/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-10-15 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Oct 15 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [09:04] <AryehGregor> annevk, AFAICT, isSupported is in all browsers too. If we can spec it as just returning true, is there any reason to try removing it? Any page that uses it will break, so it's almost sure to cause at least some compat issues, and it's really harmless to leave it in as a useless method.
# [09:07] <AryehGregor> Admittedly, in the first several pages of results on Google Code Search I seem not to find any uses of isSupported() outside of conformance tests.
# [09:09] * AryehGregor gets to the last page of 9 for /isSupported\([^[)]*,/ in JS and finds nothing
# [09:09] <AryehGregor> Still, why waste the effort?
# [09:09] <AryehGregor> Make it always return true and raise a warning in the console or something.
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# [09:31] <annevk> I don't feel strongly, but sicking, Ms2ger and I have been quite happy to remove cruft
# [09:32] <annevk> e.g. most of <basefont> is out of the platform
# [09:32] <annevk> as are various other minor things that are not too hard in principle
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# [09:35] <AryehGregor> Well, if the Mozilla module owners are happy with it, I have no problem going along with it.
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# [09:36] <AryehGregor> It doesn't seem worth the effort to me, but it doesn't bother me either.
# [09:37] <AryehGregor> "Implementations conforming to this specification will not support them."
# [09:37] <AryehGregor> Why "will" and not "must"?
# [09:37] <AryehGregor> Should I write tests for all of these being unsupported?
# [09:37] <annevk> I think I wrote a test for that once
# [09:38] <AryehGregor> Is it in the W3C repo anywhere?
# [09:38] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/file/tip/DOMCore/tests/submissions/Ms2ger/historical.html is my test
# [09:38] <AryehGregor> If not, I'll just write a new one, shouldn't take long.
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# [09:39] <AryehGregor> It doesn't seem up-to-date, is it?
# [09:39] <annevk> might not be, no
# [09:39] <annevk> but I think we haven't changed the list much
# [09:39] <AryehGregor> I'll update and approve it.
# [09:39] <annevk> it doesn't say "must not" because it doesn't make much sense I think for the specification to say that
# [09:40] <AryehGregor> Why? It's a testable requirement.
# [09:40] <annevk> because the standard is not a delta, it is the standard
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# [09:40] <annevk> and everything not in the standard and not in any standards implemented must of course not be implemented as it would be proprietary
# [09:41] <AryehGregor> Yeah, but that's not really testable in practice, because when you're writing tests for one spec you can't rule out the possibility that other specs might sneak in and spec something else.
# [09:41] <AryehGregor> So you can only fairly test for it if the DOM spec says "these must not be implemented".
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# [09:42] <annevk> you can also test it because there's no spec that says they should be implemented
# [09:42] <annevk> and we know they might be implemented because of history
# [09:42] <AryehGregor> Well, there are old specs that say they should be implemented. Maybe UAs are still implementing the old spec as well as the new one, where possible.
# [09:42] <AryehGregor> I dunno.
# [09:42] <AryehGregor> I don't mind writing a test anyway.
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# [09:43] <annevk> well yes, but those UAs would be non-conforming, as those old specs are obsolete (even though they're not marked as such)
# [09:43] <AryehGregor> You and I know that, but it's nice to be explicit.
# [09:43] <AryehGregor> But anyway, doesn't matter.
# [09:43] <AryehGregor> Interfaces that the spec no longer says should be unsupported: EventException, RangeException.
# [09:44] <AryehGregor> Document members: charset, defaultCharset, height, width.
# [09:45] <annevk> actually
# [09:45] <annevk> I think Ms2ger might have added those to the test
# [09:45] <annevk> but not the spec
# [09:45] <AryehGregor> Node members that the spec says should be removed but the test doesn't test for: attributes, namespaceURI, prefix, localName, isSameNode
# [09:45] <AryehGregor> Window member that's tested but not specced: attachEvent
# [09:46] <annevk> I think Ms2ger added that
# [09:46] <annevk> and turned this test into a more generic "obsolete stuff" test
# [09:47] <AryehGregor> I'd like to make the spec as explicit as possible.
# [09:47] <annevk> there's no spec for this test
# [09:47] <annevk> the historical section of the spec is just for people who have some history with the DOM
# [09:47] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: wouldn't query.get('a') => '1' rather than 1? i.e. always return strings?
# [09:48] <AryehGregor> Yeah, but we want interop on which cruft is removed.
# [09:48] <annevk> s/have some with/know some of/
# [09:48] <annevk> as I said I don't think we need a requirement for that
# [09:48] <AryehGregor> If all browsers support an obsolete feature, it might accidentally be necessary for web compat, in which case it needs to be specced.
# [09:48] <annevk> well yes
# [09:48] <AryehGregor> We don't know until at least someone tries removing it.
# [09:49] <annevk> right
# [09:49] <AryehGregor> And we won't know who's tried removing stuff unless we have a test.
# [09:49] <annevk> I'm not opposing this test, I wrote it :-)
# [09:49] <AryehGregor> But it's a little dodgy to write a test with no spec supporting it.
# [09:49] <AryehGregor> Meh, whatever.
# [09:49] <annevk> All specs together support it
# [09:50] <AryehGregor> If you know to ignore the old ones, which aren't actually marked as obsolete.
# [09:50] * AryehGregor goes off to file bugs on things Gecko still implements that don't have bugs, in case there are any
# [09:50] <AryehGregor> I don't like spec requirements that can only be figured out if you're a spec guru.
# [09:51] <AryehGregor> Most implementers aren't.
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# [10:05] <AryehGregor> Removing non-callable properties is not really such an issue, come to think of it, because those don't throw anyway.
# [10:06] <annevk> AryehGregor: okay, how about this
# [10:06] <annevk> AryehGregor: we make it a requirement and add a note "This requirement will be removed once a new somewhat stable-equilibrium for these historical artefacts has been reached."
# [10:07] <AryehGregor> Sounds fine to me.
# [10:07] <AryehGregor> I agree that once existing browsers don't support the features, there's no need for a requirement anymore.
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# [10:40] <annevk> AryehGregor: shall I make that change in a bit?
# [10:41] <annevk> (going offline now, I'll check the logs before I start working on it)
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# [10:47] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: testing things the spec does not say is necessary to cover all cases. e.g. if webidl says that a property must be present on the interface object and the prototype, it's interesting to test that it's *not* present on the instance even if the spec doesn't say "must not be present on the instance"
# [10:48] <zcorpan> where present i mean hasOwnProperty()
# [10:48] <zcorpan> specs saying everthing that must not happen is an infinite list so isn't done
# [10:48] <zcorpan> doesn't mean it can't be tested
# [10:49] <jgraham> Well, not all of it
# [10:50] <jgraham> Can't really write an infinite number of tests
# [10:50] <zcorpan> why not? :-P
# [10:50] <jgraham> In other news, hg fucked up my repo *again*
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# [11:07] <annevk> zcorpan: I think what AryehGregor meant is that this case is somewhat special since it used to be required and now it's required not to
# [11:08] <annevk> AryehGregor: making that change now
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# [11:11] <annevk> AryehGregor: hmm actually, the change is somewhat harder since it's split across a few subsections
# [11:11] <annevk> AryehGregor: e.g. EventException is listed
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# [11:12] <annevk> maybe we should list all interface and interface members in one section which combines all old DOM specs
# [11:12] <annevk> meh
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# [11:23] <annevk> AryehGregor: okay so not making that change for now, will think a bit about the design of that section
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# [12:15] <AryehGregor> Huh? I wrote a long comment to https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19431, what happened to it?
# [12:15] <AryehGregor> Did I forget to submit it and then close the tab, or was there a server hiccup?
# [12:16] * AryehGregor makes sure he's e-mailed when he makes the change, too, to avoid losing things if there ever is a server hiccup
# [12:17] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: I don't know of cases where a submitted comment disappeared. So if you think that's what happened, we should definitely report it so that they can check on it
# [12:18] <AryehGregor> My guess is it's more likely that I forgot to submit it, then.
# [12:18] <AryehGregor> Annoying.
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# [12:47] <AryehGregor> Wait, so the .internalSubset property is removed but the concept of internal subsets still exists, I guess?
# [12:47] * AryehGregor is confused
# [12:47] <AryehGregor> They're just not exposed via the DOM, or what?
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# [12:49] <jgraham> Is this a sinking ship?
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# [12:52] <AryehGregor> I hope not.
# [12:53] * AryehGregor gets out his snorkel gear just in case
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# [13:00] <smaug____> AryehGregor: I *think* also webkit or chromium has some data whether some functions are used
# [13:00] <smaug____> would be good to ask them too
# [13:00] <smaug____> and not just randomly remove bad APIs
# [13:00] <AryehGregor> It might also be worth looking through WebKit's bugs to see when they added it, in case it was because of compat issues.
# [13:02] <smaug____> I'd assume some old DOM2 stuff have been in webkit since khtml times
# [13:02] <AryehGregor> Some has, but some they added much later.
# [13:02] <AryehGregor> Some they still haven't added -- WebKit today doesn't support Document.contentType.
# [13:04] <smaug____> which means that some script might use .contentType to detect UA to be non-webkit
# [13:10] <AryehGregor> Okay, but if we want to ever have interop we have to break that kind of sniffing code sometimes. E.g., either we have to stop supporting .taintEnabled at some point and break pages that send us down IE code paths, or (perhaps more reasonably) other browsers have to support it and go down Gecko code paths.
# [13:10] <AryehGregor> Sometimes pain is inevitable if authors use stupid sniffing techniques.
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# [13:11] <smaug____> yup
# [13:11] <AryehGregor> Like "if navigator.taintEnabled is defined, assume you can use Gecko-only stuff" -- then other browsers can't add it. "if navigator.taintEnabled is undefined, assume you can use IE-specific stuff" -- then we can't remove it.
# [13:12] <smaug____> but need to be careful, and better to not to things without having at least some data
# [13:12] <AryehGregor> Yes, agreed.
# [13:12] <AryehGregor> I did do a Google Code Search and found no uses.
# [13:13] <smaug____> well, there are tons of examples for .isSupported
# [13:13] <AryehGregor> Like where?
# [13:13] <AryehGregor> If there are, we definitely shouldn't remove it.
# [13:14] <AryehGregor> .getFeature I found lots.
# [13:14] <AryehGregor> .isSupported I haven't found yet.
# [13:14] <smaug____> http://reference.sitepoint.com/javascript/Node/isSupported was the first result in google
# [13:15] <AryehGregor> It's documented, that doesn't mean it's used.
# [13:15] <AryehGregor> The only uses I found were in conformance tests.
# [13:16] <AryehGregor> http://code.google.com/codesearch
# [13:16] <smaug____> yeah, true, documentation doesn't mean it is being used
# [13:16] <AryehGregor> Search in JavaScript, that's a better indicator.
# [13:16] <smaug____> but I don't really trust google codesearch to give enough data
# [13:17] <AryehGregor> What I don't like about our telemetry is last I checked, it only says how many times *all users combined* hit the probe. What I want is how many *different* users hit the probe. I don't care if one guy really likes running conformance tests and hit isSupported() 50,000 times, and 99.99% of users didn't hit it once.
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# [13:19] <smaug____> yeah, that is an issue
# [13:20] <AryehGregor> Are there docs for what the different histogram types mean, exactly? I don't see them.
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# [13:21] <AryehGregor> (maybe this has become a discussion for #developers)
# [13:23] <smaug____> oh, usage of mutation events seems to have gone down a bit. Perhaps Google has started to use mutation observer
# [13:24] <smaug____> or people use more facebook and it doesn't use mutation events
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# [14:50] <karlcow> http://talsraviv.com/2012/07/20/do-you-really-need-a-server-build-your-minimum-viable-product-entirely-client-side/
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# [14:53] * AryehGregor discovers that Node.compareDocumentPosition a) is not interoperable in simple cases, b) does not match the spec
# [14:53] <AryehGregor> Yay!
# [14:53] <AryehGregor> Also, the MDN docs don't match Gecko's actual implementation.
# [14:54] <AryehGregor> const unsigned short DOCUMENT_POSITION_IMPLEMENTATION_SPECIFIC = 0x20;
# [14:55] <jgraham> Hah
# [14:56] <AryehGregor> Two disconnected nodes, picked somewhat randomly. The spec says to return 0x01.
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# [14:57] <AryehGregor> WebKit returns 0x21.
# [14:57] <AryehGregor> Opera returns 0x24.
# [14:57] <AryehGregor> Gecko returns . . . wait for it . . .
# [14:57] <AryehGregor> . . . either 0x23 or 0x25, depending (according to source code inspection) on which one's furthest ancestor is greater when they're compared as pointers.
# [14:57] <AryehGregor> No, seriously.
# [14:57] <AryehGregor> SERIOUSLY. I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP.
# [14:58] <AryehGregor> I WISH I WAS MAKING THIS UP.
# [14:58] <AryehGregor> http://dxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/content/base/src/nsINode.cpp.html#l764
# [14:58] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Nice of people to not clash with each other or the spec there :)
# [14:58] * AryehGregor pulls out hg blame
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# [14:59] <AryehGregor> And IE . . . also returns 0x23 or 0x25 at random.
# [14:59] * AryehGregor cries
# [15:00] <AryehGregor> No, wait. Opera returns 0x23.
# [15:00] <AryehGregor> At least that's something.
# [15:00] <AryehGregor> There are only three possible values, and three out of four browsers agree to return one of them at least some of the time.
# [15:01] <AryehGregor> Although WebKit is the sanest.
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# [15:07] <AryehGregor> "If there is no common container node, then the order is based upon order between the root container of each node that is in no container. In this case, the result is disconnected and implementation-specific. This result is stable as long as these outer-most containing nodes remain in memory and are not inserted into some other containing node. This would be the case when the nodes belong to different documents or fragments, and cloning the d
# [15:07] <AryehGregor> ocument or inserting a fragment might change the order."
# [15:08] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/core.html#DocumentPosition
# [15:08] <AryehGregor> ?!?
# [15:10] <jgraham> You know when the DOM is bad when the text starts "A bitmask..."
# [15:11] <AryehGregor> If only that were anything close to the real problem here. :(
# [15:11] <jgraham> Well it is close to the root problem
# [15:11] <jgraham> The root problem is "someone thought this was a good idea"
# [15:12] <jgraham> Anyway, is that part you quoted supposed to make any sense to me?
# [15:15] <AryehGregor> It doesn't?
# [15:15] <AryehGregor> If the two nodes have no common container, the spec says that there is an implementation-specific order.
# [15:16] <AryehGregor> Thus Gecko and IE are both completely conforming.
# [15:16] <AryehGregor> Opera may or may not be conforming, and WebKit is not.
# [15:16] <AryehGregor> I assume the idea is that this way, you could get a total ordering of all nodes in existence, in case you wanted one for some purpose or other.
# [15:16] <AryehGregor> This is, however, insane.
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# [15:19] <woef> Is there a technical reason why css column-span only takes 1 and all as values? Values like '2' or '3' would be a lot more useful :)
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# [15:22] <AryehGregor> Ah, no, Opera also randomly oscillates between 0x23 and 0x25 at random.
# [15:23] <AryehGregor> Good show to everyone on matching the spec.
# [15:23] <AryehGregor> Except WebKit, which is of course notorious for ignoring standards.
# [15:23] <AryehGregor> Sigh.
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# [15:49] <ashemedai> Interesting, seems only Firefox is doing decent subpixel AA on font-weight: bold on fonts. Neither Chrome or Opera seem to do well :S
# [15:50] <AryehGregor> That's very platform-specific, I imagine.
# [15:50] <AryehGregor> Hmm, what should I test now?
# [15:51] <AryehGregor> Encodings, let me do that.
# [15:51] <AryehGregor> Although I have nowhere to put the tests, hmph.
# [15:51] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Oh, I see
# [15:51] <ashemedai> AryehGregor: I think Chrome has a bug at least in this department (I added some details today at http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=125298 ) - but I don't understand Opera's rendering at all. Even a font-weight of normal looks bad to be honest. :S
# [15:51] <AryehGregor> jgraham, you see what?
# [15:52] <odinho> ahtop
# [15:53] * AryehGregor decides he can test .characterSet in DOM tests, even though really all the data comes from the encoding spec, because DOM normatively references the encoding spec for the definition of characterSet
# [15:53] <ashemedai> Anyway, can someone remind me what the problem was with browsers displaying normal text with monospace and the monospace in comparison looking much too small? Was it a simple x-height problem that needed a CSS fix or something else?
# [15:54] <AryehGregor> ashemedai, I think it was just an x-height problem, yeah.
# [15:54] <AryehGregor> I think that's what font-size-adjust is for, right?
# [15:54] <ashemedai> that ought to make my googling a bit easier
# [15:55] <ashemedai> http://code.stephenmorley.org/html-and-css/fixing-browsers-broken-monospace-font-handling/
# [15:55] <ashemedai> Wonder how uptodate/relevant that one still is
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# [15:55] <jgraham> AryehGregor: What the spec is trying to say
# [15:55] <AryehGregor> Ah, okay.
# [15:56] <hsivonen> Does Safari on OS X use AV Foundation yet?
# [15:57] <hsivonen> what's Long GOP H.264?
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# [15:57] <AryehGregor> There's no convenient way to set the document's encoding, I guess. Bother. Maybe I'll test URLs.
# [16:01] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: server plus <meta charset> not convenient enough?
# [16:01] <AryehGregor> Hmm, but does anything normatively refer to the URL spec in a manner that I could test it?
# [16:01] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, well, how do I set up the server? A PHP script?
# [16:02] <AryehGregor> I'd like to test hundreds of encodings in one page.
# [16:02] <AryehGregor> data: URLs work for Gecko and Opera, but not IE/WebKit.
# [16:02] <AryehGregor> IE doesn't support data: URLs in iframe, and WebKit treats them as cross-origin, so I can't access their .characterSet (I don't think).
# [16:03] <AryehGregor> A PHP script would work for the W3C test suite, but wouldn't be very useful for Gecko internal tests (nor, I suspect, other browsers').
# [16:04] <AryehGregor> What I did for testing different Content-Types for another purpose is use a Python script to generate lots of static files, but that's not fun for thousands of tests.
# [16:04] <zewt> i'd imagine any browser set system is going to need a way to generate remote content, whether with something like PHP or otherwise
# [16:04] <zewt> test system
# [16:04] <AryehGregor> zewt, yeah, but the problem is there's no way we have to do it cross-browser right now.
# [16:04] <jgraham> AryehGregor: PHP wouls work for us, but AFAIK not for WebKit either
# [16:05] <AryehGregor> jgraham, your tests are only runnable on your own server farm, right?
# [16:05] <AryehGregor> As opposed to at least Gecko and probably WebKit, where they have to be runnable locally.
# [16:05] <AryehGregor> (because they're, you know, open-source ;) )
# [16:05] <jgraham> They are run from a central server, yes
# [16:05] <AryehGregor> In your case you could just set up a bona fide web server.
# [16:05] <AryehGregor> Which I guess you do.
# [16:05] <jgraham> Yes, we have
# [16:06] <jgraham> You *could* do that too
# [16:06] <jgraham> But there might be reasons not to adopt that model
# [16:06] <AryehGregor> I think Gecko actually does.
# [16:06] <AryehGregor> On some definite port on localhost.
# [16:06] <zewt> can you use postMessage to have the data: URL send results back? don't really know where that's supported
# [16:06] <jgraham> (actually, I don't think "open source" is the main objection)
# [16:06] <AryehGregor> A dependency on postMessage() kind of stinks in a .characterSet test, and doesn't help with IE.
# [16:06] <jgraham> (I think "want to version tests with the code" is the main objection)
# [16:06] <zewt> i guess if you're running things off file:// then that's hard
# [16:07] <AryehGregor> jgraham, that's kind of prohibitive, yeah.
# [16:07] <jgraham> IE supports postMEssage
# [16:07] <AryehGregor> It doesn't support iframes with data: src's.
# [16:07] <jgraham> Not versioning tests with the code kind of sucks
# [16:07] <AryehGregor> So you don't version tests with the code?
# [16:07] <jgraham> But on the other hand, WebKit's layout tests are just funny
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# [16:07] <jgraham> They have screenshots for every platform in the source tree
# [16:07] <AryehGregor> Are those the ones that dump some kind of internal representation to plaintext and then diff it?
# [16:07] <zewt> jgraham: that just means needing a system to be able to put php blobs in the tests somehow (which isn't trivial, but not all that magic)
# [16:07] <AryehGregor> Oh, that's the other type of WebKit layout test.
# [16:08] <jgraham> Laugh? I almost died
# [16:08] <zewt> (sending PHP blobs in the URL itself for the server to run for you is one way, but obvious security issues there)
# [16:08] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Yeah, our system - for histortic reasons, mostly - has entirely seperate tests and cide
# [16:09] <jgraham> *code
# [16:09] <AryehGregor> *cider
# [16:09] <jgraham> It is very important to seperate tests and cider
# [16:10] <AryehGregor> Especially hard cider.
# [16:10] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: you could use a script to generate a bunch of files
# [16:10] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I could.
# [16:11] <AryehGregor> I've done it, it just makes me reluctant to test as thoroughly as I'd like.
# [16:11] <jgraham> It is a pain when you want to update a test of course. But it makes so many other things very simple.
# [16:11] <AryehGregor> Hmm?
# [16:11] <jgraham> The non-versioned tests thing
# [16:12] <AryehGregor> What does it make simple?
# [16:12] <jgraham> Sorry, I am a little behind the conversation
# [16:12] <AryehGregor> Wait, don't tell me your tests aren't versioned at all.
# [16:12] <jgraham> Yeah, they are
# [16:12] <AryehGregor> Phew.
# [16:12] <jgraham> But not tied to the version of the code
# [16:12] * AryehGregor could find more WebIDL stuff to test
# [16:12] <jgraham> You don't have to distribute specific versions of tests to individual test slaves
# [16:13] * hsivonen learned a new meaning for GOP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_of_pictures
# [16:13] <AryehGregor> jgraham, our test slaves build the source code too, so they get the tests with the source code. How do you detect if someone breaks the build on a different platform?
# [16:13] <jgraham> Which makes the test sytem scale rather well without scary complexity
# [16:14] <jgraham> We have seperate test machines and build machines
# [16:14] <AryehGregor> So do we.
# [16:14] <AryehGregor> But the test machines need the compiled binaries anyway to actually run the tests, so they can get the tests at the same time.
# [16:14] <AryehGregor> (I think; I'm not completely familiar with our architecture)
# [16:15] <jgraham> Right, but then you have to either distribute gigabytes of tests with each build, or somehow split up the tests
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# [16:15] <jgraham> AFAIK, in the Mozilla architecture tests are split up statically
# [16:15] <AryehGregor> Gigabytes of tests?
# [16:15] <jgraham> So you know that machine A will always run Mochitests, and B will always run Reftests and so on
# [16:15] <AryehGregor> Our entire codebase is only a few gigs.
# [16:15] <jgraham> Including media files, yeah, I think so
# [16:15] <AryehGregor> How big a media file do you need for testing?
# [16:16] <AryehGregor> We have a couple of short videos.
# [16:16] <AryehGregor> Of course, we're not going to have gigs of tests if we can avoid it, because we use a DVCS . . .
# [16:16] <AryehGregor> (and they're in the source code repo)
# [16:16] <jgraham> Google came up with http://code.google.com/p/codeswarm/ to overcome the test scaling system
# [16:16] <jgraham> *problem
# [16:16] <jgraham> But that looks scary complex
# [16:16] <jgraham> Whereas our system scales really nicely
# [16:17] <jgraham> Any test slave can run any test, more or less
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# [16:17] <jgraham> So you can just keep adding slaves until you are limited by something else
# [16:17] * AryehGregor doesn't know exactly how it works with us
# [16:19] <AryehGregor> I don't *think* we have different test slaves for different types of tests. Obviously for different platforms we do.
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# [16:21] <smaug____> jgraham: sounds pretty similar to what we do
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# [16:23] <smaug____> also, I think we can run stuff on Amazon's cloud
# [16:24] <AryehGregor> I think that's only building for now.
# [16:33] <zcorpan> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19540 wow the spec text kinda sucks here
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# [16:37] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Not necessarily different slaves for different *typees* of tests. I don't think I explained the difference clearly. AFAICT you have regression tests split up into 12 predefined batches (5 mochitest, some others). So for each platform, you can at best run 12 lots of testing concurrently
# [16:38] <AryehGregor> For any given revision to be tested, yes.
# [16:38] <jgraham> We split the tests dynamically at runtime, and typically have a few hundred batches per build
# [16:38] <AryehGregor> (The number of batches varies depending on platform and options.)
# [16:38] <AryehGregor> Yes, that would be vastly superior.
# [16:38] <jgraham> (per platform)
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# [16:39] <AryehGregor> I wish we had the ability to do that, and maybe, you know, rerun individual failing tests without having to spend 40 minutes rerunning a whole batch.
# [16:39] <jgraham> Which I thin kis what google swarm is supposed to give you
# [16:39] * GPHemsley wonders what he did right... but annevk is not around to tell him.
# [16:39] <jgraham> But it looks mighty complicated
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# [17:32] <AryehGregor> So it turns out making 847 iframes and populating them with data URLs is slow.
# [17:32] <AryehGregor> Sigh.
# [17:32] <AryehGregor> Why does testing have to be annoying?
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# [17:33] <charlvn> i am building an irc bot that extracts some basic information about a given uri but i am wondering what is senseful to include in a one line response
# [17:34] <charlvn> the page title, obviously, and if oembed is present, some info from that, but what else?
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# [17:41] <AryehGregor> http://w3c-test.org/webapps/DOMCore/tests/submissions/AryehGregor/Document-characterSet-normalization.html
# [17:41] <AryehGregor> Currently uses a .php file.
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# [17:41] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Could you make, say, 8 iframes and populate them with data urls then, when as each test completes populate its iframe with a different data url?
# [17:42] <AryehGregor> Hmm, the PHP file isn't there . . .
# [17:42] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I also think this might help Opera, which iirc has a limit of 200 iframes per page or something
# [17:42] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I considered it.
# [17:42] <AryehGregor> Opera seems to not completely break.
# [17:42] <AryehGregor> So where did the PHP file go?
# [17:42] <AryehGregor> Does w3c-test.org filter them?
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# [17:43] <AryehGregor> Does it allow them at all?
# [17:43] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Yeah, they are supposed to be manually reviewed
# [17:43] <AryehGregor> Oh, blech.
# [17:43] <AryehGregor> And who has the ability to do that?
# [17:43] <jgraham> So they don't get synced at first
# [17:43] <jgraham> I dunno
# [17:43] <AryehGregor> It would be easier to use a scratch domain, and/or generate static files.
# [17:43] <jgraham> O think they are automatically notified though
# [17:44] <jgraham> So I don't think you need to do anything
# [17:44] <jgraham> MikeSmith is the knower of all things, however
# [17:44] <AryehGregor> Well, I meant it as a temporary thing to test, because IE is in a sandbox and can't access localhost.
# [17:44] <AryehGregor> Unless MikeSmith is willing to approve the file within however long it takes me to write a Python script to autogenerate a few hundred static files, I'll just do that.
# [17:46] <AryehGregor> I need to figure out a way to get VirtualBox to access the web server on the host machine.
# [17:48] * AryehGregor reads docs
# [17:50] <AryehGregor> Oh, so just connecting to http://10.0.0.2:8080/ works fine.
# [17:50] <AryehGregor> That makes a lot of sense.
# [17:51] <AryehGregor> Apparently VirtualBox transparently set itself up using NAT and I didn't even notice this whole time. I thought the VM didn't have network access.
# [17:51] <jgraham> No, that's the default. You can switch it to Bridged or something I think
# [17:51] <jgraham> Which is more useful
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# [18:42] <AryehGregor> jgraham, how is it more useful?
# [18:43] * AryehGregor makes lists of all the ways in which browsers deviate from the encoding spec
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# [18:49] <Hixie_> good morning all
# [18:51] <divya> zewt: let me assure you it is not an @adobe view
# [18:51] <divya> zewt: w.r.t opinions expressed by someone on URL stuff
# [18:53] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Yeah, you're right. I mistyped. Always strings.
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# [18:59] <jgraham> AryehGregor: istr it allowed me to resolve local servers which I couldn't with NAT
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> annevk: Reserved words are no longer reserved unconditionally in JS - you can use them as property names. Chrome and FF both definitely allow it.
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# [19:00] <jgraham> I said that!
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# [19:00] <jgraham> ;)
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> jgraham: I was reading scrollback. Can't be expected to remember to reply only after I've already read the entire thing. ^_^
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# [19:01] <divya> why is annevk OFFLINE
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# [19:01] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I guessed. It's OK IRC is still less confusing than twitter
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# [19:01] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor, jgraham : something needs doing from me?
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# [19:02] <jgraham> MikeSmith: AryehGregor uploaded a PHP script. I lost the thread of the story after that; he may have rewritten the tests not not require it
# [19:03] <MikeSmith> ok
# [19:03] * MikeSmith takes a look
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# [19:03] <AryehGregor> I probably will rewrite the tests to not require it.
# [19:04] <AryehGregor> But it's about two lines long, so you should be able to approve it without too much looking.
# [19:04] <AryehGregor> No need if it's annoying, though.
# [19:04] <MikeSmith> which repo you pushed it to?
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# [19:12] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: http://w3c-test.org/webapps/DOMCore/tests/submissions/AryehGregor/encoding.php live now
# [19:12] <odinho> divya: Does he have no right? :P
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# [19:15] <jgraham> Hmm, I wonder if it is widely known that dealing with *invalid* content is not the primary source of cross-browser compat issues (anymore)
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# [19:16] <jgraham> Or at least I believe that to be the case
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# [19:17] <Hixie_> can someone explain to me why every time we try to fix the URL mess, the IETF people get up in arms, but every time we say "ok, you fix it", they do sod all
# [19:18] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: Bizarro Superman
# [19:19] <jgraham> Because one involves writing offended email - possibly in green ink - and one involves proper work?
# [19:20] <jgraham> I suppose an alternative hypothesis is that they don't think there's anything that needs fixing
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# [19:21] <Hixie_> drives me crazy
# [19:21] <Hixie_> actually that's not true, it just lowers my respect for them
# [19:23] <Hixie_> this most recent round of complaints is particularly flagrant though given that they've had four years to get their act together on this, including several attempts from several of us to tell them all the things that need specifying, and they've done precisely nothing
# [19:24] <SamB_MacG5> maybe they need replacing
# [19:26] * SamB_MacG5 wonders where netscape/mozilla's "rel" values are documented
# [19:26] <SamB_MacG5> +old
# [19:26] <SamB_MacG5> there was supposed to be an "old" in that wondering
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# [19:33] <GPHemsley> Given the number of specs that are now under WHATWG's purview, I wonder if it might make sense to create additional mailing lists for more specific discussion? (One way would be to have separate mailing lists for separate specs.)
# [19:34] <SamB_MacG5> GPHemsley: shouldn't it be by spec families?
# [19:34] <SamB_MacG5> some of the specs are pretty small ...
# [19:34] <GPHemsley> That's another way, I suppose. Where are such families defined?
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# [19:34] <SamB_MacG5> you'd have to do that, too, I think ;-)
# [19:36] <TabAtkins> An alternative is to do as we do in CSS - prefix your mails with a per-spec token, so you can easily filter for specific specs you do or don't care about.
# [19:36] <SamB_MacG5> (sort of like how the W3C has a CSS WG and an HTML WG and so on, only with a minimum of red tape.)
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# [19:37] <SamB_MacG5> (and no dues)
# [19:37] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: Well, I was hoping to avoid have to post-filter ;)
# [19:37] <GPHemsley> ing
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# [19:39] * GPHemsley also wonders when http://spec.whatwg.org/ is gonna get updated to point to something useful.
# [19:40] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: more mailing lists causes more fragmentation
# [19:40] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: so that's unlikely to happen with the current set of tspecs
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# [19:42] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: HTML doesn't actually require the charset, right?
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# [19:45] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: Fragmentation isn't inherently a bad thing. Judging from http://www.whatwg.org/specs/ , the current specs could be split into 2 or 3 groups: something like pre-processing/file handling (Encoding, URLs, Fetch, MIME Sniffing) and processing (HTML, DOM, Quirks, etc.)
# [19:46] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: a character encoding declaration is required in most cases
# [19:46] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: but there's about six zillion ways to specify it
# [19:46] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: and the precise requirements are kinda hard to summarise
# [19:46] <Hixie_> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#charset
# [19:47] * GPHemsley also wonders why http://developers.whatwg.org/ is formatted differently than all the other WHATWG pages (e.g. with a serif typeface) and why it uses such a small max width.
# [19:47] <Hixie_> that's ben's baby
# [19:48] <Hixie_> it's our attempt at addressing the category of potential readers who find the WHATWG spec style (both in terms of presentation and in terms of content) to be unusable
# [19:48] <Hixie_> so e.g. it omits large chunks of the spec, it uses radically different styles, it uses appcache to be cachable on phones, etc
# [19:49] <GPHemsley> I question whether using radically different styles is truly necessary (though the other things you mentioned seem reasonable).
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# [19:55] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: if you want to maintain a similar version with different styles, let me know, i can set you up with a domain :-)
# [19:56] <GPHemsley> :P
# [19:56] <GPHemsley> FWIW, I generally use the markup document from the W3C for that information, so... >_>
# [19:57] <GPHemsley> Anyway, I'm more interested in continuing the mailing list discussion that the document styling one ;)
# [19:58] * hsivonen blinks at HTML WG and minimum red tape in one sentence
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# [20:00] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18338#c2
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# [20:03] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: OK so I guess I'll respond there
# [20:03] <MikeSmith> but the answer is yeah I suppose it doesn't need to be a document-conformance error
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# [20:04] <Hixie_> if you are ok with the spec as is, feel free to close hte bug :-)
# [20:04] <MikeSmith> but I brought it up because it's something the validator does check and report on
# [20:04] <hsivonen> the validator input is the content-type header and the entity body
# [20:05] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so do you think the spec should have a requirement for this or not?
# [20:05] <Hixie_> right but hte validator checks more than just HTML, right?
# [20:05] <Hixie_> my argument is that this is a conformance error to HTTP
# [20:05] <Hixie_> HTML doesn't really know much about HTTP
# [20:05] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: well you have a requirement in the spec for the character encoding information to be valid
# [20:05] <Hixie_> (it knows more than i'd like it to)
# [20:06] <MikeSmith> including if the encoding is given in the HTTP header, right?
# [20:06] <Hixie_> true, but that's mostly just because i don't explicitly limit it to HTML because i don't want people to be confused into thinking i'm saying it's ok if XML or HTTP char enco decls are wrong
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# [20:06] <MikeSmith> OK
# [20:07] <Hixie_> (people have an incredibly annoying tendency to read between the lines)
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# [20:07] <hsivonen> theoretically, this might belong in hhtp. in practice, a note in html would be nice
# [20:07] <Hixie_> i'm happy to add a note, certainly
# [20:08] <Hixie_> https://bug-44436-attachments.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=168646 :-/
# [20:09] <GPHemsley> ...at least it's site specific...?
# [20:10] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Yeah, site-specific quirks are necessary sometimes. :/
# [20:10] <TabAtkins> This site in particular has apparently resisted several years of fixes.
# [20:10] <TabAtkins> However, I don't think we've tried to get our devrel to yell at them yet. I suggested that as the first step.
# [20:11] <Hixie_> the site even says "We cannot support Google Chrome for completing your Change of Address at this time."
# [20:11] <Hixie_> because I guess adding a line saying "we suck" was easier than fixing their site...?
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# [20:12] <Hixie_> it's broken in firefox too
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# [20:14] <TabAtkins> It's broken in every browser that support @required.
# [20:14] <tantek> Is the spec broken or is every browser broken?
# [20:14] <TabAtkins> The site is broken.
# [20:15] <TabAtkins> (It's using 'required="yes"' and 'required="no"' for its own JS-based validation.
# [20:15] <TabAtkins> )
# [20:16] <TabAtkins> And the site believes that it's easier to say "We only support IE6 and IE7" than to change the attribute name to "data-required".
# [20:16] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: yeah, i was just checking that no other browser had a hack yet
# [20:16] <SamB_MacG5> maybe there should be some "hall of shame" generated from the site-specific hacks ?
# [20:17] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: opera in particular has a whole framework for doing site-specific hacks, so it wouldn't be surprising to me if it had worked there
# [20:17] <Hixie_> SamB_MacG5: IBM has such a site-specific hack that the HTML parser spec lists IBM by name
# [20:17] <Lachy> Wow, that's a rather complicated way of providing a site specific fix. That's the kind of bug that Opera has BrowserJS for.
# [20:17] <SamB_MacG5> I meant for the less extreme offenders
# [20:18] <SamB_MacG5> Hixie_: also, isn't the name needed to detect the site?
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# [20:18] <Hixie_> SamB_MacG5: right, what i mean is that this particular site-specific hack ended up in the spec
# [20:19] <SamB_MacG5> that *is* pretty bad
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# [20:20] <SamB_MacG5> I guess my point was that the spec could hardly enshrine an anonymous site-specific hack ...
# [20:20] <Hixie_> going back to the URL thing (i'm reading my mailing list mail from the weekend backwards, so sue me): how do IETF people not realise that there is value in having all software error-correct URLs the same way...????!!!???
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# [20:25] <SamB_MacG5> well ... that's not quite going to happen ...
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# [20:26] <SamB_MacG5> ... I mean, some contexts add http:// and others treat them as relative ...
# [20:27] <SamB_MacG5> you know, listing the character entities (or whatever you call them) in alphabetical order is less then ideal ...
# [20:31] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: in case you missed it https://twitter.com/algermissen/status/257229931338137600 is a fun read too
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# [20:35] <SamB_MacG5> so, is the change in &lang; and &rang; mentioned anywhere in the spec, and if so, where?
# [20:35] <tantek> MikeSmith - how is that tweet helpful? Calling the goals "crappy" without providing specifics, nor suggestions for improvements is pretty useless feedback.
# [20:35] <tantek> oh sorry, you said "fun", not "helpful", my bad ;)
# [20:36] * tantek just re-read the goals in http://url.spec.whatwg.org/ and they seem reasonable.
# [20:37] <hsivonen> I kinda wish we did site-specific hacks sometimes. We *finally* got te ability to cuatomize the UA string on a per-site basis for broken top sites
# [20:37] <hsivonen> the first site was AOL's webmail
# [20:37] <hsivonen> fits the pattern of Chrome and Safari having had to use site-specific hacks for Yahoo mail
# [20:37] <MikeSmith> tantek: yeah, the fact that some of the commenters think the goals are unreasonable is what's hard to understand
# [20:38] <tantek> hsivonen, at some point, perhaps we should instead start adding site-specific little yellow drop down toolbars that give the user a warning about the crappily coded/out-of-date site and suggest alternatives. Visible shaming (of such sites) as it were.
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# [20:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so much for "running code"
# [20:39] <tantek> MikeSmith - people venting on twitter without specifics or suggested improvements is "crappy", even if they call themselves things like "Web Architecture (REST) Consultant". IMHO such tweets are pretty much ignorable.
# [20:40] <tantek> It's like if you're so smart, as "Web Architecture (REST) Consultant", then show it in your writing/tweeting etc.
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# [20:43] <MikeSmith> that tweet is representative of other feedback we've gotten in e-mail messages too
# [20:43] <MikeSmith> from some other partisans
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# [20:49] <smaug____> AryehGregor: ping
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# [20:53] <MikeSmith> oh cool another helpful comment
# [20:53] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/timbray/status/257901952015421442
# [20:53] <MikeSmith> I wonder who else Tim thinks "owns" URLs now
# [20:54] <MikeSmith> since among the comments the reactionaries have made is that we shouldn't be using the term "URL" at all to begin with
# [20:54] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: you could ask him
# [20:55] <jsbell> Be gentle; the notion that you can't simply "fix" browsers to match a platonic ideal is not well grokked.
# [20:55] <MikeSmith> jsbell: yeah it seems so
# [20:55] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: thanks for all the wiki cleanup :-)
# [20:56] <GPHemsley> :)
# [20:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah true
# [20:56] <jgraham> The thing is, all the griping is just irrelevant noise
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# [20:57] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: it's a culture clash. What's weird is that it's a clash between the IETF's claimed culture and their real culture.
# [20:57] <jgraham> Either people follow the new thing or they don't
# [20:57] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: yeah that's an interesting way to describe it
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# [20:58] <jgraham> Who "wants" to own it is irrelevant, as is who has the right to own it or whatever other way you want to phrase it
# [20:58] <jgraham> You either do something useful that people want to follow
# [20:58] <jgraham> Or you are damage that gets routed around
# [20:58] <jgraham> If anne's thing is useful it will win by people following it
# [20:58] <hsivonen> http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/02/27/URL
# [20:59] <jgraham> Not by convincing IETF people that they need to change their ideas
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# [21:00] <hsivonen> at least the w3c didn't use /199x/1999 in namespace urls
# [21:01] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so from that it seems clear he agrees the IETF is not to be expected to define URLs
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# [21:02] <MikeSmith> jgraham: that blog post of Tim's that hsivonen cited seems to argue for the routing-around strategy
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# [21:03] <MikeSmith> anyway I guess none of these people have been reading the HTML spec for the last many years
# [21:03] <MikeSmith> otherwise none of this would be news to them
# [21:03] <MikeSmith> since it's been in there for 4+ years already
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# [21:14] <SamB_MacG5> listing all the codepoints ending in FFFE and FFFF is not pretty
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# [21:16] <hsivonen> it still bothers me a bit that I had to give up on usimg the term "astral noncharacter" in the Firefox UI
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# [21:17] <SamB_MacG5> turn that into a table of matching rules and they could be called that ;-P
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# [21:20] * SamB_MacG5 wishes he could search his gmail without using the web UI
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# [21:21] <GPHemsley> Have you seen this? http://www.w3.org/QA/2012/10/w3c_world_standard_day_blog.html
# [21:21] <SamB_MacG5> (or that browsers supported memory limiting, or something)
# [21:22] * GPHemsley seconds SamB_MacG5 and adds that he wishes the web UI was much more powerful, and that search results were not limited to an uncustomizable low number.
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# [21:26] <SamB_MacG5> Hixie_: these replies from the spec annotation thingy might be easier to find if they were sent from something @whatwg.org
# [21:26] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: actually we took it out of the HTML spec when they asked that we take it out and when they promised to update the RFCs so we could just point to those
# [21:26] <Hixie_> SamB_MacG5: hm?
# [21:26] <Hixie_> SamB_MacG5: oh the bug mail?
# [21:26] <Hixie_> SamB_MacG5: from bugzilla@jessica?
# [21:27] <SamB_MacG5> Hixie_: no, the ones with passwords
# [21:27] <Hixie_> oh
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# [21:27] <SamB_MacG5> I certainly wasn't expecting it to come "from" you ;-)
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# [21:38] <SamB_MacG5> hmm, using "below" to refer to the error handling rules from the #parse-error paragraph is confusing
# [21:38] * SamB_MacG5 actually tried to scroll down to find them
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# [21:40] <SamB_MacG5> "throughout the Parsing HTML documents section"?
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# [21:48] <Hixie_> SamB_MacG5: yeah i try to make all my scripts send mail from me, since imho it's me sending the mail, just by script :-)
# [21:49] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: man, looking at all those url comments from ietf folk, they're gonna have a cow when we get around to figuring out mime types, etc :-P
# [21:49] <SamB_MacG5> personally I would consider it to be sent by the spec annotation system ;-)
# [21:49] <Hixie_> until the spec annotation system is sentient, it's still me really :-P
# [21:49] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: yeah (about mime types and such)
# [21:49] <SamB_MacG5> Hixie_: if they were as smart as they were cracked up to be, they would make hamburgers
# [21:50] <SamB_MacG5> or perhaps milk it
# [21:50] <Hixie_> SamB_MacG5: re "below", you're right, it means the next zillion sections
# [21:50] <Hixie_> SamB_MacG5: feel free to file a bug if you want that cleared up
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# [21:53] <GPHemsley> wait... there are WHATWG forums??
# [21:54] <SamB_MacG5> you mean email, right?
# [21:56] <GPHemsley> SamB_MacG5: If you're talking to me, no. I mean actual forums.
# [21:57] <SamB_MacG5> big open spaces in the middle of cities for people to stand around and talk?
# [21:57] <GPHemsley> And they even get their own big block on the WHATWG homepage
# [21:58] <GPHemsley> I meant *actual*, not *actual actual* ;)
# [21:58] <GPHemsley> Talk about hiding in plain sight
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# [22:01] <jgraham> We don't do F2Fs so much as flash mobs
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# [22:02] <SamB_MacG5> so, *why* does it have a forum?
# [22:02] <Hixie_> speaking of those flash mobs, i'd really appreciate it if when you guys flash mob outside my house you were quieter about it
# [22:02] <Hixie_> you make all the secret scheming much more difficult
# [22:02] <Hixie_> SamB_MacG5: why not? :-)
# [22:02] <jgraham> Blame hober. He let on about the vast browser-wing conspiracy
# [22:06] <TabAtkins> Are the :past/:future pseudos for WebVTT already implemented somehwere?
# [22:06] <SamB_MacG5> hmm, bugzilla's grumbling about not having any random quips to impart
# [22:06] <SamB_MacG5> did someone just turn that on?
# [22:08] <jgraham> Speaking of WebVTT
# [22:08] <jgraham> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/1ad5f579acf8/tests/submission/Opera/media
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# [22:14] * SamB_MacG5 doesn't grasp how allowing a website to implement a gopher handler could result in cookie theft ...
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# [22:19] <Hixie_> http://www.w3.org/mid/507C4775.6000806@kosek.cz seems to have a rather odd view of the w3c
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# [22:20] <Hixie_> (in contrast to the w3c, it describes the whatwg as a "closed organization which can't be controlled and new members are invitation-only", which is just as true, maybe even more true, for the w3c/htmlwg as the whatwg)
# [22:21] <SamB_MacG5> Hixie_: it's true WRT members
# [22:21] <Hixie_> the statement is certainly true for the whatwg
# [22:21] <Hixie_> i'm just saying it's just as true for the w3c/htmlwg
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# [22:22] <SamB_MacG5> the misleading thing is that you don't need membership, generally ...
# [22:22] <Hixie_> yeah
# [22:22] <Hixie_> both groups in essence work in the same way -- people contribute, then a small set of self-selected people make a decision, then the browser vendors tell us to take a hike and do their own thing anyway :-)
# [22:23] <SamB_MacG5> maybe members should be renamed to board-members
# [22:23] <SamB_MacG5> lol
# [22:23] <Hixie_> (i use the term "charter members", but it's not really an issue, the charter members basically don't do anything in practice other than what you see on the list)
# [22:24] <Hixie_> anyway, lunch
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# [22:28] <SamB_MacG5> hmm, why make new components for all the different spec versions? couldn't they just be treated as, you know, versions?
# [22:29] <SamB_MacG5> or does bugzilla suck at that?
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# [22:29] <hober> i'm surprised there haven't been any memes related to the latest url mess
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# [22:30] <SamB_MacG5> couldn't get cats to look that messy
# [22:30] <SamB_MacG5> (is there some particular mess?)
# [22:31] * SamB_MacG5 goes to practice driving
# [22:33] <TabAtkins> So, any answer to :past/:future implementation?
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# [22:39] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Well I couldn't see that we had tests for it
# [22:39] <jgraham> But zcorpan would actually know
# [22:42] <GPHemsley> searching for GIF-related things is a good way to travel through an Internet wormhole to the late 1990s
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# [22:49] <GPHemsley> This page is a wonder on so many levels: http://netghost.narod.ru/gff/sample/images/gif/index.htm
# [22:49] <GPHemsley> aside from the GIFfy goodness, there's some markup issues
# [22:49] <GPHemsley> AND
# [22:49] <GPHemsley> Server: ZX_Spectrum/1997 (Sinclair_BASIC)
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# [23:10] <SamB_MacG5> GPHemsley: that's ... not *true*, is it?
# [23:10] <GPHemsley> it very well could be
# [23:10] <GPHemsley> but I have no idea
# [23:12] <GPHemsley> oh, perhaps not
# [23:12] <GPHemsley> "Others are more playful, such as the group of sites identifying their server as ZX_Spectrum/1997 (Sinclair_BASIC), which was an 8-bit personal home computer released in 1982, but it was discontinued two years before the World Wide Web even existed."
# [23:12] <GPHemsley> http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2009/04/08/twitters-servers-say-hi/
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# [23:13] <SamB_MacG5> GPHemsley: that in istelf is inconclusive
# [23:15] <jgraham> OTOH, think about how fast a spectrum was and how fast that server was
# [23:15] <SamB_MacG5> could be behind a cache ;-)
# [23:18] <jgraham> Yeah, I imagine it is visited so often that a cache is sure to be populated :p
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# Session Close: Tue Oct 16 00:00:00 2012

The end :)