  543. # [04:14] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, unless there's a good reason that CSSOM View should update the definitions, the DOM specs shoudl be definitive.
  544. # [04:15] <TabAtkins_> Given that D3E is more recent than View, too.
  545. # [04:15] <danbeam> TabAtkins_: it seems to be the exact same thing
  546. # [04:15] <TabAtkins_> Then yes.
  547. # [04:15] <danbeam> TabAtkins_: so nothing to update
  548. # [04:26] * ojan is now known as ojan_away
  549. # [04:31] * kennyluck wonders why there's only one person from Google that is active on www-style
  550. # [04:31] <danbeam> kennyluck: I'm not particularly active, but I'm about to prove you wrong just the tiniest bit, :P
  551. # [04:32] <danbeam> kennyluck: who were you referring to, Tab?
  552. # [04:32] <kennyluck> The editor that's listed currently.
  553. # [04:34] <danbeam> kennyluck: editor of ... what?
  554. # [04:35] <kennyluck> danbeam, of CSSOM and CSSOM-view.
  555. # [04:35] <danbeam> kennyluck: ah
  556. # [04:35] <kennyluck> oh, sorry I misunderstood you.
  557. # [04:35] <kennyluck> Ye
  558. # [04:35] <kennyluck> Yeah, I was referring to Tab of course.
  559. # [04:36] <danbeam> so you're talking about shans@?
  560. # [04:36] <danbeam> @google.com*
  561. # [04:36] * kennyluck thought that you were asking who Glenn Adams is.
  562. # [04:37] <danbeam> kennyluck: I know exactly who Glenn Adams is -- the smartest person I've [n]ever met with an @cox.com email!
  563. # [04:37] <danbeam> :P
  564. # [04:37] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  565. # [04:39] <danbeam> TabAtkins_: the editor's draft of CSSOM View seems to have new editors, should I be CC'ing/directing my question to shans@google.com / glenn.adams@cox.com as well?
  566. # [04:39] <kennyluck> *shrug*. He only reminds me of a long thread about CORS and @font that I didn't look into.
  567. # [04:40] <danbeam> kennyluck: haha, Access-Control-Allow-Origin: * everywhere! what's the worst that could happen?!
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  583. # [06:18] <annevk> cbright6062: whatever you think is appropriate is fine
  584. # [06:19] <annevk> cbright6062: anything goes as long as it's still readable in recently released browsers
  585. # [06:19] <cbright6062> annevk: Okay. And I will makeshore it is.
  586. # [06:19] <annevk> cbright6062: at least as far as I'm concerned, others in this channel might have different views
  587. # [06:19] <cbright6062> annevk: I mainly asked you since you have the main focus on the blog, from what I've seen :)
  588. # [06:20] <annevk> I think in the end the person doing the work should decide
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  590. # [06:21] <cbright6062> lol
  591. # [06:21] <cbright6062> well, I'm doing the work, but I don't want to upset anyone on here :P
  592. # [06:22] <annevk> don't worry about it
  593. # [06:22] <annevk> ask forgiveness, not permission
  594. # [06:23] <annevk> danbeam: DOM Level whatever does not define hit testing and does not define the coordinates are given in CSS pixels
  595. # [06:24] <annevk> danbeam: having said that, TabAtkins_ is right, I'm no longer an editor or participant in the CSS WG
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  678. # [10:35] <hsivonen_> Poe's Law in action: http://stuffandnonsense.co.uk/blog/about/there_i_said_it
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  681. # [10:37] <jgraham> hsivonen: I don't think there's any suggestion that's a parody?
  682. # [10:39] <jgraham> At least, if that's the intention — and I agree the content could be mistaken for parody — he fails to carry it through into the comments
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  684. # [10:40] <jgraham> Sadly I think there is just a school of thought that browsers are canvases for the artistic vision of web designers rather than tools that are designed to enable their users to access information
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  699. # [11:15] <gsnedders> jgraham: Also, to pedant, transforms are Core Animation.
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  705. # [11:24] <jgraham> gsnedders: Fair point
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  707. # [11:26] <gsnedders> But regardless, an API that exists only on OS X and their Windows-Safari port thing, seemingly.
  708. # [11:26] <jgraham> Yes, my underlying point stands
  709. # [11:27] <gsnedders> (I wonder if Apple will ever release their Obj-C runtime for Windows?)
  710. # [11:28] <gsnedders> (I can't see it happening, but it raises interesting questions about Xcode being ported for the sake of iOS)
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  714. # [11:32] * othermaciej is puzzled by the last few lines of conversation
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  717. # [11:33] <jgraham> othermaciej: The context is that -webkit- CSS properties, in particular transforms, often have different implementations of the gfx part
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  719. # [11:34] <othermaciej> different from what?
  720. # [11:34] <jgraham> In different consumers of webkit
  721. # [11:34] <jgraham> e.g. in Chrome vs Safari
  722. # [11:34] <othermaciej> oh, yeah, different ports have different graphics back ends, not just for transforms for that matter
  723. # [11:35] <jgraham> (sorry that was very badly worded)
  724. # [11:35] <othermaciej> in fact I think transforms don't even use CA if they are 2D and not animated
  725. # [11:35] <gsnedders> othermaciej: The context is in Andy's blog post comments
  726. # [11:35] <othermaciej> (3D transforms and transforms with animation/transition applied do force a CA layer, I think other transforms are just done w/ CoreGraphics)
  727. # [11:36] <jgraham> On the post hsivon linked to ther was lots of wailing about how Opera implementing some properties with the -webkit- prefix was evil because they might not have the same quality as "the" webkit implementation
  728. # [11:36] <jgraham> Although there was never actually a conccrete example of this being a problem
  729. # [11:36] <gsnedders> And may differ subtly from it.
  730. # [11:36] <gsnedders> (which there is some basis for, given gradient syntax fun)
  731. # [11:36] <jgraham> Or indeed any insight into why this isn't a problem for things without prefixes
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  733. # [11:37] <othermaciej> I think people are starting with the conclusion that vendor A supporting vendor B's prefix is bad, and from there looking for arguments that may justify it
  734. # [11:37] <othermaciej> I'm not a huge fan of the situation but I can't blame anyone for doing whatever it takes to make their browser compatible with content
  735. # [11:39] * gsnedders would quite like Apple to drop prefixed versions of properties, as everyone has done (albeit slowly)
  736. # [11:39] <jgraham> Yeah, that would match my impression and explain why so many of the arguments seem so weak
  737. # [11:39] <jgraham> I also don't like the situation fwiw, but I think the problem is with the prefix system
  738. # [11:40] <othermaciej> gsnedders: while that might be a good idea in general, for the most problematic properties, I am not sure that strategy is sane
  739. # [11:40] <gsnedders> Yeah, and something really should've happened when MS were going to implement… -webkit-text-size-adjust, was it, several years back.
  740. # [11:40] <othermaciej> because the specs are not advanced enough for the CSS WG to grant their blessing on shipping the unprefixed version at all, and the prefixed version is so widely used that not having it is major compatibility fail
  741. # [11:40] <jgraham> I don't think it's reasonable, for the same reason I don't think it's reasonable for everyone else not to just implement those properties
  742. # [11:40] <gsnedders> othermaciej: For border-radius it's a change that can happen.
  743. # [11:41] <gsnedders> othermaciej: For gradients, yeah, it's less clear.
  744. # [11:41] <jgraham> I think the CSS WG should confess that it failed and publish a CSS aliases spec
  745. # [11:41] <gsnedders> othermaciej: I believe you're now the only ones to support prefixed border-radius, FWIW
  746. # [11:41] <jgraham> That makes support for the prefixed properties part of the standard
  747. # [11:41] <othermaciej> gsnedders: for border-radius it sounds like it would break a bunch of sites (assuming Opera's reason for implementing -webkit-border-radius is sound)
  748. # [11:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: In a wildcard sense, as glazou was proposing, or just specific ones?
  749. # [11:42] <jgraham> gsnedders: I have no idea what glazou was proposing
  750. # [11:42] <gsnedders> othermaciej: That's a cosmetic issue, unlike the others. And it breaks them no more than Gecko dropping -moz- in 13.
  751. # [11:42] <othermaciej> not sure why Safari should take a compat hit in a case where Opera won't
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  755. # [11:42] <jgraham> But I would suggest specific ones
  756. # [11:42] <gsnedders> jgraham: -*-foo is mapped to foo
  757. # [11:43] <jgraham> gsnedders: That makes no sense to me? What am I missing?
  758. # [11:43] <jgraham> I mean, it seems to have all the properties of not having a prefix system whilst still having a porefix system
  759. # [11:43] <jgraham> *prefix
  760. # [11:43] <gsnedders> othermaciej: I'd like to minimize the list of required synonyms, so we both would take the hit. I'm not gonna propsoe that for things like gradients where things actively become unusable.
  761. # [11:43] <othermaciej> I think prefix may be a failed experiment, at least as used today, but I am not sure how else to make it safe for browsers to experiment with extensions
  762. # [11:44] <jgraham> othermaciej: The only sane thing I have heard is for extensions to be behind runtime flags
  763. # [11:44] <gsnedders> othermaciej: But given Moz has managed to drop prefix for border-radius it suggests it can be done.
  764. # [11:44] <jgraham> Or not in stable versions
  765. # [11:44] <gsnedders> (Ourselves and MS never supported it with prefix)
  766. # [11:45] <jgraham> Of course that isn't going to work well if "experiment" really means "add new features before anyone else and encourage authors to use them"
  767. # [11:45] <gsnedders> FWIW, border-radius would never have been aliased without the far more serious non-cosmetic issues.
  768. # [11:45] <othermaciej> I don't think it would fly to gate availability of features to content authors on the CSS WG's time to get to CR
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  770. # [11:46] <jgraham> I think the CSS WG is part of the problem
  771. # [11:46] <gsnedders> Ideally I'd like to only bake -webkit-linear-gradient (or whatever the name is) into the platform.
  772. # [11:46] <gsnedders> Because it's the only one sites *rely* on.
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  774. # [11:46] <jgraham> So a solution that forces change on them seems like a positive thing
  775. # [11:46] <gsnedders> (Possibly old flexbox, but hopefully what Google uses that on moves away from it)
  776. # [11:46] <othermaciej> I wonder also how early implementation should work for APIs, where the prefix approach is even worse
  777. # [11:47] <jgraham> Because, as you say, people would push like crazy for a spec model that allowed fast iteration if their ability to ship was gated on fast itereation
  778. # [11:47] <gsnedders> annevk was suggesting second impl impls without prefix
  779. # [11:47] <othermaciej> (HTML attributes seem only about as bad as CSS properties when prefixed and no one holds those to a hard CR line)
  780. # [11:47] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Given the CSS WG agreed to drop things earlier than CR hopefully stuff is better in future.
  781. # [11:48] <othermaciej> gsnedders: by "drop things" you mean drop prefixes earlier than CR?
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  783. # [11:48] <gsnedders> othermaciej: yeah
  784. # [11:48] <othermaciej> I thought the CSS WG explicitly refused to do that even in clear-cut cases
  785. # [11:48] <othermaciej> maybe I am not up to speed
  786. # [11:48] <gsnedders> I remember this in some f2f this be resolved.
  787. # [11:50] <othermaciej> I gotta ask hober since he goes to those things
  788. # [11:50] <gsnedders> I should probably just leave the WG given I never do anything anyway
  789. # [11:51] <othermaciej> anyway, CSS WG is touchy about their prefixes but I wonder if we can come up with sane cross-browser best practices for prefixing of APIs and markup attributes (I presume everyone would agree that prefixed elements are a bad idea)
  790. # [11:51] <gsnedders> Like, I every few months read the mailing list. Only otherwise do when people tell me to.
  791. # [11:51] * hendry_ is now known as hendry
  792. # [11:52] <gsnedders> (In an unrelated point, Safari uses NSURL for all HTTPS stuff, so doesn't use NSS, right?)
  793. # [11:53] <othermaciej> I don't know what NSS is
  794. # [11:53] <othermaciej> we use CFNetwork for networking, via NSURL APIs on some OS versions
  795. # [11:53] <othermaciej> under the covers somewhere in there, I think OpenSSL is used for SSL stuff
  796. # [11:53] * Joins: richt (richt@nat/opera/x-ampvsnerlyqaeogx)
  797. # [11:53] <gsnedders> SSL impl, used by Moz/Chrome
  798. # [11:54] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Shows how much time I've spent dealing with OS X that I don't even know that NSURL isn't current any more :)
  799. # [11:54] <othermaciej> NSURL is current, CFNetwork is just the thing underneath it
  800. # [11:54] <gsnedders> "some OS versions"?
  801. # [11:55] <gsnedders> (seeming NSURL predates Safari)
  802. # [11:56] * Joins: nonge_ (~nonge@p5B326443.dip.t-dialin.net)
  803. # [11:57] <tomasf> I think NSURLConnection was introduced along with Safari, actually. Looking at the docs: "Available in Mac OS X v10.2 with Safari 1.0 installed. Available in Mac OS X v10.2.7 and later."
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  805. # [11:58] <othermaciej> on some platforms we just go to CFNetwork directly
  806. # [11:58] <gsnedders> Ah. NSURL itself goes back to 10.0
  807. # [11:58] <gsnedders> (don't believe it goes back to NS, though)
  808. # [11:58] <othermaciej> and yes, NSURLConnection was in fact introduced with Safari, it was first implemented by the Safari team
  809. # [11:58] <tomasf> yeah, NSURLHandle existed before that, and is deprecated since 10.4
  810. # [11:59] <othermaciej> there was an older NSURLHandle which did not cut it for browser use
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  813. # [12:16] * gsnedders guesses he's in for fun working out what has changed in the past three OS X releases when he gets a MBA once they start shipping with Ivy Bridge CPUs
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  815. # [12:21] <gsnedders> (Waiting mainly for the sake of GPU performance, which would probably be good enough to ditch my pretty old MBP)
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  819. # [12:41] <emc> Hello, does anybody know if there is a limit to HTML offline storage? I'm trying to find out if videos can be stored in it? Does anybody know that?
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  826. # [13:00] <hsivonen> jgraham: It's quite possible that it isn't a parody, which is troubling.
  827. # [13:06] <gsnedders> See, I've seen plenty of people call it brilliant parody, but I fail to see any evidence of this.
  828. # [13:07] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I think the best practice for prefixing is not to
  829. # [13:09] <hsivonen> I'm rather surprised that Opera isn't aliasing Animations.
  830. # [13:09] <hsivonen> Once the aliasing code is there, why bother limiting what's aliased?
  831. # [13:10] <gsnedders> hsivonen: The limitation is probably to avoid too much of a backlash.
  832. # [13:10] * gsnedders has no idea
  833. # [13:10] <hsivonen> What I think is sad about Opera's announcement is that some things that will have -webkit-aliases weren't announced to have unprefixed aliases, too
  834. # [13:10] <hsivonen> well, the other sad thing was blaming Web authors
  835. # [13:11] <hsivonen> blaming them isn't that productive and even if true, doesn't help
  836. # [13:11] <hsivonen> blaming the CSS WG might actually end up having helpful effects
  837. # [13:11] <hsivonen> and would be more correct direction of blame anyway
  838. # [13:12] <gsnedders> Except the discussions a couple of months back basically seemed resigned to the fact that non-WebKit browsers will have to support them, so all you can really do is blame prior WG decisions which have since been changed.
  839. # [13:13] <hsivonen> I'm not on the CSS WG, so I don't understand why layout devs act like CSS WG has the power to decide about unprefixing
  840. # [13:13] <gsnedders> The fact that plenty of sites we are just told, "we only support WebKit", is an issue purely down to developers, though.
  841. # [13:13] <hsivonen> seems like Opera aliasing but not also unprefixing is part of acting like it's in the WG's power to decide
  842. # [13:13] <hsivonen> gsnedders: ok
  843. # [13:13] <gsnedders> hsivonen: It's not official WG policy, pretty much, it's just de-facto agreements amongst browser vendors who happen to be in the WG, pretty much.
  844. # [13:14] <gsnedders> (wrt when to unprefix)
  845. # [13:14] <hsivonen> why do people who can land code keep honoring those de facto agreements?
  846. # [13:15] <jgraham> Presumably fear of being called out on not supporting standards properly
  847. # [13:15] <gsnedders> hsivonen: The biggest issue is people doing background-image: -webkit-gradient(bleh); and refusing to put background-color: black; or whatever, which is down to more than just prefix policy.
  848. # [13:15] <hsivonen> gsnedders: interesting
  849. # [13:15] <jgraham> Or a belief that the prefixing is a good idea, in spite of the evidence that it is harmful in these cases
  850. # [13:16] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Leading to white-on-white text, which is the real harm of this situation.
  851. # [13:16] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Everything else is merely cosmetic, and wouldn't have lead us to this.
  852. # [13:16] <jgraham> Well white-on-white is an obvious "you can't use this site" bug
  853. # [13:17] <jgraham> Other things are "your browser sucks more than $webkitBrowser even though it doesn't actually" issues
  854. # [13:17] <jgraham> Which are also harmful
  855. # [13:17] <gsnedders> But not as harmful as to motivate anyone to risk the PR backlash we're currently getting.
  856. # [13:18] <jgraham> I'm not sure I agree
  857. # [13:19] <jgraham> Would have been nice to get Mozilla to make the change at the same time though
  858. # [13:20] <jgraham> Or announce that they will
  859. # [13:20] <gsnedders> Well, I don't think anyone has seriously considered doing it based upon cosmetic reasons
  860. # [13:20] <gsnedders> jgraham: We rather had our hand forced, though, seeming someone posted what was W3C member-confidenial.
  861. # [13:21] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I thought there have been cosmetic reasons under discussion
  862. # [13:21] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I have certainly advocated aliasing to get cosmetic benefits
  863. # [13:22] <gsnedders> IIRC IE Mobile's planned support for -webkit-text-size-adjust was for usability issues
  864. # [13:23] <jgraham> In the long term, cosmetic issues are just as important as "this site is broken" issues
  865. # [13:23] <jgraham> Maybe moreso, because they are harder to evangelise
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  867. # [13:23] <hsivonen> they have mindshare consequences
  868. # [13:23] <gsnedders> I think the hope was to come up with some cross-browser agreement about prefixes for them.
  869. # [13:23] <jgraham> And UX consequences.
  870. # [13:23] <gsnedders> And for the current set of prefixes to go away.
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  892. # [14:34] <MikeSmith> what is an "XML Literal" and what purpose does it serve?
  893. # [14:35] * MikeSmith finds http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/103
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  896. # [14:58] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Its purpose is to confuse people by effectively being just a string that happens to contain markup, but technically being a string which is the UTF-8 decoding of an exclusive Canonical XML document fragment
  897. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> ah
  898. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> so it's the canonical part
  899. # [14:59] <Philip`> Easiest to just think of it as a markup string
  900. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> OK
  901. # [14:59] <Philip`> but with some magic in the RDF parsers so that you can represent that string as actual markup
  902. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> I see
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  904. # [15:00] <jgraham> I find that all sentences with "XML" in become transparent in meaning if you s/XML/pain/g
  905. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> heh
  906. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> so there context of this is, somebody is asking me if there's a "formal notion and/or algorithm that says whether two HTML5 snippets are identical or not"
  907. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> but snippets I guess they mean nodes
  908. # [15:01] <Philip`> (i.e. the magic lets you write <h2 property="dc:title" datatype="rdf:XMLLiteral"><sup>2</sup></h2> which turns into a string with value "<sup xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">2</sup>", I think)
  909. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> Philip`: yeah, that looks like the example that Jeni uses in her blog entry
  910. # [15:02] <Philip`> (per http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#s_xml_literals except the spec forgets the xmlns, I think)
  911. # [15:02] <MikeSmith> OK
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  913. # [15:02] <Philip`> I assume the point is to prevent you having to write escaped markup inside markup, since that's ugly
  914. # [15:02] <MikeSmith> I see
  915. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> so then I guess once you'd done this XMLLiteral thing, there are some cases where you want to be able to compare two XMLLiteral things to determine if they are identical with each other
  916. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> not clear to me what those use cases are
  917. # [15:06] <Philip`> Yeah, they're just strings, so you can do arbitrary stringy things to them, but they happen to have the C14N guarantee that string equality is implied by XPath data model equality (which is quite like DOM equality)
  918. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> OK
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  920. # [15:08] <Philip`> which (I think) in theory means you could extract RDFa from some XHTML document 'A', and then you could fiddle with 'A' to produce 'B' (change all the namespaces, change irrelevant whitespace, etc, e.g. by passing through an XML parser then serialiser) and extract RDFa from 'B', and you'd get exactly the same output
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  926. # [15:13] <davidb> th
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  945. # [15:54] <zcorpan> about webvtt line wrapping, where should the line break go if there are two positions that would produce the same delta?
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  952. # [16:07] <zewt> zcorpan: up to the implementation, i think, the balancing definition isn't precise (and should be loosened a bit more, to explicitly allow approximations)
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  955. # [16:10] <zcorpan> zewt: that's annoying when writing tests :-)
  956. # [16:11] <zewt> tests how? it depends on the implementation's and platform's font rendering anyway
  957. # [16:11] <zcorpan> reftests
  958. # [16:12] <zewt> fwiw i want it to allow approximations so later the balanced wrapping can be made into a generic css white-space mode (where requiring it to be optimal isn't practical)
  959. # [16:12] <zcorpan> yeah i'm fine with allowing that, actually
  960. # [16:12] <zcorpan> it's still annoying
  961. # [16:13] <zewt> you can test extreme cases, which should always give results within certain limits
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  963. # [16:13] <zewt> eg. if "a b c d e f g" wraps to "a b c d e f" and "g" in normal wrapping, it should always wrap closer to "a b c d", "e f g" in balanced
  964. # [16:14] <zewt> that is, in that case the balanced output should always be narrower than the regular output, even if it's an approximation
  965. # [16:15] <zewt> though since the balancing behavior is currently a special case rule instead of a CSS rule, I guess you can't turn it off in order to easily compare
  966. # [16:16] <zcorpan> hmm, also the spec doesn't say where to wrap words that are too long to fit
  967. # [16:16] <zewt> i guess you could check progressively longer cues ("foo", "foo foo", "foo foo foo", ...), and check that the width increases, and then decreases
  968. # [16:17] <zewt> that is, the width of the box will increase as long as it fits on one line, then it'll abruptly drop to about half the width as it inserts a break around the middle, and then start increasing again; that doesn't happen with regular wrapping
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  970. # [16:17] <zewt> not a thorough test by any measure, but should at least tell whether it's happening at all
  971. # [16:19] <zewt> anyhow off to work, later
  972. # [16:19] <zcorpan> see ya
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  989. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> XML Core WG no like BOM
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  996. # [16:46] <zcorpan> ok please tell me the editor's draft which seems to give an error right now doesn't do this silly renaming http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-text/#overflow-wrap0
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  1023. # [17:37] <Ms2ger> zcorpan: no, fantasai hasn't got the memo that silly renaming is a bad idea
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  1046. # [18:25] <annevk> Ms2ger: what do you mean?
  1047. # [18:25] <Ms2ger> Hmm?
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  1049. # [18:25] <annevk> about MIME RFCs
  1050. # [18:26] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@205.248.100.252)
  1051. # [18:26] <annevk> also, do you know any constants for UNINITIALIZED but with a better name?
  1052. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> "multipart/form-data filename encoding: unicode and special characters"
  1053. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> No
  1054. # [18:29] <annevk> oh yeah
  1055. # [18:30] <annevk> I've been saying for ages for we should just define the details of that RFC in HTML directly
  1056. # [18:30] <annevk> rather than this rather obscure reference
  1057. # [18:30] <annevk> Hixie had some reason not to I think, but I'm not sure it's still valid...
  1058. # [18:31] <Ms2ger> annevk, do you know who does what for the eventPhase thing, btw?
  1059. # [18:35] <annevk> Chrome/Safari/IE do 0
  1060. # [18:35] <annevk> Gecko does 2
  1061. # [18:35] <annevk> Opera does 1
  1062. # [18:35] <annevk> per Travis
  1063. # [18:35] <annevk> I have not verified
  1064. # [18:38] <annevk> added a comment
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  1066. # [18:40] <Ms2ger> Oh, you went with Gecko? How strange ;)
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  1070. # [18:47] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
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  1072. # [18:50] <rafaelw_> hsivonen: Can I take a few minutes of your time and chat about DocumentFragment.innerHTML?
  1073. # [18:52] <annevk> Ms2ger: it seemed somewhat sensible given the options
  1074. # [18:52] <annevk> Ms2ger: I didn't want to mint a new constant
  1075. # [18:52] <annevk> Ms2ger: Travis is more open to that
  1076. # [18:52] <Ms2ger> I defer to smaug
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  1081. # [18:55] <annevk> lets see if I can fix it before Travis
  1082. # [18:56] <annevk> prolly not, going to discuss CORS again
  1083. # [18:56] <annevk> soooo boring
  1084. # [18:56] <weinig> annevk: did we skip the DOM3/4 stuff?
  1085. # [18:56] * broquain1 is now known as broquaint
  1086. # [18:56] <Ms2ger> Also, what happened to From-Origin?
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  1088. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: nobody expressed interest in implementing it
  1089. # [19:09] <annevk> weinig: no
  1090. # [19:09] <annevk> Ms2ger: nobody implemented it
  1091. # [19:09] <Ms2ger> Thanks, annevk, MikeSmith :)
  1092. # [19:11] <MikeSmith> mention of resistance from Mark and Tyler
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  1094. # [19:11] <MikeSmith> as if it's new news
  1095. # [19:13] <MikeSmith> yeah, let's document the rationale for the platform in every single spec
  1096. # [19:13] <Ms2ger> \o/
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  1099. # [19:18] <Hixie> annevk: i don't recall if there was any specific reason other than not pissing off people we don't need to piss off more, and avoiding extra work.
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  1105. # [19:23] <dglazkov> rafaelw_: I think hsivonen hates you.
  1106. # [19:24] <dglazkov> rafaelw_: did you accidentally send him spam at some point?
  1107. # [19:24] <dglazkov> :)
  1108. # [19:24] <Ms2ger> Accidentally? :)
  1109. # [19:24] * Ms2ger waves at dglazkov
  1110. # [19:24] <dglazkov> aw crap, forgot to good morning everyone
  1111. # [19:24] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  1112. # [19:24] <dglazkov> :)
  1113. # [19:24] <dglazkov> Ms2ger: are you at the F2F?
  1114. # [19:25] <Ms2ger> Maybe? :)
  1115. # [19:25] <dglazkov> okay peeps, let's smoke Ms2ger out
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  1117. # [19:34] <jgraham> rafaelw_: hsivonen typically is around during office hours in whatever weird timezone Finland's in
  1118. # [19:34] * Joins: rniwa_ (~rniwa@216.239.45.130)
  1119. # [19:34] <jgraham> EEST perhaps
  1120. # [19:35] <Ms2ger> jgraham, yours +1 :)
  1121. # [19:36] <jgraham> Oh look, the little graph at http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html is very informative in this regard
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  1123. # [19:37] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I know what the GMT offset is (except when I don't), I just didn't know what it was called
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  1132. # [19:42] <gavin> hmm, I guess I lost the customizatino I had that included the time zone being used in those stats
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  1134. # [19:43] <rafaelw_> jgraham: Thanks. =-)
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  1144. # [20:18] <annevk> Hixie: hey, when do you have time to address the WebSocket issues?
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  1148. # [20:36] <cheron> Can sb. tell me what is supposed to happen to the private key generated by the keygen element? How can I use it?
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  1153. # [20:52] <Ms2ger> annevk, can you file http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/rev/98a9587a515c on Gecko?
  1154. # [20:52] * miketaylrawaylol is now known as miketaylr
  1155. # [20:54] <annevk> sure
  1156. # [20:54] <Ms2ger> Ta
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  1160. # [20:57] <annevk> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=751286
  1161. # [20:57] <annevk> guess I should file one on WebKit too
  1162. # [21:00] <Ms2ger> Hmm, eventPhase can return 0 in Gecko too
  1163. # [21:01] <annevk> Gecko -> weird
  1164. # [21:01] <Ms2ger> Truth
  1165. # [21:02] <Ms2ger> weinig++
  1166. # [21:02] <Ms2ger> Again
  1167. # [21:02] <annevk> weinig 4 prez
  1168. # [21:03] <weinig> \o/
  1169. # [21:03] <hober> Ms2ger: what did he do now?
  1170. # [21:03] <Ms2ger> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85397
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  1172. # [21:04] <hober> Ms2ger: :)
  1173. # [21:04] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@205.248.100.252) (Quit: weinig)
  1174. # [21:07] <Ms2ger> smaug++
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  1176. # [21:09] <MikeSmith> old checkin comments like http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=61&to=62 are fun
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  1181. # [21:14] <annevk> wait
  1182. # [21:14] <annevk> posts to whatwg@whatwg.org now get on public-whatwg@w3.org ?
  1183. # [21:14] <annevk> hmm
  1184. # [21:15] <jwalden> hahaha
  1185. # [21:16] <Philip`> Obligatory cross-posting?
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  1194. # [21:40] <Hixie> annevk: there are websocket issues?
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  1196. # [21:42] <Hixie> cross-posting to public-whatwg would be massively confusing unless public-whatwg can't be posted to
  1197. # [21:42] <Hixie> i've disabled it until i can speak to whoever set that up
  1198. # [21:43] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I set it up
  1199. # [21:43] <Hixie> MikeSmith: so my concern is that people will post to public-whatwg and not realise they're yelling into a vacuum
  1200. # [21:43] <MikeSmith> yup
  1201. # [21:43] <Hixie> MikeSmith: can be disable posting to that list somehow?
  1202. # [21:43] <MikeSmith> understood
  1203. # [21:43] <MikeSmith> I will try to do that right now
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  1205. # [21:44] <Hixie> (the mirroring is fine by me in principle, though it'd be nice to get historical archives in there too)
  1206. # [21:44] * miketaylrawaylol is now known as miketaylr
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  1208. # [21:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie: systems team is planning to get the historical archives set up
  1209. # [21:46] <Hixie> nice!
  1210. # [21:46] <MikeSmith> will need to get a copy of the archives from you of course
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  1212. # [21:47] <MikeSmith> and I think we can't do it til later this month
  1213. # [21:47] <Hixie> hm
  1214. # [21:47] <Hixie> i dunno that i can get anything you can't get
  1215. # [21:47] <Hixie> but i can look
  1216. # [21:48] <Hixie> looks like the best i can get you is the gzipped archives here: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/
  1217. # [21:48] <MikeSmith> I can't disable posting to public-whatwg, so let's leave it unsubscribed for whatwg@whatwg.org for now, until I can talk with the systems team about setting it up some other way
  1218. # [21:48] <Hixie> they're in mbox format iirc
  1219. # [21:48] <MikeSmith> Hixie: excellent, thanks
  1220. # [21:48] <Hixie> MikeSmith: it's subscribed, just with mail delivery administratively disabled
  1221. # [21:48] <MikeSmith> OK
  1222. # [21:48] <Hixie> MikeSmith: happy to turn it back on as soon as we can do it in a way that doesn't lead to people's feedback being lost :-)
  1223. # [21:48] <MikeSmith> I will let you know as soon as I can make time to talk with them about it
  1224. # [21:48] <Hixie> roger
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  1227. # [21:53] <annevk> Hixie: just minor, but it would be good to have an updated spec, especially for ArrayBuffer -> ArrayBufferView and not throwing for isolated surrogates
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  1229. # [22:00] <Hixie> k
  1230. # [22:00] <Hixie> going through bugs now
  1231. # [22:00] <Hixie> (it would be good in general to update all the specs i work on. not clear why websockets is more urgent than the others :-P)
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  1237. # [22:19] <Hixie> where does typed array define what an arraybufferview represents?
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  1240. # [22:21] <Ms2ger> Does it?
  1241. # [22:22] <Hixie> i guess not
  1242. # [22:22] <Hixie> this spec in general seems to be missing clear conformance requirements and definitions
  1243. # [22:22] <Ms2ger> Yes
  1244. # [22:22] <Ms2ger> And it tries to expose endianness
  1245. # [22:24] <Hixie> and NaN bit patterns
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  1250. # [22:29] <annevk> Hixie: mostly Microsoft I guess and because it's in CR at the W3C :/
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  1252. # [22:30] <annevk> thanks for fixing
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  1270. # [22:45] <Ms2ger> Heh, apparently we don't like Shelley Powers because we're sexist
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  1273. # [22:50] <Philip`> But we like Anne
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  1276. # [22:52] <othermaciej> has there been a new Shelley-related incident?
  1277. # [22:53] <annevk> Philip`: was waiting for that :p
  1278. # [22:53] <Ms2ger> othermaciej, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Apr/0073.html
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  1292. # [23:19] <scott_gonzalez> document.activeElement should never be inside the shadow DOM, correct?
  1293. # [23:19] <annevk> correct
  1294. # [23:20] <scott_gonzalez> Time to file a bug with Mozilla...
  1295. # [23:20] <annevk> Mozilla implements shadow DOM?
  1296. # [23:21] <scott_gonzalez> I don't know if they expose it, but they seem to be using it for <input type="file">
  1297. # [23:21] <annevk> that's XBL I guess
  1298. # [23:22] <annevk> sounds like a pretty bad bug
  1299. # [23:22] <scott_gonzalez> At least that's what it looks like. When <input type="file"> gets focus by clicking on the text field portion of the element, document.activeElement is <input type="text" tabindex="-1" readonly="">
  1300. # [23:22] <scott_gonzalez> http://jsfiddle.net/wfkxu/
  1301. # [23:22] <annevk> be interesting to poke around
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  1310. # [23:35] <Hixie> annevk: are these e-mails ones i should send you and ms2ger? http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#dom-core
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  1313. # [23:36] * annevk looks
  1314. # [23:36] <annevk> Hixie: I already replied to those
  1315. # [23:37] <annevk> Hixie: wait hmm
  1316. # [23:37] <annevk> Hixie: so we moved classList, not sure if it's removed from HTML
  1317. # [23:37] <annevk> Hixie: we have an open bug on extending DOMTokenList
  1318. # [23:38] <annevk> I have pointed out the DOMTokenList thing in the past on whatwg@whatwg.org
  1319. # [23:38] <annevk> not sure about classList
  1320. # [23:38] <Hixie> annevk: k
  1321. # [23:38] <Hixie> annevk: so do you want me to send you those as a batch and have you reply to them, or should i reply to them pointing to the dom core spec?
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The end :)