/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-05-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 25 00:00:04 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  25. # [01:01] <alecflett> hey - is anyone around who can clarify something for me in the DOM4 spec?
  26. # [01:01] <alecflett> specifically what looks like a spec bug in the section about DOMException
  27. # [01:04] <gsnedders> Just ask.
  28. # [01:06] <alecflett> well the problem I have is that there's no specifically called-out field for the string-based exception type in DOMException
  29. # [01:06] <alecflett> so if a caller wants to check the exception type using the newer string-based mechanism, there's no way to do it
  30. # [01:07] <alecflett> i.e. rather than if (ex.code == DOMException.IndexSizeError) ….,
  31. # [01:07] <alecflett> there's no equivalent for the string "IndexSizeError"
  32. # [01:07] <alecflett> ie.
  33. # [01:07] <alecflett> if (ex.<???> == "IndexSizeError") {…}
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  35. # [01:07] <alecflett> ex.name? (consistent with DOMError) or ex.type (alluded to in the spec but not called out in the IDL)
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  39. # [01:11] <heycam> alecflett, it's .name
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  41. # [01:12] <heycam> alecflett, it's in Web IDL that it's defined that exception objects get a name property
  42. # [01:12] <alecflett> ahh.. .thanks for the clarification
  43. # [01:13] <alecflett> might be nice to have some non-normative reference to that somewhere in the DOM4 spec as I spent a good deal of time looking for it!
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  361. # [04:01] <ian128K> Just wanted to put in my 2¢ regarding responsive images: I much prefer the proposed <picture> element over adding a "set" attribute to the existing <img> element.
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  378. # [04:23] <zewt> (clearly what we need are: more unsubstantiated opinions)
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  409. # [06:41] <Hixie> i have a utf-8 validator function (given input bytes, give a thumbs-up or thumbs-down on whether it's valid utf-8)
  410. # [06:41] <Hixie> anyone got any good test data for that?
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  421. # [07:32] <asmodai> Hixie: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/examples/UTF-8-test.txt
  422. # [07:32] <asmodai> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/examples/UTF-8-demo.txt
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  444. # [08:36] <zcorpan> asmodai: nice tests
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  456. # [09:08] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: http://www.zurb.com/playground/responsive-tables
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  469. # [09:26] <Hixie> asmodai: yeah, i know about those, but they don't list the utf-8 bytes nor indicate valid vs not-valid so they're hard to use
  470. # [09:26] <asmodai> zcorpan: Yeah, useful at least
  471. # [09:26] <asmodai> Hixie: So what exactly are specifically looking for?
  472. # [09:27] <asmodai> Hixie: Because I am sure some of my acquaintances will have these tests lying around
  473. # [09:27] <Hixie> something like "0xC0 0x01 INVALID" "0x01 0x01 VALID"
  474. # [09:27] <asmodai> ah
  475. # [09:28] <asmodai> ok, let me dig around for you
  476. # [09:28] <Hixie> or "0x01 0x01 => U+00001 U+00001" "0xC0 0x01 => U+0FFFD U+00001"
  477. # [09:28] <Hixie> (since i can derive the former from the latter)
  478. # [09:29] <Hixie> (by looking for FFFD in the output side)
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  480. # [09:40] <matjas> http://mathias.html5.org/tests/named-character-references/ Opera and Firefox pass all tests, WebKit nightly fails one, IE10pre fails 3. IE9 fails 1869 of them.
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  483. # [09:45] <smaug____> I wonder why "If current node is a pre, textarea, or listing element, and the first child node of the element, if any, is a Text node whose character data has as its first character a U+000A LINE FEED (LF) character, then append a U+000A LINE FEED (LF) character." is needed
  484. # [09:50] <Ms2ger> Because otherwise the one LF is discarded when reparsing
  485. # [09:51] <smaug____> ahaa
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  489. # [10:08] <smaug____> hmm, does innerHTML work differently for data documents
  490. # [10:08] <smaug____> seems like
  491. # [10:10] <smaug____> I doubt that is right
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  494. # [10:11] <zcorpan> smaug____: data documents?
  495. # [10:11] <smaug____> zcorpan: I mean something like createHTMLDocument()
  496. # [10:12] <zcorpan> how is it different?
  497. # [10:13] <smaug____> "or if the parent of current node is noscript element and scripting is enabled for the node, then append the value of current node's data IDL attribute literally."
  498. # [10:13] <smaug____> I don't see what defines that scripting is enabled for a node in a data document
  499. # [10:15] <smaug____> yes, "(A Document created using an API such as createDocument() has no browsing context."
  500. # [10:15] <smaug____> so, different serialization
  501. # [10:15] <annevk> how can scripting be disabled if you're doing scripting?
  502. # [10:15] <zcorpan> but the spec doesn't say that scripting should be disabled for such documents, does it?
  503. # [10:16] <zcorpan> (scripts don't run in documents without a browsing context, but that's different)
  504. # [10:16] <smaug____> "Scripting is enabled for a node if the Document object of the node (the node itself, if it is itself a Document object) has an associated browsing context, "
  505. # [10:16] <zcorpan> aha
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  507. # [10:18] <zcorpan> yeah that seems like a bug then
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  509. # [10:18] <smaug____> and I was convinced that spec's html-fragment algorithm might be bug-free...
  510. # [10:18] <smaug____> but good to go through
  511. # [10:19] <zcorpan> who convinced you? there are open bugs on it :-)
  512. # [10:19] <smaug____> well, perhaps no one said bug-free
  513. # [10:19] <smaug____> but not full of bugs
  514. # [10:21] <zcorpan> i guess that's about right
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  517. # [10:24] <zcorpan> would be nice if the spec had annotations about open bugs
  518. # [10:24] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^
  519. # [10:25] <smaug____> that would be awesome
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  521. # [10:29] <rniwa> smaug____: hi smaug____!
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  523. # [10:29] <rniwa> smaug____: slowing improving webkit's fragment parsing APIs :D https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87454
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  525. # [10:30] <rniwa> smaug____: please file bugs & cc me if you find more bugs w.r.t. createContextualFragment, etc...
  526. # [10:31] <rniwa> oops I misread the long
  527. # [10:31] <rniwa> matjas: ^ what I just said to smaug____
  528. # [10:31] <smaug____> ok
  529. # [10:31] <smaug____> uh
  530. # [10:31] <smaug____> I'll file some spec bugs
  531. # [10:31] <rniwa> smaug____: yeah, it'll be nice if Ms2ger's spec becomes more mature
  532. # [10:32] <matjas> zcorpan: +∞
  533. # [10:32] <rniwa> smaug____: there are a lot of vaguely defined stuff in the spec at the moment :\
  534. # [10:32] <smaug____> rniwa: this is in HTML spec
  535. # [10:32] <smaug____> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-end.html#html-fragment-serialization-algorithm
  536. # [10:32] <rniwa> smaug____: oh, sure browser context, etc... stuff is in, yes
  537. # [10:32] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  538. # [10:32] <smaug____> looks like noscript handling is all wrong there
  539. # [10:32] <rniwa> smaug____: but that alone doesn't do much
  540. # [10:32] <rniwa> smaug____: because it doesn't define APIs for them
  541. # [10:33] <rniwa> smaug____: oh yeah?
  542. # [10:33] <smaug____> spec defines something that browsers don't do
  543. # [10:33] <rniwa> :(
  544. # [10:33] <rniwa> scumbag spec monsters.
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  546. # [10:35] <rniwa> smaug____: one of these days, i'll go through that part of the spec and give a more comprehensive feedback.
  547. # [10:38] <rniwa> smaug____: btw, https://plus.google.com/u/0/105748986001435560355/posts/63GRsrNgGK3
  548. # [10:38] <rniwa> smaug____: i made a sample code for obtaining mutation records between events
  549. # [10:39] <rniwa> the specific use case i was thinking of was for execCommands since those will how fire input event.
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  551. # [10:41] <smaug____> rniwa: your createMutationObserver doesn't probably work in Nightly
  552. # [10:41] <smaug____> which has MutationObserver
  553. # [10:41] <rniwa> smaug____: yeah, saw just your prefix removal.
  554. # [10:41] <rniwa> smaug____: i'll find sometime to update it this weekend
  555. # [10:42] <smaug____> rniwa: hey, btw, since I haven't managed to figure out how to update Chromium, does the latest build handle documentFragments correctlyl
  556. # [10:43] <smaug____> correctly
  557. # [10:43] <smaug____> I mean DOM changes to documentFragment
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  560. # [10:45] <rniwa> smaug____: what do you mean by "correctly"?
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  562. # [10:46] <smaug____> rniwa: I mean, I couldn't get any mutation records
  563. # [10:46] <rniwa> smaug____: oh i see.
  564. # [10:46] <smaug____> when observing documentfragment
  565. # [10:46] <rniwa> smaug____: it should be fixed.
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  567. # [10:46] <smaug____> and adding new child nodes
  568. # [10:46] <smaug____> ok
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  570. # [10:46] <rniwa> smaug____: http://www.chromium.org/getting-involved/download-chromium
  571. # [10:46] * smaug____ really needs to figure out how to get up-to-date C
  572. # [10:47] <smaug____> hey, that is what I need :)
  573. # [10:47] <smaug____> rniwa: thanks!
  574. # [10:47] <rniwa> smaug____: this is the latest trunk build
  575. # [10:47] <rniwa> of chromium
  576. # [10:47] <rniwa> smaug____: but which means it won't self-update :(
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  578. # [10:47] <smaug____> I don't care about that
  579. # [10:47] <smaug____> but I couldn't find that link to .zip file
  580. # [10:47] <rniwa> smaug____: if you want chromium equivalent of aurora, then go to http://www.chromium.org/getting-involved/dev-channel
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  582. # [10:48] <rniwa> smaug____: http://download-chromium.appspot.com/ ?
  583. # [10:48] <smaug____> yes
  584. # [10:48] <rniwa> smaug____: no link?
  585. # [10:48] <smaug____> er, I mean, there was .zip file somewhere
  586. # [10:48] <rniwa> smaug____: oh
  587. # [10:48] <smaug____> but couldn't find the page
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  589. # [10:48] <rniwa> :\
  590. # [10:49] <rniwa> smaug____: which OS do you use?
  591. # [10:49] <smaug____> linux
  592. # [10:49] <smaug____> fedora
  593. # [10:49] <rniwa> smaug____: x64?
  594. # [10:49] <smaug____> yup
  595. # [10:49] <rniwa> smaug____: http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/chromium-browser-snapshots/index.html?path=Linux_x64/
  596. # [10:49] <rniwa> smaug____: (warning takes forever to load)
  597. # [10:50] <rniwa> smaug____: http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/chromium-browser-snapshots/index.html?path=Linux_x64/139006/ is better :D
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  599. # [10:51] <smaug____> (all the browsers are getting so fat nowadays)
  600. # [10:52] <rniwa> smaug____: yeah i know :\
  601. # [10:52] <rniwa> smaug____: we need to get rid of all the features
  602. # [10:53] <zcorpan> first, get rid of this thing "HTML5"
  603. # [10:53] <smaug____> HTML2 was enough
  604. # [10:53] <smaug____> hmm, it had JS
  605. # [10:53] <smaug____> HTML1
  606. # [10:54] <smaug____> brb
  607. # [10:54] <zcorpan> responsive images? how about no images??
  608. # [10:54] <annevk> shit would be fast
  609. # [10:54] <rniwa> zcorpan: THAT SOLVES EVRYTHING :D
  610. # [10:55] <rniwa> zcorpan: welcome to my website: https://rniwa.com/
  611. # [10:55] <zcorpan> <!DOCTYPE html dir="ltr" lang="en-US">
  612. # [10:55] <rniwa> (except i still use images for math eqn :( )
  613. # [10:55] <rniwa> zcorpan: huh, that's weird.
  614. # [10:56] <rniwa> zcorpan: it seems like my DOCTYPE and html element got smashed together :\
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  616. # [10:56] <zcorpan> nice :)
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  619. # [10:58] * rniwa fixes the stupid bug
  620. # [10:58] <rniwa> fixed.
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  623. # [10:58] <rniwa> zcorpan: anyway, no image is the future.
  624. # [10:59] <rniwa> zcorpan: with inline svg and all that jazz, i don't know why we need images. did you also see github's latest ui change to use custom fonts for icons?
  625. # [10:59] <rniwa> zcorpan: https://github.com/blog/1135-the-making-of-octicons ?
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  649. # [11:54] <david_carlisle> rniwa: There is an alternative to images for math you know...
  650. # [11:55] <Ms2ger> No way!
  651. # [11:56] <jgraham> Pencil + paper + the postal service?
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  654. # [12:02] <zcorpan> use a custom font: one glyph for each formula you want to use
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  657. # [12:04] <jgraham> Ah, the github solution
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  661. # [12:11] <[tm]> david_carlisle: I removed the openmath stuff from the schema in my workspace but doing that makes your doc invalid
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  667. # [12:19] <david_carlisle> That's OK I was waiting to see exactly what went and what you're allowing and then I shall squirrel away the openmath in some plausibly valid way:-)
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  669. # [12:20] <david_carlisle> better do that now....
  670. # [12:22] <david_carlisle> [tm]: have you pushed that out yet? is saying my existing file is valid?
  671. # [12:23] <david_carlisle> [tm]: meant to say http://validator.w3.org/nu says my existing file is valid
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  673. # [12:24] <david_carlisle> sigh you did say "in my workspace " which might have been a clue it wasn't the public copy, if I could read:-)
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  676. # [12:33] <david_carlisle> [tm]: Can you try now, I just updated mathml.html
  677. # [12:34] * Quits: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  678. # [12:35] <smaug____> no, I don't understand the newline insertion
  679. # [12:35] <smaug____> hsivonen: ping
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  681. # [12:35] <jgraham> smaug____: What's the question?
  682. # [12:35] <smaug____> in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-end.html#html-fragment-serialization-algorithm
  683. # [12:36] <smaug____> why we want extra newline
  684. # [12:36] <smaug____> for pre and textare and listing
  685. # [12:36] <smaug____> textarea even
  686. # [12:36] <smaug____> or how should it work
  687. # [12:38] <Ms2ger> So if you parse <pre>\n\n
  688. # [12:38] <Ms2ger> You get a pre element with a text child whose data starts with one \n
  689. # [12:39] * Joins: [[zzz]] (~q@node-19rs.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net)
  690. # [12:39] <Ms2ger> And in that case, you want to serialize two \ns
  691. # [12:39] <smaug____> if I do document.body.appendChild(document.createElement("textarea")); document.body.firstChild.appendChild(document.createTextNode("\nhello")); document.body.innerHTML
  692. # [12:39] <smaug____> what should be the result?
  693. # [12:40] <Ms2ger> <textarea>\n\nhello</textarea>
  694. # [12:40] <Ms2ger> No?
  695. # [12:41] <smaug____> it should, but that is not what browser seem to do
  696. # [12:41] <smaug____> I mean, per spec it should
  697. # [12:41] <Ms2ger> That doesn't surprise me all that much :)
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  699. # [12:44] <jgraham> Anyone got any opinion on whether javascript URIs should be dereferenced in a sync way or async way?
  700. # [12:44] <jgraham> The spec seems to say async like other URIs
  701. # [12:44] <jgraham> and gecko seems to mostly do that
  702. # [12:45] <jgraham> But WebKit seems to make it sync in at least some cases
  703. # [12:45] <jgraham> Sync has the advantage of being less racy
  704. # [12:45] <jgraham> But the disadvantage of being more magic
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  708. # [12:46] <smaug____> wasn't javascript: sync in gecko and then changed to async
  709. # [12:46] <smaug____> bz would know that
  710. # [12:46] <jgraham> Maybe?
  711. # [12:46] * smaug____ checks the blame
  712. # [12:46] <jgraham> Inconveniently, bz isn't here
  713. # [12:47] <smaug____> it would be quite early for bz
  714. # [12:47] <jgraham> Or quite late :p
  715. # [12:48] <jgraham> In any case he doesn't use #whatwg
  716. # [12:48] <smaug____> jgraham: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=351633
  717. # [12:49] <jgraham> smaug____: Thanks
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  725. # [13:01] <AryehGregor> "The font element must override the color of any text decoration that spans the text of the element to the used value of the element's 'color' property. Note: This applies in all modes." zcorpan, if it applies in all modes, then why is it in a spec entitled "Quirks Mode"?
  726. # [13:02] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@93-103-104-107.dynamic.t-2.net) (Client Quit)
  727. # [13:02] <Ms2ger> At least Gecko still has it in quirks only
  728. # [13:05] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: it was quirks-only in the spec first but i changed it
  729. # [13:05] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: ideally all requirements in the quirks mode spec are moved to the "main" specs that define the features involved
  730. # [13:05] * jgraham hopes that note isn't normative
  731. # [13:05] <AryehGregor> I'm against any legacy HTML feature not aligning exactly with an equivalent CSS feature if we can possibly avoid it, so I vote that it be quirks-only. Does it really cause compat problems if it's not?
  732. # [13:05] <AryehGregor> jgraham, no -- every other thing in the spec says "In quirks mode, . . ."
  733. # [13:05] <AryehGregor> So the note is redundant.
  734. # [13:05] <jgraham> Good :)
  735. # [13:05] * jgraham would be very surprised if zcorpan had not got that right
  736. # [13:06] <Ms2ger> I object to it being quirks-only :)
  737. # [13:08] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: it applies in all modes in webkit, which suggests we can get away with it not being quirks-only :-)
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  739. # [13:09] <AryehGregor> Ah, I see -- having legacy features not match CSS is bad, but having differences between quirks and standards is worse.
  740. # [13:09] <AryehGregor> Okay, I changed my mind, I'm in favor of it being true in all modes.
  741. # [13:10] <zcorpan> it's a trade-off, of course. depends on how ugly the quirk is
  742. # [13:10] <zcorpan> for instance mozilla want window.foo to be limited to quirks mode
  743. # [13:10] <Ms2ger> Pff
  744. # [13:10] <zcorpan> or some mozilla people
  745. # [13:10] <zcorpan> i know y'all aren't one entity
  746. # [13:10] <Ms2ger> We can want all we want, but we gave up
  747. # [13:11] <Ms2ger> Thank you, Google!
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  751. # [13:16] <jgraham> So is the whole "Mozilla are individuals" thing supposed to make me imagine that Mozilla are starfleet and everyone else are the Borg? Should I imagine that Mozilla HQ is like the enterprise with Gary Kovacs as Picard and Brendan Eich as Geordi Laforge? When your senior crew, I mean staff, leave for Facebook do you talk about them being "assimilated"?
  752. # [13:17] <Ms2ger> You know what our meeting rooms are called, right?
  753. # [13:17] <jgraham> And, most importantly in this scenario, who is Wesley Crusher?
  754. # [13:17] <jgraham> Because they deserve to be punched
  755. # [13:18] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I assume given context that they must be star trek based, although iirc the smaller ones are internet memes
  756. # [13:18] <Ms2ger> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4gatutgsA1rrf1eeo1_400.jpg
  757. # [13:20] <jgraham> So basically, I *am* supposed to have this picture
  758. # [13:20] <Ms2ger> No comment
  759. # [13:20] * jgraham assumes Ms2ger is a random redshirt
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  762. # [13:24] <AryehGregor> Does anyone here have ready access to Word? If so, could you do a quick test for me?
  763. # [13:25] <AryehGregor> 1) Type "foo\nbar\nbaz". 2) Select all and make bold. 3) Delete the three letters "bar", so the middle line is empty. 4) Move the cursor someplace else, then move it back to the empty middle line. 5) Type "quz". 6) Is "quz" bold or not?
  764. # [13:25] <AryehGregor> (also tell me what version)
  765. # [13:25] <AryehGregor> (my wife has Word on her laptop, but I can't figure out how to turn the laptop on . . .)
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  770. # [13:40] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Look for a button on the outer casing?
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  772. # [13:40] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I see a power button! But pushing it doesn't seem to do anything . . .
  773. # [13:40] <AryehGregor> Thanks for the tip, though! I appreciate it.
  774. # [13:40] <Philip`> Is it plugged in?
  775. # [13:41] <AryehGregor> I mean, my grandfather would reportedly call my father sometimes to get a step-by-step walkthrough on how to turn his computer on.
  776. # [13:41] <AryehGregor> No reason for you to think I'm any different.
  777. # [13:41] <Philip`> Could you ask your wife?
  778. # [13:41] <AryehGregor> I will when she gets back.
  779. # [13:41] <AryehGregor> However, I was hoping that maybe someone here had a copy of Word handy, which might be faster.
  780. # [13:42] * Philip` doesn't :-(
  781. # [13:42] * Joins: danbri_ (~danbri@athedsl-4562155.home.otenet.gr)
  782. # [13:43] <Philip`> (It's strange being in a community where most people don't have access to probably the second most widely installed piece of software in the world)
  783. # [13:44] <jtcranmer> most people I know don't have it installed
  784. # [13:44] <asmodai> What about Word?
  785. # [13:44] <asmodai> I have 2010 installed
  786. # [13:44] <AryehGregor> [120525 14:16:48] <AryehGregor> Does anyone here have ready access to Word? If so, could you do a quick test for me?
  787. # [13:44] <AryehGregor> [120525 14:17:16] <AryehGregor> 1) Type "foo\nbar\nbaz". 2) Select all and make bold. 3) Delete the three letters "bar", so the middle line is empty. 4) Move the cursor someplace else, then move it back to the empty middle line. 5) Type "quz". 6) Is "quz" bold or not?
  788. # [13:44] <AryehGregor> [120525 14:17:33] <AryehGregor> (also tell me what version)
  789. # [13:44] <AryehGregor> asmodai, thanks. :)
  790. # [13:45] <asmodai> yes, bold
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  792. # [13:46] <asmodai> on 2010
  793. # [13:47] <asmodai> I think the begin and end mark for bold are at f and z, respectively, so deleting the middle text doesn't change that
  794. # [13:50] <AryehGregor> Right.
  795. # [13:53] <AryehGregor> asmodai, https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81656#c10
  796. # [13:53] <asmodai> Awesome
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  806. # [14:28] <annevk> Ms2ger: is there a way for Anolis to recognize [VERSION] and such but not complain about references being in a single section?
  807. # [14:29] <annevk> Ms2ger: also, having a flag for First Public Working Draft would be nice
  808. # [14:29] <annevk> although maybe it's not worth optimizing for
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  811. # [14:37] <gsnedders> annevk: What's different for FPWD?
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  816. # [14:40] <annevk> gsnedders: SotD contains "First Public Working Draft"
  817. # [14:40] <annevk> (yes it is insane)
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  822. # [14:51] <david_carlisle> fpwd don't have to have a "previous version" (obvious but true:-)
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  824. # [15:00] <odinho> gsnedders: Oh, that's sooo nice. http://ecma-international.org/ecma-262/5.1/ Didn't see it till now.
  825. # [15:01] <annevk> first have to see what they're releasing ES6 in
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  828. # [15:02] <annevk> it seems like this was a transformation done by someone, similarly to http://es5.github.com/
  829. # [15:02] <annevk> not done by the editors of the spec...
  830. # [15:03] <gsnedders> annevk: That's what was said in the email to es-discuss
  831. # [15:03] <gsnedders> The *big* deal here is that ECMA agreed to publish it.
  832. # [15:03] <odinho> It's on their site.
  833. # [15:03] <gsnedders> Still, in the event of any dispute, the PDF version is normative, which makes sense.
  834. # [15:03] <odinho> one small step ... etc
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  837. # [15:04] <gsnedders> (Reviewing a the transformation to HTML would be a lot of work to ensure there are no differences)
  838. # [15:04] <Ms2ger> annevk, doesn't --w3c-compat-substitutions get you that?
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  840. # [15:07] <annevk> Ms2ger: ah good to know
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  842. # [15:10] <matjas> annevk: it’s https://github.com/jorendorff/es-spec-html and it looks like this will be used for ES6 as well
  843. # [15:11] <matjas> i actually configured the ecma-international.org server the other day — they were sending the SVG figure as text/plain which broke things
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  845. # [15:12] <gsnedders> The interesting question is whether anyone can make a stylesheet for the HTML copy that meets the publishing format rules, of cover pages and such like.
  846. # [15:13] <Ms2ger> Well, the more interesting question is whether ECMA will ever make those rules available
  847. # [15:14] * Ms2ger gets his towel out
  848. # [15:14] <gsnedders> But that'd allow non-members to participate!
  849. # [15:15] <gsnedders> And how are we meant to stay financially viable unless members get something for their money!?
  850. # [15:15] <Ms2ger> In the case of ECMA?
  851. # [15:15] <Ms2ger> I suspect "not"
  852. # [15:16] <Philip`> gsnedders: Make everything free and open, but encourage bribery
  853. # [15:16] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Yeah, in the case of Ecma.
  854. # [15:17] <gsnedders> The only thing you get, in the case of ECMAScript, is to get to go to F2F meetings. That is literally the only gain of being an ECMA member.
  855. # [15:17] <jgraham> And you can submit tests
  856. # [15:18] <gsnedders> Though Mozilla people have in principle agreed to submit third-party tests.
  857. # [15:18] <gsnedders> Provided they meet the licensing requirements.
  858. # [15:18] <gsnedders> So even that gain is questionable.
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  908. # [16:44] <odinho> Who did/knows IDLharness?
  909. # [16:45] <jgraham> AryehGregor
  910. # [16:45] <odinho> Trying to make a interface test for IDB, but it's really not all roses.
  911. # [16:46] <odinho> AryehGregor: // XXX: [17:25:40.864] uncaught exception: Window implements IDBEnvironment, but one is undefined or not an interface
  912. # [16:46] <odinho> Window implements IDBEnvironment;
  913. # [16:46] <odinho> It doesn't like that. And I have an [NoInterfaceObject] interface IDBEnvironment { readonly attribute IDBFactory indexedDB; };
  914. # [16:47] <odinho> Tried removing [NoInterfaceObject] and other stuff, but I don't really know where to start at all.
  915. # [16:47] <AryehGregor> odinho, I'm about to run now -- could you send an e-mail? I should be able to look at it Monday (UTC+0300). At a glance, I'd guess the problem is that "Window" isn't defined -- you have to include the declarations of any interfaces you depend on too.
  916. # [16:48] <AryehGregor> You can include them in a fashion that they don't get tested themselves.
  917. # [16:48] <odinho> AryehGregor: Ah, I can look at that. It's a way I haven't explored, it might fix it, yea :]
  918. # [16:48] <odinho> AryehGregor: Thanks.
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  920. # [16:49] <AryehGregor> odinho, look here for inspiration: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/0bc4307c200a/tests/submission/AryehGregor/interfaces.html Note use of "add_untested_idls" -- this is to avoid double-testing the DOM IDLs, which the HTML IDLs depend on.
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  926. # [16:55] <odinho> AryehGregor: Wohoo! :D
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  972. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Yeah, responsive tables of that variety have been seriously discussed before, but didn't have sufficient momentum to get one of us to work on them.
  973. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: But the idea of pinning rows/columns is very cool and obviously useful. Mobile presentation of tables just drops the threshold for how large of a table it's useful on.
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  982. # [18:45] <Hixie> zcorpan: patches welcome. :-)
  983. # [18:46] <tantek> welcome back Hixie
  984. # [18:46] <Hixie> still on vacation til tuesday
  985. # [18:46] <Hixie> but back in the area and on the net
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  987. # [18:47] <tantek> good for you for taking vacation
  988. # [18:47] <Ms2ger> And bad for us :)
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  998. # [19:05] <Ms2ger> Anyone around here who cares about <script type>?
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  1001. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> "cares" in what sense?
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  1003. # [19:09] <Ms2ger> About the supported values
  1004. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> Nope.
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  1018. # [19:22] <Philip`> Is there any good reason why someone would send dozens of packets per second to a server's HTTPS port, for many hours, when that server doesn't have anything responding to that port?
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  1056. # [20:47] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: D'oh, I had a good snarky comment for that bug. Damn your quick AI reflexes!
  1057. # [20:48] <Ms2ger> :)
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  1059. # [20:51] <Hixie> which bug? :-)
  1060. # [20:51] <TabAtkins> A webapps bug.
  1061. # [20:51] <TabAtkins> Entitled: "Looking for the music I downloaded" or similar.
  1062. # [20:52] <Hixie> aah
  1063. # [20:52] <annevk> Ms2ger: is bz saying Gecko wants to implement the spec or something else?
  1064. # [20:52] <Ms2ger> The spec
  1065. # [20:52] <annevk> k
  1066. # [20:52] <Ms2ger> But since nobody else does, we'd like to hear if anybody objects
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  1072. # [21:15] <Ms2ger> Hmm, wasn't [ArrayClass] interface NodeList not going to fly?
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  1074. # [21:16] <annevk> I believe WebKit was trying
  1075. # [21:17] <Ms2ger> Also
  1076. # [21:17] <Ms2ger> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-dom-interfaces.html#htmlpropertiescollection-0
  1077. # [21:17] <annevk> and I believe they did run into issues, but not so much that people were admitting defeat...
  1078. # [21:17] <annevk> Ms2ger: ?
  1079. # [21:17] <Ms2ger> Would you consider the "represents" in the first paragraph there as overriding http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#represented-by-the-collection
  1080. # [21:17] <Ms2ger> ?
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  1083. # [21:18] <annevk> Ms2ger: no, but it's confusing
  1084. # [21:18] <annevk> Ms2ger: represents in DOM applies to collection; in HTML it applies to interface...
  1085. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> Yeah, I thought so
  1086. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> It confused bz as well
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  1092. # [21:36] <Ms2ger> ojan_away, s/you're feeling/your feeling/ :)
  1093. # [21:37] <annevk> btw
  1094. # [21:37] <annevk> did bz test
  1095. # [21:37] <annevk> language=javascript1.0
  1096. # [21:37] <Ms2ger> We're not touching language right now
  1097. # [21:38] <Ms2ger> Does anybody forward language to type like the spec claims?
  1098. # [21:38] <annevk> the whole point of the list in HTML is that it's the same for type and language
  1099. # [21:38] <annevk> I think we might
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  1101. # [21:38] <annevk> not sure though
  1102. # [21:39] <Ms2ger> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1541 suggests Opera doesn't
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  1138. # [23:14] <zewt> nothing speaks of competence in web design as much as phone number entry boxes that swallow keystrokes, breaking browser hotkeys
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  1142. # [23:18] <Hixie> am i missing something here? UTF-8 byte 0xED followed by two continuation bytes 0x80 0x80 is equivalent to U+D000 right?
  1143. # [23:19] <gsnedders> That's non-shortest form, no?
  1144. # [23:20] <Hixie> no?
  1145. # [23:20] <gsnedders> Yeah, that is U+D000, except 0xED 0x80 0x80 is not a valid UTF-8 string.
  1146. # [23:21] <Hixie> how can it be anything but shortest form if all the continuation bytes are 0x80 and the first byte has its second nibble set to anything but 0
  1147. # [23:21] <gsnedders> What, that's wrong.
  1148. # [23:21] <gsnedders> Ignore me, ignore me!
  1149. # [23:21] <Hixie> ok
  1150. # [23:21] <Hixie> phew
  1151. # [23:21] <gsnedders> I'm not even going to try and answer that.
  1152. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> Yes, it's U+d000
  1153. # [23:21] <Hixie> i'm confused enough already as it is :-P
  1154. # [23:21] * Parts: bga_ (bga@69.50.229.69)
  1155. # [23:22] <gsnedders> I seem to just be speaking nonsense so answering a harder question will likely result in more of that.
  1156. # [23:23] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Why do you ask?
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  1161. # [23:31] <jgraham> zewt: Half the fucking web thinks it's OK for "/" to be used for "focus site search box"
  1162. # [23:31] * manu-db is now known as manu
  1163. # [23:31] * manu is now known as manu-db
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  1165. # [23:38] <zewt> jgraham: this is worse--probably cancelling onkeydown if it's not 0-9
  1166. # [23:38] <zewt> which means every browser hotkey stops working (why browsers allow that I can't fathom)
  1167. # [23:38] <zewt> not to mention pasting, which is ... sort of basic for an "enter bank phone number" field
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  1171. # [23:47] <jamesr_> man i really wish you could declaratively say which keys you care about when registering a JS key listener
  1172. # [23:47] <jamesr_> so the browser could avoid having to bounce through the page and hope that it didn't fuck up the preventDefault()
  1173. # [23:47] <TabAtkins> a;lksdjf;al WANT IT SO BAD
  1174. # [23:48] <jamesr_> window.addEventListener("keydown", flobberize(), false, ['/']); ?
  1175. # [23:48] <jamesr_> s/flobberize()/flobberize/
  1176. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> Hey, you don't know. Maybe flobberize() returns a function.
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  1178. # [23:50] <jamesr_> i want it for all event types
  1179. # [23:51] <jamesr_> like mouse listeners should say that they only care about right click or whatever
  1180. # [23:51] <zewt> jamesr_: well, it doesn't really fit the dom event model, but could have element.addKeyListener(func, keySpecifier, capture) that's functionally equivalent to an event listener with a key check (except easier for the browser to optimize)
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  1182. # [23:51] <jamesr_> yeah, the model is you fire everything and the handler figures out if it cares or not
  1183. # [23:51] <jamesr_> which means if we want to optimize it in the browser we have to do it on an event type level
  1184. # [23:52] <zewt> in a sense make it so you can attach a sub-event-level filter to each event handler
  1185. # [23:52] <jamesr_> i.e. define a new set of events for each interaction
  1186. # [23:52] <jamesr_> even applying an after-the-fact filter might work
  1187. # [23:52] <zewt> elem.addEventListener("keydown", func, false, {filter: {keyCode: someKindOfFilterLanguage}})
  1188. # [23:53] <zewt> personally i think it's inefficient but mostly only academically, so I'm not too bothered by it
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  1190. # [23:54] <jamesr_> it's not quite theoretical for things like pagedown
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  1192. # [23:54] <jamesr_> we would really like to scroll the page when you hit page down without having to wait for the thread running JS/DOM/etc
  1193. # [23:55] <jamesr_> but if the page listens to key events, we dunno if it's going to preventDefault() the pagedown
  1194. # [23:55] <jamesr_> if the page really just wants to hijack '/' - merits of doing that aside - it'd help us out to know that in the browser
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  1196. # [23:57] <rafaelw_> Ms2ger: question for you about your Document.parse() WebKit patch comments....
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  1198. # [23:58] <jwalden> rafaelw_: gone
  1199. # [23:58] <jwalden> (nn, to be precise)
  1200. # [23:58] <rafaelw_> ah. thanks.
  1201. # [23:58] <jamesr_> it's probably just a pipe dream though :(
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  1204. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> I have no idea why you think it's a pipe dream.
  1205. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> People have watned it for years, just no one's cared enough to make it happen.
  1206. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> MAKE IT HAPPEN.
  1207. # [23:59] <zewt> jamesr_: if you can think of a static filter language that would work...
  1208. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> Easy.
  1209. # [23:59] <zewt> i mean, i know of some, like mongodb's queries, but it's not the cleanest
  1210. # [23:59] <jamesr_> zewt, that's one tricky part of the problem
  1211. # [23:59] <jamesr_> list of keycodes?
  1212. # [23:59] <zewt> eg. {$or: [{keyCode: 1}, {keyCode: 2}]}
  1213. # [23:59] <zewt> i mean, to be generic for any event
  1214. # Session Close: Sat May 26 00:00:01 2012

The end :)