/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-05-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun May 13 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Wilto> Hixie: Sorry; would you mind setting me up a WHATWG Wiki account?
  4. # [00:01] <Wilto> Hixie: mat@matmarquis.com
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  7. # [00:15] <Hixie> done
  8. # [00:16] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@81.253.0.154) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  9. # [00:18] <othermaciej> Wilto: I believe your proposed sample solution to "3.4. High-Resolution Displays" is not complete
  10. # [00:18] <othermaciej> Wilto: you need to explicitly set a size or image-resolution for the higher-defeinition images, otherwise they will just be treated as larger, not higher resolution
  11. # [00:20] <othermaciej> (if setting image-resolution it would require a stylesheet rule embedded in a media query @-rule)
  12. # [00:21] <othermaciej> Wilto: also, it would be really useful to identify whether there are any important use cases besides resolution adaptation and available screen width adaptation
  13. # [00:23] <tantek> network bandwidth / reliability adaptation?
  14. # [00:24] <tantek> happens often in mobile use-cases
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  16. # [00:25] <othermaciej> I'm sure there's lots of potential other use cases, it just happens that Wilto picked ones which are also arguably covered by <img srcset>
  17. # [00:26] <tantek> othermaciej - hence I'm contributing those specific use-cases
  18. # [00:27] <othermaciej> hopefully the use case page gets added to a wiki so it's easy for folks to extend
  19. # [00:27] <tantek> if there are other potential use cases that others care about, they can contribute them. their potential existence does not refute or diminish the significance of the actual existence of the specific use cases I provided.
  20. # [00:27] <tantek> agreed
  21. # [00:28] <tantek> document all the use-cases!
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  24. # [00:31] <Wilto> Hixie: Thanks!
  25. # [00:31] <Wilto> And still a work in progress; grain of salt and all.
  26. # [00:31] * Parts: bga_ (bga@69.50.229.69)
  27. # [00:32] <Wilto> I noticed `img set` seemed to cover specific widths— 200w, in the example markup.
  28. # [00:33] <Wilto> I’m not sure if the plans include min-width, max-width, etc. I don’t think it’s a matter of one pattern out… adapting the other, so much as it’s a matter of making sure all our bases are covered with either. If we’d be extending `set` to cover all the same things media queries do, maybe media queries are the better option.
  29. # [00:34] <Wilto> `200w` just seemed very specific, at face value.
  30. # [00:36] <Wilto> I’ve added a few more while reformatting the document to be more wiki-appropriate. I’ll have something final posted soon.
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  33. # [00:45] <othermaciej> Hixie's proposed width/height semantics for imgset come along with a selection algorithm
  34. # [00:45] <othermaciej> so it doesn't mean just that one width
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  36. # [00:46] <othermaciej> it picks the widest that will fit in the available space, if I recall correctly
  37. # [00:46] <Wilto> Based on the container, or the viewport?
  38. # [00:46] <Wilto> Sorry; I’ve just been going on http://junkyard.damowmow.com/507.
  39. # [00:46] <Wilto> I can leaf back through the mailing list.
  40. # [00:47] <othermaciej> "The algorithm here could be to sort the images by width, and remove all
  41. # [00:47] <othermaciej> those that are wider than the available width (except for the widest one
  42. # [00:47] <othermaciej> if they're all too wide) or that don't have a width unless none have
  43. # [00:47] <othermaciej> widths"
  44. # [00:47] <othermaciej> it depends on what "available width" means
  45. # [00:47] <othermaciej> if it means the viewport, then it does the same thing as media query width selection
  46. # [00:47] <Wilto> Right.
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  48. # [00:47] <othermaciej> if it means the available layout space, then it's a huge pain to implement and would do something not achievable by media queries
  49. # [00:48] <othermaciej> I don't really know which was intended
  50. # [00:49] <othermaciej> I also don't know which is more useful to authors
  51. # [00:49] <Wilto> Oh, here’s something I’ve been turning over in my head:
  52. # [00:50] <Wilto> Should I put together use cases based on specced behavior? Obviously this is just an example, but the `monochrome` media query could _theoretically_ be used to serve a monochrome image.
  53. # [00:50] <othermaciej> the best way to put together use cases is to base them on things people actually want to do
  54. # [00:50] <Wilto> But in my experience, no browser really pays that media query any mind.
  55. # [00:50] <othermaciej> regardless of whether a given proposal supports them
  56. # [00:51] <Wilto> Yeah, I’ve been sticking to real-world examples. I mean, that certainly stands to reason. Just checking.
  57. # [00:51] <othermaciej> I doubt any substantial number of authors is interested in creating and serving separate monochrome images for monochrome displays
  58. # [00:51] <Wilto> I've worked with way too many wacky mobile browsers to believe in the phrase "in a perfect world."
  59. # [00:51] <Wilto> othermaciej: Of course. As I said, that was obviously just an example.
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  61. # [00:56] <Hixie> the algorithm is actually in the spec now, fwiw
  62. # [00:56] <Hixie> the only thing i haven't specced is some mechanism for the browser to automatically flip in a new image on the fly
  63. # [00:56] <Hixie> which is hard because it means doing an async network fetch and then switch it in a stable state, which is non-trivial to spec
  64. # [00:57] <Wilto> I can only imagine.
  65. # [00:58] <Wilto> As media queries are expanded over time, can we assume that this disparate method of detecting client information will be updated in parallel?
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  69. # [01:32] <Wilto> othermaciej: In example 3.4, the size of the image would be controlled through CSS. Or am I not following you?
  70. # [01:37] <othermaciej> Wilto: yes, you could control it through CSS, the point is that it won't give the right result without specific additional CSS (whereas for example the imgset proposal could handle scaling and lay out based on intrinsic size)
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  72. # [01:38] <othermaciej> Hixie: when you wrote the algorithm spec how did you operationalize "available width"?
  73. # [01:38] <othermaciej> we weren't sure what was intended from the rough draft
  74. # [01:39] <Wilto> Ah, okay.
  75. # [01:42] <Hixie> othermaciej: width of the img element's containing block
  76. # [01:42] <Hixie> othermaciej: or some such
  77. # [01:42] <othermaciej> Hixie: so, that's awkward because it means you can't start loading the image (or preloading for that matter) until after you do layout
  78. # [01:43] <othermaciej> Hixie: a version based on viewport/window width would not have the same issue and could even participate in prefetching
  79. # [01:44] <othermaciej> not starting the load until after first layout would have a significant negative effect on page load performance, based on my experience with these things
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  81. # [01:45] <Hixie> othermaciej: a version based on viewport width wouldn't really handle the use cases, but i'll keep that in mind
  82. # [01:45] <Hixie> gotta go
  83. # [01:46] <othermaciej> good point, to the extent that you are describing the image rather than writing a rule list
  84. # [02:06] <Wilto> othermaciej: So the higher density image is rendered within the intrinsic dimensions of the original src if no w/h values are specified, yeah?
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  86. # [02:08] <othermaciej> I don't know if the w/h are supposed to affect intrinsic size of the image as Hixie is drafting it
  87. # [02:08] <othermaciej> but the resolution selection does
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  89. # [02:20] <Wilto> This is… very confusing; I’m sorry.
  90. # [02:21] <Wilto> I don't claim to be any smarter than the average developer, but that in and of itself should say a great deal.
  91. # [02:22] <Wilto> I've been trying to write this markup as though it were for real use cases, and it is just inscrutable.
  92. # [02:25] <Wilto> That's speaking as a core contributor to jQuery Mobile, and having worked on the responsive BostonGlobe.com designs—tailoring things for client capabilities is kind of my thing.
  93. # [02:25] <Wilto> I'll revisit it with fresh eyes later, I suppose.
  94. # [02:29] <Wilto> Now that the Community Groups are back online: there’s no small amount of consensus on that point. http://www.w3.org/community/respimg/2012/05/11/respimg-proposal/#comments
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  99. # [02:50] <abarth> is there a charter for the WHAT community group?
  100. # [02:50] <abarth> i can't find the link
  101. # [02:51] <abarth> maybe its the same as the WHATWG charter?
  102. # [02:54] <othermaciej> there is not
  103. # [02:54] <othermaciej> Community Groups don't have charters
  104. # [02:55] <othermaciej> also they can self-create an operating agreement
  105. # [02:55] <othermaciej> which is similar to a charter
  106. # [02:55] <othermaciej> but the WHATWG CG has not done so, at least so far
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  110. # [03:05] <|Kellan|> Hi Everyone, I am redesigning my companies home page. We are a movie company. I am having a hard time deciding what is semantic for our photo gallery on our front page. Our page has 4 major sections. The first contains an image slider with our featured movies. The next section is a photo gallery of our 12 latest releases. 3rd section is photos of the stars we represent then finally DVD movie covers. Article doesn't seem right. I chose
  111. # [03:05] <|Kellan|> section but I am not sure it is right either.
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  113. # [03:31] <abarth> othermaciej: thx
  114. # [03:31] <abarth> othermaciej: what defines the scope of a community group?
  115. # [03:32] <abarth> maybe they don't have a scope and the patent protections are on a per-document basis?
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  117. # [03:36] <abarth> ah, there is a CLA and an FSA
  118. # [03:53] <othermaciej> abarth: the CLA and FSA are voluntary agreements that can be applied to any CG product, if a CG does not have an explicit operating agreement, then "whatever CG members want to work on" is about it
  119. # [03:55] <abarth> do you know of a CG that has an example of a well thought out operating agreement?
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  121. # [04:00] <abarth> looks like these folks have a bunch of text at least http://www.w3.org/community/native-web-apps/charter/
  122. # [04:02] <abarth> looks like most don't have an operating agreement (at least not in an obvious place on their pages)
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  128. # [04:30] <othermaciej> I would like the WHATCG to have a well thought out operating agreement, though I am not sure if the distraction and debate likely to arise in the process of trying to create one would exceed the benefit
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  131. # [05:04] <Hixie> abarth: the WHATWG CG's "charter" is the same as the WHATWG's, because it _is_ the WHATWG. The CG part is nothing but a way to provide the framework for patent licensing.
  132. # [05:09] <Hixie> othermaciej: so using the viewport dimensions instead of the containing block dimensions could work, i guess, since there's presumably a 1:1 relationship between viewport dimensions and the dimensions you'd expect the containing block to be
  133. # [05:09] <abarth> i wasn't sure if CGs needed to declare their scopes (like IETF working groups)
  134. # [05:10] <Hixie> abarth: there's a one-paragraph description, but no, they're pretty bureaucracy-free
  135. # [05:16] <othermaciej> Hixie: it depends on whether the w and h represent the image size or a desired target size
  136. # [05:16] <othermaciej> if the latter, then yeah, viewport size is totally adequate
  137. # [05:17] <Hixie> othermaciej: what's the difference?
  138. # [05:18] <Hixie> othermaciej: in the existing text, it's the size of the image. but i would change it to the max size of the viewport for the image.
  139. # [05:18] <othermaciej> well, if w and h indicate the size of the image, how would the algorithm combine that with a viewport size to pick one?
  140. # [05:18] <othermaciej> ok
  141. # [05:18] <othermaciej> yeah, it would have to be max size of the viewport or something along those lines
  142. # [05:19] <Hixie> othermaciej: the problem is that it makes it hard to reuse the src="" attribute for a default fallback -- in the existing text i can use the height="" and width="" and src="" attributes to provide a default so you don't have to repeat yourself
  143. # [05:19] <Hixie> othermaciej: but the perf issue is pretty serious
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  145. # [05:25] <tantek> othermaciej - what's an example of what you would consider a good, well thought out, operating agreement?
  146. # [05:26] <Hixie> the empty string
  147. # [05:26] <tantek> LOL
  148. # [05:28] * tantek is not even sure what is meant by an "operating agreement" in the context of a CG.
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  155. # [06:18] <abarth> tantek: My understanding is that it's something you need to agree to in order to join the CG
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  158. # [06:30] <Hixie> is there an equivalent of indexOf() on String that starts at a given index?
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  160. # [06:53] <abarth> Hixie: indexOf takes a start offset
  161. # [06:53] <abarth> Hixie: it's the second parameter
  162. # [06:53] <Hixie> oh, good to know
  163. # [06:53] <Hixie> i should have looked it up!
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  190. # [09:48] * tantek reads logs to catch-up
  191. # [09:50] <tantek> abarth - a-ha, in that case, a good minimal CG operating agreement would be to require that all participants contribute everything via CC0 and OWFa FSA, per my recommendations here: http://tantek.com/2011/240/b1/w3c-community-groups-opportunities-suggestions-challenges#cg-opportunities - cc: othermaciej
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  205. # [10:41] <AryehGregor> tantek, there are already licensing agreements required when you join any CG.
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  216. # [11:42] <othermaciej> tantek: it's not clear to me from your blog post what benefits that would have over the existing CG CLA and FSA
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  218. # [11:46] <othermaciej> tantek: in fact, the CG FSA and CLA look somewhat similar to the OWFa ones in their effect (including the copyright license)
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  273. # [17:31] <tantek> AryehGregor, right, the W3C once again created a (yet another) custom (W3C-specific) license, I know that, duh. That doesn't dispute my post.
  274. # [17:32] <tantek> othermaciej, the advantages of CC0 and OWFa have already been well established. (just like MIT etc.)
  275. # [17:32] <Ms2ger> jgraham, do you know if people have thought about testing worker apis?
  276. # [17:32] <tantek> the biggest ones are a) standard licensing (as opposed to bespoke W3C licensing), which leads to b) more portability.
  277. # [17:33] <tantek> No spec should be beholden to any one specific standards organization. Standards organizations should be a means to the ends of producing useful specs, nothing more.
  278. # [17:33] <tantek> They should be tools/services, not "owners".
  279. # [17:34] <Ms2ger> This is the W3C we're talking about, right?
  280. # [17:34] <tantek> Thus if the services/tools fail for any reason, or if better tools/services emerge, those working on the spec should have the freedom to move the spec to different tools/services. That's what you get with standard (organization independent) licenses.
  281. # [17:34] <tantek> Ms2ger - scroll up re: CGs / licensing / operating agreement. Yes this is re: my blog post about suggestions of how to better use CGs.
  282. # [17:34] <tantek> (link in the logs ;) )
  283. # [17:35] <Ms2ger> I know
  284. # [17:35] <Ms2ger> I'm cynical.
  285. # [17:35] <tantek> this is why for example, Annevk and I put CC0 and OWFa on the Fullscreen spec.
  286. # [17:37] <Ms2ger> I note that neither is on the spec right now.
  287. # [17:38] <tantek> Ms2ger that's because Ian Jacobs demanded they be removed before the CG could publish the spec.
  288. # [17:38] <Ms2ger> Thank you for making my point.
  289. # [17:38] <tantek> This was a reversal of the policy as understood before (that CGs were allowed to multilicense)
  290. # [17:39] <tantek> so that's in dispute. we plan on putting those licenses back.
  291. # [17:39] <tantek> but for now, just wanted to publish a draft rather than to wait for that fight to finish.
  292. # [17:40] <tantek> also, I've worked with Mozilla's lawyers on this (had them review CG CLA vs. CC0 vs. OWFa), and I can say that yes, our lawyers determined that not only was it *ok* (compatible) to multilicense specs with CG CLA, CC0, OWFa, but that it's a *good thing* to do so. I'm working on a blog post accordingly with more details.
  293. # [17:41] <tantek> So yes, I can say that it is Mozilla's position (legal reviewed) that specs are best multilicensed with standard licenses, specifically CC0 and OWFa (in addition to whatever bespoke license any particular organization, like W3C CG CLA, that's required).
  294. # [17:42] <tantek> We're not giving up on this.
  295. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> Good to hear that
  296. # [17:46] <Ms2ger> I'll believe in the results when I see them
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  304. # [18:40] * Ms2ger likes how the Blob constructor should ignore the first element in the array per spec
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  322. # [20:03] <othermaciej> tantek: CG FSA and OWFa FSA have word-for-word identical copyright licensing terms
  323. # [20:06] <othermaciej> tantek: the material difference appears to be in patent licensing, where the CG version seems superior, and where it would not be fun to figure out if the two are agreements that it is possible to offer simultaneously (since one is a royalty-free license and the other is a non-assert promise)
  324. # [20:10] <othermaciej> (sorry about the broken grammar there, hope the point is clear)
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  326. # [20:18] <Hixie> don't the copyright terms even allow relicensing, or something? so long as attribution is given?
  327. # [20:18] <Hixie> if it's gpl-compatible it doesn't really matter what the terms are exactly, it's good enough for all intents and purposes
  328. # [20:19] <Hixie> (though certainly it's my opinion, and google's opinion, that furthering license proliferation is a mistake the w3c keeps making)
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  333. # [20:47] <jgraham> Ms2ger: zcorpan has written some tests We should release them, but they predate testharness.js (by a few weks iirc)
  334. # [20:48] <jgraham> *weeks
  335. # [20:51] <espadrine> Ms2ger: this Blob constructor thing is a bug, right? They mean "0 <= i < a.length", do they not?
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  344. # [21:31] <Ms2ger> jgraham, mm, MS also submitted some
  345. # [21:31] <Ms2ger> I was wondering about a way to write worker tests without manually messing with postMessage
  346. # [21:37] <Ms2ger> espadrine, do they? :)
  347. # [21:38] <espadrine> ok ^^
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  350. # [21:48] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Oh, well we should release ours then and fix up the harness afterwards
  351. # [21:48] <Ms2ger> wfm
  352. # [21:48] <jgraham> Do Mozilla have any tests? :)
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  354. # [22:01] <Ms2ger> Probably
  355. # [22:01] <Ms2ger> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/workers/test/
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The end :)