/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-08-02 / end

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1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 02 00:00:01 2012
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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16. # [00:44] <zewt> well, i'm inclined to ignore him, heh
17. # [00:45] <zewt> though if somebody knows who he is it would be nice (if perhaps not useful) to know who it is that's behaving like that, heh
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19. # [00:51] <jamesr_> glenn adams?
20. # [00:51] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
21. # [00:52] <zewt> yeah
22. # [00:53] <jamesr_> my understanding is that he is (or is employeed by) a w3c member, so if he says "I OBJECT!" he has equal weight to any other member within the w3c
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24. # [00:53] <jamesr_> imo he's also more than a little bit of a nut at times, to the point where if somebody talks about something "glenn" did i have to ask "do you mean zewt or the crazy glenn?"
25. # [00:53] <zewt> well, if he's speaking on behalf of someone, i'd just be interested in knowing, since he's (in my opinion) behaving very poorly
26. # [00:54] <zewt> (now he appears to be preemptively objecting to anything that doesn't somehow magically combine blob-style access and WebSockets)
27. # [00:54] <jamesr_> i don't know what his organizational relationship is with the w3c. it's not with any browser vendor
28. # [00:54] <gsnedders> Works for Cox, though quite what Cox have to do with HTML is interestingly.
29. # [00:55] <gsnedders> *interesting
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31. # [00:55] <jamesr_> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/raw-file/tip/cssom/Overview.html lists him as working for Cox, and http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List says Cox is a W3C member
32. # [00:56] <Hixie> jamesr_: there's a difference in weight between members
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34. # [00:56] <Hixie> jamesr_: those who implement have more practical weight than those who don't :-)
35. # [00:56] <jamesr_> he's also editor on a couple css specs (and i don't think he's gone crazy there)
36. # [00:56] <zewt> all I can do is hope that in reality if the real players (eg. real-world browser vendors) like it, an objection from someone like that won't actually have much effect
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38. # [00:57] <smus> someone mentioned that <img srcset> works in Safari on iOS 6. I can't get it to work using http://smus.com/m/srcset/ (on any browser)
39. # [00:57] <zewt> (not that i wouldn't discuss it if he was making an interesting case, but all he's doing is derailing the hell out of the thread)
40. # [00:57] <jamesr_> i think he's a known entity to most browser devs, but it depends on how much they care about w3c process and whatnot. he's definitely gone nuts before in a few places and i think been mostly ignored
41. # [00:58] <jamesr_> Hixie, he can be a pain in the butt still, especially for editors/specs who are stuck with more w3c
42. # [00:59] <Hixie> i don't see how he can be a pain unless people voluntarily opt-in to the bureaucratic process
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44. # [00:59] <zewt> Hixie: that's why i'm carefully opting-out and ignoring his threat :)
45. # [00:59] <Hixie> and people who opt-in to that process are doing so of their own free will, so they deserve what they get
46. # [01:00] <Hixie> zewt: indeed
47. # [01:00] <zewt> i'll stick to the technical discussion and leave it to the politicians (so to speak) to deal with any w3c process crap later
48. # [01:00] <Hixie> ok anyone see anything wrong in the new autocomplete section?
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50. # [01:01] <paul_irish> link?
51. # [01:01] <zewt> (doing a read through)
52. # [01:01] <Hixie> paul_irish: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#autofilling-form-controls:-the-autocomplete-attribute
53. # [01:02] <Hixie> (sorry, not in multipage version yet)
54. # [01:02] <paul_irish> thx
55. # [01:03] <zewt> are locality and region intentionally vague for different regions?
56. # [01:04] <zewt> i remember having to ship USPS (iirc) to Korea, and it was a 45 minute ordeal trying to split it apart into its components, since they had separate form fields for each and I didn't know what was what
57. # [01:05] <Hixie> they're hte terms vCard uses
58. # [01:05] <zewt> for horror's sake, that address (minus street numbers) was: Mcity tower 12346, 123 Changhang-dong, Ilsandong-gu, Koyang-si, Kyonggi-do, 410-380, Korea
59. # [01:05] <Hixie> yikes
60. # [01:05] <zewt> indeed
61. # [01:05] <Hixie> yeah, having fields for address is pretty much bogus, but that's the way people do it, so...
62. # [01:05] <zewt> apparently those suffixes are roughly analogous to city, state, province, etc
63. # [01:06] <Hixie> i tried to provide generic fields where possible (name, e.g.)
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66. # [01:08] <gavinc> Hixie: I don't think cc-name makes a great deal of sense broken down, was there research on that? As far as I'm aware payment systems tend to simply take full name
67. # [01:08] <gavinc> sorry, the cc-name breakdown
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74. # [01:14] <Hixie> gavinc: i added those because http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Autocomplete_Types had them, but will investigate further...
75. # [01:15] <Hixie> https://www.teleconference.att.com/resv/help/My_Profile/Credit_Cards/Add_a_Credit_Card.htm suggests at least some forms do have them separated
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77. # [01:16] <gavinc> gah, okay, I buy it now, but still gah
78. # [01:16] <Hixie> oh i'm with you 100%
79. # [01:17] <Hixie> the regular name fields being split out is just as ridiculous
80. # [01:17] <Hixie> many people don't have more than one name
81. # [01:17] <gavinc> Yeah, but I get WHY people do it
82. # [01:17] <gavinc> for the cc... I mean, the payment gateways don't
83. # [01:17] <gavinc> and the magstrip doesn't encode it
84. # [01:18] <gavinc> so that's just really bad form design
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86. # [01:19] <zewt> the most awesome part is how it totally screws pasting in info
87. # [01:19] <gavinc> I was thinking the most awesome part being that my wife couldn't fill in the form ;)
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89. # [01:20] <Hixie> plenty of people have that problem
90. # [01:21] <Hixie> e.g. required phone number fields for people with no phones (e.g. me)
91. # [01:21] <Hixie> sex fields that only accept "male" and "female"
92. # [01:21] <Hixie> name fields that require a first and last name
93. # [01:21] <Hixie> address fields for addresses like the one zewt pasted in earlier
94. # [01:22] <zewt> heh
95. # [01:22] <zewt> my work just had to buy a cheapo cellphone
96. # [01:22] <zewt> because we need to do facebook dev, and there's no way to validate a FB account for development except a cellphone
97. # [01:22] <zewt> (landlines are out, since it assumes you can receive an SMS)
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100. # [01:25] <gavinc> Not only that but not all cell phones work
101. # [01:26] <zewt> also fun was while I was living in MA, anything sent USPS had to have the 9-digit zip code, or be delayed or lost
102. # [01:26] <zewt> ... and of course, lots of forms limit zip code entry to 5 digits
103. # [01:27] <zewt> and (if you can believe it) some of them would accept 9 digits, then they'd only use 5
104. # [01:27] <zewt> (often intentionally, eg. handwritten shipping slips, which means some idiot went "why is this guy giving me 9 digits? i'm going to save ink and only write out 5!")
105. # [01:28] <zewt> humanity is stunningly innovative in finding new ways to screw up in stupid ways :)
106. # [01:30] <gavinc> Mmm, but if the auto fill fields are specified as broken out for ccname aren't we going to be asking browser vendors to make UIs that some how have to divide up the name that for a CC really can't be?
107. # [01:30] <gavinc> wouldn't it in fact be BETTER if auto fill didn't work on pages where the cc name is broken up?
108. # [01:30] <Hixie> i'm presuming the UI would just be slurping data from other forms
109. # [01:31] <gavinc> LastPass and OnePassword are likely better examples for credit card info
110. # [01:31] <zewt> i'd think that cc billing name *has* to be a single form entry
111. # [01:32] <zewt> since you want to enter the name exactly as it is on the card, and that can eg. include or not include a middle initial
112. # [01:32] <Hixie> chrome already tries to autofill credit card info for me, and i never told it my info other than by filling in another form...
113. # [01:33] <zewt> Hixie: is it expected that some of these labels would only actually be used to say "don't remember this field at all" (eg. cc-csc)?
114. # [01:33] <zewt> (and probably in most sane cases cc-number too)
115. # [01:34] <zewt> (in terms of what browsers would do with it, I mean)
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117. # [01:38] <Hixie> why would you not remember cc-csc?
118. # [01:39] <zewt> isn't the whole point of those that they're never actually stored anywhere
119. # [01:40] <Hixie> they're stored on my card
120. # [01:40] <Hixie> why can't they be stored in my (more secure) browser?
121. # [01:40] <zewt> but not in retail databases, etc
122. # [01:40] <Hixie> nobody is saying to store it in retail databases, sure
123. # [01:40] <Hixie> we're talking about browsers here, not retail databases
124. # [01:41] <zewt> from what i understand, it's meant as an extra check that you actually have the card ... for example, so it's harder to use a cc# if you steal someone's history DB from their browser
125. # [01:41] <zewt> browsers are much more vulnerable (in the typical case) than retail databases--typical users get viruses on a daily basis, and no typical user is going to password-lock their browser
126. # [01:41] <Hixie> i am happy to run the risk that someone will steal my browser for the convenience of not having to type in this damn number over and over
127. # [01:42] <zewt> (everyone who does "mom's computer support" knows how often those things happen, heh)
128. # [01:42] <Hixie> (my laptop is a hell of a lot more secure than my wallet)
129. # [01:42] <zewt> Hixie: that's fine for you; it'd be a very seriously bad idea for more typical users
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131. # [01:42] <Hixie> well they can have it not stored if they want
132. # [01:42] <zewt> i mean, if browsers want to have an "i know what I'm doing, so store this", fine, I just don't think it'd be sane at all for most users
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136. # [01:55] <zewt> Hixie: minor: for postal-code, maybe use a 9-digit zip as the example instead of 5
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138. # [01:56] <Hixie> if you can find me tim's 9-digit code, i'll get all over that :-)
139. # [01:56] <zewt> who cares what tim's is? heh
140. # [01:57] <zewt> oh yeah. credit card type
141. # [01:57] <zewt> (visa, mastercard)
142. # [01:57] <zewt> suppose that's usually a dropdown and not a text, so maybe it doesn't need help
143. # [01:58] <Hixie> that's already there
144. # [01:58] <Hixie> it's the first digit of the cc-number field
145. # [01:58] <zewt> sure, but lots of sites ask for it separately anyway
146. # [01:59] <Hixie> true, inexplicably
147. # [01:59] <Hixie> not sure what to do about it
148. # [01:59] <Hixie> the values are probably difficult to distinguish heuristically
149. # [01:59] <zewt> well, it's explainable, it's just not for a good reason :)
150. # [01:59] <zewt> (namely, incompetence)
151. # [01:59] <Hixie> what's the reason?
152. # [01:59] <Hixie> i mean, what do they do with it?
153. # [01:59] <zewt> no idea, never written a payment service
154. # [01:59] <Hixie> heh
155. # [01:59] <zewt> (and I might not know if I had, since as you said it's redundant)
156. # [02:00] <gavinc> It is possible to not be able to accept some CC types
157. # [02:00] <gavinc> also to use diffrent payment gateways depending on type
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159. # [02:02] <zewt> are the values that difficult? there are maybe under a dozen values (at least commonly used in the US)
160. # [02:02] <zewt> er, under half a dozen
161. # [02:02] <gavinc> Oh, no
162. # [02:02] <gavinc> Easy as heck
163. # [02:02] <zewt> (asking because I'd expect it to be easy)
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165. # [02:03] <gavinc> BUT by having two fields (at least this was on POS) you can do a better job of checking if the entry of CC number worked correctly
166. # [02:03] <gavinc> if someone says the type is this, and the number is that...
167. # [02:03] <Hixie> it's literally just a number lookup: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_card_number
168. # [02:03] <zewt> cc#'s have a validation digit anyway, right?
169. # [02:04] <gavinc> I'm not claiming it's rational :P
170. # [02:04] <zewt> Hixie: i'm not saying sites should do it, just that they do :)
171. # [02:04] <Hixie> yeah, cc's have built-in check codes, see same wikipedia page
172. # [02:04] <Hixie> :-)
173. # [02:04] <zewt> (and there are a lot of values in this autocomplete feature that seem to be there based on that criteria :)
174. # [02:04] <gavinc> Yeah, it's just mod 10
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176. # [02:06] <zewt> if the autocomplete spec seemed to be trying to omit things people shouldn't be doing, to try to discourage them from doing it, then yeah it might make sense to omit credit card type too
177. # [02:06] <zewt> doesn't seem to be your goal, though...
178. # [02:06] <Hixie> the problem with credit card type is that nobody's done the research to see if the values are heuristically recognisable, nothing else
179. # [02:06] <Hixie> i have no objection to adding it if it is actually implementable
180. # [02:07] <zewt> well, the heuristic matching would probably have to be on the text of the option, not the @value
181. # [02:07] <Hixie> most pages i've seen use images
182. # [02:07] <Hixie> (anecdotally)
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186. # [02:09] <gavinc> anecdotally, lasspass and 1Password don't store type
187. # [02:09] <gavinc> and only store "Name On Card"
188. # [02:10] <gavinc> Oh!
189. # [02:10] <gavinc> That's the other value :\
190. # [02:10] <gavinc> Start Date for cc
191. # [02:10] <zewt> i'd expect most things saving this stuff to be really conservative, not wanting to be liable for breaches
192. # [02:10] <gavinc> and issue number :\
193. # [02:10] <gavinc> for Maestro cards
194. # [02:11] <Hixie> gavinc: fwiw, i'm not particularly married to the idea of keeping the name on card stuff, in fact i've been trying to contact the chrome guy who did the research for chrome to see what his opinion is on dropping it
195. # [02:11] <Hixie> haven't been able to get a hold of him yet
196. # [02:11] <Hixie> the separated cc name fields, i mean
197. # [02:11] <Hixie> adding these other fields seems reasonable, do lastpass and 1pass do them?
198. # [02:11] <gavinc> yep
199. # [02:11] <zewt> also fwiw (and also anecdotal), i can't recall ever seeing a cc form with a separated name field
200. # [02:12] <gavinc> zewt: Hixie found one :(
201. # [02:12] <Hixie> zewt: do a google search for "first name on credit card" or some such, it shows a bunch
202. # [02:12] <Hixie> the original list of fields was the result of the chrome guys doing some research into what form fields were common, fwiw
203. # [02:12] <zewt> that seems like it would fail all over the place, eg. if someone's billing name is "mr. first last" and the billing is refused if they can't enter it exactly like that
204. # [02:13] <Hixie> it's not like they're just made up :-)
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213. # [02:30] <Hixie> ok didn't quite finish autocomplete today. still have a section to add that talks about autocomplete vs inputmode vs type
214. # [02:30] <Hixie> bbiab.
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316. # [06:37] <Hixie> hey anyone understand this lazyblob thread well enough to give me an elevator pitch on what it's for and how it might theoretically affect websockets?
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318. # [06:38] <Hixie> (zewt maybe?)
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321. # [06:48] <zewt> the initial post is basically: some way to take a URL that you might fetch with eg. xhr (including origin, cookies, etc.), package that up and postMessage it somewhere else, so that the other side can load it
322. # [06:48] <zewt> i don't think it has the slightest thing to do with websockets
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325. # [06:51] <Hixie> ah, ok, excellent. thanks.
326. # [06:51] <Hixie> (interesting idea, from a technical perspective, basically a closure for a url load? what's the use case?)
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328. # [06:52] <zewt> don't recall the use cases from the OP off-hand, but i could see, for example, being able to pass a large authenticated resource (say, a movie) to another page without that page having to be given authentication info
329. # [06:53] <zewt> (specific use cases--why you'd want to do that--i don't have handy)
330. # [06:53] <Hixie> specific use cases seem rather important to the question of "why would we bother" :-)
331. # [06:53] <zewt> yep, sorry, the limits of 11:45 pm :)
332. # [06:53] <Hixie> :-)
333. # [06:54] * Hixie asks the other glenn for use cases for this websocket stuff
334. # [06:54] <Hixie> i'm happy to let this thread rathole itself when it involves specs i haven't got the time to deal with, like xhr, but when we start threatening to give me additional work i suddenly start caring about why we're having the discussion :-P
335. # [06:58] <zewt> and I'm going to go to bed before I accidentally click the "webapps (1)" tab and end up being up for another half hour wasting time responding to (as I can make a guess at who the (1) is)
336. # [06:58] <Hixie> heh
337. # [06:58] <Hixie> me, in this case, i think :-)
338. # [06:59] <zewt> less bothersome, then :)
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465. # [11:20] <hsivonen> What's the key difference between the two aria-describedby/hidden change proposals?
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504. # [11:45] * __doc__ has has his first days fill of w3c ML messages, is it always like this over there?
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507. # [11:50] <jgraham> __doc__: Depening on which list "yes" or "only when talking about a11y"
508. # [11:51] <hsivonen> Someone should make it a policy to Formally Object to compromises to make sure that other threats of Formal Objections don't lead to compromises.
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512. # [11:59] <__doc__> hsivonen: wait, what? :)
513. # [12:00] <smaug____> Ms2ger: eh, implementing session history defined in any spec? really?
514. # [12:00] <Ms2ger> More likely going to be the WHATWG spec than a TR page from years back, though
515. # [12:01] <smaug____> that is true
516. # [12:01] <smaug____> someone from Opera was going to spec session history properly, or at least test it... I wonder what happened to that
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518. # [12:03] * Ms2ger tries to remember how to declare a charset in XML
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520. # [12:06] <__doc__> Ms2ger: encoding attribute on the xml meta tag
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527. # [12:10] <hsivonen> so the Chairs decided to adopt http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/FlowContentInObject
528. # [12:10] <hsivonen> will Hixie align the WHATWG spec?
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537. # [12:31] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, do any validators care what the HTMLWG spec says?
538. # [12:33] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, the W3C validator, apparently
539. # [12:33] <AryehGregor> It has its own?
540. # [12:34] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: I'm not sure yet how much Validator.nu should care.
541. # [12:36] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: The W3C deploys a validator built from the Validator.nu code base with W3C-specific settings. For example, the W3C instance provides an option to enable non-Lite RDFa 1.1 while Validator.nu does not.
542. # [12:36] <AryehGregor> Ah, I see.
543. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: http://validator.w3.org/nu/
544. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> that is currently doing about 9.4 page validations per second, if the data from Henri's stats feature are to be believed
545. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> or around 800,000 pages per day
546. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> if my adding skills are to be believed
547. # [12:40] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: I wouldn't be too surprised if the end result was making Validator.nu follow the more permissive spec on each point where the two specs disagree.
548. # [12:41] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
549. # [12:41] <AryehGregor> It seems fairly pointless to have two different sets of authoring conformance requirements.
550. # [12:41] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: indeed
551. # [12:41] <AryehGregor> But then, I don't care much about authoring conformance requirements to start with.
552. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, I have an little idea I've been wanting to ask you about that I hope you won't think is too radical to be worth discussing.
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554. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> the idea is, don't have the validator give any kind of binary pass/fail indicator at all
555. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> in the validation results
556. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> specifically, don't have it output either the "The document validates according to the specified schema(s) and to additional constraints checked by the validator." or the "There were errors." text
557. # [12:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: That would indeed be radical. :-)
558. # [12:44] <MikeSmith> in the case of the "There were errors." text, that's already clear because the errors are displayed (unless/until we add the filtering feature)
559. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I suggest it because I think way to many people get hung up on the idea of passing or failing validation
560. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> which really is not the point
561. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> it's a distraction
562. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> and also because we are lying if we claim we can guarantee a document actually conforms to the spec
563. # [12:46] <hsivonen> I guess this would be taking the "no badge" approach to the next level.
564. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> yeah
565. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> for one thing, we know that right now, there are a significant number of conformance constraints in the spec that we are not checking
566. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> that will of course change over time as we implement those checks
567. # [12:47] <MikeSmith> also there are some constraints that are not practically machine-checkable or even machine-checkable at all
568. # [12:47] <hsivonen> The zero-message case would need some indication that the validator actually ran, though.
569. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> of course
570. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> yeah
571. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> but that would be the same generic message for the no-errors case and the has-errors cases
572. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> *case
573. # [12:49] <hsivonen> maybe it should be the message that says which conformance definition ("HTML + SVG + MathML") was used
574. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
575. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> true
576. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> it should say that as a minimum
577. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> anyway, I just wanted to put a bug in your ear about it now
578. # [12:50] <hsivonen> ok
579. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> we can talk more about it later if you think it's actually worth exploring
580. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> right now I got to take a break for a bit
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582. # [12:56] <AryehGregor> It should say something like "No errors found."
583. # [12:58] <AryehGregor> Of course, there's always the question of why we want validators anyway. To tell authors about possible errors they might not know about? To pressure authors not to do things we don't like, even if it might not be worth it to them to change? To give third parties information about how much the author cares about standards?
584. # [12:58] <AryehGregor> I have serious doubts about the usefulness of validators for any purpose other than as a lint-like tool to tell authors about possible mistkaes.
585. # [12:58] <AryehGregor> mistakes.
586. # [12:58] <AryehGregor> The major practical implication is that if that's all we care about, authors should be given a way to suppress arbitrary errors in case they don't care about them, as lint tools tend to permit (e.g., compiler warning flags).
587. # [12:59] <AryehGregor> Also, if that's the primary use, there's no real reason to have anything specified formally.
588. # [13:00] <AryehGregor> It may as well just be whatever the tool author thinks is useful.
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590. # [13:04] <karlcow> A validator tool in a publishing process (before final publication) is a bit like a compass when sailing it helps keep the route. That's the main benefit.
591. # [13:05] <AryehGregor> In that case, it should be possible for authors to disable warnings they don't care about, perhaps with special markup in the page.
592. # [13:08] <jgraham> I thought validation was a concept introduced by Microsoft to tie up people developing web tech in pointless arguments, thus preventing them working on useful features and allowing proprietary platforms to triumph
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624. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: "lint-like tool to tell authors about possible mistakes" is much closer to what validator.nu is in practice
625. # [14:31] <MikeSmith> than to traditional validator
626. # [14:31] <MikeSmith> and the rules in the spec can be seen as best-practice linting rules
627. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> with the idea that it's useful to have some standard best-practice linting rules for validators to converge on
628. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: as far as "authors should be given a way to suppress arbitrary errors in case they don't care about them", you should take a look at http://validator.keegan.st/ if you've not already
629. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> that allows you to show/hide/filter messages as you'd like
630. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> and the choices are persistent
631. # [14:34] <MikeSmith> once you tell it you don't want to see a certain type/class of error, you won't see that error message for any further documents you check
632. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: details at http://keegan.st/2012/05/28/filtering-html5-validator-errors/
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643. # [15:22] <hsivonen> java.lang.NoSuchMethodError when lauching code in Eclipse that Eclipse was happy to compile
644. # [15:23] <Ms2ger> Heh, Java
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649. # [15:32] <Stevef_> hixie: re quoting style, point me to your preferred and I will use it (emailed you offline about it yesterday as was not near an IRC client)
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651. # [15:33] <Stevef_> Mikesmith: are there any stats for the traditional validation service? http://validator.w3.org/ i would imagine that would be doing a lot of business
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654. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> Stevef_: there probably are some stats but I've not seen them. I'll ask the systems team
655. # [15:36] <MikeSmith> but would guess it's a few million page validations per day
656. # [15:36] <Stevef_> mieksmith: thanks was suprised by the w3c nu markup service numbers
657. # [15:36] <MikeSmith> yeah I was surprised too
658. # [15:36] <Stevef_> yeah thats what i was thinking, well I have been promoting the nu service... ;-)
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665. # [15:47] <hsivonen> It turns out that I can't have GWT and HttpClient in the runtime deps at the same time
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671. # [15:56] <david_carlisle> trackbot, start telcon
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675. # [15:57] <david_carlisle> oops sorry
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736. # [17:14] <jgraham> Hmm I just realised that the tests I was writing are supposed to only work in a top level browsing context, but seem to work fine in an iframe
737. # [17:15] <jgraham> Hixie: If I have a non-top-level browsing context why don't the steps for storing (and hence restoring) a browsing context name happen?
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742. # [17:25] <Stevef_> q+
743. # [17:26] <MikeSmith> Stevef_: wrong channel hombre
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746. # [17:31] * Stevef_ sorry
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763. # [18:04] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
764. # [18:04] <Hixie> jgraham: good question, didn't realise iframes could change names
765. # [18:05] <jgraham> Hixie: Well they have a browsing context and it has a name, right?
766. # [18:06] <jgraham> So window.name="foo" in the iframe changes that name?
767. # [18:06] <Hixie> yeah but i always thought it as the name in the <iframe name="">, didn't think of window.name for iframes
768. # [18:06] <Hixie> purely an oversight on my part
769. # [18:06] <jgraham> Ah, OK :)
770. # [18:06] <jgraham> I was just checking that I didn't miss anything important here
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772. # [18:07] <Hixie> hsivonen: the <object> decision results in allowing non-sensical markup, it was in fact a bug in HTML4 that we intentionally fixed, so no, i have no plans to adopt that proposal. (see recent meme)
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774. # [18:08] <Hixie> jgraham: send a mail or file a bug or something? (i assume it's just a matter of removing a restriction in the spec?)
775. # [18:08] <jgraham> Hixie: Sure, I think it is just removing a few words
776. # [18:08] <Hixie> k
777. # [18:09] <Hixie> Stevef_: i just meant the style everyone else uses, where quotes are indented with > rather than marked with "..."
778. # [18:09] <Stevef_> hixie: ok got it
779. # [18:09] <Hixie> thanks
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782. # [18:10] <Hixie> (it's mentioned near the end of the whatwg faq, fwiw, including some links to software that can fix the problem in some clients like outlook)
783. # [18:13] <jgraham> Hixie: Bug filed, but I missed my window of oppertunity for the popup so now I will have to search for it
784. # [18:13] <Hixie> heh
785. # [18:13] <odinho> lol
786. # [18:13] <Hixie> 18470
787. # [18:13] <odinho> fix (y)our ua ;-)
788. # [18:13] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18470
789. # [18:13] <Hixie> and thanks :-)
790. # [18:15] <jgraham> Thanks for finding my lost and lonely bug
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799. # [18:32] <Hixie> jgraham: it was easy, it was the one at the end of the list :-)
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840. # [20:10] <Hixie> good lord, unicode updated their cldr with a boatload of new data
841. # [20:11] * ojan_away is now known as ojan
842. # [20:11] <ojan> MikeSmith: I'm told you're the one to talk to about problems with the w3.org email servers...is that true?
843. # [20:11] <Ms2ger> Good first guess, at least
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845. # [20:12] <ojan> www-style email has been getting delayed by days for me and a few others for the past couple months
846. # [20:12] <ojan> i've already talked to gmail folk, and it looks like the problem is on the w3.org side
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867. # [20:57] <Hixie> Lachy: what's the status on the about: spec?
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869. # [20:57] <Lachy> I don't know yet. I still need to figure out if the IETF draft can be salvaged.
870. # [20:57] * Ms2ger would assume not
871. # [20:58] <Hixie> so I should ignore the about: registry that julian talks about in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18365 ?
872. # [20:58] <Lachy> yes
873. # [20:58] <Hixie> roger
874. # [20:58] <Lachy> it's quick and easy to register it though, so it won't hurt. I just wouldn't consider it essential.
875. # [20:59] <Lachy> Tell Julian he can register the schemes if he cares that much.
876. # [20:59] <Lachy> s/schemes/tokens/
877. # [20:59] <Hixie> oh, wow, that is simpler than i expected
878. # [20:59] <Hixie> i can do those i guess
879. # [20:59] <Hixie> any idea where i send it?
880. # [21:01] <Lachy> yes, one sec.
881. # [21:01] <Lachy> this form http://www.iana.org/cgi-bin/assignments.pl or send mail to iana@iana.org
882. # [21:01] <Lachy> I think that's the right address
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884. # [21:02] <Hixie> a form even! they've moved from the 80s to the 90s, i see
885. # [21:02] <Hixie> thanks
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887. # [21:06] <Lachy> my only real problem with the registry now is that is implies some sort of exclusivity to registered tokens. Whereas about URLs should be regarded as non-resolvable addresses, which may have entirely context specific interpretations
888. # [21:08] <Lachy> that would eliminate any possibility of conflict if two entirely independent specs happened to use the same token.
889. # [21:11] <Hixie> ah
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897. # [21:23] <Hixie> ok i've gone through HTMLWG bugs filed up to august 1st and cloned any that looked like they were valid
898. # [21:24] <Hixie> (who wants to bet the htmlwg never does that for the other direction yet continues to claim they care about fixing all known issue...)
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925. # [22:50] <Ms2ger> w3c: HTML WG Chairs announce editorial team for the W3C Canvas 2D Context specification http://t.co/u0FCQLpi
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928. # [22:55] <jesusruiz> hi, group!
929. # [22:57] <jesusruiz> one question, i am writing a book and before publishing it I have to clarify one issue:
930. # [22:57] <jesusruiz> Is it true the news that the WHATWG has separated from the W3C?
931. # [22:58] <jesusruiz> I read on some website, which will be two html5
932. # [22:59] * smaug____ kicks Google hard
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934. # [23:01] <jgraham> jesusruiz: The WHATWG and W3C will work on different versions of HTML, yes
935. # [23:01] <jgraham> WHATWG will be focused on fixing bugs and adding new features
936. # [23:01] <jgraham> W3C will be trying to keep lawyers happy
937. # [23:02] <jgraham> By getting to Rec. which is needed for the W3C Patent Policy to kick in
938. # [23:02] <jesusruiz> thanks jgraham
939. # [23:03] <jgraham> That requires stability and an elaborate consensus-based decision making process
940. # [23:03] <jesusruiz> much time working "together" for nothing, Mother of God O_o
941. # [23:03] <jgraham> Or at least it seems to involve such an elaborate process, it isn't clear that it requires it
942. # [23:04] <jesusruiz> :( another chaos in the web, return to the war: (
943. # [23:05] <jgraham> Not really chaos
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945. # [23:06] <jgraham> There is only really a problem if the UA conformance requirements are different in the two versions (other than through W3C refusing to fix a bug in version 5 in the name of stability)
946. # [23:07] <jgraham> Author conformance requirements being differnt affects validator authors and authors that read the spec (i.e. none of them)
947. # [23:07] <jesusruiz> good, chaos may appear, if each browser uses one or another specification.
948. # [23:08] * Parts: Lisv (~zael@pD9FC491D.dip.t-dialin.net)
949. # [23:08] <jesusruiz> at least that support both specifications.
950. # [23:09] <jgraham> It will be very surprising if browsers do differnt things; compatibility is good for the platform and so good for browser vendors
951. # [23:09] <jesusruiz> but of course, the end is always the problem for webmasters.
952. # [23:09] <jgraham> I expect most browser vendors to follow the WHATWG spec by necessity
953. # [23:09] <jgraham> It will be more accurate and have more features that they need to keep up with the competition
954. # [23:10] <jesusruiz> Yes, I agree. :)
955. # [23:14] <Hixie> hsivonen: you around?
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958. # [23:16] <jesusruiz> Hixie: save the web! ;)
959. # [23:16] <jesusruiz> W3C bad! :)
960. # [23:17] <Hixie> not up to me, it's up to the vendors :-)
961. # [23:17] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yt?
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978. # Session Close: Fri Aug 03 00:00:00 2012

The end :)