/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-06-12 / end

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  88. # [01:21] <Hixie> MikeSmith: cvs being slow again
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  96. # [01:42] <Hixie> wait, hober, your CP is actually just reverting the revert? i.e. it makes the whatwg spec and the w3c spec converge?
  97. # [01:43] <Hixie> that makes this thread even more ridiculous
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  135. # [03:10] <rniwa> Hixie: yt?
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  182. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> Hixie: can you please check again and see if cvs is still slow for you?
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  242. # [08:07] <annevk> Hixie: your unrestricted double change looks wrong
  243. # [08:08] <annevk> Hixie: you removed the generic NaN/Inifity language and then changed double to unrestricted double (unrestricted double is the one that allows NaN and such)
  244. # [08:09] <Hixie> i only changed it for ones where the previous language didn't apply
  245. # [08:09] <Hixie> at least, that was my intent
  246. # [08:09] * annevk looks again
  247. # [08:12] <annevk> Hixie: e.g. the scale() method on <canvas> has no language for it
  248. # [08:13] <annevk> Hixie: setLineDash does have language for it, but it seems better if we make that double
  249. # [08:13] <annevk> same for globalAlpha, if that's still feasible
  250. # [08:13] <annevk> and similar methods
  251. # [08:15] <Hixie> all the canvas ones have language because there's the default language, no?
  252. # [08:15] <Hixie> oh, i guess methods don't
  253. # [08:15] <Hixie> but for the transforms there's no need for language
  254. # [08:15] <Hixie> you just do the maths with infinities
  255. # [08:15] <Hixie> there's separate language for problematic transforms iirc
  256. # [08:16] <Hixie> i guess we should add text for NaNs for scale()
  257. # [08:16] <annevk> I went through the spec for Infinity and missed that then...
  258. # [08:17] <annevk> I only see it for linedash, gradients and globalAlpha
  259. # [08:17] <annevk> but maybe it does not need to be explicitly mentioned?
  260. # [08:18] <Hixie> filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17468 for transforms
  261. # [08:18] <Hixie> please file other bugs for others
  262. # [08:18] <Hixie> gotta go
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  264. # [08:19] <annevk> kk
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  267. # [08:38] <annevk> so we're the Web Notification WG with http://www.w3.org/2010/web-notifications/ as home page
  268. # [08:38] <annevk> :)
  269. # [08:42] <annevk> jgraham: where is that email from bz to public-html?
  270. # [08:42] <annevk> jgraham: oh last month
  271. # [08:43] <annevk> jgraham: but that one cc'd whatwg
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  330. # [10:36] <zcorpan> Hixie: the sync image load uses the state of the crossorigin attribute, but the potentially CORS-enabled fetch algorithm ignores the state of that attribute when the URL is same-origin
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  339. # [11:29] <annevk> matjas: I guess theoretically you could add Registry-HTTP-headers to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Category:Registries
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  341. # [11:29] <annevk> matjas: we haven't really invested effort into taking over that IANA stuff however
  342. # [11:30] <annevk> matjas: you could also try registering the header through IANA, but that process sucks balls
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  344. # [11:30] <matjas> annevk: yeah, the latter option doesn’t sound like fun
  345. # [11:30] <annevk> (which is why everyone keeps minting X- prefixed headers instead; joy)
  346. # [11:31] <matjas> facebook spam: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Registry-HTTP-headers (by User:Kirayamato)
  347. # [11:31] <annevk> whoa
  348. # [11:33] <annevk> nuked
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  360. # [11:58] <matjas> annevk: so can I just add an entry for X-UA-Compatible to the Registry-HTTP-headers page, or what?
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  362. # [12:02] <annevk> well, 1) although IANA sucks our alternative has not really proved successful thus far (mostly due to lack of effort I think) 2) the HTML specification would need to be updated either way for the registration procedure 3) it would be interesting to hear what hsivonen_ has to say about this issue 4) you could start by adding it to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/PragmaExtensions and mention it is widely used but you cannot be bothered to deal with the
  363. # [12:02] <annevk> pain that is IETF registration procedures for IANA registration
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  365. # [12:07] <matjas> annevk: ok, done: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/PragmaExtensions I’ll await hsivonen_’s feedback before I submit a spec “bug”
  366. # [12:11] <karlcow> there is an RFC against the proliferation of X-headers
  367. # [12:11] <karlcow> it is a similar story than and -vendor- extensions
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  382. # [12:54] <sm0lm> Anyone know where the source code of the OPAL selectoracle can be obtained?
  383. # [12:56] <Stevef> [tm]: where are you at brotherman?
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  392. # [13:14] <jgraham> Hixie: (mail sent)
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  394. # [13:14] <jgraham> Also, I added some more tests for navigation in beforeunload and pagehide, which seem to work the same as in unload
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  404. # [13:51] <sm0lm> Anyone know where the source code of the OPAL selectoracle can be obtained?
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  408. # [14:03] <annevk> is http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/netwerk/base/src/nsStandardURL.cpp Gecko's URL implementation?
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  430. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> annevk: about the URL spec, Chris Weber has aggregated a bunch of tests at https://github.com/cweb/iri-tests
  431. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> and he has a report of some results at https://github.com/cweb/iri-tests/blob/master/results/uri-iri-results.xls
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  434. # [15:02] <annevk> MikeSmith: reading that it sounds like he made the WebKit tests worse...
  435. # [15:02] <MikeSmith> oh
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  437. # [15:02] <MikeSmith> how so?
  438. # [15:03] <annevk> removed e.g. <base> information
  439. # [15:03] <annevk> do you have pointers to Adam's original tests?
  440. # [15:04] <annevk> https://github.com/abarth/url-spec I guess
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  444. # [15:21] <annevk> MikeSmith: pubrules throws a fit
  445. # [15:21] <MikeSmith> oh
  446. # [15:21] <MikeSmith> I will get those fixed
  447. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> and I will look from Adam's tests right now
  448. # [15:22] <annevk> I might have made a typo that threw pubrules into a fit
  449. # [15:23] <annevk> yeah was a typo
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  452. # [15:27] <annevk> MikeSmith: so yeah, my plan is to work on URLs now
  453. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> ok
  454. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> the Webkit tests are at http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/fast/url I think
  455. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> not sure if those are essentially the same as Adam's github ones or not
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  458. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> anyway, I will help with URLs as well
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  464. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> annevk: about Notifications
  465. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/notifications/raw-file/tip/TR.html is what we want to publish, right?
  466. # [15:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah
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  468. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> OK
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  470. # [15:39] <annevk> is there a problem?
  471. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> I will copy that to the dated TR URL
  472. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> no
  473. # [15:39] <annevk> k
  474. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> just in your message to Denis, you had mentioned http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/notifications/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  475. # [15:41] <annevk> ah yeah, I did not have the TR copy at that point
  476. # [15:41] <annevk> just the editor's draft
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  481. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> annevk: OK, I have it up at http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-notifications-20120614/
  482. # [16:03] <annevk> thanks
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  484. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> and I'll work with Denis if anything more needs fixing for pubrules or whatever
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  490. # [16:09] <annevk> Hixie: I want to change the email address for my account on the HTML spec
  491. # [16:09] <annevk> Hixie: to annevk@annevk.nl
  492. # [16:12] <annevk> MikeSmith: IRI tests look nice too though
  493. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> yeah?
  494. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> I guess Chris did all those
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  496. # [16:12] <annevk> MikeSmith: I was thinking of writing a URL parser in JavaScript and then using tests to compare it with browsers
  497. # [16:13] <annevk> MikeSmith: and then writing a spec based on the structure of that URL parser
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  499. # [16:14] <annevk> MikeSmith: the current spec suffers from quite a few problems; e.g. "s<:s" is a relative URL, not a URL whose scheme is "s<"
  500. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> oh
  501. # [16:14] <annevk> so starting anew is probably best
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  503. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> annevk: you might want to look at http://medialize.github.com/URI.js/ to see if you can repurpose some of it or get some ideas from it
  504. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> from Rodney Rehm
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  506. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/medialize/URI.js
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  508. # [16:21] <annevk> volkmar: "We are willing to discuss any detail of the API as long as we do not include any feature we believe are out of scope." seems somewhat poorly worded
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  510. # [16:22] <annevk> MikeSmith: doesn't look that usable
  511. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> OK
  512. # [16:22] <volkmar> annevk: it might be indeed
  513. # [16:22] <annevk> but I should indeed look around first
  514. # [16:24] <volkmar> annevk: but I believe what I meant is undertandable (at least I hope)
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  517. # [16:26] <annevk> volkmar: it seems kind of poor form to restrict the discussion to what you believe it should be restricted to
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  524. # [16:39] <AryehGregor> annevk, [120612 17:30:48] <NeilAway> AryehGregor: I think it's Gecko's only URL type, yes, but we have several URI implementations too ;-)
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  526. # [16:40] <annevk> AryehGregor: :(
  527. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> Are you surprised?
  528. # [16:41] <annevk> I blame the IETF
  529. # [16:41] * AryehGregor blames Netscape
  530. # [16:41] <volkmar> annevk: it's indeed poorly worded, we doesn't want to block the discussion
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  533. # [16:41] <volkmar> the idea is much more that unless proven useful, we don't want to handle those use cases
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  535. # [16:42] <annevk> okay, cool
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  556. # [16:51] <annevk> MikeSmith: why do backreferences not work in the URL spec?
  557. # [16:51] <MikeSmith> annevk: probably because I muffed something up
  558. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> I'll take a look right now
  559. # [16:53] <MikeSmith> "Uncaught TypeError: Object function Object() { [native code] } has no method 'push' dfn.js:26"
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  566. # [17:06] <gsnedders> So, #whatwg, what should be done with Error.stack, given sites rely upon different JS engines having different strings?
  567. # [17:07] <Philip`> Add Error.stdStack
  568. # [17:07] <Philip`> which is standardised between browsers
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  570. # [17:08] <zcorpan> gsnedders: [citation needed]
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  572. # [17:08] <Philip`> (and which is much more convenient to use, e.g. not requiring you to do string parsing to extract data from it)
  573. # [17:08] <Philip`> (so that most people will start using that instead of Error.stack, and then nobody will care that Error.stack is inconsistently implemented)
  574. # [17:09] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Which part?
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  576. # [17:10] <gsnedders> On the whole it looks like Error.stack won't be spec'd and a new API introduced that is sane
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  580. # [17:12] <annevk> gsnedders: not sure what you want #whatwg to do here
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  582. # [17:14] <zcorpan> gsnedders: what sites?
  583. # [17:19] <gsnedders> annevk: Is creating a new API the right way to go, or should most/all vendors break sites?
  584. # [17:20] <zewt> (the latter sounds unlikely)
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  586. # [17:20] <zewt> little's more annoying than not being able to fix a bug because somebody broke your bug reporting :)
  587. # [17:21] <annevk> gsnedders: both sound annoying :)
  588. # [17:22] <zewt> creating a non-crappy API and ignoring the completely uninteroperable ones in there now seems the way to go
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  600. # [17:38] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, that implies that there will indefinitely be a compat constraint on browsers that they have to implement the old .stack in whatever manner the legacy pages expect, but it won't be documented. That sounds like a very bad idea.
  601. # [17:40] <jgraham> AryehGregor: The compat constraint is something like "if you have the string 'webkit' in your UA, you must return a string formated like X. Otherwise, if you have the string 'gecko' in your UA header, you must return a string formatted like Y, otherwise..."
  602. # [17:41] <jgraham> (except probably more complex than that)
  603. # [17:41] <AryehGregor> jgraham, well, if that's really needed for site compat and people aren't willing to deploy site-specific workarounds, then that needs to be specced. You can't just have all these pages break in some random new browser that's written per spec.
  604. # [17:41] <AryehGregor> Better would be if browsers hacked around known bad pages to reduce compat impact enough that they could change to match the standard.
  605. # [17:42] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: the sites already do UA sniffing, so they're already broken in random new browsers.
  606. # [17:42] <zewt> can't blame pages for this, heh
  607. # [17:42] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, right, so new browsers have to clone an existing UA string, which is what they do in real life.
  608. # [17:42] <jgraham> gsnedders: Unless a random new browser implemented some other browser's US header exactly
  609. # [17:42] <AryehGregor> But they still need to know how to behave.
  610. # [17:42] <jgraham> *UA
  611. # [17:42] <AryehGregor> Given the UA string they picked.
  612. # [17:43] <gsnedders> Also it's unclear what to do given strict-mode and tail call optimization.
  613. # [17:43] <gsnedders> And overspecification could make TCO impossible, which would be bad.
  614. # [17:43] <jgraham> (it may not even be UA string based sniffing of course)
  615. # [17:43] <zewt> gsnedders: specify how to expose stack frames, but not what the stack frames will be (inlining could also cause frames to disappear, though that can probably be hidden by implementations with some effort)
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  629. # [17:54] <annevk> meh
  630. # [17:54] <annevk> test://test.com/
  631. # [17:54] <annevk> does this have a host or not?
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  633. # [17:55] <zcorpan> "Nobody; OK to take it and work on it"
  634. # [17:55] <annevk> .host returns "" in Opera/Firefox; test.com in Safari
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  636. # [17:56] <zewt> annevk: doesn't the former imply that you could never add new schemes without breaking compatibility? (for what that's worth--not like the addition of a new protocol itself wouldn't have bigger side-effects)
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  640. # [18:03] <annevk> zewt: seems like it has not been a problem in practice when we added ws: and wss:
  641. # [18:04] <Ms2ger> Am I alone in reading "twss"?
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  648. # [18:10] <zcorpan> annevk: ws: and wss: aren't supported in <a href> so the URL decomposition attributes should treat it as an unsupported scheme, i think
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  651. # [18:14] <Ms2ger> Whoa, fantasai *and* Hixie on a replying spree is no good for my inbox
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  654. # [18:16] <AryehGregor> Isn't it great how we have a generic URL standard so that you can parse URLs without having to know scheme-specific details?
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  661. # [18:23] <jgraham> pimpmyspec.net will be down for a while
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  666. # [18:25] <zewt> for additional pimping?
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  729. # [20:25] <Ms2ger> ojan, I don't care much, but I don't think moving mailing lists gains us much
  730. # [20:26] <ojan> Ms2ger: yeah, maybe not. i find it frustrating that in practice i need to check both mailing lists anyways because enough threads are incorrectly started on www-dom
  731. # [20:26] <Ms2ger> correctly, you mean ;)
  732. # [20:27] <ojan> lol, yeah
  733. # [20:27] <Ms2ger> I bet Björn will have a say about it
  734. # [20:27] <ojan> Ms2ger: i'm not gonna make a big deal of this, but if everyone agrees, then there's no harm
  735. # [20:27] <ojan> i certainly don't intend to have a long dicussion about this
  736. # [20:28] <Ms2ger> If you want to have a long discussion about it, have it over at public-html? :)
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  739. # [20:33] * Ms2ger hadn't seen someone use "L.S." for a while
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  741. # [20:36] <TabAtkins_> What's that mean?
  742. # [20:38] <Ms2ger> It's Latin, you won't like it
  743. # [20:40] <TabAtkins_> Hey, I got nothing against Latin itself. Just against the ridiculous attachment that some grammar assholes from a century ago had to it.
  744. # [20:41] <hober> TabAtkins_: you are tilting at windmills. English is weird. Get over it.
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  747. # [20:43] <TabAtkins_> Hey, the faux-latin bullshit started because of people tilting at windmills. ^_^
  748. # [20:43] <gsnedders> TabAtkins_: On the other hand, there is a lot of English which has Romance influence, such as bases. ^_^
  749. # [20:44] <TabAtkins_> English stole tons of words from romance languages, yeah. But not its grammar.
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  752. # [20:45] <Ms2ger> Did you mean "not it's grammar"?
  753. # [20:45] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: the Genitive form of it is its.
  754. # [20:46] <Ms2ger> Troll succeeded
  755. # [20:46] <gsnedders> TabAtkins_: Where does grammar end and lexis begin?
  756. # [20:46] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: I thought that was probably what you were doing.
  757. # [20:47] <gsnedders> You can trivially argue that closed-word classes (pronouns, for example) are grammatical.
  758. # [20:47] <TabAtkins_> gsnedders: I'm only a casual linguist on the internet, so I'm not prepared to argue to that level of precision.
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  760. # [20:49] <gsnedders> TabAtkins_: Certainly English grammar has to some extent been influenced by Latin (which isn't that surprising, given English's status for the most of the first two millenia)
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  763. # [20:50] <Philip`> Did you mean "millennia"?
  764. # [20:51] <gsnedders> Yes.
  765. # [20:52] <gsnedders> (Though yes, the influence on the lexis was far greater)
  766. # [20:52] <gsnedders> Today's fun fact: "they" and "them" are derived from Old Norse and not Old English.
  767. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, "bases" is Greek, not Romance.
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  769. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> Oh, it's both.
  770. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
  771. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> Although it apparently didn't enter English through Romance languages -- it came into Middle English through Latin directly, according to my dictionary.
  772. # [20:54] <Philip`> ("bases" as in plural of "base" or of "basis"?)
  773. # [20:54] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Very little came from Greek directly.
  774. # [20:55] <gsnedders> Philip`: basis
  775. # [20:55] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: And Latin is a Romance language.
  776. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, not according to Wikipedia!
  777. # [20:56] <Ms2ger> Fix Wikipedia!
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  779. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> "The internal classification of the Romance languages is a complex and sometimes controversial topic which may not have a unique answer. Several classifications have been proposed, based on different criteria."
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  783. # [21:04] <gsnedders> I'd say the prototype of a language group is part of the group, *shrugs*.
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  800. # [21:41] <jgraham> Italian must be a romance language, otherwise how would you explain Berlusconi
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  803. # [21:43] <sm0lm> when are media fragment uris set to get widespread support?
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  821. # [21:56] <jgraham> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tbray-http-legally-restricted-status-00
  822. # [21:58] <micheil> jgraham: how do I say that there's an issue in that document?
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  824. # [21:59] <micheil> quoting: "The restrictions typically most directly affect the".. make's little sense
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  827. # [22:02] <jgraham> micheil: I'm not really sure. Perhaps the link marked "email" at the top of the document? Otherwise work out which WG is working on it
  828. # [22:02] <micheil> :/
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  899. # Session Close: Wed Jun 13 00:00:01 2012

The end :)