/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-10-17 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Oct 17 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:27] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: (re www-style) Ok, great :)
# [00:27] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: ^_^
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# [00:28] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: how much can we change stuff that is already in CR? Were these ok because they are minor?
# [00:29] <TabAtkins> Depends. We *can* change anything, but some types of changes require a quick circle back to LC for Process reasons.
# [00:30] <TabAtkins> I think we're allowed to make changes in the transition to PR? I dunno.
# [00:30] <TabAtkins> fantasai would know better.
# [00:30] <SimonSapin> How do we know which is which?
# [00:30] <TabAtkins> Things which make implementations of the old spec invalid require an LC pass.
# [00:31] <TabAtkins> Doing the opposite is fine.
# [00:31] <TabAtkins> And editorial changes are fine.
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# [00:32] <SimonSapin> got it, thanks
# [00:32] <SimonSapin> (isn’t wqname -> qname in the first case?)
# [00:32] <TabAtkins> Yes.
# [00:33] <TabAtkins> (Though going the from qname -> wqname would be the second case - loosening a restriction.)
# [00:33] <TabAtkins> Conceptually, it's just whether a complete implementation of the old spec would now be incomplete (okay) or incorrect (not okay).
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# [00:34] <SimonSapin> I’ve only tested three implementations, but none of them parsed attr(*|foo)
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# [00:36] <TabAtkins> Right, that change happened during LC, so it's likely that impls arent' updated to it yet.
# [00:36] <TabAtkins> But the rule is based on a *theoretical* complete implementation.
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# [00:38] <SimonSapin> so do we need one more cycle for css3-values for today’s changes?
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# [00:39] <TabAtkins> We will, yeah. Probably do it after the testsuite is done, when we're about ready to do PR.
# [00:39] <TabAtkins> So as to avoid cycling through multiple times.
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# [01:00] <Philip`> hsivonen: Ah, looks like the offending GSUB subtable is used for e.g. "ch" when you enable dlig
# [01:00] <Philip`> so it seems like it'd be nicest to handle that case correctly
# [01:02] * Philip` tries to remember enough of how all the code works
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# [01:29] <jamund> I want to update http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_Web_Service_Interface and add a CORS example
# [01:29] <jamund> https://gist.github.com/3902535
# [01:29] <Hixie_> do you need an account?
# [01:29] <jamund> Sure. I don't know how to get access.
# [01:30] <Hixie_> tell me your username, name, e-mail address
# [01:30] <jamund> xjamundx, Jamund Ferguson, jamund@gmail.com
# [01:30] <Hixie_> it is done, check e-mail
# [01:31] <jamund> thanks.
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# Session Close: Wed Oct 17 03:27:26 2012
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# Session Start: Wed Oct 17 03:27:26 2012
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [03:28] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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# [06:08] <tiglionabbit> hi
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# [06:09] <tiglionabbit> has anyone proposed changing the definitions of inches and centimeters?
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# [06:19] <SamB_MacG5> hmm?
# [06:20] <SamB_MacG5> tiglionabbit: why?
# [06:20] <tiglionabbit> well, for starters, I find it extremely difficult to determine if the user has a tiny screen or not
# [06:20] <tiglionabbit> how can I know if my text is going to be too small or my buttons are going to be too small to press?
# [06:20] <tiglionabbit> my phone's screen resolution is 960x540
# [06:20] <SamB_MacG5> also, isn't that a CSS matter?
# [06:21] <tiglionabbit> that's a higher resolution than my mom's desktop computer
# [06:21] <tiglionabbit> yes
# [06:21] <tiglionabbit> isn't that in the domain of this group?
# [06:21] <tiglionabbit> I think we should specify a way for browsers to report their device's physical dimensions
# [06:21] <SamB_MacG5> well, *that* might not be a bad idea
# [06:21] <tiglionabbit> and I think we should have some flag to reclaim the use of inches and centimeters as actual units of measurement
# [06:22] <SamB_MacG5> though obviously desktop browsers might have trouble ...
# [06:22] <SamB_MacG5> not so sure there
# [06:22] <tiglionabbit> either that or say that if anyone was actually relying on the stupid definition those had before they are a fool and deserve to have their site break, because they probably intended them to be correct anyway.
# [06:23] <tiglionabbit> it would be awesome if inches and centimeters worked correctly in print, too
# [06:24] <SamB_MacG5> don't they?
# [06:24] <tiglionabbit> I don't know
# [06:24] <tiglionabbit> I know the spec defines inches and centimeters in pixels though, which is retarded :P
# [06:25] <tiglionabbit> there is clear evidence that using pixels to measure things is not going to scale. I mean, we've already resorted to lying about how many pixels we're displaying on retina devices
# [06:25] <tiglionabbit> it's at the point where sometimes a pixel is one pixel, but sometimes it's two, and sometimes it's one and a half
# [06:25] <tiglionabbit> and that is pretty messed up
# [06:25] <SamB_MacG5> users don't usually much like it if you try to use real inches though, either ...
# [06:25] <tiglionabbit> why not?
# [06:26] <SamB_MacG5> well, not on desktops anyway
# [06:26] <tiglionabbit> so I understand that there is a problem when you start zooming things, but I'd assume we're talking about 100% zoom here
# [06:27] <tiglionabbit> and that mobile devices have their virtual viewport, so the inches would have to apply to the virtual document and not the real viewport in that case. That way they'd work gracefully if you set the viewport meta tags to match your device width
# [06:27] <tiglionabbit> but yeah, is there no proposal in the works for this? Should I start one?
# [06:28] <tiglionabbit> I've never proposed stuff before, but I feel like this is a pretty obvious enhancement that anyone who does reactive websites will appreciate
# [06:30] <roc> CSS pixels are well defined and they are not screen pixels
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# [06:31] <tiglionabbit> roc: ok. so?
# [06:31] <roc> for one thing, they're defined in such a way that a CSS inch == a physical inch in print
# [06:32] <tiglionabbit> oh wait really?
# [06:32] <tiglionabbit> we're redefining pixels so they mach the definition of an inch?
# [06:32] <tiglionabbit> oh in print
# [06:32] <tiglionabbit> but not on a physical device
# [06:32] <roc> "we"?
# [06:32] <tiglionabbit> no physical device does this right
# [06:32] <tiglionabbit> we as in the people who make the specs
# [06:33] <SamB_MacG5> there is no "right"
# [06:33] <roc> the CSS definition of px has remained mostly unchanged for the last 15 years
# [06:33] <SamB_MacG5> not on screen ;-)
# [06:33] <SamB_MacG5> wait, they had already fixed the px:in ratio in '97?
# [06:34] <tiglionabbit> roc: no it hasn't. Until mobile devices came about, pixels were pixels
# [06:34] <roc> no
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# [06:34] <tiglionabbit> now they're not pixels anymore. They're often bigger than pixels, but zoomed out
# [06:34] <roc> in CSS1 "px" was already defined in terms of a visual angle
# [06:35] <SamB_MacG5> roc: how do you tell how far the user is from the screen?
# [06:35] <roc> you guess
# [06:35] <tiglionabbit> how come everything in CSS has to be so obtuse? :P
# [06:36] <roc> SamB_MacG5: the more recent change (but we're still talking a few years ago) was to redefine "in" to be defined by a visual angle instead of a physical inch
# [06:36] <SamB_MacG5> welcome to the wonderful world of computing
# [06:36] <tiglionabbit> people are generally the same distance from their screen no matter what device they are using
# [06:36] <roc> that is not true
# [06:36] <tiglionabbit> so I see no reason why real inches and centimeters shouldn't be used
# [06:36] <roc> most people keep their desktop monitors around arms length. No-one uses a phone at arm's length.
# [06:36] <SamB_MacG5> I'm pretty sure I hold my phone a lot closer than I sit to my desktop screens ...
# [06:37] <SamB_MacG5> and the TV is several times further yet
# [06:37] <roc> exaclty
# [06:37] <SamB_MacG5> (though, granted, it's something like 320x240 ...)
# [06:38] <tiglionabbit> I don't think mobile browsers actually get this right though...
# [06:38] <tiglionabbit> they either use real pixels, double-pixels, or 1.5 pixels
# [06:38] <SamB_MacG5> well, there are practical considerations
# [06:39] <roc> some of them don't get it right, and everyone uses approximations
# [06:39] <SamB_MacG5> like, trying to avoid really lousy image scaling
# [06:39] <SamB_MacG5> simpler ratios help there
# [06:40] <roc> but making 1px look approximately the right size even if that means using more than 1 device pixel per CSS px is entirely in the spirit of the CSS spec
# [06:41] <SamB_MacG5> of course, your point about making button sizes fit fingers is valid
# [06:41] <roc> for that, we need a different unit
# [06:42] <SamB_MacG5> (... but how do you know the size of the user's finger?)
# [06:42] <roc> in Gecko we have a "mozmm" unit for that. It's physical mm for the few cases where you need physical mm. Touch interfaces is one.
# [06:43] <SamB_MacG5> maybe it should be called "thumb" ;-P
# [06:43] <SamB_MacG5> (different unit, obviously ...)
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# [06:44] <tiglionabbit> omg there is a real unit?
# [06:44] <roc> it's pretty hard for the browser to figure out the user's finger size so might as well use mm and make it the Web dev's problem :-)
# [06:45] <roc> there isn't a standard unit yet, but I think mozmm should be standardized
# [06:45] <roc> although I'm a bit afraid people will use it for the wrong thing
# [06:45] <SamB_MacG5> hmm, I suppose if everyone is going to claim to be Mozilla 5.0 anyway you might as well ...
# [06:45] <roc> it should only be used when you need something to be "life sized"
# [06:46] <tiglionabbit> what's the wrong thing?
# [06:46] <tiglionabbit> I would use it for buttons
# [06:46] <SamB_MacG5> put a picture of a city-wrecking lizard on it
# [06:46] <tiglionabbit> and font sizes
# [06:46] <roc> not font sizes
# [06:46] <tiglionabbit> why not?
# [06:46] <SamB_MacG5> no! not font sizes!
# [06:46] <SamB_MacG5> that's about eyes, not fingers
# [06:46] <tiglionabbit> don't you want fonts to be readable in any resolution?
# [06:46] <roc> it should only be used when you need to match the size of a physical object
# [06:46] <roc> independent of the viewing distance
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# [06:47] <roc> what Sam said
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# [07:40] <annevk_> "Liberal handling of previously illegal strings as IRIs has some security implications that should be examined carefully; this is not like content parsing and style sheet application."
# [07:40] <annevk_> uhuh ...
# [07:41] <annevk_> I guess that's my cue for giving up on that discussion
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# [08:12] <MikeSmith> annevk_: other dude in that thread is arguing that what he calls the "fixing algorithm" should be in different spec, and that's exactly what we already have, so I'm having a hard time understanding what else they want.
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# [08:21] <JonathanNeal> In CSS, what's the difference between continuous media and paged media?
# [08:25] <annevk_> MikeSmith: it's not exactly a "fixing algorithm" though
# [08:25] <annevk_> MikeSmith: "fixing" is the same misperception people have about the HTML parser
# [08:27] <MikeSmith> annevk_: yeah that's why I put it in quotes there
# [08:27] <MikeSmith> annevk_: clearly there are a whole bunch of misperceptions from commenters in that discussion
# [08:27] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: paged media has pages similar to PDF or whatever
# [08:27] <MikeSmith> page breaks
# [08:28] <JonathanNeal> Oh, I see.
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# [08:29] <JonathanNeal> so queries are suposed to work within the page breaks in paged media?
# [08:30] <Hixie_> annevk_: a lot of the confusion i've seen comes from people not understanding that you haven't defined conformance criteria yet. (We had the same thing with HTML parsing for a long time)
# [08:31] <annevk_> yeah, I need to do that and update the terminology so we can start using it in other specs
# [08:38] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: dunno what kind of queries you mean but nothing else should really be effected by whatever rules you have to define page breaks
# [08:39] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: you know don't define explicit page breaks in your markup, you make rules saying, break before every H2 or whatever
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# [08:39] <JonathanNeal> "The ‘width’ media feature describes the width of the targeted display area of the output device. For continuous media, this is the width of the viewport (as described by CSS2, section 9.1.1 [CSS21]) including the size of a rendered scroll bar (if any). For paged media, this is the width of the page box (as described by CSS2, section 13.2 [CSS21])."
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# [08:40] <MikeSmith> ah
# [08:40] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: I don't know what the "page box" is so I guess I should shut up
# [08:40] <tiglionabbit> it is what it sounds like
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# [08:41] <MikeSmith> but I'm not sure how much of the paged-media stuff anybody has actually implemented
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# [09:17] <MikeSmith> trying to figure out what's up with https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13409
# [09:17] <MikeSmith> "Defining Entity references for characters in XHTML"
# [09:18] <MikeSmith> maybe would help if David Carlisle came on IRC here to talk about it
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# [09:20] <hallvors> annevk_: yt?
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# [09:20] <annevk> hallvors: yeah
# [09:21] <zcorpan> "On the other hand, caches that don't assume "Vary: User-Agent" are already completely broken on the web when they sit between multiple users using multiple browsers and the rest of the web...." http://www.w3.org/mid/507D94AB.3000207@mit.edu
# [09:21] <hallvors> quick question on XHR spec:
# [09:21] <zcorpan> this is why there should be a spec requiring such things
# [09:21] <annevk> zcorpan: you mean like in the HTTP spec?
# [09:21] <zcorpan> yeah
# [09:21] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, I did Google "anolis", but I vaguely recalled there were two versions and the fork was what was needed to build. Once I actually saw the search results I saw you retired your version in favor of the fork, though.
# [09:22] <annevk> zcorpan: https://twitter.com/robinberjon/status/255307260375494656
# [09:22] <hallvors> in "infrastructure for send() method", there is a section on sending events that confuses me a bit
# [09:22] <hallvors> Below 7. If the upload complete flag is unset, follow these substeps
# [09:22] <hallvors> it talks about "Fire a progress event named *event*"
# [09:23] <zcorpan> maybe i'll just file an issue on httpbis and see what happens
# [09:23] <hallvors> Firing an event named event doesn't make much sense so I guess this is an accident of editing ;-)
# [09:24] <annevk> it's a variable and does make sense
# [09:24] <zcorpan> how does one file issues on httpbis?
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# [09:24] <annevk> zcorpan: email the mailing list stating it's a new issue
# [09:25] <annevk> zcorpan: we keep track of some stuff here: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTTP
# [09:25] <hallvors> mm.. ok, but where is its value defined in that case?
# [09:26] <annevk> by the calling algorithm
# [09:26] <annevk> "request error" is the generic case, "abort error" is a specific case for instance
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# [09:26] <hallvors> right
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# [09:26] <hallvors> got it
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# [09:27] <annevk> I plan on changing the "terminate send()" concept btw
# [09:27] <annevk> make it into a flag somehow because currently it's kinda broken
# [09:28] <annevk> same for "terminate abort()"
# [09:28] <annevk> but I see the W3C spec is still out of date
# [09:29] <hallvors> I should try to find the discussion that let to the AnonXMLHttpRequest constructor thing BTW - I don't understand why we can't just do xhr.withCredentials=false if we want an anonymous same-domain request..
# [09:30] <annevk> that still exposes Origin
# [09:30] <annevk> and Referer
# [09:30] <annevk> and AnonXMLHttpRequest is no more
# [09:30] <annevk> it's an argument to new XMLHttpRequest now
# [09:30] <annevk> hallvors: I recommend reading http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/
# [09:31] <hallvors> OK. So how do I detect if that functionality is supported?
# [09:31] <hallvors> (I'm looking at both versions)
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# [09:31] <hallvors> but as you can tell I haven't quite figured out the differences. I'll look at the github log again ;-)
# [09:32] <hallvors> if(XMLHttpRequest.length==1) // anon is supported ?
# [09:33] <AryehGregor> hallvors, does that actually work per spec and/or in implementations?
# [09:33] <AryehGregor> My recollection is .length is fairly useless for feature-testing both in the spec and in implementations.
# [09:33] <zcorpan> annevk: emailed and added to the wiki
# [09:34] <annevk> not sure if you can feature-test it, not all new functionality can unfortunately
# [09:34] <hallvors> .length is currently 0 in Opera, so it might work :-p
# [09:34] <zcorpan> .length in opera is usually 0 even for methods that support more arguments
# [09:35] <zcorpan> for DOM stuff i mean
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# [09:35] <hallvors> we have lots of older stuff testing .length on functions - but only or ECMA stuff I guess
# [09:36] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, IE too, I believe.
# [09:36] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: oh? didn't know that
# [09:36] <AryehGregor> And I think the spec says optional arguments don't count toward .length.
# [09:36] <AryehGregor> And I think maybe WebKit?
# [09:36] <AryehGregor> So it will only work in Gecko and only because it's nonstandard, IIRC.
# [09:36] * AryehGregor looks for the Gecko bug
# [09:37] <AryehGregor> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=793151
# [09:38] <AryehGregor> Ah, Gecko's about to match the spec so that .length is totally useless for feature-testing in all browsers.
# [09:38] <AryehGregor> Hurrah.
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# [09:38] <zcorpan> woah, i thought webkit did this
# [09:38] <zcorpan> quick testing gives 0 :-(
# [09:38] <AryehGregor> hallvors, I believe the issue is that ECMAScript does make .length include optional arguments, now that ES has the concept of optional arguments.
# [09:38] <hallvors> Who would rely on some privacy feature that can't be feature-tested?
# [09:38] <hallvors> annevk: can send() for a synchronous test still throw the TimeoutError?
# [09:38] <AryehGregor> Although maybe that should just be changed before it sticks.
# [09:39] <AryehGregor> hallvors, well, you can try using the extra argument, and abort if it throws.
# [09:39] <zcorpan> yeah let's fix .length
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# [09:39] <AryehGregor> Passing too many arguments should cause implementations to throw.
# [09:39] <zcorpan> no
# [09:39] <AryehGregor> Oh, it doesn't?
# [09:39] <hallvors> no
# [09:39] <zcorpan> extra arguments are silently ignored
# [09:39] <annevk> hallvors: in workers
# [09:39] <AryehGregor> Yay.
# [09:40] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, if you want to change the spec, why don't you comment on that Gecko bug asking that we not change our behavior to match the spec?
# [09:40] <AryehGregor> (I mean, I could too, I guess)
# [09:40] <hallvors> aha - so webworkers is what all those "when there is an associated document" clauses are about
# [09:40] <zcorpan> the spec matches gecko, right?
# [09:40] <zcorpan> i'd like everyone else to match gecko :-)
# [09:40] <AryehGregor> The spec matches the behavior of Gecko that just got r+ and will land whenever Ms2ger gets around to landing all his pending patches next.
# [09:41] <AryehGregor> The old behavior of Gecko is what we want (optional arguments do count toward .length).
# [09:41] <AryehGregor> Wait, I just confused myself.
# [09:41] <zcorpan> you confused me too :-P
# [09:41] <AryehGregor> I'm sick, so I'm not totally coherent right now.
# [09:41] <AryehGregor> I mean, the point is that Gecko's current behavior is the useful one, and it's about to change to match the spec, which is not useful.
# [09:41] <AryehGregor> I think.
# [09:42] <zcorpan> the spec says optional arguments are included in length?
# [09:42] * hallvors never really found .length very useful in the first place..
# [09:43] <AryehGregor> The spec says optional arguments are *not* included in .length, so adding an optional argument doesn't change .length.
# [09:43] <AryehGregor> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-operations
# [09:43] <AryehGregor> "Return the length of the shortest argument list of the entries in S."
# [09:43] <zcorpan> just found it
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# [09:44] <AryehGregor> Optional arguments to functions are new in ES6, aren't they?
# [09:44] <zcorpan> but now i need to understand the effective overload set
# [09:44] <AryehGregor> Just pretend it means "the set of all possible overloads of this function".
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# [09:44] <AryehGregor> Including different overloads for optional or variable arguments.
# [09:45] <AryehGregor> So f(x, optional y) would have f(x) and f(x, y) in the overload set.
# [09:45] <hallvors> annevk: why is withCredentials not allowed set for sync requests? (except in workers)
# [09:45] <AryehGregor> (understanding the concept of the effective overload set is generally one of the primary stumbling-blocks for people who haven't studied WebIDL closely :) )
# [09:45] <AryehGregor> hallvors, I'm guessing because we hate sync XHR and want it to die a fiery death, so we refuse to add new features to it.
# [09:46] <AryehGregor> (except in workers, where sync APIs are fine)
# [09:46] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: so optional arguments do not get counted per spec for "length"?
# [09:46] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, correct.
# [09:46] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: is that the useful behavior?
# [09:46] <AryehGregor> No.
# [09:46] <zcorpan> ok
# [09:46] <AryehGregor> It makes .length completely useless.
# [09:46] <AryehGregor> We might as well just make it 0, which is what most implementations do anyway.
# [09:47] <zcorpan> i can file a spec bug
# [09:47] <hallvors> AryehGregor: how ... emotional ;-)
# [09:47] <AryehGregor> http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=harmony:parameter_default_values
# [09:47] <AryehGregor> "The length property of a function should be updated to not include optional parameters.
# [09:47] <AryehGregor> — Erik Arvidsson 2010/11/05 22:37"
# [09:47] <AryehGregor> I asked heycam and he said the reason he did it was to match ES6.
# [09:47] <AryehGregor> But I think we should just change ES6, right?
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# [09:49] <zcorpan> ah. was there any rationale for IE6's decision?
# [09:49] <zcorpan> er
# [09:49] <zcorpan> ES6
# [09:49] <AryehGregor> Not on that page.
# [09:49] <AryehGregor> You could ask Erik Arvidsson why he said that.
# [09:49] <AryehGregor> I don't know if there were mailing list discussions etc.
# [09:49] <hallvors> annevk: "if the document cannot be serialized an "InvalidStateError" exception is thrown"
# [09:49] <AryehGregor> By his name, he probably works for your employer. :)
# [09:49] <hallvors> I think that's a normative statement
# [09:49] <AryehGregor> No, Google, it seems.
# [09:49] <hallvors> Aryeh: he's at Google AFAIK
# [09:50] <AryehGregor> I guess Opera can't employ *everyone* in the world with a Scandinavian name.
# [09:50] <hallvors> I found it a bit confusing that it's in a "note"
# [09:51] <hallvors> Isn't it better to add it to the previous paragraph?
# [09:51] <AryehGregor> hallvors, it's part of the "serialize" algorithm, I'm guessing.
# [09:51] <AryehGregor> Oh, except that that's underdefined.
# [09:51] <AryehGregor> http://domparsing.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-serialize-xml
# [09:52] <AryehGregor> Ah, this case in defined if you follow all the breadcrumbs: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-xhtml-syntax.html#xml-fragment-serialization-algorithm
# [09:52] <AryehGregor> So "serialize" is here: http://domparsing.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-serialize
# [09:52] <AryehGregor> Which refers you to here: http://domparsing.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-serialize-xml
# [09:52] <AryehGregor> Which in the document case refers you to here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-xhtml-syntax.html#xml-fragment-serialization-algorithm
# [09:52] <AryehGregor> Which includes various cases that throw.
# [09:53] <AryehGregor> In web specs as in programming languages, if you invoke an algorithm that throws, the exception propagates upward.
# [09:53] <hallvors> OK, thanks :)
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# [09:55] <hallvors> spec says username/password are always ignored for CORS - what about asking remote site if it accepts an Authenticate header instead?
# [09:55] <hallvors> (that's what happens if you set Authenticate manually with setRequestHeader(), ight? - why force authors who need this functionality to do it the harder way?)
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# [09:57] <hallvors> hm.. the whatwg version doesn't say that anymore
# [09:57] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, es-discuss is the list to search for discussions of optional parameters and length, right?
# [09:58] <AryehGregor> hallvors, the only maintained XHR spec is at whatwg.org. All others are out-of-date.
# [09:58] <zcorpan> i guess, i was going to send an email to public-script-coord without searching for prior discussions :-P
# [09:58] <AryehGregor> Ah, public-script-coord.
# [09:58] <AryehGregor> I'm filing a WebIDL bug, so I want links to prior discussions if there are any.
# [09:59] <zcorpan> if i send my email you can point to that :-)
# [09:59] <AryehGregor> Is ES6 version-controlled somewhere such that I can search for when the relevant requirement was added?
# [10:00] <AryehGregor> Hmm, public-script-coord is quite low-traffic.
# [10:00] <AryehGregor> I wonder if it's worth joining.
# [10:00] * zcorpan sent
# [10:00] <zcorpan> i think it also has a pretty good signal/noise ratio
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# [10:07] <hallvors> annevk: I'm trying to figure out where the spec says that user / pass arguments add to author request headers.
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# [10:09] <hallvors> (because that's the way to spec that an Authenticate: header generated from the user password arguments will require a preflight - AFAIK?)
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# [10:11] <annevk> hallvors: sync requests are intentionally crippled
# [10:12] <annevk> hallvors: it's a note because the normative statement is made elsewhere
# [10:12] <annevk> hallvors: we don't define what serialize means, DOM Parsing does
# [10:13] <annevk> hallvors: yeah, the user/password restriction I removed recently as it was bogus
# [10:13] <hallvors> I've seen the change in the github log
# [10:13] <hallvors> 6 days ago, so I'm sort of catching up with your thinking maybe ;)
# [10:14] <hallvors> but where exactly does it say that giving user, password in open() will require a CORS preflight and acceptance?
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# [10:15] <hallvors> I expect that to happen but I don't understand where the spec says it must..
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# [10:16] <hallvors> maybe open() algorithm should add an authorize: header to author request headers?
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# [10:19] <hallvors> (BTW, it would be nice if giving user/pass in open() would make the implementation send the Authorize header immediately, rather than waiting for a 401 first.. Sort of, if I supply user name and password, it's my intention that they are sent. I guess that would violate some HTTP rules though?)
# [10:19] <annevk> yeah
# [10:19] <annevk> that seems unwise, you don't want to give away credentials if they're not asked for
# [10:19] <annevk> I guess unless you want to implement authentication on your own...
# [10:20] <hallvors> but it also seems a bit wasteful to send a potentially large entity body, then get 401, and re-send.. :-p
# [10:20] <annevk> I had the idea of adding a flag for that at some point, but it has not happened yet
# [10:20] <hallvors> Well, if I do setRequestHeader('Authenticate', .. ) will it be sent immediately?
# [10:21] <annevk> dunno, I'm happy for you to figure out how HTTP authentication and XHR interact
# [10:21] <hallvors> and *why* is sync requests "intentionally" crippled?
# [10:21] <hallvors> Sure, I'll investigate :)
# [10:21] <AryehGregor> hallvors, because sync I/O or network access freezes all script for an indeterminate time period.
# [10:22] <AryehGregor> It's terrible for perf.
# [10:22] <AryehGregor> localStorage too.
# [10:22] <hallvors> I guess I can clone your spec on github and send you some pull requests if I figure out something interesting ;-)
# [10:22] <AryehGregor> So new features are exclusively async, except in workers, since those don't freeze anything but themselves.
# [10:22] <hallvors> isn't that the script author's problem? :-p
# [10:22] <annevk> hallvors: yeah, that'd be sweet
# [10:22] <AryehGregor> Pages that don't work well are everyone's problem.
# [10:22] <annevk> hallvors: if you want I can give you access to all WHATWG specs
# [10:23] <AryehGregor> The idea of the web platform is you don't have to know what you're doing to write web pages that work okay. :)
# [10:23] <annevk> hallvors: but we handle pull requests too
# [10:23] <hallvors> LOL
# [10:23] <hallvors> annevk: sending you pull requests is fine for now.
# [10:24] <zcorpan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2012OctDec/0115.html
# [10:25] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, to be fair, simply varying on User-Agent does make caches virtually useless.
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# [10:25] <zcorpan> yet bz said that caches that don't do it are broken?
# [10:26] <AryehGregor> Sure, but broken is sometimes better than useless.
# [10:26] <annevk> I guess if you don't do it for images and video content you're still fine
# [10:26] <AryehGregor> Arguably, any kind of transparent proxy is broken.
# [10:26] <AryehGregor> But sometimes they're necessarily for performance.
# [10:26] <AryehGregor> Back in the day, Wikimedia hacked its Squids to vary more intelligently than the default.
# [10:27] <AryehGregor> IIRC, it was based on the fact that different browsers format their Accept-Encoding headers differently, so simply telling it to vary on Accept-Encoding would fragment the cache.
# [10:27] <annevk> I doubt all the sites that set custom XHR headers also set Vary accordingly
# [10:27] <hallvors> open() has a list of state stuff it resets (step 18) - but some stuff isn't mentioned, like the error flag, upload complete and upload events flags. Does calling open() again preserve previously defined upload event listeners, for example?
# [10:27] <AryehGregor> Instead, they hacked it to parse the header and vary only based on whether the thing they were interested in was present.
# [10:28] <AryehGregor> But let's be honest, sites vary their content based on all kinds of things and don't bother sending Vary headers.
# [10:28] <annevk> hallvors: it doesn't reset event listeners
# [10:28] <AryehGregor> Caches are never going to really be correct.
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# [10:29] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: i guess that's a fair point
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# [10:29] <AryehGregor> In any event, it is absolutely true that if you vary based on User-Agent, you may as well not have a cache, because every two people with a different minor browser version or different set of plugins installed or heaven knows what will get a different cache entry.
# [10:29] <annevk> hallvors: error flag is unset by send() itself
# [10:29] <AryehGregor> Even if User-Agent just consisted of one of the five strings "ie"/"firefox"/"chrome"/"safari"/"opera", you just completely murdered the entire tail of your cache.
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# [10:30] <AryehGregor> For commonly-used resources you're now making five times as many requests as before, and for uncommon resources you may as well not bother caching them.
# [10:30] <AryehGregor> Even fragmenting your cache in two is pretty disastrous.
# [10:30] <AryehGregor> I know all this stuff from my Wikipedia experience.
# [10:31] <AryehGregor> We would sacrifice features and spend tons of time left and right to avoid fragmenting any caches for anonymous users.
# [10:31] <AryehGregor> (i.e., not logged in)
# [10:31] <annevk> hallvors: I guess the upload complete flag should be unset when the error flag is unset
# [10:31] <AryehGregor> And if you logged in, suddenly your performance dropped like a stone because you started missing caches everywhere.
# [10:31] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: feel free to edit http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTTP#Assume_Vary:_User-Agent
# [10:32] <annevk> hallvors: same for the upload events flag
# [10:32] <annevk> hallvors: and then step 6/7 need to be switched
# [10:32] <annevk> hallvors: will fix
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# [10:35] <hallvors> hm.. if open() doesn't reset any event listeners (which seems the right thing to do), the upload events flag can just be set where it is currently set in send()
# [10:35] <hallvors> I think
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# [10:36] * hallvors thinks Wikipedia is an outlier, in terms of request volume / budget and resources :-)
# [10:36] <annevk> hallvors: https://github.com/whatwg/xhr/commit/e439e4b6be1277e3fde8951b39e95bec59e89b78
# [10:36] <AryehGregor> hallvors, also in terms of cacheability.
# [10:37] <annevk> hallvors: sure, but if it's already set, and people removed the event listeners after the first time invoking send(), it needs to be unset the second time
# [10:37] <AryehGregor> If you think about it, Wikipedia is one of the few major websites where all important content is completely cacheable on the server side.
# [10:37] <AryehGregor> Not by clients, because it might change, but it doesn't vary per-user unless you're logged in.
# [10:37] <AryehGregor> And 95%+ of users aren't logged in.
# [10:38] <hallvors> fix looks good :)
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# [10:56] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, commented.
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# [10:57] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, I think when bz said such caches are completely broken, he meant that they're guaranteed to break some pages, not that they're never desirable.
# [10:57] <AryehGregor> Oh, no, he did say they should set it.
# [10:59] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: thanks. can i send your comment as a reply to ietf-http-wg?
# [10:59] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, sure.
# [10:59] <AryehGregor> I'm posting something to public-webapps now.
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# [11:08] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, posted.
# [11:09] <zcorpan> thanks
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# [11:26] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, I'll never pass up a chance to tell bz he's wrong. ;)
# [11:26] <AryehGregor> (although there's always the lingering unease that maybe he's right after all)
# [11:26] <AryehGregor> (I'll see what he says)
# [11:26] <jgraham> AryehGregor: You know that will end badly, right?
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# [11:33] <AryehGregor> Yeah, it generally does.
# [11:33] <AryehGregor> Doesn't stop me from trying, though.
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# [12:13] <annevk> AryehGregor: you okay with naming specification-data "xref" and hosting it under /whatwg too?
# [12:13] <AryehGregor> annevk, sure.
# [12:14] <annevk> AryehGregor: I'm also going to change the Makefile's of most specs to just point to ../xref/ instead of ./data/
# [12:14] <AryehGregor> annevk, interesting.
# [12:14] <AryehGregor> Sounds okay to me.
# [12:14] <AryehGregor> It would also be nice if the makefiles updated the database.
# [12:15] <AryehGregor> Although probably we wouldn't want them to do it synchronously.
# [12:15] <AryehGregor> Especially since git tends to like to synchronously run git-gc for like three minutes once in a while.
# [12:16] <annevk> AryehGregor: you mean did a commit?
# [12:16] <annevk> would be nice yeah...
# [12:16] <AryehGregor> What?
# [12:20] <annevk> well the Makefile updates the local database
# [12:21] <AryehGregor> Oh, I meant pull, not push.
# [12:21] <AryehGregor> Actually, it would make more sense if we hooked git pull so it pulled the data repo too.
# [12:22] <AryehGregor> Auto-commit/push is a bad idea, because you might run the makefile on several iterations locally and not want to save them . . .
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# [12:49] <annevk> hmm, so Anolis apparently has data hardcoded somewhere?!
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# [12:51] <annevk> anolis annevk$ grep -r "data/" *
# [12:51] <annevk> anolislib/processes/refs.py: list = open("data/references.json", "rb")
# [12:51] <annevk> anolislib/processes/xspecxref.py: manifest = open("data/specs.json", "rb")
# [12:51] <annevk> anolislib/processes/xspecxref.py: file = open("data/xrefs/" + v, "rb")
# [12:51] <annevk> build/lib/anolislib/processes/refs.py: list = open("data/references.json", "rb")
# [12:51] <annevk> build/lib/anolislib/processes/xspecxref.py: manifest = open("data/specs.json", "rb")
# [12:51] <annevk> build/lib/anolislib/processes/xspecxref.py: file = open("data/xrefs/" + v, "rb")
# [12:51] <annevk> ffffffffuuuu
# [12:59] <annevk> I wonder how Ms2ger wants to fix that
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# [13:08] <hsivonen> It annoys me that the long “Plan 2014” is very vague on the most interesting thing: the relationship with the WHATWG HTML spec
# [13:08] <hsivonen> the Chairs could inspire trust by being less mysterious about such a central point
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# [13:16] <jgraham> hsivonen: Probably mentioning it reduces the chance of consensus whatever you say
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# [13:16] <jgraham> So being vauge seems like a good strategy from their point of view regardless of whether they have good intentions or not
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# [13:23] <hsivonen> jgraham: consensus by vagueness is a terrible way to do things. It’s how the WAI reaches consensus.
# [13:24] <hsivonen> so then we get to have permathreads at the HTML WG, because two editors of one WAI spec have opposite understanding of what their vague text means.
# [13:25] <jgraham> I didn't endorse it. But I'm saying that I can see how it would be a natural outcome of a consensus based process
# [13:25] <hsivonen> jgraham: yes. and it had occurred to me.
# [13:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: note that I didn’t wonder *why* above
# [13:26] <jgraham> Fair enough
# [13:26] <hsivonen> it’s pretty clear that by keeping the intentions a mystery, there’s nothing concrete to object to
# [13:27] <hsivonen> that doesn’t stop me from objecting to keeping the intentions a mystery
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# [13:32] <jgraham> I think we are agreeing
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# [13:55] <zcorpan> should crossOrigin be "limited to only known values"?
# [13:56] <annevk> think so
# [13:57] <zcorpan> currently crossorigin="" means anonymous but crossOrigin returns "" for both that and missing attribute (which maps to the No CORS state)
# [13:59] <hsivonen> clearly, the HTML WG needs more participants objecting to keeping the Chair intentions secret to make the mystery cause less consensus than stating the intentions
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# [14:57] <hsivonen> Sam’s post is rather remarkable in the length it goes into in order to highlight evidence of past action while carefully refraining from stating future intentions.
# [14:59] <annevk> why are you still bothering? is there a point?
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# [15:02] <hsivonen> annevk: the point is assessing how much to participate from now myself and what advice to give to others on the topic of participation
# [15:02] <hsivonen> s/now/now on/
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# [15:22] <hallvors> If WHATWG cooks good stuff, implementors will eat it, and the HTMLWG will want to include the recipes in its cookbook collection.
# [15:23] <smaug____> is it common to use outerHTML to remove a node from its parent?
# [15:23] <smaug____> since it feels really odd
# [15:23] <smaug____> and is slower than other ways
# [15:24] <jgraham> That is true. But if some chefs are working with the HTMLWG cookbook and some with the WHATWG cookbook, and they are supposed to be serving the same meal, but the books sometimes have totally different recipies, there will be tears in the dining room, and people will go to a different resturant
# [15:25] <jgraham> smaug____: Dunno. Does jQuery do it?
# [15:26] <smaug____> there was just one bug report related to mutationobservers in that cas
# [15:26] <smaug____> e
# [15:26] <smaug____> but this reminds me
# [15:26] <smaug____> has anyone implemented the new stuff in Element
# [15:27] <smaug____> remove() etc
# [15:27] <smaug____> before and after are still wrong IMO
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# [15:50] <jgraham> krijnhuman: Did I ask you about logging #testing before?
# [15:51] <jgraham> (on the w3c server)
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# [15:51] <Ms2ger> smaug____, I've got a patch for remove(), btw
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# [16:18] <krijnhuman> jgraham: can't remember..
# [16:18] <krijnhuman> Yes :)
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# [16:19] <krijnh> Hm, dropped out of that channel 4 months ago..
# [16:21] <Ms2ger> krijnh, and #developers? :)
# [16:21] <krijnh> Moz?
# [16:22] <krijnh> Ah, yeah
# [16:22] <krijnh> That's a funny story
# [16:25] <Ms2ger> Heh
# [16:26] <krijnh> Hard disk had 0kb free space
# [16:26] <krijnh> Apparently then it stops logging
# [16:26] <Ms2ger> Neat
# [16:26] <krijnh> Because of these logs, I had to throw away old photos
# [16:26] <krijnh> Hope you're happy now!
# [16:27] <Ms2ger> Very :)
# [16:27] <krijnh> And /irc-logs/ is almost 1gb now
# [16:27] <krijnh> Tee hee
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# [16:43] <crocket> There's a table with a specific class or id.
# [16:43] <crocket> I want to set border to 1 for table, td, and th of that table.
# [16:43] <crocket> But putting id or class in every td and th is a hassle.
# [16:44] <crocket> How can I bypass that hassle?
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# [17:05] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: i recall you converted my worker tests to testharness.js, is that right? if so, where are the new tests? (the ones on w3c-test.org seems to use jsframework.js)
# [17:06] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, I started
# [17:06] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: i see. is the work-in-progress available online? :-)
# [17:07] <Ms2ger> All the files that aren't called 001.html in your submission folder :)
# [17:07] <Ms2ger> ./constructors/Worker, and some in ./constructors/SharedWorker:
# [17:07] <Ms2ger> Looks like I didn't get far :)
# [17:12] <zcorpan> ah. thanks
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# [17:13] <Ms2ger> Np
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# [19:16] <Tavp> hey guys, I have a DropDownList, but when I click to select an Item, it never selects the one that I clicked. No matter where I put a Dropdownlist on my page, it does not work the why it normaly does. Might it be something abou the select="selected"???
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# [19:29] <TabAtkins> A DropDownList sounds like something other than HTML, in which case I dunno.
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# [19:46] <hsivonen> os there a public list of AC reps?
# [19:46] <hsivonen> *is
# [19:51] <TabAtkins> I *think* there is? Well, maybe not public - it might be behind a member wall.
# [19:52] <hsivonen> huh. Florian Rivoal is listed as Invited Expert--not Opera Software in CSS
# [19:52] <jgraham> He left Opera
# [19:52] <hsivonen> oh
# [19:52] <jgraham> To do an MBA
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# [19:55] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: the list is here, but not public: https://www.w3.org/Member/ACList.php
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# [19:57] * hsivonen found https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=33280
# [19:58] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: thanks
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# [20:19] <volkmar> Hixie_: ping
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# [20:50] <Hixie_> volkmar: pong
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# [20:53] <volkmar> Hixie_: for @inputmode, you are recommanding latin-name for titlecase
# [20:53] <volkmar> sorry, latin-name is titlecase and you recommend it for names input
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# [20:54] <Hixie_> the spec recommends "latin-name" for cases where the page wants latin names to be input, it's not titlecase necessarily
# [20:54] <volkmar> Hixie_: but text fields that intend to receive titles (like movie title) should likely have this inputmode=latin-name
# [20:54] <Hixie_> e.g. i'd expect it to not uppercase the "v" in "Anne van Kesteren"
# [20:54] <Hixie_> movie titles are a use case that isn't currently handled; if it's a common one we can definitely add it
# [20:54] <Hixie_> latin-titlecase or some such
# [20:55] <Hixie_> i was thinking we should probably also add latin-prose-chat, which would be like -prose but with smiley input
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# [20:55] <volkmar> Hixie_: but then latin-name looks like more an input type than inputmode because you can easily image a contact picker to pick a contact's name
# [20:56] <volkmar> Hixie_: if you go with latin-titlecase, I wonder why bothering having hard to understand names
# [20:56] <volkmar> and just do latin-titlecase, latin-lowercase, etc.
# [20:56] <Hixie_> input types, input modes, and autocomplete types have a lot of similarities, indeed
# [20:56] <Hixie_> titlecase isn't the same as name
# [20:56] <Hixie_> as per the example above
# [20:56] <Hixie_> titlecase would do "Anne Van Kesteren", name would do "Anne van Kesteren"
# [20:57] <volkmar> Hixie_: unless this is autocompleted
# [20:57] <volkmar> I doubt that would be really doable
# [20:57] <volkmar> unless the keyboard goes back and remove the uppercase from the V knowing that "Van" should be "van" in Dutch name
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# [20:58] <Hixie_> (i'm just talking about inputmode, certainly a new input type that supports picking names from a contact list, or an autocomplete value, that supports picking names from relevant names possibly from the contact list, would also be able to do clever things. but that's another discussion.)
# [20:58] <Hixie_> doesn't have to be keyboard
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# [20:59] <Hixie_> e.g. speech recognition is done word-at-a-time or even phrase-at-a-time and could still be affected by this
# [20:59] <Hixie_> same with gesture writing like Swype or whatever it's called
# [21:01] <Hixie_> volkmar: at the end of the day, i see three things here for inputmode. One is, will anyone implement latin-name? If not, we should drop it. Another is, is there a use case for latin-titlecase? If so, we should add it. And the other is is there a use case for latin-prose-chat, in which case we should add that.
# [21:01] <Hixie_> volkmar: i have no strong opinion on either of these, and am happy to do any or all of them.
# [21:01] <volkmar> Hixie_: my problem is about implementing actually
# [21:01] <volkmar> Hixie_: as you know our implementation is different from what you spec'd
# [21:02] <volkmar> and we have to find a common ground
# [21:02] <volkmar> I would like to do that before Firefox Android with that feature goes in Beta channel and before Firefox OS ship (and we already branched)
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# [21:05] <volkmar> Hixie_: is iOS or Android implementing something allowing latin-name?
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# [21:05] <Hixie_> android has like a zillion possible combinations for its keyboard
# [21:05] <Hixie_> not sure about iOS
# [21:06] <Hixie_> i don't think anything in android yet supports doing "van" right out of the box, but i'd be surprised if it couldn't be implemented on top
# [21:07] <volkmar> Hixie_: my point is that if the main smartphone OS's don't have this implemented, that might mean there is no such use case
# [21:08] <volkmar> or putting that on the keyboard isn't the good solution
# [21:08] <Hixie_> there's obviously a use case for name input
# [21:08] <volkmar> Hixie_: yes, but I think autocompletion or a type would be the real solution
# [21:08] <Hixie_> there's use cases for tons of things that smartphone OSes doesn't implement
# [21:09] <Hixie_> type, autocomplete, and inputmode are orthogonal
# [21:09] <Hixie_> i don't disagree that a type would be interesting
# [21:09] <Hixie_> but it's a different discussion
# [21:09] <Hixie_> e.g. we have a tel inputmode and a tel input type and a tel autocomplete type
# [21:10] <volkmar> Hixie_: I think the tel inputmode is silly actually
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# [21:12] <Hixie_> volkmar: ok
# [21:12] <Hixie_> volkmar: not sure what to tell you
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# [21:13] <volkmar> Hixie_: I wanted to discuss about those latin-* values
# [21:13] <volkmar> right now, I feel like they are more listing use cases than behaviour but I wonder if we shouldn't have explicit values
# [21:14] <volkmar> latin-prose vs latin-autocapitalized for example
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# [21:15] <volkmar> hmm
# [21:15] <Hixie_> latin-autocapitalized (or rather, latin-titlecase, which is shorter) is a different use case / behaviour than latin-name, so i think they are sparate topics. But I'm happy to add -titlecase if it's something we should support, and i'm happy to drop -name if nobody is going to implement it.
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# [21:16] <volkmar> oh, by autocapitalized, I mean compared to latin-prose, which means capitalized at the beginning of each sentence
# [21:16] <Hixie_> latin-prose means more than just capitalise sentences, it means predict words, etc, too
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# [21:17] <volkmar> Hixie_: that's the 'latin' part in the value that does that, right?
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# [21:17] <volkmar> latin-* should predict words, afaiui
# [21:17] <Hixie_> no, 'latin' alone doesn't do word prediction. see the descriptions in the spec.
# [21:17] <Hixie_> (latin-name doesn't either)
# [21:17] <volkmar> Latin-script input in the user's preferred language(s), with some typing aids enabled (e.g. text prediction).
# [21:18] <Hixie_> (or rather, does, but from contact list rather than dictionary. or some such. it's up to the UA.)
# [21:18] <volkmar> there is a difference between text and word prediction?
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# [21:18] <Hixie_> the point is that the spec doesn't require any particular behaviour, this is up to the UA
# [21:18] <Hixie_> that's why we have to give use cases, not behaviour
# [21:20] <Hixie_> i have to head out. if you have feedback, please send it to the list or file a bug; if it's urgent let me know and i'll prioritise it
# [21:20] <volkmar> Hixie_: ok, thanks :)
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# Session Close: Thu Oct 18 00:00:00 2012

The end :)