/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-10-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Oct 13 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  4. # [00:00] <gsnedders> Has anyone experimented with replacing the locale-dependent character encoding guess with something based on public suffixes?
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  15. # [00:14] <zewt> "public suffixes"?
  16. # [00:15] <gsnedders> As in the public suffix list.
  17. # [00:15] <zewt> sorry, but suffixes of what?
  18. # [00:15] <gsnedders> http://publicsuffix.org/
  19. # [00:15] <gsnedders> 'A "public suffix" is one under which Internet users can directly register names. Some examples of public suffixes are .com, .co.uk and pvt.k12.wy.us. '
  20. # [00:15] <zewt> ... you mean TLD? heh
  21. # [00:16] <gsnedders> It's not always the YLD.
  22. # [00:16] <gsnedders> *TLD
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  25. # [00:16] <gsnedders> co.uk isn't a TLD, for example
  26. # [00:16] <zewt> i doubt co.uk and or.uk or whatever it is will have different language tendencies :)
  27. # [00:17] <gsnedders> No, but I can imagine that's not true everywhere.
  28. # [00:17] <zewt> while it'd be awesome if some non-system-dependent heuristic could replace the locale setting, i have a hard time seeing browsers ever doing it, since it's guaranteed to break lots of pages that work for their actual audience today :(
  29. # [00:18] * linclark is now known as linclark|afk
  30. # [00:18] <gsnedders> You basically need to add some telemetry in to get what encodings are being used for what pubsuffixes, when it's fallen through to locale-checking. I expect quite a few will be quite clear-cut.
  31. # [00:19] <zewt> the trouble is that any change to this is likely to change eg. "+++++++---" (where + is a correct guess and - is wrong) to "+++++-+++-"
  32. # [00:20] <gsnedders> Indeed. :(
  33. # [00:20] <jwalden> gsnedders: what would be guessed for .ch?
  34. # [00:20] <zewt> and those wrong guesses that you just fixed were ones nobody cared about (or else they'd have been fixed by the author)
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  36. # [00:20] <zewt> so you end up fixing things nobody (-ish) cares about, and breaking ones people do
  37. # [00:20] <gsnedders> jwalden: That's the hard case I was thinking about
  38. # [00:20] <jwalden> heh
  39. # [00:21] <zewt> (having many times loaded japanese pages in browsers and had mojibake vomited upon me, i can claim myself of one of that -ish)
  40. # [00:22] <gsnedders> jwalden: Though .tw and .ch are separate, and zh-CH has GB18030, but dunno how much content overlaps between the two.
  41. # [00:22] <gsnedders> 台湾 and 台灣 should help in telling the two apart, I'd hope, though. :)
  42. # [00:22] <zewt> i think encoding heuristics could do a decent job (with TLD as one input to that heuristic), but it'll still run into the same basic problem
  43. # [00:23] <jwalden> gsnedders: erm, am I misremembering .ch as Switzerland (equal parts German, French, Italian as I remember)? sounds like you're thinking of .zh
  44. # [00:23] <gsnedders> Bleh! I meant .zh!
  45. # [00:23] <zewt> (where other inputs would be "number of bytes that failed to decode" and language pattern heuristics; I think some browsers do do some of that, not sure when or which)
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  47. # [00:23] <gsnedders> jwalden: German/French equal, Italian smaller, and even less Romansh.
  48. # [00:24] <jwalden> okay, my memory's not quite right, but close enough for purposes of this discussion :-)
  49. # [00:24] <gsnedders> (Only one canton where any notable amount of Romansh is spoken)
  50. # [00:25] <zewt> i still think browsers should just force any page without a charset declaration to comic sans
  51. # [00:25] <gsnedders> jwalden: Basically all the locales on the spec suggested list corrospond nicely to countries, though, at least.
  52. # [00:27] <zewt> is .ca a mix of en+fr?
  53. # [00:29] <gsnedders> Neither en/fr have anything but the standard Windows-1252.
  54. # [00:29] <zewt> "standard" heh
  55. # [00:30] <zewt> i sort of wish we'd give up pretending that anyone uses real iso-8859-1 and just fold the windows cp characters into it for real
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  58. # [00:31] <zewt> i wish we could get a bit of browser collusion on this problem
  59. # [00:31] <zewt> get every browser to make a breaking change simultaneously :P
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  186. # [06:19] <Yuhong> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4629698
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  224. # [10:18] <annevk> zewt: you around?
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  232. # [10:54] <sedovsek> annevk: There are some photos of you I took at Fronteers 2012, http://www.flickr.com/photos/seddy/sets/72157631731160840/
  233. # [10:54] <annevk> sedovsek: heh, thanks
  234. # [10:56] <annevk> must be a pretty nice camera
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  236. # [10:58] <sedovsek> This is like complimenting a cook with "you must have some nice cans and pots", but yea… i guess it is. :P
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  242. # [11:04] <annevk> sedovsek: :-)
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  253. # [11:19] <hsivonen> huh? for .ch, you'd guess windows-1252. what's hard about that?
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  255. # [11:21] <hsivonen> there is no .zh TLD, is there?
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  257. # [11:29] <hsivonen> I think I'm interested in developing a Gecko feature that with the flip of a boolean about:config pref would replace guessing based on the Firefox localization with guessing based on the content TLD
  258. # [11:30] <hsivonen> it would be a hard fight to change the default though
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  264. # [11:42] <annevk> apparently WebKit has almost no sniffing algorithm btw and is not planning on changing that
  265. # [11:42] <annevk> that's why I kinda gave up on defining encoding sniffing for now
  266. # [11:43] <annevk> ap argued that what Gecko had was not needed
  267. # [11:43] <annevk> (there's no .zh)
  268. # [11:45] <annevk> just found out they're gonna delete even more ccTLDs
  269. # [11:45] <annevk> ".an .su .tp" are next
  270. # [11:47] <j_wright> makes sense
  271. # [11:48] <annevk> not really http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html
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  273. # [11:55] <annevk> .nl is one of the largest ccTLD; just imagine if a couple of decades from now we're no longer independent but part of the EU, would kinda suck imo if all my links broke
  274. # [12:04] <hsivonen> .ax is not independent but they have a "country" TLD
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  278. # [12:13] <hsivonen> I'm more worried about US agencies seizing domain under generic TLDs than about European TLDs going away because of the EU turning into a federal state
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  282. # [12:36] <hsivonen> so if Firefox, Chrome and Opera support SPDY, what good can come out of the IETF making something incompatible?
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  287. # [12:59] <annevk> IETF crowning it as "theirs"?
  288. # [13:08] <hsivonen> how likeöy is it that IETF would just crown SPDY? the IETF has stakeholders whose products SPDY treats as adversaries
  289. # [13:09] <hsivonen> i.e. products that are in the intercept business
  290. # [13:09] <hsivonen> s/likeöy/likely/
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  293. # [13:25] <Velmont> There's also the upgrade mechanism if it will get used. -- Many features has not been implemented either, so when Opera did implementation it didn't implement those not seen on the general web.
  294. # [13:30] <annevk> hsivonen: I guess we'll see; I'm not too interested in getting involved though, WebSocket was hell
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  311. # [15:38] <jgraham> bmo produces a *huge* amount of mail per bug
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  313. # [15:40] <annevk> email preferences
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  315. # [15:41] <jgraham> Yeah, but there's no email pref that can distinguish between interesting comments and we-use-the-bug-tracker-as-a-code-review-tool comments
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  347. # [18:24] <annevk> zewt: we can have iteration later
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  349. # [18:25] <zewt> annevk: i just mean iteration can't follow Map since it doesn't do it (so either we wait until they do, or do something that probably won't match)
  350. # [18:25] <zewt> just a minor point
  351. # [18:26] <annevk> as for following Map, I guess I meant the ability to use it directly in some sense
  352. # [18:26] <annevk> obviously we can make our own using setter/getter/creator/deleter
  353. # [18:26] <zewt> i figured it was just expose the same interface
  354. # [18:27] <annevk> I guess "has" follows from indexed names
  355. # [18:27] <annevk> does dataset have has?
  356. # [18:28] <zewt> you mean 'x' in elem.dataset?
  357. # [18:28] <annevk> right
  358. # [18:29] <zewt> (i mean, it has that, not sure if you're asking something else)
  359. # [18:30] <zewt> fwiw i'm not dead set against a functional api or anything and boris might be right; i just wanted to examine it more closely since the arguments from the irc log didn't seem convincing
  360. # [18:31] <zewt> (uh, not "functional api", but you know what i mean)
  361. # [18:31] <zewt> on the other hand the prototype-less-sub-interface thing may also be fine
  362. # [18:36] <zewt> i guess url.query.values.foo is sort of ugly, though url.query.get("foo") isn't actually less typing or anything
  363. # [18:37] <jgraham> zewt: sydfunctional api? :p
  364. # [18:37] <jgraham> Argh
  365. # [18:37] <jgraham> *dysfunctional
  366. # [18:37] <zewt> dyslexics untie
  367. # [18:37] <jgraham> Or sydlexics, as I call them
  368. # [18:40] <annevk> url.query["foo"] would be less typing
  369. # [18:40] <annevk> or url.query.foo
  370. # [18:40] <annevk> it would allow for things like url.query.delete("x", "x") though (only delete x where its value is x)
  371. # [18:40] <zewt> but then you wouldn't want getAll on url.query
  372. # [18:40] <annevk> would not*
  373. # [18:40] <annevk> right, getter would always return a list
  374. # [18:41] <zewt> don't think i like that
  375. # [18:41] <zewt> because you end up having to write things like if(url.query.foo && url.query.foo[0] == "bar") all the time
  376. # [18:41] <annevk> hmm yeah
  377. # [18:41] <annevk> I guess maybe method-based approach is not too bad
  378. # [18:41] <zewt> i mean, one-item-per-key is by far the common case, even though we do want to handle the multiple-items case when needed
  379. # [18:42] <annevk> what happens if we have both methods and named getters and such?
  380. # [18:42] <zewt> well if you have url.query.getAll() and the query is ?getAll=1 ...
  381. # [18:42] <annevk> localStorage has that
  382. # [18:43] <annevk> and I guess TC39 doesn't like it, but on the other hand it already exists
  383. # [18:43] <zewt> well, with localStorage you're usually constructing what you're storing around the api, so you just don't store things like "toString"
  384. # [18:43] <zewt> a query api might be parsing any arbitrary url
  385. # [18:43] <annevk> you might want to store something like "length" though
  386. # [18:44] <annevk> I think having the explicit methods is probably better
  387. # [18:44] <zewt> i mean you'd just call it something else, or wrap it in a sub-object
  388. # [18:44] <annevk> also allows for some things http://medialize.github.com/URI.js/ offers
  389. # [18:44] <zewt> you usually don't take arbitrary external data and dump it straight into localStorage
  390. # [18:45] <zewt> am I the only person that cringes at this "how do you like" silliness heh
  391. # [18:46] <zewt> we definitely will want to support operations outside of simple getter/setter/iterate/contains, and i think that just either means 1: methods or 2: a sub-object for the subset of dictionary-like operations
  392. # [18:47] <annevk> if those are the choices I'm going with 1
  393. # [18:47] <annevk> which means nothing much has to change, teehee
  394. # [18:50] <zewt> the first thing i'd probably do is monkey patch in values :P
  395. # [18:50] <zewt> (all of my query-handling code just converts to an object anyway)
  396. # [18:51] <zewt> bleh, one api we really need to unscrew: cookies
  397. # [18:52] <zewt> document.cookie has got to be the single worst (non-dead) API on the whole platform
  398. # [18:54] <zewt> hey look some class action lawyer got rich as hell and i get $.40
  399. # [18:54] <zewt> Hachette, Harper Collins, and Simon & Schuster have settled an antitrust lawsuit about e-book prices.
  400. # [18:54] <zewt> the Attorneys General estimate that it will range from $0.30 to $1.32 for every eligible Kindle book that you purchased between April 2010 and May 2012.
  401. # [18:54] <zewt> didn't actually mean that in this channel, but sure why not
  402. # [18:59] <jgraham> FWIW I think a method based API is the only sane thing in js
  403. # [18:59] <annevk> document.cookie was supposed to be obsoleted by localStorage
  404. # [18:59] <jgraham> Even in better languages, handling one vs many nicely is difficult
  405. # [19:00] <annevk> of course localStorage made it somewhat worse, in hindsight
  406. # [19:00] <zewt> localStorage and cookies serve completely different use cases
  407. # [19:00] <annevk> meh
  408. # [19:01] <zewt> i mean, yeah, before localStorage the "store data for client-side access" use case was done with cookies, which was bad, but the "sending session info to the server" set of cases is still mostly cookies
  409. # [19:01] <jgraham> The web has an exciting selection of storage APIs
  410. # [19:01] <jgraham> All broken
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  412. # [19:02] <zewt> and the next time I end up with a mystery duplicate cookie that I can't delete because I don't know its path and document.cookie doesn't tell me I'm going to something something
  413. # [19:06] <annevk> so on Storage Hixie_ is using "setter creator" on one line but on the dataset one he's not
  414. # [19:11] <zewt> what's the difference?
  415. # [19:11] <zewt> between "setter" and "creator"
  416. # [19:12] <zewt> i guess in javascript there isn't one
  417. # [19:13] <zewt> seems like there inherently can't be a new one with things like dataset, since you don't know in advance of running the algorithm whether the item exists or not
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  421. # [19:19] <annevk> well you do I think per Web IDL
  422. # [19:19] <annevk> since it wouldn't be an indexed name
  423. # [19:21] <zewt> webidl itself doesn't keep track of what names are actually set, right? (since that's algorithmic for things like this)
  424. # [19:21] <zewt> (it has no idea that the set of names in classList changes because you messed with className)
  425. # [19:21] <zewt> (array, rather, same difference)
  426. # [19:23] <zewt> (guess I should stick to dataset for examples and not mix up the discussion heh)
  427. # [19:23] <zewt> so, it doesn't know that setAttribute might change the names you can retrieve with dataset
  428. # [19:26] <annevk> Web IDL has these concept of supported property names and such
  429. # [19:26] <annevk> concepts*
  430. # [19:26] <annevk> and they are defined for DOMStringMap too
  431. # [19:26] <annevk> but it's indeed algorithmic there, but it still exists for stuff like dataset.x
  432. # [19:27] <annevk> anyway, I cannot really think of a case where you'd want setter/creator to be different
  433. # [19:28] <zewt> well, the end behavior might be different, but still i'd put that all within a single algorithm, not making webidl part of that
  434. # [19:29] <zewt> eg. setting a query key should probably be a bit different depending on whether the key already exists (replace it in the same place) or not (append it), but webidl doesn't need to be involved in that
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  445. # [20:21] <zewt> annevk: in encoding, given a DOMString with unpaired surrogates, "preprocessed" to unicode characters with http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#dfn-obtain-unicode (giving having U+FFFDs), is the intended result that you get an encoder error with most encodings, but not with UTF-8 (which passes it through)?
  446. # [20:21] <zewt> giving having giving
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  448. # [20:23] <zewt> on one hand it makes sense (unicode encodings have the replacement character, but most other encodings don't have any equivalent), but it might be unexpected for algorithms: what's really a UTF-16 error causing different results (encoder error or no encoder error) depending on the output
  449. # [20:23] <zewt> (just something that came to mind while reminding myself what https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16219 was about)
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  451. # [20:33] <zewt> guess it doesn't really matter, since it's not like it's exposing code paths that otherwise wouldn't be
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  454. # [20:34] <annevk> utf-16 would work too
  455. # [20:34] <zewt> yeah, any unicode encoding
  456. # [20:35] <annevk> so WebKit always uses &#{digits}; for the non-Unicode encodings
  457. # [20:35] <annevk> some browsers sometimes emit ? depending on the context
  458. # [20:35] <annevk> Gecko emits the utf-8 byte sequence...
  459. # [20:35] <zewt> well, different users of the algorithms will want to do different things in those cases, i imagine
  460. # [20:36] <annevk> (also depends on the context)
  461. # [20:36] <annevk> if we leave the encoding API alone there's only two users
  462. # [20:36] <annevk> <form> and URL
  463. # [20:36] <annevk> <form> everyone does &#...;
  464. # [20:37] <annevk> URL is &#...; / ? / utf-8 byte sequence
  465. # [20:37] <zewt> encoding api wants to be able to have nonfatal encoding, right?
  466. # [20:37] <annevk> iirc
  467. # [20:37] <annevk> I kinda think we should try to go with &#...; and fatal
  468. # [20:37] <zewt> don't remember offhand whether that api currently allows non-unicode encoding or if they're trying to limit that to unicode (that's flipped back and forth a couple times)
  469. # [20:37] <annevk> given that this is legacy
  470. # [20:37] <annevk> and then we can keep the behavior in the Encoding spec
  471. # [20:38] <annevk> (well we could do that anyway, but you know)
  472. # [20:39] <zewt> well, once it supports &#1234; (meaning "encoder error" is being passed the codepoint), adding a parameter to say "use ?" later would be trivial
  473. # [20:39] <annevk> The main problem is that people are not happy with aligning on legacy stuff
  474. # [20:39] <annevk> zewt: right
  475. # [20:40] <zewt> If the internal fatal flag of the decoder object is set, then a decoder error causes an DOMException of type EncodingError to be thrown rather than emitting a fallback code point.
  476. # [20:41] <annevk> in other news, URLQuery.delete cannot work, it's a reserved word
  477. # [20:41] <annevk> has to be remove like I named it earlier on
  478. # [20:41] <zewt> that's not really good, sort of a monkey-patch
  479. # [20:41] <zewt> annevk: i thought about that but when i tested "delete" as a method name it seemed to work
  480. # [20:41] <zewt> though it's probably good to avoid anyway, if only to not make syntax highlighting weird, heh
  481. # [20:42] <annevk> what's wrong with the exception stuff?
  482. # [20:42] <zewt> it's hard to follow algorithms when one spec is saying "run this other spec's algorithm, except when this sub-algorithm is run do this other thing"
  483. # [20:43] <jgraham> delete can work as a method name
  484. # [20:43] <annevk> not really sure what would be a better way
  485. # [20:43] <jgraham> Although I think it might not be ideal style
  486. # [20:44] <zewt> have an input flag that means "errors are fatal" and define the behavior branch within the encoding spec
  487. # [20:44] <jgraham> (reserved words don't apply to propery names)
  488. # [20:46] <annevk> zewt: cannot define behavior for e.g. XML parsers within the encoding spec
  489. # [20:47] <annevk> zewt: I guess it could be a "run these steps defined in some applicable spec" kinda thing
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  491. # [20:47] <annevk> not sure I care too much about that right now
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  494. # [20:51] <annevk> arv argued for delete
  495. # [20:51] <annevk> but most other APIs use remove so I guess I'll go with remove
  496. # [20:51] <zewt> i don't really care either way, but fwiw apparently Map uses delete
  497. # [20:52] <zewt> (at least, at the moment)
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  502. # [21:01] <SamB_MacG5> grr... validator.nu doesn't seem to build with Java 1.5 :-(
  503. # [21:01] <zewt> java: "heh"
  504. # [21:02] * jtcranme1 is now known as jtcranmer
  505. # [21:03] <annevk> zewt: sure, and in JavaScript you'd do delete x[y]
  506. # [21:03] <annevk> not x.delete(y)
  507. # [21:04] <annevk> oh well, time for other stuff
  508. # [21:04] <zewt> annevk: from https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Map it looks like x.delete(y)
  509. # [21:04] <zewt> doesn't look like it uses any native syntax at all
  510. # [21:05] <annevk> whoa weird
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  512. # [21:05] <annevk> well then lets keep delete
  513. # [21:05] * annevk goes back to watching Homeland
  514. # [21:05] <zewt> (also no idea if that's up to date or how close to stable the spec is, this is about the first time i've even looked at Map)
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  549. # [23:26] <annevk> oh TabAtkins, I was faster than you, but you gave a better answer
  550. # [23:27] <annevk> also, felt good to rant a little on URLs
  551. # [23:27] <zewt> but this is stackoverflow, only the first answer is right
  552. # [23:27] <annevk> then Opera wins
  553. # [23:27] <zewt> heh, one reason i got tired of that site, it encourages fast answers instead of good ones
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  561. # [23:43] <teear> 123
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  568. # [23:56] <annevk> heh https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19528
  569. # Session Close: Sun Oct 14 00:00:00 2012

The end :)