/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-08-23 / end

Options:

# Session Start: Thu Aug 23 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:02] * Quits: charlvn (~charlvn@charlvn.nl) (Quit: leaving)
# [00:08] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.98.146) (Quit: othermaciej)
# [00:10] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
# [00:10] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
# [00:14] * Quits: gwicke (~gabriel@wikimedia/gwicke) (Quit: Bye!)
# [00:15] * Joins: gwicke (~gabriel@wikimedia/gwicke)
# [00:15] <Hixie> hober: no
# [00:15] <Hixie> hober: why?
# [00:20] * Joins: timeless_ (users.4015@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kunjpmdtwueeimkp)
# [00:21] <hober> Hixie: just wondering. a coworker's subscription took longer than he thought it would; probably just an email hiccup
# [00:21] * Quits: timeless (users.4015@firefox/developer/timeless) (Disconnected by services)
# [00:21] * timeless_ is now known as timeless
# [00:21] * Quits: timeless (users.4015@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kunjpmdtwueeimkp) (Changing host)
# [00:21] * Joins: timeless (users.4015@firefox/developer/timeless)
# [00:24] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@2620:101:8003:200:226:bbff:fe05:3fe1) (Quit: Reconnecting…)
# [00:24] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@2620:101:8003:200:226:bbff:fe05:3fe1)
# [00:28] * Quits: Areks (~Areks@128-69-102-87.broadband.corbina.ru) (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
# [00:30] <Hixie> hober: weird
# [00:30] <Hixie> hober: the only moderation action i take is with messages > 40kb, and those i mostly only allow if they're mine :-)
# [00:30] <hober> *nod*
# [00:31] <Hixie> (those that aren't usually are 40kb of quoted content with top-posting, which is against the mailing list etiquette)
# [00:31] <Hixie> anyone remember what the bug is where i talked about appcache having a js-driven "server"?
# [00:31] <Hixie> i can't find it
# [00:33] * Parts: akaroa (~Dean@203.184.22.238)
# [00:36] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.108.176)
# [00:40] * Quits: ChrisWilson (~Adium@216.239.55.199) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [00:45] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [00:45] <Hixie> Truncation operations cannot be performed if the session holds an active table lock
# [00:45] * Quits: henrikkok (~henrikkok@3306ds3-amb.0.fullrate.dk) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [00:45] <Hixie> wtf
# [00:46] <Hixie> well, i guess jgraham better not ever call this reentrantly
# [00:51] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
# [00:54] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.108.176) (Quit: othermaciej)
# [00:56] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
# [00:56] * Quits: victrola` (~decadance@69.73.175.77) (Quit: leaving)
# [00:57] * Joins: victrola` (~decadance@69.73.175.77)
# [00:58] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@c-36dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: tomasf)
# [01:05] * Joins: skimmas (~skimmas@2.82.103.3)
# [01:05] * Quits: isherman (isherman@nat/google/x-jxgtalpomqrrnltm) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [01:08] * Quits: espadrine (~thaddee_t@63-235-13-3.dia.static.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [01:12] * Joins: Delapouite (~Delapouit@dsl-58-6-19-17.wa.westnet.com.au)
# [01:16] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
# [01:17] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.108.176)
# [01:18] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.108.176) (Client Quit)
# [01:18] * Joins: isherman (isherman@nat/google/x-cvxxpvuybovxirvn)
# [01:18] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.108.176)
# [01:21] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [01:21] <Hixie> jgraham: ok, server-side is done, now working on client side.
# [01:27] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@66-87-2-44.pools.spcsdns.net)
# [01:30] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@66-87-2-44.pools.spcsdns.net) (Client Quit)
# [01:32] * Joins: ChrisWilson (Adium@nat/google/x-vtoujdjbfbvrtzkd)
# [01:33] <jacobolus> re: http://www.w3.org/TR/compositing/#blendingnonseparable
# [01:33] <jacobolus> is there some reason why Photoshop’s arbitrary and idiosyncratic compositing modes are being copied?
# [01:34] <Hixie> jacobolus: because the editor is from adobe? :-)
# [01:34] <Hixie> (client-side done as well, now i just have to debug it all...)
# [01:35] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.193.125.getinternet.no) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
# [01:35] <jacobolus> Hixie: I mean, I guess this is great if someone wants to use a browser to preview PSD documents
# [01:35] <jacobolus> but these blend modes are based on what could be done quickly on early-1990s computer hardware
# [01:36] <Hixie> you have to ask the editor
# [01:36] <zewt> many of photoshop's blending modes are useful and if they're going to put them all under a patent disclaimer then cool, go for it
# [01:36] <Hixie> (i don't think rik hangs out here)
# [01:37] <jacobolus> doing a sum of .30 * R + .59 * G + .11 * B, for gamma-adjusted R, G, B, is based on the primaries used in the Adobe RGB space
# [01:37] <jacobolus> but only actually properly yields luminance for linear RGB, not gamma adjusted
# [01:38] <Hixie> it seems unsurprising to me that a spec from someone at adobe would be based on adobe's stuff...
# [01:38] <zewt> (it's also the most useful thing if you're handed a PSD from an artist using random blend modes and told to recreate it dynamically)
# [01:38] <jacobolus> the word “luminance” is something that was made up by Adobe, is given several incompatible definitions in photoshop, and has no external technical meaning
# [01:39] <jacobolus> and their definition of “saturation” here is also not used the same way in any other context
# [01:39] <zewt> (hint: opengl uses it all over the place)
# [01:39] <zewt> (also hint: complaining in here isn't going to do anything :)
# [01:39] <jacobolus> opengl is also based on early-1990s photoshop? bleh.
# [01:40] <Hixie> if you just want to get it off your chest, please do go on, ranting here is always welcome. :-) but as zewt says, if you want to affect the spec, your time may be better spent e-mailing the spec's editor or the lists mentioned in the spec's status section
# [01:41] <Hixie> (please don't take this as a suggestion to shut up though)
# [01:41] <jacobolus> :)
# [01:41] <jacobolus> I guess I don't really care what goes in the spec. not like there isn't plenty of other legacy garbage in the web tech stack
# [01:41] <cabanier> hey
# [01:42] <cabanier> you don't like the spec?
# [01:42] <othermaciej> jacobolus: I don't really fully understand blend modes or why they are separate from compositing operators
# [01:42] <jacobolus> othermaciej: those two terms are synonyms in most contexts :)
# [01:42] <jacobolus> othermaciej: “blend mode” is photoshop’s word for it
# [01:42] <othermaciej> jacobolus: well, not in this spec or in photoshop
# [01:42] <othermaciej> they are sort of orthogonal
# [01:43] <jacobolus> ..?
# [01:43] <othermaciej> (maybe I am wrong about photoshop)
# [01:43] <cabanier> read the specification. It talks why they are different
# [01:43] <othermaciej> you can have a blend mode of multiply and a compositing operator of dest-atop
# [01:43] <cabanier> blending = how colors combine
# [01:43] <cabanier> compositing = how you treat alpha
# [01:43] <Hixie> oh hey, rik _does_ hang out here
# [01:43] <Hixie> go figure!
# [01:43] <Hixie> hey rik!
# [01:43] <cabanier> :-)
# [01:44] <jacobolus> othermaciej: fine. that's kind of irrelevant to my point, and that's a kind of idiosyncratic set of definitions, but it's no big deal
# [01:44] <zewt> (also it's 2012, can we not put "1.0" at the end of spec names)
# [01:44] <Hixie> jacobolus: i take it back, ranting here is productive after all :-)
# [01:44] <othermaciej> a blend function takes src and dest color components as input, and gives a color (ignoring alpha) as output
# [01:44] <othermaciej> so Cblended = B(Cs, Cd)
# [01:44] <othermaciej> compositing functions also take into account alpha
# [01:44] * PrgmrBill^ is now known as PrgmrBill
# [01:45] <othermaciej> so Ccomposited = C(Cs, As, Cd, Ad)
# [01:45] * Quits: PrgmrBill (~PrgmrBill@prgmrbill.com) (Changing host)
# [01:45] * Joins: PrgmrBill (~PrgmrBill@unaffiliated/prgmrbill)
# [01:45] <othermaciej> and if you have both, then you use the blend output as the source input to the compositing operator
# [01:45] <othermaciej> which strikes me as somewhat weird
# [01:45] <jacobolus> othermaciej: okay, let me rephrase my original comment then... is there some reason why Photoshop’s arbitrary and idiosyncratic compo^H^H^H^H^Hblend modes are being copied?
# [01:45] <cabanier> yes
# [01:46] <cabanier> they are widely implemented
# [01:46] <othermaciej> jacobolus: I find the whole thing mysterious, but I am not enough of a graphics expert to know if there is a better approach to this sort of thing, or if this is the industry standard
# [01:46] <cabanier> PDF, Skia, coregraphics, win8 direct2d,
# [01:46] <zewt> jacobolus: another hint: everyone who works long in graphics (of any type, including ui) has an understanding of them
# [01:46] <cabanier> Firefox
# [01:46] <cabanier> etc
# [01:46] <jacobolus> cabanier: "luminosity", "hue", "color" etc. modes are implemented all those places?
# [01:46] <cabanier> they were also in the SVG spec (but were never implemented)
# [01:47] <jacobolus> I find that hard to believe
# [01:47] <cabanier> core graphic and win8 has them for sure
# [01:47] <jacobolus> okay, apparently they're in PDF
# [01:47] <cabanier> What is it that you don't like about them?
# [01:47] <zewt> implemented color burn and several others in opengl a long time ago, heh https://svn.stepmania.com/svn/trunk/stepmania/Data/Shaders/GLSL/Color%20burn.frag
# [01:48] <jacobolus> cabanier: they're arbitrary and produce bad results
# [01:48] <cabanier> Designers already know about them
# [01:48] <cabanier> standard teaching in design schools
# [01:48] <jacobolus> they should have been fixed in photoshop as soon as the hardware could keep up, which was about 10 years ago
# [01:48] <cabanier> jacobolus: do you have more info? Why do they produce bad results?
# [01:48] <jacobolus> now unfortunately people are going to be stuck with technical choices made for the constraints of 20 years ago, into the foreseeable future
# [01:49] <Hixie> like 80 character line length limits? :-D
# [01:49] <zewt> Hixie: *rage*
# [01:49] <cabanier> they were introduced in 98 or so
# [01:49] <Hixie> zewt: but what if i want to save my code to punchcard!!!!
# [01:49] <cabanier> please let me know if you have a better idea
# [01:49] <jacobolus> cabanier: because .30R + .59G + .11B, when R, G, and B are gamma-adjusted sRGB, is an entirely nonsensical quantity
# [01:49] <zewt> (if I see one more person writing python in 80-columns because they unquestioningly followed the drek that is PEP-8 i will launch them into space)
# [01:50] <gavinc> ASCII being the most annoying, like no one thought maybe Iñtërnâtiônàlizætiøn would be important
# [01:50] <cabanier> so, you don't like the non-separable ones?
# [01:50] <jacobolus> they don't correspond to human vision, they don't correspond to any technical device
# [01:51] <jacobolus> they're quantities made up by adobe for the constraints of early 1990s computers
# [01:51] <cabanier> it's a reasonable formula.
# [01:51] <jacobolus> no, it's not a reasonable formula
# [01:51] <cabanier> As long as everyone implements it the same, the designer's choice will look the same
# [01:51] <jacobolus> it's a formula that tells people (by the names used) that it's doing one thing, while in fact it does another
# [01:51] <cabanier> there is no arguing about color math
# [01:51] <jacobolus> that's great. but it sucks for all the designers involved, who end up with unintuitive dreck
# [01:52] <cabanier> you think they are doing the math in their heads?
# [01:52] <zewt> jacobolus: the point is that artists want something to look a certain way, and they use blend functions to achieve the look they want; that's their primary purpose
# [01:52] <cabanier> they just used their tools/browsers until they like what they see
# [01:52] <jacobolus> zewt: you got it. but my point is, what they want is not actually what they're getting
# [01:52] <zewt> they're looking at what they're getting and going "yep. looks like what I want." which means they have what they want. that's really how it works :)
# [01:53] <jacobolus> zewt: I mean, okay, in some sense that's true
# [01:53] <zewt> it's the basic gap between artistic design and technical design
# [01:53] * Joins: Necrathex (~Necrathex@195-240-192-16.ip.telfort.nl)
# [01:53] <cabanier> people don't like that you muck with their colors. Adobe has made that mistake in the past.
# [01:53] <jacobolus> it's a basic gap caused by shitty programming, because the dimensions involved don't correspond to human vision
# [01:54] <gavinc> jacobolus: err, I don't think those are Adobe's those at least look like sRGB's numbers
# [01:54] <cabanier> We've given up on most of the complex color math if you use default setting
# [01:54] <jacobolus> gavinc: they're based on the primaries used by the Adobe RGB color space
# [01:54] <jacobolus> gavinc: but don't make any sense for gamma-corrected components
# [01:54] <gavinc> jacobolus: Are you sure? Those look like the primaries for sRGB
# [01:54] <jacobolus> gavinc: yes, I'm sure
# [01:55] <gavinc> jacobolus: okay :D
# [01:55] <jacobolus> gavinc: the equivalents for the primaries used by sRGB would be .21 * R + .72 * G + .07 * B
# [01:55] <gavinc> jacobolus: ah, yes. my mistake
# [01:56] <zewt> (no, the gap between technical and artistic work is that one generally has a "right answer" and the other is entirely subjective; this applies fairly universally)
# [01:58] <jacobolus> zewt: if I sat you down with image editing software that was properly based on human-relevant color dimensions, and then put you back on current software, you'd throw a fit, because there is a night and day difference
# [01:58] <cabanier> jacobolus: please post on www-style if you have ideas on making the spec better.
# [01:58] <jacobolus> cabanier: I think it's a lost cause
# [01:58] <Hixie> were there people other than hsivonen who were against the way <template> parses into a separate doc?
# [01:58] <cabanier> jacobolus: we've been there. everyone hated it
# [01:59] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.108.176) (Quit: othermaciej)
# [01:59] <cabanier> jacobolus: the vast majority of people didn't understand it
# [01:59] <cabanier> jacobolus: hardly anyone could print it
# [01:59] <jacobolus> cabanier: basically, the quick decisions made by some guys at adobe one afternoon are destined to live on to eternity :)
# [01:59] <jacobolus> what is "it"?
# [02:00] <jacobolus> people didn't understand what?
# [02:00] <zewt> jacobolus: maybe, maybe not--it doesn't matter because every artist I've ever worked with uses PS and expects output to be what they see
# [02:00] <cabanier> jacobolus: device independent workflows. Everything icc based
# [02:00] <cabanier> zewt: exactly!
# [02:00] <jacobolus> cabanier: what does ICC profiles have to do with anything?
# [02:01] <zewt> cabanier: btw. no vivid light? heh
# [02:01] <zewt> (guess it's been a long time since I've been handed a PSD using that)
# [02:01] <jacobolus> for anyone keeping score, I drew some nice diagrams and so forth at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSL_and_HSV which calls the dimensions involved in these blend modes “chroma” and “luma”
# [02:01] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [02:01] <jacobolus> though again, those aren't ideal names
# [02:01] <cabanier> zewt: I keep asking people if they want all the PS blend modes but I get no feedback
# [02:02] * Joins: jondong (~jondong@123.126.22.58)
# [02:02] <zewt> https://svn.stepmania.com/svn/trunk/stepmania/Data/Shaders/GLSL/Vivid%20light.frag don't recall what effect i implemented that for, though
# [02:02] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@c-76-115-51-221.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
# [02:02] * jondong is now known as Guest40453
# [02:03] <jacobolus> cabanier: do you have any ins w/ people working on photoshop? can you tell them to add "exclusion" blend mode for files in CIELAB mode?
# [02:03] <jacobolus> the combination of linear light mode + exclusion mode is one of the most powerful tools in photoshop (albeit entirely unused by anyone)
# [02:04] <gavinc> possibly horribly wrong statement: I'm pretty sure .30R + .59G + .11B is a great deal older then anything at Adobe my memory (which has already proved faulty) is that it's from YUV used in PAL and NTSC but I may be totally wrong on that, my color math is bit a rusty and was mostly for print
# [02:06] <cabanier> From the postscript (!) manual: the gray value for a given RGB value is computed according to the NTSC video standard. This standard determines how a color television signal is rendered on a black-and-white television set.
# [02:06] * Joins: pablof (~pablof@216.239.55.193)
# [02:06] <gavinc> Okay, NOT crazy
# [02:06] <cabanier> you were right on! impressive!
# [02:06] <jacobolus> gavinc: NTSC and Adobe RGB use similar primaries
# [02:07] <jacobolus> not quite identical
# [02:07] <jacobolus> gavinc: but that's beside the point
# [02:08] <jacobolus> which is that images on the web are specified to be sRGB
# [02:08] <jacobolus> and that adding linear combinations of gamma-encoded quantities yields nonsensical results
# [02:09] <gavinc> okay, I think I mostly agree with that. But would need to put a great deal more color math back in my head before agreeing fully
# [02:11] * Joins: selfmadepsyche1 (~megan@ool-18bae483.dyn.optonline.net)
# [02:11] <jacobolus> also, max(R, G, B) - min(R, G, B) is an extremely bad proxy for the perceived attribute chroma (which is similar to saturation, but the two have different technical definitions)
# [02:12] <zewt> (if these don't match PS then I'd probably never use them, because they'd be incompatible with every art asset our artist hands me)
# [02:13] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-222.net-80-236-80.issy.rev.numericable.fr) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [02:13] <jacobolus> zewt: it's a sad world, right? Adobe can never change their software, because it wouldn't be backward compatible. everyone else has to copy photoshop, or it wouldn't be interoperable
# [02:13] <jacobolus> zewt: and so technical decisions that make no sense in 2012 are entirely impossible to change, ever
# [02:14] <cabanier> jacobolus: people don't want us to change it. There would be an all-out revolt.
# [02:14] <zewt> it makes perfect technical sense, in the context of the real world
# [02:15] <jacobolus> it's just sad, because color is a place where these decisions actually negatively impact every user who tries to create images with them
# [02:15] <cabanier> jacobolus: we can add things
# [02:15] <jacobolus> a lot of technical decisions can be papered over and never seen by the user
# [02:15] <cabanier> jacobolus: like I said, with color, with pulled most of the features because everyone hated it and turned it off
# [02:15] <zewt> (yet there's been no revolt when photoshop changed to stop allowing the navigator to navigate outside the border of the image, which screwed up a bunch of my usage habits; maybe I can pay a mob to revolt for me)
# [02:15] * Quits: ap_ (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:d0:a6a1:bd2:a193) (Quit: ap_)
# [02:16] <cabanier> jacobolus: turning it off was harder than the math. A lot of special case code
# [02:16] <jacobolus> zewt: oh really? that was one of my favorite photoshop changes of all time :)
# [02:16] <zewt> it's horrible; I used it all the time to edit around the edge, now it's impossible to even see the edge of the image that way (since it falls underneat the toolbars)
# [02:16] <jacobolus> cabanier: I don't know what specifically you're talking about here
# [02:16] <zewt> also underneath
# [02:17] <jacobolus> zewt: wait, what?
# [02:17] <jacobolus> zewt: dude, press the "F" key
# [02:17] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.108.176)
# [02:17] <zewt> i work in fullscreen 100% of the time
# [02:17] <jacobolus> zewt: sorry, I thought you meant the change the other direction
# [02:17] <zewt> did they fix that in cs6 or something?
# [02:18] <jacobolus> could you move past the corners in a document in a window, ever?
# [02:18] <zewt> definitely ... up until something like cs2
# [02:18] <jacobolus> oh, bummer
# [02:18] <zewt> (and you still can by manually dragging around, the navigator just clips at the edge)
# [02:19] <jacobolus> yeah, that's terrible
# [02:19] <cabanier> jacobolus: I'm technically still on the photoshop team. I can ask them why that decision was made.
# [02:19] * Quits: timeless (users.4015@firefox/developer/timeless) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [02:19] <jacobolus> zewt: for some reason I remember that one of the two fullscreen modes used to not to past the edge. but I could be inventing that in my head
# [02:20] <jacobolus> cabanier: doesn't really affect me, but apparently zewt didn't like it :)
# [02:20] <jacobolus> cabanier: if you can bug them about exclusion mode in CIELAB images though... :)
# [02:20] * Joins: timeless (users.4015@firefox/developer/timeless)
# [02:21] <jacobolus> cabanier: also, if you're working on this css compositing spec, you should add 'linear light' mode if it can be easily done
# [02:21] <cabanier> jacobolus: I will do so. there must be a reason that they grayed it out
# [02:21] <cabanier> jacobolus: ask for it on www-style.
# [02:21] <jacobolus> cabanier: the reason is that it's not thought to be meaningful for A/B channels, since they never get close to the extremes
# [02:22] <jacobolus> and so combining two arbitrary images ends up with uninteresting looking results
# [02:22] <cabanier> have to go...
# [02:22] <zewt> run, run, run
# [02:22] <jacobolus> cabanier: but exclusion mode is a building block, not a tool to be used alone
# [02:22] <jacobolus> cheers
# [02:23] <jacobolus> cabanier: anyway, linear light mode. pretty much my favorite blend mode after "normal"
# [02:24] * Quits: timeless (users.4015@firefox/developer/timeless) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [02:25] <jacobolus> gavinc: you're right, it's the Rec 601 primaries (NTSC) used for this formula, now that I think back about it
# [02:26] <gavinc> yay, so it wasn't a choice made in the 90s! It's a choice made in the 70s!
# [02:27] <jacobolus> I don't think there was any software image compositing in the 70s
# [02:27] <jacobolus> still a choice made in the 90s :)
# [02:27] <jacobolus> well, actually of course there was software image compositing in the 70s
# [02:27] <jacobolus> but I don't think with these particular "blend modes" anyhow
# [02:28] <jacobolus> anyway, I gotta run too
# [02:28] <jacobolus> Hixie: sorry to crud up your channel there for a bit
# [02:28] <jacobolus> :)
# [02:31] * Joins: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@190.244.73.31)
# [02:32] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [02:34] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
# [02:35] * Quits: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@190.244.73.31) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [02:37] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
# [02:39] * Joins: othermaciej_ (~mjs@17.245.108.176)
# [02:41] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.108.176) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
# [02:41] * Quits: Yudai (~Yudai@nttkyo090207.tkyo.nt.ngn2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
# [02:41] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
# [02:41] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
# [02:42] * Joins: Yudai (~Yudai@nttkyo090207.tkyo.nt.ngn2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp)
# [02:45] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
# [02:46] * Quits: dgathright (~dgathrigh@nat/yahoo/x-kvtwoxvflrjmyuiq) (Quit: dgathright)
# [02:56] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@69.165.253.118)
# [02:58] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@c-76-115-51-221.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: tantek)
# [02:59] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
# [03:02] * Joins: jryans (~jryans@cpe-70-124-81-135.austin.res.rr.com)
# [03:04] * Joins: dave_levin (dave_levin@nat/google/x-jpvgaqlfxcgzzjco)
# [03:08] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@2620:101:8003:200:99b8:d79c:490c:bbe1) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [03:11] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@2620:101:8003:200:99b8:d79c:490c:bbe1)
# [03:15] * Quits: pablof (~pablof@216.239.55.193) (Quit: ^z)
# [03:16] * Quits: ChrisWilson (Adium@nat/google/x-vtoujdjbfbvrtzkd) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [03:17] * Joins: hongymagic (~hongymagi@exchange.gruden.com)
# [03:19] * Quits: gwicke (~gabriel@wikimedia/gwicke) (Quit: Bye!)
# [03:20] * Joins: timeless (users.4015@firefox/developer/timeless)
# [03:24] * Quits: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB1A35.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [03:25] * Joins: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB1A29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
# [03:26] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.108.176) (Quit: othermaciej)
# [03:27] * Joins: hongymagic1 (~hongymagi@exchange.gruden.com)
# [03:28] * Quits: hongymagic (~hongymagi@exchange.gruden.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [03:33] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.108.176)
# [03:37] * Joins: espadrine (~thaddee_t@nat/mozilla/x-lrmstwpybacmypoz)
# [03:40] * Quits: dave_levin (dave_levin@nat/google/x-jpvgaqlfxcgzzjco) (Quit: dave_levin)
# [03:41] * Quits: jryans (~jryans@cpe-70-124-81-135.austin.res.rr.com) (Quit: Be back later)
# [03:46] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
# [03:49] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@173-228-64-81.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
# [03:51] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@s1106067.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
# [03:54] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106067.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [03:54] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
# [03:58] * Joins: akaroa (~Dean@203.184.22.238)
# [04:01] * Quits: asmodai (asmodai@freebsd/developer/asmodai) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [04:02] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@2620:101:8003:200:99b8:d79c:490c:bbe1) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [04:04] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-dfyhdldsoezbtvie) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
# [04:04] * Joins: asmodai (asmodai@freebsd/developer/asmodai)
# [04:04] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-amzefhklfdqrgjdi) (Quit: rniwa)
# [04:05] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@2620:101:8003:200:226:bbff:fe05:3fe1) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [04:16] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@60.234.66.20)
# [04:18] * Quits: hongymagic1 (~hongymagi@exchange.gruden.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [04:18] * Joins: hongymagic (~hongymagi@exchange.gruden.com)
# [04:28] * Quits: rwaldron (~rwaldron@209-6-71-27.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [04:29] * Parts: akaroa (~Dean@203.184.22.238)
# [04:30] * Joins: akaroa (~Dean@203.184.22.238)
# [04:32] * Quits: bckenny (bckenny@nat/google/x-hsgsndatapaebrax) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [04:34] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.108.176) (Quit: othermaciej)
# [04:35] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@69.165.253.118) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [04:42] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
# [04:42] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
# [04:47] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [04:50] * Quits: hongymagic (~hongymagi@exchange.gruden.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [04:50] * Joins: hongymagic (~hongymagi@exchange.gruden.com)
# [04:54] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
# [05:03] * Joins: briansloane (~briansloa@c-24-127-191-222.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
# [05:09] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@173-228-64-81.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [05:12] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: :tiuQ tiuq sah woclrak)
# [05:12] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
# [05:13] * Joins: rwaldron (~rwaldron@209-6-71-27.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com)
# [05:13] * Joins: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@190.244.73.31)
# [05:18] * Quits: rwaldron (~rwaldron@209-6-71-27.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com) (Client Quit)
# [05:18] * Quits: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@190.244.73.31) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [05:19] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-222.net-80-236-80.issy.rev.numericable.fr)
# [05:22] * Joins: rick- (~rwaldron@209-6-71-27.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com)
# [05:23] * Joins: kennyluck (d39d8e02@gateway/web/freenode/ip.211.157.142.2)
# [05:29] * Quits: kennyluck (d39d8e02@gateway/web/freenode/ip.211.157.142.2) (Quit: Page closed)
# [05:29] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@173-228-64-81.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
# [05:33] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [05:35] * Quits: selfmadepsyche1 (~megan@ool-18bae483.dyn.optonline.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [05:41] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@s1106067.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
# [05:43] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106067.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [05:43] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
# [05:51] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [05:52] * Quits: rick- (~rwaldron@209-6-71-27.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [05:54] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@173-228-64-81.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [06:18] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
# [06:28] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@69.165.253.118)
# [06:32] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
# [06:34] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [06:35] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
# [06:36] * Joins: tomasf (~tom@c-36dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
# [06:36] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@c-36dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Client Quit)
# [06:41] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@s1106067.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
# [06:43] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106067.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [06:43] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
# [06:48] * Quits: briansloane (~briansloa@c-24-127-191-222.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Quit: briansloane)
# [06:53] * Joins: ruby_on_tails (~awakened@117.194.226.50)
# [06:55] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I think there was at least one person other than hsivonen who wasn't happy with the proposed <template> parsing
# [06:55] * MikeSmith goes to look back at some threads
# [06:55] <Hixie> if it's me it doesn't count :-)
# [06:55] <MikeSmith> hahaha
# [06:56] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net)
# [06:56] * Quits: yuuki__ (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [06:57] * Quits: hongymagic (~hongymagi@exchange.gruden.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [06:58] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.169)
# [06:58] * Joins: niloy (~niloy@203.196.177.156)
# [07:00] * Joins: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [07:02] * Quits: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
# [07:06] * Joins: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [07:08] <MikeSmith> Hixie: not exactly an answer to your question, but I think Scott Gonzalez questioned whether we need a <template> element at all, or need to be trying to do this through markup
# [07:09] <Hixie> url?
# [07:09] <Hixie> if he has an alternative solution that is certainly a good thing to look at
# [07:11] <MikeSmith> Hixie: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2012AprJun/0294.html
# [07:11] <MikeSmith> he's scott_gonzalez on IRC
# [07:11] <MikeSmith> dunno what timezone he's in
# [07:12] <MikeSmith> maybe US/West or Central
# [07:12] <Hixie> i think those points have been pretty fully explained by dimitry and company
# [07:12] <MikeSmith> OK
# [07:12] <MikeSmith> yeah I remember ojan replying
# [07:13] * Quits: ruby_on_tails (~awakened@117.194.226.50) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [07:13] <MikeSmith> anyway I guess Scott is the other person I was thinking of
# [07:13] <Hixie> k
# [07:14] <Hixie> <template> has bubbled its way to the top of my queue again but i'm not sure what to do since it seems a bit bad to go behind hsivonen's back on this
# [07:14] * Quits: skimmas (~skimmas@2.82.103.3) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [07:14] <Hixie> especially after just having gone a way hsivonen didn't really want with the alt attribute thread
# [07:15] <Hixie> though at least in that case it was just a naming thing
# [07:15] <Hixie> this one is reather more... fundamental
# [07:15] * Joins: ruby_on_tails (~awakened@117.194.226.50)
# [07:18] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I expect hsivonen will be back soon
# [07:18] <MikeSmith> seems like he's been away for 3 weeks or so already
# [07:19] <Hixie> that's what i thought a few days ago, which is why i had waited on the alt thing :-)
# [07:27] * Joins: ChrisWilson (~Adium@173-228-5-225.dsl.static.sonic.net)
# [07:28] * Joins: hongymagic (~hongymagi@203.21.160.33)
# [07:29] * Joins: ChrisWilson1 (~Adium@173-228-5-225.dsl.static.sonic.net)
# [07:29] * Quits: ChrisWilson (~Adium@173-228-5-225.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [07:34] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-222.net-80-236-80.issy.rev.numericable.fr) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [07:35] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@173-164-174-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
# [07:41] <zcorpan> work on this until he's back :-) https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=anywordssubstr&short_desc=%3Ctrack%3E+webvtt&longdesc_type=allwordssubstr&longdesc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailtype2=substring&email2
# [07:41] <zcorpan> =&bug_id_type=anyexact&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=
# [07:41] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@s1106067.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
# [07:43] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106067.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [07:43] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
# [07:52] * Quits: ruby_on_tails (~awakened@117.194.226.50) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [07:54] * Joins: ruby_on_tails (~awakened@117.194.226.50)
# [07:54] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
# [07:57] * Quits: ChrisWilson1 (~Adium@173-228-5-225.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [08:00] * Quits: ruby_on_tails (~awakened@117.194.226.50) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [08:02] * Joins: ruby_on_tails (~awakened@117.194.226.50)
# [08:03] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@67.111.52.130.ptr.us.xo.net)
# [08:04] <jacobolus> cabanier: hey Rik. By the way, I wanted to say that even though I got a bit ranty earlier, I do appreciate the addition of more kinds of image compositing to CSS. It should enable some very cool stuff. :)
# [08:04] * Parts: hongymagic (~hongymagi@203.21.160.33)
# [08:05] <jacobolus> my annoyance at the "luminosity", etc. blend modes is with their technical details (which fall short of what they could be), not with their concept (which is a great one)
# [08:06] <jacobolus> and even just directly copying photoshop's behavior, though perhaps not ideal, is definitely better than not having such features
# [08:11] * Joins: Martin_L (~Martin_L@194.18.12.26)
# [08:16] * Quits: espadrine (~thaddee_t@nat/mozilla/x-lrmstwpybacmypoz) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [08:16] * Quits: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB1A29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [08:17] * Joins: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB1A29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
# [08:19] * Quits: ruby_on_tails (~awakened@117.194.226.50) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [08:20] * Quits: Martin_L (~Martin_L@194.18.12.26) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [08:22] * Joins: Martin_L (~Martin_L@194.18.12.26)
# [08:24] * Quits: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB1A29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [08:30] * Joins: Ducki (~Ducki@pD9E39A18.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
# [08:35] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@70-36-140-99.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
# [08:35] <jgraham> Hixie: It you are looking for things to do I certianly have reported bugs that I would like fixes for ;)
# [08:36] <jgraham> In related news, I got an apparently working script last night so I will finish it up when I get to the office. Let me know whatever I need to interact with your end (if you didn't already, I didn't check email)
# [08:37] * Joins: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB1A29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
# [08:37] <Hixie> jgraham: i sent you mail
# [08:37] <jgraham> I was thinking of providing a URL that would respond to GETs that would cause an immediate update of the data (with some rate limiting to protect bugzilla)
# [08:38] * Joins: ruby_on_tails (~awakened@117.194.226.50)
# [08:38] <jgraham> For long values of immediate (i.e. it would actually do the update async and call back to update your end)
# [08:38] <Hixie> when would i call it?
# [08:38] <jgraham> After someone submits a bug
# [08:38] <Hixie> sure, i can do that
# [08:39] <Hixie> not all bugs go through my script though
# [08:39] <jgraham> Sure, but it would allow a slower update frequency whilst still getting mostly-fresh data
# [08:40] <jgraham> Anyway, need to get ready to leave for the office now if I want to take the bus
# [08:40] <Hixie> k
# [08:40] <Hixie> if you want to do that (which is fine by me) reply to that e-mail and i'll hook in tomorrow at work
# [08:41] <jgraham> Sure
# [08:41] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.169) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [08:44] * Joins: Stevef (~chatzilla@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
# [08:46] * Joins: espadrine (~thaddee_t@63-235-13-3.dia.static.qwest.net)
# [08:46] * Parts: espadrine (~thaddee_t@63-235-13-3.dia.static.qwest.net)
# [08:46] * Joins: espadrine (~thaddee_t@63-235-13-3.dia.static.qwest.net)
# [08:46] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaaa9-74736162.cust.telenor.se)
# [08:49] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@119.161.158.96)
# [08:51] <rniwa> jezz... people are still talking about longdesc :(
# [08:52] <zcorpan> longdesc! longdesc for img, longdesc for iframe, longdesc for video! everyone gets a longdesc!
# [08:52] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@173-164-174-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
# [08:53] <rniwa> zcorpan: i propose we add longdesc element and add longdesc content attribute on that.
# [08:54] * Joins: markkes (~markkes@62.207.90.201)
# [08:54] * Quits: markkes (~markkes@62.207.90.201) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [08:54] <jgraham> rniwa: In web standards, the definition of "n00b" is "has endured less than half a decade of longdesc flamewars"
# [08:54] <rniwa> jgraham: i had been following the w3c standards for a while but i had never been aware of longdesc flamewars :(
# [08:54] <rniwa> jgraham: probably because i had avoided joining mailing lists
# [08:55] <jgraham> rniwa: n00b
# [08:55] <jgraham> :)
# [08:56] <rniwa> jgraham: i must say i'm quite amazed that people participating in that discussion can make living...
# [08:58] <rniwa> jgraham: although... on the other hand, the definition of standards n00b might be to consider W3C as too bureaucratic.
# [08:58] <rniwa> jgraham: W3C is nothing like IETF or ISO.
# [09:00] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@60.234.66.20) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
# [09:09] <zcorpan> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17273#c6 so use case A, i'm pondering about what an api would look like and have trouble with naming
# [09:11] <zcorpan> my idea is: video.XYZ.add(0, 90, 100, 100); would occupy the bottom 10% of the video (so cues are pushed upwards) and video.XYZ.clear(); would clear the areas
# [09:11] <zcorpan> having a property XYZ instead of putting the methods on video directly my thinking is that it would be easier to extend in the future and maybe easier to work with if you save the object as a variable
# [09:12] <zcorpan> anyone have suggestions for the name?
# [09:19] * Quits: ruby_on_tails (~awakened@117.194.226.50) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [09:21] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
# [09:21] * Quits: espadrine (~thaddee_t@63-235-13-3.dia.static.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [09:22] <zcorpan> video.viewport.occupy(...) maybe?
# [09:30] * Joins: roven (~chatzilla@d51530390.static.telenet.be)
# [09:37] * Joins: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.117.75)
# [09:38] * Quits: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [09:38] * Joins: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [09:43] <odinho> occupy video movement? :P
# [09:44] <jgraham> video.viewport.occupy(99%)?
# [09:44] <odinho> jgraham: Oh man, too good :D :D
# [09:47] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.51.161)
# [09:49] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
# [09:58] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@70-36-140-99.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
# [10:02] * Joins: henrikkok (~henrikkok@81.27.221.193)
# [10:03] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net)
# [10:04] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [10:10] * Quits: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [10:18] * Joins: nonge_ (~nonge@p5082B5C7.dip.t-dialin.net)
# [10:19] * Joins: [[zzz]] (~q@node-9ok.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net)
# [10:21] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p5B326047.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [10:23] * Quits: [[zz]] (~q@node-3xd.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
# [10:24] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
# [10:24] <kennyluck> So there's no longer WHATWG weekly….
# [10:25] <kennyluck> For what it's worth, I do appreciate Anne's work. I can see how boring writing such summaries is…
# [10:28] <Ms2ger> Do I hear a volunteer? :)
# [10:29] <jgraham> Pretty sure I heard one
# [10:33] <odinho> Cool, nice that it'll continue kennyluck!
# [10:33] <odinho> Props to you
# [10:33] <kennyluck> Noooooooo
# [10:34] * Quits: Stevef (~chatzilla@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [10:35] * Joins: Stevef (~chatzilla@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
# [10:37] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@67.111.52.130.ptr.us.xo.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [10:38] * Joins: charlvn (~charlvn@charlvn.nl)
# [10:39] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Read error: Operation timed out)
# [10:41] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@lk.92.63.17.253.dc.cable.static.lj-kabel.net)
# [10:45] * [[zzz]] is now known as [[zz]]
# [10:46] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@70-36-140-99.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
# [10:48] * Joins: WolfieZero (~WolfieZer@87.124.34.32)
# [10:51] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@70-36-140-99.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [10:53] * Joins: wooorm (~Adium@5356CDB6.cm-6-7d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
# [10:55] * Quits: Yudai (~Yudai@nttkyo090207.tkyo.nt.ngn2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp) (Quit: Tiarra 0.1+svn-36726: SIGTERM received; exit)
# [10:55] * Joins: Yudai (~Yudai@nttkyo090207.tkyo.nt.ngn2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp)
# [11:07] * Quits: Martin_L (~Martin_L@194.18.12.26) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [11:09] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: rniwa)
# [11:10] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@ix-2-0-0-155.core4.LDN-London.as6453.net)
# [11:10] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@ix-2-0-0-155.core4.LDN-London.as6453.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [11:10] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@ix-2-0-0-155.core4.LDN-London.as6453.net)
# [11:13] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@69.165.253.118) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [11:15] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
# [11:16] * Quits: wooorm (~Adium@5356CDB6.cm-6-7d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [11:17] <zcorpan> kennyluck++
# [11:20] * Quits: danheberden (~danheberd@li225-35.members.linode.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [11:21] * Joins: danheberden (~danheberd@li225-35.members.linode.com)
# [11:21] * Joins: wooorm (~wooorm@5356CDB6.cm-6-7d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
# [11:22] * Parts: wooorm (~wooorm@5356CDB6.cm-6-7d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
# [11:23] * Quits: yoshiki_ (yoshiki@nat/google/x-hwwezrefiyybxwsu) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [11:27] * Joins: Martin_L (~Martin_L@194.18.12.26)
# [11:43] * Joins: Kolombiken (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
# [11:43] * Parts: Kolombiken (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
# [11:51] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@78-3-31-178.adsl.net.t-com.hr)
# [11:52] * Quits: Ducki (~Ducki@pD9E39A18.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [11:53] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [11:54] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
# [11:54] * Joins: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
# [11:57] * Joins: Ducki (~Ducki@pD9E39A18.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
# [11:59] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [12:07] * Quits: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.117.75) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [12:10] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@119.161.158.96) (Quit: kennyluck)
# [12:10] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
# [12:10] * Joins: wooorm (~Adium@5356CDB6.cm-6-7d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
# [12:12] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
# [12:17] * Joins: Druide__ (~Druid@p5B135944.dip.t-dialin.net)
# [12:18] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [12:18] * Quits: Druide_ (~Druid@p5B13703D.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [12:23] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
# [12:27] * Joins: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@190.244.73.31)
# [12:28] * Quits: Martin_L (~Martin_L@194.18.12.26) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [12:30] * Joins: Martin_L (~Martin_L@194.18.12.26)
# [12:35] * eighty4_ is now known as eighty4
# [12:35] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@109.74.203.164) (Changing host)
# [12:35] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@unaffiliated/eighty4)
# [12:42] <jgraham> Did someone say status markers on bugs?
# [12:43] <jgraham> (seems to be broken in Opera though :( )
# [12:43] <zcorpan> :(
# [12:48] <jgraham> It is broken for other people, right?
# [12:48] <jgraham> I mean the whole status thing is missing?
# [12:50] <zcorpan> i see status boxes in 12.01
# [12:51] <jgraham> Hmm I have -next
# [12:51] <jgraham> But it worked on the spec I had loaded before
# [12:56] <Ms2ger> jgraham, there's no way to change the spec section after the fact, I guess?
# [12:56] <jgraham> Ms2ger: It just uses the URL field at the moment
# [12:56] <jgraham> So editing that ought to work
# [12:57] <jgraham> I didn't try though
# [12:57] <Ms2ger> How often does it update?
# [12:57] <jgraham> At the moment? Never
# [12:57] <Ms2ger> That's not a lot
# [12:57] <jgraham> But I will set up a cron job and give Hixie a hook to trigger an update after a bug is posted
# [12:59] <Ms2ger> Oh, heh, the bugs filed on #head end up attached to the TOC on the multipage parts
# [12:59] <zcorpan> jgraham: this is awesome. thanks
# [13:00] <Ms2ger> jgraham++
# [13:02] <gsnedders> Why is there no clear documentation of what is stable in ES6 drafts and what is likely to change? >_>
# [13:02] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
# [13:02] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@faun.canonical.com)
# [13:02] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@faun.canonical.com) (Changing host)
# [13:02] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
# [13:03] <scott_gonzalez> Hixie MikeSmith: I can read through the <template> discussions again (and my timezone is ET)
# [13:03] * Quits: Guest40453 (~jondong@123.126.22.58) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [13:04] <MikeSmith> scott_gonzalez: I remember that Ojan at least had specifically responded to you with some rationale about why markup was needed
# [13:05] <scott_gonzalez> MikeSmith: Is the main benefit having a native solution for Web Components?
# [13:05] <MikeSmith> yes
# [13:05] <MikeSmith> I guess that's not clear from the rest of the thread
# [13:06] <MikeSmith> but that in fact is what this is needed for
# [13:06] <MikeSmith> I don't know that anybody has any other use in mind for it other than that
# [13:07] <MikeSmith> I remember an hsivonen question in that thread that indicated he wasn't aware of that either
# [13:07] <scott_gonzalez> I guess that seems fine. I'm not sure it's really a big win to have a declarative way to define loops and the such.
# [13:08] <scott_gonzalez> Do we expect components that need logic and don't need JS?
# [13:09] <scott_gonzalez> I should probably read the Web Components spec again.
# [13:09] <scott_gonzalez> I only read it once and it was a while ago.
# [13:10] <MikeSmith> scott_gonzalez: I don't think we'd expect components that need logic but don't need JS, no.
# [13:10] <MikeSmith> But I'm not expert on those specs either
# [13:10] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@lk.92.63.17.253.dc.cable.static.lj-kabel.net) (Quit: sedovsek)
# [13:10] <MikeSmith> dglazkov would be the person to ask
# [13:11] <MikeSmith> he's in US/West I think
# [13:11] <scott_gonzalez> ok
# [13:11] <scott_gonzalez> I'm juts having a hard time thinking about how a component would make use of nested templates and looping without having to do a bunch of logic in JS anyway.
# [13:11] <scott_gonzalez> s/juts/just/
# [13:12] <MikeSmith> right
# [13:12] <MikeSmith> I would think it still need the JS logic too but I could well be wrong about that
# [13:13] <MikeSmith> there is no purely declarative way to do this as far as I can see
# [13:13] <scott_gonzalez> I have an item on my todo list to convert a jQuery UI widget into a web component.
# [13:13] <scott_gonzalez> But I won't be able to work on that for at least 1-3 weeks.
# [13:13] <MikeSmith> that would be a good exercise for sure
# [13:13] <scott_gonzalez> We're in crunch time for a release.
# [13:13] <MikeSmith> OK
# [13:14] <MikeSmith> we should really try to have another face-to-face meeting somewhere early next year to talk about Web Components
# [13:14] <MikeSmith> I'm sure we will be having a discussion at the WebApps WG meeting in November
# [13:15] <MikeSmith> but that will be in France and I think a lot of people will not be traveling to it
# [13:15] * Quits: roven (~chatzilla@d51530390.static.telenet.be) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [13:15] <scott_gonzalez> Do you know where the next one after that will be?
# [13:15] * Joins: roven (~chatzilla@d51530390.static.telenet.be)
# [13:15] * Quits: FedorEmelianenko (~fedor@151.74.48.60)
# [13:16] <MikeSmith> scott_gonzalez: if we do in fact end up doing it, most likely in Mountain View or nearby I guess
# [13:17] <scott_gonzalez> I can probably attend that.
# [13:18] <MikeSmith> it will just be a matter of seeing if there's enough interest and then somebody taking responsibility for planning it
# [13:18] <MikeSmith> I guess it's probably something we'll talk about at the WebApps meeting in November
# [13:18] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f731523.pool.mediaWays.net)
# [13:19] <scott_gonzalez> ok
# [13:22] <deane> MikeSmith: Hi, what mailing list do bugs from this component go to? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=Validator%20%28Nu%29
# [13:22] <MikeSmith> hey deane
# [13:22] <MikeSmith> no mailing list, maybe
# [13:22] <MikeSmith> wait no, www-validator-cvs@w3.org
# [13:22] <MikeSmith> see the QA Contact field
# [13:23] <deane> I see
# [13:23] <MikeSmith> deane: they also go to mike+validator@w3.org
# [13:23] <MikeSmith> so you can just set a watch on that address if you want
# [13:23] <deane> I see
# [13:24] <deane> so there will be double ups with .nu's bugzilla then? Two bugzillas for one validator
# [13:25] <deane> How come it doesn't have the text field and file upload functionality?
# [13:26] <MikeSmith> it does have those
# [13:26] <MikeSmith> and yeah I guess there could be redundant bugs
# [13:26] <MikeSmith> but those a easy to deal with
# [13:27] <MikeSmith> deane: the select menu at http://validator.w3.org/nu/ has "Address", "File Upload", and "Text Field"
# [13:27] * Quits: ^esc (~esc_ape@178.115.251.73.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [13:27] <MikeSmith> it requires that you have JS enabled
# [13:28] <deane> Yeah, just noticed that :)
# [13:30] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@lk.92.63.17.253.dc.cable.static.lj-kabel.net)
# [13:30] <deane> I wish hsivonen had a mailing list for .nu's bugzilla. I think it's only you and him that get the notifications.
# [13:37] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@pat-tazdevil.opera.com)
# [13:41] <zcorpan> deane: add hsivonen to your watch list. http://bugzilla.validator.nu/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
# [13:42] * Joins: linclark (clark@145.253.125.212)
# [13:42] <deane> zcorpan: thanks, I'll set that up.
# [14:00] <zcorpan> jgraham: would it be hard to put the bug summary in the link title=""?
# [14:01] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@pool-173-76-135-79.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
# [14:02] <jgraham> zcorpan: I was thinking that too
# [14:03] <jgraham> Easy on my end at least
# [14:03] <jgraham> It would require a different wire format and stuff, but nothing that would be difficult to change I think
# [14:04] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|brb
# [14:12] * abstractj|brb is now known as abstractj
# [14:16] <zcorpan> would be nice for sure
# [14:24] <jgraham> I am thinking we should be able to do something similar for tests (maybe a link per section to tests for that section, genertated from whatever manifest data people have added) and that the other stuff that's currently in the status markers isn't that useful
# [14:25] <jgraham> Would be nice if the implementation status could be outsourced to caniuse.com
# [14:26] <zcorpan> yeah
# [14:26] <zcorpan> and finally, it would be nice to have all this for other specs, too (and i want a pony) :-)
# [14:27] * Joins: espadrine (~thaddee_t@63.235.13.3)
# [14:27] * Quits: WolfieZero (~WolfieZer@87.124.34.32) (Quit: WolfieZero)
# [14:28] <jgraham> I might fix up some code to scrape which tests apply to each section in the next few days
# [14:29] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net) (Quit: eric_carlson)
# [14:30] <jgraham> Could map caniuse.com data to section ids (for at least top level sections) and get some implementation status data from there
# [14:30] <jgraham> https://github.com/Fyrd/caniuse/blob/master/data.json
# [14:33] * Quits: akaroa (~Dean@203.184.22.238) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [14:42] * Joins: akaroa (~Dean@203.184.22.238)
# [14:43] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@78-3-31-178.adsl.net.t-com.hr) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [14:43] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@78-3-31-178.adsl.net.t-com.hr)
# [14:47] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@78-3-31-178.adsl.net.t-com.hr) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [14:48] <zcorpan> jgraham: so what happens when a bug is no longer open, does it leave the section box lying around or does it remove it if there's no other data in it?
# [14:49] <jgraham> zcorpan: The box will just end up in the state it would have been in if there had never been a bug
# [14:49] <jgraham> But Hixie did that whole end
# [14:49] <zcorpan> ok
# [14:49] * Quits: Druide__ (~Druid@p5B135944.dip.t-dialin.net)
# [14:49] <jgraham> My role in the enterprise is just scraper of data
# [14:49] <jgraham> (for small values of "scrape" since it is XML and CSV rather than HTML)
# [14:51] <odinho> jgraham: That would be ace, in fact. Using caniuse api.
# [14:51] <odinho> s/api/datha
# [15:07] * Joins: yod (~ot@132.185.139.76)
# [15:07] * Quits: Delapouite (~Delapouit@dsl-58-6-19-17.wa.westnet.com.au) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [15:09] * Joins: thisgeek (~chris@ool-45757d25.dyn.optonline.net)
# [15:17] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net) (Quit: tomasf)
# [15:19] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@s1106067.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
# [15:21] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106067.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [15:21] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
# [15:22] * Joins: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com)
# [15:24] * Quits: linclark (clark@145.253.125.212) (Quit: linclark)
# [15:27] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@69.165.253.118)
# [15:28] * Quits: foolip (~philip@2001:4c28:a032:32:1d48:9b79:179e:9f39) (Read error: Operation timed out)
# [15:37] * Quits: nessy (~silviapf@124-171-9-172.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [15:37] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@s1106067.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
# [15:39] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@FL1-49-129-49-171.tky.mesh.ad.jp)
# [15:39] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106067.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [15:39] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
# [15:40] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@173.164.174.193)
# [15:40] * Joins: snowfox_ben (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
# [15:48] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@173.164.174.193) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [15:48] * Quits: yod (~ot@132.185.139.76) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [15:48] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@173-164-174-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
# [15:51] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@173-164-174-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Client Quit)
# [15:52] * Quits: thisgeek (~chris@ool-45757d25.dyn.optonline.net) (Quit: thisgeek)
# [15:53] * Joins: thisgeek (~chris@ool-45757d25.dyn.optonline.net)
# [15:53] * Joins: foolip (~philip@node-7lfbc9084e7d2cj72.a0.ipv6.opera.com)
# [15:55] * Joins: graememcc (~chatzilla@host86-148-161-234.range86-148.btcentralplus.com)
# [15:55] * Joins: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
# [15:55] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@173-164-174-193-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
# [16:01] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se)
# [16:04] * Quits: Martin_L (~Martin_L@194.18.12.26) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [16:07] <smaug____> no rniwa
# [16:07] <smaug____> I wonder in which time zone he is in?
# [16:07] <Ms2ger> jp?
# [16:09] -myakura:#whatwg- thinks he's based in SF or somewhere in CA.
# [16:13] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@69.165.253.118) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [16:13] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek)
# [16:15] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaaa9-74736162.cust.telenor.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [16:16] <jgraham> Indeed, I was under the impression he works in the Googleplex in MV
# [16:17] <smaug____> Ms2ger: hey, another thing. Since anne is apparently away, do you happen to know how stable prepend()/append() etc are in DOM4
# [16:17] <smaug____> after/before will change sure
# [16:17] <jarek> is there somewhere a JSON version of this table? http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/attindex.html
# [16:18] <Ms2ger> I haven't seen feedback on it for ages, so I assume either stable or ignored :)
# [16:18] <jgraham> Not ignored
# [16:18] <Ms2ger> Must be stable, then
# [16:19] <Ms2ger> jgraham, you're denying to comment on whether or not you're implementing? :)
# [16:19] <jgraham> Ms2ger: No comment on whether or not I am commenting :p
# [16:19] <Ms2ger> Dammit :)
# [16:20] <smaug____> somewhere between ignored and stable then..
# [16:25] * Joins: linclark (clark@145.253.125.212)
# [16:26] * Joins: kennyluck (7b7251e0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.123.114.81.224)
# [16:28] * Quits: linclark (clark@145.253.125.212) (Client Quit)
# [16:33] * Joins: linclark (clark@145.253.125.212)
# [16:34] * Quits: Ducki (~Ducki@pD9E39A18.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [16:42] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f731523.pool.mediaWays.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [16:42] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f731523.pool.mediaWays.net)
# [16:43] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f731523.pool.mediaWays.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [16:43] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f731523.pool.mediaWays.net)
# [16:47] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
# [16:52] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@173-164-174-193-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [16:53] * Joins: sarro (~sarro@i5E86451D.versanet.de)
# [16:56] * Quits: henrikkok (~henrikkok@81.27.221.193) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [16:57] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@173-164-174-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
# [17:00] * Quits: twisted`_ (u6794@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rqlxretigcrsfuht)
# [17:01] * Joins: twisted` (u6794@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kmafckpusgrwlpjz)
# [17:02] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Oh come on, you know we're implementing it, along with everything else in HTML5/DOM4/CSS3/XSLT2/$otherSpecHere, because how else would we do it first!?
# [17:02] <gsnedders> We implement stuff within days of it getting specced!
# [17:02] <gsnedders> We just have rather long times to market. :P
# [17:02] * Quits: linclark (clark@145.253.125.212) (Quit: linclark)
# [17:03] <gsnedders> s/./ at times./
# [17:03] * Joins: izhak (~izhak@213.87.240.237)
# [17:06] * Joins: rick- (~rwaldron@209-6-71-27.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com)
# [17:07] * Quits: rick- (~rwaldron@209-6-71-27.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com) (Client Quit)
# [17:08] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@173-164-174-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [17:09] * Quits: izhak (~izhak@213.87.240.237) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [17:10] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [17:12] * Joins: rick- (~rwaldron@209-6-71-27.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com)
# [17:12] * Joins: richt_ (~richt@pat-tazdevil.opera.com)
# [17:12] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
# [17:13] * Quits: gavinc (~gavin@50.0.77.3) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
# [17:15] * rick- is now known as rwaldron
# [17:16] * Quits: richt (~richt@office.oslo.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [17:17] * Joins: gavinc (~gavin@50.0.77.3)
# [17:18] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se) (Quit: tomasf)
# [17:22] * Joins: ir1spardalis (~fr@unaffiliated/ir1spardalis)
# [17:23] * Quits: kennyluck (7b7251e0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.123.114.81.224) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [17:24] * Quits: ir1spardalis (~fr@unaffiliated/ir1spardalis) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [17:25] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@2620:101:8003:200:89f5:df06:3b20:5062)
# [17:27] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [17:29] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
# [17:38] * Joins: xbuzz_ (~chris@waltham-nat.ma.lycos.com)
# [17:41] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@pat-tazdevil.opera.com) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
# [17:42] * Quits: xbuzz_ (~chris@waltham-nat.ma.lycos.com) (Client Quit)
# [17:43] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah adding titles seems like a great thing to do
# [17:43] <Hixie> jgraham: i can set something up when i get to the office
# [17:43] <Hixie> would be a slightly bigger pain on my end but nothing unmanageable
# [17:44] <Hixie> jgraham: doing the tests too would be great, that's actually already supported
# [17:45] <Hixie> jgraham: you'd just have to plug into the existing API for updating section markers
# [17:46] <Hixie> i looked into doing implementation status from caniuse at some point but that was gonna be more than trivial so i didn't bother
# [17:46] <Hixie> i'd love to have that automatic too though
# [17:46] * Joins: xbuzz_ (~chris@waltham-nat.ma.lycos.com)
# [17:47] * Quits: xbuzz_ (~chris@waltham-nat.ma.lycos.com) (Client Quit)
# [17:50] * Quits: victrola` (~decadance@69.73.175.77) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [17:51] * Joins: victrola` (~decadance@69.73.175.77)
# [17:52] * Joins: gwicke (~gabriel@wikimedia/gwicke)
# [17:54] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [17:54] * Quits: roven (~chatzilla@d51530390.static.telenet.be) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347])
# [17:56] * Quits: wooorm (~Adium@5356CDB6.cm-6-7d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [17:57] * Joins: kennyluck (7b7251e0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.123.114.81.224)
# [17:58] * Quits: stefsull_ (~stefsull@ip68-104-139-203.ph.ph.cox.net) (Quit: stefsull_)
# [18:13] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric@2620:149:4:1b01:21ec:2b2c:9e6b:1a03)
# [18:13] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [18:15] * Joins: jryans (~jryans@m20677151209.austincc.edu)
# [18:16] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
# [18:18] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [18:21] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
# [18:22] * Joins: ap_ (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:7cbb:2316:e68d:2749)
# [18:23] * Quits: jryans (~jryans@m20677151209.austincc.edu) (Quit: Be back later)
# [18:31] * Joins: SonicX (~quassel@116.203.10.42)
# [18:31] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
# [18:32] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
# [18:33] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
# [18:38] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [18:38] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [18:38] * Joins: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
# [18:39] * Joins: ChrisWilson (~Adium@nat/mozilla/x-cbinlxdcoeplsfdx)
# [18:39] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|lunch
# [18:42] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
# [18:42] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.71.130.getinternet.no)
# [18:45] * Quits: gwicke (~gabriel@wikimedia/gwicke) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [18:45] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
# [18:48] * Parts: snowfox_ben (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
# [18:49] * Quits: richt_ (~richt@pat-tazdevil.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [18:50] * Joins: richt (~richt@office.oslo.opera.com)
# [18:53] * Joins: WeirdAl (~chatzilla@g2spf.ask.info)
# [18:56] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
# [18:56] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@2620:101:8003:200:226:bbff:fe05:3fe1)
# [18:57] * Joins: izhak (~izhak@188.244.178.52)
# [18:59] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
# [19:01] <odinho> Hixie: What is needed? A mapping from section to the data? Maybe the upstream data could even get that in.
# [19:02] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
# [19:02] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek) (Quit: jarek)
# [19:03] * Joins: jryans (~jryans@66-90-217-168.dyn.grandenetworks.net)
# [19:04] * Joins: gwicke (~gabriel@216.38.130.162)
# [19:04] * Quits: gwicke (~gabriel@216.38.130.162) (Changing host)
# [19:04] * Joins: gwicke (~gabriel@wikimedia/gwicke)
# [19:04] * Joins: ^esc (~esc_ape@77.116.247.228.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
# [19:06] * Joins: michaeln (~michaeln@2620:101:8003:300:221:e9ff:fee1:5911)
# [19:06] * Quits: SonicX (~quassel@116.203.10.42) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
# [19:06] * Quits: barneybook (kvirc@220-133-195-146.HINET-IP.hinet.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [19:07] * Joins: isherman-book (~Adium@173-167-102-230-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
# [19:09] * Joins: BennyLava` (~colin@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
# [19:09] * Quits: BennyLava` (~colin@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Changing host)
# [19:09] * Joins: BennyLava` (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
# [19:09] * Joins: stefsull_ (~stefsull@wsip-98-191-178-254.ph.ph.cox.net)
# [19:12] * Quits: BennyLava (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [19:13] * Joins: Kolombiken (~Adium@c80-216-10-244.bredband.comhem.se)
# [19:15] * Joins: barneybook (kvirc@220-133-195-146.HINET-IP.hinet.net)
# [19:20] * abstractj|lunch is now known as abstractj
# [19:21] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.71.130.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [19:26] * Quits: jonlee (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:d943:de16:d4f2:5d05) (Quit: jonlee)
# [19:28] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [19:29] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [19:32] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@70-36-140-99.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
# [19:32] <Hixie> odinho: yeah
# [19:35] * Quits: ajpiano (~ajpiano@li98-57.members.linode.com) (Quit: twss)
# [19:36] * Joins: jonlee (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:9de5:36ad:ac5a:e512)
# [19:36] <Hixie> jgraham: yt?
# [19:39] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@2620:101:8003:200:226:bbff:fe05:3fe1) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [19:42] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@s1106056.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
# [19:42] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f731523.pool.mediaWays.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [19:42] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f731523.pool.mediaWays.net)
# [19:43] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@2620:101:8003:200:226:bbff:fe05:3fe1)
# [19:43] <Hixie> jgraham: i've changed the wire format and database
# [19:43] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106067.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [19:43] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
# [19:44] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [19:44] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@lk.92.63.17.253.dc.cable.static.lj-kabel.net) (Quit: sedovsek)
# [19:45] * Quits: thisgeek (~chris@ool-45757d25.dyn.optonline.net) (Quit: thisgeek)
# [19:45] <smaug____> still no rniwa
# [19:45] * Joins: dgathright (~dgathrigh@nat/yahoo/x-fixdyvfzitecfypc)
# [19:45] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@lk.92.63.17.253.dc.cable.static.lj-kabel.net)
# [19:46] <Hixie> jgraham: updated the front-end, too
# [19:46] * Joins: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55)
# [19:47] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f731523.pool.mediaWays.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [19:47] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@lk.92.63.17.253.dc.cable.static.lj-kabel.net) (Client Quit)
# [19:48] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
# [19:49] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com)
# [19:49] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f731523.pool.mediaWays.net)
# [19:51] <TabAtkins> smaug____: rniwa works in our SF office.
# [19:51] * Quits: WeirdAl (~chatzilla@g2spf.ask.info) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347])
# [19:59] <Ms2ger> I've seen rniwa on the list
# [20:02] * Parts: michaeln (~michaeln@2620:101:8003:300:221:e9ff:fee1:5911)
# [20:02] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@128-69-102-87.broadband.corbina.ru)
# [20:03] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Someone just suggested that inline CAS + parser-inserted elements could do the adjustments synchronously. I don't immediately see any problems with this - it's just adjusting the set of attributes attached to the element during building, essentially.
# [20:05] <TabAtkins> Well, minor problem I suppose - if the inline CAS is late in the document, it'll only apply synchronously to elements *after* it in the stream, I guess. This might be confusing.
# [20:06] <TabAtkins> However, there's no reason at all to put your CAS in late - linked CAS is automatically async, and inlined CAS doesn't need to wait for any elements to load, like JS might.
# [20:11] * Quits: jryans (~jryans@66-90-217-168.dyn.grandenetworks.net) (Quit: Be back later)
# [20:11] * Joins: ajpiano (~ajpiano@li98-57.members.linode.com)
# [20:11] * Quits: ajpiano (~ajpiano@li98-57.members.linode.com) (Excess Flood)
# [20:16] * Joins: ajpiano (~ajpiano@li98-57.members.linode.com)
# [20:16] * Quits: isherman-book (~Adium@173-167-102-230-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [20:17] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@ix-2-0-0-155.core4.LDN-London.as6453.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [20:18] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@ix-2-0-0-155.core4.LDN-London.as6453.net)
# [20:18] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
# [20:19] * Joins: xbuzz (~chris@pool-96-252-81-32.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
# [20:21] * Quits: dgathright (~dgathrigh@nat/yahoo/x-fixdyvfzitecfypc) (Quit: dgathright)
# [20:22] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@ix-2-0-0-155.core4.LDN-London.as6453.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [20:24] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-49-129-49-171.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [20:31] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.71.130.getinternet.no)
# [20:35] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
# [20:36] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.71.130.getinternet.no) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
# [20:38] * Joins: graememcc_ (~chatzilla@host86-148-143-207.range86-148.btcentralplus.com)
# [20:40] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-ytfsolabregfvqvg)
# [20:40] * Quits: graememcc (~chatzilla@host86-148-161-234.range86-148.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [20:40] * smaug____ wonders how to deal with this webkit limitation "can't implement this and that because that would leak"
# [20:41] <smaug____> that affects heavily to APIs
# [20:41] <smaug____> and it is very odd limitation
# [20:41] * Joins: graememcc (~chatzilla@host81-151-187-180.range81-151.btcentralplus.com)
# [20:41] <smaug____> rniwa: FYI, I doubt Gecko would implement undomanager per page approach
# [20:44] * Quits: graememcc_ (~chatzilla@host86-148-143-207.range86-148.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [20:46] <Hixie> man i hate how you can't 'transition' from max-height:0 to max-height:auto
# [20:48] * Quits: kennyluck (7b7251e0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.123.114.81.224) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [20:49] * Quits: ChrisWilson (~Adium@nat/mozilla/x-cbinlxdcoeplsfdx) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [20:51] * Joins: ehsan_ (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
# [20:52] <Hixie> Ms2ger: are there specific urgent bugs you need me to look at?
# [20:52] <Hixie> Ms2ger: (if so, mark them "critical")
# [20:52] <Ms2ger> Don't think so
# [20:52] <Hixie> k
# [20:52] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [20:53] <Ms2ger> Actually, you fixed one of them yesterday :)
# [20:53] * Joins: ChrisWilson (~Adium@nat/mozilla/x-dkgriejxjrentjpz)
# [20:53] <Hixie> the only bugs i remember fixing yesterday were typos that i was fixing while watching tv :-)
# [20:53] <Ms2ger> The Attr bug
# [20:53] <Hixie> oh right
# [20:54] <Hixie> close enough to a typo
# [20:54] <Ms2ger> You should watch more tv, it seems to help you get work done :)
# [20:54] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@s1106056.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
# [20:54] <Hixie> heh
# [20:54] <Hixie> i've been doing lots of stuff recently
# [20:54] <Hixie> rewrote the whoel ruby section :-)
# [20:54] <Hixie> that was like days' worth of work
# [20:55] <rniwa> smaug____: i'm not suggesting that either.
# [20:55] <rniwa> smaug____: i specifically avoided spec'ing how undo inside a text field works
# [20:55] <rniwa> smaug____: given that there are different needs from different vendors
# [20:55] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106056.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [20:55] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
# [20:55] <Ms2ger> Hixie, well, I don't care about ruby ;)
# [20:56] <rniwa> smaug____: we probably need to make undoscope content attribute optional
# [20:56] <rniwa> smaug____: alternatively, we can get rid of "undo()" and "redo()" from undo manager API
# [20:56] <smaug____> rniwa: optional in which sense?
# [20:56] <rniwa> smaug____: and the definition of active undo manager platform dependent
# [20:56] <rniwa> smaug____: that some browsers won't support it
# [20:57] <smaug____> rniwa: no optional features in APIs
# [20:57] <rniwa> smaug____: then, we need to get rid of undo() and redo() from undoManager.
# [20:57] <rniwa> smaug____: i mean... i don't have to use the term optional
# [20:57] <rniwa> smaug____: i can just make it not do anything on browsers that don't support multiple undo managers per document.
# [20:58] <rniwa> smaug____: the thing is... we can have multiple undo managers per document, and that's final.
# [20:58] <rniwa> smaug____: there's nothing we can do about it.
# [20:58] <Hixie> ok i poked at the status boxes' styles a bit
# [20:58] <Hixie> hopefully y'all think they look prettier now
# [20:58] <smaug____> we isn't the idea to give web developers to make whatever kind undo handling they want
# [20:58] <smaug____> page level or field level
# [20:58] <rniwa> smaug____: no.
# [20:58] <hober> undo behavior should match the local platform convention
# [20:59] <rniwa> smaug____: the idea of undo manager is to let browsers know the existence of undo stack in the page
# [20:59] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@70.102.199.158)
# [20:59] <rniwa> smaug____: if they just wanted to do whatever the heck they want, just add a random entries to undo manager
# [20:59] <rniwa> smaug____: and then mantain your own undo manager
# [20:59] <rniwa> smaug____: then you can do whatever the hell you want.
# [20:59] <Hixie> btw are there any opera people around who have an opinion on <template>?
# [21:00] <rniwa> smaug____: and i don't intend stop you from doing that.
# [21:00] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: :tiuQ tiuq sah woclrak)
# [21:00] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
# [21:00] <rniwa> smaug____: all we're asking is to let us not violate platform conventions and let us make our decision as to what can be implemented and what cannot be implemented in our engine.
# [21:00] <Hixie> also i plan to post http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/What_you_can_do to alistapart pretty soon so if anyone sees anything wrong with it, please let me know asap
# [21:01] <rniwa> smaug____: i'm totally fine and respectful of the fact gecko (and opera) chose to have a separate undo manager per text field
# [21:01] <smaug____> rniwa: yeah, in practice it is "this is hard to implement in webkit, so lets do a dummy API"
# [21:01] <rniwa> smaug____: and i don't intend to comprose that either.
# [21:01] <rniwa> smaug____: no.
# [21:01] <Ms2ger> Hixie, hmm, I don't see bug annotations, am I just missing them?
# [21:01] <rniwa> smaug____: it's not just hard. it's impossible.
# [21:02] <smaug____> rniwa: what I'm even more worried that since webkit can't handle certain kinds of APIs, that will lead to worse APIs also elsewhere
# [21:02] <Hixie> Ms2ger: they're all gone except in the #introduction box for now
# [21:02] <smaug____> rniwa: it is hard, not impossible
# [21:02] <Hixie> Ms2ger: i'm waiting for jgraham to update his end to send bug titles
# [21:02] <rniwa> smaug____: it is impossible in practice
# [21:02] <smaug____> rniwa: Gecko had similar problems
# [21:02] <rniwa> smaug____: we're not going to adopt Gecko's approach
# [21:02] <smaug____> but then we implemented cycle collector
# [21:02] <rniwa> smaug____: nor are we willing to fix that problem.
# [21:03] * Joins: thisgeek (~chris@ool-45757d25.dyn.optonline.net)
# [21:03] <smaug____> other options are also possible
# [21:03] <Ms2ger> Hixie, oh, right
# [21:03] <smaug____> like to gc for everything
# [21:03] <rniwa> smaug____: but we're not going to do that.
# [21:03] <rniwa> smaug____: we have discussed this.
# [21:03] <smaug____> that is your choice
# [21:03] <rniwa> smaug____: and that's our conclusion.
# [21:03] <rniwa> smaug____: yes
# [21:03] <rniwa> smaug____: and i'm asking you to respect that.
# [21:04] <rniwa> smaug____: the matter of fact is that we're going to veto the spec anyway if we kept the spec as is.
# [21:04] <smaug____> rniwa: well, I'm worried that web APIs will be less than optimal because one major browser engine can't handle certain basic things
# [21:04] * Joins: graememcc_ (~chatzilla@host86-147-206-255.range86-147.btcentralplus.com)
# [21:04] <rniwa> smaug____: i don't consider this as "basic things"
# [21:04] <smaug____> rniwa: at least would be great to have some documentation what all webkit can't handle
# [21:04] <smaug____> so that we could try to avoid such constructs in APIs
# [21:05] <rniwa> smaug____: maybe.
# [21:05] <rniwa> smaug____: it was my fault. i should have chekced our how our object model works earlier
# [21:05] <smaug____> rniwa: if you have a GCed language like JS, and you design APIs for it, it is quite natural to expect that the underlying implementation can handle cycles
# [21:06] <rniwa> smaug____: we can handle cycles in javascript objects
# [21:06] <Hixie> fwiw, when there's a disagreement like this, at the end of the day, if you can't come to agreement, the way to solve it is to implement what you think is best and then ship it early enough that your implementation gets more traction than the other
# [21:06] <Hixie> and then the "losing" side gets to implement the other API or lose web compat
# [21:06] * Quits: graememcc (~chatzilla@host81-151-187-180.range81-151.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [21:06] * graememcc_ is now known as graememcc
# [21:06] <rniwa> Hixie: are you talking to us?
# [21:07] <Hixie> yes :-)
# [21:07] <rniwa> Hixie: yeah.
# [21:07] <rniwa> Hixie: my current plan is create a custom build of chromium with this feature
# [21:07] <smaug____> Hixie: well, so far webkit devs have made pretty clear they won't accept any certain kinds of APIs, which cause cycles in C++
# [21:07] <rniwa> Hixie: and let develpoers play with it.
# [21:07] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@66-87-2-16.pools.spcsdns.net)
# [21:07] <Hixie> smaug____: if you just implement that kind of API and get it widely adopted, you'll force the webkit devs to implement such an API anyway, and then your problem is solved :-)
# [21:08] <Hixie> (presumably at great cost to the webkit project)
# [21:08] <smaug____> (I don't know why it is so great cost when all the other engines have the solution)
# [21:08] <Hixie> (disclaimer: i have no idea what exactly we're talking about here in terms of the undomanager api, so i have no opinion on the actual issue)
# [21:08] <rniwa> Hixie: i mean... we're not going to implement it anyway.
# [21:09] <rniwa> Hixie: it's not a matter of whether we work hard or not.
# [21:09] <Hixie> rniwa: if all the other browsers implement it, you'd end up implementing it
# [21:09] <rniwa> Hixie: not really.
# [21:09] <rniwa> Hixie: we can choose not to implement it :)
# [21:09] <Hixie> you can chose to lose lots of market share :-)
# [21:09] <rniwa> Hixie: just like WebGL isn't implemented by IE
# [21:09] <Hixie> yeah, and we'll see how long they manage to hold out
# [21:09] <smaug____> Hixie: as far as I've understood webkit devs say they won't implement certain kinds of APIs. It is not quite clear to me what all cause problems for them
# [21:10] <smaug____> apparently even MutationObserver is hard (and leaky atm)
# [21:10] <rniwa> smaug____: the problem is that our JS engine uses garbage collection but all C++ objects are ref-counted
# [21:10] <smaug____> yes
# [21:10] <smaug____> Gecko works the same way
# [21:11] <smaug____> JS is GCed and C++ refcounted
# [21:11] <smaug____> (but we have cycle collector to kill the cycles )
# [21:11] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@70-36-140-99.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
# [21:12] <rniwa> smaug____: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uYHpq7u5Sslj54UgzXjA7pYR53XjidpBcrCa-neOGQs/edit?pli=1
# [21:12] <rniwa> smaug____: this explains how nodes are managed in webkit
# [21:13] * Joins: tomasf (~tom@host-95-199-30-163.mobileonline.telia.com)
# [21:13] <Hixie> rniwa: for the record, "we can't implement that" is a bit of a weak argument given that we're talking about software. i mean, you can implement it. not wanting to is a different matter.
# [21:13] <Hixie> rniwa: (again, i've no knowledge of the precise issue here, i'm just talking in general terms)
# [21:13] <rniwa> Hixie: well, if we were to implement this, we might as well as write our engine from scratch
# [21:14] <Hixie> mozilla did do that once
# [21:14] <rniwa> Hixie: and we're not going to do that.
# [21:14] * Joins: dgathright (~dgathrigh@nat/yahoo/x-bjqkptufmqhwksnp)
# [21:14] <rniwa> Hixie: so it's impossible in practice
# [21:15] <smaug____> cycle collector was added to gc+refcounted engine
# [21:15] <smaug____> it was a bit painful yes
# [21:15] <smaug____> but it is not impossible in practice
# [21:15] <Hixie> "we don't want to do that" is a different argument than "it's impossible". i'm just saying you'll get much better reactions from other vendors if you just say "we don't want to" than if you claim that something is impossible, especially if they have done it.
# [21:15] <rniwa> smaug____: the problem is that cycle collector will regress the performance will introduce a significant complexity to the code base.
# [21:15] <rniwa> Hixie: sure. i guess it's a wording issue :/
# [21:16] * Joins: nvartolomei (~nvartolom@178.168.103.7)
# [21:17] <Hixie> (from a competitive point of view, it seems gecko would be well positioned to introduce a widely-used api that forced you to take that hit to remain relevant, so it seems wise for webkit to get the alternative API used widely before gecko does theirs :-) )
# [21:18] <rniwa> Hixie: that's why we're already implementing it :)
# [21:18] * smaug____ needs to design some awesome new API which is all about cycles :)
# [21:19] <Hixie> rniwa: then you run the opposite risk, namely pissing off other vendors because you're forcing what they consider a bad api down their throat... it seems you're screwed either way :-)
# [21:19] <rniwa> Hixie: it's okay :)
# [21:20] <rniwa> Hixie: i'm used to pissing other ppl off
# [21:20] <rniwa> Hixie: that's my way life :P
# [21:20] <rniwa> way of*
# [21:23] <rniwa> Hixie: at the end of the day, there are things we don't do. like we'll never implement XBL2.0
# [21:25] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@93-103-104-107.dynamic.t-2.net)
# [21:25] <Hixie> if firefox and IE both used it and Amazon, CNN, and eBay all depended on it, you would.
# [21:25] <Hixie> s/used/implemented/
# [21:25] <rniwa> Hixie: maybe.
# [21:25] <Hixie> come now
# [21:25] <Hixie> there's no "maybe" there
# [21:25] <rniwa> Hixie: or maybe we'll just lose the market share because we decide not to implement it.
# [21:26] * Quits: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [21:26] <Hixie> uh huh
# [21:26] <Hixie> hober: aren't bugs supposed to get some boilerplate when they're closed? (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16793)
# [21:28] * Quits: nvartolomei (~nvartolom@178.168.103.7) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [21:29] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@ix-2-0-0-155.core4.LDN-London.as6453.net)
# [21:34] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@66-87-2-16.pools.spcsdns.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [21:36] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@ix-2-0-0-155.core4.LDN-London.as6453.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [21:36] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
# [21:41] <cabanier> jacobolus: I got some info from the photoshop engineers.
# [21:42] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@s1106056.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
# [21:42] <cabanier> jacobolus: exclusion doesn't give intuitive or useful results in Lab mode. The blending modes are meant to be visually pleasing, not mathematically correct
# [21:42] <hober> Hixie: yes
# [21:42] <hober> Hixie: looks like jay doesn't know that
# [21:43] <hober> Hixie: i will bug him
# [21:43] <cabanier> jacobolus: people who want to emulate the math behind exclusion can do it themselves
# [21:44] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106056.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [21:44] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
# [21:46] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.193.125.getinternet.no)
# [21:47] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@66-87-0-183.pools.spcsdns.net)
# [21:55] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-ulkthwgvqeizjygb)
# [21:56] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@78-3-31-178.adsl.net.t-com.hr)
# [21:56] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@host-95-199-30-163.mobileonline.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [21:57] * Joins: tomasf (~tom@c-41d8e555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
# [21:58] * Joins: thisgeek_ (~chris@ool-45757d25.dyn.optonline.net)
# [21:59] * Quits: thisgeek (~chris@ool-45757d25.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [21:59] * thisgeek_ is now known as thisgeek
# [21:59] * Quits: rwaldron (~rwaldron@209-6-71-27.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [21:59] * Quits: dgathright (~dgathrigh@nat/yahoo/x-bjqkptufmqhwksnp) (Quit: dgathright)
# [22:01] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.51.161) (Quit: nn)
# [22:03] <Hixie> hober: k
# [22:08] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
# [22:16] * Joins: graememcc_ (~chatzilla@host86-147-206-1.range86-147.btcentralplus.com)
# [22:16] * Quits: graememcc (~chatzilla@host86-147-206-255.range86-147.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [22:17] * graememcc_ is now known as graememcc
# [22:19] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@66-87-0-183.pools.spcsdns.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [22:20] * Joins: imsky (~imsky@99-38-162-2.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net)
# [22:21] * Quits: graememcc (~chatzilla@host86-147-206-1.range86-147.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713224749])
# [22:24] * Joins: danbri_ (~danbri@78-2-140-73.adsl.net.t-com.hr)
# [22:27] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@78-3-31-178.adsl.net.t-com.hr) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
# [22:30] <jacobolus> cabanier: the reason that's unsatisfying as answers is (1) exclusion mode never gives visually pleasing results, in any color space; it's purely for tricky special effects or as an intermediate step in something else, and really only useful to someone who knows what's going on, and the “usefulness” is identical in RGB or Lab, (2) it's not possible to "emulate" the result in any obvious way, except by through a bunch
# [22:30] <jacobolus> of explicit manual steps, or by doing some math in an external tool, or similar. There's no way to do it that is anywhere near so useful when you're actively working in photoshop and exclusion mode would enable some truly awesome possibilities
# [22:31] <jacobolus> also (3) no one but an expert is using Lab mode anyhow, because none of the tools are very well optimized for it. This is yet another limitation that makes it less pleasant than RGB, and this time an entirely arbitrary one
# [22:33] <jacobolus> but anyway, oh well. I came to accept that it wouldn't happen several years ago. not worth worrying too much about
# [22:35] * Joins: rwaldron (~rwaldron@209-6-71-27.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com)
# [22:35] * Quits: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB1A29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Bye, bye! See you on http://leanbackplayer.com)
# [22:39] * Joins: yod (~ot@cpc4-dals17-2-0-cust120.hari.cable.virginmedia.com)
# [22:41] * Joins: dgathright (~dgathrigh@nat/yahoo/x-nsrtqkggchyrbdsd)
# [22:44] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [22:45] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [22:45] * Joins: gavin__ (~gavin@76.14.87.162)
# [22:45] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@203.196.177.156) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [22:49] * Quits: danbri_ (~danbri@78-2-140-73.adsl.net.t-com.hr) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [22:49] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@78-2-140-73.adsl.net.t-com.hr)
# [22:50] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaabb-74736162.cust.telenor.se)
# [22:51] * Quits: thisgeek (~chris@ool-45757d25.dyn.optonline.net) (Quit: thisgeek)
# [22:54] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@78-2-140-73.adsl.net.t-com.hr) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [22:54] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@78-2-140-73.adsl.net.t-com.hr)
# [22:58] * Quits: sarro (~sarro@i5E86451D.versanet.de)
# [22:59] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [22:59] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
# [22:59] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@78-2-140-73.adsl.net.t-com.hr) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [23:02] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaabb-74736162.cust.telenor.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [23:07] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@93-103-104-107.dynamic.t-2.net) (Quit: sedovsek)
# [23:10] * Joins: FedorEmelianenko (~fedor@151.74.100.96)
# [23:20] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@s1106224.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
# [23:21] * Quits: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com) (Quit: yodasw16)
# [23:22] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106056.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [23:22] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
# [23:25] * Quits: Stevef (~chatzilla@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [23:30] * Quits: Kolombiken (~Adium@c80-216-10-244.bredband.comhem.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [23:30] * Joins: Druide_ (~Druid@p5B135944.dip.t-dialin.net)
# [23:33] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
# [23:33] * Quits: Adawerk (~ada@169.241.49.57) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [23:34] * Joins: Adawerk (~ada@169.241.49.57)
# [23:36] * Quits: TabAtkins (tabatkins@nat/google/x-kqgaoryqspraydzg) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [23:46] <Hixie> who's css3 ui's editor currently?
# [23:46] <Hixie> or selectors, i guess
# [23:46] <Hixie> let me rephrase
# [23:46] <Hixie> who is in charge of the :read-only and :read-write selectors?
# [23:47] * BennyLava` is now known as BennyLava
# [23:47] <Hixie> no tab, no tantek, no ms2ger
# [23:48] * Hixie checks his calendar to make sure he's not missing some event or something
# [23:48] * Quits: yod (~ot@cpc4-dals17-2-0-cust120.hari.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [23:51] * Joins: TabAtkins (tabatkins@nat/google/x-peoebedqzrqioouz)
# [23:52] <hober> tantek's editing css3 ui, and fantasai is editing selectors 4
# [23:57] * ojan_away is now known as ojan
# [23:58] <Hixie> k
# Session Close: Fri Aug 24 00:00:00 2012

The end :)