/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-09-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 14 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:20] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14689#c27 o-O
  12. # [00:20] <Hixie> darobin: you're fixing appcache?
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  14. # [00:22] <darobin> Hixie: the discussion is open, no decision has been made yet
  15. # [00:23] <darobin> right now I'm mostly listening to the Fixing AppCache people
  16. # [00:23] <Hixie> there are Fixing AppCache people?
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  18. # [00:24] <darobin> yeah there were two meetings, one in London, another in Mountain View with several implementers and die-hard users of appcache
  19. # [00:24] <Hixie> ah yes, i have heard of those
  20. # [00:25] <Hixie> none of the feedback from those meetings seems to ever make it to the bug database
  21. # [00:25] <darobin> by that I mean folks like Facebook, Pearson, Web Outlook, etc.
  22. # [00:25] <Hixie> at least not in actionable form (use cases)
  23. # [00:25] <darobin> no, the design is too much up in the air for that at this point
  24. # [00:26] <Hixie> what i have heard is mostly going to result in incremental changes, though, so i doubt it'll affect https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18272
  25. # [00:26] <Hixie> or https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18280
  26. # [00:26] <darobin> maybe, maybe not
  27. # [00:26] <Hixie> pretty sure not :-)
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  29. # [00:27] <darobin> I've heard both
  30. # [00:27] <darobin> I'm essentially moving those bugs to the later bucket until I hear something more concrete
  31. # [00:28] <Hixie> http://goo.gl/VrQNF is the concrete list of what is going to change
  32. # [00:28] <darobin> if it turns out to be incremental, I can look at them then, if not, then I'll be glad I didn't dig any deeper
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  37. # [00:30] <darobin> Hixie: last I heard there was still disagreement between implementers, so I just want to make sure all the Ts are crossed
  38. # [00:31] <Hixie> if they don't participate in the discussions, their disagreements aren't going to have much effect on the spec :-)
  39. # [00:32] <darobin> I think they plan to :)
  40. # [00:32] <darobin> anyway, it's bedtime in this TZ :) nn!
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  42. # [00:33] <othermaciej> Hixie, darobin: is there any written down and publicly viewable form of all this feedback?
  43. # [00:33] <othermaciej> as an implementor of AppCache that I think has not been party to these discussions, I am interested
  44. # [00:34] <othermaciej> darobin: you should really move deferred bugs to another component instead of RESOLVED LATER btw
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  66. # [01:09] <smaug____> huh, ringmark is a buggy test
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  69. # [01:09] <smaug____> it is sad that people rely on such tests
  70. # [01:10] <smaug____> and also things like html5test
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  73. # [01:10] <othermaciej> smaug____: what is buggy about ring mark?
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  76. # [01:10] <othermaciej> smaug____: html5test is unfortunately becoming a big deal in mobile browser marketing, I wonder if it would be useful to give feedback to the test creators
  77. # [01:11] <smaug____> it is testing stuff which explicitly should not be there
  78. # [01:11] <smaug____> like touch events
  79. # [01:11] <othermaciej> smaug____: and for ring mark in particular, I have the ability to contact the people at Facebook who made it directly
  80. # [01:11] <smaug____> they should not be there on non-touch platforms
  81. # [01:11] <othermaciej> so you think its testing for touch events should be conditional?
  82. # [01:11] <smaug____> I've filed bugs on html5test to remove invalid tests
  83. # [01:11] <othermaciej> or it should not test that at all?
  84. # [01:11] <smaug____> and add some possibly useful tests
  85. # [01:12] <othermaciej> how does one file bugs on html5test?
  86. # [01:12] <smaug____> github
  87. # [01:12] <othermaciej> I'd like to suggest that they move FileSystem API to bonus points
  88. # [01:12] <smaug____> there is a link somewhere in html5test to github
  89. # [01:12] <othermaciej> since there exist popular platforms today with no user-visible filesystem
  90. # [01:12] <smaug____> othermaciej: there are already couple of bugs open about Filesystem api
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  93. # [01:13] <smaug____> (btw, I think it should be discussed during TPAC what to do with filesystem api. I'd like to drop it)
  94. # [01:13] <smaug____> othermaciej: https://github.com/NielsLeenheer/html5test/issues/
  95. # [01:13] <othermaciej> perhaps it should be moved to the new WG proposed for system app APIs
  96. # [01:14] <smaug____> well, I think we shouldn't have the proposed filesystem api at all ;)
  97. # [01:14] <smaug____> but something better
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  99. # [01:15] <zewt> how?
  100. # [01:15] <smaug____> what how?
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  102. # [01:15] <othermaciej> I would be in favor of dropping it
  103. # [01:15] <zewt> better how?
  104. # [01:15] <zewt> the spec needs a lot of reworking, but the API is generally fine
  105. # [01:15] <smaug____> see comment in webapps wg mailing list
  106. # [01:16] <smaug____> comments
  107. # [01:16] <zewt> could you be more specific? heh
  108. # [01:16] <smaug____> othermaciej: I think everybody else but google is favor of dropping it
  109. # [01:16] <zewt> hasn't been anything about fsapi in quite a while
  110. # [01:16] <smaug____> zewt: because no one really cares about it :)
  111. # [01:16] <zewt> it's a pretty important API to bridge the current gulf between web apps and native anything
  112. # [01:16] <othermaciej> if only Google wants to implement it, then it probably should not be a standards-track document
  113. # [01:17] <othermaciej> WebSQL got dropped for less...
  114. # [01:17] * smaug____ tries to figure out where performance.memory is defined
  115. # [01:17] <smaug____> well, WebSQL was odd case, but rather obvious that it should be dropped
  116. # [01:17] <zewt> (debatable)
  117. # [01:17] <zewt> (but not really comparable)
  118. # [01:18] <smaug____> othermaciej: do you know if I can file bugs on ringmark somewhere?
  119. # [01:18] <smaug____> or just send emails to fb?
  120. # [01:18] <othermaciej> smaug____: I do not know, but I can personally send email to fb
  121. # [01:19] <othermaciej> smaug____: so if you mail me bugs I can pass them along, or I can ask about a way to file bugs
  122. # [01:19] <othermaciej> I'm on a plane right now so my mail and web are super slow
  123. # [01:19] * smaug____ could send emails to schrep but that is probably not the right level of management to send emails to
  124. # [01:20] <smaug____> is toby ever here
  125. # [01:20] <smaug____> from fb
  126. # [01:20] <othermaciej> http://rng.io/about/
  127. # [01:20] <othermaciej> gives info that might be relevant to sending feedback
  128. # [01:24] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  129. # [01:24] <othermaciej> chasing links, it looks like the only bug tracker is the Core Mobile Web Platform CG's issue tracker
  130. # [01:28] <smaug____> what is this performance.memory...
  131. # [01:31] <sicking> Hixie: i definitely think using *a* filesystem API for this might be a good solution
  132. # [01:32] <sicking> Hixie: i think the current google filesystem API is way more complex than what's needed for a filesystem API
  133. # [01:32] <smaug____> sicking: what that for Hixie or for zewt
  134. # [01:32] <sicking> smaug____: for hixie
  135. # [01:32] <smaug____> I agree *a* filesystem API is needed
  136. # [01:33] <sicking> <Hixie> sicking: can you elaborate on why you don't want to use the filesystem api for this? do you just not think we should have that api at all?
  137. # [01:33] <othermaciej> I'm not sure I agree that *a* filesystem API is necessarily needed, at least for all platforms
  138. # [01:33] <smaug____> othermaciej: that is possible
  139. # [01:33] <othermaciej> for platforms that don't expose a hierarchical filesystem to the user, it doesn't really make sense to have an API that works like that
  140. # [01:33] <sicking> othermaciej: in general, or for dragndrop?
  141. # [01:33] <smaug____> yup
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  144. # [01:34] * smaug____ still wonders what on earth is performance.memory
  145. # [01:34] <zewt> othermaciej: if they don't have any concept of that, then they wouldn't have any concept of "dragging in a directory" either
  146. # [01:34] <othermaciej> sicking: we had another conversation about filesystem API just now, I missed the original one with Hixie that I guess involved DnD
  147. # [01:35] <othermaciej> sicking: but I also don't think Drag & Drop makes sense on all platforms
  148. # [01:35] <sicking> othermaciej: i missed the later one :)
  149. # [01:35] <othermaciej> for instance, iOS has no drag * drop
  150. # [01:35] <othermaciej> and I do not think it even makes sense on a touch platform
  151. # [01:35] <sicking> othermaciej: agreed. I think that would simply result in not ever firing dragndrop events on iOS. Just like we'd never fire them in OSX if noone drops something
  152. # [01:36] <zewt> there are probably a bunch of things that I'd clean up in FS-API, and possibly some trimming, but it seems like the right direction
  153. # [01:36] <othermaciej> sicking: do you think it's appropriate to have all the interfaces relevant to DnD but just never invoke them on a platform with no DnD?
  154. # [01:36] <othermaciej> sicking: or would it be better to not expose the interfaces?
  155. # [01:36] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  156. # [01:37] <othermaciej> for FS API, I think it would be nutty to have all the interface objects but never let them be used in any way
  157. # [01:37] <sicking> othermaciej: oh. I suspect it makes sense that whatever interfaces exist for DND wouldn't exist on platforms that don't have DnD
  158. # [01:38] <sicking> othermaciej: we're mostly talking interface objects? Or is there more DnD API?
  159. # [01:38] <zewt> (eg. getMetadata seems unnecessary--it's redundant with simply creating a File)
  160. # [01:38] <miketaylr> smaug____: rwaldron (who isn't here right now) develops ringmark, you could email him rick@bocoup.com
  161. # [01:38] <smaug____> miketaylr: thanks
  162. # [01:39] <othermaciej> sicking: perhaps I should file a bug, because the spec is not very clear about what interfaces should be present or what the behavior should be on platforms with no DnD
  163. # [01:39] <miketaylr> np
  164. # [01:39] <sicking> othermaciej: On filesystems, I suspect what we need to do is to expose sandboxed filesystems to webapps. Similar to what chrome does. But it wouldn't be exposing a user-visible directory structure. It might not even be a real filesystem (chrome's FS API isn't actually backed by a filesystem)
  165. # [01:40] <sicking> othermaciej: but I don't like chromes FS API. I think we should propose a *much* simpler one
  166. # [01:40] <othermaciej> sicking: what's the benefit of making it look like a filesystem if it is not even backed by a filesystem?
  167. # [01:40] <sicking> othermaciej: the storage policy would be the same as what's used for WebSQL/IndexedDB
  168. # [01:41] <sicking> othermaciej: Mostly there are two advantages: 1. Many developers are very used to filesystems. Even for games that want to simply download and cache resources, saving them in a filesystem-like API is very natural for them
  169. # [01:41] <othermaciej> WebSQL and IndexedDB can store binary blobs just fine...
  170. # [01:41] <othermaciej> is it too complicated or confusing to use IndexedDB (let's say) for such a use case?
  171. # [01:42] <zewt> do IDB implementations store blobs out-of-line, eg. as their own file and not as a blob in the middle of a db file?
  172. # [01:42] <sicking> othermaciej: 2. URLs are hierarchical. Storing the files in a heirarchical storage area allows reading from that area directly using URLs
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  174. # [01:43] <sicking> othermaciej: *anything* more complex than "just a filesystem" is "too complicated"
  175. # [01:43] <othermaciej> so blob urls don't cut it?
  176. # [01:43] <sicking> othermaciej: blob urls have to be generated on each run
  177. # [01:44] <othermaciej> filesystems are pretty complicated
  178. # [01:44] <jsbell> zewt: Chrome doesn't handle Blobs in IDB yet. :(
  179. # [01:44] <sicking> othermaciej: the nice thing about a filesystem url is that you can just read from the database directly
  180. # [01:44] <sicking> othermaciej: they don't need to be
  181. # [01:44] <othermaciej> hierarchical by-name read-write store for opaque binary objects seems like an ok concept
  182. # [01:44] <othermaciej> but I am sad at how many storage APIs the platform has already
  183. # [01:45] <zewt> i'm wary of database-backed systems for storing large data (eg. gigabytes of dynamically-patched game data); multiple layers of fragmentation, etc (but if IDB implementations mature and it's proven to "just work" then I'd probably get over that)
  184. # [01:45] <sicking> othermaciej: i haven't worried too much about filesystem because i feel the same way, "it's just syntax sugar on top of a database. use a library over IDB/websql"
  185. # [01:45] <othermaciej> does filesystem API give you URLs that persist from run to run?
  186. # [01:45] <sicking> othermaciej: i still think that's mostly true. But I think a filesystem is generally worth it
  187. # [01:45] <sicking> othermaciej: it does
  188. # [01:46] <sicking> othermaciej: filesystem://http://mysite.com/path/in/filesystem/to/file.jpg
  189. # [01:46] <othermaciej> is IndexedDB incapable of providing persistent URLs or a hierarchical namespace?
  190. # [01:46] <zewt> i don't think persistent URLs are very important, though, since it's easy to go path -> blob -> createObjectURL (for a nonpersistent blob)
  191. # [01:46] <othermaciej> I am not very familiar with it
  192. # [01:46] <sicking> othermaciej: incapable is a strong word
  193. # [01:46] <othermaciej> I guess it's a two-level question:
  194. # [01:46] <sicking> othermaciej: but keys can be anything, not just strings
  195. # [01:46] <othermaciej> (1) is it unable to do it in the current drafts?
  196. # [01:47] <othermaciej> (2) is it conceptually/technologically hard to add such features?
  197. # [01:47] <jsbell> The transaction overhead might scare off some developers. On the other hand, the transaction overhead is what you really need for multiple tabs from the same origin that are partying on the same data, so...
  198. # [01:47] <othermaciej> I don't really see how you can sanely offer read-write stream access w/o some form of transactional layer
  199. # [01:47] <sicking> othermaciej: (1) it's not possible currently (2) it's possible, but it won't be terribly clean
  200. # [01:48] <sicking> othermaciej: each "add this file to the filesystem" would be a transaction. Which makes it mostly invisible
  201. # [01:48] <jsbell> "Proof by example": http://ericbidelman.tumblr.com/post/21649963613/idb-filesystem-js-bringing-the-html5-filesystem-api
  202. # [01:48] <zewt> jsbell: transactions and efficient, native files (ideal for large or growing files) are sort of mutually exclusive, though, since filesystem-level, cross-file transaction support is hit and miss (ntfs has transactional file access but I don't know much about that)
  203. # [01:49] <othermaciej> I might feel bad about "yet another storage api" if it did not have 22 new interfaces (adding on top of already existing reader and writer interfaces)
  204. # [01:49] <jsbell> zewt: +1, I share that concern.
  205. # [01:49] <othermaciej> sicking: filesystem API lets you write an existing file, no?
  206. # [01:49] <othermaciej> sicking: or read an existing file, by name
  207. # [01:49] <sicking> othermaciej: you mean, "not feel bad about ..."?
  208. # [01:49] <othermaciej> what if two tabs touch the same file at once?
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  210. # [01:49] <othermaciej> sicking: "feel less bad about"
  211. # [01:50] <sicking> othermaciej: ah
  212. # [01:50] <sicking> othermaciej: you should look at my DeviceStorage proposal :)
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  214. # [01:50] <Hixie> othermaciej: everything i know about the appcache stuff is http://goo.gl/VrQNF
  215. # [01:50] <othermaciej> pointer?
  216. # [01:50] <sicking> othermaciej: it's 3 interfaces currently. Probably will be 5 once it's fully capable
  217. # [01:50] <sicking> othermaciej: https://wiki.mozilla.org/WebAPI/DeviceStorageAPI
  218. # [01:51] <sicking> othermaciej: currently it's a filesystemAPI + "API for getting access to a filesystem rooted in users pictures folder"
  219. # [01:51] <sicking> othermaciej: but the filesystem part can easily be broken out
  220. # [01:51] <Hixie> smaug____: websql got dropped because the editor of that spec wouldn't spec something without wide adoption, dunno if the editor of the other specs you mentioned fall into that category ;-)
  221. # [01:52] <zewt> othermaciej: 22? looking through the TOC I see 19 (still a lot), but 8 of those are Callback=FunctionOnly callback interfaces (which while I don't know where that's defined--it's not in webidl--it sounds like "you can only pass in a function and this doesn't actually expose an interface")
  222. # [01:52] <zewt> which would be 11
  223. # [01:52] <zewt> not to say that's not still a lot :)
  224. # [01:52] <othermaciej> see, combining filesystem-as-virtual-local-hierarchical-storage and filesystem-as-way-to-access-directories-in-the-user's-filesystem is what makes it something that I'm not keen on
  225. # [01:53] <othermaciej> zewt: I am imagining that for the "I need to store some blobs in a hierarchy and access by name" use case, 1-2 interfaces are sufficient (building on top of File, FileReader, FileWriter and friends)
  226. # [01:53] <zewt> (but there are also sync and async interfaces; I don't think it's fair to count an API as double-the-interfaces just because it has sync worker support; though the sync-getMessage proposal might in principle mean we don't need any more sync APIs at all)
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  228. # [01:54] <zewt> ignore those and you're at 7
  229. # [01:54] <othermaciej> so even if we exclude the callback interfaces, we're still off by an order of magnitude
  230. # [01:54] <zewt> othermaciej: i do agree it can and should be simplified, though I'm not sure I'd go that far
  231. # [01:54] <othermaciej> yes, if you ignore 2/3 of the interfaces you get 1/3 as many
  232. # [01:54] <sicking> othermaciej: in what sense? You would prefer to have two separate APIs as to avoid author confusion about what they are working with? Or you want two separate APIs so that you can optimize for different usecases? Or something else?
  233. # [01:55] <zewt> yes, if I ignore interfaces that may not be needed and could be dropped, indeed I get less :)
  234. # [01:55] <othermaciej> the latter API is (a) not one that I'm sure we want to offer in Safari on any platform; and (b) more more complex than needed for the private-blob-store use case
  235. # [01:56] <zewt> (i suspect the FileSystem and Metadata interfaces could be dropped, too)
  236. # [01:56] <smaug____> Hixie: nope, they indeed don't fall into same category, which is why I said "WebSQL was [an] odd case"
  237. # [01:56] <sicking> othermaciej: i absolutely agree that if we add a filesystem API to be used for a sandboxed storage area, then it needs to be possible to implement *just* that. And not worry about access to pictures folder etc
  238. # [01:56] <Hixie> smaug____: i would hope that having an editor who cares about multiple vendor interop wasn't odd :-)
  239. # [01:56] <zewt> (FileSystem just stores a name, which doesn't seem needed, and Metadata is redundant with File)
  240. # [01:57] <smaug____> Hixie: well, Filesystem API is such case atm ;)
  241. # [01:57] <sicking> othermaciej: i also agree that the API shouldn't need to be meaningfully more complex out of desire to handle both cases
  242. # [01:57] <othermaciej> sicking: I'm on a plane using the in-flight wifi so your proposal is tragically slow to load
  243. # [01:57] <sicking> othermaciej: ah :)
  244. # [01:57] <othermaciej> sicking: otherwise I would be commenting on it instead of just hypothetically
  245. # [01:58] <zewt> (url? missed that)
  246. # [01:58] <sicking> othermaciej: i think we can solve all designed constraints here. But I agree we need a specific proposal before we can know for sure. I think the DeviceStorage API is close, but not quite there
  247. # [01:58] <sicking> zewt: https://wiki.mozilla.org/WebAPI/DeviceStorageAPI
  248. # [01:58] <smaug____> Hixie: er, I guess I mean, FSAPI is opposite of what you did
  249. # [01:58] <othermaciej> my theoretical minimum set of interfaces: Directory, some placeholder interface to get the root local storage Directory, callback interface for enumerating a Directory
  250. # [01:59] <sicking> othermaciej: i think you can do it without a Directory object
  251. # [01:59] <Hixie> smaug____: oh, i agree, i'm just hoping that the odd case is fsapi, not websql :-)
  252. # [01:59] <othermaciej> I would also question whether a hierarchical namespace is truly needed
  253. # [01:59] <sicking> "hierarchical namespace"?
  254. # [01:59] <Hixie> nested Directory objects
  255. # [01:59] <sicking> i say we don't need that
  256. # [02:00] <sicking> DeviceStorage doesn't have it
  257. # [02:00] <Hixie> if you don't have nested Directory objects, it's not clear that you need Directory objects at all -- just stick the Files in a database
  258. # [02:00] <othermaciej> then you only need a FileStore interface, a callback interface to enumerate the Files in FileStore, and a hook to get the FileStore
  259. # [02:00] <othermaciej> (maybe you just new FileStore())
  260. # [02:00] <Hixie> why isn't IndexDB that store?
  261. # [02:00] <Hixie> does it not handle Files?
  262. # [02:01] <zewt> well, you definitely need to be able to enumerate the files in a particular directory, but you don't necessarily need a Directory object to do that
  263. # [02:01] <Hixie> (Web Storage was that store for a while, but then we reverted to just text)
  264. # [02:01] <othermaciej> IndexedDB does not offer a persistent URL to refer to an entry
  265. # [02:01] <othermaciej> sicking says adding that would be awkward
  266. # [02:01] <Hixie> you just need to get a File out, no? then File can give you the url
  267. # [02:01] <zewt> (i don't understand the desire for persistent URLs either)
  268. # [02:02] <othermaciej> IndexedDB can in theory offer up blob: URLs but you have to make a new one each time
  269. # [02:02] <othermaciej> it would be nice to be able to store some markup referring to your stored resource items
  270. # [02:02] <othermaciej> without having to reconstitute the markup from a template each time
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  272. # [02:03] <Hixie> aah
  273. # [02:03] <Hixie> i see
  274. # [02:03] <Hixie> i guess that makes sense
  275. # [02:03] <Hixie> that'd be useful for appcache too
  276. # [02:04] <othermaciej> It seems to me IndexedDB could offer than in principle, but I'm willing to believe it would be awkward to fit into the API
  277. # [02:04] <othermaciej> (indexeddb://http://mydomain.com/key/path
  278. # [02:05] <jsbell> Is the desire to mint URLs like that and be able to pass them around to other parts of the platform that consume URLs?
  279. # [02:05] <zewt> i think that's always the goal with URLs
  280. # [02:06] <Hixie> jsbell: images are a classic example
  281. # [02:06] <sicking> in particular it's hard to make relative URLs work
  282. # [02:06] <othermaciej> that's what I presume
  283. # [02:06] <jsbell> if so... yeah, figuring out how to reconcile that with the transaction model would require thought
  284. # [02:06] <sicking> i.e. you'd want "foo/bar/baz.html" to be able to link to a file
  285. # [02:06] <sicking> and "foo/bar/bizzle/hello.jpg" to link to another file
  286. # [02:07] <othermaciej> jsbell: not sure it's that complicated - http: has an asynchronous request/response model, indexeddb: or filesystem: could too
  287. # [02:07] <zewt> can't recall--is there a way for URLs to specify a protocol and a path, but no host?
  288. # [02:07] <zewt> which seems like what you'd want here
  289. # [02:07] <othermaciej> jsbell: it just has to give you one consistent state, asynchronously
  290. # [02:07] <sicking> while URLs into IDB probably would be something like "databasename/objectstore/key/objectproperty"
  291. # [02:08] <sicking> yeah, i think the transaction part is solvable. Though possibly higher overhead than the transactions that govern a filesystem
  292. # [02:08] <sicking> but that might not even be true
  293. # [02:10] <jsbell> speaking of "databasename/objectstore/key/objectproperty" - the desire to read out just one property of an object has definitely come up as a pain point.
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  297. # [02:14] <othermaciej> sicking: ok, loaded your proposal
  298. # [02:14] <jsbell> zewt: indexeddb:///databasename/etc with an optional domain that is usually blank (like file:///...)... and someday there may be a cross-domain permission model
  299. # [02:14] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:1806:52e2:50c3:619)
  300. # [02:14] <othermaciej> sicking: I see ways to simplify further and some of the names are not my favorite but otherwise it's much closer to my design taste
  301. # [02:15] <sicking> othermaciej: i'm writing a new one which is more complete :) But you should be getting the basics of it.
  302. # [02:15] <othermaciej> sicking: not fully clear on what a DOMRequest is, is that a generic way to return an async result?
  303. # [02:15] <sicking> othermaciej: how would you simplify further?
  304. # [02:15] <othermaciej> sicking: I would say s/get/open/ s/getEditable/openForWrite/ or something
  305. # [02:15] <sicking> othermaciej: yeah. It's something we've used in a bunch of our new interfaces
  306. # [02:15] <othermaciej> as far as naming goes
  307. # [02:16] <sicking> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/base/nsIDOMDOMRequest.idl
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  311. # [02:16] <othermaciej> I would look for a way to get rid of DeviceStorageCursor
  312. # [02:16] <sicking> othermaciej: how?
  313. # [02:16] <othermaciej> it looks like you defined it twice though
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  315. # [02:16] <othermaciej> so might be over counting the interfaces
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  317. # [02:16] <zewt> sicking: fwiw, a way to convert blob -> file (attaching a name and mtime, with mtime being optional with a reasonable default) might be nicer than "addNamed"
  318. # [02:17] <othermaciej> I think a way to add an item without giving a name is unnecessary
  319. # [02:17] * Joins: ap_ (~ap@17.245.107.141)
  320. # [02:17] <zewt> fs.add(blob.getFile("foo.txt"))
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  322. # [02:17] <othermaciej> I think addNamed() should be create()
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  324. # [02:18] <sicking> othermaciej: indeed, unnamed files only makes sense for the "user's pictures folder" usecase
  325. # [02:18] <sicking> othermaciej: so we'd subclass for that i think
  326. # [02:18] <othermaciej> does DOMRequest have events?
  327. # [02:18] <othermaciej> is there a spec for it?
  328. # [02:18] <othermaciej> I can't tell how it works and thus do not understand what cursor is
  329. # [02:18] <zewt> why would pictures be unnamed?
  330. # [02:18] <sicking> othermaciej: it's basically the same as IDBRequest with some IDB specific stuff removed
  331. # [02:18] <othermaciej> sicking: for the "user's pictures folder" it's not clear to me you want to offer writing
  332. # [02:19] <othermaciej> sicking: but if you do, then surely it is named writing that you want
  333. # [02:19] <sicking> othermaciej: if you're building a web based OS you do :)
  334. # [02:19] <othermaciej> sicking: if NSDOMRequest could fire "success" multiple times and had a "done" event for that case, no extra interface would be needed
  335. # [02:20] <sicking> othermaciej: and make the .continue() call implicit?
  336. # [02:20] <othermaciej> sicking: for the "web based OS" use case (one which is not a use case I'm currently working on), I don't see why writing a named file to the pictures folder is insufficient
  337. # [02:20] <othermaciej> sicking: yeah, you just get events when stuff is ready
  338. # [02:20] <sicking> othermaciej: wouldn't that just mean that you'd want to add a .stop() function?
  339. # [02:20] <othermaciej> sicking: maybe you even get an array so stuff is batched as appropriate
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  341. # [02:20] * ap_ is now known as ap
  342. # [02:21] <othermaciej> sicking: I feel like you want cancel() for any DOMRequest
  343. # [02:21] <othermaciej> it seems like a fundamental feature of an asynchronous request that you can cancel it
  344. # [02:21] <sicking> othermaciej: mm... possibly.. though that can be really hard to implement usefully in the general case
  345. # [02:21] <sicking> othermaciej: for database operations it's basically impossible to do sanely
  346. # [02:22] <othermaciej> well, cancel() might just mean that you don't get the callback but it's too late to stop the side effect
  347. # [02:22] <othermaciej> it's clearly impossible for an async API to promise you the side effect will be prevented
  348. # [02:22] <othermaciej> but it can promise not to invoke the callback if it hasn't already
  349. # [02:22] <sicking> seems less racy then to promise to not remove the sideeffect
  350. # [02:22] <othermaciej> (or not to invoke it again)
  351. # [02:23] <sicking> which basically means that .cancel() == .removeEventListener()
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  353. # [02:23] <sicking> except in the case of cursors, sure
  354. # [02:23] <othermaciej> fair enough
  355. # [02:23] <sicking> othermaciej: anyway, this is a detail i think
  356. # [02:23] <othermaciej> yeah
  357. # [02:23] <zewt> i wouldn't want that in all cases, eg. cancelling XHR should make a best effort to actually stop the request
  358. # [02:23] <othermaciej> I have many thoughts on details but I like this direction much better than FileSystem API
  359. # [02:24] <sicking> othermaciej: interesting to hear that you like the general approach though. I'd like to send it to the webapps list specifically for the use case of sandboxed filesystem
  360. # [02:24] <othermaciej> canceling a file read should also attempt to stop reading further bytes from disk
  361. # [02:24] <sicking> othermaciej: but i haven't had time (and won't for another little while)
  362. # [02:24] <zewt> othermaciej: well, that's not strictly a side-effect, since it has no visible effects
  363. # [02:24] <zewt> where XHR often does
  364. # [02:24] <othermaciej> can't promise what other Apple folks would think, but I suspect we'd be more warm to this than FileSystem
  365. # [02:24] <sicking> othermaciej: oh, you should probably look at the FileHandle API too
  366. # [02:25] <othermaciej> is that different from FileReader / FileWriter?
  367. # [02:25] <sicking> othermaciej: unless you have seen it already, i sent a early draft to the webapps mailinglist
  368. # [02:25] <sicking> yes
  369. # [02:25] <sicking> it's in place of FileWriter
  370. # [02:25] <sicking> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2012JanMar/0886.html
  371. # [02:25] <othermaciej> ok
  372. # [02:26] <othermaciej> I'll have to look closer at both than and FileWriter
  373. # [02:26] <sicking> FileWriter has many bad problems IMHO. I enumerated most of them in that thread (not sure if it was in that email)
  374. # [02:27] <sicking> FileWriter suffers from being too close to FileReader, and I'm sad to admit to FileReader being poorly designed (my fault)
  375. # [02:28] <sicking> the problem is mostly syntactic in FileReader though. In FileWriter it doesn't provide enough primitives
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  378. # [02:40] <sicking> Here's a more polished proposal which handles shallow directory enumeration: https://wiki.mozilla.org/WebAPI/DeviceStorageAPI2
  379. # [02:40] <sicking> names are hard
  380. # [02:43] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  381. # [02:44] <othermaciej> sicking: I stand by my suggestion that nested directories are unnecessary given the use cases
  382. # [02:44] <sicking> othermaciej: not sure what you mean by that
  383. # [02:44] <othermaciej> sicking: (they might be necessary for the "web-based OS" use case, but I would prefer that to be kept separate from the "web" use case)
  384. # [02:45] <othermaciej> sicking: I don't see why you need to have any containers other than the top-level one
  385. # [02:45] <othermaciej> for the case of "I want to stage some resources and refer to them by URL"
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  387. # [02:45] <jamesr> what if you have a lot of resources?
  388. # [02:45] <othermaciej> therefore I do not understand why there is any form of directory enumeration in addition to enumeration of the top level
  389. # [02:46] <othermaciej> what if you do?
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  391. # [02:46] <othermaciej> apps on OS X and iOS have a flat "Resources" directory in their app bundle and it seems sufficient even for apps with lots of resources
  392. # [02:47] <jamesr> i see a lot of subdirs in the Resources directory of /Applications/Safari.app/Contents/Resources
  393. # [02:48] <othermaciej> the .lproj dirs are a localization scheme that's transparent to the app
  394. # [02:48] <jamesr> $ find /Applications/Safari.app/Contents/Resources/ -type d | wc -l 136
  395. # [02:48] <jamesr> no, there's more than .lproj dirs
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  397. # [02:48] <othermaciej> others are likely files that are bundles
  398. # [02:49] <othermaciej> so their directory-nature is also mostly-opaque
  399. # [02:49] <jamesr> i see a manifest thing and a help thing just at a glance
  400. # [02:49] <sicking> othermaciej: so you are saying you don't want directories at all?
  401. # [02:49] <sicking> othermaciej: or just 1 level deep directories?
  402. # [02:49] <othermaciej> sicking: I think the root directory is the only one you need
  403. # [02:50] <jamesr> even though it's not sufficient for Safari.app ?
  404. # [02:50] <jamesr> i assume web apps have to deal with l10n
  405. # [02:50] <othermaciej> jamesr: those are both bundles and thus logically files
  406. # [02:50] <othermaciej> the API safari uses to access its resources offers a flat namespace
  407. # [02:51] <sicking> othermaciej: that's a pretty controversial position if you accept the need for filesystems
  408. # [02:51] <othermaciej> the relevant frameworks transparently overlay the localizations
  409. # [02:51] <othermaciej> I doubt web apps want that specific l10n scheme
  410. # [02:51] <jamesr> hm, so are you suggesting that the web API would support a specific l10n scheme?
  411. # [02:51] <othermaciej> sicking: I'm convinced that you need to store named data blobs that you can refer to by persistent URLs
  412. # [02:52] <othermaciej> jamesr: if you do your own l10n, it's not clear to me why you would need directories to do it - there's no real fundamental reason for OS X to do it that way, just quirk of history
  413. # [02:52] <jamesr> you're saying "it's good enough for OS X apps, except for these other cases that are handled by the framework" - so do you want to build that functionality into the framework itself to keep things looking flat?
  414. # [02:52] <sicking> othermaciej: one of the use cases that we had was people writing HTML editors and putting resource links in those documents that pointed to images and resources stored in the filesystem
  415. # [02:52] <sicking> othermaciej: it's pretty common on the web to store images in an images/ folder. So i would imagine people would want to do that here too
  416. # [02:53] <othermaciej> sicking: it's pretty common on the web to store images on a different server with a different hostname
  417. # [02:53] <othermaciej> sicking: but I'm not sure what relevance either of those approaches has to storing the files locally
  418. # [02:55] <sicking> othermaciej: the use case was basically to download a set of resources and have them use the same directory structure locally as you do on the website, edit locally, then upload to server
  419. # [02:55] <othermaciej> sicking: that would argue for N-deep directories
  420. # [02:56] <sicking> othermaciej: indeed
  421. # [02:56] <othermaciej> sicking: and ability to have multiple separate top levels
  422. # [02:56] <sicking> othermaciej: also indeed. The proposal has named toplevels
  423. # [02:56] <sicking> DeviceStorage getSandboxedFilesystem(DOMString filesystemName);
  424. # [02:56] <othermaciej> which ends at an API that I think is more complex than I'm interested in implementing
  425. # [02:57] <sicking> othermaciej: the API doesn't actually get more complex because you have nested directories
  426. # [02:57] <sicking> see https://wiki.mozilla.org/WebAPI/DeviceStorageAPI2
  427. # [02:57] <sicking> the only thing that is added because of directories at all is 2 functions and an optional "directory" argument to two other functions
  428. # [02:58] <sicking> both are needed for 1-deep directories
  429. # [02:58] <othermaciej> you just showed me the simpler version that lacks that feature and the more complex version that has it
  430. # [02:58] <sicking> nothing extra is added for n-deep directories
  431. # [02:58] <othermaciej> (and which btw is bad OO design in the way it handles directories)
  432. # [02:58] <sicking> othermaciej: i'm really not sure that we need to build OO design around string concatenation
  433. # [02:59] <sicking> i actually think that's the main mistake in the google filesystem API
  434. # [02:59] <othermaciej> if string concatenation is sufficient, then why can't the client do it?
  435. # [02:59] <othermaciej> just allow a "/" character in filenames
  436. # [02:59] <sicking> othermaciej: most of the API does just that
  437. # [03:00] <sicking> othermaciej: the only additional thing was that people wanted to do shallow enumeration. That's the last two functions
  438. # [03:00] <othermaciej> I think having enumeration methods on DeviceStorage which take a token representing a directory is cheating
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  440. # [03:00] <othermaciej> it would be like folding the FileHandle interface into DeviceStorage
  441. # [03:00] <sicking> is cheating bad?
  442. # [03:00] <sicking> if cheating == simple then cheating == good ;-)
  443. # [03:00] <othermaciej> to quote myself from a few weeks ago, "the web platform has enough 'war' in it, let's not add more"
  444. # [03:01] <sicking> how do you mean?
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  447. # [03:01] <othermaciej> I mean using an opaque token with global methods to represent the named object is a more confusing design than an object with methods
  448. # [03:02] <othermaciej> to be fair, it is the Unix libc design, but at least it is done that way consistently
  449. # [03:03] <othermaciej> anyway, it would be better to have these discussions in a forum where more folks can participate
  450. # [03:03] <sicking> indeed
  451. # [03:03] <othermaciej> I like simple, I'm not yet convinced you need multiple top levels or that you need support for directories at anything more than a naming convention level (i.e. not clear why you need to enumerate)
  452. # [03:05] <sicking> othermaciej: if we don't need enumeration then i agree the API should be simplified. I think it'll be tough to sell a filesystem-like API without directories and enumeration though. Especially since IMO the main benefit of a filesystem API over indexedDB is that developers (not users) are used to dealing with directories
  453. # [03:05] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  454. # [03:05] <sicking> errr
  455. # [03:05] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  456. # [03:06] <sicking> are used to dealing with full filesystems as resource storage
  457. # [03:06] <othermaciej> sicking: that's kind of why I dislike thinking of it as a filesystem API - it leads people to expect complexity that does not seem fundamentally necessary for the relevant use cases
  458. # [03:06] <sicking> I'm definitely of the opinion that a filesystem is just a poor man's database
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  461. # [03:07] <othermaciej> and I'm of the opinion that poor men don't need a rich api
  462. # [03:07] <sicking> othermaciej: heh
  463. # [03:08] <othermaciej> I said that to be funny, but I'm also kind of serious
  464. # [03:08] <othermaciej> is the goal is a simplified / dumbed down version of something you can already sort of do, then it shouldn't have a lot of features
  465. # [03:09] <zewt> i think by far the most important part of a filesystem API is to close the disconnect between websites and the user's filesystem and native apps; sandbox-only filesystem APIs aren't very interesting
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  467. # [03:10] <sicking> othermaciej: indeed. But there's a range of complexity here. Finding the right points is the trick
  468. # [03:10] <othermaciej> zewt: that's a valid way of thinking, though such an API is a bad fit when there is no "the user's filesystem"
  469. # [03:11] <othermaciej> which is true on iOS and semi-true for sandboxed apps on OS X
  470. # [03:11] <zewt> othermaciej: when there's no user filesystem, apis connected to the concept just aren't activated
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  472. # [03:11] <zewt> nothing really unusual there, i think
  473. # [03:12] <othermaciej> that API can be as complex as it likes, but it would likely be one we don't implement
  474. # [03:12] <othermaciej> so I wouldn't have much input other than to avoid mandating it in specs we may want to implement
  475. # [03:13] <othermaciej> thus the potential appeal of something like DeviceStorage, as the sandboxed file store use case is one I could be sold on, with a sufficiently simple interface
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  492. # [03:43] <sicking> othermaciej: i agree with a lot of what you say. And I think the DeviceStorage API is very simple, even in the face of directories. We can argue whether directories are needed, but ultimately they are a pretty small part of the API, though of course non-trivial to implement
  493. # [03:44] <sicking> othermaciej: the only really hard part of the API is FileHandle. But I think you can make a pretty strong case for that filemanipulation is needed
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  496. # [03:45] <othermaciej> sicking: haven't looked at FileHandle yet, but if it supports more than "write the file atomically from this blob/string/array/whatever" and "write to the file as a non-seekable stream", I would want to hear the use cases for that
  497. # [03:46] <sicking> othermaciej: it's mostly that. But it's also "read this data from the file, then write that data from the file, while keeping the file open inbetween to ensure that noone else modifies the file inbetween"
  498. # [03:47] <othermaciej> sicking: transactions, eh?
  499. # [03:47] <sicking> errr. "read this data from the file, write that data to the file (where the written data is based on the read data)..."
  500. # [03:47] <othermaciej> it's not totally clear to me that atomic read-write-modify is needed
  501. # [03:47] <sicking> othermaciej: no, no rollback, just the ability to keep the file open
  502. # [03:48] <othermaciej> I don't know if I understand the use case
  503. # [03:48] <othermaciej> you said "to ensure that noone else modifies the file inbetween"
  504. # [03:48] <othermaciej> on native operating systems, the way to ensure that is write to a whole new file, then count on rename being atomic
  505. # [03:49] <sicking> or you open with exclusive access, no?
  506. # [03:49] <sicking> crap, gotta run
  507. # [03:49] <sicking> there's usecases in the thread i pointed you to
  508. # [03:49] <othermaciej> exclusive access is applicable only when creating
  509. # [03:49] <othermaciej> at least on unix
  510. # [03:49] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  511. # [03:49] <sicking> but yes, my argument is that atomic read-modify-write is needed
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  513. # [03:50] <sicking> as is fsync
  514. # [03:50] <zewt> othermaciej: atomic read/writes aren't done with rewriting and renaming, it's done with locks
  515. # [03:50] <othermaciej> there's no such thing as opening a file in a way that prevents other processes from opening it at the same time
  516. # [03:50] <othermaciej> well, native apps don't really have atomic read-modify-write
  517. # [03:50] <zewt> rather, ensuring other files don't write to it--you use rewrites and renames for transactional writes (when you want all-or-nothing writes)
  518. # [03:50] <othermaciej> zewt: rename is the only safe way to do it
  519. # [03:51] <zewt> it's far too expensive for general writes
  520. # [03:51] <othermaciej> the locking-based ways to do it either fail or require all sorts of trickery in what you put in the file
  521. # [03:52] <othermaciej> the only cases I know of that do "general writes" of that sort are databases
  522. # [03:52] <othermaciej> and attempting to implement a database on top of DeviceStorage would be insane
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  524. # [03:52] <zewt> locking works when you control all of the readers and writers, when you don't you have to depend on the OS (and whether that works depends on the OS, and the network FS if any)
  525. # [03:52] <othermaciej> random-access writing a file is simply not safe
  526. # [03:52] <othermaciej> I'm just saying, native apps don't need this, so why do web apps?
  527. # [03:52] <othermaciej> use case!
  528. # [03:53] <othermaciej> (or rather, native apps generally only do this via a database-like api, which is offered elsewhere in the platform)
  529. # [03:53] <zewt> don't follow--native apps need safe writes all the time (which is one big reason lots of people use sqlite)
  530. # [03:53] <othermaciej> (or they are just broken)
  531. # [03:53] <othermaciej> sure, and indexeddb and websql do that
  532. # [03:54] <othermaciej> but where do you need it in the "game downloads its resources" use case?
  533. # [03:54] <zewt> but ultimately, for general-purpose, unstructured files, even if you ignore the multiple-users issue, there's no way to get safe writes when system crashes enter the picture
  534. # [03:54] <othermaciej> or the "stage mail uploads" use case?
  535. # [03:54] <othermaciej> or the "download a site, edit it, and upload" use case?
  536. # [03:54] <zewt> since nobody is transactional for that
  537. # [03:55] <othermaciej> right, unless you have a transaction model you built yourself, it's unsafe to do random-access file writes
  538. # [03:55] <zewt> adding a file to a ZIP, etc
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  540. # [03:56] <zewt> updating big game data files with deltas/block hashes/whatever
  541. # [03:56] <zewt> afk, food
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  556. # [04:42] <MadPig> So... who's in charge of HTML 5 Audio?
  557. # [04:43] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@node-12c5.pool-125-24.dynamic.totbb.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  558. # [04:43] <Hixie> what is HTML 5 Audio?
  559. # [04:43] <MadPig> The audio part of HTML 5.
  560. # [04:43] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@12.130.118.20) (Quit: othermaciej)
  561. # [04:44] <Hixie> ok let me rephrase, what do you mean by "HTML 5" and what do you mean by "the audio part"?
  562. # [04:44] <Hixie> (not trying to be difficult, there are at least three things that you might mean by "HTML5" and several things that might be "audio")
  563. # [04:44] <MadPig> Sigh...
  564. # [04:44] <MadPig> I don't know what I mean. I assumed that there was only one standard of HTML 5.
  565. # [04:45] <Hixie> "HTML 5" isn't a standard
  566. # [04:45] <MadPig> And that it's pretty stable by now.
  567. # [04:45] <MadPig> "Draft" which isn't really a "draft", or whatever.
  568. # [04:45] <Hixie> there's the "HTML" standard which has an <audio> element, the guy "in charge" of that would be me
  569. # [04:46] <MadPig> Why did you not include panning in the specs? :-|
  570. # [04:46] <Hixie> there's the "HTML5" draft at the W3C which has their version of <audio>, not sure who would be "in charge" of that, probably the HTMLWG as a whole
  571. # [04:46] <zewt> (i suspect whatever it is he's talking about is not actually <audio>...)
  572. # [04:46] <MadPig> Hmm... that is very confusing.
  573. # [04:46] <Hixie> and there's the "Web Audio API" which people say is "part of HTML5", which does effects
  574. # [04:46] <MadPig> zewt: It is.
  575. # [04:46] <Hixie> and which has panning, i believe
  576. # [04:46] <MadPig> Hmm...
  577. # [04:47] <Hixie> not sure who is in charge of that exactly
  578. # [04:47] <MadPig> There is a lot of "Legend has it that..." kind of things related to "HTML 5".
  579. # [04:47] <MadPig> Nobody is sure. It's unclear what is official.
  580. # [04:47] <MadPig> Etc.
  581. # [04:47] <Hixie> anyway, as for <audio>, it doesn't have panning because it's just an audio file playback api
  582. # [04:47] <MadPig> Well, it should not be IMO.
  583. # [04:48] <MadPig> It should allow for panning since it's crucial for games.
  584. # [04:48] <Hixie> for games, you want the Web Audio API, not <audio>
  585. # [04:48] <Hixie> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/audio/raw-file/tip/webaudio/specification.html
  586. # [04:49] <MadPig> (Any action game will require many "voices" to be played at the same time (even of the same sample), and fully supported panning.)
  587. # [04:49] <MadPig> Well...
  588. # [04:49] <Hixie> yeah, that's what Web Audio is for
  589. # [04:49] <MadPig> So it's part of HTML 5?
  590. # [04:49] <MadPig> Why two different things?
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  611. # [05:59] <Hixie> d'oh, he left
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  613. # [06:08] <othermaciej> maybe he meant the <audio> element and related interfaces?
  614. # [06:08] <Hixie> he did, we had a whole conversation
  615. # [06:09] <Hixie> but i had a Computer Issue and he left while i was trying to deal with it
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  697. # [10:05] <jgraham> darobin: Wait, what? Your Process involves deleting branches on github? That doesn't seem ideal
  698. # [10:05] * darobin looks at jgraham, looks at coffee, wonders wah?
  699. # [10:05] <jgraham> Well, more nessy's process
  700. # [10:05] <jgraham> "The following branches have been merged (and are now gone from github
  701. # [10:05] <jgraham> to allow for the next round):"
  702. # [10:06] <jgraham> It is the parenthetical I am wondering about
  703. # [10:06] <darobin> deleting feature branches after they have been merged is not uncommon
  704. # [10:06] <jgraham> Really?
  705. # [10:06] <darobin> yeah
  706. # [10:06] <jgraham> It seems pretty silly to me
  707. # [10:07] <darobin> in fact git-flow does it by default
  708. # [10:07] <darobin> why? the full history is kept
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  710. # [10:07] <jgraham> Because it seems confusing if someone else has a local branch that tracks that remote
  711. # [10:08] <darobin> you mean with local changes?
  712. # [10:08] <jgraham> (indeed, if you "merge" using rebase, the commits on that branch will eventually be lost)
  713. # [10:08] <darobin> ah, gotcha
  714. # [10:09] <darobin> yes, the problem isn't so much deleting branches — it's sharing feature branches in the first place
  715. # [10:09] <jgraham> That seems like a highly necessary part of any multi-person workflow
  716. # [10:10] <darobin> no, you don't collaborate on a feature branch
  717. # [10:10] <jgraham> …
  718. # [10:10] <darobin> the multi-person workflow is about the branches you merge to
  719. # [10:10] <darobin> there should be a health warning in there "These are feature branches being shared so that you can see where we're at. Be warned that they may be deleted without warning."
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  721. # [10:10] <jgraham> There is clearly some part of the workflow that we do differently here :)
  722. # [10:11] <darobin> heh
  723. # [10:11] <jgraham> But if there is a team of 5 people all working on feature A, there has to be a branch where they can all push changes to feature A
  724. # [10:11] <darobin> when you use git-flow (which admittedly we don't) and in many uses of git in general, feature branches are branches you keep locally for a change you're working on but haven't finished
  725. # [10:12] <darobin> not every feature is a feature branch :)
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  727. # [10:12] <darobin> but either way, you should take that up with silvia — at least she's had her coffee :)
  728. # [10:13] <jgraham> So in git-flow parlance "feature branch" is another name for a local branch that doesn't track a remote?
  729. # [10:13] <jgraham> Or does it track a remote?
  730. # [10:15] <darobin> I think that the second you have a branch that can be tracking a remote, you're sort of making the promise that you won't delete it
  731. # [10:15] <darobin> I don't believe I've ever pushed a feature branch on purpose
  732. # [10:15] <darobin> (the feature/whatwg branch would be a special case here of course)
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  735. # [10:16] <jgraham> You mean tracked as a remote?
  736. # [10:16] <darobin> the branches that silvia is using are all about merging in stuff
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  739. # [10:16] <darobin> I'm not sure which of my lines your "you mean" refers to :)
  740. # [10:17] <darobin> but then again, as I've mentioned: coffee
  741. # [10:17] <jgraham> Heh
  742. # [10:17] <jgraham> Don't let me get in your way :)
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  746. # [10:19] <zcorpan> annevk: how is --pubdate="$(PUBDATE)" intended to be used in MakeFile?
  747. # [10:20] <annevk> try make PUBDATE="15 Sep 2012" or some such
  748. # [10:20] <annevk> I wonder if html5-diff is still necessary though
  749. # [10:21] <annevk> everyone should be up to speed by now
  750. # [10:21] <zcorpan> sonuds like you're out of touch with the real world :-P
  751. # [10:21] <zcorpan> browse sitepoint forums some day
  752. # [10:23] <annevk> I like my world
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  767. # [10:48] <Tuju> I've a problem with xml schema, anyone able to help me? I'm trying to define a type with integer range limitation + an attribute
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  769. # [10:48] <Tuju> % xmllint --noout --schema formats/config/apache/httpd/2.2/config.xsd tests/configs/domains/modweb.org.conf.xml
  770. # [10:48] <Tuju> formats/config/apache/httpd/2.2/config.xsd:226: element simpleType: Schemas parser error : Element '{http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema}complexContent': The content is not valid. Expected is (annotation?, (restriction | extension)).
  771. # [10:50] <jgraham> Tuju: Pretty sure if you are trying to use XML schema you are beyond help :)
  772. # [10:50] <jgraham> But whatever help you can get is more likely to come from some XML-specific channel
  773. # [10:50] <jgraham> Not here
  774. # [10:50] <Tuju> jgraham: there is nothing wrong with xml imo.
  775. # [10:50] <Tuju> it only has a bad reputation.
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  781. # [11:02] <darobin> Tuju: regardless of XML's merits or lack thereof, I think you're very unlikely to find the appropriate help for your issue here — it's not exactly the community for XML Schema
  782. # [11:02] <Tuju> i came here because earlier this was the only place anyone was able to comment my xml stuff
  783. # [11:03] <Tuju> but my intention is not to spam around, if it's out of scope, i'm happy to take my issue elsewhere. :)
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  786. # [11:04] <darobin> Tuju: libxml2's support for XML Schema is incomplete at best, and unlikely to ever get fixed AFAIK
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  788. # [11:04] <darobin> so if you really wish to use XML Schema, you should use another validator
  789. # [11:04] <Tuju> ah, that i didn't know.
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  791. # [11:05] <darobin> the error you're getting is libxml2 complaining that the schema you're feeding to it is not a valid schema
  792. # [11:05] <Tuju> my skills are so limited that i would have bet that it's my mistake.
  793. # [11:06] <Tuju> that file where those exist is already quite long and has worked so far.
  794. # [11:06] <darobin> well, if you think it's a valid schema, given that it comes from Apache you should probably try it out with Xerces or whatever it is they use nowadays
  795. # [11:06] <Tuju> but with limited set of features used.
  796. # [11:06] <darobin> Tuju: frankly, XML is fine for a lot of stuff, but XML Schema is a rather dreadful piece of technology
  797. # [11:06] <Tuju> darobin: what comes from apache?
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  799. # [11:07] <darobin> so I would recommend staying away from it as much as you can, *especially* if you're not an XML expert
  800. # [11:07] <Tuju> i wouldn't mind to become one :)
  801. # [11:07] <Tuju> it could be useful...
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  803. # [11:07] <darobin> the config.xsd seems to come from Apache (based on the path)
  804. # [11:07] <Tuju> nope, i wrote that one.
  805. # [11:08] <Tuju> but yes, that content eventually came from there.
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  807. # [11:08] <darobin> ah, ok, then it's possible you've made a mistake — writing XSD by hand is highly error-prone, and writing XSD with a tool is buggy at best
  808. # [11:09] <Tuju> i made plenty of bugs into that but gradually got them ironed out
  809. # [11:09] <darobin> if you do want to become an XML expert, learn all that you can do with XML without XML Schema, and only then look at XML Schema
  810. # [11:09] <Tuju> but it's still far from complete.
  811. # [11:09] <darobin> otherwise it'll warp any understanding you may have of the tech
  812. # [11:09] <Tuju> could be true. i just see that schemas are integral part of it.
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  814. # [11:10] <darobin> if you think XML Schema is an integral part of XML, you will become a Java expert but never an XML expert :)
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  820. # [11:12] <Tuju> uuuh, i would rather cut my wrists...
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  824. # [11:12] <Tuju> looked at that xerces thingy, is there a cli tool for it? my fedora pkg search didn't find one.
  825. # [11:12] <Tuju> thou libs are included
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  837. # [11:16] <zcorpan> can anyone tell me what materially changed in http://html5.org/r/7244 ?
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  840. # [11:17] <zcorpan> the content model?
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  848. # [11:17] <zcorpan> seems so
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  855. # [11:41] <Stevef_> darobin: think i inadvertently overworte your change to https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18245
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  857. # [11:42] <Stevef_> darobin: were you assigning or unassigning yourself to the bug?
  858. # [11:42] <darobin> and you will pay dearly for that Stevef_!
  859. # [11:43] <darobin> I was assigning it to me, but it's no biggie
  860. # [11:43] <Tuju> darobin: i got it working
  861. # [11:43] <Tuju> with xmllint
  862. # [11:43] <darobin> if you update it, since you agree that it's a .next thing, can you assign it to the html.next product please?
  863. # [11:43] <Tuju> ho, i'm good.
  864. # [11:43] * Tuju hugs himself.
  865. # [11:43] * Tuju taps his own back.
  866. # [11:43] * darobin gives Tuju a RelaxNG cookie
  867. # [11:44] * Tuju whees!
  868. # [11:44] <Stevef_> darobin: i have already paid so dearly for my past transgressions that i have nothing left to give, yes will reassign
  869. # [11:44] <darobin> Stevef_: I'm certainly interested in looking more deeply into this, I was under the impression that this could be done with existing tech without needing support from the browser
  870. # [11:44] <darobin> but if I'm wrong it's certainly something we can do something about
  871. # [11:44] <jgraham> Stevef_: Sounds like a speech you should save for your last words :)
  872. # [11:45] <darobin> "Yes Will Reassign" sounds like a great epitaph
  873. # [11:45] <darobin> (or not)
  874. # [11:45] <Stevef_> darobin: it can be done with ARIA, but at least some people would prefer it be done via a HTML feature
  875. # [11:46] <darobin> Stevef_: right, that's what I thought, and IIRC many of the "big" implementations of tabs do it with ARIA
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  877. # [11:46] <darobin> I'm happy to chat about the tradeoffs — but just in the .next timeframe :)
  878. # [11:46] <Stevef_> jgraham: one never knows when one's last words may be uttered...
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  880. # [11:47] <darobin> at which point annevk ominously drops off
  881. # [11:47] <darobin> I told him this URL thing wasn't any good for him
  882. # [11:48] <Stevef_> darobin: its not a priority at the moment, I commented as I wanted to respond to the pure CSS view as I said in bug, its an old issue that has been postponed for now
  883. # [11:48] <darobin> Stevef_: cool, ta
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  885. # [11:50] <darobin> Stevef_: I'm on the bug right now — I'll reassign and move to .next
  886. # [11:50] <Stevef_> i have already moved
  887. # [11:50] <darobin> really? it was telling me not...
  888. # [11:50] <darobin> well — it seems to be in a consistent state now anyway :)
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  954. # [12:28] <zcorpan> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/html4-differences/Overview.src.html.diff?r1=1.192;r2=1.193
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  990. # [14:16] <AryehGregor> Wait, is DOM4 still authoritative these days, or should I be editing something else if I want to make changes?
  991. # [14:17] * AryehGregor looks for annevk or Ms2ger
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  1002. # [14:38] <annevk42> AryehGregor: use https://github.com/whatwg/dom
  1003. # [14:38] <annevk42> AryehGregor: once you push the webpage will get updated automatically
  1004. # [14:38] <annevk42> AryehGregor: webpage being http://dom.spec.whatwg.org
  1005. # [14:38] <AryehGregor> annevk42, okay. Is that what implementers are using, or is this an independent fork that will cause havoc and confusion?
  1006. # [14:39] <annevk42> we'll see
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  1008. # [14:42] <annevk42> AryehGregor: they're implementing based on it, e.g. createHTMLDocument()'s now optional argument
  1009. # [14:43] <annevk42> AryehGregor: afaict implementors implement whatever is maintained
  1010. # [14:43] <AryehGregor> So in other words, it's an independent fork that will cause havoc and confusion, but hopefully it will win?
  1011. # [14:43] <annevk42> I don't know, I know I can't join the W3C so I can't edit their specs
  1012. # [14:44] <AryehGregor> You don't want to join as an Invited Expert because that means giving over your copyright or something?
  1013. # [14:44] <annevk42> right
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  1015. # [14:49] <AryehGregor> Could you use a CG instead?
  1016. # [14:50] <annevk42> might publish them through the WHATCG
  1017. # [14:50] <annevk42> but that doesn't really seem needed for now
  1018. # [14:50] <annevk42> only for FSA-style stuff
  1019. # [14:51] <annevk42> which I'll let Hixie pioneer
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  1024. # [15:02] * Ms3ger summons jsbell
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  1026. # [15:03] <Ms3ger> (Only intermittently around until Monday or so, fwiw)
  1027. # [15:07] <odinho> What's with all them numbers, annevk42 and now Ms3ger
  1028. # [15:08] <darobin> yeah it's stupid, it's should clearly be annevkLS and MsLSget
  1029. # [15:08] <darobin> *MsLSger
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  1047. # [15:28] <zcorpan> was there a bug filed about listing all events in the html spec?
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  1099. # [16:30] <zcorpan> anyone feel like reviewing html5-diff before i say that i'm done (in a few minutes)? :-)
  1100. # [16:30] <zcorpan> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/html4-differences/Overview.src.html
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  1107. # [16:41] <zcorpan> (if you find issues, please file bugs, i'll fix it for the next publication)
  1108. # [16:42] <[tm]> zcorpan: I will definitely take a look
  1109. # [16:43] <[tm]> but I can't until tomorrow or so
  1110. # [16:43] <zcorpan> [tm]: thanks!
  1111. # [16:43] <[tm]> right now I am watching anne give a presentation
  1112. # [16:43] <zcorpan> right now i'll call it a day
  1113. # [16:43] <zcorpan> see you guys on monday :-)
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  1115. # [16:44] <[tm]> chheers
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  1136. # [17:39] <jarek> Hi
  1137. # [17:39] <jarek> I have just found this spec: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/web-anim/index.html
  1138. # [17:40] <jarek> does it mean that SMIL is definitely dead now?
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  1172. # [18:06] <cabanier> hixie: I notice that not all images in the Canvas2D spec are checked in with SVN.
  1173. # [18:07] <cabanier> hixie: could you add them so we can bring them into the W3 spec?
  1174. # [18:07] <cabanier> hixie: also, do you have the original artwork?
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  1176. # [18:08] <Hixie> zcorpan: the ruby change was quite substantial; the spec went from basically having a trivial ruby feature to one that covers most of the use cases, by changing the content model and processing/rendering model. parsing didn't change.
  1177. # [18:10] <Hixie> cabanier: they should be, but yeah, i can look into it. Can you send me an e-mail?
  1178. # [18:10] <Hixie> cabanier: what do you mean by "original artwork"?
  1179. # [18:11] <Hixie> actually don't worry about e-mail
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  1181. # [18:12] <Hixie> added them
  1182. # [18:13] <Hixie> bbiab
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  1191. # [18:23] <Ms3ger> jsbell!
  1192. # [18:24] <jsbell> eeeek!
  1193. # [18:24] <jsbell> Wait... *3* ?
  1194. # [18:24] <Ms3ger> You complained about an IDB test while I was offline?
  1195. # [18:24] <jsbell> Yeah, sec...
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  1198. # [18:27] <jsbell> Ms3ger: http://w3c-test.org/webapps/IndexedDB/tests/submissions/Ms2ger/idbfactory_open9.htm has a test that IDBFactory.open() throws when version is >= 2^53. I agree with the sentiment, but it's neither in the spec nor did I see a spec bug.
  1199. # [18:27] <Ms3ger> Did you look at WebIDL?
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  1201. # [18:28] <jsbell> *sigh*
  1202. # [18:28] <odinho> Hmm... *testing*
  1203. # [18:28] <odinho> yay green.
  1204. # [18:28] <jsbell> Ah yes, there it is.
  1205. # [18:29] <jsbell> *shakes fist at binding code*
  1206. # [18:29] <Ms3ger> Good :)
  1207. # [18:29] <Ms3ger> Not sure why you were looking anywhere else ;)
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  1209. # [18:29] <Ms3ger> Need to go now, though
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  1211. # [18:29] <odinho> okay, it's depressing staying longer at work now, so I'll go.
  1212. # [18:29] <odinho> Hmm. at the same time even.
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  1298. # [22:06] <jgraham> smaug____: Isn't performance.memory the set of mostly-frightening requests that Zynga made
  1299. # [22:06] <jgraham> ?
  1300. # [22:07] <jgraham> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2012Sep/0016.html
  1301. # [22:07] <jgraham> Or that doesn't actually mention performance.memory anywhere so maybe not
  1302. # [22:07] <jgraham> What's the context for your question?
  1303. # [22:08] <smaug____> jgraham: ringmark test
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  1309. # [22:26] <jgraham> smaug____: Oh who knows then
  1310. # [22:27] <jgraham> That is a walking disaster area
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  1315. # [22:31] <jgraham> smaug____: But I don't see it there either
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  1342. # [23:49] <sicking> Hixie: why can't I find any callers of "jump to a code entry-point"? I'm trying to figure out how "entry script" is actually intended to work
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  1346. # [23:52] <sicking> oh, it's just called "jump" in the text
  1347. # [23:52] <Hixie> sicking: one sec
  1348. # [23:52] <sicking> Hixie: nm
  1349. # [23:52] <Hixie> sicking: clicking on the bold <dfn> text will get you a backref list btw
  1350. # [23:53] <Hixie> sicking: (only works usefully on the single-page copy of hte spec)
  1351. # [23:53] <sicking> Hixie: only if i want to wait ages for the page to load
  1352. # [23:53] <sicking> Hixie: i always read the spec with ?slow-browser
  1353. # [23:53] <Hixie> firefox is pretty fast these days on the spec isn't it?
  1354. # [23:53] <sicking> Hixie: no, it's just pretty fast these days ;-)
  1355. # [23:54] <Hixie> well it's been fast for longer than it's been fast specifically on the spec, which is why i put it that way :-)
  1356. # [23:55] <sicking> Hixie: still takes 20 some seconds for me to get it fully responsive
  1357. # [23:55] <sicking> measured between my thumb and index finger
  1358. # [23:55] <Hixie> it does seem to hang the browser more than it does in chrome, weird
  1359. # [23:56] <Hixie> i recommend just leaving it open in the background
  1360. # [23:56] <Hixie> that's what i do :-)
  1361. # [23:56] <Hixie> (once the page is loaded, firefox seems to be way better on it than chrome)
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  1363. # [23:57] <Hixie> (though resizing the browser window isn't so hot)
  1364. # [23:57] <Hixie> (yikes)
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  1366. # [23:58] <sicking> Hixie: i have too much ADD to leave too many tabs open :)
  1367. # [23:59] <Hixie> heh
  1368. # [23:59] <sicking> Hixie: not saying that we couldn't do better with the spec from the gecko side. But this is why i have the ?slow-browser version bookmarked
  1369. # [23:59] <Hixie> fair enough :-)
  1370. # [23:59] <sicking> but i did remove it in order to find the back-refs here
  1371. # Session Close: Sat Sep 15 00:00:01 2012

The end :)