/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-10-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 05 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  41. # [02:14] <grom358> I'm looking at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html I don't see anywhere where it enters RCDATA state
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  43. # [02:18] <grom358> oh.. i think i see.. the tree builder puts it into that mode on certain elements?
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  68. # [03:06] <MikeSmith> grom358: yeah
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  73. # [03:08] <grom358> also i think I found an error.. section 12.2.4.1 Data state says for NULL to emit the current input character.. but the current input character will be the NULL character
  74. # [03:08] <grom358> it should be emit the REPLACEMENT CHARACTER if I'm correct
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  76. # [03:09] <MikeSmith> grom358: for which state?
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  80. # [03:10] <grom358> the data state, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html#data-state
  81. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> I think that's right
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  83. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> you can test it in live DOM viewer to see what browsers actually do
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  85. # [03:19] <grom358> well firefox and chrome seem to ignore it
  86. # [03:20] <MikeSmith> grom358: that's what would be expected if they were following the spec
  87. # [03:20] <MikeSmith> the null character never gets consumed
  88. # [03:20] <MikeSmith> it gets ignored
  89. # [03:20] <grom358> where you getting that from?
  90. # [03:21] <MikeSmith> the algorithm for the data state
  91. # [03:21] <grom358> it says emit the current input character though.. not to ignore it
  92. # [03:22] <MikeSmith> oh
  93. # [03:22] <grom358> which makes me think its a bug with the spec
  94. # [03:23] <MikeSmith> but I think the tree builder will then ignore the null, right?
  95. # [03:23] <MikeSmith> if it's in content that was tokenized from the data state
  96. # [03:23] <grom358> idk.. that part is throwing me. Everywhere else in the spec NULL is replaced with the Unicode replacement character
  97. # [03:24] <grom358> in the tokenization section I mean
  98. # [03:25] <grom358> ah I see.. section 12.2.5.4.7 says it ignores character token that is U+0000 NULL
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  100. # [03:26] <MikeSmith> yeah that's the part I was thinking of I think
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  102. # [03:26] <MikeSmith> anyway it's still worth raising a bug for or posting to the whatwg list about if you think it's not clear
  103. # [03:27] <grom358> yeah.. the spec is just so big and the tree construction and tokenization so closely coupled
  104. # [03:27] <MikeSmith> Hixie could always add a note to that part of the tokenizer code to clarify why it's not replaced with a U+fffd tehre
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  107. # [03:28] <grom358> yeah... that would help
  108. # [03:29] <grom358> what I don't understand is why doesn't the tokenizer just handle all the NULL characters... Like I can see sometimes in the tree construction it is ignored and sometimes replaced with U+FFFD
  109. # [03:29] <grom358> but why not just always replace it with U+FFFD
  110. # [03:30] <grom358> could be done as part of the input stream preprocessor then
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  130. # [04:42] <grom358> ah... http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html#consume-a-character-reference . For the codepoints like 0x0001 etc.. is it meant to say return replacement character?? I don't see anything in the tree construction that replaces them
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  258. # [11:18] <hsivonen> In Aldiko (based on Adobe’s SDK), I get a blank screen if I remove space between two attributes to make XHTML ill-formed
  259. # [11:18] <hsivonen> annevk: ^
  260. # [11:18] <hsivonen> annevk: so XML is not a lie this time
  261. # [11:20] <annevk> cool cool
  262. # [11:20] <hsivonen> annevk: test files: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/epub-xml/
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  264. # [11:21] <hsivonen> annevk: this is most awesome. No error message or anything. Just a blank screen.
  265. # [11:22] <annevk> technology is awesome :)
  266. # [11:23] <hsivonen> I’d appreciate it if someone with an iDevice could load the two test files in iBooks and report the results here
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  269. # [11:40] <annevk> can do it later
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  308. # [13:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: Your response about hoping that browsers eventually "fix" the implementation of the title attribute for footnotes seems like the same kind of misplaced optimism as hoping that browsers eventually "fix" the implementation of longdesc.
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  327. # [14:53] <annevk> hsivonen: both work in iBooks
  328. # [14:54] <annevk> hsivonen: that the files are identical in content makes them somewhat confusing
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  333. # [15:04] <annevk> hsivonen: so yeah, I guess Apple uses the HTML parser if you use .html as extension
  334. # [15:04] <annevk> so maybe you should make another one with .xml or so
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  337. # [15:08] <annevk> zcorpan: maybe you should list me as former editor or something on html5-diff
  338. # [15:08] <annevk> zcorpan: and maybe remove the Opera affiliation
  339. # [15:09] <annevk> or say "formerly" there too
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  342. # [15:15] <zcorpan> annevk: fixed in the editor's draft
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  344. # [15:16] <annevk> cool
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  349. # [15:20] <annevk> matjas: thanks for sorting out the separators
  350. # [15:20] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  351. # [15:21] <annevk> matjas: now some final word on browsers with regards to IDNA2003 vs IDNA2008 vs UTS #46 and we're all set :)
  352. # [15:21] <annevk> s/on browsers/from browsers/
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  354. # [15:23] <zcorpan> annevk: i want IDNA5!
  355. # [15:23] <zcorpan> and that's final.
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  357. # [15:23] <annevk> "Domain Name Standard"
  358. # [15:24] <annevk> but I fucking hope not
  359. # [15:24] <Ms2ger> Living Domain Name Standard
  360. # [15:24] <annevk> or at least not with my name on it :)
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  362. # [15:24] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks. boo Apple then.
  363. # [15:24] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, IDNA120?
  364. # [15:25] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: why 120?
  365. # [15:25] <Ms2ger> 5!
  366. # [15:25] <hsivonen> annevk: the rendering engine is supposed to take the mime type from the opf manifest—not from the file name
  367. # [15:25] <hsivonen> facepalm time: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19277
  368. # [15:26] <annevk> hsivonen: where does it say it's XML in that manifest?
  369. # [15:26] <Ms2ger> 'there is no hidden="" in HTML5 that I am aware of'
  370. # [15:27] <annevk> well, it's hidden
  371. # [15:27] <hsivonen> annevk: <item id="main" href="test.html" media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
  372. # [15:27] <Ms2ger> annevk, nicely done, sir
  373. # [15:28] <hsivonen> annevk: I guess more testing with prefixed SVG, etc. is required to find out if iBooks uses an HTML parser or a bogo-XML parser
  374. # [15:28] <annevk> hsivonen: ooh, that's the test.opf file
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  376. # [15:29] <annevk> hsivonen: in the toc.ncx file it just points to the file
  377. # [15:29] <hsivonen> annevk: the point of the <manifest> in the opf is to provide MIME types for the zip entries
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  379. # [15:29] <hsivonen> annevk: the NCX is a machine-readable table of contents
  380. # [15:30] <hsivonen> annevk: the NCX format is very, very sad, as you can see
  381. # [15:30] <hsivonen> from DAISY
  382. # [15:30] <annevk> so you search for *.opf files or is it required to be named test.opf?
  383. # [15:30] <annevk> yeah, that format is ugly
  384. # [15:30] <hsivonen> annevk: no, there’s more indirection
  385. # [15:30] <zcorpan> curious how john tries to find the answer to what the spec says about hidden="" by reading about what the spec says about <noscript>
  386. # [15:31] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, sounds like the best way to approach HTML4
  387. # [15:31] <hsivonen> annevk: META-INF/container.xml is the well-known zip entry. It points to the opf
  388. # [15:31] <annevk> zcorpan: prolly the same way the tag talks about URLs by reading HTML rather than the new document
  389. # [15:31] <annevk> hsivonen: man, shit's complicated
  390. # [15:31] <annevk> the TAG, apologies
  391. # [15:32] <darobin> the epub format is a stinking mess
  392. # [15:33] <hsivonen> NCX is like a format parody. It requires the generator to supply an incrementing integer on the nav points for order instead of just using the order of the elements in the XML tree
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  396. # [15:33] <annevk> hahahaha
  397. # [15:34] <darobin> oh yeah
  398. # [15:34] <hsivonen> darobin: what stinks except NCX?
  399. # [15:34] <darobin> and it's all in the name of performance
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  401. # [15:34] <annevk> cannot make that shit up
  402. # [15:34] <darobin> because, you know, jumping everywhere around a zip archive is fast
  403. # [15:34] <darobin> hsivonen: what else is there to stink? :)
  404. # [15:35] <darobin> they would have been better off using Widgets
  405. # [15:35] <annevk> hsivonen: please make a /epub/ entry on your blog
  406. # [15:35] <annevk> hsivonen: even if just bullet points
  407. # [15:35] <darobin> s/points//
  408. # [15:35] <hsivonen> well, XML Encryption, XML DigSig and the excessive indirection of META-INF/container.xml
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  410. # [15:36] <darobin> oh I'd forgotten they had the XML security stack imported in there
  411. # [15:36] <hsivonen> but the <manifest>, <spine> and <guide> stuff is rather OK
  412. # [15:36] <hsivonen> for EPUB 2.0, the metadata was OKish, too
  413. # [15:36] <darobin> I reckon it should all be in the HTML
  414. # [15:36] <hsivonen> in EPUB 3.0, they made it more complicated for no apparent practical reason
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  416. # [15:36] <darobin> even if it means having to perform an indexing pass on first open
  417. # [15:37] <hsivonen> I think the use of XHTML instead of HTML is not a big deal.
  418. # [15:37] <hsivonen> and their legacy UAs now need XHTML rather than HTML
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  420. # [15:38] <hsivonen> If you don’t sign stuff, you can ignore DigSig as an author
  421. # [15:38] <hsivonen> and for font mangling, you can treat XML Encryption as cargo cult boilerplate
  422. # [15:38] <darobin> I've heard a few horror stories from a small shop here that does ebooks about things like readers crashing hard because the various meta files were out of sync with the content
  423. # [15:39] <darobin> less indirection would help there
  424. # [15:40] <hsivonen> I think NCX stinks the most. I think changing metadata in an incompatible way is the weirdest decision.
  425. # [15:43] <zcorpan> i replied on the bug, not sure if that was a mistake or not
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  427. # [15:49] <annevk> hsivonen: looks like XML usage would fail in iBooks
  428. # [15:49] <annevk> hsivonen: e.g. if you prefix stuff
  429. # [15:50] <hsivonen> annevk: :-(
  430. # [15:50] <hsivonen> annevk: even as .xhtml?
  431. # [15:50] <hsivonen> I thought iBook even extended XHTML with namespaced stuff
  432. # [15:51] <annevk> hsivonen: dunno about that (I think that would work, but I have not tested)
  433. # [15:51] <hsivonen> *iBooks
  434. # [15:51] <hsivonen> I guess this explains why glazou enforces .xhtml naming even though opf is supposed to allow any naming you like
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  441. # [16:09] <matjas> annevk: http://mathias.html5.org/tests/url/idna2003-separators/ (using `iframe) vs. http://mathias.html5.org/tests/url/idna2003-separators/a.html (using `a`)
  442. # [16:10] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  443. # [16:10] <annevk> fucked up
  444. # [16:11] <matjas> me or The Web?
  445. # [16:11] * Joins: Kaelig (~Kaelig@212.58.231.91)
  446. # [16:12] <Kaelig> Hi, I have a meta proposal to make (apple-mobile-web-app-title), is it possible to have a personal account to the Wiki so I can add it?
  447. # [16:12] <karlcow> matjas: choose your pain
  448. # [16:13] <annevk> matjas: the behavior
  449. # [16:13] <Kaelig> Basically I'd like to be able to edit that page: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions
  450. # [16:13] <matjas> i just hope my test is correct
  451. # [16:14] <annevk> Kaelig: sure thing, need a desired account name and email
  452. # [16:14] <matjas> if this is a bug, which spec does it belong to?
  453. # [16:14] <annevk> matjas: URL needs to define this I think, unless we really want distinct behavior
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  455. # [16:15] <matjas> want me to file a separate issue for this then?
  456. # [16:15] <annevk> matjas: might want to raise this on the WHATWG list actually, so bz sees it :) I can take a closer look at your tests though
  457. # [16:16] <annevk> matjas: problem is a.src
  458. # [16:16] <annevk> matjas: it's a.href
  459. # [16:16] <matjas> ah duh
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  462. # [16:24] <Kaelig> annevk: Cheers, account: "kaelig", email: "kaelig@deloumeau.fr"
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  465. # [16:27] <annevk> "A randomly generated password for Kaelig has been sent to kaelig@deloumeau.fr."
  466. # [16:28] <Kaelig> Thanks annevk :)
  467. # [16:28] <Kaelig> appreciate it
  468. # [16:30] <Kaelig> I'm not sure I understand the process of proposing a meta extension
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  472. # [16:33] * smaug____ hates touch events
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  474. # [16:34] * matjas touches hate events
  475. # [16:34] * matjas events hate touches
  476. # [16:34] <Kaelig> Hopefully I did it correctly :)
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  478. # [16:39] <zewt> annevk: headed to work and just throwing this out there so I don't forget--does XHR guarantee that tasks queued by "make progress notifications" to fire onprogress always happen before switching to DONE, to make sure those tasks aren't run later, firing progress after load/loadend have been fired
  479. # [16:39] <annevk> zewt: yeah I think I changed that based on your comment
  480. # [16:40] <annevk> Kaelig: looks fine to me, thanks for your effort
  481. # [16:40] <hsivonen> annevk: new test files in case you are interested in poking iBooks: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/epub-xml/
  482. # [16:40] <hsivonen> findings so far: ezPDF on Android uses an HTML parser always, even for .xhtml
  483. # [16:40] * annevk gets his iPhone
  484. # [16:41] <hsivonen> so you have to make polyglot content if you want to support broken reading systems like that
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  486. # [16:41] <annevk> so the xhtml files are new right?
  487. # [16:41] <Kaelig> Cheers annevk, plus I didn't know Anne could be a male name!
  488. # [16:41] <zewt> don't see it offhand (maybe the task ordering implies this--not sure which task queue the actual fetch happens in)
  489. # [16:42] <annevk> Kaelig: heh yeah, kind of an exclusively Dutch thing I found out :)
  490. # [16:42] <zewt> (same thing for "timeout error", etc)
  491. # [16:42] <zewt> anyway gotta go
  492. # [16:42] <annevk> hsivonen: ill-formed renders, including both circles
  493. # [16:42] <hsivonen> wow
  494. # [16:43] <zewt> reading html specs has a way of making me late for work :)
  495. # [16:43] <annevk> hsivonen: I am kinda wondering what is going on now
  496. # [16:43] <hsivonen> so they have a bogo-XML parser
  497. # [16:43] <annevk> XML5 in iBooks?
  498. # [16:43] <hsivonen> annevk: what about the line break? does it behave like single <br> or like two?
  499. # [16:44] <annevk> I saw Apple was writing a new XML parser for WebKit at some point
  500. # [16:44] <annevk> maybe that was related somehow
  501. # [16:44] <annevk> hsivonen: single
  502. # [16:44] <annevk> "Second para. SINGLE line break:
  503. # [16:44] <hsivonen> annevk: also possible that their XML parser has a bug and my way of making the file ill-formed is too subtle
  504. # [16:45] <annevk> Line after break." is how it renders
  505. # [16:45] <hsivonen> annevk: ok
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  508. # [16:45] <annevk> data:text/xml,<test test=""test=""/> fails in Safari fwiw
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  510. # [16:46] <annevk> ooh
  511. # [16:46] <annevk> data:text/xml,<test xmlns=""xml:lang=""/> does not
  512. # [16:46] <hsivonen> wild
  513. # [16:46] <annevk> it's the xmlns thing
  514. # [16:46] <annevk> but Safari uses libxml2 no?
  515. # [16:46] <hsivonen> so I thought
  516. # [16:47] <hsivonen> more test cases needed!
  517. # [16:47] <annevk> heh
  518. # [16:47] <hsivonen> sadly, I’m not going to write those today
  519. # [16:47] <annevk> is this just for fun btw? or are you doing something with epub?
  520. # [16:47] <hsivonen> for fun
  521. # [16:47] <annevk> kk
  522. # [16:47] <hsivonen> I got interested in epub
  523. # [16:47] <hsivonen> so I read the spec...
  524. # [16:48] <hsivonen> and then got in the asshole mode according to Pilgrims taxonomy
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  526. # [16:51] <annevk> zewt: whenever the load/error event is fired progress is fired too explicitly
  527. # [16:56] <karlcow> epub is a tad depressing, not only on the ereader side, but also on the authoring side.
  528. # [16:56] <karlcow> It would be interesting to run a survey collecting the authoring practices on epub. Maybe someone at Amazon could do that.
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  531. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> http://www.slideshare.net/mnot/what-http20-will-do-for-you
  532. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> HTTP 2.0 is the new HTML5
  533. # [17:05] <annevk> still missing error handling in HTTP
  534. # [17:05] <annevk> although I guess SPDY will make it different if there's compression and stuff
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  552. # [17:42] <fantasai> Hixie: I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the mailing list post you're linking to on http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Specs_todo is not the right mailing list post.
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  597. # [18:56] <Hixie> hsivonen: longdesc="" is unfixable due to content corruption because most people didn't see it; with title="" the problem is the opposite: we have good content, we just aren't exposing it to quite everyone.
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  600. # [19:00] <Hixie> fantasai: can you elaborate?
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  604. # [19:14] <fantasai> Hixie: It says "This mailing list post has some advice on the matter."
  605. # [19:15] <fantasai> Hixie: where the matter is volunteering to edit specifications
  606. # [19:15] <fantasai> Hixie: But the post linked from there is some random commentary wrt text breaking and <wbr>
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  618. # [19:49] <stevefaulkner> hixie: your statement about good content in the title attribute is demonstrably false there loads of redundant and crap content stuffed into title attributes, especially on links, some representative examples: http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/title-usage.html
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  623. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> Ah, I didn't know zcorpan left Opera.
  624. # [20:07] <Wilto> I can vouch for that. Windows 8’s Narrator reads every `title` aloud, and the vast majority of the time it’s a duplicate of the text inside the element. It’s pretty obnoxious.
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  627. # [20:15] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, what makes you think so?
  628. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> Le sigh. Reading comprehension fail. I was reading a line from annevk *directed* to zcorpan.
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  633. # [20:19] <Velmont> TabAtkins: Quit messin' with me health :S
  634. # [20:19] <Ms2ger> Velmont, so I heard this odinho guy left Opera?
  635. # [20:19] <Velmont> Ms2ger :|
  636. # [20:20] <Ms2ger> Velmont, apparently he wants to work for Mozilla?
  637. # [20:20] <Velmont> Ms2ger: Hey, I was the one giving _you_ a job offer!
  638. # [20:20] <Ms2ger> Heh
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  642. # [20:26] <jgraham> Wait, what? Velmont wants to work for Ms2ger?
  643. # [20:27] <Velmont> jgraham: annevk left a big open space next to my desk, I invited Ms2ger to fill it :]
  644. # [20:27] <jgraham> You're calling annevk fat now?
  645. # [20:27] <Ms2ger> Zing
  646. # [20:28] <Velmont> O_o
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  649. # [20:29] <Velmont> Ms2ger: Not coming to TPAC I guess?
  650. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> Or did you call *me* fat?
  651. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> And no, no tpac for me
  652. # [20:30] <jgraham> If Ms2ger ever comes to TPAC, we will have o rename it 2PAC
  653. # [20:30] <Ms2ger> He's aliiiiiive
  654. # [20:31] <Velmont> Ms2ger: So that's who you really are!
  655. # [20:31] <Ms2ger> Uh-oh
  656. # [20:31] <Ms2ger> I confirm nor deny that
  657. # [20:31] <Velmont> Hence the psedonym
  658. # [20:32] <jgraham> That will be the year that we all get gunned down by IETF representatives in a standards body turf war
  659. # [20:32] <jgraham> Just think
  660. # [20:32] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  661. # [20:32] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  662. # [20:33] <jgraham> The last words you will hear are destined to be "we don' need no motherf-in' text/html"
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  671. # [20:59] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Apparently we (Webkit) have a quirk that allows "width: 20 px;", etc., to match WinIE. Any evidence that this is still needed? (afaik it's not in your quirksmode draft, since I didn't fold it into Syntax).
  672. # [21:00] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
  673. # [21:01] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, I'm pretty sure Gecko doesn't have it, and I've never heard someone complain
  674. # [21:02] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Cool. I'll write a removal patch, then.
  675. # [21:02] <Ms2ger> \o/
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  677. # [21:05] <Velmont> Opera doesn't either, -- in my small test, if it's correct, http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=1818
  678. # [21:05] * Joins: smus (~smus@d66-183-216-150.bchsia.telus.net)
  679. # [21:06] <TabAtkins> If someone could check IE, that'd be great. We have a bunch of "hacks to match WinIE" that are way outdated.
  680. # [21:07] <Velmont> Not Iceweasel either, only the "Web" on this machine does it. :P
  681. # [21:07] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:26:982b:63:2fd6) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  682. # [21:07] * ap_ is now known as ap
  683. # [21:07] <TabAtkins> (Killed one in <marquee> yesterday. ^_^)
  684. # [21:07] <Velmont> TabAtkins: I can on monday when I'm back at work :P
  685. # [21:07] <TabAtkins> Unhelpful for me right now. ^_^
  686. # [21:07] <Velmont> I guess "Web"'s real name is Epiphany, but they prolly didn't like the name, so made it generic.
  687. # [21:08] <TabAtkins> Anyway, since FF and O don't do it, and zcorpan didn't think it was a useful enough quirk to go in his draft, I'll try to kill it.
  688. # [21:08] <Velmont> Strange that I don't have the real browsers for the engines on this random hackspace computer, - "Web" for webkit, and Iceweasel for Gecko. The Presto one is Opera though.
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  702. # [21:56] <Hixie> fantasai: no idea what i was trying to link to. I looked through the list around the time of hte wiki edit, but i don't see anything relevant. Oh well. Removed it. Thanks for the heads-up.
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  716. # [22:11] <Hixie> stevefaulkner: title=""'s data is nowhere near as bogus as longdesc="", if it was, UAs would be refusing to show tooltips at all and we'd be removing title="" from the spec.
  717. # [22:12] * Quits: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@190.244.76.14) (Remote host closed the connection)
  718. # [22:12] <Hixie> (there's lots of crap on the web in general, what matters is whether on balance it's better to show it or not)
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  720. # [22:20] <tantek> Hixie, the opposite tends to be true - when implementations show things by default, the data that gets put in them tends to be of higher quality.
  721. # [22:20] <tantek> hence why title is not as polluted as longdesc
  722. # [22:21] <Ms2ger> tantek, ... yes?
  723. # [22:23] <tantek> longdesc should have been dropped after 1-2 years after HTML4 REC and browsers had failed to implement it.
  724. # [22:23] <tantek> per today's CR exit criteria kind of thing
  725. # [22:23] <Ms2ger> tantek, ... yes?
  726. # [22:23] <tantek> at least we're doing that for HTML5 now
  727. # [22:23] <tantek> Ms2ger, are you stuck in a loop?
  728. # [22:23] <Ms2ger> tantek, ... yes?
  729. # [22:23] <tantek> :D
  730. # [22:23] <Ms2ger> :)
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  732. # [22:24] * Ms2ger wanders off
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  737. # [22:31] <GPHemsley> Hixie: In 2010, you add the following to the Specs todo page: " Animated GIFs need a spec that, in particular, specifies how to handle timings (not all browsers honour all values, so we should specify what needs to be honoured exactly) ". Did you mean that GIF should be respecced in its entirety, or just the small section that applies to animated GIFs?
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  749. # [22:55] <stevefaulkner> hixie: never claimed it was, (re longdesc) but would be surprised if the ratio for useful info in title is greater than 20% if you call that 'balance'. UAs have voted with their almost total lack of showing tooltips on mobile/touch
  750. # [22:57] <zewt> (a useful thing, i'd say: it discourages people from designing bad UIs that are unusable without tooltips; very annoying if you're like me and turn off tooltips because they're annoying)
  751. # [23:00] <Hixie> GPHemsley: i haven't examiend the GIF spec, so i've no idea
  752. # [23:00] <Hixie> GPHemsley: i don't know how good interop is for gif or how well the spec matches reality
  753. # [23:00] <Hixie> GPHemsley: animated gifs in particular aren't specced well though
  754. # [23:00] <Hixie> stevefaulkner: given that "90% of everything is crap", 20% seems damn good :-)
  755. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> Uh, mobile doesn't show title because you don't have the ability to communicate "hover".
  756. # [23:01] <zewt> (wow, splitting a quote in Gmail caused a random paragraph I wrote elsewhere to just vanish)
  757. # [23:01] <stevefaulkner> zewt: i have no problem with it, the only thing a title attribute is good for at this point (after 19 years) is providing an accessible name for a control, it cannot be relied upon for exposing visible content to users in any browser
  758. # [23:02] <GPHemsley> Hixie: So do you suppose it would be best to just re-spec the whole thing? As it is, it seems the spec is only available in plaintext, anyway.
  759. # [23:02] <zewt> TabAtkins: heh, my phone detects touches when my finger gets close to the screen, without touching it; probably a hardware bug, but could perhaps be leveraged for "touch hovering" :)
  760. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> zewt: Yeah, phones are reactivity-based, so getting *close* can alter the current enough to be detected.
  761. # [23:04] <zewt> probably a mis-configured capacitance threshold
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  763. # [23:04] <Hixie> GPHemsley: i have no opinion because i don't have enough data to form an opinion. As a general rule, i wouldn't recommend rewriting a spec unless it was absolutely necessary, though (necessary meaning "the spec doesn't match reality so interop is poor")
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  765. # [23:05] <GPHemsley> Hixie: So, if I were to want to help fulfill that todo-list bullet point, what would you recommend my first steps be?
  766. # [23:06] <Hixie> GPHemsley: read the existing spec, write a test suite, see how closely the browsers match the spec
  767. # [23:06] <Hixie> GPHemsley: collect samples of real content, see how much of it works as the spec expects
  768. # [23:07] <zewt> perhaps step 0: find a single example of an animated GIF in the wild that doesn't work in every browser :)
  769. # [23:07] <GPHemsley> zewt: I was hoping Hixie might have such examples :)
  770. # [23:07] <zewt> (not saying they don't exist, but I've never seen one)
  771. # [23:07] <Hixie> GPHemsley: (e.g. i'd expect teh latter to find that the web relies on timings doing something different than the specs say)
  772. # [23:07] <Hixie> zewt: it's good to spec things even if all today's browsers do them
  773. # [23:08] <Hixie> zewt: because (a) it helps new competition to be possible and (b) it means that in 1,000 years, archeologists can write browsers for their architectures to read today's web content
  774. # [23:08] <zewt> Hixie: sure, but the answer to that question goes towards answering whether "interop is poor"
  775. # [23:08] <Hixie> certainly wouldn't hurt to do that kind of research. indeed
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  778. # [23:10] <GPHemsley> zewt: There are a ton of GIFs on the Internet that go way too fast or way too slow, but I don't know where the fault lies there.
  779. # [23:10] <GPHemsley> (Presumably somebody somewhere thought it was at some point the right speed.)
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  781. # [23:11] <zewt> that might be where the delay is 0
  782. # [23:12] <zewt> which might be an underspecced point, yeah
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  784. # [23:13] <zewt> another thing that may differ, though I can't think of how it might matter, is some browsers always showing the same frame for each gif anywhere it's shown (even cross-tab/window)
  785. # [23:13] <zewt> presumably due to the underlying image implementation being the same object
  786. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I think we might share timers sometimes?
  787. # [23:14] <zewt> think i've seen that in FF
  788. # [23:14] * mp3jeep01 is now known as jsoncorwin
  789. # [23:15] <zewt> i find it odd that i've actually seen people objecting to *not* showing animated favicons in tabs, heh
  790. # [23:16] <zewt> (had to jump some hoops to prevent obnoxious sites from constantly showing animations in my tabs in FF; don't recall if that was fixed or if I just have some workaround sitting in my userChrome)
  791. # [23:16] <zewt> oh yeah i hide .tab-icon-image[src$=".gif"]
  792. # [23:17] <zewt> (and others)
  793. # [23:17] <Hixie> wtf, the building i'm in feels like it's being driven down a road on a truck
  794. # [23:17] <Hixie> (doesn't feel like an earthquake, and it's been going on for far too long to be one)
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  796. # [23:18] <SimonSapin> Hixie: earthquakes can last several minutes
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  798. # [23:18] * jsoncorw_ is now known as jsoncorwin
  799. # [23:18] <Hixie> this has been going on for like 30
  800. # [23:18] <zewt> perhaps armageddon
  801. # [23:18] <Hixie> pretty sunny for armageddon
  802. # [23:19] <SimonSapin> (ok, japan on 2011-03-11 is not the average example)
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  804. # [23:19] <zewt> armageddon: surprisingly anticlimactic
  805. # [23:19] <Hixie> brb
  806. # [23:20] <zewt> are you rebooting to see if it makes the building stop shaking?
  807. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> Hixie: No earthquake.
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  813. # [23:37] <annevk> once had such a thing at Opera, was some kind of cleaning equipment iirc
  814. # [23:38] <annevk> xkcd uses title=""
  815. # [23:40] <zewt> off-hand, is conformance criteria ever applied towards JS API usage, or only HTML authoring?
  816. # [23:40] <annevk> so far I only encourage stuff with JS things
  817. # [23:40] <annevk> and some stuff I don't provide a domintro for intentionally
  818. # [23:41] <annevk> but it's not really structured or planned
  819. # [23:41] <zewt> <annevk> zewt: whenever the load/error event is fired progress is fired too explicitly <- but the "make progress definitions" might have a task queued to fire progress again (the task may have been queued right before the other firing of progress)
  820. # [23:41] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah i think it's really just the B40 A/C
  821. # [23:42] <Hixie> zewt: as a general rule, because scripting is impossible to statically test, we rarely bother to define authoring criteria
  822. # [23:42] <zewt> eg. 1: queue task 2: "timeout error" happens and fires progress, then 3: the queued task runs
  823. # [23:42] <annevk> no that cannot happen because timeout is also queued
  824. # [23:43] <annevk> you could get a "duplicate" maybe
  825. # [23:43] <annevk> but I think that was rather unlikely with the current definitions
  826. # [23:43] <zewt> duplicates aren't a big deal
  827. # [23:44] <annevk> I don't really like how this part of XHR is defined, but I haven't really come up with a better way
  828. # [23:44] <annevk> and putting it on github has not inspired people to fix things :)
  829. # [23:44] <annevk> they just tweet about it
  830. # [23:45] <annevk> but I suppose such a thing might take a while and editing is prolly kinda daunting still
  831. # [23:45] <zewt> like it's not clear to me when the "if timeout is not 0..." conditional is actually performed
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  835. # [23:46] <zewt> those look like a set of callbacks somehow handed off to Fetch, but i don't think that's the right reading
  836. # [23:46] <annevk> fetch queues tasks
  837. # [23:47] <annevk> those tasks then run past those steps
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  840. # [23:51] <zewt> annevk: aren't they in different task sources?
  841. # [23:51] <zewt> fetch is in the networking task source, XHR's queue-a-task is in the XHR's own
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  843. # [23:52] <zewt> hmm, might help clarity if fetch had a name for "the algorithm run by the queued tasks", which just says "uses the resource as appropriate"
  844. # [23:52] <Hixie> yeah, one day
  845. # [23:52] <zewt> (had to squint for a bit to make that connection)
  846. # [23:53] <Hixie> we'll probably do that when we redo fetch.spec.whatwg.org
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  849. # Session Close: Sat Oct 06 00:00:00 2012

The end :)