/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-05-24 / end

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# Session Start: Thu May 24 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [02:39] <dglazkov> TabAtkins: are there things like that in JS?
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# [02:39] <TabAtkins> Not in real JS, no.
# [02:39] <TabAtkins> It's something magical that only pops out of IDL.
# [02:40] <TabAtkins> (And which imo should be avoided as much as possible in favor of constructible things.)
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# [02:50] <Wilto> oh what the crap is this
# [02:50] <Wilto> http://axis.yahoo.com/
# [02:50] <Wilto> —Hah! Wrong window. Hi.
# [02:50] <Wilto> Question stands.
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# [06:40] <dglazkov> TabAtkins: IDL sucks then. It must be terminated.
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# [08:01] <annevk> abarth: the allowseamless stuff should probably include some advice about how to prevent being embedded by the wrong third party
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# [09:01] <[tm]> crockford left Yahoo?
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# [09:02] <[tm]> ah, paypal
# [09:03] <tantek> yeah - http://techcrunch.com/2012/05/13/paypal-gets-its-own-share-of-the-yahoo-diaspora-hires-java-icon-douglas-crockford/
# [09:03] <tantek> ironic since the recently deposed Yahoo CEO came from paypal
# [09:04] <tantek> the one that lied on his resume
# [09:04] <tantek> about having a CS degree
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# [09:06] <tantek> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/05/13/CMKC1OHF1B.DTL - scroll down to "Resume irregularity"
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# [09:06] <tantek> love this part: "Thompson sent employees a memo apologizing for the impact that the disclosure of his true credentials had on Yahoo, without apologizing for the error itself."
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# [09:06] <tantek> apologizing for how it looked, rather than apologizing for lying.
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# [09:16] <annevk> o_O
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# [10:34] <annevk> ideas for http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Howto_spec
# [10:34] <annevk> merge Content and Patterns
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# [10:36] <annevk> add more patterns: callbacks, class=domintro, cancelable events
# [10:37] <jgraham> It is very about:blank. You are likely to be eaten by a load.
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# [10:39] <annevk> jgraham: I don't get it :(
# [10:39] <jgraham> annevk: Oh don't mind me, I'm just experiencing the joy of about:blank today
# [10:40] <jgraham> My comment was apropos nothing else in particular
# [10:42] <jgraham> (I think I was thinking of "blank" as an alternative to "dark")
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# [10:53] <annevk> man
# [10:54] <annevk> about:blank sure causes a lot of pain
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# [11:10] <jgraham> with that in mind
# [11:10] <jgraham> hsivonen: yt?
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# [11:17] <annevk> so WebKit's location.origin is still not defined...
# [11:17] <annevk> meh
# [11:19] <othermaciej> was it ever officially proposed?
# [11:19] <othermaciej> if not, I can complain to the person who added it to the code
# [11:20] <annevk> pretty sure abarth proposed it
# [11:21] <annevk> the way to clean this up is probably by defining the URL specification properly and then have Location and HTMLAnchorElement use it
# [11:22] <annevk> I think [tm] already did some work in that direction
# [11:22] <othermaciej> is there anything about it currently that would prevent it from being used as a supplemental interface for Location and HTMLAnchorElement?
# [11:23] <hsivonen> jgraham: ?
# [11:23] <annevk> othermaciej: yeah, the attributes are defined directly on the URL interface
# [11:23] <annevk> othermaciej: we should probably have a [NoInterfaceObject] interface URLAttributes thingie
# [11:24] <othermaciej> annevk: would that make a difference to the ability of Location to reuse it? (I might not sufficiently understand the Web IDL issues)
# [11:25] <jgraham> hsivonen: So, I am looking at about:blank. Please feel sorry for me :) Also gecko seems to have some odd behaviour if you create an iframe, insert it, and then set the src
# [11:25] <jgraham> Let me put a TC somewhere
# [11:25] <othermaciej> in fact I am still super confused about the difference between sequence<Foo> and Foo[] and why both exist
# [11:26] <annevk> othermaciej: interface URL has a bunch of other stuff (such as a constructor) that would not make sense elsewhere
# [11:26] <annevk> actually, maybe it's just that constructor...
# [11:27] <annevk> see http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/url/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#url
# [11:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: Please don't try to make Opera behave like current Gecko behaves
# [11:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: unfortunately, I've been blocked from making progress on changing Gecko yet again
# [11:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: but the plan still is to change it
# [11:27] <jgraham> hsivonen: I'm not trying to :)
# [11:28] <jgraham> I'm trying to understand what behaviour is actually web compatible
# [11:28] <hsivonen> webben: The deps of http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=923 now track Maven stuff
# [11:28] <jgraham> (the spec is not)
# [11:28] <hsivonen> webben: I have almost no clue about Maven and depend on people who want Maven support to contribute pom.xml patches
# [11:28] <jgraham> I am told that it is relatively easy to change Opera to make it Webkit-like
# [11:29] <hsivonen> jgraham: firing onload synchronously?
# [11:29] <hsivonen> events that fire sync with parse are evil
# [11:29] <hsivonen> I still want to make the events for about:blank to fire async
# [11:29] <jgraham> Why?
# [11:30] <hsivonen> jgraham: they can run scripts, so they require putting Gecko in a state where it's safe to run scripts
# [11:30] <hsivonen> which add both code and perf overhead
# [11:30] <hsivonen> also interesting document.write() call opportunities
# [11:31] <jgraham> http://hoppipolla.co.uk/tests/about_blank/002.html
# [11:32] <jgraham> In Opera that currently claims to be 2 async events, but apparently it is sure that the events will run before any other script
# [11:32] <jgraham> In webkit it is one sync/one async
# [11:32] <jgraham> In gecko there is only one event
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# [11:37] <othermaciej> annevk: I just read the spec and complained about the parameter stuff
# [11:38] <othermaciej> annevk: anyway - are constructors inherited? I think they are not, so it doesn't matter
# [11:38] <othermaciej> annevk: only issue would be whether prototype-hacking the URL interface object would affect HTMLAnchorElement
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# [11:41] <annevk> othermaciej: what you want is implementing them and defining them in a single place, but the effect should be that they appear to be on HTMLAnchorElement, Location, and URL independently I think
# [11:41] <annevk> I don't really care how we go about that, I guess heycam|away can figure that out :)
# [11:41] <jgraham> hsivonen: So, what behaviour are you proposing, and how sure are you that it's web compatible?
# [11:42] <annevk> it might be that "implements" does exactly that, but I don't know what happens to Constructors
# [11:42] <Ms2ger> That's 'implements', AIUI
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# [11:43] <othermaciej> annevk: I think it might just work for Location and HTMLAnchorElement to both inherit from URL
# [11:44] <Ms2ger> No
# [11:44] <Ms2ger> There is no multiple inheritance in IDL
# [11:44] <othermaciej> ok, whatever the alternative to multiple inheritance is to add a mixin (is there such a thing?)
# [11:44] <Ms2ger> implements copies "constants, attributes or operations"
# [11:45] <Ms2ger> So, implements should be fine
# [11:45] <othermaciej> Location could just inherit, since it has no base class
# [11:45] <othermaciej> I think HTMLAnchorElement could use "implements"
# [11:45] <Ms2ger> It would be silly to make them different, IMO
# [11:46] <othermaciej> Location could use "implements" too despite not having any other base class
# [11:46] <othermaciej> I do not know if there is any other comparable case in the HTML DOM
# [11:47] <othermaciej> where an element and a non-element share an interface in common
# [11:48] <annevk> HTMLElement and Document for a few members
# [11:48] <annevk> but they're just duplicates
# [11:48] <annevk> duplicated*
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# [11:49] <Stevef> othermaciej: hi, what's the status on the <hgroup> issue?
# [11:50] <othermaciej> Stevef: I do not know offhand
# [11:50] <othermaciej> do you remember the issue number?
# [11:51] <othermaciej> there were draft reviews of all the proposals in progress, I do not recall if they have been posted yet
# [11:51] <othermaciej> if not, that is the next step
# [11:51] <Stevef> othermaciej: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/164
# [11:52] <Stevef> othermaciej: haven't been posted yet, paulc soad he was going to post them about 2 weeks ago
# [11:53] <othermaciej> ok, I'll check in with him
# [11:53] <Stevef> othermaciej: thanks
# [11:55] <Stevef> can anybody tell me what ted oconnors nick is?
# [11:55] <Ms2ger> hober,
# [11:55] <Stevef> Ms2ger:thanks
# [11:55] <Ms2ger> Np
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# [11:56] <Stevef> hober: any response to this http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012May/0008.html ?
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# [12:08] <webben> hsivonen: I'm looking into the Maven issue btw. How do you build and test htmlparser yourself? I want to verify my pom.xml doesn't break your workflow?
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# [13:15] <hsivonen> webben: I use a plain Eclipse project setup with its intregated incremental builder
# [13:16] <hsivonen> webben: pom.xml isn't part of my workflow at all except for making release bundles for the Maven Central Repository
# [13:16] <hsivonen> webben: hence, I don't grok pom.xml
# [13:19] <zcorpan> http://forums.whatwg.org/bb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5000#p7899 anyone have suggestions about what to do about this?
# [13:21] <ashemedai> MathML in Opera Next gets better and better, I have to say
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# [13:25] <jgraham> ashemedai: Interesting. Examples of things that improved?
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# [13:28] <ashemedai> jgraham: http://www.in-nomine.org/~asmodai/3d.html
# [13:28] <ashemedai> jgraham: scroll to alpha blending
# [13:28] <ashemedai> The entire layout of that part is just tight now, as it should
# [13:29] <ashemedai> of course, the other ones still can use some work :)
# [13:29] <Ms2ger> Heh, that looks bad on my opera-next
# [13:30] <jgraham> Yeah, maybe I am missing some fonts
# [13:30] <jgraham> But I see [r] instead of [r,g,b]
# [13:30] <Ms2ger> ^
# [13:30] <Ms2ger> Fortunately, Gecko is there when you need a good MathML implementation ;)
# [13:32] <ashemedai> oh wait
# [13:32] <ashemedai> Good point jgraham
# [13:32] <ashemedai> Totally missed that
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# [13:35] <ashemedai> Ms2ger: And you are right, just still have this pipedream of seeing Chrome and Opera implement more of MathML
# [13:35] <zcorpan> publish more mathml content so it becomes a sitecompat issue :-)
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# [13:35] <Ms2ger> Acid4 ;)
# [13:36] <jgraham> Convince Google to make google.com depend on MathML :p
# [13:36] <annevk> ashemedai: I'm afraid that as long as we use CSS and CSS cannot describe all of MathML displaying Math in Opera will be bad :(
# [13:36] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Well given acid 3 that would probably give you stubs for MathML
# [13:37] <Ms2ger> Acid4: The entire MathML test suite? :)
# [13:37] <ashemedai> mmm, opera next updater gives me a cannot validate file when it tries to grab the update file, at least manual update worked
# [13:38] <zcorpan> each pixel is a test
# [13:38] <ashemedai> annevk: Yea, but I'm happy with the intermediate work already
# [13:38] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, ... and they animate ;)
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# [13:38] <ashemedai> annevk: I should just use Mathjax in the meantime
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# [13:39] <annevk> ashemedai: nah, please publish MathML
# [13:40] <Ms2ger> Does annevankesteren.nl have any?
# [13:40] <annevk> ashemedai: and write about the problems you encounter
# [13:40] <ashemedai> annevk: I'll be adding more formulae to that page in the weekend.
# [13:40] <annevk> Ms2ger: I suck at math
# [13:40] <ashemedai> annevk: as in blog?
# [13:40] <annevk> ashemedai: for instance
# [13:40] <ashemedai> Can do that :)
# [13:41] <annevk> you can also create a wiki page on the WHATWG wiki
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# [13:41] <annevk> we try to track/document shortcomings of all web technology
# [13:41] <annevk> so whenever someone gets a chance to improve it, they know where to start
# [13:41] <Ms2ger> annevk, I'm sorry to hear that :)
# [13:42] <annevk> Ms2ger: the people who wanted me to define matrix-aware layout APIs were too
# [13:42] <Ms2ger> Meh, that's not real math
# [13:43] <ashemedai> annevk: Ah, sure, I can do the MathML page on Whatwg wiki
# [13:43] <ashemedai> So who do I bother for an account? :P
# [13:43] <annevk> ashemedai: you message me an email address
# [13:44] <annevk> ashemedai: oh and give me a desired username
# [13:47] <ashemedai> Thanks!
# [13:48] <ashemedai> annevk: Is there a specific subsection where status/shortcomings are discussed?
# [13:48] <ashemedai> Where I hook a new page under
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# [13:49] <annevk> [[Category:Proposals]] maybe
# [13:49] <annevk> hmm
# [13:50] <Ms2ger> [[Category:ToBeAssimilated]]
# [13:50] <annevk> oh or maybe http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Category:Spec_coordination
# [13:50] <ashemedai> Ms2ger: :P
# [13:50] <annevk> Spec coordination is probably good
# [13:52] <ashemedai> annevk: ok, done. Got the page up, linked under Spec coordination
# [13:52] <annevk> "Spec coordination is what keeps #whatwg busy at night."
# [13:52] <annevk> heh
# [13:53] <annevk> oh I wrote that
# [13:53] <ashemedai> lol
# [13:53] <jgraham> Well at least you can laugh at yourself
# [13:54] <hsivonen> ashemedai: convince Wikipedia to go all-in with MathML without MathJax fallbacks
# [13:55] <annevk> yeah Wikipedia really ought to switch
# [13:55] <ashemedai> hsivonen: I can try asking some of my Wikipedia-Unicode contacts about that
# [13:56] <ashemedai> Think that would be incentive for the browser makers to step up the game?
# [13:56] <hsivonen> ashemedai: If Wikipedia went all-in with Presentation MathML, yeah.
# [13:57] <hsivonen> ashemedai: (if they did Content MathML, they'd be too far out there)
# [13:57] <annevk> is it even agreed we should keep Content MathML?
# [13:57] <hsivonen> annevk: no
# [13:58] <hsivonen> annevk: we decided to make Gecko not corrupt Content MathML alternatives in clipboard operations, though
# [13:58] <annevk> mkay
# [13:58] <hsivonen> annevk: so we're trying to be nice about it
# [13:59] <annevk> I guess the MathML wiki page should at some point define the subset we're interested in
# [13:59] <hsivonen> annevk: but no plans to really support it, AFAIK
# [13:59] <annevk> if the Math WG is not going to do that
# [13:59] <hsivonen> annevk: are there parts of Presentation MathML that we're *not* interested in?
# [13:59] <hsivonen> annevk: I thought the subset was "Presentation MathML"
# [14:00] <annevk> what is <annotation-xml> part of?
# [14:00] <zcorpan> lala land?
# [14:00] <gsnedders> We've pretty much said we're only really interested in http://www.w3.org/TR/mathml-for-css/
# [14:00] <hsivonen> annevk: it's an integration point on the edge of Presentation MathML
# [14:00] <jgraham> hsivonen: So re: about:blank it seems like we will go for something WebKit-like unless we are persuaded otherwise (e.g. by a gecko implementation that is web compatible and doesn't have synchronous events or task queue mangling)
# [14:00] <hsivonen> annevk: you walk off the cliff when you walk into that subtree
# [14:01] <jgraham> Or by finding out that "webkit like" is actually hard to implement in detail
# [14:01] <annevk> hsivonen: right so maybe that should be "disallowed"
# [14:01] <gsnedders> i.e., only really interested in the subset of MathML that can be described by CSS.
# [14:01] <hsivonen> jgraham: :-(
# [14:01] <gsnedders> Of course as CSS grows that may expand.
# [14:02] <hsivonen> annevk: depends on how you view use cases for alternative semantic content for copying and pasting into symbolic algebra software
# [14:02] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yeah, sorry :( But it is hard to argue against something that I'm told is - at a high level - simple in our implementation and has known web compat properties
# [14:02] <hsivonen> jgraham: I understand
# [14:02] <hsivonen> jgraham: I fail for what I want being continuously vaporware
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# [14:33] <ashemedai> So feel free to let me know what you think such a page on MathML needs - http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MathML
# [14:34] <ashemedai> I'll add some implementation notes/details as soon as I get home
# [14:35] <annevk> ashemedai: feel free to phrase it more direct
# [14:36] <ashemedai> annevk: Phrase what more direct?
# [14:36] <annevk> ashemedai: like "Content MathML should not be used and is not going to be implemented by browsers."
# [14:36] <annevk> though maybe mention the copy-and-paste exception hsivonen was talking about
# [14:36] <ashemedai> Ah
# [14:37] <annevk> if we communicate our intentions clearly, there's less room for surprise
# [14:38] <ashemedai> Gotcha
# [14:38] <annevk> (and more room for debate, people might disagree with our stance)
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# [15:15] * annevk is making modest progress with http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Howto_spec
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# [15:16] <annevk> defined a bunch of event patterns
# [15:16] <annevk> and callbacks
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# [15:21] <Ms2ger> Anyone have a link for the previous readyState string/short discussion?
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# [15:28] <annevk> you're lazy
# [15:28] <annevk> took me a minute: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2012JanMar/thread.html#msg166
# [15:29] <annevk> but it's really my fault for responding here :)
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# [15:41] <matjas> http://lachy.id.au/dev/markup/tests/html5/charref/ lists 1449 named character references, while http://whatwg.org/html/named-character-references.html lists 2232
# [15:41] <matjas> would there be any interest in an updated test case for this?
# [15:42] <matjas> i was thinking of making one that automates the testing through JS
# [15:43] <Philip`> matjas: That test case has 1449ish lines, but lists multiple named character references on a single line
# [15:43] <Philip`> <tr><td>&<td>& &amp &AMP;<td>U+00026 AMPERSAND
# [15:43] <Philip`> etc
# [15:43] <matjas> right
# [15:43] <Philip`> which might make up some of the difference
# [15:44] <Philip`> (or all of it)
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# [15:45] <matjas> not all of it; there are only 3581 occurences of & in the source
# [15:45] <matjas> 3581 / 2 = 1790,5 < 2232
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# [15:46] <matjas> anyhow, just wanted to know if it hasn’t been done already, or if lachlan had an update planned
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# [15:47] <Philip`> Hmm, looks like it excludes at least the multi-codepoint references (&acE; etc)
# [15:48] <matjas> zcorpan: without checking the spec i’d guess A
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# [15:51] <zcorpan> matjas: http://i.imgur.com/Emi0l.gif
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# [15:51] <Philip`> There's http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/browse/testdata/tokenizer/namedEntities.test which would hopefully be up to date, but I don't know whether there's a way to run those tests inside a browser (rather than a standalone parser)
# [15:51] <Ms2ger> C
# [15:52] <matjas> Philip`: okay, I’ll just give it a whirl then — can’t hurt, right?
# [15:52] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: http://i.imgur.com/Emi0l.gif
# [15:52] <Ms2ger> Nice
# [15:52] <Philip`> matjas: More tests never hurt :-)
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# [15:55] <jgraham> http://test.w3.org/html/tests/submission/Opera/html5lib/tests/test_tokenizer_namedEntities.html perhaps?
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# [15:55] <matjas> jgraham: woah @ source
# [15:56] <jgraham> You can't decode uri components in your head?
# [15:56] <jgraham> :)
# [15:57] <odinho> Ms2ger: Seems test-runner doesn't run in IE10? I just wanted to check something, but seems it never really starts :-) Is it known, or an authoring fault from my side on making the testrunner.htm file?
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# [15:57] <jgraham> matjas: It was supposed to be a very general purpose way of converting the html5lib tests that didn't optimise for readability
# [15:58] <odinho> Ms2ger: fsck, it was (my :P) authoring error as I had a hunch it might be.
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# [16:01] <Ms2ger> odinho, does it work in IE10, then? I never tried :)
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# [16:01] <odinho> Ms2ger: Well, I'll see shortly, I need to stop reading IRC backlog first :P I'm easily distracted it seems.
# [16:03] <odinho> Ms2ger: Aaaand, it works! :-)
# [16:03] <Ms2ger> \o/
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# [16:21] <jgraham> It would be nice if Bryan Sullivan's name wasn't always written in loudcase
# [16:24] <odinho> Hehe.
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# [16:30] <zcorpan> nobody guessed the right answer for this quiz (other than by eliminating the wrong answers), i think that's a first
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# [16:48] <matjas> Hixie: why does whatwg.org/html/named-character-references.html#entity-DotDot have \u25CC\u20DC in the glyph cell rather than just \u20DC?
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# [16:51] <zcorpan> file a bug
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# [16:51] <tkadlec> e
# [16:51] <Philip`> matjas: I expect it's a placeholder so that the combining character is sensibly visible
# [16:52] <matjas> zcorpan: it doesn’t seem like a bug/typo, as other cells have it too… i just don’t see why — it doesn’t make it clearer
# [16:52] <matjas> Philip`: i think the extra circle just makes it harder to see the combining char
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# [16:53] <matjas> guess it’s just me then
# [16:53] <Philip`> If you didn't have any character in front of it then it'd appear too far to the left, which would also look unclear
# [16:54] <Philip`> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/25cc/index.htm has a comment relating to combining character indications
# [16:54] <Philip`> (I presume that comment is originally from the Unicode standard itself)
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# [17:22] <matjas> other mismatches between code points + glyphs on that page: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17170#c1
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# [17:25] <matjas> ^ writing those tests pays off already :)
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# [17:57] <matjas> test results: WebKit currently fails on 1 named character reference (&AElig doesn’t match Æ), the WebKit in latest stable Safari has 94 errors, Presto and Gecko pass all tests
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# [17:58] <jgraham> matjas: Nice, but you should test one of the many parts of the spec that *doesn't* already have tests. Then you should submit the tests to the W3C :)
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# [18:00] <Ms2ger> matjas, or review the submitted tests, if you like that :)
# [18:00] <jgraham> s/that/torture/
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# [18:02] <Ms2ger> shh
# [18:02] <jgraham> Uh right
# [18:02] <jgraham> Testcase review is really fun!
# [18:02] <jgraham> You should do it!
# [18:02] <Ms2ger> Hah
# [18:03] <matjas> thanks, i’d rather write my own :')
# [18:03] <jgraham> Problem is, if people start reviewing TCs, they will quit before they get to writing them
# [18:03] <jgraham> And I would rather have people writing TCs
# [18:03] <jgraham> Even though that means more reviewing...
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# [18:09] <odinho> Funny, Firefox does 1 test better than IE10 in MS' idb testsuite. But they both fail the same number (the diff is not-run).
# [18:10] <odinho> But both more or less lies at 84% pass.
# [18:10] * odinho wonders when WebKit will start updating their idb implementation...
# [18:11] <annevk> matjas: the &lang; thing is a problem in the publishing pipeline
# [18:11] <annevk> matjas: there's a bug on it somewhere, we haven't quite located the source
# [18:11] <matjas> annevk: hmm, can’t you just use numeric character references instead of the raw characters, or are those unreliable as well?
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# [18:12] <annevk> matjas: you mean instead of named entities?
# [18:12] <matjas> no, i mean for the “glyph” cell
# [18:12] <annevk> matjas: I think numeric character references are used, but the publishing pipeline fucks it up
# [18:12] <matjas> annevk: oh, i see
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# [18:14] <dglazkov> good morning, WhatwG!
# [18:15] <odinho> good evening dglazkov :-)
# [18:16] <annevk> dglazkov: still trouble spelling names I see :p
# [18:16] <dglazkov> annevk: I am mixing it up.
# [18:17] <tantek> good morning dglazkov
# [18:17] * tantek is debating whether to join the HTMLWG telcon this morning.
# [18:18] <annevk> dglazkov: GoOd
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# [18:18] <tantek> perhaps I should take a straw poll
# [18:18] <annevk> tantek: lol
# [18:18] <dglazkov> tantek: yes, but only if you do it ironically
# [18:18] <annevk> tantek: I can tell you how it goes: http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/12/html-wg-teleconference
# [18:18] <annevk> tantek: maybe you can write down your experience as well so we can compare notes and see how things have progressed
# [18:18] <tantek> ok, I leave it to #whatwg - please express +1/-1/0
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# [18:19] <TabAtkins> -1
# [18:19] <odinho> +1 (plus notes)
# [18:19] <annevk> +1 if you write it down
# [18:19] <annevk> otherwise waste of time
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# [18:31] <tantek> annevk - your post is similar to most of my past experiences on the telcon
# [18:31] <tantek> however, when I've had an issue (as in an Issue in tracker) to discuss, and have specifically brought up questions, typically I've had very productive discussions with the chairs.
# [18:32] <tantek> so I think the telcons are mostly what you make of them. if just lurking, it's perhaps not that useful. if you have specific business to raise/discuss with the chairs, it can be useful. and anyone can do that during the "any other business" part of the telcon.
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# [18:35] <annevk> not sure why you'd dial in for that, but then I'm not sure why I ever dialed into teleconferences anyway
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# [18:37] <tantek> annevk - mostly I've dialed in to help move along the various <time> and <data> element change proposals that I made to officially make the changes happen that I discussed/debated/designed with Hixie (and somewhat in this channel) ages ago - after we got rough consensus at the TPAC HTMLWG f2f last year.
# [18:39] <annevk> the <time> stuff was handled in such a fucked up way
# [18:39] <annevk> W3C HTML was not updated for months
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# [18:43] <Ms2ger> Mm, we support rest parameters now
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# [18:44] <annevk> Ms2ger: meaning?
# [18:44] <tantek> annevk - W3C HTML5 still lacks <data> :(
# [18:44] <Ms2ger> function foo(...rest) {}
# [18:46] <othermaciej> tantek: it was decided to restore it but it probably won't happen now til there are stable draft editors in place
# [18:48] <annevk> tantek: not the only thing http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/introduction.html#how-do-the-whatwg-and-w3c-specifications-differ?
# [18:48] <annevk> Ms2ger: is that the automatic array extraction?
# [18:48] <annevk> Ms2ger: maybe it's time we update DOMTokenList and friends then
# [18:49] <Ms2ger> Wfm
# [18:50] <annevk> maybe add a note to the bug?
# [18:51] <annevk> I'm gonna play with Howto spec a while longer I think
# [18:51] <annevk> and then maybe review a bunch of API specs and point Howto spec out
# [18:53] <tantek> othermaciej - is there a list somewhere of such pending edits?
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# [18:53] <tantek> (where a decision was made to make an edit, but the edit itself has not been made)
# [18:54] <othermaciej> tantek: I think most pending decisions have an open bug with WGDecision keyword, but this case may be an exception since it was a CFC not directly related to a bug
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# [18:56] * tantek is having some trouble following HTMLWG process intricacies.
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# [19:04] <TabAtkins> I'd be glad to see Content MathML dropped, since it contains the only two tagname conflicts in the language. Presentation MathML was careful (or lucky?) not to collide with SVG or HTML in any way.
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# [19:05] <Ms2ger> Careful
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# [19:05] <TabAtkins> Good to know.
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# [19:12] <tantek> interesting, an actual IETF draft to define rel="profile" - http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wilde-profile-link-01
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# [19:33] <dglazkov> in custom elements spec, I am very tempted to be just describe how things happen from JS perspective (i.e. prototype chain, objects in it, etc.). However, WebIDL/DOM4 and most other specs tend to specify things in terms of interfaces and generic inheritance concepts. Should do the former and not worry about consistency with existing specs, or should I do the latter and try to fit the concept of cu
# [19:33] <dglazkov> stomizable DOM interfaces into the WebIDL world?
# [19:34] <Ms2ger> Sounds like you're doing something wrong
# [19:35] <dglazkov> Ms2ger: yes, but what? :)
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# [19:35] <Ms2ger> Well, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish
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# [19:36] <dglazkov> trying to capture http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/explainer/index.html#custom-element-section as a spec.
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# [19:37] <dglazkov> specifically, describing the process of building a custom DOM element with a prototype chain, which includes a DOM object and an arbitrary JS object.
# [19:38] <Ms2ger> I don't think I want to lat you do that, dave
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# [19:39] <dglazkov> Ms2ger: it's too late for that, R2D2
# [19:40] <dglazkov> actually, http://www.w3.org/TR/WebIDL/#dfn-interface I think is workable
# [19:42] <dglazkov> it's just such a weird transpiler operation, having to speak in WebIDL when really everyone knows it's JS.
# [19:42] <dglazkov> can we just rewrite all specs to be in JS? :)
# [19:42] <Ms2ger> It isn't
# [19:42] <Ms2ger> It's C++
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# [19:50] <dglazkov> Ms2ger: that's just an implementation detail. C++ tries darn well to pretend it's not there. And Microsoft peeps are leading the charge to make it even less visible.
# [19:50] <dglazkov> in IE10 that is
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# [20:02] <annevk> dglazkov: is there agreement that we want to do such a thing?
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# [20:06] <annevk> Ms2ger: stumbled upon http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2012AprJun/0075.html
# [20:06] <Ms2ger> Heh
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# [20:10] <scott_gonzalez> smaug____ (or any other Mozilla devs): Do you know why scrollable elements are in the tab order in Firefox but no other browser?
# [20:10] <scott_gonzalez> Is it an accessibility concern?
# [20:10] <smaug____> yes
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# [20:11] <smaug____> scott_gonzalez: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=755766#c11
# [20:11] <scott_gonzalez> Target audience of sighted keyboard users?
# [20:11] <smaug____> (that bug is invalid)
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# [20:56] <rniwa> AryehGregor: yt?
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# [21:41] <gsnedders> "Ecma International now hosts a normative HTML copy of Ecma-262, Edition 5.1 The ECMAScript Language Specification."
# [21:42] <Ms2ger> It's not actually normative
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# [21:45] * cbright6062 tries to read over the recent posts here but gets a headache and decides to not bother.
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# [21:49] <cbright6062> I'd also love to see the day where things didn't seem to get so overcomplicated with everything. Lol.
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# Session Close: Fri May 25 00:00:03 2012

The end :)