/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-07-18 / end

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1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 18 00:00:00 2012
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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6. # [00:04] <Hixie> ok... data: workers done
7. # [00:04] <Hixie> that leaves autocompletetype for chrome and inputmode for mozilla
8. # [00:05] <annevk> Hixie: how did you handle same-origin that redirects to a data: URL?
9. # [00:06] <smaug____> really really odd, pages for mobile browsers seem to use event.srcElement reasonable often
10. # [00:06] <smaug____> I wonder why
11. # [00:06] <smaug____> srcElement is IEism
12. # [00:07] <smaug____> not webkitism
13. # [00:07] <Hixie> annevk: bummer. redirects.
14. # [00:07] * Hixie reopens the editor
15. # [00:08] <annevk> I thought it was an easy fix for XHR too and then decided to pun on it when I realized redirects
16. # [00:08] <Hixie> annevk: oh it's already dealt with. As soon as you have a redirect to a different origin, the fetch aborts.
17. # [00:09] <Hixie> annevk: the way i specced it, it's only data: URLs given in the actual argument that are special-cases
18. # [00:09] <Hixie> special-cased
19. # [00:09] <annevk> I guess that's okay
20. # [00:09] <annevk> the redirect case is kind of weird
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42. # [00:22] <hober> If you're an implementor and object to the changes described in http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Mtanalin/legend-placement#Details it would be nice if you said so in the wbs poll on the matter before friday: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-200-objection-poll/
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47. # [00:25] <Tabatkins> Oh jesus.
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49. # [00:27] <hober> Tabatkins: exactly.
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58. # [00:41] <Hixie> adding some screenshots to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Text_input_keyboard_mode_control
59. # [00:41] <Hixie> hober: why does it matter? surely if the wg just makes the spec say something dumb, it'll just be ignored
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62. # [00:44] <hober> Hixie: all things being equal, it'd be nice if the wg took its charter requirement to actively pursue convergence.
63. # [00:44] <hober> s/took/took seriously/
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65. # [00:46] <Hixie> hober: that's up to the chairs
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68. # [00:46] <Hixie> hober: and the editors
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70. # [00:46] <hober> indeed, and they base their decisions on, among other things, the wbs survey results. having voices of reason in the survey results helps improve the outcome
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74. # [00:51] <Hixie> hober: if they took their charter requirement to actively pursue convergence seriously, they wouldn't base their decisions on surveys
75. # [00:52] * tantek scrolls up
76. # [00:53] <tantek> nicely written objection TabAtkins
77. # [00:53] <tantek> I'm not sure I could really add anything substantial to that
78. # [00:53] <tantek> my big objection is that there is insufficient benefit shown to offset the cost of adding a new <ilegend> element - in fact, quite the opposite, it looks like language pollution.
79. # [00:54] <Tabatkins> tantek: Simply adding that Mozilla objects for the same reason would be useful.
80. # [00:54] <tantek> however, that's not really a new objection compared to what you wrote, so I'm not going to bother adding a "me too" answer since the chairs say they don't look at # of votes etc. but rather just the strength of arguments.
81. # [00:54] <Tabatkins> While votes themselves aren't counted, weight of impl opinion is.
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85. # [00:54] <tantek> it shouldn't be an (un)popularity contest
86. # [00:54] <Tabatkins> It should absolutely include popularity among implementors.
87. # [00:54] <Tabatkins> Given that they're the ones implementing the features. ^_^
88. # [00:55] <Hixie> it shouldn't be a contest at all
89. # [00:55] <tantek> I'd rather see the chairs make a good rational decision based on your objection alone. I think that will show that strength of argument matters more than specific parties objecting.
90. # [00:55] <karlcow> plus I would rather prefer having an element called <iamlegend> or even better <thelastmanonearth>
91. # [00:55] <Hixie> the objections have long been discussed, if the chairs wanted to make rational decisions they could have done so months ago (when i did)
92. # [00:55] <Tabatkins> Past experience suggests the chairs don't make good rational decisions on these things.
93. # [00:55] <Hixie> (not to mention that in this case the problems are self-evident)
94. # [00:56] <tantek> Tabatkins - my experience has been contrary - e.g. decisions on Issue 183, Issue 184. Have been quite rational.
95. # [00:56] * Hixie gave up hope on the chairs when they decided on a proposal that was literally self-contradictory
96. # [00:56] <Tabatkins> I'm willing to believe they're not consistently irrational. ^_^
97. # [00:56] <tantek> Hixie, baby/bathwater. No one is perfect.
98. # [00:57] <Hixie> this isn't about lacking perfection
99. # [00:57] <tantek> Anyway, I think the chairs will also be increasingly biased *against* new elements in an effort to get closure on the HTML5 feature set.
100. # [00:57] <Hixie> it was clear in their decision that they didn't even know what they were deciding on -- the thing they pointed to had two different proposals, both internally inconsistent, and they hadn't even noticed
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102. # [00:57] <Hixie> and they continued to insist for something like 6 months, even after every single problem was discussed to death, that their decision was right
103. # [00:58] <tantek> Hixie, not everyone is as good at spotting deep internal inconsistencies as you are :P
104. # [00:58] <Hixie> this isn't "deep internal inconsistencies"
105. # [00:58] <Hixie> this proposal wasn't even consistent at a shallow level
106. # [00:58] * tantek isn't even sure which issue/proposal(s) we're talking about, but suspects it has something to do with accessibility.
107. # [00:58] <Hixie> some canvas thing last year
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115. # [01:05] <tantek> quick question for those of you that went to TPAC2012 and are considering going to TPAC2013:
116. # [01:06] <gavinc> ... isn't TPAC2012 in October?
117. # [01:06] <Tabatkins> Very end of Oct/beginning of Nov.
118. # [01:06] <tantek> make that went to TPAC2011 and are considering going to TPAC2012 :)
119. # [01:06] <Tabatkins> Oh, got it.
120. # [01:07] * Tabatkins missed the implication of the question. ^_^
121. # [01:07] <tantek> Did you get value out of the TPAC2011 pre-scheduled morning sessions (before the BarCamp-style sessions), or not? (e.g. lots, some value, none, negative, walked out) And if you did get value, any suggestions for "global" topics for TPAC2012?
122. # [01:07] <tantek> (that's the question, before was just setup)
123. # [01:07] <tantek> (totally unscientific poll)
124. # [01:07] <Tabatkins> I don't remember what they were, so... apparently not.
125. # [01:08] <Tabatkins> I think fantasai and I skipped them to work on the slides for out later session.
126. # [01:08] <othermaciej> do you mean on the tech plenary day?
127. # [01:08] <tantek> othermaciej yes
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129. # [01:08] <tantek> Tabatkins I'
130. # [01:08] <tantek> I'll take that as "none" for you and fantasai then
131. # [01:09] * gavinc got no value what so ever as the WGs he's part of didn't go to TPAC last year, and are going this year but now the TPAC is in Europe and can't get funding and there is no remote on the TPAC site this year :( I am a sad panda
132. # [01:09] <Tabatkins> More of an "abstain", but close enough to be "none".
133. # [01:09] <Tabatkins> gavinc: I'll take you in my baggage.
134. # [01:11] <tantek> more of a "decided to not go" than "abstain" which if anything is a vote against based on pre-evaluation.
135. # [01:11] <smaug____> uh, almost forgot tpac... more traveling this year
136. # [01:11] <hober> IIRC the unconference part of the day was worthwhile
137. # [01:11] <hober> but I don't remember the non-unconference part.
138. # [01:11] <Tabatkins> tantek: Yeah, but we had things to do, and also the weather was *gorgeous* outside.
139. # [01:11] <Hixie> i got a lot of OpenTTD done that week
140. # [01:11] <tantek> hober - I'll take "don't remember" as a "none"
141. # [01:12] <Hixie> other than that, pretty much every meeting i was in that i thought was productive (not many to start with) ended up being a no-op because the decisions made there were reversed or abandoned within a month or two
142. # [01:12] <Hixie> so i'd have to go with "negative"
143. # [01:12] <Tabatkins> Hixie: He's not polling about WG meetings.
144. # [01:12] <Hixie> i didn't go to any wg meetings
145. # [01:13] <Tabatkins> Oh, ok then.
146. # [01:13] <Hixie> those i _knew_ are a waste of time :-)
147. # [01:14] <tantek> Hixie - I thought I saw you in the HTMLWG meeting - or was I hallucinating that?
148. # [01:14] <Hixie> oh yeah there was that tv-related thing
149. # [01:14] <Hixie> forgot that that was a wg meeting
150. # [01:14] <tantek> I have a vague memory of time element discussions that were fairly productive
151. # [01:15] <tantek> but some of that was also in informal lobby conversations as well
152. # [01:15] <Hixie> the time element discussions were productive in that you and i spent 5 minutes at lunch time and that resulted in the whatwg spec being updated to the right thing, and the htmlwg still hasn't figured out the resolution to that topic.
153. # [01:15] <tantek> either way - it was good to see you at TPAC even if for only a day or two.
154. # [01:15] <Hixie> last year i was thinking of doing a "whatwg team building day" on the wednesday
155. # [01:16] <Hixie> but the w3c and hsivonen convinced me not to
156. # [01:16] <tantek> Hixie - htmlwg has resolved on both issue 183 and 184 AFAIK, and consistent with the whatwg spec changes/resolutions.
157. # [01:16] <Tabatkins> Dammit, I wanted to do that.
158. # [01:16] <tantek> (those are the time/data issues)
159. # [01:16] <Hixie> tempted to try again in 2013 (assuming 2012 is in europe)
160. # [01:16] <tantek> what would be a whatwg team building day? like go rock climbing somewhere together?
161. # [01:16] <Hixie> tantek: i thought there were still some oustanding, but ok, i can't claim to have looked closely
162. # [01:17] <Hixie> my idea was to rent a bunch of buses and take everyone down to the exploratorium
163. # [01:17] <tantek> Hixie, there were, but there's been progress today on both issues.
164. # [01:17] <Hixie> and do some sort of puzzle hunt there
165. # [01:17] <Hixie> "progress"
166. # [01:17] <Hixie> c.f. the whatwg spec resolved this last year
167. # [01:17] <tantek> "progress" meaning actual HTMLWG decisions and issue closures.
168. # [01:17] <Hixie> pardon me for having stopped caring entirely :-)
169. # [01:18] <Hixie> (about the htmlwg)
170. # [01:18] <tantek> Hixie, I realize the delay in changes/decisions in comparison. I decided to in good faith attempt to pursue the issue resolution path in HTMLWG.
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175. # [01:19] <Hixie> anyway, yeah, if the tpac is back in the bay area some time i'll look into doing some sort of proper team-building day again
176. # [01:19] <tantek> I expect so in 2013
177. # [01:19] <Hixie> right
178. # [01:20] <hober> sounds fun
179. # [01:20] <tantek> BTW I think they're constructing a new Exploratorium on the bay (forgot which Pier #) and moving everything.
180. # [01:20] <Hixie> oh neat!
181. # [01:20] <tantek> not sure if that will be done or not by 2013 TPAC
182. # [01:21] <tantek> http://www.exploratorium.edu/piers/
183. # [01:21] <Hixie> they say "in 2013"
184. # [01:21] <tantek> Pier 15 apparently
185. # [01:21] <Hixie> spring 2013!
186. # [01:21] <Hixie> dude that's awesome
187. # [01:21] <Hixie> we should definitely do that
188. # [01:21] <Hixie> anyway, that's like 18 months away
189. # [01:22] <Hixie> afk, bbiab
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191. # [01:23] <tantek> couldn't find a timeline, but yeah spring 2013 sounds good. also this is cool: http://www.exploratorium.edu/piers/creatingcampus.php?show=inside
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207. # [02:20] <Tabatkins> Hixie: Regarding your suggestion about hanging the source of the template off of a string property, do you want the actual original text, or is a reserialization sufficient?
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231. # [03:21] <Hixie> Tabatkins: can you elaborate on your question?
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256. # [03:49] <volkmar> Hixie: ping
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283. # [04:56] <Hixie_> volkmar: here briefly
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287. # [04:57] <volkmar> Hixie: about that autocompletetype
288. # [04:57] <volkmar> could you wait until the end of the month for my feedback?
289. # [04:57] <volkmar> I will not have the time this week
290. # [04:57] <volkmar> maybe not next week
291. # [04:58] <volkmar> but after, I will be on vacation so time I should find ;)
292. # [04:58] <Hixie> can you give me a synopsis of your feedback?
293. # [04:58] <Hixie> like, a one line "elevator pitch"?
294. # [05:01] <volkmar> Hixie: basically, my feeling is that we should be able to use cleverly @type instead of @autocompletetype
295. # [05:01] <volkmar> a few autocompletetype values are already @type values
296. # [05:01] <volkmar> and we could extend @type instead of having that new thing
297. # [05:02] <Hixie> i thought type="" was for the data type and autocompletetype="" was for the field name?
298. # [05:02] <Hixie> like, type would be something like "integer" or "string", and autocomplete type something like "x" and "y", or "name" and "description"
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300. # [05:06] <Hixie> dglazkov: in xbl, there were different events with event objects retargetting too (there had to be, since we sometimes crossed security boundaries)
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302. # [05:08] <zewt> i'd sooner not have @type expanded for things that use the same widget; I wish type=password had just been <input type=text datatype=password> or something like that, since it's less special casing when I just want to hook "all text-input-box <input>s"
303. # [05:08] <zewt> having type=name or something like that means every case where I want to do that, I have to add "|| e.target.type == 'name'", and so on (if I'm following right, which I may not be since I'm preoccupied)
304. # [05:09] <Hixie> zewt: search and text are more similar than text and password, at least text and password are slightly different controls. search is barely more than the same control with a stylistic change.
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307. # [05:12] <zewt> yeah, often a completely script-invisible one too (like changing onscreen keyboard layouts)
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311. # [05:17] <zewt> sigh, another TR link hits the archives, lurking in wait for somebody to trip up
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330. # [06:17] <volkmar> Hixie: IIRC, autocompletetype wasn't what you describe but I should have another look
331. # [06:18] <Hixie> the thing i'm talking about is for the autofill feature; credit card numbers, addresses, etc
332. # [06:18] <volkmar> yes
333. # [06:19] <Hixie> well e.g. for "credit card expiry date", you'd want type=month, but autocompletetype="credit card expiry date"; but for "anniversary" you'd want type=month but autocompletetype="wedding day" or some such
334. # [06:19] <volkmar> Hixie: fwiw, the example of the official blog post is something like "<input type=”text” name=”field1” x-autocompletetype=”email” />"
335. # [06:19] <Hixie> "official"?
336. # [06:20] <Hixie> i dunno about any blog post :-)
337. # [06:20] <volkmar> from google blog post
338. # [06:20] <Hixie> ah
339. # [06:20] <volkmar> but i'm not sure about thta autocompletetype="credit card expiry date"
340. # [06:20] <volkmar> i thought the idea was to have a defined list
341. # [06:20] <Hixie> i don't know what the value would actually be
342. # [06:20] <volkmar> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Autocompletetype
343. # [06:22] <volkmar> oh
344. # [06:22] <volkmar> i actually replied to the whatwg thread
345. # [06:23] <Hixie> cc-exp, right
346. # [06:23] <volkmar> Hixie: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Jan/0193.html
347. # [06:24] <Hixie> note 4 pretty much summarises what i was trying to say above
348. # [06:24] <Hixie> i don't understand how it would work
349. # [06:25] <Hixie> type=tel just says "this is a kind of phone number"
350. # [06:25] <Hixie> it doesn't say whether it's a home phone, work phone, fax number, voicemail number, ...
351. # [06:26] <volkmar> yes, indeed
352. # [06:27] <volkmar> for those information we might want to use stuff like contacts api
353. # [06:28] <Hixie> the advantage of the proposed solution is that it paves a very well-travelled cowpath
354. # [06:28] <volkmar> also, do we have any idea of web dev willingness to use that attribute?
355. # [06:29] <Hixie> chrome guys tell me they have some uptake, but i don't know of any first-hand
356. # [06:31] <volkmar> I think <input type='address'> and <input type='contact'> could solve quite a lot of what they do but the chance to see that happening soon are null
357. # [06:31] <volkmar> however, I don't feel that this feature is very urgent
358. # [06:33] <Hixie> i'm currently specifically going through features that vendors don't think are urgent except for one vendor, this is just the one (of many chrome asked for) that chrome is getting :-)
359. # [06:33] <Hixie> mozilla is getting inputmode
360. # [06:34] <volkmar> inputmode use cases are quite clear
361. # [06:34] <Hixie> so are autofill use cases :-)
362. # [06:34] <Hixie> i mean, this is stuff browsers have done since the dawn of time
363. # [06:34] <volkmar> there might be other ways to solve this but I'm sure web devs want a feature like that
364. # [06:36] <volkmar> Hixie: sure but browsers are already kind of solving the problem
365. # [06:36] <volkmar> seems like the main use case of that proposal is for website selling stuff
366. # [06:36] <Hixie> i'm not sure what you're arguing for or against
367. # [06:36] <Hixie> but i encourage you to post on the thread
368. # [06:37] <volkmar> my first reply has been ignored
369. # [06:37] <volkmar> i can write another one
370. # [06:37] <volkmar> but not before 10 days
371. # [06:37] <Hixie> i won't ignore your previous mail, i'm sure it's still on my pile
372. # [06:37] <Hixie> i don't think it makes sense though :-)
373. # [06:39] <volkmar> that would be a good reason to ignore it actually
374. # [06:39] <Hixie> "ignore" would mean that i don't even bother reading it or considering it
375. # [06:39] <volkmar> actually, I wasn't speaking about you ignoring it
376. # [06:40] <volkmar> but the person who sent the proposal
377. # [06:40] <volkmar> but maybe he/she didn't reply because it was just non-sense
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432. # [10:16] <annevk> Hixie: do you think it's better to add an entry for data URLs and XMLHttpRequest with origins to your origin table or should I add an equivalent entry to XMLHttpRequest?
433. # [10:18] <Hixie> dunno right now. send mail or file bug. probably best to have it all in one place though (and we sohuld remove the duplicate table from the origin spec)
434. # [10:20] <annevk> that prolly means removing that spec from the IETF as updating RFCs is hard
435. # [10:20] <annevk> I tried filing errata against it and they just wontfixed it without even taking it up in the WG...
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441. # [10:34] <annevk> also holy batman, 67 bugmails
442. # [10:34] * Joins: djdingo14 (djdingo14@unaffiliated/djdingo14)
443. # [10:35] <djdingo14> Will HTTP 2.0 come out tomorrow with support in all browsers and support directly attaching your bank account to some kind of global ID which you can use to transfer and receive any amount of money anonymously for $0.01 per transaction regardless of the fee instantly without any hassle which will open up fantastic new abilities to finally monetize good content without relying on awkward scams such as PayPal?
444. # [10:35] <djdingo14> Because that would be some news that would actually get me excited, for the first time in about a decade.
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448. # [10:41] <annevk> go outside, life a little ;)
449. # [10:41] <annevk> live*
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452. # [10:45] <annevk> MikeSmith: you around?
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454. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> yeah
455. # [10:45] <annevk> MikeSmith: we had the idea to make a new product, named WHATWG or WHATCG
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457. # [10:46] <annevk> MikeSmith: it could be "Web platform (other)" renamed
458. # [10:46] <annevk> MikeSmith: and then move Fullscreen/Encoding/HTML there
459. # [10:47] <annevk> MikeSmith: the HTML that is currently "other Hixie drafts (editor: Ian Hickson)"
460. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> sounds fine to me
461. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> I can just change the name of the "Web Platform (other)" one
462. # [10:48] <djdingo14> annevk: I am outside quite often. What the hell's your point?
463. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> annevk: what should be put for the description? "Deliverables of the WHATCG"?
464. # [10:49] <annevk> djdingo14: don't try to get excitement from things you don't influence
465. # [10:50] <annevk> MikeSmith: WHATWG standards?
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467. # [10:50] <annevk> MikeSmith: or WHATWG specifications
468. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: ok
469. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> I made the component name WHATCG
470. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/describecomponents.cgi?product=WHATCG
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472. # [10:55] <annevk> MikeSmith: hmm Fullscreen is also under WebAppsWG?
473. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> yeah
474. # [10:58] <annevk> MikeSmith: is it easy to move a component?
475. # [10:58] <annevk> MikeSmith: otherwise just keep it under WebApps and remove the one under WHATCG
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478. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> annevk: OK I'll just remove the one under WHATCG for now, since there are no bugs there anyway
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480. # [11:06] <annevk> okay
481. # [11:06] <annevk> MikeSmith: if you can, coordinate with Hixie when to move "other Hixie drafts (editor: Ian Hickson)" over as "HTML" so he can update his scripts afterwards
482. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah will do
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484. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> have to wait til tomorrow though
485. # [11:08] <annevk> there's no rush
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492. # [11:36] <hsivonen> argh. I made a mistake in my poll answer
493. # [11:36] <hsivonen> has the ability to revise been removed or is this the poll-systems bogus cache control again?
494. # [11:38] <hsivonen> it's the cacheability
495. # [11:39] <hsivonen> and when I read my comment again, it seems I already said what I meant
496. # [11:41] <annevk> still caring about the HTML WG?
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501. # [11:59] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah. it turns out that forming an informed opinion for responding to a poll is always a time sink
502. # [12:00] <hsivonen> I tend to regret paying attention to the polls
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505. # [12:00] <annevk> I stopped caring after the last meeting and got chaals to remove me from the group
506. # [12:01] <annevk> Seems Hixie is pretty much out now too
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518. # [12:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about the validator not handling double quotes in charset param, is it OK with you if i check in the change described at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120717#l-783 ?
519. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> ah whoops
520. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> need to make the quotes optional of course
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523. # [12:44] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: Pattern CHARSET = Pattern.compile("^\\s*charset\\s*=\\s*\"?(\\S+)\"?\\s*$");
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533. # [12:47] <MikeSmith> damn that ain't going to work
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537. # [12:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: did you intentionally not enforce the string having both start and end quote or neither?
538. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> no not intentionally
539. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> could deal with it by using two patterns
540. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> one for quoted charset param and one for unquoted
541. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> and check for the quoted case first
542. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> does that sound reasonable?
543. # [12:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: isn't it possible to bake both into one pattern?
544. # [12:52] <hsivonen> might be slightly unpleasant with numbering of the captures, but should work otherwise
545. # [12:53] <hsivonen> do we have a spec for parsing this stuff in non-compliant cases, yet?
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547. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> none that I know of
548. # [12:53] <hsivonen> i.e. do we really want to insist on both quotes or no quotes?
549. # [12:54] <hsivonen> anyway, baking both cases into one pattern should be marginally more performant than having two patterns
550. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> yeah I had another question about that, which is, those spaces around the "=" are not conforming as far as RFC 2616 says
551. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> OK
552. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> so but how do I have a regex that says \S+ but not \" ?
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554. # [12:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: [^\"\s]+ IIRC
555. # [12:56] <hsivonen> if \s inside [...] works
556. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> yeah I think it does
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560. # [13:04] <annevk> MikeSmith: spaces are conforming
561. # [13:04] <annevk> MikeSmith: RFC 2616 has a notion of "implicit whitespace"
562. # [13:04] <annevk> MikeSmith: it's fucked up
563. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> crazy train
564. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> magic whitespace
565. # [13:05] <annevk> yeah, between all tokens unless noted otherwise
566. # [13:05] <annevk> was too hard to write their crazy BNF otherwise
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568. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> BNF is a really great way to obscure clarity
569. # [13:11] * karlcow notes that BNF is Bibliothèque Nationale de France… and that there is indeed some truth into that statement :p
570. # [13:17] <Ms2ger> Like the CSSWG-BNF, then
571. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: does https://gist.github.com/3135601 look sane?
572. # [13:18] <hsivonen> what's "operation convergence"?
573. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> string to make the bugs identifiable so people can filter bugmail
574. # [13:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes, except the parentheses around the quoted variant should be non-capturing
575. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> because of the mailbomb we sent
576. # [13:19] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, Hixie was requested to stop updating the HTMLWG spec, so he's duplicating the bugs to get work done on HTML
577. # [13:19] <hsivonen> i.e. the parentheses inside the quotes need to be capturing but the ones around don't
578. # [13:20] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: I see
579. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ah yeah
580. # [13:21] <hsivonen> oh and the unquoted variant should probably use [^\"\\s]+ as well
581. # [13:22] <hsivonen> otherwise it will capture lone quotes
582. # [13:22] <MikeSmith> ok
583. # [13:22] * MikeSmith updates it
584. # [13:22] <hsivonen> thanks
585. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: updated patch at https://gist.github.com/3135601
586. # [13:26] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: r+
587. # [13:26] <MikeSmith> thanks
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594. # [13:43] <annevk> validator.nu moved to github?
595. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> no there's just a mirror there
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668. # [16:35] <zewt> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16790 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17988 ... what the hell?
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670. # [16:35] <Ms2ger> zewt, the former is to be fixed by the hypothetical HTML5 editor, the latter is actually going to be fixed by Hixie
671. # [16:36] <zewt> uh
672. # [16:36] <zewt> it's nothing but facking up the bug tracker, heh
673. # [16:36] <Ms2ger> Thank the chairs for that :)
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677. # [16:40] <zewt> also the bug isn't CC'd on any lists now?
678. # [16:43] <zewt> also all kinds of metadata wasn't copied over (blocks, priority)
679. # [16:43] <zewt> okay whatever i'm going to work to do *my* job now :)
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681. # [16:51] <jarek> what was the reason for allowing units inside SVG documents?
682. # [16:51] <jarek> I mean something like:
683. # [16:51] <jarek> <rect x="0.5cm" y="0.5cm" width="2cm" height="1cm"/>
684. # [16:52] <jarek> it really doesn't make sense considering the fact that any of the ancestor elements could have transform applied
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687. # [16:55] <cheron> Is the CORS standard not part of the whatwg HTML specification?
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692. # [17:03] <hsivonen> cheron: it's a separate spec
693. # [17:05] <cheron> hsivonen: yes, from W3C, but i can't find it on WHATWG. Does that mean there is none?
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696. # [17:08] <Ms2ger> Indeed
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700. # [17:11] <cheron> ty
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705. # [17:14] <MikeSmith> zewt: doing what to the bug tracker?
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712. # [17:18] <Hixie> MikeSmith: we should call the new product "WHATWG", not "WHATCG", imho
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714. # [17:19] <MikeSmith> Hixie: that carries a higher risk of somebody kneejerk flaming about it
715. # [17:19] <Hixie> the cg's shortname is "whatwg"
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717. # [17:20] <Hixie> i'm happy to take any heat from flames, redirect them to me :-) it just seems needlessly confusing to people filing bugs
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719. # [17:21] <MikeSmith> OK, changed the product name to "WHATWG (flame Hixie instead of MikeSmith)"
720. # [17:21] <Hixie> hah
721. # [17:21] <MikeSmith> :)
722. # [17:22] <MikeSmith> OK, it's just plain WHATWG now
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724. # [17:22] <annevk> okay, I will update the one character in Encoding
725. # [17:23] * Joins: timeless (users.4015@firefox/developer/timeless)
726. # [17:23] <annevk> maybe I should checkout quirks mode and fix it for simon too
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730. # [17:28] <annevk> done
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736. # [17:38] <Hixie> MikeSmith: thanks
737. # [17:39] * Joins: izhak (~izhak@188.244.183.141)
738. # [17:40] <MikeSmith> Hixie: btw I have multiple IMEs for Japanese input installed in my Android mobile
739. # [17:40] <MikeSmith> will try to make time to upload some screenshots
740. # [17:44] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
741. # [17:45] <Hixie> sweet
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747. # [17:48] <Hixie> MikeSmith: do you have access to logs for https://www.w3.org?
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749. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> Hixie: web-server logs you mean?
750. # [17:49] <Hixie> yeah
751. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> nope
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753. # [17:49] <Hixie> i can't work out for the life of me what some of these errors are
754. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> at least I don't think I do
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756. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> it's several machines I guess you know
757. # [17:50] <Hixie> yeah
758. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> but I don't have shell access on any of those
759. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> I can ask somebody who does
760. # [17:51] <Hixie> nah, sok
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765. # [17:55] <Hixie> MikeSmith: ok, can we try to turn off the list bugmail again for a bit?
766. # [17:56] * Joins: gwicke (~gabriel@wikimedia/gwicke)
767. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> yup
768. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> gimme a minute
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770. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> ah man I still had it disabled it seems
771. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> forgotted to re-enable it
772. # [18:00] <Hixie> hah ok, np
773. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> I blame it on too much breakfast beer
774. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> 8 years of fun so far to reach harmonic convergence
775. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> or closing on 9 years now I guess
776. # [18:05] * MikeSmith puts Whatever Happened to the Teenage Dream on the turntable
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779. # [18:09] <Hixie> ok. all htmlwg bugs are now cloned to whatwg bugs. now trying again on the reverse operation.
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783. # [18:14] <annevk> apart from Opera no browser (maybe Internet Explorer?) seems to terminate authority on ; http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/url/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#authority-terminating-character
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785. # [18:14] * jdaggett_ is now known as jdaggett
786. # [18:15] <annevk> I wonder why that was there
787. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> wha
788. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> what is "terminate authority"?
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790. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> would be fun to work a "... with extreme prejudice in there"
791. # [18:17] <Hixie> i've gotten "prejudice" into the specs i edit a few times :-)
792. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> sweet
793. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> let's have more of that please
794. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> annevk: so btw I might be in Amsterdam in September and asked to do 3.5 hours of presentation on Web platform
795. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> if you could help me out with presenting that would be be appreciated
796. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> and/or anybody else you'd recommend
797. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> I will definitely be elsewhere in Europe in September for other things
798. # [18:20] <annevk> I'm around
799. # [18:20] <annevk> sounds like fun
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801. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> annevk: I volunteered to visit some EU W3C offices for 10 days or so but it appears to be morphing into I'll end up spending the entire foreseeable future there once I arrive
802. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> which is OK because it's not like I have anything else productive to do with my time
803. # [18:25] <Hixie> heh
804. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> "An authority terminating character is either a slash character, U+003F ("?"), U+0023 ("#"), or U+003B (";")."
805. # [18:26] <annevk> MikeSmith: we'll make it fun ;)
806. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> we always do :-)
807. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> so why ";" ?
808. # [18:26] <annevk> uhuh
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813. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> <glenn> can someone file a bug against cssom to record this?
814. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> Yeah, filing bugs on your own spec is soooo hard...
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818. # [18:44] <Hixie> oh crap
819. # [18:44] <Hixie> silly silent errors
820. # [18:45] * Hixie cloned a bunch of bugs without noticing the old bugs weren't getting annotated with the new bug id
821. # [18:45] <Hixie> causing a bunch of dupes
822. # [18:46] <Hixie> oh not so many dupes it seems
823. # [18:46] <Hixie> that's lucky
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825. # [18:48] <Hixie> ok through some lucky fluke, no dupes
826. # [18:48] <Hixie> still, need to add the annotations now
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829. # [18:51] <Hixie> oh, this problem is tractable. only five bugs.
830. # [18:52] <Hixie> ok.
831. # [18:52] <Ms2ger> Now, whether 'tis nobler to write a script to fix those five bugs or to fix them manually
832. # [18:54] <Hixie> script
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835. # [18:59] <Hixie> wtf
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837. # [18:59] <Hixie> bugzilla is refusing my tokens
838. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> Hixie: hitting rate limiting maybe?
839. # [19:00] <Hixie> that seems to usually be 502s and 504s
840. # [19:00] <Hixie> this is a 200, saying i should hit back because the token is bad
841. # [19:00] * Ms2ger wonders if the CSSWG is going to manage not to rename flexbox again
842. # [19:01] <Ms2ger> I guess it's about 50/50
843. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> nothing the CSSWG does will ever surprise me
844. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> they have already achieved
845. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> anyway I thought flexbox was dead in the water in the face of grid
846. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> not that I know jack about either
847. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> hmm "Unknowing Information Practices"
848. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> interesting phrase
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862. # [19:15] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
863. # [19:15] <Ms2ger> Good day
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866. # [19:16] <Ms2ger> Turns out the CSSWG, as usual, can't decide what to do and what reason to invent for the decision
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868. # [19:19] <Hixie> oh dear lord
869. # [19:19] <Hixie> <-- idiot
870. # [19:19] <Ms2ger> News at 11 :)
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901. # [20:07] <Hixie> almost done
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903. # [20:09] <Hixie> i wonder why there was a bug bump yesterday around the time i was doing the cloning
904. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> ?
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906. # [20:10] <MikeSmith> coincidence?
907. # [20:10] <Hixie> i hope so
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909. # [20:10] <Hixie> in theory this bug cloning thing shouldn't have affected the number of bugs i have assigned to me, because each bug cloned was originally assigned to me, and as each is cloned, one of the two ends up not assigned to me
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911. # [20:10] <Hixie> but there's a bump on http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html?period=1
912. # [20:10] <MikeSmith> ah
913. # [20:10] <Hixie> not a big one
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915. # [20:11] <MikeSmith> that's got to be some artifact for sure
916. # [20:11] <Hixie> went from 522 to 531 between 07:00 and 08:00
917. # [20:11] <Hixie> which is exactly when we were doing it yesterday
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919. # [20:11] <Hixie> i think
920. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> yeah
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924. # [20:13] <MikeSmith> consequence of doing violence against bugzilla and bugmail
925. # [20:13] <Hixie> i don't really see how it could go up rather than down :-)
926. # [20:13] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.104.51)
927. # [20:13] <Hixie> but i guess that's at least not the destructive direction...
928. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> yeah
929. # [20:14] <Hixie> ok looks like it's done
930. # [20:14] <Hixie> let me kust rerun the scripts to catch any stragglers
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932. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> sweet
933. # [20:14] <Hixie> no stragglers
934. # [20:14] <Hixie> sweet!
935. # [20:14] <Hixie> ok cool
936. # [20:14] <Hixie> MikeSmith: can you also change the default assignee for the htmlwg bugs to dave.null rather than me?
937. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> I'll re-enable bugmail for the lists
938. # [20:15] <Hixie> cool, thanks
939. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah
940. # [20:16] <MikeSmith> btw the secret plan is that I become the new HTML WG editor
941. # [20:16] <MikeSmith> so that I get paid double
942. # [20:16] <Hixie> i doubt the money is worth it :-)
943. # [20:16] <MikeSmith> hah
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945. # [20:16] <MikeSmith> I'm waiting to see how that goes
946. # [20:17] <MikeSmith> in unrelated news btw anybody raise your hand if you think basing an operating system is the DOM is a great idea
947. # [20:18] <Ms2ger> volkmar, he's waiting for you
948. # [20:20] <MikeSmith> "I hope that b2g is as grand a success as ChromsOS and WebOS have been so far"
949. # [20:20] <Ms2ger> Ouch
950. # [20:20] <Hixie> i can't quite get the times and numbers to line up but there does seem to have been a bunch of bugs filed in the last day
951. # [20:21] <Hixie> so i'm going to assume timezones account for most of this
952. # [20:21] <MikeSmith> Hixie: weird I don't think so many bugs were filed in the last day
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954. # [20:22] <Hixie> there were at least nine "Everything!!! Someone else in into my computer and controls it" bugs filed
955. # [20:22] <MikeSmith> and I get Cc'ed on all of them
956. # [20:22] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
957. # [20:22] <MikeSmith> I dunno i have so much bugmail even normally that it's hard for me to tell I guess
958. # [20:22] <Hixie> which, if the times on the three "you njust saved" bugs were not so close as to make the maths bogus, would account for the 522 to 531 increase
959. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> geez
960. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> that's nothing man
961. # [20:23] <Hixie> the bug filed 12 seconds before called "i m searching action" also belies my explanation
962. # [20:23] <Hixie> but anyway
963. # [20:27] <Hixie> ok
964. # [20:27] <Hixie> now i need to change the default QA on these bugs and reassign them all to the WHATWG product
965. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> OK
966. # [20:28] <MikeSmith> can do that
967. # [20:28] <Hixie> oh i can do it, it's easy
968. # [20:28] <MikeSmith> ok
969. # [20:30] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106162.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Quit: MikeSmith)
970. # [20:31] <Hixie> 1075 bugs, hm
971. # [20:31] <Hixie> this ought to be fun
972. # [20:32] <Hixie> ah, no component yet
973. # [20:32] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|lunch
974. # [20:32] <Ms2ger> Now they're all touched in the last few days... Maybe you could prioritize by bz being cc'd? :)
975. # [20:32] <Hixie> hehe
976. # [20:33] <Hixie> now that i don't have to worry about the escalation proces, i expect the closure rate will be much higher
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983. # [20:38] <Hixie> MikeSmith: can you create an "HTML" component in the WHATWG product, default assignee ian@hixie.ch, qa contributor@whatwg.org? pretty please :-)
984. # [20:40] * Quits: ^esc_ (~esc_ape@178.115.249.32.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
985. # [20:40] <MikeSmith> yah of course
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988. # [20:41] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
989. # [20:42] <Hixie> i love the name of the "Unwelcome" component
990. # [20:42] <MikeSmith> hah
991. # [20:42] <MikeSmith> yeah couldn't think of another good name for that
992. # [20:43] <Hixie> "Behind the seat cushion"
993. # [20:43] <Hixie> or "The crack", as in "it fell through the cracks", though people would interpret that wrongly :-P
994. # [20:44] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
995. # [20:44] <MikeSmith> hahaha
996. # [20:44] <MikeSmith> anyway for now "HTML" component created
997. # [20:45] <Hixie> sweet
998. # [20:45] <Hixie> ok, moving all the bugs over from "other Hixie drafts" now
999. # [20:45] <MikeSmith> k
1000. # [20:46] <Hixie> ...there's no way to do this without sending (me in particular) several thousand e-mails, is there
1001. # [20:46] <MikeSmith> me too
1002. # [20:47] <Hixie> indeed
1003. # [20:47] <Hixie> ok here goes
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1007. # [20:48] * MikeSmith waits to receive yet another mail bomb
1008. # [20:48] <Hixie> zewt already said i should have my decision making privileges revoked for all the spam he got
1009. # [20:49] <MikeSmith> hah
1010. # [20:49] <MikeSmith> so I guess he figures I should be stripped of decision-making privileges too
1011. # [20:49] <MikeSmith> which is fine by me me
1012. # [20:50] <Hixie> well he said whoever made the decision to do it should be
1013. # [20:50] <Hixie> so i think you may be safe
1014. # [20:50] <MikeSmith> ah OK
1015. # [20:50] <MikeSmith> damn
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1017. # [20:50] <MikeSmith> I was going to suggest he contact my boss with a concrete proposal
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1019. # [20:50] <Hixie> ok i updated my bug filing script and the links in the boilerplate for the whatwg specs
1020. # [20:51] <Hixie> wonder where else needs updating
1021. # [20:51] <smaug____> Hixie: so HTML bugs should go now to product:WHATWG?
1022. # [20:51] <MikeSmith> Hixie: dunno really other than that
1023. # [20:51] <Hixie> smaug____: yeah
1024. # [20:51] <smaug____> ok, good.
1025. # [20:51] <Hixie> smaug____: product WHATWG, component HTML
1026. # [20:52] <Hixie> smaug____: i'll do some PSAs in IRC channels soon, but feel free to start broadcasting the news :-)
1027. # [20:52] <Hixie> smaug____: e-mail is still fine, too, of course
1028. # [20:53] <Ms2ger> Whoa, why did my inbox just jump to 259?
1029. # [20:53] <Ms2ger> Oh, Hixie
1030. # [20:53] <Hixie> MikeSmith: it's about 30% done with the move, but the page itself has timed out so i only know this from doing queries :-)
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1032. # [20:53] <MikeSmith> hmm OK
1033. # [20:53] <Hixie> uh oh, looks like it stalled
1034. # [20:54] <Hixie> uh
1035. # [20:54] <Hixie> 393 left in old component + 315 in new component != 1075 which we had before...
1036. # [20:54] <Hixie> that doesn't bode well
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1038. # [20:56] <Hixie> oh, i see
1039. # [20:56] <Hixie> i was excluding some by mistake
1040. # [20:57] <Hixie> 134 to go...
1041. # [20:57] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.95.137) (Quit: nn)
1042. # [20:57] <Hixie> 88...
1043. # [20:57] <Hixie> oh no, it overwhelmed ms2ger!
1044. # [20:57] <Hixie> 59...
1045. # [20:58] <Hixie> 21...
1046. # [20:58] <Hixie> tis done!
1047. # [20:58] <Hixie> MikeSmith: can you delete the "other hixie drafts" component? and then i think we're done entirely with this
1048. # [20:58] * Hixie informs the chairs
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1058. # Session Close: Wed Jul 18 21:35:21 2012
1059. #
1060. # Session Start: Wed Jul 18 21:35:21 2012
1061. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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1065. # [21:36] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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1166. # [23:27] <Yuhong> Hixie: I wonder whether the "HTML5 in 2022" talk inspired you to make HTML a living standard.
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1172. # [23:32] <Yuhong> Wrote a blog article about the buzzword: http://yuhongbao.blogspot.com/2012/07/why-html5-buzzword-is-misnomer.html
1173. # [23:32] <Yuhong> And submitted this to Reddit and HN.
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1179. # [23:42] <Hixie> Yuhong: it did not; it was the realisation that to finish in 2022 would mean not adding features for about a decade, which is simply a non-starter
1180. # [23:43] <Yuhong> Of course. Even HTML4 did not take that long.
1181. # [23:44] <Hixie> HTML4 took about 6 months, but they didn't do any of what we're doing really
1182. # [23:44] <Hixie> compared to the modern spec, HTML4 is more like a position paper
1183. # [23:45] <Yuhong> CSS 2.0 is even worse. It is unfortunate it took until after almost standards mode was created before the first draft of CSS 2.1 was published.
1184. # [23:46] <Hixie> same people, more or less
1185. # [23:51] <Yuhong> Which was after IE6 was released.
1186. # [23:53] <Yuhong> HN submission:
1187. # [23:53] <Yuhong> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4238188
1188. # [23:54] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.104.51) (Quit: othermaciej)
1189. # [23:54] <Yuhong> Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/web_design/comments/whdid/why_the_html5_buzzword_is_a_misnomer/
1190. # [23:55] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.212.155.184)
1191. # [23:57] <Yuhong> From that era: http://www.mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=1524
1192. # [23:57] <Yuhong> "Is it just me, or is WaSP entirely composed of people who've never written anything other than HTML (and related standards)? Do they not realize that it takes a while to rewrite a browser from the ground up, when a community has 1/1000th the manpower of the competitor?"
1193. # Session Close: Thu Jul 19 00:00:01 2012

The end :)