/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-10-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 02 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  32. # [00:50] <Hixie> anyone have an opinion on <input type=text trim=""> ? (trims leading and trailing space characters in the control's /value/)
  33. # [00:51] <Hixie> if so, put them in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17972
  34. # [00:51] <Hixie> i'm likely to add it soonish
  35. # [00:52] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
  36. # [00:54] <Hixie> anyone got IE handy? I need http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1811's output
  37. # [00:54] <Hixie> and i'm too lazy to get out my laptop with the VMs...
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  178. # [06:39] <MikeSmith> oops
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  196. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> cool http://caniuse.com/feed.php?id=136
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  229. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> IANA directly sent me some questions and comments about the application/microdata+json
  230. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> if I forward it to you on list somewhere, can you reply?
  231. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ↑
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  233. # [09:43] <annevk> whoa, three people are now going to edit XMLHttpRequest
  234. # [09:43] <annevk> I wonder how that goes
  235. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> annevk: XHR1 or real XHR?
  236. # [09:44] <annevk> No idea actually, presumably real XMLHttpRequest?
  237. # [09:45] <annevk> I'm somewhat skeptical about the appointed editors, but we'll see
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  239. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> annevk: speaking of editors I don't remember Hallvord doing much with the clipboard spec any time lately
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  241. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> wonder if he's planning to keep maintaining it or not
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  255. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> System Applications WG charter just now finally approved
  256. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> congrats to abarth
  257. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> let the good times roll
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  261. # [10:46] <SimonSapin> MikeSmith: is this WG meant to standardize what boot2gecko has been doing, or something like it?
  262. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: http://www.w3.org/2012/09/sysapps-wg-charter
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  264. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2012/09/sysapps-wg-charter#rec-track
  265. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> and http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/
  266. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/#roadmap
  267. # [10:50] <hsivonen> I get the discussion on the security model will be “fun”
  268. # [10:50] <hsivonen> s/get/bet/
  269. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> yup
  270. # [10:50] <SimonSapin> fun in what sense?
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  272. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: in the "not fun" sense
  273. # [10:51] <SimonSapin> like hard to get right?
  274. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> yah
  275. # [10:51] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: like a long list of prior art and people with differing opinions
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  277. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> abarth gots a draft already at http://abarth.github.com/sysapps/drafts/security.html
  278. # [10:52] <hsivonen> Mozilla has become better at proposal naming. Tizen tries with e.g. “Bluetooth”, but Mozilla has “Web Bluetooth”
  279. # [10:52] <hsivonen> worked with Audio for Chrome
  280. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> http://abarth.github.com/sysapps/drafts/runtime.html#differences-from-the-web-platform is also worth reading
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  287. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw dunno if you noticed that the W3C HTML5 spec now allows absolute URLs in rel values
  288. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> in addition to the standard keywords and registered keywords
  289. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> so I wrote a patch the supports that
  290. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> for the validator
  291. # [11:08] <MikeSmith> should we make that support W3C-only?
  292. # [11:08] <MikeSmith> dunno how you feel about whether it's a good idea or not to allow URLs there
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  297. # [11:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: oh it wasn’t allowed before? I’ve lost track.
  298. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: wasn't allowed before
  299. # [11:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: does the W3C allow upper-case ASCII in those URLs?
  300. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> Hixie wontfixed it I think. lemme find the bug
  301. # [11:20] <hsivonen> didn’t I even write a CP for this at some point?
  302. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think the HTML5 spec says they're treated case-insenstively
  303. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: oh, don't remember if you did
  304. # [11:20] * MikeSmith looks for the issue
  305. # [11:20] <zcorpan> i thought it was allowed before but then hixie removed the url support (maybe only in the whatwg version)
  306. # [11:20] <zcorpan> but i might be making that up
  307. # [11:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Oct/0058.html
  308. # [11:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I’m ok with what I wrote in that email
  309. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> OK
  310. # [11:22] * MikeSmith reads
  311. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK, that's the way I got it implemented anyway, I think. Because I'm just using the common.data.uri.absolute / w:iri datatype
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  313. # [11:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok
  314. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> that is, already ignoring the ASCII-only restriction in the HTML5 spec
  315. # [11:25] <hsivonen> it’s kinda sad, though, that some people want to be able to put URLs there
  316. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I'm not sure any real people actually want to
  317. # [11:26] <danbri> like http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-rdfa-in-html-20120911/ ?
  318. # [11:26] <danbri> FWIW schema.org prefers the RDFa Lite idiom, where @property carries the property and relationship names (to avoid forcing publishers to guess whether @property or @rel is the place to use)
  319. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> danbri: that's an extension of the spec that already defines looser requirements on rel values
  320. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> danbri: ah good
  321. # [11:27] <danbri> I like how extensions can legalise things
  322. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: patch (small) https://gist.github.com/3817679
  323. # [11:27] <danbri> wish real laws worked that way ;)
  324. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> heh
  325. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> that would be cool
  326. # [11:28] <danbri> in http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/REC-rdfa-core-20120607/ I see only prefixed terms and simple terms, not full links
  327. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you'll see the one other thing is I changed the wording on the error message that gets emitted if the rel value is not an absolute URL or valid keyword
  328. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> if you don't like that wording lemme know
  329. # [11:29] * danbri assumes mikesmith and ivanherman coordinate constantly on such stuff
  330. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> well
  331. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> not so constantly
  332. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> but now and then yeah
  333. # [11:30] <danbri> :)
  334. # [11:30] <danbri> I'm very interested to learn of non-schema.org uses of Microdata btw
  335. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> the RDFa WGers as much seem to think URLs are ugly and so we should come up with all kinds of ways to protect users from seeing them
  336. # [11:30] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  337. # [11:30] <danbri> I just tell RDF people to buy a ****ing short domain name, these days
  338. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> heh
  339. # [11:31] <danbri> there's a lot of different between http://ogp.me/foo and http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#foo
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  341. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> I will be surprised if any large number of normal users ever start using RDFa or Microdata for any reason other than to get the search-engine juice or some other real benefits instead of hypothetical ones
  342. # [11:32] * Parts: victor2 (~Adium@AMontsouris-652-1-138-217.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  343. # [11:33] <danbri> is someone suggesting otherwise?
  344. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> I don't think the syntax or whatever existing tool support is going to make much of a difference to normal authors either way
  345. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> danbri: no, I guess not, true
  346. # [11:33] <danbri> having helpful checkers and authoring tools ought to be able to improve data quality
  347. # [11:34] <danbri> having more than one high profile consumer would really help too
  348. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> yup
  349. # [11:34] <danbri> currently too many people (re schema.org) just go with whatever looks good in Google Rich Snippets
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  351. # [11:37] <a-ja> fwiw: coding polyglot uF/uF2/microdata is royal pita
  352. # [11:37] <danbri> can you summarise the woes? what is baseline painfulness of polyglot?
  353. # [11:37] <danbri> or do you mean mixing those systems, not mixing xhtml/html Polyglot?
  354. # [11:37] <Ms2ger> Heh, polyglot
  355. # [11:38] <Ms2ger> People actually do that?
  356. # [11:39] <a-ja> tried and abandoned as ridiculously non-semantic
  357. # [11:39] <a-ja> div/span-itis
  358. # [11:40] <a-ja> actually, abandoning uF would make it not so bad....cept noone parses for it yet
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  396. # [13:23] <sps> hi!
  397. # [13:23] <sps> is here hsivonen?
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  400. # [13:24] <sps> someone can help me?
  401. # [13:27] <payman> sps: You can try asking your question and finding out :)
  402. # [13:28] <sps> I want to know what is the relationship between pixel/point and real dimension on screen
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  404. # [13:31] <sps> If I want to display a text with a height of 2cm on a screen with 128x1024 with 83.6ppi how many pixel I need to set on a text software for Win7 OS?
  405. # [13:31] <sps> and the same height on a screen of 800x600?
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  407. # [13:35] <payman> sps: "height: 2cm"? http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-values/#absolute-lengths
  408. # [13:36] <payman> (or what do you mean by text software?)
  409. # [13:36] <sps> yes 2cm
  410. # [13:37] <sps> sorry I mean a software like Word, LibreOffice, ecc...
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  413. # [13:38] <sps> or any other software that displays text on the screen
  414. # [13:39] <payman> well, what I mentioned should work in a web browser.
  415. # [13:39] <sps> ok
  416. # [13:40] <sps> and for others?
  417. # [13:41] <payman> I don't know.
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  419. # [13:42] <jgraham> Hmm, CSS 2cm won't always be 2cm
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  421. # [13:42] <jgraham> It will be a specific number of CSS pixels
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  424. # [13:46] <zcorpan> but it should be about 2cm if you pinch your fingers at an arm's length with the intended viewing distance :-)
  425. # [13:47] <sps> that is?
  426. # [13:48] <payman> jgraham: can't it be more precise if you use it with media queries?
  427. # [13:49] <annevk> media queries uses the same crappy units
  428. # [13:49] <sps> and so?
  429. # [13:54] <jgraham> It isn't possible on the Web Platform to specify precise physical dimensions
  430. # [13:54] <jgraham> This should be clear if you consider a laptop displaying a 2cm square
  431. # [13:54] <payman> how about print media?
  432. # [13:55] <jgraham> If you connect that to a projector, you wouldn't expect it to remain at 2cm
  433. # [13:55] <zcorpan> payman: depends on the intended viewing distance to the printed material :-)
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  435. # [13:55] <jgraham> That would be totally useless, not to mention impossible to actually pull off
  436. # [13:55] <hsivonen> sps: jgraham is right. There is no way to specify true physical dimensions on the Web Platform
  437. # [13:55] <payman> so it depends on the reference pixel?
  438. # [13:56] <jgraham> Because with a projector you don't know the physical size of the image in advance
  439. # [13:56] <hsivonen> payman: yes. CSS cm, etc., are all fixed multiples of CSS px
  440. # [13:56] <jgraham> payman, sps: All CSS units are per-spec effectively angular units
  441. # [13:57] <zcorpan> a css pixel is an angle from the user to the intended viewing distance, where the resolution is 96 CSS pixels per physical inch at an arm's length, or some such (iirc)
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  443. # [13:57] <zcorpan> and all other css units get translated to css pixels
  444. # [13:57] <hsivonen> (Even Prince cannot guarantee how exactly your PDF gets printed)
  445. # [13:58] <jgraham> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-values/pixel1.png
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  447. # [13:58] <payman> mmm, web platform is pretty useless.
  448. # [13:59] <payman> (for this use case at least)
  449. # [13:59] <jgraham> "The reference pixel is the visual angle of one pixel on a device with a pixel density of 96dpi and a distance from the reader of an arm's length. For a nominal arm's length of 28 inches, the visual angle is therefore about 0.0213 degrees. For reading at arm's length, 1px thus corresponds to about 0.26 mm (1/96 inch)."
  450. # [13:59] <jgraham> payman: It's hard to imagine how it could be any other way
  451. # [14:00] <jgraham> px could be a physical unit
  452. # [14:00] <jgraham> But then people would complain about it being too thin on high resolution devices
  453. # [14:00] <annevk> what does 2ch mean for a font without 0
  454. # [14:00] <annevk> seems like something that ought to be defined
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  456. # [14:02] <payman> jgraham: yeah, but wouldn't it be nice to have a css unit that translates ubiquitously to standard metric unit?
  457. # [14:02] <jgraham> payman: It would only make sense for printed media
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  460. # [14:02] <jgraham> Given how good browsers aren't at printing, this doesn't seem like the most pressing problem
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  463. # [14:04] <payman> so I guess sps might have better luck softwares other than web browsers.
  464. # [14:04] <payman> +using
  465. # [14:04] <jgraham> Yes, if you want precise, media-specific, layout, the web stack isn't welloptimised for your use case
  466. # [14:06] <jgraham> (the rule is something like "'precise', 'media independent', choose one)
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  473. # [14:19] <sps> mmm
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  476. # [14:27] <sps> ok, you said: in css we have absolute units but really visualization depends on distance from screen
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  478. # [14:28] <sps> but I want relation real/virtual for screen display not for browser, but for usul software on OS
  479. # [14:29] <sps> sorry, for usual software
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  481. # [14:31] <sps> for example: how many points I have to set text on MS Word to have a text with a real height of 2cm on my screen?
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  491. # [14:56] <sps> I read this: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/units/
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  495. # [14:57] <zcorpan> sps: that seems outdated
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  497. # [14:57] <sps> I know that in typography a 1inch text height is equivalent to 72 points. But if I try to visualize a 72pt text on MS Word I see an uppercase text with an height of 1.8cm with a zoom of 90% (real ppi=89.3/96, on Windows following your suggestion), and 2cm with a zoom of 100%. When I try to print it I get a text with an height of 1.8cm, the same I see in my screen. In MS Word, with a 90% zoom, I see a dimension of page quite real.
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  502. # [15:06] <sps> no-one can help me?
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  505. # [15:07] <SimonSapin> sps: is this a question on MS Word or on CSS?
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  508. # [15:09] <hsivonen> I marked http://hsivonen.iki.fi/units/ as outdated. Sorry about failing to do so earlier.
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  510. # [15:13] <matjas> zcorpan: just came across http://simon.html5.org/test/html/rendering/color-attributes/parseColorString.js after writing out the algo in JS myself
  511. # [15:13] <matjas> zcorpan: the “replace non-BMP symbols with `00`” step is missing
  512. # [15:13] <zcorpan> matjas: that's likely outdated
  513. # [15:14] <matjas> zcorpan: I used something like this for that part http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=LFGaGKhp
  514. # [15:14] <zcorpan> matjas: the dom uses 16-bit code units so code points above BMP get turned into '00' anyway
  515. # [15:15] <matjas> zcorpan: I see, I was writing something that needed to work in Node, though
  516. # [15:15] <hsivonen> sps: When you set the font size to 72 pt, you are not setting the capital letter height to 1 inch
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  518. # [15:16] <hsivonen> sps: you are just mapping the internal coordinate space of the font
  519. # [15:16] <hsivonen> sps: the capital letters are not required to be 1 em high
  520. # [15:18] <hsivonen> and the em in fonts is just a font-dependent multiple of internal units
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  523. # [15:19] <hsivonen> you should assume no relationship between the metrics of the letter M and the em
  524. # [15:20] <hsivonen> speaking of font internal units, I wonder if there’s a spec or documentation about which of the 3 way of computing the line height of a TTF/OTF font browsers are supposed to use
  525. # [15:21] <matjas> zcorpan: step 11 in the algo has changed, but the change doesn’t seem to match Opera/Chrome/Safari’s implementation (unless I implemented it incorrectly)
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  527. # [15:21] <matjas> s/While input's length not a multiple of three/While input's length is zero or not a multiple of three/
  528. # [15:21] <matjas> weird
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  530. # [15:24] <hsivonen> fonts are not so dissimilar from the Web. weird legacy: http://typophile.com/node/13081
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  551. # [16:02] <annevk> zcorpan: how would they get turned into 00 if you do not handle surrogates specifically?
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  589. # [16:45] <sedovsek> o/
  590. # [16:45] <sedovsek> One question...
  591. # [16:45] <sedovsek> t = document.createTextNode(' ')
  592. # [16:45] <sedovsek> el.appendChild t
  593. # [16:45] <sedovsek> setTimeout(
  594. # [16:45] <sedovsek> -> el.removeChild t
  595. # [16:45] <sedovsek> 0
  596. # [16:45] <sedovsek> )
  597. # [16:45] <sedovsek> This does not cause refflow?
  598. # [16:46] <sedovsek> While t = document.createTextNode('x') does?
  599. # [16:46] <sedovsek> (the code above is CoffeeScript). I add an empty element to cause reflow.
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  602. # [16:54] <zcorpan> annevk: a code point above BMP are two code units, and each code unit gets converted to a 0, ergo 00
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  604. # [16:57] <annevk> zcorpan: oh, the input is code points?
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  606. # [16:58] <zcorpan> to the spec's algorithm, yes. although the wording around code points and code units changed at some point
  607. # [16:59] <annevk> oh I thought we were discussing http://simon.html5.org/test/html/rendering/color-attributes/parseColorString.js
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  609. # [17:00] <zcorpan> the input to that is a JS string
  610. # [17:00] <annevk> yeah so looks like that will fail
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  612. # [17:01] <zcorpan> why?
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  617. # [17:08] <annevk> zcorpan: well if the spec talks about 8 code points and you take 8 code units you're in trouble
  618. # [17:09] <zcorpan> annevk: the spec replaces code points above BMP with '00' before doing any interesting processing so it ends up the same
  619. # [17:09] <zewt> (i don't know what you guys are talking about, but it sounds gross)
  620. # [17:09] <annevk> sorry you had to explain that twice
  621. # [17:10] <zcorpan> np :-)
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  637. # [17:23] <matjas> zcorpan: ah, my bad indeed, for JS engines that’s an unnecessary step
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  706. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> been trying to make Henri's htmlparser code not emit errors "unescaped" semicolon-less ampersands but finding that in most cases the code emits the errors without ever getting to the point of seeing if there's a semicolon at the end or not
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  712. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> instead what it's doing is first making sure the character sequence after the ampersand matches a sequence that begins a know entity
  713. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> known named character reference
  714. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> and if it reaches the point where the sequence does not begin a known named character reference, it emits and error at the point
  715. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> and doesn't bother to see if there's any following semicolon
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  722. # [19:10] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  804. # [21:09] <Hixie> still no opinions on adding trim=""? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17972
  805. # [21:10] <Hixie> too soon? shouldn't happen? should happen soonest?
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  812. # [21:18] <annevk> neutral :)
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  814. # [21:21] <tantek> Hiixe, has sufficient need been demonstrated for trim=""?
  815. # [21:22] <Hixie> i dunno
  816. # [21:22] <tantek> sounds like a nice-to-have
  817. # [21:22] <Hixie> the people in the bug (mostly moz people) seem quite emphatic
  818. # [21:22] <Hixie> but yeah
  819. # [21:22] <zewt> sounds reasonable based on the first post but doesn't sound critical--I never expect client-side validation to be an exact match to server-side validation
  820. # [21:24] <tantek> looks like all theoretical talk
  821. # [21:24] <zewt> definitely agree that stripping for all @required is breaking and a bit nuts
  822. # [21:24] <tantek> let's see some error rate numbers
  823. # [21:25] <tantek> as opposed usability hypothesizing by non-usability people
  824. # [21:25] <tantek> I'd punt
  825. # [21:25] <tantek> show me the data
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  907. # Session Close: Wed Oct 03 00:00:00 2012

The end :)