/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-06-21 / end

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  51. # [02:04] <heycam> hsivonen, what do you mean SVG scripts can nest, like you can have nested <script> elements?
  52. # [02:04] <gavinc> Anyone who cares about RDF and is bored in the next few days http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html Turtle is going to Last Call next week! Feedback is awesome
  53. # [02:05] <heycam> hsivonen, we should just do whatever HTML does for that too
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  62. # [02:11] <gsnedders> gavinc: s#and#and/or# :)
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  72. # [02:26] <gavinc> gsnedders: good point.
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  111. # [04:28] <Hixie> hmm
  112. # [04:28] <Hixie> how the hell do i serialise a method pointer in JS
  113. # [04:28] <Hixie> bummer
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  170. # [08:08] <Hixie> annevk: was it taken out again? i thought .append() and co were in, that's why i used them in the examples
  171. # [08:08] <annevk> those are
  172. # [08:09] <annevk> but createElement with multiple arguments is not
  173. # [08:09] <Hixie> ah, ok
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  176. # [08:13] <annevk> Lachy: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#errors now uses "name" rather than "type" throughout (IDL has been updated too)
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  178. # [08:16] * jgraham_ is now known as jgraham
  179. # [08:18] <hsivonen> UA string evangelism makes me sad
  180. # [08:19] <hsivonen> Mozilla added "Mobile" and "Tablet" tokens to give sites something other than "Android" to sniff for. Now we are debating whether B2G has to say "Android" anyway, because the string with Android got evangelized.
  181. # [08:19] <annevk> hmm http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webrtc/2012Jun/ pretty much no involvement from people with some history with API design...
  182. # [08:20] <annevk> does explain http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2012AprJun/0269.html ...
  183. # [08:20] <heycam> I'm not in the mood to read those last 100 mails, tbh
  184. # [08:20] <annevk> me neither
  185. # [08:21] <annevk> maybe I'll read something when they get around to publishing again
  186. # [08:21] <heycam> yeah
  187. # [08:21] <heycam> I must say, the spec seems pretty unreadable to me
  188. # [08:21] <heycam> the formatting
  189. # [08:21] <annevk> it's a mixture of WHATWG HTML plus whatever the new guy is using
  190. # [08:21] <annevk> plus probably some other things
  191. # [08:22] <heycam> I wonder if we should mark stringifiers as not for use unless you really have to
  192. # [08:23] <heycam> to me they seem like they invite author confusion
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  194. # [08:27] <hsivonen> heycam: SVG scripts can nest like this <svg><script>foo();<script>bar();</script>baz();</script> thanks to XML-likeness
  195. # [08:27] <heycam> hsivonen, you can do that with HTML too with DOM calls right
  196. # [08:27] <hsivonen> heycam: yes, but then the script wont be parser-inserted
  197. # [08:28] <shepazu> couldn't we simply say that <script> can't nest?
  198. # [08:28] <heycam> hsivonen, is the behaviour for parser inserted nested script elements undefined?
  199. # [08:28] <hsivonen> shepazu: that would be useless without making it impossible for them to nest
  200. # [08:28] <heycam> hsivonen, (beacuse html can't have them?)
  201. # [08:28] <hsivonen> heycam: no
  202. # [08:28] <shepazu> that <script> is not a valid child of <script>, and that any content doesn't execute?
  203. # [08:29] <hsivonen> shepazu, heycam: what I said about the added parser complexity was an aside. Please don't try to fix it by making it worse.
  204. # [08:29] <heycam> lol ok, I had hoped "do the same as HTML" should be making things better
  205. # [08:30] <shepazu> I'm not convinced that this is a real-world problem
  206. # [08:30] <hsivonen> All I need to do is to put the "had async of defer" bit on the stack when now one bit on the tree builder is enough
  207. # [08:30] <heycam> ok, so it wasn't something to be avoided then
  208. # [08:30] <hsivonen> heycam: right
  209. # [08:30] <heycam> btw, what is the behaviour of non-parser inserted nested script elements in html?
  210. # [08:31] <hsivonen> heycam: undefined, which is a spec bug
  211. # [08:31] <heycam> aha
  212. # [08:31] <hsivonen> (browsers disagree, too)
  213. # [08:31] <hsivonen> (though IE10 and WebKit agree)
  214. # [08:31] <heycam> the best kind of spec bug
  215. # [08:32] <hsivonen> but parser-inserted nested script are defined. Yay.
  216. # [08:32] <Hixie> undefined?
  217. # [08:32] <heycam> heh, funny
  218. # [08:32] <Hixie> in which spec?
  219. # [08:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: HTML Living Standard
  220. # [08:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, at least at least 3 channel regulars failed to find the definition
  221. # [08:33] <Hixie> hsivonen: what's undefined? i thought the script processing was pretty well-defined by this point
  222. # [08:33] <heycam> not really knowing how any of this works currently, I would just say the textContent of the outer script element is the script that's run
  223. # [08:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: so it's undefined in practice even if you could find the definition
  224. # [08:34] <hsivonen> heycam: and you'd be wrong :-)
  225. # [08:34] <Hixie> hsivonen: sure, but the differnce is that in one case i have to figure out how to fix it to actually define it, and in the other i just have to add a note
  226. # [08:34] <Hixie> hsivonen: so it's an important difference to me :-)
  227. # [08:34] <heycam> hsivonen, not surprised, as it's just something sensible :)
  228. # [08:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: we need two things:
  229. # [08:34] * Joins: PalleZingmark (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
  230. # [08:34] <hsivonen> 1) something that says that upon inserting a DocumentFragment, the whole fragment gets inserted before attempting to execute any of its scripts
  231. # [08:34] <Hixie> (btw, personally i think the way svg-in-html script parsing is defined now is fantastic, as it is simpler than html, and that can imho only be a good thing)
  232. # [08:35] <Hixie> hsivonen: hm, i can believe that behaviour of script insertion with document fragments isn't well-defined
  233. # [08:35] <hsivonen> 2) a definition for the order in which the scripts that got inserted are attempted to execute
  234. # [08:35] <Hixie> hsivonen: since the html text predates dom core being written
  235. # [08:35] <Hixie> hsivonen: k. is there a bug/e-mail on this?
  236. # [08:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: there's a bug about #1 and it has an off-topic comment about #2
  237. # [08:36] * Quits: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-182-96.adsl.inetia.pl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  238. # [08:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: k
  239. # [08:37] <jgraham> heycam: (textContent would be very confusing <script>alert(1); <script>alert(2)</script></script> would alert 2 then 1 then 2
  240. # [08:37] <jgraham> )
  241. # [08:38] <jgraham> (happily that isn't what happens)
  242. # [08:38] <heycam> jgraham, forgot to also add: the nested <script> elements would not get executed themselves
  243. # [08:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: oh and for nested scripts, both points need to apply also when inserting a tree of elements without a document fragement wrapper
  244. # [08:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: not even in Opera?
  245. # [08:38] <Hixie> same bug #?
  246. # [08:39] <Hixie> 17543?
  247. # [08:39] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.108.107.getinternet.no)
  248. # [08:39] <jgraham> heycam: It would be very confusing not to run some scripts depending on their ancestors
  249. # [08:40] <jgraham> hsivonen: I'm not sure what happens in Opera. iirc *in SVG* that case works OK, but there might be that bug if you nest scripts in HTML
  250. # [08:40] <heycam> (disagree, especially if the rule is "if there's an ancestor <script> it doesn't run")
  251. # [08:40] <heycam> (sounds like it's moot anyway tho)
  252. # [08:41] <jgraham> heycam: Pretty much, everyone agrees on that much behaviour at least
  253. # [08:41] <annevk> Hixie: the plan is to add hooks to "DOM" for "elements inserted" and "elements removed" which can be used by HTML to then do stuff
  254. # [08:41] <Hixie> and 17529 i guess
  255. # [08:41] <Hixie> annevk: k
  256. # [08:41] <annevk> Hixie: they're both plural because the idea is that you can atomically insert and remove more than one element
  257. # [08:42] <heycam> annevk, sorry for hammering on about the event handler stuff again, my small brain forgets previous conversations about things like that :)
  258. # [08:42] <jgraham> hsivonen: Doesn't XHTML give you parser-inserted nested scripts?
  259. # [08:42] <annevk> heycam: no worries
  260. # [08:42] <hsivonen> jgraham: yes
  261. # [08:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17529
  262. # [08:43] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-309fe355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  263. # [08:43] <jgraham> I guess that is another case to write tests for
  264. # [08:44] <jgraham> The platform is way too complicated. Every time you think "I should test this simple thing" you realise there are multiple contexts in which you need to test it, often with different behaviour
  265. # [08:46] <jgraham> Anyway, time to cycle to the office (in the sunshine!), I guess
  266. # [08:46] <annevk> Sweden summertime ftw
  267. # [08:47] <Hixie> i cycle to work every day i go to work... California time ftw :-P
  268. # [08:47] * Quits: roc_ (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)

The end :)