/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-06-15 / end

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  110. # [04:37] <quiznilo> how long do you guess IETC will upgrade 6455 to a draft standard?
  111. # [04:37] <quiznilo> *will it take
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  114. # [04:44] <quiznilo> nevermind, I see here there are no more 'draft standards' by rfc 6410
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  157. # [08:10] <MikeSmith> if I want to cache binary objects on the client side for use in a Web app, what should I use?
  158. # [08:10] <MikeSmith> indexed DB?
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  166. # [08:35] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, how many, and how big?
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  171. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: a few dozen and around 500K or so I guess
  172. # [08:39] <AryehGregor> Around 500K each?
  173. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> up to 500K I gues
  174. # [08:39] <AryehGregor> Then IDB is probably your only real choice, I guess.
  175. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> OK
  176. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> I know there's the File System API
  177. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> but it is seeming like that might not get implemented across browsrs
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  222. # [10:10] <jgraham> hsivonen: So, my feeling is that window.stop should probably abort the parser, but still go through The End in the normal way. Doesn't match Gecko or WebKit but almost matches Opera (and hopefully no one really relies on this behaviour)
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  236. # [10:42] <zcorpan> should the html spec be changed to not suggest vendor prefixes?
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  240. # [10:49] <niloy> does anyone know how to access a spdy enabled website, I tried the URL "spdy://google.co.in" but chrome just did a search on it
  241. # [10:50] <annevk> zcorpan: they have not been that harmful for HTML thus far, mostly due to them not being used
  242. # [10:51] <annevk> zcorpan: actually the one instance where they have (fullscreen) it has been harmful...
  243. # [10:51] <jgraham> annevk: "yes" was the shorter version of that answer
  244. # [10:52] <annevk> jgraham: hindsight
  245. # [10:52] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
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  248. # [10:59] <doublec> niloy: just accessing it normally with http://... should use spdy if the website supports it
  249. # [11:07] <niloy> doublec, thanks
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  252. # [11:18] <annevk> for http://[12::]:12 Gecko omits [ and ] for .host
  253. # [11:18] <annevk> for .hostname sorry
  254. # [11:18] <annevk> no other browser does that
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  256. # [11:20] <annevk> all these parsers are buggy as hell
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  291. # [13:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm here now
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  300. # [13:23] <annevk> are there any URLs that do not have an authority component but do have a path component?
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  308. # [13:37] <zcorpan> about:blank?
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  315. # [13:39] <zcorpan> javascript:...
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  323. # [13:52] <annevk> zcorpan: afaik those don't have a path component because e.g. javascript:"/../" does not get normalized
  324. # [13:57] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
  325. # [13:57] <AryehGregor> annevk, file://?
  326. # [13:58] * Joins: jryans (~jryans@office.massrel.com)
  327. # [13:58] <annevk> AryehGregor: doesn't that have an implied authority component of localhost in most browsers?
  328. # [13:58] <annevk> (hence the triple slash)
  329. # [13:58] <AryehGregor> Um, I dunno. Syntactically it has no authority component.
  330. # [13:59] <annevk> yes it does
  331. # [13:59] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  332. # [14:00] <AryehGregor> RFC 3986 doesn't allow an empty authority component, AFAICT.
  333. # [14:01] <annevk> yes
  334. # [14:01] <annevk> host -> reg-name -> *( unreserved / pct-encoded / sub-delims ) -> allows nothing
  335. # [14:02] <AryehGregor> Okay, I guess.
  336. # [14:02] <annevk> not that RFC 3986 is followed much
  337. # [14:03] <annevk> I'm sketching a new parser
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  339. # [14:08] <matjas> Ms2ger, jgraham: would you mind giving some feedback on http://mathias.html5.org/tests/html/named-character-references/w3c/? trying to use the test harness correctly
  340. # [14:08] <matjas> is is ok like that, or would you prefer separate test() calls for each test?
  341. # [14:09] <Ms2ger> Mm.. Maybe
  342. # [14:09] <Ms2ger> With one test, you stop at the first failure
  343. # [14:10] <Ms2ger> So I guess if there are still browsers that fail anything there, a test() per entity would be better
  344. # [14:10] <annevk> put sketch for URL parser online http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/URL
  345. # [14:11] * Joins: leeight__ (~leeight@116.227.91.62)
  346. # [14:11] <annevk> [tm]: ^^
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  348. # [14:15] <zcorpan> annevk: some browsers expose .pathname for those urls, though
  349. # [14:16] * Joins: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@host-89-242-53-166.as13285.net)
  350. # [14:16] <annevk> zcorpan: yeah, even query
  351. # [14:16] <annevk> zcorpan: not sure that makes a lot of sense, but we could reuse .pathname to store the data I guess
  352. # [14:17] <zcorpan> matjas: one test() per test is better. there's a convenience function called generate_tests() or some such, though i haven't used it myself
  353. # [14:17] <matjas> zcorpan: the source said generate_tests() might be removed in the future, so i got scared
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  355. # [14:18] <zcorpan> matjas: heh, ok. the other thing still applies though :-)
  356. # [14:18] <matjas> Ms2ger, zcorpan: thanks, on it!
  357. # [14:19] <zcorpan> general guideline: failing one test() shouldn't change the total number of tests
  358. # [14:20] <jgraham> matjas: generate_tests is pretty safe I would say
  359. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> matjas, generate_tests is deprecated-ish :)
  360. # [14:20] <jgraham> Heh
  361. # [14:20] <matjas> …
  362. # [14:20] <matjas> what just happened
  363. # [14:20] <jgraham> Well it can be problematic
  364. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> Unless jgraham removes that comment
  365. # [14:20] <jgraham> If you have an exception in the code that is generating the tests, you suddenly get 0 tests
  366. # [14:21] <matjas> so, like this? http://mathias.html5.org/tests/html/named-character-references/w3c/ what’s with the metadata warning?
  367. # [14:21] <zcorpan> jgraham: but that'd apply for a custom-written test generator equally, right?
  368. # [14:21] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yes
  369. # [14:21] <jgraham> matjas: plinss being over0enthusiastic
  370. # [14:22] <matjas> jgraham: ok, i’ll just ignore it then. do the tests look ok otherwise?
  371. # [14:23] <zcorpan> matjas: looks ok from a quick look
  372. # [14:24] <jgraham> I don't see anything wrong at a glance.
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  374. # [14:25] <matjas> ok, thanks for taking a look
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  376. # [14:26] <[tm]> xslt2 implemented in Javascript, friends
  377. # [14:27] <[tm]> performantly
  378. # [14:27] * Quits: hij1nx (~hij1nx@77-253-8-220.adsl.inetia.pl) (Quit: hij1nx)
  379. # [14:27] <zcorpan> now implement javascript in xslt2 in javascript
  380. # [14:27] <[tm]> hahaha
  381. # [14:27] <zcorpan> performantly
  382. # [14:28] <[tm]> this odds a sure sign of the apocolypse
  383. # [14:28] * Joins: icaaq (~Adium@c-3fa8e455.68-1076-74657210.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  384. # [14:29] <[tm]> i would like to see the code
  385. # [14:29] <[tm]> wait no i really wouldn't
  386. # [14:30] <zcorpan> hey icaaq
  387. # [14:30] <[tm]> next we implement visual basic in js
  388. # [14:30] <icaaq> zcorpan: hey!
  389. # [14:30] <Ms2ger> [tm], naaah
  390. # [14:30] <Ms2ger> Visual Basic in js-on-xslt-on-js
  391. # [14:30] <zcorpan> icaaq: how's things?
  392. # [14:30] * Joins: yodasw16 (~dgillhesp@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com)
  393. # [14:31] <icaaq> zcorpan: great! tgif. long time since I was in this channel :) you?
  394. # [14:32] <zcorpan> icaaq: good good. i'm still here regularly :-)
  395. # [14:34] <icaaq> zcorpan: :) I heard chaals is leaving opera
  396. # [14:34] * Quits: nessy1 (~Adium@124-169-7-38.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  397. # [14:34] <zcorpan> yeah
  398. # [14:38] <[tm]> they are hiring Assa Dotzler to replace chaals
  399. # [14:38] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@ofo81.internetdsl.tpnet.pl)
  400. # [14:38] <Ms2ger> Asa*
  401. # [14:38] <Ms2ger> And my condolences
  402. # [14:38] <icaaq> really?
  403. # [14:38] <zcorpan> icaaq: don't pay attention to these guys :-P
  404. # [14:38] <Ms2ger> Friday night for [tm]
  405. # [14:39] <Ms2ger> And, well, [tm]
  406. # [14:39] <annevk> also, Ms2ger
  407. # [14:39] <annevk> known troll
  408. # [14:39] <icaaq> haha
  409. # [14:39] <Ms2ger> Yw
  410. # [14:40] <[tm]> every night is Friday night for Mikey
  411. # [14:40] <annevk> Lachy: http://dbaron.org/css/intrinsic/
  412. # [14:40] <Lachy> annevk, thanks. I found that already
  413. # [14:41] <annevk> I was going to update the wiki, but it eh is down?
  414. # [14:41] <Lachy> but stig wants me to pick something related to docxs instead of layout
  415. # [14:41] <Lachy> wiki works for me
  416. # [14:42] * zcorpan wonders what Lachy and annevk are discussing
  417. # [14:42] <Lachy> zcorpan, I'm being assigned to more spec work. I need to find a spec that needs working on.
  418. # [14:43] <zcorpan> ah. nice!
  419. # [14:43] <zcorpan> going into css land?
  420. # [14:43] <Lachy> current options now include DOM Events and WebECMAScript stuff documented in the wiki.
  421. # [14:43] <Ms2ger> Apparently not
  422. # [14:44] <zcorpan> ok
  423. # [14:45] <annevk> Lachy: could talk to olak as well
  424. # [14:45] <annevk> Lachy: sitecompat usually means a ton of spec issues somewhere
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  426. # [14:46] * annevk updated http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Specs_todo#CSS
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  430. # [15:00] <matjas> can i submit this test somewhere? http://mathias.html5.org/tests/javascript/identifiers/
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  432. # [15:01] <Ms2ger> To ECMA? No
  433. # [15:02] <Ms2ger> They don't accept tests unless you work for a member company
  434. # [15:05] <matjas> and the W3C only accepts HTML/CSS tests, right?
  435. # [15:06] <Ms2ger> I guess
  436. # [15:06] <annevk> matjas: well, they typically accept tests for specs
  437. # [15:06] <Ms2ger> I'd take them ;)
  438. # [15:06] <annevk> matjas: but I think if you talk to plh / mike you can get a place for JavaScript tests
  439. # [15:07] <matjas> the above test tests for ECMAScript 5.1 + Unicode 6.1 + http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_ECMAScript#Identifiers
  440. # [15:07] <matjas> so it’s more of a compatibility tests than anything else
  441. # [15:08] <matjas> as the ES spec allows engines to use Unicode 3 (and doesn’t require the Web ECMAScript exception for identifiers)
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  444. # [15:09] * matjas looks at [tm]
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  452. # [15:20] <[tm]> matjas: we shall make a place for js tests
  453. # [15:21] <[tm]> but out will have to
  454. # [15:21] <[tm]> will have to wait till really next week
  455. # [15:21] <[tm]> because the maker OS deep i
  456. # [15:22] <[tm]> is deep into his 7th chu-hai
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  458. # [15:25] <jgraham> matjas: Tack för testerna :)
  459. # [15:26] <matjas> jgraham: du är välkommen! more useful ones coming
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  461. # [15:27] <matjas> (blame Google Translate if that came out wrong)
  462. # [15:27] <icaaq> what's up with the swedish? :)
  463. # [15:28] <matjas> [tm]: deal
  464. # [15:29] <hasather> matjas: "Var så god" would've been correct :) "Välkommen" is "welcome" as in the greeting.
  465. # [15:29] <jgraham> icaaq: Varför inte Svenska? (actually I don't really know. Maybe I just feel bad that I know so little Swedish after living here for so long)
  466. # [15:29] <icaaq> du bor i sverige? var :)
  467. # [15:30] * matjas sets lang=en
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  469. # [15:31] <jgraham> I Linköping
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  471. # [15:32] <jgraham> matjas: Sorry, I didn't mean to waken all the Swedes ;)
  472. # [15:32] <icaaq> ahh ok. Jag bor i Mora. *back to english*
  473. # [15:33] <icaaq> :)
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  477. # [15:39] <[tm]> jag förstår inte
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  483. # [15:52] <Ms2ger> [tm], also webgl, please :)
  484. # [15:54] <[tm]> hai
  485. # [15:57] <annevk> so yeah, I'm no longer the editor of CSSOM View
  486. # [15:57] <annevk> but it seems nobody else is either
  487. # [15:57] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/log/1693d8c293a4/cssom-view/Overview.src.html
  488. # [15:58] <annevk> :/
  489. # [16:00] * Quits: ivan\ (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  490. # [16:00] <[tm]> annevk: hahaha
  491. # [16:00] <[tm]> real leadership going on over there
  492. # [16:01] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com)
  493. # [16:01] <[tm]> great example to all of us of how to run things
  494. # [16:02] <[tm]> crazy plus crazy
  495. # [16:03] <[tm]> taking out to
  496. # [16:03] <[tm]> taking it to a whole nothet
  497. # [16:03] <[tm]> nother level
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  500. # [16:14] <[tm]> ah Julian is such a treasure
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  503. # [16:16] <[tm]> annevk: the answer is that if he wants that kind of spec, he can write one
  504. # [16:16] <[tm]> but he's not ever going to do that of course
  505. # [16:17] <annevk> I doubt that is feasible too
  506. # [16:17] <[tm]> far easier to just forever play guardian of purity from the sidelines
  507. # [16:17] <annevk> it's kind of hard to say conclusively of course, but I already like my pseudo-code a lot better than RFC 3986 to answer questions about URLs...
  508. # [16:17] <[tm]> yup
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  514. # [16:30] <[tm]> Christ
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  516. # [16:30] <[tm]> annevk: this is a really special neurosis
  517. # [16:31] <[tm]> that thread
  518. # [16:31] <[tm]> dude really needs to find another hobby
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  527. # [16:57] <zcorpan> annevk: how silly of you not to consider what webkit will do tomorrow
  528. # [16:58] <annevk> heh
  529. # [16:58] <annevk> my idea was to write down what webkit will do tomorrow
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  532. # [17:01] <annevk> the "patch the existing spec" tactic has fallen out of favor with me for specs that are not actively maintained
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  534. # [17:02] <annevk> HTML, Media Queries, Cookies, MIME, DOM, Encoding all showed that to be much harder than starting with a fresh perspective
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  537. # [17:07] <annevk> matjas: what the hell is MySQL three-byte UTF-8
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  539. # [17:08] <matjas> annevk: MySQL’s `utf8` collation doesn’t support astral symbols
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  541. # [17:08] <annevk> matjas: not natively or not at all?
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  543. # [17:09] <matjas> annevk: not at all
  544. # [17:09] <annevk> I wonder how I manage to store those characters in blog posts then...
  545. # [17:09] <gavinc> BMP characters only :(
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  547. # [17:09] <matjas> annevk: wat
  548. # [17:10] <matjas> annevk: to get the 𝌆 symbol in http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/javascript-encoding I had to use str_replace()
  549. # [17:10] <matjas> annevk: got an example of such a blog post?
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  551. # [17:10] <annevk> hmm maybe I don't
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  556. # [17:14] <matjas> annevk: i believe wordpress has a workaround, you might have written something similar
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  669. # [20:20] <aklein> smaug____: yt? got a question about an oddity with Firefox MutationObservers and the style attribute...
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  671. # [20:22] <smaug____> aklein: yes?
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  673. # [20:25] <aklein> smaug____: it appears that changing non-existent style properties triggers a MutationRecord creation. here's the test that passes in WebKit but fails in Firefox: http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/fast/mutation/observe-attributes.html#L741
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  675. # [20:27] <aklein> not a big deal, seems to me, but it's the one test that failed when I ran Aurora through our tests just now
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  677. # [20:28] <smaug____> aklein: so the problem isn't about mutationobserver
  678. # [20:28] <smaug____> just about whether attr should change in that case...
  679. # [20:28] <smaug____> "Mutating the CSSStyleDeclaration object must create a style attribute on the element (if there isn't one already) and then change its value to be a value representing the serialized form of the CSSStyleDeclaration object."
  680. # [20:29] <aklein> true, it's a lower layer than MutationObserver
  681. # [20:29] <smaug____> aklein: so, per spec there should be a mutation
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  683. # [20:31] <aklein> smaug____: thanks for the spec citation, I think this then buckets into the other set of failures (general behavioral differences). I very much doubt this would be a problem in practice.
  684. # [20:31] <smaug____> yeah
  685. # [20:31] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  686. # [20:36] <smaug____> aklein: in your test, perhaps you shouldn't use shouldBe
  687. # [20:37] <smaug____> but something like todo
  688. # [20:37] <smaug____> if you have todo
  689. # [20:37] <smaug____> so that it clearly indicates what the result should be
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  698. # [20:46] <matjas> I bet Hixie is gonna ♥ JSON even more once he sees https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17490#c2
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  701. # [20:55] <hober> matjas: yeah, i rejected a patch to json.el that added octal & hex literals and the patch author was incredulous
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  742. # [21:36] <Ms2ger> So, if you pass 4 arguments to drawImage, what should happen?
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  781. # [22:56] <Hixie> oh are you effing kidding me
  782. # [22:57] <Hixie> how can json not support hex literals
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  784. # [22:57] <Hixie> especially when it supports hex character escapes!
  785. # [22:57] <Hixie> wtf
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  787. # [22:57] <Hixie> matjas: why the str()? does python not convert integers to strings when concatenated with strings?
  788. # [22:59] <SimonSapin> Hixie: no, to avoid surprises like '1'+1 being '11' … or maybe 2
  789. # [23:00] <Hixie> so it's a dynamically typed language that doesn't do dynamic conversion? awesome.
  790. # [23:00] <Hixie> all the disadvantages of strong typing with none of its advantages
  791. # [23:01] <SimonSapin> yes, strong+dynamic
  792. # [23:01] <SimonSapin> strong/weak is not the same as dynamic/static
  793. # [23:01] <Hixie> yes, i am aware :-)
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  795. # [23:03] <SimonSapin> right. Don’t feed the troll ;)
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  801. # [23:14] <zewt> trying to get webgl folks to do the right thing can try one's endurance
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The end :)