/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-08-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 31 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Subcide> Hey guys, are there any known problems with the unsubscribe function on the mailing list that anyone's aware of? I'm completely unable to unsubscribe at the moment.
  4. # [00:00] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  5. # [00:05] <Hixie> Subcide: should be working... can you walk me through what you're doing and what it did?
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  7. # [00:08] <Subcide> Entered my email address on http://lists.whatwg.org/options.cgi/implementors-whatwg.org and clicked unsubscribe. It says an email confirmation will be sent, but I never receive it.
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  10. # [00:09] <Subcide> Checked every possible trash, junk, etc.
  11. # [00:09] <Subcide> Password reminders don't get to me either.
  12. # [00:11] <Hixie> what list are you trying to unsubscribe from?
  13. # [00:12] <Hixie> and what e-mail address are you subscribed with?
  14. # [00:12] <Subcide> Damnit, was on the wrong list page.
  15. # [00:13] <Subcide> System probably shouldn't say it's sent an email when the address is invalid for a list ;)
  16. # [00:14] <Hixie> that'll do it :-)
  17. # [00:14] <Subcide> Thanks :)
  18. # [00:15] <gsnedders> Asking someone for help oftens helps you realize you're being silly. :)
  19. # [00:16] <Subcide> As a designer, I blame poor UX ;)
  20. # [00:16] <gsnedders> I do this with doors frequently. I want to know whether to push or pull the door1
  21. # [00:16] <gsnedders> *!
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  23. # [00:18] <Subcide> One day, when Apple make doors, they'll make sense. And only need to be replaced every 3 years or so.
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  27. # [00:28] <Philip`> They should avoid the push/pull problem by making circular doors which you spin anticlockwise to open and clockwise to close
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  51. # [00:48] <zewt> (then they'll sue everyone else who makes doors)
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  67. # [01:21] <Hixie> jesus wept, there is _no_ interop here
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  71. # [01:25] <gsnedders> Pretty certain that's too long to be the shortest verse in the Bible.
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  74. # [01:28] <Hixie> looks like opera doesn't fire onunload during document.open(), and if you call document.open() in unload, it essentially cancels the unload
  75. # [01:29] <gsnedders> We basically never fire unload.
  76. # [01:30] <gsnedders> Basically, count yourself lucky if you ever get an unload event. :)
  77. # [01:30] <Hixie> firefox just ignores document.open() and document.write() in unload, and doesn't fire onunload for document.open()
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  79. # [01:32] <Hixie> chrome doesn't fire onunload during document.open(), but allows document.open() during onunload, though it doesn't cancel the unload
  80. # [01:33] <Hixie> (so you can't see it)
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  82. # [01:33] <Hixie> (except in logs)
  83. # [01:33] <Hixie> safari matches chrome
  84. # [01:33] <Hixie> anyone got IE handy?
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  86. # [01:39] <Hixie> interesting. chrome _does_ fire onunload for nested iframes during document.open().
  87. # [01:39] <Hixie> firefox too
  88. # [01:40] <Hixie> (not opera, but that fits gsnedders' point)
  89. # [01:41] <Hixie> safari does too
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  91. # [01:52] <Hixie> so i guess the simplest solution here is to make the spec not fire unload events at documents that are currently executing document.open()
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  93. # [01:55] <Hixie> chrome doesn't fire beforeunload at all, it seems, in document.open
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  95. # [01:56] <Hixie> opera doesn't seem to fire it at all (?)
  96. # [01:57] <Hixie> safari's the same as chrome
  97. # [01:58] <Hixie> firefox fires it, though seems to ignore the result (?)
  98. # [01:58] <Hixie> and doesn't seem to fire it for any frames, nested or otherwise, if the outer frame calls document.open() during beforeunload...
  99. # [01:59] <Hixie> damnit, i really need to test ie here
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  104. # [02:08] <Hixie> ok... IE does run beforeunload, but doesn't fire it for subframes... similar to Firefox... but if you cancel it, the previous (outer) document.open() has no effect, it seems
  105. # [02:09] <Hixie> but if you don't cancel it, it doesn't do anything at all?
  106. # [02:09] <Hixie> wtf
  107. # [02:09] <Hixie> it does fire unload for the nested frame
  108. # [02:09] <Hixie> but not the outer frame
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  113. # [02:34] <TabAtkins> jgraham: inputmodes are generally just meant for soft keyboards, no? So it would work like the other examples - it would have a barcode button on whatever keyboard it normally pops up.
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  116. # [02:41] <Hixie> TabAtkins: are there examples of OSes that support doing that?
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  118. # [02:42] <TabAtkins> Not that I know of.
  119. # [02:42] <TabAtkins> (Because no mobile OS has a built-in barcode reader, I think.)
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  146. # [03:06] <Hixie> i think taking out the onbeforeunload for document.open() probably makes sense too, given the difficulty in working out what it even means
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  171. # [04:42] <GPHemsley> element width trumps NBSP, right?
  172. # [04:42] <GPHemsley> explicit element width, that is
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  174. # [04:59] <zewt> there's nothing special about nbsp in html, right? just a character that looks like a space but isn't a word break
  175. # [04:59] <zewt> (html has enough weirdness that I wouldn't be surprised if there was some random exception, but, well, hoping not and all that)
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  180. # [05:16] <zewt> waiting for onload/onerror for an arbitrary image sure is a brittle pain without img.complete
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  189. # [06:18] <Hixie> zewt: i think you're right, but check css and zcorpan's quirks spec
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  199. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> when was AddSearchProvider added?
  200. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> does anybody implement it?
  201. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> oh
  202. # [07:47] <Hixie> pretty sure that's an ancient IE thing
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  204. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> yeah
  205. # [08:01] <gavin> Firefox implements it
  206. # [08:02] <gavin> didn't seem that ancient to me but I guess we landed that in 2006 :/
  207. # [08:02] <gavin> (bug 337780)
  208. # [08:13] <smaug____> looks like a Google thing ;)
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  214. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> I asked because html5test dude includes in his tests
  215. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> god knows why
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  218. # [08:41] <zcorpan> sigh
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  233. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> friends, I'm looking for a rough estimate of how much the performance of JS engines has improved over the last 4 years
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  236. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> would it be accurate to say that current JS engines are on the order of 50 times faster than they were 4 years ago?
  237. # [09:27] <paul_irish> MikeSmith: i got data for you
  238. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> ok cool
  239. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> gimme data
  240. # [09:27] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@128-69-102-87.broadband.corbina.ru)
  241. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> Feed me, Mandrake
  242. # [09:31] <paul_irish> MikeSmith: well. here is sunspider ie6-ie10 https://github.com/h5bp/lazyweb-requests/issues/11#issuecomment-2642244
  243. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> oool
  244. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> thanks
  245. # [09:32] <paul_irish> and here is dromaeo ie8 - http://paulirish.com/i/d914c0.png
  246. # [09:32] <paul_irish> ie8 through june 2012
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  249. # [09:34] <paul_irish> MikeSmith: so.. based on the dromaeo, we're about 10x over 4 years ago
  250. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> oh
  251. # [09:35] <paul_irish> but its mostly a DOM speed test.
  252. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  253. # [09:35] <paul_irish> if octane ran on ie8 it'd more illuminating, i bet
  254. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> I wonder if there are some other ways to give some quantitative info about the JS performance improvements, other than just benchmark data
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  259. # [09:44] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Like what? At the point where you start getting quantative information from a specific application, it more or less *is* a benchmark, by definition
  260. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> yeah
  261. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> trying to figure out how to explain in to a reporter
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  263. # [09:45] <jgraham> I mean a more relevant/understandable metric might be "these applications run fine on modern JS engines but are unusably slow on older browsers on the same hardware"
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  265. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> yeah true
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  268. # [09:50] <jgraham> Hixie: So, did you put your unload + document.open tests anywhere?
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  272. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> I find the best way to respond to reporters is to mostly not pay attention to the actual questions they're asking me but instead regardless of the question just steer it around so I keep repeating what I want them to put into the article
  273. # [10:00] * jgraham adds "politician" to MikeSmith's career options
  274. # [10:00] <odinho> lol
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  277. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> well, reporters are tricky dogs
  278. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> so you have to respond in kind
  279. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> they ask questions in this form like, "Would it be fair to say that...?"
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  281. # [10:03] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, thanks for the component :)
  282. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> np
  283. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> when they ask those questions, and if you say, "I dunno, I guess so, maybe", then they ends up writing that you believe that, in a way that makes it sound like you were the one who suggested it
  284. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> or after you tell them something, they say, "OK, understood, so from that would it be fair to say that you believe [some gross mischaracterization of what you just told them]."
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  286. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> they basically have already written the article in their heads and they want to mis-ascribe the opinions to you
  287. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> anyway
  288. # [10:07] <jgraham> MikeSmith: So it would be fair to say that you think that all journalists should be sentenced to death?
  289. # [10:07] * attiks|away is now known as attiks
  290. # [10:08] <Ms2ger> Looks like jgraham missed out on a career in journalism
  291. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> jgraham: :-)
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  293. # [10:10] <odinho> Hmmmm. Robert Berjon made manifests for stuff in webapps, but he names it manifest.txt not MANIFEST as we've used before. http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/rev/47eb68524cc5
  294. # [10:12] <jgraham> What's the point of those manifests?
  295. # [10:12] <Ms2ger> Oh, those are the useless CSSWG manifests
  296. # [10:12] <jgraham> They list which files are tests, which is fair enough]
  297. # [10:12] <jgraham> But they also give the test title? But no information about what part of the spec it is testing?
  298. # [10:13] <odinho> Seems a bit weird, I've used Ms2ger's version, where the normal version is just to list the names of the tests.
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  302. # [10:17] <smaug____> Ms2ger: what is happening with parsing and serialization?
  303. # [10:17] <smaug____> you're writing a whatwg spec and MS writing w3 spec?
  304. # [10:18] <Ms2ger> Apparently so
  305. # [10:18] <smaug____> fun :/
  306. # [10:18] <smaug____> how did that happen
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  311. # [10:26] <Ms2ger> HTMLWG
  312. # [10:26] * Joins: yod (~ot@cpc4-dals17-2-0-cust120.hari.cable.virginmedia.com)
  313. # [10:26] <Ms2ger> And people who have to much time on their hands and nothing useful to do
  314. # [10:26] <Ms2ger> *too much
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  316. # [10:27] <smaug____> Ms2ger: whaat? HTML Wg caused that?
  317. # [10:27] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  318. # [10:28] <smaug____> More reasons to not care about HTML Wg
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  320. # [10:29] * Ms2ger didn't need more reasons :)
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  342. # [11:25] <Martin_L> Hi. I get mixed signals whether width/height-attributes on the img-tag are deprecated or not in html5. What is the case here, in´s in, it´s out or circumstatial?
  343. # [11:25] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
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  345. # [11:27] <Martin_L> F.e. Eric Meyer´s debug stylesheet, and some other sources says it´s out. Many other tuts and discussions says they are still kickin
  346. # [11:28] <tomasf> I don't see why they would be deprecated. they serve a valid purpose, don't they?
  347. # [11:28] <tomasf> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-map-element.html#dimension-attributes
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  349. # [11:28] <tomasf> wait, oh
  350. # [11:29] <jgraham> Martin_L: In the spirit of "teach a man to fish" - http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-img-element
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  352. # [11:30] <Martin_L> jgraham: I agree, they serve a valid purpose, yes.
  353. # [11:30] <jgraham> Martin_L: (I didn't say that; tomasf did)
  354. # [11:31] <Martin_L> jgraham: tomasf: Oh crap, of cause. Sorry about that.
  355. # [11:32] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  356. # [11:33] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: reminder
  357. # [11:35] <Martin_L> tomasf: So I guess they are in then. Makes good sense. Thanks!
  358. # [11:35] <tomasf> np
  359. # [11:36] <odinho> zcorpan: Ms2ger got it already.
  360. # [11:36] <Martin_L> jgraham: And thank you too of cause
  361. # [11:36] <odinho> Martin_L: Never be afraid of reading the spec ;-)
  362. # [11:37] <Martin_L> odinho: Thats true :)
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  372. # [11:59] <odinho> Is it really intended that we can't use variables in a sensible way any more? I mean I like [TreatUndefinedAs=Missing], why is it so discouraged to use?
  373. # [12:00] <odinho> I have to write totally stupid js code all the time to work around that.
  374. # [12:00] <Ms2ger> If you pass a variable, you pass it, no? :)
  375. # [12:01] <odinho> like openCursor(key, direction); if direction is undefined, I have to set it to "next" manually. I don't see why it can't just fall back to its own default there.
  376. # [12:01] <odinho> I mean it stringifies undefined to "undefined" and throws.
  377. # [12:01] <odinho> That's rather unhelpful imho.
  378. # [12:01] <jgraham> odinho: That's how JS works
  379. # [12:01] <odinho> So I have to do something like dir ? : dir = "next"; all over the place
  380. # [12:02] <odinho> And even for something like IndexedDB open, it's impossible to get the same behaviour with open('name', <second arg>) that you can get with open('name')
  381. # [12:03] <odinho> It's two different code paths. Not really that different, but you'll have to do if (version) open(name, version) else open(name)
  382. # [12:04] <odinho> *supershrug*
  383. # [12:04] <odinho> Have to litter my code with stupid do-no-good tests. Grr. OK, rant over.
  384. # [12:05] * Peter` is now known as beverloo
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  389. # [12:21] <jgraham> Hmm, so if I window.open a window and then window.open a new document into the same window (by naming it the same), can I get the load event on the second document?
  390. # [12:21] <jgraham> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=1730 doesn't work
  391. # [12:24] <jgraham> (in Opera it doesn't seem to be possible to get the load event at all)
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  397. # [12:54] <smaug____> jgraham: shouldn't you use window.open
  398. # [12:54] <smaug____> not document.open
  399. # [12:55] <smaug____> or maybe it doesn't matter
  400. # [12:55] * smaug____ didn't remember this: // When called with 3 or more arguments, document.open() calls window.open().
  401. # [13:09] <jgraham> smaug____: That's exactly what I was testing
  402. # [13:10] <jgraham> But I can't really work out how to write a test that shows that the name argument is obeyed if I can't work out when the second document is loaded
  403. # [13:10] <jgraham> Also, I can't really work out why there is no event, so that is something that ought to be tested on its own
  404. # [13:20] <jgraham> (well of course I can write a test, just make the pass condition happen in a timeout. But that is ofc evil)
  405. # [13:22] * attiks is now known as attiks|away
  406. # [13:22] <zcorpan> jgraham: does it help if you use an iframe with name=x and 'x' in open()?
  407. # [13:25] <jgraham> zcorpan: Not obviously
  408. # [13:26] <zcorpan> i thought you could use onload on the iframe
  409. # [13:26] <zcorpan> but it's a different case from opening a window, so maybe both should be tested anyway
  410. # [13:27] <zcorpan> sorry if i just gave you more work :-P
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  412. # [13:29] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, rearranged a bit
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  415. # [13:35] <jgraham> zcorpan: No problem :) I already suffer from something like analysis paralysis writing tests here because there is so much to test, but working out the interesting cases is hard (it's all "what if I do X and then in the middle do something surprising"), then trying to write a test with a machine checkable pass condition turns out to be hard, or the test turns out to fail in some browsers for unrelated reasons, and then finally I find that the spec do
  416. # [13:36] <zcorpan> that the spec do...?
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  418. # [13:36] <jgraham> Oh man, did I not /load splitlong.pl
  419. # [13:36] <jgraham> zcorpan: No problem :) I already suffer from something like analysis paralysis writing tests here because there is so much to test, but working out the interesting cases is hard (it's all "what if I do X and then in the middle do something surprising"), then trying to write a test with a machine checkable pass condition turns out to be hard, or the test turns out to fail in some browsers for unrelated reasons, and then finally I find that the spec do
  420. # [13:37] <jgraham> ... implementation and don't know what to conclude (the spec is wrong, the implementations are wrong, life would be better sipping cocktails on a beach, etc.)
  421. # [13:38] <zcorpan> yeah
  422. # [13:38] <jgraham> So, using the load event on the iframe I can write the test I originally wanted to write, which is nice
  423. # [13:38] <jgraham> (albeit for iframes rather than windows)
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  433. # [14:12] <smaug____> jgraham: so, IIRC, in Gecko script can get the load event if the inner window is reused when loading a document to just-opened window
  434. # [14:13] * smaug____ wonder what is the name for inner window in the spec... I guess it is Window
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  439. # [14:20] <jgraham> smaug____: I am not sure I understand how that is different from what I tried
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  446. # [14:28] <smaug____> jgraham: oh, I wasn't trying say it is different
  447. # [14:28] <smaug____> just explaining what happens in Gecko
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  449. # [14:29] <smaug____> event listeners are added to the inner window, and if it changes while new document is loaded, then you ofc won't get events
  450. # [14:31] <jgraham> smaug____: But when I do win1 = window.open(/*stuff*/) and then attach a handler to win1.onload, I don't get a load event which only makes sense if the inner window changes after the event handler is attached, or the load event is sync
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  452. # [14:33] <smaug____> inner window changes after that, I think
  453. # [14:33] <smaug____> but before the load event fires
  454. # [14:33] <jgraham> So chagning the inner window is async?
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  456. # [14:33] * jgraham notes that per spec this should just be a normal navigation
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  458. # [14:36] <smaug____> jgraham: it is just a normal navigation
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  561. # [17:52] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  596. # [18:47] <tantek> dglazkov do you have a good morning script? ;)
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  598. # [18:54] <dglazkov> tantek: nope. Only the desire for world peace through cheerfulness :)
  599. # [18:54] <tantek> :)
  600. # [18:54] <tantek> are you going to TPAC this year?
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  602. # [18:55] <tantek> There's the start of a page about it on the W3C wiki: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2012
  603. # [18:56] * tantek is on the program committee for the plenary day: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2012-Committee
  604. # [18:56] <tantek> and we're doing our planning for it out in the open in case you're curious, want to lurk, have comments: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2012-Planning
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  607. # [19:04] <Hixie> jgraham: they're on hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/document/open/unload iirc
  608. # [19:04] <Hixie> jgraham: but they're not real tests yet
  609. # [19:05] <Hixie> 1. make the spec not fire unload events at documents that are currently executing document.open()
  610. # [19:05] <Hixie> 2. taking out the onbeforeunload for document.open()
  611. # [19:06] <Hixie> does that leave some sequence of events via nested iframes where you can get a loop...
  612. # [19:07] <Hixie> i guess not, since events only ever go down the tree, and each node can only get events so long as it's not doing d.o()
  613. # [19:07] * Hixie tries to update his tests
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  641. # [19:30] <Ms2ger> Yay, ap is quoting DOM 2 Events
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  643. # [19:30] <ap> Ms2ger: care to quote any spec at all?
  644. # [19:30] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-148-108.dynamic.telemach.ba) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  645. # [19:30] <Ms2ger> Sure
  646. # [19:30] <ap> Ms2ger: and if that spec disagrees with previous spec, be sure to explain in detail why that was OK
  647. # [19:31] <Ms2ger> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/webappapis.html#eventhandler
  648. # [19:31] <Ms2ger> And http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#TreatNonCallableAsNull
  649. # [19:31] <Ms2ger> The spec disagrees with the previous spec because the previous spec wasn't implemented
  650. # [19:32] <Ms2ger> Except by webkit, apparently
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  652. # [19:33] <ap> Ms2ger: it would be more effective to post that in the bug
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  667. # [19:57] <Hixie> Ms2ger: yt?
  668. # [19:57] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  669. # [19:57] <Hixie> Ms2ger: MikeSmith asked us to let you know that he created the component for you so you can move the bugs over now
  670. # [19:58] <Ms2ger> Thanks, I already did :)
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  673. # [19:59] <Hixie> cool
  674. # [20:00] <Hixie> ok i have a test which opera fails in one way, mozilla fails in a second, and webkit fails in a third
  675. # [20:00] <Hixie> and now IE for tie breaker!
  676. # [20:00] <Hixie> crap. IE fails it in a fourth way.
  677. # [20:01] * Quits: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@31-33-178.wireless.csail.mit.edu) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  678. # [20:02] <Hixie> browsers suck.
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  680. # [20:03] <Hixie> IE appears to just end the script at document.open() during unload
  681. # [20:03] <Hixie> and opera ends the navigation
  682. # [20:04] <Hixie> both of those are too far from interop to be helpful
  683. # [20:04] <Hixie> gecko just ignores the document.write() calls
  684. # [20:04] <Hixie> that seems bad too
  685. # [20:04] <Hixie> that leaves webkit
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  687. # [20:05] <Hixie> which seems to run the unloads for subframes only once... in response to the document.open(), though, not the original nav, and then it doesn't run it again for the original nav
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  691. # [20:10] <Hixie> woah, document.open() in IE causes beforeunload to fire again
  692. # [20:10] <Hixie> also IE doesn't seem to fire pagehide at all
  693. # [20:11] <Hixie> i'm thinking a mixture of webkit and firefox behaviours is the way to go here
  694. # [20:11] <Hixie> have document.open/write work during unload, but make it so that the nested open() doesn't fire pagehide/unload events
  695. # [20:12] <Hixie> i wonder what happens when there's no navigation ongoing
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  699. # [20:19] <Hixie> ok now looking at 003, which tests what events fire with a naked document.open()
  700. # [20:19] <Hixie> opera doesn't fire any (and is a pain about it cos it nukes timeouts extra hard somehow)
  701. # [20:20] <Hixie> firefox fires beforeunload on the doc being opened, then beforeunload, pagehide, and unload on subframes
  702. # [20:20] <Hixie> but it screws up the beforeunload handling, we learnt that yesterday
  703. # [20:21] <Hixie> webkit does the same as firefox except with no beforeunloads, which makes slightly more sense i think
  704. # [20:22] <Hixie> IE seems to kill the timeouts as aggressively as opera (weird)
  705. # [20:23] <Hixie> but it fires beforeunload for the top-level then the iframe, then unload for the top-level then the iframe
  706. # [20:23] <Hixie> so i guess that's what i was testing when i specced the spec
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  708. # [20:26] <Hixie> and if you d.w() during the unload, IE jumps straight to the unloads, and then gives up on the original sequence of unloads...
  709. # [20:26] <Hixie> so you never get the inner frame's beforeunload
  710. # [20:26] <Hixie> interesting
  711. # [20:28] <Hixie> i don't understand what firefox does in this situation
  712. # [20:28] <Hixie> but not firing beforeunload seems reasonable
  713. # [20:28] <Hixie> so let's ignore beforeunload in this and try pagehide instead
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  715. # [20:29] <Hixie> not firing the top level unload and pagehide makes sense too
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  717. # [20:32] <Hixie> ok so if you have a subframe which, in its pagehide caused by the parent document.open()ing itself, tries to document.open() its parent, in firefox, you get two nested beforeunloads, but the second one doesn't see a pagehide
  718. # [20:34] <Hixie> o_O
  719. # [20:34] <Hixie> i got "parent is null" in one of these events (in an iframe)
  720. # [20:37] <Hixie> my head hurts
  721. # [20:38] <Hixie> that can't be right
  722. # [20:38] <Hixie> parent is null in unload in firefox?
  723. # [20:39] <Hixie> after you've done parent.document.write()?
  724. # [20:39] <Hixie> oh no
  725. # [20:39] <Hixie> nevermind
  726. # [20:40] <Hixie> IE seems to just have lots of checks that you're involved in a loop, which just bail out of the loop as soon as they detect one
  727. # [20:41] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  728. # [20:41] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  729. # [20:41] <Hixie> i don't understand what firefox is doing
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  731. # [20:42] <Hixie> or webkit for that matter
  732. # [20:42] * JohnAlbin is now known as JohnAlbin_zzzzzz
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  739. # [20:56] <Hixie> ok let's see... if we just make the unload algorithm bail on nested unloads, that's pretty close to what browsers do...
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  742. # [21:01] <Ms2ger> Hixie, I guess it's Anne's fault that http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/ doesn't update? :)
  743. # [21:01] <Hixie> yes
  744. # [21:01] <Hixie> i hope :-)
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  746. # [21:03] <Hixie> ...damnit, that breaks the regular nav case.
  747. # [21:03] <Hixie> hmm
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  757. # [21:22] <Hixie> wtf is webkit doing
  758. # [21:23] <Hixie> maybe it does everything up to the document.open(), but then runs the unload again, skipping any events that were sent the first time?
  759. # [21:23] <Hixie> hmm
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  761. # [21:25] <Hixie> oooh, interesting
  762. # [21:25] <Hixie> it _does_ ignore parent.document.open() from a child unload....
  763. # [21:26] <Hixie> well not so much ignore as abort...
  764. # [21:28] <Hixie> i'm rapidly starting to see the aesthetic beauty of firefox's hardline "no document.open() during unloads" approach
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  786. # [21:52] <Hixie> IE's behaviour here really makes no sense
  787. # [21:52] <Hixie> why would you call beforeunload again before aborting
  788. # [21:54] <Hixie> none of these browsers make any sense
  789. # [21:55] * Ms2ger points at the topic
  790. # [21:56] <Hixie> ok this is absurd
  791. # [21:56] <Hixie> IE behaves differently if i follow a link than if i reload than if i select the url in the address bar and hit enter
  792. # [21:57] <Hixie> it varies between opera's behaviour if i reload, doing nothing at all if i hit enter, and some wacky behaviour if i follow a link
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  825. # [23:21] <dsheets> "Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!" does not bode well.
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  832. # [23:28] <Hixie> dsheets: welcome to the web :-(
  833. # [23:29] * Hixie is living that catchphrase right now trying to work out how document.open() should work when called from the unload handled of an iframe that is being unloaded because a parent frame's document.open() was called
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  835. # [23:38] <dsheets> Hixie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion
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  838. # [23:43] <Hixie> quite
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  851. # Session Close: Sat Sep 01 00:00:00 2012

The end :)