/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-10-12 / end

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  62. # [02:11] <ap__> Hixie_: can shared workers actually be created by name "without the applications having to keep track of a common URL for the script used to provide the service"? I only see SharedWorker constructor that requires a matching URL even if a name is provided. Is there another API that can find a worker by name?
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  88. # [03:01] <Yuhong> # [16:32] <zewt> it sounded to me like he was equating "IE's encodings" to "the underlying codepage tables in Windows", which seemed wrong, but for legacy codepages it doesn't really matter to me which implementation to move towards, as long as we do
  89. # [03:02] <Yuhong> It is pretty close already anyway, and legacy encoding is not something people would develop new content to.
  90. # [03:02] <Yuhong> Nobody cares about JIS X 0212 support in EUC-JP.
  91. # [03:02] <Yuhong> For examle.
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  179. # [07:19] <hsivonen> jgraham: I was not stating an official Mozilla position. I don’t even know by what mechanism Mozilla could develop an official position on something. Mozilla is a diverse community of people with a diversity of opinion.
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  182. # [07:20] <hsivonen> jgraham: The word “our” you were wondering about referred to me and a non-zero number of other engineers who work on Gecko and who may identify themselves if they so choose.
  183. # [07:23] <hsivonen> Hixie_: When you get mutually contradictory feedback from multiple implementors who have an active interest in a feature, it makes sense to “carefully consider” and arbitrate one way of speccing it.
  184. # [07:23] <Hixie_> hsivonen: that's what i did
  185. # [07:23] <Hixie_> hsivonen: i just didn't arbitrate to the one way mozilla wants :-)
  186. # [07:23] <Hixie_> (in this particular case)
  187. # [07:24] <hsivonen> Hixie_: however, when you get negative implementor feedback and still choose to keep stuff in the spec, in practice the part of spec is waiting for another implementor to come along and implement what’s in the spec
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  189. # [07:24] <Hixie_> everything in the spec is waiting for implementations, sure
  190. # [07:25] <hsivonen> Hixie_: pointing to Web SQL is not a great example. It should not be that hard to get something dropped. Moreover, it has not even been successfully dropped from all implementations.
  191. # [07:26] <Hixie_> hard? i dropped websql literally in the meeting where mozilla and microsoft said they weren't interested, iirc.
  192. # [07:26] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek) (Quit: jarek)
  193. # [07:28] <hsivonen> Hixie_: in any case, keeping stuff in the spec is not neutral even if the features still have the opportunity to fail to get implemented
  194. # [07:29] <hsivonen> Hixie_: if there is a dispute and you leave something in the spec, you are tilting the odds in favor of what’s in the spec getting implemented by someone
  195. # [07:29] <Hixie_> yes, that's the idea
  196. # [07:30] <Hixie_> the job of a spec editor is to be opinionated and to do what he thinks is best to improve the web the best way, not to be neutral. neutral is what gets you committee-driven wishy-washy design.
  197. # [07:32] <hsivonen> Hixie_: you think it’s your job to be opinionated against implementor feedback in cases where feedback from active implementors goes basically in one direction
  198. # [07:32] <hsivonen> ?
  199. # [07:32] <hsivonen> (as opposed to the case of arbitrating contradictory feedback from multiple active implementors)
  200. # [07:33] <Hixie_> hsivonen: i have feedback from multiple vendors on this particular issue
  201. # [07:33] <hsivonen> Hixie_: oh?
  202. # [07:33] <Hixie_> though yes, in the abstract, even if it was just one vendor, sure
  203. # [07:33] <hsivonen> Hixie_: are the other vendors actively implementing
  204. # [07:33] <hsivonen> ?
  205. # [07:34] <Hixie_> (i.e. if we have a use case X that everyone agrees should be done, and only one vendor has made a comment, and that comment is obviously wrong (not saying it's that stark in this case, of course), then obviously my job is to ignore that vendor's feedback)
  206. # [07:34] <Hixie_> hsivonen: i'm not aware of any actively implementing
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  208. # [07:35] <hsivonen> Hixie_: uh. Firefox has had an implementation of context menu items (not the spec way) for months. (Probably on the release channel even, I don’t recall it getting turned off.)
  209. # [07:35] <Hixie_> yes
  210. # [07:35] <Hixie_> i meant any others
  211. # [07:35] <hsivonen> Hixie_: I see
  212. # [07:35] <Hixie_> sorry, thought that was clear :-)
  213. # [07:37] <hsivonen> Hixie_: well, to the extent I’ve talked with other Gecko engineers, this pattern in general (not necessarily in the context menu case in particular) is the top beef with the WHATWG way of working.
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  215. # [07:37] <Hixie_> what other cases are there?
  216. # [07:40] <hsivonen> Hixie_: I forget right now, so can’t be too serious.
  217. # [07:41] <Hixie_> if there are cases of me doing something that mozilla people aren't happy with, please don't hesitate to immediately bring them to my attention, either in public or privately, so that i can make sure i review the situation
  218. # [07:41] <Hixie_> that applies now or in the future
  219. # [07:41] <hsivonen> Hixie_: the pattern that your opinion stays in the spec unless two implementors actively implement something else is the real annoyance with the WHATWG way of doing things
  220. # [07:42] <Hixie_> whose opinion should be in the spec instead? :-)
  221. # [07:42] <Hixie_> maybe we should get them to edit the spec :-)
  222. # [07:44] <hsivonen> Hixie_: well, if you get negative implementor feedback, I think the spec should change even before implementors show they are serious by implementing something that’s not specced
  223. # [07:45] <hsivonen> Hixie_: I’m pretty sure I’ve let you know when you’ve done something specific I wasn’t happy with
  224. # [07:45] <Hixie_> no, that i disagree with. what matters is what the feedback is, not just who says it.
  225. # [07:46] <hsivonen> Hixie_: or, at least, the spec text should now appear together with the well-baked stuff so that other implementors don’t accidentally implement disputed stuff out of not having paid attention to dispute
  226. # [07:46] <Hixie_> if i put something in the spec, and google tells me "hey you should make this work like X instead", where X is something that's good for google but bad for the web, then i think it'd be wrong for me to put X in. And I don't think it's worth putting a warning in the spec there for that kind of case.
  227. # [07:46] <Hixie_> we do have warnings for other things.
  228. # [07:46] * jonlee_ is now known as jonlee|afk
  229. # [07:47] <Hixie_> (usually though by the time i know it's controversial i can also fix it right then)
  230. # [07:47] <hsivonen> Hixie_: I can’t argue with that kind of formulation
  231. # [07:47] <Hixie_> heh
  232. # [07:47] <Hixie_> i'm just saying it's not black and white
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  234. # [07:47] <Hixie_> i agree that there are cases where we should have warnings
  235. # [07:48] <Hixie_> i would even grant that we should have them more often
  236. # [07:48] <Hixie_> let me know if you think i should add one :-)
  237. # [07:48] <Hixie_> (last one i added i think was for bz)
  238. # [07:50] <hsivonen> FWIW, *my* personal latest beef is that when I was working on the script/stylesheet interblocking stuff, you (IIRC) insisted on keeping the unworkable spec text. So I had to make something up. Then a WebKit dude raised the same issue over a year (?) later and you found in favor of WebKit.
  239. # [07:50] <hsivonen> and now I’ve paged out all that stuff and moved on and Gecko is wrong per spec
  240. # [07:50] <Hixie_> the lag is definitely an issue. i'm actively working on reducing that.
  241. # [07:51] <Hixie_> not sure about the specifics of that case though
  242. # [07:51] <hsivonen> I think it’s a mild instance of the pattern of you keeping your way so that implementations end up differing
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  244. # [07:51] <hsivonen> in that case, your way was always fictitious, AFAICT
  245. # [07:52] <Hixie_> if i didn't have good rationale for doing that, and it wasn't just that i hadn't gotten to it yet, then i apologise. (well i apologise in any case.)
  246. # [07:52] <hsivonen> Hixie_: ok.
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  248. # [07:53] <Hixie_> (i don't recall that specific case so not sure what the situation was)
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  250. # [07:53] <Hixie_> oh wait, was this the document.write() thing?
  251. # [07:53] <hsivonen> (what you wanted was the most consistent thing, IIRC. just unworkable with real event loops)
  252. # [07:54] <hsivonen> doc.write and parser-blocking sheets, yeah
  253. # [07:54] <Hixie_> wasn't what you wanted that the input stream track on a byte-by-byte basis whether the text was from document.write() or something else?
  254. # [07:55] <hsivonen> yeah, but I had to come up with *something* on my own, when you insisted on keeping the spec in a state that wasn’t going to fly
  255. # [07:55] <Hixie_> if it's that then the reason i didn't do what you wanted is that i thought that was a huge implementation burden, and i thought that there was a better way to do it. the reason it took so long to do is just that it took me forever to get around to it due to lag, which i am working to reduce
  256. # [07:55] <Hixie_> you should have found the better solution i eventually found :-P
  257. # [07:55] <Hixie_> wasn't just that i sided with webkit
  258. # [07:55] <Hixie_> i sided with IE, Gecko 3.6, Opera, and WebKit :-P
  259. # [07:56] <Hixie_> (er, Firefox 3.6)
  260. # [07:56] <hsivonen> not with IE, though, right?
  261. # [07:56] <Hixie_> well, IE's behaviour is pretty wacked iirc, but it didn't have any evidence of tracking per-byte source either
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  266. # [08:04] <hsivonen> s/should now appear/should NOT appear/ above
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  301. # [09:12] <JonathanNeal> Should the links inside a <nav> also be in a <ul> and <li>, or are there other appropriate elements they could be in?
  302. # [09:16] <Hixie_> <p> is fine too
  303. # [09:16] <Hixie_> or just nothing, if it's one paragraph
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  306. # [09:17] <jgraham> hsivonen: Oh. The use of "our" to mean "an unnamed and hiterto unmentioned group of individuals distict from the organisation I nominally represent", was very unclear
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  308. # [09:18] <JonathanNeal> Something bothers me about the readability of the <ul>. I want to have a collection of links, but I want them to be meaningful. I'm not sure if <nav> provides enough meaning to drop the <ul> or even <p>.
  309. # [09:19] <JonathanNeal> Thanks for the input, Hixie_.
  310. # [09:19] * toyoshim is now known as toyoshiAw
  311. # [09:20] <AryehGregor> jgraham, generally in the W3C, David Baron seems to be the only one who presents official Mozilla positions. I think he normally says things like "Mozilla supports X" when he does so, like "Mozilla supports the publication of X as a FPWD."
  312. # [09:20] <AryehGregor> He's our AC rep, so he kind of has to speak officially sometimes.
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  316. # [09:22] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Right. I *know* that Mozilla people don't claim to give official positions, which is why I asked. Someone who didn't know that could reasonably assume from the phrasing of the email that hsivonen was in fact giving a Mozilla position.
  317. # [09:23] <AryehGregor> I guess hsivonen might speak de facto officially for Mozilla on matters relating to parsing, since he owns that module.
  318. # [09:23] <AryehGregor> Well, yeah.
  319. # [09:23] <AryehGregor> The other thing about Mozilla is, we don't have a PR team haranguing us about how to phrase our communications. :)
  320. # [09:24] <AryehGregor> (at Google I was allowed to say whatever I wanted, but I was asked on at least one occasion to phrase something so that it couldn't be misconstrued as an official Google position)
  321. # [09:24] <jgraham> To be fair all of this is true at Opera as well
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  323. # [09:24] <AryehGregor> It seems to be more true at Mozilla than anywhere.
  324. # [09:24] <annevk> Opera (used to have?) has one person per group that can speak for Opera
  325. # [09:24] <AryehGregor> Since really, there's nobody who *can* give an official position, generally speaking.
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  328. # [09:25] <jgraham> annevk: Right, that person nominally exists, although I guess it is mainly LEB now
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  330. # [09:25] <annevk> though whenever I had that position I rarely did
  331. # [09:26] <jgraham> But in general one should never assume that something you hear from someone at Opera is something official
  332. # [09:26] <jgraham> Unless they say something that makes it obvious
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  334. # [09:28] <jgraham> (most of the time this is a somewhat academic question. If you say something like "we are implementing this" it is obviously de-facto the case that you are speaking for Mozilla/Google/whoever, even if you are not their oficial representative)
  335. # [09:28] <AryehGregor> I think we all understand this, but it's aggravating when you have to deal with people who don't and start interpreting everything you say as official.
  336. # [09:29] <AryehGregor> Shelley Powers isn't around anymore, is she?
  337. # [09:29] <JonathanNeal> How weird, "The menu element is not supported by browsers yet. It would probably be better to wait for implementations." I better not implement it if it hasn't been implemented yet?
  338. # [09:29] <AryehGregor> She would always do that back in the day.
  339. # [09:29] <AryehGregor> "Is that Google's official position?" "No. That's why I said 'I'."
  340. # [09:29] <AryehGregor> JonathanNeal, don't use it in pages if browsers don't support it yet.
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  342. # [09:33] <JonathanNeal> Thanks AryehGregor.
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  346. # [09:36] <JonathanNeal> Would this be semantically acceptable? <nav><a href="/1">Page 1</a> <a href="/2">Page 2</a> <a href="/3">Page 3</a></nav>
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  348. # [09:37] <JonathanNeal> Coming from HTML4, I would think no. But if a <nav> defines a section that contains only navigation links, it seems game.
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  350. # [09:38] <AryehGregor> JonathanNeal, of course it would be. You don't have to mark up every list with a list element.
  351. # [09:39] <AryehGregor> You can say "I like apples, oranges, and pears" without having to do "I like <ul><li>apples<li>oranges<li>pears</ul>" and adding the commas and "and" using CSS.
  352. # [09:40] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@203.196.177.156) (Remote host closed the connection)
  353. # [09:40] <AryehGregor> If you're already using an element for some reason, like a block element for styling, then you should generally use a semantic element instead of <div>/<span>, if one exists that's appropriate.
  354. # [09:40] <AryehGregor> But you don't have to gratuitously add elements that you don't need.
  355. # [09:41] <AryehGregor> Same goes for <abbr>, which I never use. You can if you want, but you don't have to use it just because it's there.
  356. # [09:41] <JonathanNeal> How is a browser supposed to "support" <menu> ?
  357. # [09:41] <AryehGregor> Last I heard, they aren't interested.
  358. # [09:41] <SimonSapin> AryehGregor: isn’t the point of <abbr> to have the "long version" in the title attribute?
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  360. # [09:42] <AryehGregor> But here's the spec, with conformance requirements, if you're interested: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/interactive-elements.html#the-menu-element
  361. # [09:42] <AryehGregor> SimonSapin, sure, if you want it. Nothing in the spec requires that you use it.
  362. # [09:42] <AryehGregor> If you do use it, you have to use it according to its semantics, but it's not mandatory.
  363. # [09:43] <JonathanNeal> Yea, I was just there, reading about it. Without a type attribute, it's a kind of list of commands.
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  366. # [09:45] <JonathanNeal> Not sure how liberal or conservative one is to take "commands". Are they UI commands, application commands, or commands related to the section or document, like a "best viewing" link under a video?
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  368. # [09:46] <AryehGregor> JonathanNeal, don't use it until browsers support it. Otherwise your page will break when they do support it, because it will behave differently.
  369. # [09:47] <AryehGregor> Once browsers support it, decide if you need it based on functionality.
  370. # [09:47] <AryehGregor> Don't use semantics for the sake of semantics.
  371. # [09:47] <JonathanNeal> What behavior would they add. There's no behavior in the spec that seems to be troubling.
  372. # [09:47] <AryehGregor> (I've heard browsers aren't interested in supporting it)
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  375. # [09:51] <annevk> JonathanNeal: I use <nav><a>... </nav> on my site
  376. # [09:51] <annevk> fwiw
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  379. # [09:51] <JonathanNeal> Should I have multiple <nav> in a section?
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  382. # [10:05] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: if IE10 have implemented the spec, why should the rest of us not follow suit?
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  384. # [10:07] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, for one thing, we aren't sure it's web-compatible.
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  386. # [10:07] <AryehGregor> IE has the option of falling back to a compatibility mode if the page doesn't work, which other browsers don't, so they can be relatively aggressive in matching specs.
  387. # [10:07] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: opera and webkit already seem to expose HTMLDocument members everywhere
  388. # [10:07] <AryehGregor> That's not the same issue.
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  390. # [10:08] <AryehGregor> I mean, it's conceptually related, but compat-wise it's not.
  391. # [10:08] <zcorpan> true
  392. # [10:08] <AryehGregor> In any case, the spec matches no one but IE10.
  393. # [10:08] <zcorpan> what should happen for documents when there's no mime type (e.g. createDocument)?
  394. # [10:09] <AryehGregor> And IE10 has the code for its old mode of operation still lying around, so they can reduce codepaths if we go back to the IE9/Gecko/WebKit way.
  395. # [10:09] <AryehGregor> I didn't test that last night, I'll do so today.
  396. # [10:09] <AryehGregor> I volunteer to do all the testing, write and commit the spec, and write and commit tests.
  397. # [10:09] <AryehGregor> As long as no one objects.
  398. # [10:12] <zcorpan> i think it's sad to not try to implement the current spec. i mean, it's not clear that it's *not* compatible
  399. # [10:12] <AryehGregor> Why don't we spend our implementation efforts on things that matter more?
  400. # [10:13] <AryehGregor> Who honestly cares what namespace is produced by document.implementation.createDocument(null, "", null).createElement("x")?
  401. # [10:13] <AryehGregor> Let's try to do something worthwhile, like get rid of XSLT.
  402. # [10:13] <AryehGregor> I agree entirely that we should simplify where possible, but not if all major implementations agree.
  403. # [10:13] <AryehGregor> Unless it's something we really want to change.
  404. # [10:13] <AryehGregor> Like maybe Attr inheriting from Node or something.
  405. # [10:14] <annevk> zcorpan: why did Opera change to MIME type?
  406. # [10:14] <zcorpan> annevk: don't know
  407. # [10:15] <zcorpan> annevk: i've pushed for implementing the spec, but it hasn't happened yet
  408. # [10:15] <annevk> yeah, keeping different kind of documents around is just sad
  409. # [10:15] * jonlee_ is now known as jonlee|afk
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  411. # [10:17] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  412. # [10:17] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: what namespace should be used for new Document().createElement('x') ?
  413. # [10:18] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, whatever we want, because that was just made up like five minutes ago and no one implements it, right?
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  415. # [10:18] <AryehGregor> Let me test create(HTML)Document() first and I'll get back to you.
  416. # [10:18] <zcorpan> ok
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  424. # [10:35] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Yeah, getting rid of XSLT isn't going to happen
  425. # [10:45] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: note that changing the xmlns attribute dynamically doesn't change the root element's namespace
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  427. # [10:45] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: you'd have to swap out the element with a new one
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  430. # [10:46] <jgraham> Seriously, can someone please fix the bugmail to be plain text by default again?
  431. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> hmm
  432. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> I can
  433. # [10:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: I agree my use of “our” was bad. :-(
  434. # [10:48] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1838
  435. # [10:49] <hsivonen> jgraham: however, if you read it really carefully, “our” presents a WHATWG problem, so there’s no “our” introducing any HTML WG-scoped opinion
  436. # [10:50] <hsivonen> jgraham: there is use of “we” nearby where “we” refers to the HTML WG
  437. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> fekking bugzilla should make the bugmail format an user option
  438. # [10:52] <hsivonen> am I the only one here who likes the new bugmail format?
  439. # [10:54] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@office.oslo.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  440. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I don't mind it beacuse I see it in plain text still anyway
  441. # [10:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: I don't think the fact that it isn't a point about the HTMLWG per-se is very relevant.
  442. # [10:56] <jgraham> hsivonen: But probably it has now been discussed more than merited over the choice of one word in an email.
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  445. # [11:01] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah i love the xml-stylesheet bug
  446. # [11:01] <zcorpan> such irony
  447. # [11:01] * Joins: ^esc (~esc_ape@178.115.248.100.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  448. # [11:03] <zcorpan> annevk: i had to take out all UA conf requirements and i had to fight to have the authoring conf requirements in there
  449. # [11:03] <zcorpan> annevk: if the xml wg had their way, the spec wouldn't have any requirements at all
  450. # [11:05] <zcorpan> but at least we managed to get CONSENSUS in the end and publish a new REC, and that's what really matters
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  453. # [11:08] <hsivonen> case. still a problem: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=800600
  454. # [11:11] * zcorpan recalls http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Video_type_parameters
  455. # [11:13] <Stevef__> hsivonen: i like it too, find it much easier to read
  456. # [11:13] <zcorpan> how does one post on w3cmemes?
  457. # [11:14] <paul_irish> i think you talk to annevk or sgalineau
  458. # [11:14] * darobin whacks paul_irish with the secret handshake handbook
  459. # [11:14] <Stevef__> hsivonen: also responded to your post about the 'plan' didn't touch most of your comments, leave that to the lawmakers
  460. # [11:14] <zcorpan> annevk: ^
  461. # [11:14] <annevk> give me a sec
  462. # [11:15] <paul_irish> i'm just guessing based on the activity i see there :) no insider knowledge!
  463. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> wtf the eu got a nobel prize
  464. # [11:15] <annevk> paul_irish: you want the ability to post?
  465. # [11:15] <paul_irish> yesplz
  466. # [11:16] <annevk> MikeSmith: they should get one for privacy (well, when compared to the US)
  467. # [11:16] <darobin> MikeSmith: someone had to thank it before it disintegrates...
  468. # [11:16] <annevk> but there's no Nobel prize for that
  469. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> I'm pretty sure who posts the w3cmemes stuff is this guy: http://i.imgur.com/xADuy.jpg
  470. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> but not sure how to contact him
  471. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> sorry, I meant the guy in that picture is now the one who decides on all the nobel peace prizes
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  474. # [11:22] <jgraham> Man, if you keep up all this memes stuff W3C will never get the Nobel Peace Prize it so obviously deserves
  475. # [11:23] <Stevef__> darobin: getting 404 on http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/spec.html ?
  476. # [11:23] * Joins: silverroots (~silverroo@144.187.148.27)
  477. # [11:23] <jgraham> Stevef__: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/
  478. # [11:23] <darobin> Stevef__: it's looking like there's a problem in the update script
  479. # [11:24] <Stevef__> ok thanks
  480. # [11:24] <darobin> I'm seeing very strange problems with our tools in general in fact
  481. # [11:24] <darobin> we're on it
  482. # [11:25] * Quits: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@111-250-46-39.dynamic.hinet.net) (Client Quit)
  483. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> by "we're on it" darobin means that I create the strange problems and he finds ways to fix them
  484. # [11:25] <darobin> oh no that's not true
  485. # [11:25] <darobin> we both create strange problems :)
  486. # [11:25] <darobin> just not the same ones
  487. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> we're innovating!
  488. # [11:26] <darobin> yeah, HTML has too many solutions so we're building new problems
  489. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> taking it way out of the box
  490. # [11:27] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@61-91-65-163.static.asianet.co.th)
  491. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> the only way I could have constructed a worse document build setup would have been to add some RDF stuff in there
  492. # [11:28] <darobin> oooh great idea, let's do that!
  493. # [11:28] <jgraham> There *isn't* RDF?
  494. # [11:29] <jgraham> That is, in all seriousness, actually mildly surprising :)
  495. # [11:29] <darobin> jgraham: there will be when I'm done with it!
  496. # [11:29] <darobin> I think we should rewrite the algorithms in RDF so they're machine readable
  497. # [11:30] <jgraham> darobin: Well if anything gets to /TR/ then there will be RDF output at least, right?
  498. # [11:30] <darobin> besides, if there's a document suite in which adding a few namespace declarations won't be noticeable it's this one
  499. # [11:30] <darobin> jgraham: oh yeah, there's a script that builds tr.rdf
  500. # [11:30] * darobin not sure if anyone uses that
  501. # [11:30] <darobin> but we don't get to touch it, the webmaster does
  502. # [11:31] <zcorpan> we should use RDF for all xrefs. then we don't even need to generate the xref links, it'll all just work
  503. # [11:31] <darobin> in fact, I don't know if the webmaster touches it, it just gets generated
  504. # [11:31] <darobin> I'm also a bit appalled at how this spec doesn't even use XML Schema
  505. # [11:31] <darobin> I mean it's a vocabulary — what better solution is there?
  506. # [11:31] <darobin> that plus some WSDL to replace WebIDL and my work here is done
  507. # [11:32] <darobin> I'll be finished WAAAAY before 2014
  508. # [11:32] * jgraham can't even find a link to the rdf data
  509. # [11:33] <annevk> zcorpan: heh
  510. # [11:33] <jgraham> Which I thought was ironic, but then I realised that I should have a autonomous UA that can crawl the web of linked data to do that for me
  511. # [11:33] * jgraham discovers that Google in in fact such a UA
  512. # [11:34] <jgraham> http://www.w3.org/2002/01/tr-automation/tr.rdf
  513. # [11:36] <darobin> jgraham: I wonder if anyone ever actually checks that
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  515. # [11:39] <annevk> zcorpan: the heh was actually in response to the meme, but it works here too I see
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  530. # [12:25] <darobin> I'm getting confused — where is the latest and greatest version of Anolis?
  531. # [12:26] * Quits: silverroots (~silverroo@144.187.148.27) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  532. # [12:26] <darobin> ah, found it
  533. # [12:26] <darobin> it would be good to update gsnedders's site with the latest pointer
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  540. # [12:33] <annevk> fantasai: hey, you there?
  541. # [12:33] <annevk> fantasai: I have these two encodings that when used with a slightly different name affect bidi
  542. # [12:34] <annevk> fantasai: I am guessing that should be defined in writing-modes, since it does not just affect HTML
  543. # [12:34] <annevk> fantasai: it's iso-8859-6 versus iso-8859-6-i and iso-8859-8 versus iso-8859-8-i
  544. # [12:34] <annevk> fantasai: hmm, I'm guessing you're asleep
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  548. # [12:41] <annevk> If anyone else knows where in Gecko or WebKit the above is handled, please let me know!
  549. # [12:44] <annevk> WebKit has stuff like getPropertyValue("-webkit-rtl-ordering") == "logical"
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  626. # [12:52] <annevk> heh, -webkit-rtl-ordering yields no results on Google
  627. # [12:52] <annevk> beverloo`: ^^ might be something for that table of yours?
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  707. # [12:55] <annevk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO-8859-8 seems like complete bullshit
  708. # [12:56] <annevk> great
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  714. # [12:59] <hsivonen> annevk: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/ident?i=IBMBIDI_TEXTTYPE_VISUAL
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  717. # [13:00] <hsivonen> annevk: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/base/nsPresContext.cpp#174
  718. # [13:01] <annevk> so it does not happen for iso-8859-6?
  719. # [13:01] <annevk> haven't tested that actually
  720. # [13:01] <hsivonen> annevk: I suggest testing
  721. # [13:02] <annevk> can't get the text to reverse using the same bytes as I used for -8
  722. # [13:02] <annevk> so this is only for iso-8859-8 versus iso-8859-i
  723. # [13:03] <annevk> however, Gecko does not treat them as labels for each other
  724. # [13:04] <hsivonen> annevk: maybe visual Arabic didn’t get popular, because it would be rather silly to have Arabic shaping support without ordering support and the result would look very wrong without shaping support
  725. # [13:04] <annevk> iso-8859-6-i is distinct from iso-8859-6-i somehow
  726. # [13:04] <annevk> from iso-8859-6 doh
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  730. # [13:05] <hsivonen> the problem with 386 in Wikipedia is that expertise disqualifies you from editing
  731. # [13:06] <annevk> oh that's okay, some non-expert can quote my spec later
  732. # [13:07] <hsivonen> annevk: iso-8859-6-i is for email only in Gecko
  733. # [13:07] <hsivonen> annevk: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/intl/uconv/src/charsetData.properties#31
  734. # [13:08] <annevk> but it's exposed somehow; e.g. unsupported labels get normalized away, this one stays
  735. # [13:08] <annevk> try entering it in http://dump.testsuite.org/encoding/label-test.html to see what I mean
  736. # [13:09] <hsivonen> adobe-symbol-encoding.LangGroup = el // wow
  737. # [13:09] <hsivonen> annevk: ghosts of things that are banned in charsetData.properties leak to browser charset alias handling, IIRC
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  740. # [13:11] <annevk> other browsers e.g. treat the -e stuff as label for the non -e/-i stuff
  741. # [13:11] <annevk> In Opera csiso88598e gives iso-8859-8 but in Gecko it's iso-8859-8-e
  742. # [13:11] <hsivonen> x-sun-unicode-india-0
  743. # [13:11] <hsivonen> weird stuff
  744. # [13:12] <annevk> Gecko has a lot of things nobody else has I think
  745. # [13:12] <hsivonen> whatever IBM contributed
  746. # [13:16] <annevk> ah so in Safari iso-8859-6-i gives iso-8859-6
  747. # [13:16] <annevk> okay so lets only make iso-8859-8 crazy
  748. # [13:21] <zcorpan> Hixie_: shouldn't https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15133 be RESOLVED FIXED?
  749. # [13:21] <annevk> thanks hsivonen!
  750. # [13:21] <annevk> hsivonen: seems you were not listed in the acknowledgments yet o_O
  751. # [13:27] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, oh, thanks for the pointer. That makes sense -- the namespace of an element can't change, any more than its tag can.
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  753. # [13:34] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, expertise doesn't disqualify you from editing, it just doesn't per se give you more authority than anyone else.
  754. # [13:34] <AryehGregor> (which may also be a problem, but it's not the same thing)
  755. # [13:35] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: expertise tends to come with COI
  756. # [13:35] <AryehGregor> You're allowed to edit if you have COI, last I checked.
  757. # [13:35] <hsivonen> ok
  758. # [13:35] <AryehGregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:COI
  759. # [13:35] <AryehGregor> "This page in a nutshell: Do not edit Wikipedia to promote your own interests, or those of other individuals or of organizations, including employers. Do not write about these things unless you are certain that a neutral editor would agree that your edits improve Wikipedia."
  760. # [13:37] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should add a COI statement about my Mozilla and standards activities to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hsivonen
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  768. # [14:02] <annevk> Filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19505 on CSS saying something about this encoding
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  771. # [14:05] <annevk> hsivonen: for you: http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/28235174.jpg
  772. # [14:12] <jgraham> "Browser implementors are participating in responsive images." - yeah, and Sam somehow avoided the carnage that occurred when the people working on it went from "no browser feedback" to "browser feedback"
  773. # [14:13] <odinho> :-)
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  780. # [14:28] <zcorpan> hober: i think lxml is used because html5lib it too slow
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  790. # [14:47] <odinho> Think I did something like try: lxml.parse(bla) except: html5lib.parse() once. Fallback to html5lib when lxml fails.
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  795. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> I have other problems with html5lib in my Debian environment when trying to get it parse the HTML spec without failing
  796. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> different various weird fatal errors that I've not been able to figure out
  797. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> and as far as the slowness, it's not just a little bit slower -- it's like 10 times slower
  798. # [14:56] <jgraham> Yeah, it is
  799. # [14:56] <jgraham> Python is not really made for this kind of task
  800. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> yup
  801. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> maybe we should use phantom.js instead
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  803. # [14:57] <jgraham> That's another way of saying "any browser and webdriver", right?
  804. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> for anolis and splitting
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  806. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> write it all in JS
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  808. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> could do in node instead but phantom.js already has a performant HTML parser and DOM
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  810. # [15:06] <zcorpan> annevk: y u no post ur meme to w3cmemes?
  811. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah could be any browser and webdriver I guess. I'm just used to using phantom.js
  812. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> I wonder if the HTML bugmail is more accessible than the plain text
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  814. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> I would think it'd have to be
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  816. # [15:09] <annevk> zcorpan: the one above? could do I guess
  817. # [15:09] <annevk> i'm lazy
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  824. # [15:29] <darobin> MikeSmith: in phantom.js the weird thing is the communication between the browser context and the primary script context
  825. # [15:29] <darobin> I would be shocked if we tried to use that and didn't trigger problems :)
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  827. # [15:31] <darobin> and using jsdom from Node is unlikely to be all that good; apart from having trouble parsing some correct HTML5 it takes ~10min on my MBP to run https://github.com/w3c/html/blob/heartbeat-201210/scripts/minimal-pubrules.js
  828. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> darobin: yeah that's in line with what I found last time I tried to use jsdom
  829. # [15:33] <darobin> it may be that I could make it faster by not using jquery atop jsdom :)
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  833. # [15:35] <darobin> jsdom also has this cool bug where it parses <a href=http://berjon.com/>robin</a> as <a href=http://berjon.com></a>robin
  834. # [15:35] <darobin> (note the trailing slash in the attribute value)
  835. # [15:35] <odinho> Ah, helpful xmlism :P
  836. # [15:35] <Ms2ger> Does it support <foo/bar/ for <foo>bar</foo>?
  837. # [15:36] <darobin> I can tell you that it took me a while to figure out why the fuck some links broke and not others...
  838. # [15:36] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: is that xml or sgml?
  839. # [15:36] <Ms2ger> SGML
  840. # [15:36] <darobin> Ms2ger: I doubt its SGML support is that good
  841. # [15:36] <Ms2ger> Aww
  842. # [15:36] <darobin> I don't think it does </> either :)
  843. # [15:36] <odinho> Ms2ger: Do anyone support that?
  844. # [15:36] <darobin> it's supposed to be HTML5 happy :)
  845. # [15:37] <Ms2ger> odinho, SGML parsers presumably do
  846. # [15:37] <Ms2ger> But then again, I've never seen one of those
  847. # [15:37] <darobin> odinho: SP does
  848. # [15:37] <darobin> there was only ever one
  849. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> that HTML parser is node is a one-person project I think
  850. # [15:37] <darobin> yeah it looks like it
  851. # [15:38] <darobin> it also has a weird interface
  852. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> SP does?
  853. # [15:38] <darobin> jsdom
  854. # [15:38] <darobin> (but SP too)
  855. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> heh
  856. # [15:38] <darobin> but on the plus side it runs scripts, which means you can get results for document.write()
  857. # [15:38] <darobin> not sure if they're correct though
  858. # [15:38] <Ms2ger> Plus side?
  859. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> hah
  860. # [15:39] <darobin> (and of course they fail for anything that isn't document.write or basic JS)
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  862. # [15:39] <darobin> Ms2ger: it scared the shit out of me once when I was using it to spider content and I saw "Error: alert is not a function" in my log
  863. # [15:39] <darobin> thankfully it runs them in a sandbox
  864. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> friends the bugzilla guru from the systems team points out that there is a user pref for bugmail format
  865. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/userprefs.cgi
  866. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> last option on that page
  867. # [15:41] * Joins: izhak (~izhak@31.47.125.67)
  868. # [15:41] <Ms2ger> People didn't know that? :)
  869. # [15:41] <zcorpan> why does MDN reference TR/ specs?
  870. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: I didn't know that
  871. # [15:41] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, silly people
  872. # [15:41] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, it's a Mozilla products, there are prefs for everything
  873. # [15:41] <Ms2ger> *product
  874. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: it should be on the "Email preferences" page
  875. # [15:42] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: is there a bug about changing it?
  876. # [15:42] <darobin> MikeSmith: did you read the part about it being a Mozilla product?
  877. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> heh
  878. # [15:42] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, not that I know of
  879. # [15:42] <odinho> bugs.example.com/about:config
  880. # [15:42] <darobin> the only preferences that are categorised with any logic are in about:config
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  882. # [15:49] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=800902
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  885. # [15:52] <annevk> MikeSmith: it should be set to Text I think for the mailing lists
  886. # [15:53] <annevk> and yeah, why it's not under email preferences...
  887. # [15:53] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@89.143.12.238)
  888. # [15:56] <darobin> MikeSmith, buddy, next time you see me using a nice, long, descriptive branch name like "heartbeat-201210" can you please shoot me?
  889. # [15:58] * Joins: thisgeek (~chris@cpe-204-210-135-55.hvc.res.rr.com)
  890. # [15:58] <annevk> W3C and their idea of putting dates in things
  891. # [15:58] <annevk> party like it's '99 with XHTML
  892. # [15:59] <Ms2ger> Dates make sense to me for dated snapshots
  893. # [15:59] * Quits: thisgeek (~chris@cpe-204-210-135-55.hvc.res.rr.com) (Client Quit)
  894. # [15:59] <Ms2ger> Now, dated snapshots are silly, of course
  895. # [16:00] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
  896. # [16:00] <annevk> but but but patents!
  897. # [16:00] * Joins: thisgeek (~chris@cpe-204-210-135-55.hvc.res.rr.com)
  898. # [16:02] <darobin> bah, you're just jealous because I get more dates than you do
  899. # [16:04] <jgraham> Mmm, dates
  900. # [16:04] <gsnedders> darobin: Yes, updating it with some link would be useful. :)
  901. # [16:04] <jgraham> Must be nearly Christmas
  902. # [16:04] <gsnedders> Ms2ger's bitbucket the recommended link nowadays?
  903. # [16:05] <darobin> gsnedders: yeah that would be sweet, as it's still what comes first in Google by far
  904. # [16:05] <annevk> jgraham: 19 days
  905. # [16:05] <jgraham> Haha
  906. # [16:05] <darobin> I reckon it's Ms2ger's — jgraham's hasn't changed since 2010
  907. # [16:05] <jgraham> Not mine for sure
  908. # [16:06] <darobin> it's back from when jgraham used hg
  909. # [16:06] <gsnedders> Same with me. :)
  910. # [16:07] <zewt> heh i thought the bugmail to the lists was hard to read, being monospaced ... then i went to work and read one there, where i don't have my minimum-forced-font-size set up, and found it's actually 0.001pt monospace and an order of magnitude worse than I imagined
  911. # [16:10] <gsnedders> darobin: Better now? :)
  912. # [16:10] <darobin> gsnedders: you're a sweetie
  913. # [16:10] * gsnedders bats eyelids
  914. # [16:11] * jgraham needs therapy now
  915. # [16:11] <gsnedders> jgraham: Look, I know I don't update webpages, but…
  916. # [16:12] <zewt> ow my eyelids
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  932. # [16:43] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i'm told you're the go-to for getting new tests synced up on w3c-test.org. i has tests here: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/quirks-mode/file/3397c5f9ad8d/tests
  933. # [16:43] <Stevef__> feedback on this <maincontent> appreciated https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-extensions/raw-file/3acee7f50663/maincontent/index.html
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  936. # [16:45] <zcorpan> Stevef__: i don't understand the Contexts in which this element can be used
  937. # [16:46] <zcorpan> "child of 0 or more div elements" in particular
  938. # [16:46] <zcorpan> how can an element be a child of 0 div elements? or more than 1 div elements?
  939. # [16:47] * toyoshim is now known as toyoshiAw
  940. # [16:47] <Stevef__> zcorpan: what I am attempting to do limit its use so it is not allowed inside nav/header/article etc
  941. # [16:48] * toyoshiAw is now known as toyoshim
  942. # [16:48] <Stevef__> zcorpan: will try to make it clearer
  943. # [16:48] <zcorpan> Stevef__: it seems better in that case to ban the elements you don't want as ancestors
  944. # [16:49] <zcorpan> Stevef__: e.g. i don't see why <form> should be banned
  945. # [16:49] <Stevef__> zcorpan: thanks will rework it
  946. # [16:49] <Stevef__> zcorpan: yes you are right
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  950. # [16:55] <Stevef__> zcorpan: "Flow content, but with no article, aside, footer, header or nav element ancestors." any better?
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  955. # [16:59] <zcorpan> Stevef__: shouldn't it be under Contexts in which this element can be used?
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  958. # [16:59] <Stevef__> zcorpan: am putting it there
  959. # [17:00] * toyoshiAw is now known as toyoshim
  960. # [17:00] <Stevef__> zcorpan: based wording on http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/the-footer-element.html#the-footer-element
  961. # [17:01] <zcorpan> Stevef__: that says "Where flow content is expected."
  962. # [17:01] <Stevef__> zcorpan: oh right yes, ok back to drawing board
  963. # [17:01] <zcorpan> so "Where flow content is expected, but with no article, ... ancestors"
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  966. # [17:03] <Stevef__> zcorpan: right thanks again
  967. # [17:03] <zcorpan> and separately a requirement saying "There must not be more than one maincontent element in the document" or so
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  969. # [17:06] <zcorpan> Stevef__: shouldn't the keyboard nav thing be part of the aria spec for "main" instead?
  970. # [17:07] <zcorpan> (also i guess <maincontent></maincontent><div role=main></div> should also be disallowed? what does aria say?)
  971. # [17:08] <Stevef__> zcorpan: have to think on those
  972. # [17:09] <Stevef__> zcorpan: aria says "Within any document or application, the author SHOULD mark no more than one element with the main role"
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  974. # [17:10] <zcorpan> are there any good reasons for violating the should?
  975. # [17:10] <Stevef__> zcorpan: not that I know of
  976. # [17:12] <Stevef__> zcorpan: re the keybaord nav ARIA does not define browser UI requirements
  977. # [17:12] <zcorpan> Stevef__: html usually doesn't, either
  978. # [17:13] <Stevef__> zcorpan: right, thats why its a should, may be better to rephrase it
  979. # [17:14] <Stevef__> zcorpan: encouraged to...
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  981. # [17:19] <annevk> TabAtkins: paul_irish: anyone: http://html5.org/temp/urlquery.txt
  982. # [17:19] <annevk> is that the interface we're thinking about for the query parameter?
  983. # [17:20] <annevk> zewt: ^^
  984. # [17:20] <annevk> not sure my use of sequence is correct btw, always mess that up :/
  985. # [17:21] <zcorpan> always returns an array on getting?
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  987. # [17:21] <annevk> (looks like it's correct)
  988. # [17:21] <annevk> yes
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  992. # [17:26] <annevk> zcorpan: type testing seems more annoying than using [0]
  993. # [17:27] <zcorpan> annevk: ok
  994. # [17:33] <annevk> arv and abarth|gardening: your feedback would be welcome too
  995. # [17:33] * Joins: freddyb (~freddyb@unaffiliated/chosenone)
  996. # [17:34] <freddyb> the current html5 draft says, that iframe sandbox disallows all plugins (and scripts, forms, popups, topnavigation, same-origin access)
  997. # [17:34] <freddyb> but there is no "allow-plugins" keyword defined to remove this restriction, like there is for the other ones
  998. # [17:34] <freddyb> why is that so?
  999. # [17:35] <arv> annevk: I don't like that at all
  1000. # [17:35] <arv> annevk: We are trying hard to not add more things that cannot be expressed in JavaScript to the DOM
  1001. # [17:35] <freddyb> and the second example (the one with src="http://maps.example.com/embedded.html") explicitly says that allow-scripts does *not* remove the plugins restriction
  1002. # [17:35] <annevk> arv: I thought these kind of interfaces can be expressed with proxies?
  1003. # [17:36] <arv> annevk: This is another local storage mess where we are not keeping the interface and the data separate
  1004. # [17:36] <freddyb> oh, and I guess it would have been polite to say hi, sorry.... hi folks :)
  1005. # [17:36] <arv> annevk: Anything can be done with proxies... that is no excuse
  1006. # [17:37] <annevk> arv: why not? they're JavaScript... this is way nicer than a bunch of methods
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  1008. # [17:37] <annevk> freddyb: because plugins don't implement sandboxing
  1009. # [17:37] <arv> annevk: How do you get the number of parameters?
  1010. # [17:37] <arv> annevk: And what happens when someone has a query parameter called "length"?
  1011. # [17:38] <freddyb> annevk: so they'll never listen to the other restrictions in place, and therefore can't be whitelisted on their own?
  1012. # [17:38] <arv> annevk: JS is really crippled in this space... no clean separations between data and interface
  1013. # [17:39] <Ms2ger> freddyb, exactly
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  1015. # [17:39] <freddyb> so, when it says providing the "allow-scripts" and "allow-same-origin" keywords will actually remove all sandbox features, it still doesn't mean that plugins work -- just that using top.location = location.href might escape the sandbox and use plugins *then*?
  1016. # [17:39] <annevk> arv: hmm mkay, refresh?
  1017. # [17:42] <arv> annevk: better imo... needs has, remove too
  1018. # [17:42] <annevk> and length? :-)
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  1020. # [17:44] <arv> annevk: One of the problem with this API compared to the old one is that get always returns a sequence. The common case is that you only have one param of a given name and having to always create a list and then extract the data from the list asks for a better api
  1021. # [17:44] <Stevef__> zcorpan: updated https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-extensions/raw-file/a853b1a55aab/maincontent/index.html thanks again for your feedback.
  1022. # [17:45] <annevk> arv: could do get / getAll similar to querySelector / querySelectorAll
  1023. # [17:45] <arv> annevk: I don't know if length is the right term. Conceptually you want a way to iterate over the items. If you have length then it is expected to have indexed properties
  1024. # [17:46] <arv> annevk: I like it
  1025. # [17:47] <annevk> iteration is usually an item() method
  1026. # [17:47] <annevk> btw, updated the proposal again
  1027. # [17:47] <annevk> thanks for the feedback
  1028. # [17:48] <annevk> e.g. like http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#nodelist
  1029. # [17:48] <Stevef__> MIkeSmith: hi mike how do i get an url for this https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-extensions/raw-file/3acee7f50663/maincontent/index.html that is always the latest version?
  1030. # [17:48] <annevk> has item() / length
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  1034. # [17:49] <annevk> Stevef__: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-extensions/raw-file/tip/maincontent/index.html
  1035. # [17:49] <Stevef__> annevk: thanks
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  1038. # [17:51] <freddyb> thanks, guys :)
  1039. # [17:52] <arv> annevk: One nit. Can we call it delete to match http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=harmony:simple_maps_and_sets
  1040. # [17:52] <annevk> yeah
  1041. # [17:53] <zcorpan> annevk: NodeList also has getter
  1042. # [17:53] <annevk> but only numeric
  1043. # [17:54] <zcorpan> true
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  1045. # [17:56] <odinho> Soo... I have "rebase" for hg. Now someone has pushed something so the origin is different from me. How do I make my 3 local commits rebased on top of origin in hg?
  1046. # [17:56] <arv> I think conceptually we would want an iterator that returns [name, value] (just like Map.prototype.items) but that can be added when engines get there (Gecko is already there... they have iterators for NodeLists and other things)
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  1048. # [17:57] <annevk> arv: okay, so I'll leave it as it is now I suppose
  1049. # [17:57] <annevk> this is already a huge improvement over .search anyway
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  1051. # [17:58] <annevk> and over the longish method name proposal from the older draft, imo
  1052. # [17:58] <odinho> Ah-hah, was easy this time. Getting better at this. Nothing to see here. --
  1053. # [17:59] <annevk> arv: btw, do we really want has()? it's the same as get(name) != null
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  1055. # [17:59] <arv> annevk: good point
  1056. # [17:59] <arv> annevk: leave it out for now in the name of simplicity
  1057. # [17:59] <annevk> yup
  1058. # [18:00] <annevk> thanks for this short session
  1059. # [18:00] <arv> annevk: I guess it was good I never managed to finish the webkit implementation of the old draft
  1060. # [18:01] <annevk> hopefully this one will end up in impls some day :-)
  1061. # [18:01] <annevk> still need to write the text, not sure when I'll get around to that
  1062. # [18:01] <annevk> not tonight
  1063. # [18:02] <annevk> i'll put the IDL in the spec so people can look at it there at least
  1064. # [18:11] <annevk> hmm, arv, everyone on the WHATWG list, including TabAtkins, did go the proxy route
  1065. # [18:11] <annevk> oh well
  1066. # [18:12] <annevk> I'll check this in and seek some more feedback
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  1071. # [18:24] <Hixie_> freddyb: there's no allow-plugins yet because plugins don't support being told to be sandboxed yet
  1072. # [18:24] <Hixie_> freddyb: oh i see anne already replied, don't mind me
  1073. # [18:26] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, we never do, don't worry :)
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  1086. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> annevk: What's "the proxy route"?
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  1092. # [18:58] <annevk> TabAtkins: to implement getter/setter/deleter/creator you need JavaScript proxies
  1093. # [18:58] <annevk> TabAtkins: arv didn't like it and I seem to recall Brendan Eich also not liking ele.dataset / localStroage
  1094. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> Oh, ok. Things like that are so useful, though!
  1095. # [18:59] <annevk> TabAtkins: I'm kinda ambivalent myself
  1096. # [19:00] <arv> TabAtkins: TC39 are opposed to adding more things that require proxies
  1097. # [19:00] <arv> TabAtkins: The long term plan is to extend the language to allow separating [] from general property lookup
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  1104. # [19:01] <annevk> arv: I have to agree it's kinda sucky though, especially when there are no conflicts
  1105. # [19:02] <annevk> arv: .query["x"] = "yada" is way more beautiful
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  1109. # [19:03] <arv> annevk: I'm completely with you on that
  1110. # [19:04] <annevk> TabAtkins: I guess the one you can't have with proxies is the get/getAll design, you'd just have a getter that always returns an array
  1111. # [19:04] <arv> and you can't have any methods on the object either
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  1113. # [19:04] <arv> that is why localstorage fails so badly
  1114. # [19:05] <annevk> arv: looking at that map design you pointed to earlier, that does seem kinda fitting here
  1115. # [19:05] <annevk> but I'm not gonna say I can predict the future (although we could put new methods on URLUtils instead)
  1116. # [19:08] <annevk> the hard part here for me is going to be the algorithms; hopefully the mailing list bikesheds the API into shape :-)
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  1119. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> annevk: If you do go with methods rather than proxies, using has() is good just because it parallels the proper Map API. Gratuitous differences are bad - people would be constantly tripped up by the lack, I think.
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  1162. # [19:27] * gsnedders wonders what __proto__ does on localStorage in old JSC/Carakan.
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  1171. # [19:38] <annevk> TabAtkins: dunno, I almost never saw hasAttribute() used myself
  1172. # [19:38] <annevk> mostly people just do getAttribute(x) != null
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  1187. # [20:03] <TabAtkins> annevk: Interesting. When I'm using maps in other languages, I use has() for existing testing. Short and clearer.
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  1209. # [20:28] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Other languages tend not to return null when you try to get a missing value though
  1210. # [20:28] <jgraham> Although I would use has even if they did
  1211. # [20:28] <jgraham> Well maybe some do, I guess
  1212. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Yeah, it varies.
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  1214. # [20:30] <jgraham> Wow, go returns the zero value for the map type
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  1217. # [20:31] <TabAtkins> What's the "zero value" in this context?
  1218. # [20:31] <jgraham> Oh, but there is also an error parameter
  1219. # [20:31] <jgraham> or return value I guess
  1220. # [20:31] <jgraham> If you have a map of string->int, say it's 0
  1221. # [20:31] <jgraham> I imagine for string->string it's ""
  1222. # [20:31] <TabAtkins> Okay, so default value.
  1223. # [20:32] <TabAtkins> I was wondering if go maps are monoidal by default or something.
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  1232. # [20:36] <jgraham> rust seems to require you to check upfront
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  1235. # [20:38] * GPHemsley pokes the WONTFIX bear.
  1236. # [20:38] <jgraham> odinho: You do hg pull --rebase and then hg deletes all your data
  1237. # [20:38] <jgraham> (or something)
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  1276. # [21:04] <annevk> TabAtkins: yeah I guess if you can do "x" in y that would be nice
  1277. # [21:04] <annevk> TabAtkins: I kinda thing we should make this a proper map
  1278. # [21:04] <annevk> TabAtkins: but I'll see what people come up with on the mailing list
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  1335. # [21:17] <na8ur> hi; there's no free posting anymore? I hadn't been here for ages, but abstract .. and cupid aka chris h. are guys who build me up? . how to get some voice. but besides I don't have questions at the moment.. just wondering
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  1358. # [21:28] * toyoshim is now known as toyoshiAw
  1359. # [21:29] <TabAtkins> That's an interesting markov generator example.
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  1370. # [21:34] <na8ur> my studies in physics are more than 20years .. over.. :) wuuhh.. also ages ago
  1371. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> Yup, definitely a Markov bot.
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  1374. # [21:35] * GPHemsley wonders about the influx from irccloud.com
  1375. # [21:36] <na8ur> :) hehe
  1376. # [21:36] * GPHemsley then notices the few that are connected via IPv6 and is impressed.
  1377. # [21:37] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: I'd like to request a wiki account, when you get a chance.
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  1379. # [21:37] <na8ur> getting closer: http://eflorenzano.com/blog/2008/11/16/writing-markov-chain-irc-bot-twisted-and-python/ thx.. but I never did bots .. just my girl :)
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  1409. # [22:00] <annevk> GPHemsley: I can get you one, pm username/email
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  1411. # [22:00] <GPHemsley> annevk: Oh, I didn't see you here, for some reason.
  1412. # [22:03] * annevk goes back into hiding
  1413. # [22:03] <GPHemsley> :P
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  1466. # Session Close: Sat Oct 13 00:00:00 2012

The end :)