/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-05-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat May 12 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:06] <annevk> btw
  7. # [00:06] <annevk> a bunch of people submitted feedback as @ replies to @whatwg
  8. # [00:06] <annevk> dunno really what to do with those
  9. # [00:07] <kennyluck> sigh
  10. # [00:07] <kennyluck> j
  11. # [00:07] <kennyluck> ust
  12. # [00:07] <annevk> suggestions welcome, I'll get some sleep meanwhile
  13. # [00:07] <kennyluck> just count them as -1 to the current proposal 
  14. # [00:08] <annevk> we don't care about that
  15. # [00:08] <annevk> this is not the IETF
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  17. # [00:11] <Wilto> Some fledgeling developers might not be so familiar with IRC or mailing lists, but likely just wanted to be heard as well.
  18. # [00:11] <Wilto> I might not -1 them for trying to participate. Just saying.
  19. # [00:12] * Quits: yodasw16 (~dgillhesp@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com) (Quit: yodasw16)
  20. # [00:12] <annevk> Wilto: kennyluck was not saying that and I was not saying that either
  21. # [00:13] <kennyluck> I was saying that counting them is at least better than ignoring them at all.
  22. # [00:13] <annevk> Wilto: in particular I was asking for suggestions on how to deal with them, since we mostly use @WHATWG as a broadcast channel, we don't really have discussions over twitter with that account
  23. # [00:14] <annevk> kennyluck: but I was not suggesting to ignore them...
  24. # [00:14] <annevk> anyway, nn
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  26. # [00:15] <Wilto> Oh, oh—voting against the _current_. My mistake, man.
  27. # [00:16] <Wilto> annevk: Totally redirect them to the CG. I tried to do that when people started a-bikesheddin' in here, too.
  28. # [00:17] <kennyluck> Wilto, yeah, that would work, I guess.
  29. # [00:17] <gsnedders> I guess a fair few of us use here to bikeshed in to avoid doing so on the mailing list :P
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  31. # [00:19] <Wilto> It is the place for the community to get their discuss on—I mean, I don’t deny that it’s good to give people a forum in which to bikeshed to their little hearts' content. It's the internet, after all.
  32. # [00:20] <kennyluck> Wilto, I agree. We need more places like that for purely bikeshedding issues.
  33. # [00:20] <Wilto> I enjoy a good bikeshedding from time to time myself. Red, if anyone's wondering.
  34. # [00:20] <kennyluck> Fore
  35. # [00:20] <kennyluck> 
  36. # [00:20] <kennyluck> 
  37. # [00:20] <kennyluck> For
  38. # [00:20] <kennyluck> exm
  39. # [00:20] <Wilto> Yeah. It's like herding cats in there, but somebody's gotta do it.
  40. # [00:20] <kennyluck> For example, 'display: flex' vs. 'display: flexbox' for flex box is purely bikeshedding.
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  42. # [00:21] <kennyluck> so are a lot of CSS stuff :p
  43. # [00:21] <Wilto> I vote `flexxx`, me. Sounds hip and edgy.
  44. # [00:21] <Wilto> Starring Vin Diesel.
  45. # [00:21] <Wilto> Okay, I'm getting punchy. You guys have a good weekend, yeah?
  46. # [00:21] <kennyluck> Wilto, you too.
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  210. # [14:57] <annevk> https://twitter.com/WHATWG/status/201293054546685952
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  219. # [15:45] <bga_> Google replaces GET params to json
  220. # [15:45] <bga_> http://e2a66cn9997j2srbkidin2psq2dusjaa-a-fc-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/ps/ifr?viewParams={%22displayLink%22:true, ... ,%22FONT_FACE%22:%22normal%20normal%2012px%20'Trebuchet%20MS',%20Trebuchet,%20Verdana,%20sans-serif%22}}
  221. # [15:48] <bga_> web is losing common protocol
  222. # [15:49] <bga_> external program can not parse it completely
  223. # [15:49] <bga_> :/
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  232. # [17:00] <charlvn> bga_: i have seen similar implementations, that would not be the only one (although probably from the most major institution)
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  234. # [17:12] <bga_> charlvn young devs that does not care about common standards disappoint me. RFC is law book of internet
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  239. # [17:43] <annevk> bga_: what's wrong with using custom format in GET parameters?
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  251. # [18:17] <kennyluck> I think asking people to join the WHATWG mailing list is futile, given that the Responsive Images Community Group actually uses the blog system for discussions...
  252. # [18:17] <kennyluck> And now the CG site is down *shrug*
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  254. # [18:19] <annevk> kennyluck: you're welcome to try something else
  255. # [18:20] <kennyluck> annevk, I was going to suggest the CG site but now it's down :(
  256. # [18:20] <annevk> the CG is currently about 90 people whereas the WHATWG is 1500
  257. # [18:20] <annevk> not sure it's helpful to require all those to subscribe to the CG...
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  261. # [18:25] <Wilto> annevk, kennyluck: Nah, I wouldn't expect everyone to. Anyone deeply rooted in the issue should take some time to familiarize themselves with the work of the CG, at least. Otherwise, I'm happy to act as the CG's representative on the mailing list.
  262. # [18:26] <Wilto> It just seems like the most practical approach.
  263. # [18:26] <annevk> Wilto: I do get the feeling the CG has been misinformed about a number things, 1) purpose of CGs 2) mutability of <img> 3) prefetching logic
  264. # [18:26] <annevk> which is kind of sad :(
  265. # [18:27] <annevk> I just noticed there's even an article on A List Apart with the same (mis)information
  266. # [18:27] <Wilto> 2 and 3 may very well be. I hope to work with you guys on clarifying those points, for certain.
  267. # [18:27] <Wilto> annevk: Yeah. I wrote it, based on the information we had at hand.
  268. # [18:28] <annevk> oh and fwiw, typos are just as likely with media queries
  269. # [18:28] <Wilto> I wish more members of the WHATWG had been involved in the CG from the start, for that reason.
  270. # [18:28] <Wilto> Sure. But we’re a lot more apt to spot those. MQ are familiar.
  271. # [18:28] <Wilto> As for item 1, I was under the impression that CGs were intended to allow the community to work together on finding solutions, and contribute to the standards process.
  272. # [18:28] <annevk> I doubt most authors know media queries
  273. # [18:29] <Wilto> —Most authors catering to multiple screen sizes and resolutions will. Of course they will.
  274. # [18:29] <annevk> when they got some traction at one point they looked mostly misused :(
  275. # [18:29] <annevk> people using device-width to detect iPhone/iPad
  276. # [18:29] <Wilto> You can’t make a case that learning two syntaxes is more simple. It's fundamentally flawed.
  277. # [18:30] <jgraham> If I have the right meme, familiar thing is familiar
  278. # [18:30] <Wilto> That doesn’t seem related.
  279. # [18:30] <Wilto> But this isn’t about some developers making poor choices.
  280. # [18:30] <annevk> sure it is, it's about all developers
  281. # [18:30] <Wilto> This is about an unfamiliar syntax, leading to more points of failure, leading to a poor experience for _users_.
  282. # [18:30] <jgraham> Having a syntax that doesn't let you do insane things is good for ergonomics
  283. # [18:30] <annevk> can't just ignore the ones that do the wrong thing
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  285. # [18:30] <Wilto> You’re saying this proposed syntax is completely free from potential abuse.
  286. # [18:30] <jgraham> Even if it means not reusing a more general syntax that would let you do the insane thing
  287. # [18:31] <Wilto> Let’s just assume developers can do things wrong in either case. That’s not a stretch.
  288. # [18:31] <jgraham> I'm saying it's tailored to meet the use cases
  289. # [18:31] <Wilto> And in any case, if you were to convince me personally that developers would prefer the proposed syntax, it doesn't matter.
  290. # [18:32] <Wilto> I sincerely hope you saw the comparison thread in the WG, when it was live.
  291. # [18:32] <annevk> Wilto: no
  292. # [18:32] <Wilto> Developers are almost unanimously in favor of <picture>. I lined to it in my last post on the mailing list.
  293. # [18:32] <jgraham> I haven't seen the comparison thread yet
  294. # [18:32] <Wilto> linked*
  295. # [18:32] <Wilto> Once it’s back up, it's a worthwhile read.
  296. # [18:32] <jgraham> But this isn't design-by-democracy aka design-by-committee
  297. # [18:33] <Wilto> jgraham: You're toeing a dangerous line, there.
  298. # [18:33] <Wilto> The developers should absolutely have a say in these matters.
  299. # [18:33] <jgraham> Not really
  300. # [18:33] <Wilto> And they are emphatic on this.
  301. # [18:33] <jgraham> Oh
  302. # [18:33] <jgraham> That was a reply to the first line
  303. # [18:33] <jgraham> Of course people should be free to present arguments
  304. # [18:33] <jgraham> Including ones based on ergonomics
  305. # [18:34] <Wilto> The fact remains that I am speaking for the developers I've worked with on this matter for almost a year now and every "+1" that comes along with that.
  306. # [18:35] <jgraham> Sure. But the important thing to communicate is the arguments they have presented
  307. # [18:35] <jgraham> Not how many people agreed with them
  308. # [18:35] <Wilto> This is the developer's preference, which trumps implementor convenience. And if this syntax stands to introduce more developer error, it isn't best for the user. That's the important thing, above all else.
  309. # [18:36] <jgraham> Sure, developer ergonmoics are an important consideration
  310. # [18:36] <Wilto> But discussing it in here likely isn't a convenient use of anyone's time. Keeping it on the mailing list is probably best.
  311. # [18:36] <jgraham> They are not the only consideration of course
  312. # [18:36] <Wilto> I suppose I haven't seen a clear argument made for the proposed change either, apart from "this is easier to implement."
  313. # [18:37] <annevk> it's a lot simpler to author as well
  314. # [18:37] <Wilto> Authors seem to disagree.
  315. # [18:37] <Wilto> As an author, I personally disagree.
  316. # [18:38] <annevk> it would be interesting to do some usability testing
  317. # [18:38] <Wilto> I'm sorry; there is no case to be made that this is somehow the developer preference. We can work together with that information and find a solution, or the WHATWG can choose to ignore it.
  318. # [18:38] <jgraham> Well I can see that it could be worse if you want to manipulate the srcset with script for example. Although I don't know if there is a use case for that, and it could be trivially made better with a DOM api like srcList
  319. # [18:39] <annevk> Wilto: I don't think you can claim to represent all authors
  320. # [18:39] <annevk> well you can I guess
  321. # [18:39] <Wilto> annevk: Of course not.
  322. # [18:39] <jgraham> Wilto: So far it seems that at least some of your preference might be based on miscommunication (the prefetch thing)
  323. # [18:39] <Wilto> I _assumed_ my role in this would be to share the prevailing sentiment from developers.
  324. # [18:39] <Wilto> That has nothing to do with syntactical preference, jgraham.
  325. # [18:40] <jgraham> Presumably it affects your overall preference though
  326. # [18:40] <Wilto> I suppose I don't entirely understand the "not invented here"-esque resistance I'm encountering here.
  327. # [18:41] <Wilto> I would like to think that developers stand to bring a great deal of valuable information to this discussion.
  328. # [18:41] <annevk> Wilto: it's not at all that, it's just that a design not based on <img> is way more complicated
  329. # [18:41] <jgraham> I think the problem is that you are thinking in terms of NIH
  330. # [18:41] <Wilto> annevk: For whom?
  331. # [18:41] <annevk> for everyone
  332. # [18:42] <Wilto> annevk: What’s more complicated and error prone: an especially long sentence in a language one understands, or an especially short one in a language one doesn't fully understand?
  333. # [18:42] <jgraham> Wilto: I seriously suggest not thinking of this as an us-vs-them situation, and taking the time to present the arguments that you have
  334. # [18:42] <jgraham> and being open to arguments from people who are coming to the problem afresh, or from a different perspective
  335. # [18:42] <Wilto> jgraham: That is exactly what I've wanted. Somehow, it seems that all this has been framed as a defense of the syntax that we've been working on — the burden of proof is on us.
  336. # [18:43] <Wilto> jgraham: I'd like to share what we've learned with those people.
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  338. # [18:43] <Wilto> But again, all we're going to do here is dig in our heels further. It's best if we hash these things out on the mailing list.
  339. # [18:44] <jgraham> Wilto: My suggestion is that you post a mail to WHATWG presenting an alternative proposal and giving as many pros/cons relative to hober's proposl as you think are relevant
  340. # [18:44] <Wilto> jgraham: I will, for certain. That's been the plan.
  341. # [18:44] <jgraham> Great. When you do that I think we can have a more productive discussion :)
  342. # [18:45] <Wilto> I certainly hope so.
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  344. # [18:46] <Wilto> And if I've come across as "attacking," I promise you all it wasn't my intention. I just want to make sure we're all on equal footing, so that we can work together on getting this solved.
  345. # [18:47] <Wilto> My written tone kinda sucks, too. That's on me, and I apologize if I've seemed confrontational here.
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  386. # [21:15] <divya> /msg wilto yoyo
  387. # [21:15] <divya> Oops :)
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  416. # [23:03] <Wilto> Protocol question for you guys, if anyone’s here.
  417. # [23:03] * Quits: izhak (~izhak@188.168.201.226) (Remote host closed the connection)
  418. # [23:03] <webben> ?
  419. # [23:04] <Wilto> So, I’ve assembled all my details and use-cases and such at https://github.com/Wilto/respimg/#adaptive-image-element
  420. # [23:04] <Wilto> What would be less obnoxious: posting it wholesale to the mailing list, or preparing a quick summary with links to the important sections?
  421. # [23:05] <Wilto> I’m almost certain the latter, but didn’t know if having it all the information centralized on the list might be easier for everyone.
  422. # [23:06] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@157.22.41.229)
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  425. # [23:13] <webben> dunno that either's obnoxious
  426. # [23:13] <Wilto> Well, suppose that’s fair. What’s the best way to present this information, then?
  427. # [23:14] <Wilto> Happy to serve this up in whatever way is most helpful to everyone.
  428. # [23:14] * Joins: jarib (~jarib@unaffiliated/jarib)
  429. # [23:14] <webben> Wilto: Posting a link to the page seems fine. So does converting it to plain text and putting it in an email with a link.
  430. # [23:15] <webben> The advantage of the later is it makes it easier to quote and respond.
  431. # [23:15] <webben> Wilto: but hey, it's markdown so it's not too much trouble either way.
  432. # [23:15] <Wilto> That’s fair. Didn’t want to post a whole novel to the list if that’s frowned-upon.
  433. # [23:15] <Wilto> Thanks!
  434. # [23:16] <webben> yw
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  438. # [23:41] <jgraham> Wilto: Post the whole thing, but I reccomend reordering it so that the use cases are at the top, not the proposal
  439. # [23:42] <Wilto> Yeah, that makes sense. Also, I might post it to the WHATWG wiki—some GitHub readme floating out in the aether probably isn’t the most practical thing in the world.
  440. # [23:43] <Wilto> I’ll also be making it less… spec-ish. I was just winging it based on real specs.
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  444. # Session Close: Sun May 13 00:00:00 2012

The end :)