/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-05-14 / end

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# Session Start: Mon May 14 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:48] <Velmont> tests tests
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# [03:21] <othermaciej> wow this srcset/<picture> thread got huge
# [03:23] <othermaciej> for those discussing it previously: the CG FSA copyright license is non-exclusive (so presumably authors should be allowed to multi-license if they care to) and also identical to the OWFA copyright license (thus not really an instance of license proliferation)
# [03:23] <othermaciej> it is also pretty much maximally permissive afaict, only requires attribution
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# [03:34] <othermaciej> tantek: one thing I'm curious about (maybe to be covered in your blog post) - how is it possible to multi-license with CC0, since CC0 places a work in the public domain and therefore presumably makes it not copyrighted and not subject to a copyright license?
# [03:35] <othermaciej> I'm not a copyright expert so it's not clear to me if this is a genuine contradiction or not
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# [04:39] <jamesr_> any firefox mobile peeps around?
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# [08:06] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, if you read the text of CC0, it's really just an irrevocable royalty-free license to use the work however one pleases. So it's trivially compatible with any other license, in the sense that all other licenses are redundant, IIUC.
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# [08:07] <AryehGregor> Personally I have no problem with requiring attribution, but IANAL and don't know if the CG copyright license is actually compatible with other standard permissive licenses, so I'd prefer to keep CC0 in addition to be safe until I get clarification from lawyers.
# [08:07] <AryehGregor> Preferably approval by the FSF or OSI.
# [08:07] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: I read it - it claims to abandon copyright and place the word in the public domain
# [08:07] <othermaciej> "To the greatest extent permitted by, but not in contravention of, applicable law, Affirmer hereby overtly, fully, permanently, irrevocably and unconditionally waives, abandons, and surrenders all of Affirmer's Copyright and Related Rights and associated claims and causes of action..."
# [08:08] <othermaciej> it seems like if you surrender all copyright, you can't also grant a copyright license to the same work
# [08:08] <othermaciej> but again, this may be a naive and uninformed understanding
# [08:08] <AryehGregor> Ah, I see. You also have this: "Should any part of the Waiver for any reason be judged legally invalid or ineffective under applicable law, then the Waiver shall be preserved to the maximum extent permitted taking into account Affirmer's express Statement of Purpose. In addition, to the extent the Waiver is so judged Affirmer hereby grants to each affected person a royalty-free, non transferable, non sublicensable, non exclusive, irrevocable
# [08:08] <AryehGregor> and unconditional license . . ."
# [08:09] <othermaciej> yes, in jurisdictions where it is impossible to abandon copyright and place a work in the public domain, it is instead a permissive license
# [08:09] <othermaciej> but holding copyright is, by my understanding, a status that is jurisdiction-by-jurisdiction
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# [08:11] <AryehGregor> In any event, it is accurate to say that any work licensed under CC0 can also be used under the terms of X, where X is any license whatsoever.
# [08:11] <othermaciej> FSF does not seem to have examined the OWFA FSA or the W3C CG FSA
# [08:11] <AryehGregor> Which is the idea of multi-licensing, right? If I release a GPL work that includes some BSD content, I can accurately say that the work is GPL-licensed, because the whole work can be used under the terms of the GPL.
# [08:12] <othermaciej> I don't understand how it is possible to grant a copyright license to a work in the public domain
# [08:12] <othermaciej> since I am not a lawyer, I cannot do more than (a) notice my confusion; and (b) consult an attorney
# [08:12] <AryehGregor> If it's actually in the public domain, then I'd think you can't "grant" a license, no.
# [08:13] <AryehGregor> But it doesn't really matter. If the work is marked as CC0, then any additional licenses are redundant and therefore harmless.
# [08:14] <othermaciej> what I would expect is that they are not only redundant but ineffective
# [08:14] <othermaciej> but of course public domain grants you all the rights that any possible copyright license would
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# [08:14] <AryehGregor> What would it mean for it be "ineffective"?
# [08:15] <othermaciej> I mean that you can't grant a copyright license to a work not under copyright, as I understand it
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# [08:17] <AryehGregor> Right, doing so makes no sense, but is also harmless. I mean, I could write a piece of paper that says "I hereby grant othermaciej the right to vote in United States presidential elections" and give it to you. It would be stupid, and not technically correct, but in the end it makes no difference to anything.
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# [08:31] <tantek> othermaciej - exactly don't bother reasoning about it since you're not a lawyer. I've asked our (Mozilla's) lawyers and according to them, yes, it is totally fine for a CG to require contributors agree to all three (CC0, OWFa, CG CLA), and then multilicense specs accordingly.
# [08:31] <tantek> no conflicts, and such multilicensing is compatible and preferable.
# [08:32] <AryehGregor> Do they have an opinion on whether the CG CLA is GPL-compatible?
# [08:32] <AryehGregor> Or BSD-compatible, for that matter?
# [08:32] <tantek> I didn't ask them to evaluate that
# [08:32] <tantek> we do know that CC0 is GPL and BSD compatible however.
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# [08:37] <AryehGregor> Yes, trivially.
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# [08:39] <AryehGregor> Which is why I told Ian Jacobs that I'd prefer to keep the editing spec CC0-licensed to make sure that it's GPL-compatible until I have confirmation from a lawyer that it's not an issue.
# [08:39] <AryehGregor> It can definitely be useful to copy-paste spec text into source code comments.
# [08:42] <tantek> agreed.
# [08:43] <tantek> Frankly I don't think Ian Jacobs has any right to privately ask for CC0 multilicensing to be removed from CG specs.
# [08:44] <AryehGregor> I just declined.
# [08:44] <tantek> I've already posed the recommendations/questions in my blog post of many months ago, and am still waiting for answers. Until policies are officially clarified with URLs on w3.org, I think the right thing to do is to keep the CC0 and OWFa multilicensing on there.
# [08:46] <tantek> BTW to be clear - I've raised the issue, and my (and Mozilla's) recommendation of using multilicensing on CG specs directly to the AB at their f2f meeting a few months ago in San Mateo (I was a one-time invited expert to the meeting). I didn't get *any* negative feedback about that course of action.
# [08:49] <AryehGregor> My editing spec was CC0-licensed before it moved to a CG, and no one objected to that at any point.
# [08:49] <tantek> AryehGregor, same with Fullscreen.
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# [09:06] <othermaciej> tantek: my plan is to ask Apple's in-house counsel since this does not appear to be an issue that can be evaluated intuitively
# [09:07] <othermaciej> I do think CG spec contributors should be allowed to multi-license in whatever way they choose
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# [09:07] <othermaciej> not sure why the w3c would say otherwise, and it seems against the spirit of CGs to refuse
# [09:09] <othermaciej> I don't personally have a problem with anyone who wants to using CC0 but I do not think I'd push for it or use it myself, as it's not clear to me that removing the attribution requirement is worth the extra license complexity
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# [09:25] <AryehGregor> I don't have a problem with the attribution requirement, I have a problem with using a license that's not widely recognized.
# [09:25] <AryehGregor> I'd be fine with BSD.
# [09:26] * hsivonen thinks it was a mistake that CC killed the license variants that didn't require attribution
# [09:26] <AryehGregor> CC0 doesn't require attribution. :)
# [09:26] <hsivonen> now there are workarounds like "you can attribute the wiki instead of individuals"
# [09:27] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: CC0 - The best CC license. :-)
# [09:28] <hsivonen> I'm saddened that the i18n group is filing bugs asking for complexity without use cases
# [09:28] <hsivonen> e.g. asking for non-ISO weeks
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# [09:28] <hsivonen> why bother if people in non-ISO-week countries don't actually use week numbers on forms
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# [09:30] <AryehGregor> Who uses week numbers on forms at all?
# [09:31] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: the rationale was "European business"
# [09:32] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: Personally, I've spoken about week numbers in "European business" setting but haven't seen them on a Web form ever, IIRC
# [09:33] <hsivonen> anyway, non-ISO weeks are so crazy that IMO we shouldn't support them even if it means that we need to drop ISO week out of "fairness" or something
# [09:33] <wilhelm> I use week numbers all the time. But not <input type='week'>.
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# [09:35] * hsivonen is unhappy about the mismatch of the usage of the word "weekend" in the U.S. and the start day of the week in calendars that are laid out one week per row
# [09:37] <hsivonen> even more unhappy that Ubuntu in en-US *language* does not have a pref for making weeks start on Monday in the calendar that pops out if you click the menubar clock
# [09:38] * hsivonen is generally unhappy about the coupling of en-US language and calendar stuff in software
# [09:39] <charlvn> hsivonen: just checked and kubuntu doesn't seem to have that option either, although i also can't say it bothers me that much
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# [09:41] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, the most common convention in the US is that calendars are laid out one week per row with Sunday as the first day.
# [09:41] <AryehGregor> Oh, that's your point.
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# [09:41] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: right.
# [09:42] <AryehGregor> In Israel, the weekend is Friday/Saturday, so we're good. :)
# [09:42] <AryehGregor> (historically Saturday was the seventh day according to everyone, AFAIK, but I guess lately no one cares about the religious significance outside of Israel)
# [09:44] <charlvn> haven't tested this but http://tuxtweaks.com/2008/12/change-the-week-start-day-in-ubuntu/
# [09:45] <hsivonen> charlvn: thanks. though I wonder if that breaks when software is updated or something
# [09:46] <hsivonen> for some reason, Ubuntu has an English - Denmark locale. Maybe that would make the calendar ISO-compliant while using untranslated UI strings
# [09:47] * jgraham is unhappy about week numbers.
# [09:48] <wilhelm> Why?
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# [09:49] <jgraham> Because they don't really make any sense (see: confusion about zero-point) and I never know which week it is. It always seems less ambiguous to use dates
# [09:49] <jgraham> (week numbers are never used in the UK. This may affect my bias)
# [09:50] <hsivonen> they never make sense unless both parties of the communication are looking at a calendar that renders week numbers *and uses Standard ISO week numbers*
# [09:51] <hsivonen> example of FAIL: hotel in Portugal using ad hoc week numbers and expecting guests from parts of Europe where people expect ISO weeks to be the standard EU-wide
# [09:51] <wilhelm> jgraham: They make perfect sense in countries where they are actually used. (c:
# [09:52] <jgraham> I live in a country where they are actually used and it just means that I am permanently confused
# [09:52] <jgraham> Or, at least, unable to work out when things are happening
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# [09:54] <othermaciej> do ISO weeks start on Monday?
# [09:54] <hsivonen> othermaciej: yes
# [09:55] <AryehGregor> Week numbers are also never used in the US.
# [09:55] <othermaciej> is that the way calendars are usually laid out in Europe? (it's been a while since I've seen a non-American calendar)
# [09:55] <AryehGregor> (that I've ever seen)
# [09:55] <othermaciej> I've certainly not seen week numbers used for anything
# [09:55] <AryehGregor> Android lays out weeks starting with Monday. It annoys me slightly. Especially since I actually live in the one country where the workweek starts on Sunday. :)
# [09:56] <hsivonen> othermaciej: at least over here (Finland), calendars are laid out with Monday in the first weekday column and Sunday in the last weekday column
# [09:56] <hsivonen> (typically with the *ISO* week number as the first column to the left of the Monday column)
# [09:57] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: so you've moved from New York to Israel?
# [09:57] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, yes.
# [09:58] <AryehGregor> Currently Jerusalem.
# [09:58] <othermaciej> given the way week numbers are used in europe, would it be plausible to input one in a Web form, even if it is not usually done>
# [09:58] <othermaciej> ?
# [09:59] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I suppose it's *plausible*, since people do agree to do stuff on week N.
# [09:59] <jgraham> Yeah, although the idea of it horrifies me :)
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# [10:09] <wilhelm> Here's a Scandinavian calendar: http://www.timeanddate.no/kalender/
# [10:15] <hsivonen> whoa. Norway and Denmark take the Monday off for Pentecost
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# [10:18] <hsivonen> annevk, Ms2ger, Hixie: Now that cloning a node has moved out of the HTML spec, dealing with the "already started" flag can't be traced from the cloning algorithm
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# [10:18] <hsivonen> so basically you have to know what to look for in order to know what the cloning steps need to do to find additional normative statements beyond DOM Core
# [10:19] <jgraham> Oh, that sounds extremely bad
# [10:19] <annevk> it has been argued HTML and DOM should be the same spec
# [10:20] <annevk> but I'm not sure if that's better
# [10:20] <annevk> the normative reference crowd would not be pleased
# [10:21] <annevk> hsivonen: we can probably add a note under it that points to HTML
# [10:21] <annevk> hsivonen: if you think that works please file a bug
# [10:22] <annevk> jgraham: "extremely"
# [10:22] <annevk> jgraham: it's just a search in some other platform specs that deal with nodes, there's not that many
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# [10:23] <hsivonen> annevk: ok. I'll file a bug
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# [10:24] <jgraham> annevk: The expectation that people implementing any feature should do a full search of specs other than the one that defines the feature is unreasonable and will lead to problems
# [10:27] <annevk> it kind of depends on how you implement and define the feature really, it's quite clear here that there are other requirements elsewhere
# [10:27] <annevk> but I guess that's a fine argument to make against modularization
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# [10:30] <hsivonen> filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17044
# [10:31] <AryehGregor> The DOM spec should create a hook for the HTML spec to alert readers that it's an extension point, probably, or something like that.
# [10:31] <AryehGregor> With a note pointing to HTML.
# [10:31] <AryehGregor> (or we should just have mutual normative dependency, but . . .)
# [10:32] <annevk> it has a hook for more than HTML
# [10:32] <annevk> since it's prolly needed by SVG too
# [10:32] <annevk> and the shadow stuff I guess
# [10:32] <annevk> although maybe the shadow stuff should move into DOM
# [10:33] <AryehGregor> Ah, I see, it does have a hook.
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# [11:13] <AryehGregor> Nice -- Google autosuggest noticed I live in Israel and when I typed "xhr", suggested "סיר".
# [11:13] <AryehGregor> Probably an average Israeli is more likely to have forgotten to switch their keyboard layout than to actually search for "xhr".
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# [11:29] <odinho> AryehGregor: good it was only a suggestion. -- not always nice being on vacation and google playing smart all the time.
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# [11:35] <jgraham> Google is very annoying. If I want to search in English it picks Swedish and if I want to search in Swedish it picks English (I guess it is also right sometimes, but I never notice those times)
# [11:36] <pcs> Google may already know you are interrested in IT (https://www.google.com/settings/ads/onweb/). Maybe the first suggestion should have been XmlHttpRequest.
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# [13:17] <annevk> argh
# [13:17] <annevk> why did https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=XHR stop working?
# [13:17] <[tm]> annevk: bug
# [13:17] <[tm]> this is the second time I've seen this
# [13:18] <annevk> someone renamed XHR to XHR 2.0
# [13:18] <zcorpan> data:text/html,<video controls style="background:lime;width:150px"> - seems safari/chrome/gecko get this wrong
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# [13:18] <[tm]> annevk: oh
# [13:18] <[tm]> not me
# [13:18] <annevk> the person who did broke a bunch of links
# [13:18] <annevk> can we change it back?
# [13:18] <[tm]> I don't remember doing that at least
# [13:18] <[tm]> yeah
# [13:19] <annevk> the same happened with DOM btw
# [13:19] <annevk> I guess someone renamed it to DOM4?
# [13:19] <annevk> this is really annoying
# [13:19] <[tm]> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=XHR is fixed
# [13:20] <annevk> ta
# [13:20] <[tm]> annevk: you want me to change DOM back
# [13:20] <annevk> yeah please
# [13:20] <annevk> I wonder what else got broken
# [13:20] <[tm]> dunno
# [13:20] <[tm]> what product is DOM under?
# [13:22] <[tm]> I don't find a "DOM4" component, man
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# [13:22] <[tm]> DOM Core?
# [13:22] <annevk> yeah sorry
# [13:22] <annevk> that used to be just DOM
# [13:22] <[tm]> OK, I'll change it back
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# [13:23] <[tm]> if there are any others, ping me
# [13:23] <[tm]> headed out to lunch now
# [13:23] <annevk> thank you!
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# [13:34] <annevk> so if we want to expand FormData, how exactly should we go about that
# [13:35] <annevk> setting it on <form> could be done, but you cannot currently populate it from the server
# [13:35] <annevk> although I guess if we define multipart/form-data better that would be doable
# [13:35] <annevk> you cannot really do FormData[field] = value
# [13:36] <annevk> because you can have multiple fields with the same name
# [13:37] <annevk> and some values have both a value and a name
# [13:37] <annevk> although I guess we could always make those File's
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# [14:15] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FormData
# [14:15] <annevk> proposed extensions to FormData XMLHttpRequest and HTMLFormElement
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# [14:25] <benvie> does Opera have a place where they put idls they use for producing interfaces that go into their releases/
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# [14:27] <annevk> benvie: we don't do IDL
# [14:28] <benvie> mm ok, to rephrase
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# [14:29] <benvie> is there a place that has a description of the DOM interfaces that Opera provides to javascript, preferably in a format that facilitates machine generation?
# [14:30] <benvie> (this being for use in javascript code itself, not externally)
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# [14:31] <annevk> maybe http://caniuse.com/ has something like that? I don't think we produce it
# [14:32] <benvie> I'm trying to expand the work I've done here to also automatically describe differences between implementations: https://github.com/Benvie/idl-for-javascript
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# [14:32] <benvie> right now it just produces spec based json but it's only a bit more work to also describe the differences as well
# [14:34] <annevk> cool project
# [14:35] <annevk> can't you just get the data for Opera by running the existing data you have through it?
# [14:35] <annevk> I guess that does not give you proprietary extensions unique to Opera...
# [14:36] <annevk> but I don't think we have many of those
# [14:36] <benvie> yeah that's where I'm going next, generating difs based on given json description vs. what the browser shows
# [14:36] <annevk> no bugs when parsing the IDL from the specifications?
# [14:37] <benvie> there's a small handful of things the parser breaks at, but in all instances I've commented those out and then put the changed version that parses correctly on the next line
# [14:37] <benvie> it's mostly some very new things
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# [14:38] <benvie> like in DOM4 for operations, the "default value" syntax has been used which the parser doesn't hndlr
# [14:38] <benvie> `optional NodeFilter? filter = null` which I replace with `optional NodeFilter? filter`
# [14:38] <annevk> k
# [14:39] <annevk> I'm asking as I don't run the IDL through an actual checker so they may very well have bugs
# [14:39] <benvie> yeah, and I'm sure with some of them there are. Many of the newer ones are generated directly in the browser by me since no official IDL exists
# [14:41] <benvie> basically like `[].map.call(document.querySelectorAll('.idl'), function(node){ return node.textContent }).join('\n')`
# [14:41] <benvie> but it works surprisingly well
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# [14:45] <annevk> what are we missing IDL definitions for?
# [14:48] <benvie> let me pull up my "thing which breaks all things" and look, one moment
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# [15:10] <benvie> ok it's breaking too many things. Anyway, the goal wasn't primarily for that purpose. Anything that implements the specifications should be fine. It's just that IDL has been primarily used to describe both the specifications as well as the implementation differences.
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# [15:12] <annevk> sorry about the ambiguous "we"; I meant what features have you covered that are not covered in any standard
# [15:13] <benvie> oh, none. The purpose is to simply translate idls provided directly by w3c and whatwg as json
# [15:13] <benvie> not to invent anything new
# [15:15] <annevk> oh, then I do not understand what you meant by "Many of the newer ones are generated directly in the browser by me since no official IDL exists"
# [15:15] <benvie> I was looking into the possibility of using the provided "official" idls from those sources as well as specs available from, for example, webkit's WebKit/WebCore/Source and mozilla's mozilla-central/dom
# [15:15] <benvie> to automatically generate the differences in actual implementation
# [15:16] <benvie> because the idls in those places to actually show pretty accurate where the differences are
# [15:17] <benvie> so I wanted to see try and include that perspective from as many major vendors as I could while I work on this
# [15:17] <benvie> there's way too many to do it manually
# [15:17] <benvie> (interfaces)
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# [16:13] <annevk> heh
# [16:13] <annevk> apparently XMLHttpRequest was authored respec at some point
# [16:13] <annevk> in /\
# [16:14] <annevk> almost six years ago after it changed I wrote "remove useless distintion between methods and attributes and put them in IDL order (which also happens to make a lot of sense)"
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# [16:16] <timeless> rniwa: no, you were contextual reference.
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# [16:24] * timeless beams
# [16:24] <odinho> timeless: WHAT!? :D
# [16:24] <timeless> list-users.pl now knows that mark must be Mark_Watson, because mark_vickers is Mark_vickers
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# [16:24] <timeless> -- my script for analyzing the roll call v. the speaking list grew some intelligence on Friday
# [16:24] <timeless> which is rather handy
# [16:25] <odinho> Oh. That's some smart action right there ;]
# [16:25] <timeless> sadly, the presence of Cythia_Shelly confuses "chaals"
# [16:25] <timeless> so chaals has to be changed to CMN
# [16:26] <timeless> s/Cythia/Cynthia/
# [16:27] * timeless is trying to confirm that "johnsim
# [16:27] <timeless> " is John_Sim and not something else...
# [16:27] <odinho> timeless: Can't see why? Can't it be smart about that too? Or actually print out its guesses when you do ,guesstimate . Then being able to correct it. Odin_Hørthe_Omdal is odinho
# [16:27] <timeless> he's John Simmons
# [16:27] <timeless> well
# [16:27] <timeless> i can cheat
# [16:28] <timeless> i can do c...m...n..._(chaals)
# [16:28] <timeless> and then it'll work
# [16:28] * timeless could do that
# [16:28] <timeless> yes, it learned to do that last week too
# [16:28] <timeless> and if there are two people w/ the same () tail, it generally decides that it isn't a nick but a something else, e.g. *_(Samsung)
# [16:29] <timeless> well, err
# [16:29] <timeless> it's /supposed/ to get that right
# [16:29] * timeless pokes it with a stick
# [16:31] * timeless cries
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# [16:31] <odinho> hah
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# [16:32] <timeless> well, Mark_Vickers as a speaker causes mark to be filed right
# [16:32] <timeless> but Mark_Vic_ as a speaker just results in the script giving up
# [16:32] <timeless> it says that both mark and Mark_Vic_ are ambiguous for either mark
# [16:32] <timeless> it isn't terrible, but it isn't ideal either
# [16:34] <timeless> basically it has two passes, and for ambiguous speakers, if a person is taken in the first pass, they're not considered as candidates in the second pass
# [16:34] <timeless> but the logic for handling people w/ first+last names isn't wonderful, and it doesn't handle all the magical ways people munge their names :/
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# [16:35] * jgraham wonders if timeless realises that, except in cases of internet-drama, he is the only person that reads the logs for 10 years (at which point hsivonen or matjas reads them and proves that the "original point" of some feature isn't whatever someone is claiming)
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# [16:35] <timeless> heh
# [16:35] <timeless> jgraham: well, ArtB reads them
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# [16:36] <timeless> although he tends to read them because he expects lawyer-drama
# [16:37] <jgraham> Alwyer drama is too scary for me
# [16:37] <jgraham> *lawyer
# [16:38] <jgraham> I have to cower behind the sofa
# [16:38] <jgraham> Like Doctor Who
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# [17:09] <matjas> zcorpan: I thought D at first, but I guess it’s A?
# [17:10] <matjas> does `<!--` give a free pass for _one_ `</script>` occurence, or what?
# [17:10] <annevk> http://a11ymemes.tumblr.com/post/23033757039/a-crying-woman-with-her-hand-over-her-face-says search for "duplicated" in search
# [17:10] <annevk> that's pretty horrific
# [17:11] <zcorpan> matjas: mohahaha :-P
# [17:11] <annevk> s/search/source/
# [17:11] <timeless> annevk: that's a scribe.pl s/// ? :)
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# [17:12] <annevk> timeless: it's for humans
# [17:12] <timeless> as opposed to perler-s. ok :)
# [17:12] <matjas> zcorpan: looking forward to the correct solution… i have some note-adding to do
# [17:13] <timeless> hey, was there a Rich other than Richard Schwerdtfeger? :
# [17:13] <annevk> it's C I think
# [17:13] <annevk> but I never followed the crazy <!-- in <script> thingie closely
# [17:13] <annevk> timeless: Opera's richt was not there at least
# [17:13] <timeless> data:text/html,<script><!--</script>hi
# [17:14] <timeless> annevk: right, that's helpful
# [17:15] <timeless> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1638348
# [17:15] <annevk> hmm C seems wrong
# [17:15] <annevk> :(
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# [17:17] <Philip`> "richt" is begging for a biscuit-based joke
# [17:17] <timeless> ?
# [17:18] <jgraham> You probably have to be English
# [17:18] <zcorpan> annevk: :-)
# [17:18] <jgraham> Which richt is!
# [17:18] <matjas> zcorpan’s current status: http://i.imgur.com/Emi0l.gif
# [17:18] <Philip`> Hmm, maybe it's a culture-specific association
# [17:18] <Philip`> http://www.nicecupofteaandasitdown.com/biscuits/previous.php3?item=31
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# [17:18] <zcorpan> quite!
# [17:19] <jgraham> Also https://twitter.com/#!/hallvord/status/200953940433584128 <- this seems to be undefined per spec
# [17:23] <jgraham> Philip`: That page is clearly wrong to prefer milk chocolate digestives over dark chocolate ones however
# [17:24] <jgraham> Although the behaviour facebook relies on seems to be impossible to spec
# [17:25] <annevk> jgraham: just takes longer
# [17:25] <jgraham> heh
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# [17:28] * jgraham wonders where the term "breakpoint" related to media queries has come from
# [17:28] <jgraham> It seems very confusing
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# [17:36] <timeless> Philip`: thanks
# [17:36] <karlcow> jgraham: I see it here at least but for pages http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-page/#allowed-pg-brk
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# [17:38] <timeless> hober: so....
# [17:38] <jgraham> karlcow: That seems entirely different
# [17:38] <timeless> to make my script happy, you'll appear as Edward_O_Connor_(ted)_(hober)
# [17:38] <karlcow> jgraham: yes. what I said for pages. :)
# [17:39] <jgraham> karlcow: AFAICT people are using it to mean "point at which the layout transitions due to a different media query taking effect"
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# [17:46] <annevk> http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/116384 <intent> ...
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# [17:49] <odinho> flagged off!?
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# [17:55] <timeless> http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/116384/trunk/Source/WebCore/html/HTMLTagNames.in
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# [17:56] <timeless> http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/116384/trunk/Source/WebKit/chromium/src/FrameLoaderClientImpl.cpp
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# [17:56] <timeless> #if ENABLE(WEB_INTENTS_TAG)
# [17:57] <annevk> odinho: oh
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# [17:58] <jgraham> Flagged off is good
# [17:59] <odinho> jgraham: OK. Not always easy to know. Depends on how you parse it :]
# [18:00] <timeless> odinho: you could read the diffs
# [18:00] <timeless> it was pretty easy to find..
# [18:00] <jgraham> odinho: The rule is that "flagged off" is good, "fucked off" is bad
# [18:00] <odinho> timeless: Yeah, -- I did that after posting the comment :P
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# [18:06] <annevk> TabAtkins_: when looking for links to prefetch, you're not going to parse CSS
# [18:07] <jgraham> annevk: Why not? I mean you parse HTML
# [18:08] <annevk> TabAtkins_: also the whole notion of making HTML links dependent upon statements in CSS seems kind of insane
# [18:08] <jgraham> That I agree with
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# [18:10] <timeless> +1
# [18:11] <Philip`> ("-o-link"?)
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# [18:14] <Ms2ger> (I have heard claims that support was dropped)
# [18:16] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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# [19:06] <tantek> hsivonen, jgraham, I don't particular care for ISO-week numbers either, nor for odd EU non-ISO-week numbers. They're both poorly designed. I prefer ordinal dates (2012-135) and different weeks altogether: http://newcal.org
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# [19:08] <tantek> othermaciej, from my understanding talking to lawyers, CC0 is basically a more internalized / international-aware version of the MIT license. If you're going to ask your lawyers anyway, please consider asking them if CC0 is close enough to MIT that you can use either or both (since apparently you can already use MIT).
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# [19:10] <tantek> And for those that have looked, the W3C CG CLA is basically a W3C-specific version of OWFa (same lawyer(s) worked on both). I'm annoyed that W3C didn't just use the standard OWFa by reference. Creating yet another bespoke license doesn't benefit anyone (see Hixie's point about license proliferation etc.).
# [19:10] <annevk> tantek: MIT requires acknowledgment
# [19:10] <annevk> tantek: because of "Copyright (c) <year> <copyright holders>"
# [19:10] <annevk> tantek: which you are required to include in redistribution
# [19:11] <annevk> tantek: CC0 has no such thing, especially in countries that acknowledge Public Domain
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# [19:13] <tantek> annevk - in practice I see no reason for such explicit attribution requirements in standards. In practice when using a standard people link to it which IMHO is sufficient.
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# [19:13] <annevk> I agree that standards should be Public Domain
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# [19:14] <annevk> see http://annevankesteren.nl/2012/02/standards-red-pill
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# [19:20] <timeless> sorryhrm
# [19:20] <timeless> does weinig ever get minuted as sam?
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# [19:21] <annevk> timeless: could be, also, I don't think there was any other Sam present...
# [19:22] <Ms2ger> Heh, nice
# [19:22] <Ms2ger> ToUint32([10]) == 10
# [19:22] <timeless> annevk: rubys
# [19:23] <annevk> timeless: not during WebApps afaik
# [19:23] <timeless> ah
# [19:23] <timeless> this is html5
# [19:23] <timeless> i already did webapps
# [19:23] <timeless> minutes needing to add one line for tantek
# [19:23] <annevk> timeless: weinig was not present during HTML
# [19:24] <timeless> ok, good
# [19:24] <timeless> so sam=rubys for html
# [19:24] <annevk> timeless: also, this is taking too much of your time man, you could do something useful, like write a spec or some tests :)
# [19:24] <Yuhong> annevk: When reparsing invalid XHTML as HTML, consider *disabling scripting* to prevent XSS attacks.
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# [19:25] <annevk> Yuhong: you can provide feedback for Opera's browser via https://bugs.opera.com/wizarddesktop/
# [19:25] <annevk> Yuhong: I haven't really been in the loop much on the XHTML -> HTML thing
# [19:27] <Yuhong> annevk: But you did create XML5, and I hope the XML Error Correction CG considers XSS attacks.
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# [19:28] <timeless> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1638460
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# [19:30] <annevk> Yuhong: best to email the CG then
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# [19:32] <Yuhong> annevk: BTW, on the Encoding Standard, are you really asking MS to add support for JIS X 0212?
# [19:33] <Yuhong> annevk: AFAIK, the Encoding Standard is a superset of what IE supports already.
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# [19:38] * timeless sighs
# [19:38] <timeless> <richard...> blah
# [19:38] <Ms2ger> http://tranbot.net/html5/
# [19:38] <timeless> rich: bleh
# [19:38] <timeless> Ted: eh
# [19:39] <timeless> Rich: blek
# [19:39] <timeless> so, clearly all 3 rich*'s are the same :)
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# [19:42] <divya> Ms2ger: where is this from?
# [19:43] <Ms2ger> The landfill
# [19:43] <Ms2ger> Or the W3C bugzilla, if you prefer
# [19:45] <Ms2ger> "I hope the abstract to be ,and still think about let the webpage be easy ,no more effect ,no use of graphic , to serve the goal of information bass"
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# [19:46] <divya> wattt
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# [19:47] <Ms2ger> Same source
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# [19:49] <timeless> Ms2ger: is that a valid korean translation?
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# [19:50] <Ms2ger> You think I speak Korean?
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# [19:54] <Ms2ger> "thats very interesting. i would like to know if that cross implied notice ever subsides?"
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# [19:59] <annevk> Ms2ger: what are you doing?
# [19:59] <Ms2ger> Triaging bugs
# [20:00] <annevk> for HTML?
# [20:00] <Ms2ger> Yeah
# [20:00] <annevk> ah
# [20:00] <annevk> I guess I stopped getting those emails now I'm no longer subscribed to public-html
# [20:00] <Ms2ger> "maxlength should probably be complicated with minlength"
# [20:01] <Ms2ger> Also, most bugs seem to end up in Other Hixie specs
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# [20:04] <timeless> in html-wg, is MC always michaelC?
# [20:05] <timeless> Ms2ger: that's probably because other-hixie-specs has fewer gardeners
# [20:05] <Philip`> It could be MC Hammer
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# [20:05] * timeless thanks Philip` for his constructive input
# [20:06] <timeless> ah, it is michaelC
# [20:06] <padenot> q/b 2
# [20:07] <timeless> ??
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# [20:16] <annevk> matjas: fwiw, you need to point to the parser section to answer parsing questions authoritatively
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# [20:17] <matjas> annevk: thanks. so ABNF is non-normative?
# [20:17] <matjas> also, I’m *still* not sure, so it’s far from authoritative :')
# [20:18] <annevk> matjas: well, it might be normative for authors, haven't looked at it
# [20:18] <TabAtkins> For what, CSS?
# [20:19] <annevk> matjas: but that requirements on authors don't explain what will happen in practice
# [20:19] <annevk> s/that/
# [20:19] <annevk> TabAtkins: no
# [20:19] <TabAtkins> Oh, I see the context.
# [20:20] <annevk> matjas: I like your twitter tagline btw :)
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# [20:21] <matjas> \o/
# [20:22] <divya> ++
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# [20:28] <othermaciej> annevk, tantek: to clarify, MIT license requires attribute if you redistribute the text or derivative works thereof, not if you simply "use" a standard in the common-sense terms (in case anyone was confused by "when using a standard"
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# [20:33] <annevk> othermaciej: I guess I was
# [20:34] <Ms2ger> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#the-root-element < nice page
# [20:35] <annevk> o_O Ms2ger reading TR/
# [20:35] <annevk> or is this the bug reports again?
# [20:35] <Ms2ger> I blame i18n
# [20:35] <Ms2ger> Yeah
# [20:35] <annevk> maha
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# [20:40] * Ms2ger closed 63 bugs
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# [20:43] <jarek> why there is no official SVG validator?
# [20:43] <jarek> http://jiggles.w3.org/svgvalidator/ tells me to go away
# [20:43] <jarek> what was wrong with "previous SVG validator" that it was pulled down?
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# [21:06] <jarek> should SVG authoring tool output SVG files with a doctype?
# [21:07] <jarek> I know it is in the spec, but according to https://jwatt.org/svg/authoring/#doctype-declaration discourages this
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# [21:30] <TabAtkins> jarek: No, just start with <svg>.
# [21:30] <TabAtkins> Doctype isnt' required for XML - it's just useless noise for SVG.
# [21:30] <jarek> TabAtkins: what about "<?xml version="1.0"?>"?
# [21:30] <TabAtkins> Doesn't do anything in any important reader.
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# [21:31] <TabAtkins> Start your doc with <svg xmlns="whatever the ns is" viewBox="0 0 foo bar"> and you're golden.
# [21:31] <jamesr> the xmlns= is pretty stupid
# [21:31] <TabAtkins> Correct!
# [21:31] <jamesr> start with <!DOCTYPE html><svg viewBox=""> and be more golden, right?
# [21:31] <TabAtkins> But every time I say "Let's just merge it into HTML", people complain at me.
# [21:31] <TabAtkins> jamesr: Won't work in <img> then. ;_;
# [21:32] <jarek> xmlns attribute seems to be required by Chrome
# [21:32] <jamesr> yes you need it
# [21:32] <jamesr> i'm saying you shouldn't, but today you definitely gotta have it
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# [21:33] <Hixie> if the choice is between DOCTYPE magic or xmlns magic, i think xmlns magic is the least evil choice
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# [21:33] <Hixie> in other news, holy whatwg thread batman
# [21:33] <TabAtkins> Next thought - change the root element. <svg2> puts you in the HTML ns by default.
# [21:33] <TabAtkins> Woo!
# [21:34] <jarek> there is also version="1.1" baseProfile="full" magic...
# [21:34] <jamesr> Hixie, why do i gotta choose one?
# [21:34] <TabAtkins> jarek: Those are also useless noise. Ignore them.
# [21:35] <TabAtkins> jarek: I have no idea if standalone viewers care, but if you're doing something for the web, *all* you need is the xmlns on the <svg> root.
# [21:35] <Ms2ger> jamesr, <!DOCTYPE html><svg doesn't work in XML, fwiw
# [21:35] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: That's the point.
# [21:35] <jamesr> i generally don't care 'bout that
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# [21:37] <jamesr> is it possible for two frames that are different origin from the root frame to get a synchronous JS connection to each other?
# [21:38] <Hixie> jamesr: because if you give 2 you're just wasting your time
# [21:38] <TabAtkins> Can't someone mutate their origin so they can communicate?
# [21:39] <annevk> jamesr: the main problem with your SVG snippet is the DOM it creates
# [21:39] <jamesr> can they? i dunno
# [21:40] <annevk> jamesr: if their effective TLD is the same
# [21:42] <annevk> hehe http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/23051147674
# [21:43] <jamesr> annevk, what defines effective TLD? i'm guessing this is something like a parent frame creates a child frame, then modifies its document.domain to point somewhere else?
# [21:47] <annevk> jamesr: two iframes on x.y.org and y.y.org set document.domain to y.org
# [21:47] <annevk> jamesr: HTML and http://publicsuffix.org/ have details on how document.domain operates
# [21:48] <annevk> it also applies to cookies, but I believe abarth didn't put it in the cookie draft (or had to take it out because the IETF doesn't like reality)
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# [22:03] <abarth> annevk: its in the cookie spec
# [22:03] <jamesr> annevk, thanks - once they do that, how do they get a ref to each other?
# [22:03] <abarth> annevk: its just not required
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# [22:04] <TabAtkins> jamesr: The containing page has to pass the refs over, I *think*. Though maybe a SharedWorker from one can be talked to by the other?
# [22:04] <TabAtkins> But I don't think you can send any objects to a SharedWorker that allow sync JS communication.
# [22:04] <abarth> jamesr: the sort answer is yes
# [22:05] <abarth> jamesr: frames can crawl the frame hierarchy
# [22:05] <abarth> regardless of origin
# [22:05] <abarth> parent.frames[3].contentWindow
# [22:05] <jamesr> aha! thanks
# [22:05] <Ms2ger> abarth, parent.frames[3] is the window already
# [22:05] <abarth> right :)
# [22:05] <annevk> parent[3] should work too
# [22:06] <Ms2ger> Right
# [22:06] <annevk> .frames is just a pointer back to itself
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# [22:16] <Ms2ger> Can someone at Opera look at DSK-363698?
# [22:17] <annevk> sweet http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/
# [22:18] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Yep, we all can. Don't you feel lame now?
# [22:18] <Ms2ger> :)
# [22:19] <Ms2ger> Ooh
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# [22:22] <jgraham> Anyway, I can get that fixed
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# [22:23] <Ms2ger> jgraham++
# [22:25] <jgraham> Well I'm not really volunteering to do the work ;) Although I guess it's not too hard to do that either.
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# [22:26] <othermaciej> annevk: nice
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# [22:31] <TabAtkins> Jeez, whatwg looks positively dead compared to www-style.
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# [22:55] <tantek> isn't this the WHATWG's primary failure mode? (e.g. respimg) http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/22831818920/the-css-wgs-primary-failure-mode
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# [22:57] <TabAtkins> tantek: That doesn't usually cause the WHATWG to slow down too much.
# [22:57] <othermaciej> I believe the two different proposals in that area are getting a reasonable evaluation of their pros and cons, at least in on-list discussion
# [22:58] <othermaciej> what more is expected, to avoid the failure mode?
# [22:58] <annevk> tantek: afaict the two proposals have radically different trade offs despite some people initially claiming it's just syntax
# [22:58] <tantek> annevk - good to know
# [22:59] <tantek> presumably use-cases will be used to determine trade-off priorities
# [22:59] <othermaciej> yes, the proposals are significantly different operationally, not just syntactically
# [22:59] <TabAtkins> Indeed. The fact that some people aren't listening to the "MQs are horrible for doing resolution negotiation" is annoying.
# [23:00] <tantek> resolution negotiation sounds like something you do with yourself at the end of the year.
# [23:00] <jgraham> Yeah, it seems like some people have a preconceived idea that they want to use media queries
# [23:02] <othermaciej> I prefer to think of it in terms of pros and cons rather than "one idea is obviously bad"
# [23:02] <TabAtkins> Oh, no, neither is bad. They solve different things.
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# [23:02] <jgraham> Well it's not obviously bad
# [23:02] <jgraham> But it's not obviosuly good either
# [23:03] <TabAtkins> It's just annoying that some people aren't listening to the "idea A *cannot* solve problem B, stop trying to make it do so" refrain.
# [23:03] <Ms2ger> ap, the spec is right, don't be a jerk
# [23:03] <othermaciej> it's not clear to me what the full list of use cases is, and whether there is actually a relevant use case addressed by one and not the other
# [23:03] <jgraham> It feels like some people think that it is obviously good and so haven't been very receptive to technical issues
# [23:03] <jgraham> that might suggest otherwise
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# [23:04] <ap> Ms2ger: what makes it "right"? screwing the engine that already had the argument optional for another one that mis-implemented same behavior?
# [23:04] <othermaciej> well, much of the pro-<picture> discussion has been based on perceived clarity of the syntax, without clearly acknowledging the difference in operational effect
# [23:04] <othermaciej> ap, Ms2ger: which bit of spec is this?
# [23:05] <ap> othermaciej: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=78887
# [23:05] <ap> othermaciej: specifically, comment 3
# [23:05] <jgraham> tantek: The fact that WHATWG avoids that failure mode might be due to strong technical leadership aka at the end of the day Hixie makes some choices and they generally aren't so bad that everyone pushes back. But when they are he generally adjusts the spec.
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# [23:07] <othermaciej> Ms2ger: do you have specific evidence that the spec is right besides what's in the www-dom thread (which I have not read yet)
# [23:08] <jgraham> FWIW my feedback on that is that importNode is never used so consistency there isn't a strong consideration
# [23:08] <jgraham> Also, we are screwed because Microsoft will probably refuse to change IE10
# [23:09] <Ms2ger> othermaciej, it's just sad that WebKit's official policy appears to be that a spec that doesn't match WebKit is wrong by definition
# [23:09] <othermaciej> Ms2ger: I think al's argument for why the spec is wrong is more sophisticated than "doesn't match WebKit"
# [23:10] <othermaciej> as I understand his argument, it says that "all older browsers used to default to false or throw, so making the new behavior default to true is unwarranted and dangerous"
# [23:11] <Ms2ger> Oh, it's not just here
# [23:11] <Ms2ger> He makes that argument every time a spec doesn't match WebKit
# [23:12] <othermaciej> well, I was looking at this specific argument, which seems prima facie reasonable to me
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# [23:13] <jgraham> I tend to agree. Irrespective of the general attitude of webkit developers in general or in the specific, in this case their argument seems right
# [23:13] <othermaciej> read the discussion thread now
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# [23:14] <jgraham> s/general attitude/attitude/
# [23:14] <othermaciej> I think I agree with ap's position in this case, it doesn't seem that he expressed his position in a jerky way, and it's not clear why the spec should trump WebKit and IE behavior
# [23:14] <othermaciej> Support Existing Content principle should trump "editors think this other way is more elegant"
# [23:15] <othermaciej> if editors don't agree with that, then it seems fine for implementations to ignore the spec on that point
# [23:16] <annevk> so in WebKit all arguments were already optional
# [23:16] <annevk> including for e.g. createNodeIterator
# [23:16] <annevk> where the NodeFilter constant argument defaulted to 0 because that's what undefined got turned into
# [23:17] <annevk> which incidentally makes it useless
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# [23:18] <annevk> in any event, I don't disagree with "Support Existing Content" but we generally do not follow that principle if browsers disagree wildly
# [23:18] <othermaciej> if there's specific cases where changing the default has been shown to create minimal compat risk, and the win to changing it is large, then it seems reasonable to change
# [23:18] <othermaciej> it doesn't seem like either of those conditions has been established in this case
# [23:19] <othermaciej> I think supporting WebKit-specific content and Trident-specific content still trumps "this other way is more elegant"
# [23:20] <Wilto> I trust everyone saw the `picture` use cases and polyfills posted to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Adaptive_images , yeah?
# [23:20] <Wilto> Just figured I’d throw that out there.
# [23:21] <annevk> othermaciej: I guess we disagree on that then
# [23:21] <othermaciej> given that Gecko-specific or Presto-specific content is unlikely to break in this case, since content almost never relies on an exception being thrown, and content narrowly targeting either of those engines is more rare
# [23:21] <annevk> Wilto: did you post it to the mailing list?
# [23:21] <Wilto> annevk: Yessir.
# [23:21] <TabAtkins> Wilto: Yeah for me, at least.
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# [23:21] <annevk> Wilto: I mean I did see it, but not everyone follows the wiki closely
# [23:22] <othermaciej> annevk: would you claim that, for example, mobile-targeted content that has only been tested in WebKit-based browsers does not count as content worth supporting, by definition?
# [23:22] <TabAtkins> Wilto: What does "full-bleed" mean?
# [23:22] <Wilto> annevk: Yep, no worries. It was posted to the mailing list as well; just wanted to be sure it got around.
# [23:23] <Wilto> Oh, 100% width.
# [23:23] <Wilto> Effectively.
# [23:23] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk.
# [23:23] <annevk> othermaciej: no
# [23:23] <Wilto> Gotta bolt; just wanted to check in. Thanks, guys!
# [23:23] <othermaciej> annevk: then what part of my statement do you disagree with?
# [23:23] <TabAtkins> Wilto: On the wiki page, I don't see good descriptions of why you want to make <img> responsive, in particular - that is, why CSS background images aren't appropriate.
# [23:23] <othermaciej> annevk: I assume what you disagreed with was 'I think supporting WebKit-specific content and Trident-specific content still trumps "this other way is more elegant"'
# [23:24] <TabAtkins> Wilto: I'll take the question elsewhere if you're leaving. Thanks. ^_^
# [23:25] <annevk> othermaciej: I don't really see it as a black/white thing; on top of that there's no WebKit/Trident-specific content found here
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# [23:26] <othermaciej> annevk: if there's no content anywhere that relies on the default, then there's less risk (still risky to have different defaults in different browsers), but I don't see anyone making that case
# [23:27] <Wilto> Oh—good catch, TabAtkins. I’ve been steeped in this stuff for so long that I can’t help making a few assumptions. I’ll add that for certain.
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# [23:29] <annevk> othermaciej: Firefox 13 seems to be making that case
# [23:30] <jgraham> Not if it is failing on mobile-targeted content bu no one is noticing due to the general unhealthiness of that ecosystem
# [23:33] <othermaciej> annevk: I do believe it makes that case for desktop-targeted cross-browser content
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# Session Close: Tue May 15 00:00:00 2012

The end :)