/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-09-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Sep 04 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  35. # [02:48] <GPHemsley> Does anyone know if there's an ECMAScript IRC channel?
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  38. # [02:54] <benvie> kind of
  39. # [02:54] <benvie> on mozilla's irc there's #jslang
  40. # [02:54] <benvie> irc.mozilla.org
  41. # [03:00] <GPHemsley> ah, OK, thanks
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  48. # [04:17] <ubitux> it would be pretty nice if there was a webvtt sample file
  49. # [04:18] <ubitux> kind of a conformance ref file making use of all the features
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  51. # [04:21] <Hixie> ubitux: there's a sample file in the spec intro
  52. # [04:21] <Hixie> ubitux: (doesn't use all the features)
  53. # [04:21] <ubitux> it is very limited
  54. # [04:21] <Hixie> (i don't speak japanese so it's hard for me to make a good one that uses the vertical text features)
  55. # [04:22] <ubitux> well even not that, i believe a file with a utf-8 bom, different timing formats, multilines events, and various nested tags would actually help
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  59. # [04:24] <zewt> (sounds like what you're actually looking for is a test suite)
  60. # [04:29] <ubitux> no, just a sample
  61. # [04:30] <ubitux> and sure, to be included in our own test suite at some point
  62. # [04:30] <ubitux> but well, for testing it's kind of nice too
  63. # [04:30] <ubitux> as well as having a quick overview of everything that needs support
  64. # [04:31] <ubitux> see for example http://unicorn.us.com/jacosub/demo.txt
  65. # [04:32] <ubitux> it's kind of helpful with advanced subtitles...
  66. # [04:35] <ubitux> should i open a bug on the bugzilla?
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  69. # [04:44] <ubitux> here we go, this is now #18770
  70. # [04:52] <Hixie> patches welcome :-)
  71. # [04:53] <tantek> Hixie, do you maintain a count of the # of times you end up saying that? ;)
  72. # [04:53] <Hixie> not that often :-)
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  86. # [05:53] <Von_Davidicus> Why is it, when I put an <object> element in my document head, do I get errors in HTML5? Never had that problem in XHTML 1.0 or HTML 4.01
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  89. # [05:59] <Von_Davidicus> Well, I think I can call my first serious HTML5 project "finished".
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  112. # [07:47] <annevk> ah
  113. # [07:47] <annevk> known issue
  114. # [07:47] <annevk> https://productforums.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/google-plus-discuss/oMgOFgpRjzA
  115. # [07:48] <annevk> what a crap URLs btw
  116. # [07:48] <Hixie> Von_Davidicus: what do you mean by "get errors in HTML5"?
  117. # [07:48] <Von_Davidicus> Validation errors.
  118. # [07:48] <Hixie> ah. because it's not valid :-)
  119. # [07:49] <Von_Davidicus> Okay... why was <object> elements in the <head> element deemed bad?
  120. # [07:49] <Hixie> doesn't work
  121. # [07:49] <Hixie> (none of the browsers implemented it)
  122. # [07:49] <Von_Davidicus> Was it exclusively for the [declare] attribute, then?
  123. # [07:49] <Hixie> pretty much
  124. # [07:50] <Von_Davidicus> Oh, okay.
  125. # [07:50] * Von_Davidicus uses it for SVG declarations and preloading images.
  126. # [07:50] <Hixie> does it work in browsers?
  127. # [07:50] <Hixie> i mean, do they put it in the <head> in the DOM?
  128. # [07:50] * Von_Davidicus goes and checks.
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  130. # [07:59] <Von_Davidicus> Hm. FizzleFox, Slopera, Google Groan, and are putting it in the <body>.
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  132. # [08:00] * Von_Davidicus is disappointed.
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  135. # [08:02] <Von_Davidicus> Back. Somehow I ended up leaving. :(
  136. # [08:02] <Hixie> that's what i call interoperability, it's a good thing :-)
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  138. # [08:02] <Hixie> (and also why it's non-conforming now)
  139. # [08:03] * Von_Davidicus grumps at browsers. GRUMPS! *
  140. # [08:03] <Hixie> for following the spec? :-)
  141. # [08:04] <Von_Davidicus> For not following an outdated one!
  142. # [08:05] * Von_Davidicus guesses he'll ave to put the <object> element somewhere in the body.
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  146. # [08:11] * Von_Davidicus sticks it just before the menu and changes the <object> element to <div>*
  147. # [08:11] <Von_Davidicus> Hm... seems to work just as well. http://www.mrinitialman.com/
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  149. # [08:16] <Von_Davidicus> I "preloaded" the image so my CSS rollovers would work properly.
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  236. # [12:58] <Ms2ger> annevk, yt?
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  243. # [13:30] <annevk> Ms2ger: yup
  244. # [13:31] <Ms2ger> Is it just me, or is the isEqualNode spec wrong if the context object has more attributes than the argument?
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  246. # [13:33] <annevk> see under -> Element
  247. # [13:34] <Ms2ger> Ah, right
  248. # [13:34] <Ms2ger> Well hidden
  249. # [13:34] <Ms2ger> (Or, I can't read)
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  251. # [13:34] <annevk> feel free to move it around as you see fit
  252. # [13:34] <annevk> it's not the best wording
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  260. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> w3c bugzilla is down
  261. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> systems team is working on it
  262. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> other stuff down too
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  275. # [15:07] <odinho> Chrome guys, think you have a regression, don't have old versions in though so can't really check. :-(
  276. # [15:07] <Ms2ger> ^ helpful guy
  277. # [15:07] <odinho> http://odin.s0.no/web/theora-video/video.htm << streaming video from icecast using ogg theora used to work.
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  279. # [15:08] <odinho> Ms2ger: Hehe... I meant they're kinda hard to find. :-)
  280. # [15:10] <odinho> (that is, I found it for Windows, but no Linux)
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  282. # [15:11] <gsnedders> odinho: BUT YOU NEED THE LATEST VERSION OR YOU'RE HOLDING THE WEB BACK!
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  284. # [15:12] <odinho> gsnedders: But but... Regression. test. Help... Nice guy.
  285. # [15:12] <gsnedders> odinho: BE HORRIBLE.
  286. # [15:14] <odinho> gsnedders: Okay, I'll sniff it and say "get a better browser", then :-D
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  299. # [15:49] <jgraham> "Umm, isn't the before method the wrong way round? I thought div2.before(div1) would put div2 before div1" - Opera developer on reading the new DOM4 mutation methods
  300. # [15:51] <jgraham> "there is a typo in the spec as well"
  301. # [15:52] <jgraham> "'the append nodes method must run these steps' should be nodes"
  302. # [15:52] <jgraham> *shoulfd be node
  303. # [15:52] <jgraham> (I am just quoting haven't checked)
  304. # [15:52] <jgraham> Ms2ger, annevk ^
  305. # [15:53] <Ms2ger> Those new things are annevk's thing
  306. # [15:53] <annevk> please file a bug on the typo
  307. # [15:53] <annevk> checking the other thing now
  308. # [15:54] <jgraham> The other thing isn't a "bug"
  309. # [15:54] <annevk> the before method matches http://api.jquery.com/before/
  310. # [15:54] <annevk> afaict
  311. # [15:54] <jgraham> It's a "oh this method does something different to what I expect"
  312. # [15:55] <annevk> jl/bratell prolly haven't used jQuery like the rest of the web? :)
  313. # [15:55] <jgraham> Right, this is bratell who afaik is not too familiar with jQuery
  314. # [15:55] <jgraham> But the number of future web developers who haven't used jQuery >> number of current web developers who have
  315. # [15:56] <annevk> maybe it helps if he thinks of it like insertBefore, but with the method directly on the object on which to insert things before
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  318. # [15:57] <annevk> also, Maciej suggested renaming them to addBefore/addAfter
  319. # [15:57] <jgraham> But usually a mehod on an object mutates that object, not its argument
  320. # [15:57] <annevk> does that help?
  321. # [15:57] <Workshiva> annevk: But if it
  322. # [15:57] <annevk> neither the object nor the argument is mutated
  323. # [15:57] <annevk> the parent is
  324. # [15:57] <Workshiva> it's on the object on which to insert things before, it's not like insertBefore
  325. # [15:57] <annevk> Workshiva: well yeah, that's kind of the point
  326. # [15:58] <jgraham> If the node didn't have a parent and now does have a parent that seems like a more substantial change than being the N+1th child
  327. # [15:58] <jgraham> instead of the Nth
  328. # [15:58] <annevk> before() cannot give a node a parent
  329. # [15:59] <Workshiva> insertBefore can
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  331. # [15:59] <jgraham> Really?
  332. # [15:59] <annevk> Workshiva: how?
  333. # [15:59] <jgraham> So if I p = createElement("p") and document.body.before(p), p doesn't end up with a parent node?
  334. # [16:00] <annevk> jgraham: I thought you meant body ending up with a parent node
  335. # [16:00] <Workshiva> annevk: p = createElement("p"); // no parent // document.body.firstChild.insertBefore(p) // now has a parent
  336. # [16:00] <Workshiva> Um, that was before I guess
  337. # [16:00] <jgraham> Right, it woudl if you write p.before(document.body)
  338. # [16:00] <Workshiva> See, it's already confusing me!
  339. # [16:01] <jgraham> (i.e. if the this object and the argument were swapped)
  340. # [16:01] <jgraham> Anyway, I don't know
  341. # [16:02] <annevk> again, comments on the suggested renaming welcome
  342. # [16:02] <jgraham> It seems to me that non-verb methods are pretty terrible and that this design is potentially confusing
  343. # [16:02] <annevk> updates next week ideally
  344. # [16:03] <Workshiva> assignSiblingRelationshipPreceding()
  345. # [16:07] <jgraham> element.assignRelationshipSiblingEarlier(), aliased as element.aRSE() to keep the names short and memorable
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  348. # [16:14] <odinho> lol
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  353. # [16:20] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  354. # [16:20] <odinho> I like addBefore, addAfter, -- they even have a better symmetry than before/insertBefore. But I think we are smart people and will be perfectly able to use whatever. But no more hard-to-write and long words like "stopPropagation". :-)
  355. # [16:21] <Workshiva> If we're going to be jquerish, why not "andThen" and "butFirst"?
  356. # [16:21] * attiks is now known as attiks|away
  357. # [16:22] <annevk> Workshiva: because only in your mind is that jQueryish
  358. # [16:23] <Workshiva> My mind sees no problem with that
  359. # [16:23] <zewt> stopPropagation isn't overly long (close to borderline, maybe, but only that); now, findElementById ...
  360. # [16:23] <annevk> get*
  361. # [16:23] <zewt> y
  362. # [16:23] <Workshiva> Clearly you meant to say getElementsByClassName
  363. # [16:23] <zewt> <- just got out of shower, slack requested :P
  364. # [16:24] <annevk> only granted for out of bed or drunk
  365. # [16:24] <odinho> zewt: I have problems writing it... Always have to stop and think about it... It could be cancelPropagation. There's also the preventDefault, cancelDefault, stopDefault. What was it now again :]
  366. # [16:24] * jgraham wonders if zewt put any clothes on
  367. # [16:25] <annevk> did jgraham just kill the conversation?
  368. # [16:25] <zewt> cool, adobe air just popped up a dialog saying "we have an update!!! [update now] [update later]" ... and "update now" was greyed out
  369. # [16:25] <odinho> Everyone picturing zewt naked
  370. # [16:25] <annevk> I have trouble picturing zewt
  371. # [16:25] <Workshiva> zewt sounds like a kind of newt
  372. # [16:26] <jgraham> It sounds a bit like a newt in a boyband
  373. # [16:26] <Workshiva> Maybe a very intense one, like zomg
  374. # [16:26] <zewt> annevk: if that makes it harder to picture me naked, then we can consider that a win for all of us
  375. # [16:26] <jgraham> Right, exactly
  376. # [16:26] <Workshiva> And newts tend to be naked, so I'm not really very affected
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  378. # [16:27] <jgraham> At risk on underailing the conversation, I think I like zewt's proposed Sync API better than sicking's
  379. # [16:27] <zewt> (no! don't derail a conversation about a bunch of guys picturing me naked!)
  380. # [16:27] <jgraham> But I am not convinced I have enough experience with this kind of thing to offer a convincing argument
  381. # [16:28] <Ms2ger> Wait, what did I just walk into?
  382. # [16:28] <jgraham> (I also like the idea that javascript should grow some primitives to make async stuff more linear)
  383. # [16:28] <jgraham> Ms2ger: zewt in the nude
  384. # [16:28] <odinho> Ms2ger: What did you just walk out of? (shower?)
  385. # [16:29] <Workshiva> jgraham: "zewde"
  386. # [16:29] <zewt> jgraham: in principle--though it's probably too late in the game for this to fit--the "wait for message" api could have been the basis for all worker sync apis
  387. # [16:29] <zewt> eg. xhr.send(); getMessage(xhr.send()); // wait for what would have been the next message to the xhr client
  388. # [16:30] * Ms2ger puts on http://www.leekspin.com/ for fun
  389. # [16:30] <zewt> not quite as nice as a real sync API that returns stuff and throws exceptions, but without the need to fork every single async API into two interfaces
  390. # [16:31] <zewt> reader = new FileReader(blob); arrayBuffer = getMessage(reader);
  391. # [16:31] <zewt> oh well
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  417. # [17:50] <matjas> would other ECMAScript engine implementors be open to escaping ', < and > as well as " in the String.prototype HTML extensions, as per V8? http://code.google.com/p/v8/issues/detail?id=2217#c15
  418. # [17:52] <matjas> seems a bit over the top to me, but hey
  419. # [17:52] <jgraham> matjas: I'm pretty sure we would try anything once
  420. # [17:53] <matjas> jgraham: reason V8 does the extra escapes is: '_'.link('<script>...').substring(1);
  421. # [17:53] <matjas> but, like, *everything* is potentially dangerous
  422. # [17:55] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  424. # [18:03] <deane> dglazkov: Good morning.
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  426. # [18:10] <annevk> jgraham: going to update james.html5 at some point again?
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  429. # [18:13] <jgraham> annevk: What happened to whatever used to be there?
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  433. # [18:17] <annevk> jgraham: I don't know, I think you might have cleared it when there was some spam issue
  434. # [18:18] <annevk> with the idea of putting it back later
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  441. # [18:26] <niloy> Please bring back WebSQL T____T, if not for the browser, then atleast for the native apps build with web techs T____T
  442. # [18:27] <annevk> what is T____T?
  443. # [18:27] <zewt> T____________________________________T
  444. # [18:27] <annevk> it's an abbreviation?
  445. # [18:27] <zewt> perhaps "thrift" or "talent"
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  447. # [18:27] <annevk> I don't understand the longer form either
  448. # [18:28] <annevk> I take he might have meant the variant with three underscores, as http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=T____T seems sketchy in this context
  449. # [18:28] <darobin> annevk: I think it's one of them emoticons thingies that the young'uns use nowadays
  450. # [18:29] <karlcow> >One issue is that the W3C geolocation API, used by web browsers to determine your location, doesn’t tell you how your location was acquired. Was it from a wireless network? A cell-tower? A passing drone, overhead? There’s no way to know and by extension no way to adjust expectations. — http://nearfuturelaboratory.com/2012/09/04/the-atlas-of-desire/
  451. # [18:30] <zewt> ( ﾟ∀ﾟ)
  452. # [18:30] <jgraham> darobin: All I am getting from it is "I'm a frog with crucifixes for eyes". Whichis interesting but doesn't seem that relevant to the point.
  453. # [18:31] <annevk> darobin: going to be one long blog post, huh? ;)
  454. # [18:31] <darobin> jgraham: I see no reason why frogs with crucifixes for eyes should be disenfranchised from the Web platform more than anyone else
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  456. # [18:32] <darobin> annevk: beauty doesn't count the number of the years
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  459. # [18:36] <niloy> T_T is emote of crying, the T's are eyes
  460. # [18:36] <niloy> I am just crying sooooooooo much T_______T
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  463. # [18:38] <niloy> Well I hope Opera & Webkit keeps supporting them, we will all use it and someday and web & native apps, and someday everyone else will also have to support it!
  464. # [18:40] <zewt> javascript not scoping var to blocks repeatedly makes me :|
  465. # [18:40] <darobin> you just need to be more creative with your variable naming
  466. # [18:40] <zewt> i'd rather the scoping mechanism do its job, heh
  467. # [18:41] <zewt> (python has the same problem, unfortunately)
  468. # [18:41] <smaug____> use let :)
  469. # [18:41] <niloy> or iife
  470. # [18:41] <Hixie> odinho: there's a script they have that will do a binary search through old webkit builds to find when a regression happened
  471. # [18:42] <odinho> niloy: We (Opera) don't have any removal plans for websql. :-) But things can change, bla bla bla normal disclaimer talk.
  472. # [18:42] <niloy> odinho, yay we will win someday ^_^
  473. # [18:43] <zewt> smaug__________: if it actually worked in something other than FF, maybe :)
  474. # [18:44] * jwalden resists the urge to get all stabby about websql
  475. # [18:44] <odinho> Hixie: I remembered I had a virtualbox with Windows, so I was able to find an old chrome (8) and it worked there. But I'm onto something else now, I have the patience of a fly :P
  476. # [18:45] <niloy> btw for those using urban dictionary: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=t_t
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  478. # [18:45] <zewt> heh, i had to do a git bisect recently ... holy boring
  479. # [18:46] <Hixie> odinho: it's a pretty sweet script, it does all the downloading and binary search and stuff for you. But I forget what it's called. :-)
  480. # [18:46] <Ms2ger> Hixie, mozregression? :)
  481. # [18:47] <Hixie> it's the same idea, yeah
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  485. # [18:57] <annevk> Ms2ger: added a WebHook URL for DOM4 since you keep pushing
  486. # [18:57] <annevk> took me 10 minutes to learn shell/Apache interaction and that was that
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  488. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> \o/
  489. # [18:58] <annevk> relearn actually
  490. # [18:58] <annevk> not the first post-commit hook
  491. # [18:59] <annevk> Hixie: it comes down to curl https://raw.github.com/WHATWG/dom/master/dom-core.html > dom-core.html (plus some stuff to make it not 500) so if you ever want to reclaim the subdomains that should be easy enough
  492. # [19:00] <Hixie> heh k
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  494. # [19:00] <Hixie> seems unlikely to ever occur :-)
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  496. # [19:01] <jgraham> Hixie: I'm noy sure it matters, but if you have document A with iframe B which itself has iframe C then it seems to me that, per the current spec, C can cause document.open to run in B during C's beforeunload
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  498. # [19:02] <Hixie> jgraham: seems plausible
  499. # [19:02] <Hixie> jgraham: is that a problem?
  500. # [19:02] <jgraham> Hixie: I don't know
  501. # [19:02] <Hixie> jgraham: i guess it'll do a double unload?
  502. # [19:02] <Hixie> file a bug if you want me to look at it in more detail
  503. # [19:03] <jgraham> OK, I will see if I think of a case where it's a problem
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  506. # [19:14] <Hixie> jgraham: as far as i can tell, the case simplifies to window A contains iframe B, B is navigated, B asynchronously invokes a task that synchronously does a beforeunload, during which A is document.open(), which synchronously does B's beforeunload reentrantly (but A and B can't document.open() at this point), followed by B's unload (d.o() is again neutered here), at which point B's original task does the original unload again.
  507. # [19:14] <Hixie> jgraham: which seems bad
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  517. # [19:28] <zewt> it's not the future until i can stop worrying about starting a paragraph in an email with the word "From"
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  553. # [20:31] <jwalden> GPHemsley: judging by every mailman web view in existence having >From in various bits of mail, the present past
  554. # [20:31] <GPHemsley> ah
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  582. # [21:29] <annevk> Ms2ger: it's had that text since Hixie wrote it back in 2005/2006 or so
  583. # [21:30] <annevk> Ms2ger: need a little more in the bug than "is that intentional?" to make it actionable
  584. # [21:30] <Ms2ger> Make it "test this, please", then :):
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  586. # [21:30] <Hixie> hm?
  587. # [21:31] <Ms2ger> XHR.getAllResponseHeaders
  588. # [21:31] <Ms2ger> And whether it should end with \r\n
  589. # [21:31] <Hixie> ah
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  593. # [21:34] <annevk> Ms2ger: if you split it with JavaScript later not having it end in \r\n is nicer
  594. # [21:34] <Ms2ger> I guess
  595. # [21:34] <Ms2ger> What do browsers do?
  596. # [21:34] <annevk> Ms2ger: but yeah, someone should update the XHR test suite, I tried to have odinho do that, but he found someone else, who likely dropped the ball
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The end :)