/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-08-01 / end

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  135. # [05:01] <Hixie> hober: i think relaxed="" is a terrible idea (presumably its presence is still non-conforming, just as the lack of alt="" is non-conforming today even in the presence of <meta>), but what would stop an author from using it instead of alt="" by mistake? (e.g. through cargo culting)
  136. # [05:02] <Hixie> er, s/<meta>)/<meta>/ and s/culting)/culting))/
  137. # [05:02] <Hixie> hober: but, if we're going to have it, could we at least make it an attribute name that conveys the problem more obviously?
  138. # [05:02] <zewt> (validators whining about @alt is a good way to get people to shrug and stick an empty alt on every image just to shut it up)
  139. # [05:02] <Hixie> that's why the spec says conformance checkers shouldn't whine about missing alt="" in a number of cases
  140. # [05:03] <Hixie> hober: e.g. call it alt-attribute-invalidly-omitted-due-to-insufficient-information-at-document-creation-time="" or some such
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  142. # [05:05] <zewt> i don't know what the criteria are, but i know it's nagged me and i've shrugged and did the quick shut-up-the-validator-so-it-doesn't-drown-out-real-problems game
  143. # [05:05] <Hixie> uh, missing alt is a real problem
  144. # [05:06] <zewt> not with anything I'm doing
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  146. # [05:07] <Hixie> well if you're just doing private stuff, just stick alt=bogus everywhere, sure
  147. # [05:07] <zewt> hardly private
  148. # [05:08] <Hixie> or just stick a meta=generator line and be done with it
  149. # [05:08] <Hixie> if it's not private then how is it not a real problem?L
  150. # [05:08] <zewt> what problem are you assuming affects what I'm doing?
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  153. # [05:09] <Hixie> i'm assuming you either have presentational images that you're not marking as such with alt="", and thus are peppering the output for non-image-enabled-graphical-browser users with "hey there's an important image here" notifications, or
  154. # [05:09] <Hixie> that you are giving content-ful images that you aren't giving alt="..." text for and are thus making such users be unable to get the full content of the page
  155. # [05:09] <zewt> non-image-enabled-graphical-browsers are not an important category of users to most web developers
  156. # [05:10] <Hixie> ah, the elitist school of web design, i see
  157. # [05:10] <zewt> they may be important to you, but that doesn't magically make that trivially small set of users important to people spending money to have content developed
  158. # [05:10] <zewt> ah, the "developer time is free and everything I think is important is important to everyone" school of web design, I see
  159. # [05:12] <zewt> everything is a balance of priorities, and it's not "elitist" for people to have different priorities than you
  160. # [05:12] <Hixie> do you also have gender fields that only have "male" and "female" options, text that can't be zoomed, diagrams that use just red and green, name fields that require a first and last name, and no js-disabled fallback, by any chance?
  161. # [05:13] <zewt> i sure don't spend time developing for people who turn JS off
  162. # [05:13] <zewt> (the development time it takes to support that is far too severe for the userbase)
  163. # [05:14] <zewt> i don't think there's any parallel between "deliberately turns off javascript" and colorblindness, however
  164. # [05:14] <Hixie> well, i hope you work for companies my employers compete against, so i can pick up all the customers you leave behind :-)
  165. # [05:14] <zewt> sure, you can have both of them :)
  166. # [05:15] <Hixie> 6 billion * (3% + 1% + 1% + 1% + 1% + ...) ends up being plenty of people
  167. # [05:17] <zewt> i'm sympathetic to spending effort supporting people with issues they're born with (colorblindness), but less so to people who expect people to jump through hoops because of something they've done willfully (turn off images, JS, CSS)
  168. # [05:20] <zewt> (which is why I do use @alt if it makes sense, for screen readers; but blind people can't use our primary products--iOS games--anyway, so supporting that for most of our webpages is moot; priorities again)
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  248. # [08:51] <annevk> MikeSmith: submitted affiliation change request
  249. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> thanks
  250. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> I will ping plh about that
  251. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> not sure how quickly he will get around to processing it, because he's at IETF in Vancouver
  252. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> and funny thing, he has been sending me some questions by e-mail now and then
  253. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> about various things
  254. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> and the funny part of it is, I can tell from the subject of the e-mails who he has been talking to at IETF
  255. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> without him needing to mention the name
  256. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> e.g., one of his questions was about the MIME sniffing draft at IETF
  257. # [08:54] <annevk> heh
  258. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> which by the way I think that's another draft we should just (re)take ownership on at this point
  259. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> I think it's a lot further along than the URL draft
  260. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> if we make it deliverable of a W3C WG I don't know which group it should go to
  261. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> but we could deal with that later
  262. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> or we just fold it back into the HTML spec where it came from
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  268. # [09:10] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i think adam was planning on just doing that one through whatwg, i really need to get my act together in terms of making a page to put those
  269. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> ok
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  272. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> I know Adam has zero plans to continue it at IETF
  273. # [09:13] <Hixie> right
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  276. # [09:24] <annevk> there is http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org
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  278. # [09:24] <Hixie> yeah
  279. # [09:24] <Hixie> it's not properly tied into everything
  280. # [09:25] <annevk> our spec organization is a bit of a mess still
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  282. # [09:25] <Hixie> so earlier i suggested alt-attribute-invalidly-omitted-due-to-insufficient-information-at-document-creation-time="" as the attribute name for relaxed=""
  283. # [09:25] <Hixie> obviously that's a non-starter
  284. # [09:26] <Hixie> but how about no-alt-available-at-publication-time="" ?
  285. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> I could live with that
  286. # [09:27] <Hixie> or user-provided-image-without-alt=""
  287. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> I agree it's good to make it a more obviously discouraging attribute name
  288. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> the "user-provided" part seems kind of ambiguous (which user?)
  289. # [09:28] <Hixie> image-contents-unknown="" ?
  290. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> generator-provided-image-without-alt
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  292. # [09:29] <Hixie> generator-provided-image-without-alt="" isn't bad
  293. # [09:30] <Hixie> or generator-provided-image-with-missing-alt="", to underscore that the alt is missing, not just omitted
  294. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> yes
  295. # [09:30] <Hixie> maybe generator-unable-to-provide-alt=""
  296. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> perhaps
  297. # [09:31] <annevk> back later
  298. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> generator-inserted-image-without-providing-alt=""
  299. # [09:31] <Hixie> or longer, generator-unable-to-provide-required-alt=""
  300. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> yeah
  301. # [09:31] <Hixie> i like "unable" because it implies that that's a bad thing, not a choice
  302. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> yeah
  303. # [09:32] <Hixie> of course half the authors don't speak english with enough fluency to get that, and the other half don't care, but still
  304. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> I don't know if that's true, but point taken
  305. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> will be interesting to hear hsivonen current thoughts on this
  306. # [09:33] <Hixie> i think i like generator-unable-to-provide-required-alt=""
  307. # [09:34] <Hixie> the "generator" part is good as it scopes who can say it, the "unable" and "required" parts underscore that it's bad, and the length makes it stick out so it's less likely to be cargo-culted
  308. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> yeah, nobody's going to want to type that manually and it's certainly going to draw their attention in the copy-paste case
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  310. # [09:36] <Hixie> yeah, discouraging manual typing, also a good point
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  313. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> I think I'll add experimental support for this in my validator workspace and push it to http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/ once I've done that
  314. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> including adding a "Report errors for img elements with an generator-unable-to-provide-required-alt attribute." option in the UI, after the current "Show Image Report" option
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  316. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> with it unchecked by default
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  319. # [09:46] <Hixie> btw note that Flickr isn't a use case for this
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  321. # [09:46] <Hixie> Flickr is handled by one of the other escape clauses (using <figure> or title="" to give the image caption)
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  323. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> OK
  324. # [09:48] <Hixie> the case we're talking about here is more for things like word-to-html
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  326. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
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  331. # [10:06] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i posted about it to whatwg
  332. # [10:06] * MikeSmith takes a look
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  356. # [11:04] <Stevef_> hixie: why is word to HTML a use case? alt can be specified in word
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  360. # [11:10] <Stevef_> hixie: notes on effects of conversion from several formats - Accessible Documents in HTML, Word, and PDF http://terrillthompson.com/blog/25
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  362. # [11:11] <annevk> MikeSmith: btw, should we publish Notifications as Last Call?
  363. # [11:13] <jgraham> Hmm, so I am confused about base URIs + pushState. If I have <base href="base/"><a href="foobar"></a> and I pushState the URL of the link, what should the a) document location, b) document base URL and c) resolved link URL be after the pushState?
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  365. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> Stevef_: for the case where the alt text is not specified in the source Word doc
  366. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> we don't validate the source Word doc
  367. # [11:14] <Stevef_> mikesmith: right
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  371. # [11:16] <jgraham> TC: http://hoppipolla.co.uk/tests/pushState/001.html
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  373. # [11:18] <Stevef_> mikesmith: on the generalization of a novalidate attribute, i can think of many situations where an author does not have control over parts of the code that are used in a page, example any 3rd party widget/ any mash up, it would be useful to be able to isolate those parts DOM tree and mark them as novailate, so errors in parts that the author can fix are not lost in the crowd
  374. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> Stevef_: agreed there are situations like that but I think we should deal with those on an element-by-element basis
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  376. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> trying to create a general solution for what are in reality a variety of different problems is often (or usually) not the best idea
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  378. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> relaxed="" is too general of a name
  379. # [11:20] <Stevef_> mikesmith: ok
  380. # [11:20] <jgraham> In particular I don't quite follow why the document base URI doesn't change (in Wecko/GeKit) when you pushState
  381. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> the right solution for img is something more specific and obvious like generator-unable-to-provide-required-alt
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  383. # [11:27] <Stevef_> that could also be used as an identifier for AT to use heuristics or identify the presence of an image without announcing garbage, i could live with that
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  386. # [11:30] <jgraham> annevk, hsivonen: any hints for me about base URIs?
  387. # [11:32] <Stevef_> mikesmith: in the word to HTML case any error would fall into the bucket of machine generated can't fix
  388. # [11:33] <Stevef_> mikesmith: so why provide a method to ignore alt errors only?
  389. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> Stevef_: because that is the only one we have an open issue for
  390. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> my immediate goal is to try to get agreement on a solution for that one open issue, and get it resolved so we can move on to other issues
  391. # [11:37] <annevk> jgraham: dunno, what does the spec say?
  392. # [11:37] <AryehGregor> A novalidate attribute? Like, <html novalidate> so that your page passes validation no matter what?
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  394. # [11:38] <annevk> novalidate is taken by forms
  395. # [11:38] <AryehGregor> Oh, true.
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  397. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> Stevef_, AryehGregor: I do not want to transform the need to resolve issue 206 into a general one-size-fits-all solution
  398. # [11:38] <jgraham> annevk: Well afaict the pushState should set the document's current address
  399. # [11:38] <AryehGregor> Regardless of name, it would make more sense for validators to still validate such portions of the page, just indicate the errors separately.
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  401. # [11:38] <annevk> jgraham: okay, so then the base URL stays the same
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  403. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: that does not solve the problem of needing to make it obvious that an image is broken due to lack of alt text
  404. # [11:39] <annevk> jgraham: and presumably pushState resolves its argument against the base URL for the Document the script is associated with
  405. # [11:39] <jgraham> annevk: But "document base URL" should resolve the <base> element against the current address?
  406. # [11:39] <annevk> jgraham: there's no reason for document base URL to update itself
  407. # [11:39] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, we don't want to introduce permanent new markup features without making sure they're designed to meet solid use-cases at the appropriate level of generality. A quick fix to resolve an issue makes sense for non-normative requirements, but not for introducing new attributes.
  408. # [11:39] <jgraham> annevk: Where do it say that the base URL is static?
  409. # [11:40] <annevk> jgraham: it's established once, not again and again
  410. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor, Stevef_: something that is not suggested in the CP but that I think should be added is, the name of the attribute should be a big red flag that indicates the img should have alt text but is missing it
  411. # [11:40] <annevk> jgraham: it's not exactly static either
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  413. # [11:40] <AryehGregor> Basically, if the author can't provide alt text for an image because they didn't provide it, it's not different from embedding any invalid content, as Stevef_ points out. The validator should still raise an error in such a case.
  414. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: I don't think this is a quick fix at all
  415. # [11:40] <jgraham> The "resolve a URL" algorithm makes it sound like it is resolved every time
  416. # [11:41] <jgraham> annevk: Where is this defined?
  417. # [11:41] * Quits: attiks (~chatzilla@d5153136D.static.telenet.be) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  418. # [11:41] <annevk> jgraham: I guess that is kind of buggy
  419. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: i don't want to take a specific problem that we know we have for one element, and transform it into a general solution for hypothetical problems we might have with other elements
  420. # [11:41] <annevk> jgraham: it should only be updated if <base> mutates I think
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  422. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> if we have similar problems with other elements, then we can introduce specific attributes for those two
  423. # [11:42] <annevk> jgraham: when defining document base URL I don't think Hixie considered pushState
  424. # [11:42] <AryehGregor> annevk, BTW, last I checked, Wikipedia still uses binary collation for (almost?) all its text columns in MySQL, because Unicode support in MySQL stinks. E.g., indexed values have a maximum length in bytes, commonly 1000 bytes in my experience. varchar(255) with four-byte UTF-8 could be a maximum of 1020 bytes, so MySQL will refuse to let you fully index such a column because it can't guarantee that it will always fit (even though it would h
  425. # [11:42] <AryehGregor> ave to be practically all non-BMP chars to go over the limit).
  426. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> right now, there are not a huge set of other similar problems that leap to me for me
  427. # [11:42] <jgraham> annevk: Sigh. OK
  428. # [11:43] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, it's not hypothetical at all. It's very common that sites embed user-submitted HTML of all kinds. E.g., the markup of the MediaWiki interface is largely valid, but user-submitted content is all kinds of invalid.
  429. # [11:43] <jgraham> It is hard to get this stuff right when the spec is wrong (even if the spec is only wrong because implementations fail to follow it)
  430. # [11:43] <AryehGregor> (markup that's invalid in XHTML1 is generally prohibited, but there's lots of stuff that's valid XHTML1 but invalid HTML5)
  431. # [11:43] <jgraham> And even harder when Hixie is in a silly timezone
  432. # [11:44] <annevk> jgraham: well hey I helped you out ;)
  433. # [11:44] <jgraham> Yes, thanks :)
  434. # [11:44] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, likewise blog software, forum software, etc. accepts user-submitted rich markup that might be invalid for whatever reason. In these cases, it should generally be *possible* to automatically make it valid by substituting style="" or whatever.
  435. # [11:44] <AryehGregor> (although it's a real pain in the neck for some things, like cellpadding; and impossible in general in a few cases, like <center>, due to CSS limitations)
  436. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> I understand that the general problem is not hypothetical
  437. # [11:46] <Stevef_> MikeSmith: i suggest that the resolution of the particluar issue may reside in a more general approach that covers other valid use cases
  438. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> I just can't think of many acute cases that are like the img@alt case that we have disagreement about how to deal with
  439. # Session Close: Wed Aug 01 11:48:39 2012
  440. #
  441. # Session Start: Wed Aug 01 11:48:39 2012
  442. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  443. # [11:48] * Disconnected
  444. # [11:49] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  445. # [11:49] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  446. # [11:49] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  447. # [11:49] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
  448. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> the general approach gives them an easy out
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  451. # [11:52] <Stevef_> mikesmith: ok so if the alt attribute was a long name such as generator-unable-to-provide-required-alt="" why would they use it over alt="" since both silence the validator?
  452. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> they wouldn't
  453. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> people wouldn't
  454. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> nobody is expected to manually put that into their markup
  455. # [11:56] * Joins: ^esc (~esc_ape@77.116.247.133.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  456. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> it's solely intended for generators to add to img elements
  457. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> machines, not people
  458. # [11:57] <Stevef_> mikesmith: ok
  459. # [11:58] <Stevef_> mikesmith: so there should be conformance requirments about who can use it right?
  460. # [11:58] <Stevef_> mikesmith: under what circumstances
  461. # [12:03] <Stevef_> only for use in automated markup generators an document format conversion tools. Not for use in WYSIWYG editors etc
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  465. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> Stevef_: yeah, that would be what I would restrict it to
  466. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> tools that do not require human intervention in order to generate the markup they generate
  467. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> they may be parts for some bigger system, like what the CP describes
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  470. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> the author is working in a WYSIWG editor to create the part of the page/application/content they are directly responsible for
  471. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> then the system combines that manually authored content with machine-generated content to produce a page
  472. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> the author then wants to validate that completed page
  473. # [12:09] <Stevef_> then it sounds like a reasonable aproach, but it should be advised that its use must not be used as a reason not to provide downstream authors with a method to add alt text
  474. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> sure
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  484. # [12:27] <Stevef_> mikesmith: so the current wording around the meta exception would need to be tightened up, "identifies one of the software packages used to generate the document. This value must not be used on hand-authored pages." as presumably hand authored pages don't make the cut and 'software packages' could mean anything
  485. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> Stevef_: I think if we did generator-unable-to-provide-required-alt it would mean removing some of that language completely
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  487. # [12:30] <Stevef_> sure
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  498. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> It's depressing to hear dude already saying "I’ll be objecting to this proposed relaxed attribute" at this point in the discussion about Ted's CP
  499. # [12:54] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
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  507. # [13:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: It's also depressing but it's possible to correctly guess who the dude is.
  508. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> heh
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  512. # [13:39] <annevk> public-html is fun
  513. # [13:40] <annevk> "I respect the fact that Ted worked on this in good faith, and under the desire to make things better." hard to not read that as "fuck you"
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  515. # [13:42] * boaz|away is now known as boaz
  516. # [13:45] <annevk> that we're still discussing <img alt> in 2012 is kinda weird too
  517. # [13:46] <hsivonen> annevk: because the chairing hasn't been like this http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2012JulSep/0212.html
  518. # [13:46] <annevk> yeah, although I didn't quite like that he used "consensus" there
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  520. # [13:49] <annevk> with <img alt> some kind of end user study would be interesting
  521. # [13:49] <annevk> the people I know that are blind never have much of a problem with me sharing an image every now and then
  522. # [13:50] * Quits: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  523. # [13:52] <annevk> like if K shares a photo of the beach on Facebook, does a blind person feel left out because it lacks <img alt>?
  524. # [13:52] <annevk> and even if some do, is it reasonable to expect that situation to change?
  525. # [13:54] <annevk> it makes sense to have alt for <a href=/about><img src=/about.png alt="About us"></a> of course, but it's a lot harder with discussion platforms
  526. # [13:57] <annevk> http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/no-copyright-law-the-real-reason-for-germany-s-industrial-expansion-a-710976.html is pretty interesting
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  528. # [14:01] <odinho> annevk: Cool.
  529. # [14:04] * Joins: linclark (~clark@c-67-186-35-246.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  530. # [14:06] <AryehGregor> Who's a good reviewer to ask for <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=751554>? It will presumably be in MFBT.
  531. # [14:07] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106205.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  532. # [14:07] <jgraham> One in #developers? :p
  533. # [14:08] <AryehGregor> Sigh!
  534. # [14:08] <AryehGregor> I do that far too often.
  535. # [14:08] <AryehGregor> I need a better way to visually distinguish these two windows.
  536. # [14:08] * AryehGregor grumbles
  537. # [14:08] <AryehGregor> (thanks for the correction)
  538. # [14:09] * jgraham has no idea what MFBT is but has seen a bunch of blog posts from Jeff Walden that seem to be at a similar infrastructure level fwiw
  539. # [14:10] <jgraham> (I think)
  540. # [14:10] <jgraham> (althought it might have been someone else, and it might be totally unrelated)
  541. # [14:10] <jgraham> (so that was really a totally unhelpful comment)
  542. # [14:11] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I know he's a possible review candidate, just not sure if he's the best one -- I think I saw that he was away or something.
  543. # [14:12] <jgraham> I believe he is currently on a bicycle in the desert somewhere
  544. # [14:12] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com)
  545. # [14:12] <jgraham> (or whatever they call the bit of the USA that isn't on the coasts)
  546. # [14:12] <jgraham> Reading planet.mozilla is great
  547. # [14:13] <odinho> jgraham: you corporate spy
  548. # [14:14] <jgraham> odinho: Not sure what I am spying on unless his bike trip is actually a secret mission :p
  549. # [14:14] <odinho> jgraham: Who's to say it isn't? :P
  550. # [14:20] <AryehGregor> jgraham, MFBT is Mozilla Framework Based on Templates, basically an attempt to write a library of easily-reusable generic macros/templates/etc.
  551. # [14:20] <AryehGregor> From scratch, with no dependencies on other Gecko stuff.
  552. # [14:21] <AryehGregor> I'm trying to get support for C++11's "enum class" feature, so I need to write a wrapper for old compiler versions.
  553. # [14:21] <AryehGregor> And that seems like the trendy place to put stuff like that these days.
  554. # [14:22] <jgraham> Ah. I think I remember seeing the acronym before because it is a rearragement of MTBF
  555. # [14:22] <AryehGregor> Yes, it's very confusing.
  556. # [14:22] <AryehGregor> Especially since I always misremember it as "Mozilla Template-Based Framework", which of course does abbreviate to MTBF.
  557. # [14:22] <jgraham> I would totally have called it Mozilla Template Based Framework
  558. # [14:22] <jgraham> heh
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  560. # [14:22] <AryehGregor> Maybe they did originally, and it proved too confusing . . .
  561. # [14:23] <jgraham> Maybe they didn't want to set themselves up for the obvious jokes when it fails :)
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  563. # [14:31] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: I believe it's easier to remember if you think of it as an abbreviation for Mozilla Friday Beer Time.
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  569. # [14:35] <AryehGregor> jgraham, also, as someone who grew up in Manhattan, I agree that the non-coastal parts of the US qualify as desert.
  570. # [14:35] <AryehGregor> The outer boroughs of New York City are suburbs, and anything outside the city limits is countryside.
  571. # [14:35] <AryehGregor> (My wife grew up in Queens, and does not agree that it is the suburbs, but she's biased)
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  584. # [15:06] <annevk> and you're not biased? lol
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  612. # [15:47] <sedovsek> Hey.
  613. # [15:47] <sedovsek> Shorthand for 'background' property does not work if it includes background-size?
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  659. # [18:00] <garciawebdev> how is your code?
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  667. # [18:19] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  669. # [18:20] <Ms2ger> Good day
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  679. # [18:52] <Hixie> jgraham: here now if you still have a question
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  681. # [18:53] <Hixie> jgraham: was the problem just that the spec doesn't cache the base url when it's specified as a relative url?
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  692. # [19:14] <Hixie> hsivonen: alt="" indicates that the image is decorative and can (and should) be skipped when it comes to users whose primary experience of the page doesn't include images.
  693. # [19:14] <Hixie> hsivonen: a missing alt="" attribute indicates that the image doesn't have an alt attribute, which is either a mistake, or means that the image is key content but that the page generator couldn't provide alternative text
  694. # [19:15] <Hixie> hsivonen: treating them as equivalent is thus not reasonable
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  722. # [19:55] <Hixie> it strikes me that maybe there shouldn't be a limit on how many, say, autocomplete=cc-csc fields a form has
  723. # [19:55] <Hixie> they'll all have to be autofilled with the same value, but that's ok
  724. # [19:55] <Hixie> authors already ask for e.g. the e-mail to be given twice to confirm it
  725. # [19:56] <Hixie> i don't really see why someone would ask for both a tel-local and a tel-local-prefix and tel-local-suffix, but maybe they have a radio button that controls what the input looks like or something...
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  749. # [21:04] <jgraham> Hixie: The problem was that the spec doesn't cache the base URL at all
  750. # [21:04] <jgraham> It recomputes it every time that something is resolved
  751. # [21:05] <jgraham> Which doesn't seem to match browsers, at least to the extent that pushState doesn't seem to affect the base URI
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  753. # [21:08] <Ms2ger> Is http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/StringEncoding something we should implement?
  754. # [21:10] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I thought people seemed quite happy about that API at least
  755. # [21:10] <Hixie> jgraham: k, didn't test that, good to know. can you file a bug / send e-mail?
  756. # [21:10] <Ms2ger> Won't complain about it, then
  757. # [21:10] <Hixie> it makes sense that base urls wouldn't be reresolved, after all, nothing else does :-)
  758. # [21:10] <Hixie> s/does/is/
  759. # [21:12] <jgraham> Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18459
  760. # [21:12] <Hixie> awesome, thanks
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  763. # [21:14] <Hixie> hsivonen, hober: your input on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Aug/0004.html would be helpful
  764. # [21:15] <Hixie> hsivonen, hober: since MikeSmith is implementing, i intend to get to this as soon as i'm done with autocomplete=""
  765. # [21:15] <Hixie> which may be later tday
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  769. # [21:35] <Hixie> Stevef_: any chance i can convince you to use regular quoting style on the whatwg list? it's great that you're posting, and i'm really glad to see productive conversations going on, but your quoting style is going to make replying to all the e-mails somewhat complicated for me
  770. # [21:36] <__doc__> I'm interested to get drawing tablets to work with browsers and have some standard for that. Any idea how I can get that ball rolling?
  771. # [21:36] <Hixie> __doc__: best first step is to convince a browser vendor to add experimental support for such a feature, so we get implementation experience
  772. # [21:37] * __doc__ nods
  773. # [21:37] <Hixie> see http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Is_there_a_process_for_adding_new_features_to_a_specification.3F
  774. # [21:37] <Hixie> lunch, bbl
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  794. # [22:22] <Yuhong> Win8 just RTMed and ships with IE10: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/08/01/releasing-windows-8-august-1-2012.aspx
  795. # [22:22] <Yuhong> And on CSS style modularization of HTML, remember the "HTML5" buzzword will not disappear overnight.
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  805. # [22:42] <__doc__> and with wart shutting out competing browsers, a lot of emerging standards will yet again be held up by microsoft
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  807. # [22:44] <zewt> does adams actually represent a real vendor? now he's declaring an objection in advance, without even pretending that he's interested in discussion, and I'm inclined to ignore him, heh
  808. # [22:46] <Ms2ger> Don't think so
  809. # [22:48] <zewt> he's saying he'll "object" and that we should "deal with it now", heh
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  811. # [22:50] <Ms2ger> I read it
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  821. # [23:23] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  822. # [23:24] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.71.130.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
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  824. # [23:32] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@5ade1f41.bb.sky.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  825. # [23:32] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-222.net-80-236-80.issy.rev.numericable.fr) (Quit: Leaving.)
  826. # [23:33] * Joins: nessy (~silviapf@124-168-183-82.dyn.iinet.net.au)
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  828. # [23:38] * Niloc is now known as BennyLava
  829. # [23:42] * Quits: Yuhong (~chatzilla@50.47.177.209) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347])
  830. # [23:45] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
  831. # [23:47] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  832. # [23:49] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host86-156-113-190.range86-156.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  833. # [23:54] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  834. # [23:56] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@208.172-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Quit: nn)
  835. # Session Close: Thu Aug 02 00:00:01 2012

The end :)