/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-10-23 / end

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1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 23 00:00:00 2012
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:00] <annevk> tantek: submission as utf-8 with the page on which the submitted results might be shown not as utf-8 is a major no-no though
4. # [00:00] <annevk> tantek: which is why I think usage of accept-charset is a clear sign of something being broken too
5. # [00:00] * tantek googles for the equivalent with "multipage"
6. # [00:00] <Hixie> just stick multipage/ in front of the #
7. # [00:01] <Hixie> it autoredirects
8. # [00:01] <tantek> oh nice
9. # [00:01] <Hixie> http://whatwg.org/html#foo will redirect to 'foo' in the multipage copy
10. # [00:01] <tantek> wow that's a poorly named attribute
11. # [00:01] <Hixie> (or, use a browser that can handle the spec :-P )
12. # [00:01] <annevk> <form accept-charset> is like <link charset> or <script charset>, hacks for a bygone era
13. # [00:01] <tantek> "accept" to specify what you're *sending* ?
14. # [00:01] * Hixie points to the /topic
15. # [00:01] <jgraham> It's the charset the form accepts, obviously :p
16. # [00:02] <tantek> hey if we can rename IRI to URL, why can't we fix this? ;)
17. # [00:02] <Hixie> because software doesn't care what URLs are called, but does care about what attributes are called :-P
18. # [00:02] <jgraham> In other news, insofar as a list of "features at risk" makes sense at all (it doesn't) how did register*Handler get on it?
19. # [00:03] <annevk> tantek: the fix here is to just obsolete the attribute
20. # [00:03] <Hixie> i hope the Navigation algorithm and Window objects are "at risk"
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22. # [00:04] <jgraham> Hixie: No, but if one believed The Process I think they would be
23. # [00:04] <jgraham> I don't recall if the 2014 document tries to get around this somehow
24. # [00:04] <Hixie> my suggestion on this utf-8 thing, btw, is to wait until utf-8 is more like 90% of the web, and then remove all the charset nonsense and just require utf-8 everywhere
25. # [00:04] <Hixie> we're getting there
26. # [00:05] <jgraham> (I am not of the opinion that the right thing to do here is to demonstrate how silly the process is by gutting the spec)
27. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> Any clue what %age we're at already?
28. # [00:05] <annevk> Hixie: until then you can make it a wilful violation of the Encoding Standard? :-)
29. # [00:05] <Hixie> 2010 we were just under 50%, rising quickl
30. # [00:05] <Hixie> y
31. # [00:05] <Hixie> annevk: yup :-P
32. # [00:05] <Hixie> jgraham: we're long past the htmlwg doing "the right thing"
33. # [00:07] <tantek> is there a <meta> for setting accept-charset on forms in the document to utf-8 by default so that authors don't have to remember to specify it for every form explicitly?
34. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> Doesn't a document charset percolate to the form?
35. # [00:07] <say2joe> in reference to the recent url (spec) (http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attr-form-accept-charset), I've long been confused by the use of the LABEL element. Why is there such rampant use of including input elements within labels? Would it not be more semantic to use <label for="controlName">My label:</labe><input name="controlName" /> rather than <label><input /></label>?
36. # [00:07] <jgraham> Well it seems to me that whatever The Right Thing is, dropping features that have three mostly-interoperable implementations is rather obviously the wrong thing
37. # [00:07] <tantek> TabAtkins - my understanding is that it doesn't, and that forms are weird that way.
38. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> say2joe: What do you mean by "semantic"? The two are exactly equivalent.
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40. # [00:08] <jgraham> But I can't see that Opera (or anyone else!) has released their tests, so I will need to fix that
41. # [00:08] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
42. # [00:08] <say2joe> IMO, a label should be just a label… and, not include a control.
43. # [00:08] <say2joe> but people often omit the for attribute and wrap the label around an input control element.
44. # [00:08] <tantek> because it's easier to maintain
45. # [00:08] <tantek> no additional for/id attr to maintain
46. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> say2joe: Yes, and there's nothing wrong with that. Wrapping an input in a label is *exactly the same*, semantically, as using an id to target the label.
47. # [00:09] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.186.164) (Quit: othermaciej)
48. # [00:09] <Hixie> say2joe: it is defined as being equivalent in the spec
49. # [00:09] <say2joe> they both work, obviously, but I prefer to only include the label within a label element… since it is supposed to be just a label.
50. # [00:09] <Hixie> say2joe: it's not support to be just a label
51. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> You're allowed to do that. But there's nothing wrong with the other way.
52. # [00:09] <Hixie> say2joe: it's supposed to be a label and optionally the labeled element
53. # [00:09] <Hixie> s/support/supposed/
54. # [00:09] <say2joe> i was just hoping to get some feedback on why it seems the label element is so flexible.
55. # [00:09] <tantek> where does it say it's supposed to be "just a label"?
56. # [00:09] <tantek> citation?
57. # [00:09] <say2joe> Hixie: I understood (supposed). np
58. # [00:10] <Hixie> say2joe: it's flexible because that's more convenient :-)
59. # [00:10] <say2joe> uh… the element name is label.
60. # [00:10] <Hixie> the element name could be <pineapple>, that wouldn't change a single thing about its meaning :-)
61. # [00:10] <tantek> reasoning from element name failed in HTML long ago
62. # [00:10] <say2joe> i'm just inferring that it should be just a label.
63. # [00:10] <say2joe> tantek: good point.
64. # [00:10] <tantek> e.g. <address>
65. # [00:10] <Hixie> <hr>
66. # [00:10] <tantek> lol
67. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> say2joe: And several people, including the author of HTML5, are saying that your inference is wrong. ^_^
68. # [00:11] <say2joe> :) I'll drop the subject… but, i've brought this up to junior developers as my sense of properness… if one can be so bold.
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70. # [00:11] <annevk> tantek: document charset does set the <form> charset
71. # [00:11] <tantek> wherefrom that "sense of properness"?
72. # [00:11] <annevk> tantek: so you should just use <meta charset=utf-8>
73. # [00:11] <tantek> ok cool, thanks annevk
74. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Given the convenience of wrapping inputs in labels, and the fact that there is *absolutely nothing wrong with it*, I'd strongly recommend against teaching people that using for/id is the "correct" way to do it.
75. # [00:11] <say2joe> label (IMO) should just contain a label… that to me is proper… and more semantic.
76. # [00:12] <tantek> and yes, then it *is* odd to have pages which display in one charset and submit in another :/
77. # [00:12] <Hixie> say2joe: you have to read the spec to find out what elements mean... the element names have very little bearing on it
78. # [00:12] <Hixie> say2joe: imagine all the element names to be opaque strings
79. # [00:12] <tantek> what do you mean by more "proper" ?
80. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> say2joe: You keep using the word "semantic", but you're using it in a way that suggests you don't really understand the definition. ^_^
81. # [00:12] <say2joe> tantek: "label (IMO) should just contain a label… that to me is proper… and more semantic."
82. # [00:12] <tantek> TabAtkins - ob-princess-bride
83. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> say2joe: Semantics are just a contract between you, the page author, and the browser. A common language for you to communicate with the machine on the other end.
84. # [00:12] <say2joe> semantic means contextually appropriate (to me)
85. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> Nothing more, nothing less.
86. # [00:13] <Hixie> the "semantic" of an element is what the spec says the element means
87. # [00:13] <tantek> say2joe - I saw your statement about proper and semantic
88. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> <label> communicates the same thing to the browsers whether it's wrapped around an input or uses for/id to link itself manually.
89. # [00:13] <Hixie> not what the name makes it sounds like it should mean
90. # [00:13] <tantek> I'm still wondering what you mean by "proper"
91. # [00:13] <tantek> what values does it represent?
92. # [00:13] <tantek> or principles?
93. # [00:13] <Hixie> much like how "inflammable" doesn't mean the opposite of "flammable", despite it sounding like it should -- it means what the dictionary says it means
94. # [00:14] <GPHemsley> annevk: I don't suppose you could add me to the wiki administrators group?
95. # [00:14] <Hixie> wait, you reinstalled the wiki and aren't in the admin group?!
96. # [00:14] <Hixie> what are we doing to you
97. # [00:14] <tantek> different admin groups
98. # [00:14] <say2joe> I understand that both methodologies are in common use (perhaps, my preference, being less so). anyway, I've gotten the feedback I desired, I suppose.
99. # [00:14] <Hixie> ooh, new wiki is pretty
100. # [00:14] <jgraham> krijn: Your clock seems to be 10 minutes in the future
101. # [00:14] <annevk> GPHemsley: how do I do that?
102. # [00:14] <annevk> Hixie: GPHemsley found a backdoor I guess :)
103. # [00:15] <Hixie> GPHemsley: what's your username
104. # [00:15] <GPHemsley> Hixie: GPHemsley
105. # [00:15] <krijn> jgraham: problem?
106. # [00:15] <GPHemsley> :P
107. # [00:15] <Hixie> GPHemsley: done
108. # [00:15] <GPHemsley> thanks
109. # [00:16] <Hixie> dude, thank _you_
110. # [00:16] <GPHemsley> :)
111. # [00:16] <Hixie> seriously
112. # [00:16] <jgraham> Why isn't the wiki linked from whatwg.org?
113. # [00:17] <Hixie> it isn't?
114. # [00:17] <Hixie> oh, the boxes
115. # [00:17] <Hixie> i rotate them around irregularly
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117. # [00:17] <annevk> jgraham: FAQ/IRC are wiki links
118. # [00:17] <annevk> Hixie: could replace News with Wiki; blog is not maintained :/
119. # [00:17] <Hixie> hm yeah, we haven't blogged in a while
120. # [00:18] <jgraham> annevk: Yeah, OK but the front page isn't linked
121. # [00:18] <jgraham> Seems reasonable to link to the wiki under the title "Wiki"
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123. # [00:18] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
124. # [00:18] <Hixie> what should the text be below the link
125. # [00:19] <krijnh> 00:19:22
126. # [00:19] <jgraham> "Otherwise tantek gets grumpy"?
127. # [00:19] <Hixie> hah
128. # [00:19] <Hixie> reload
129. # [00:19] <Hixie> if anyone blogs let me know and i'll switch it back to the blog
130. # [00:20] <jgraham> You could just add an extra link :)
131. # [00:20] <tantek> hah - I'm not sure how useful it is to link wiki to wiki
132. # [00:20] <Hixie> don't want to have too many
133. # [00:20] <tantek> I mean, if everything is just moving to the wiki anyway...
134. # [00:09] <tantek> wouldn't that just be "home" ?
135. # [00:09] <groms> whattf.org is still hanging around :)
136. # [00:10] <krijnh> 00:10:01
137. # [00:10] <krijnh> #thereifixedit
138. # [00:10] <tantek> thanks krijnh
139. # [00:10] <annevk> tantek: I was not talking about moving the wiki from wiki.whatwg.org to whatwg.org; just /wiki/ to /
140. # [00:10] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@d54C38583.access.telenet.be) (Quit: Martijnc)
141. # [00:10] <tantek> how about dropping the subdomain instead?
142. # [00:11] <jgraham> Well on the screen I currently have, 9 links take up the same space as 10
143. # [00:11] <tantek> redirect wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/ to whatwg.org/wiki and serve it from there
144. # [00:11] <Hixie> ew
145. # [00:11] <tantek> subdomains are lame anyway
146. # [00:11] <tantek> hierarchy inversion and all that
147. # [00:11] <jgraham> You must hate html.spec.whatwg.org
148. # [00:11] <tantek> usually indicate of corporate org charts
149. # [00:11] <Hixie> putting aside the issue of subdomains being cooler than subdirectories, the more practical reason why we have subdomains is that we can more easily give people access to admin parts of the server
150. # [00:11] <tantek> jgraham, meh. github is nicer than mecurial
151. # [00:12] <Hixie> e.g. the way GPHemsley just updated the wiki
152. # [00:12] <tantek> right, subdomains are political
153. # [00:12] <tantek> they help you keep organizational silos
154. # [00:12] <jgraham> They are also nice from the point of view of the SOP
155. # [00:12] <jgraham> Although that might not be so important in this case
156. # [00:13] <groms> vhosts, lovely things
157. # [00:13] * jgraham is still failing to figure out the github vs mercurial comment
158. # [00:14] <jgraham> (it isn't even comparing two like entities)
159. # [00:14] * Hixie waves a svn flag quietly in the corner
160. # [00:15] <groms> sccs
161. # [00:16] * jgraham hopes it's the white flag of surrender
162. # [00:16] <Hixie> hey HTML is still done on subversion :-P
163. # [00:17] <jgraham> Not at the W3C :p
164. # [00:18] <jgraham> But I should be asleep. Good night / morning / afternoon, everyone.
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184. # [00:58] <Hixie> GPHemsley: everytime i read "republications" i read it as "republicans"
185. # [00:58] <Hixie> i've been reading too much politics news, clearly
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187. # [00:58] <GPHemsley> I had a similar experience :)
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190. # [01:09] <annevk> GPHemsley: there's also minor spin-offs; parts of HTML ended up in the DOM and the Encoding Standard
191. # [01:09] <annevk> (well actually, the latter has yet to happen fully)
192. # [01:10] <GPHemsley> annevk: If you have a revision number, feel free to put it in the list. I'll investigate it later.
193. # [01:10] <GPHemsley> (Right now I'm looking for some good extensions to install on the wiki. :) )
194. # [01:10] <annevk> oh interesting
195. # [01:10] <annevk> you're tracking revisions
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198. # [01:11] <Hixie> annevk: was there any attempt at doing the work that ended up in the encodings spec at the ietf/iana?
199. # [01:12] <annevk> le me get you some references and then I'll get some sleep
200. # [01:12] <GPHemsley> annevk: Yeah, I figure it's useful for archaeology; that way the work only has to be done once
201. # [01:12] <GPHemsley> And there's no question about what happened
202. # [01:12] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
203. # [01:13] <GPHemsley> Also, just to confirm: The only reason user creation is set to manual is to combat spam, right? So if better methods to combat spam were available, they would be preferred?
204. # [01:13] <annevk> http://mail.apps.ietf.org/ietf/charsets/threads.html#01830 shows mostly disinterest so by my next thread I did the work http://mail.apps.ietf.org/ietf/charsets/threads.html#02027
205. # [01:13] <annevk> http://mail.apps.ietf.org/ietf/charsets/threads.html#02034 was the last thread before I unsubscribed
206. # [01:13] <annevk> Hixie: ^^
207. # [01:14] <Hixie> annevk: oh, cool, thanks. didn't expect so much data :-)
208. # [01:14] <annevk> Hixie: if you want to reply to James btw, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/IETF
209. # [01:14] <annevk> Hixie: I'm not subscribed to the uri list and he did not include me, but that would've been my answer
210. # [01:15] <annevk> along maybe with some pointers to past attempts at "fixing things via them"
211. # [01:15] <Hixie> k
212. # [01:15] <annevk> GPHemsley: yes
213. # [01:15] <GPHemsley> k
214. # [01:16] <annevk> GPHemsley: e.g. if you don't mind deleting spam accounts that works too
215. # [01:16] <annevk> I was mostly doing it for a while and grew tired of it
216. # [01:16] <GPHemsley> annevk: Well, there are wiki extensions that combat spam that I could install.
217. # [01:16] <annevk> that'd be awesome too
218. # [01:16] <GPHemsley> I don't know how effective they are, though, so I wanted to make sure re-enabling regular user registration would be OK.
219. # [01:17] <annevk> it's totally fine to try those things without asking
220. # [01:17] <annevk> we hate the current process too
221. # [01:18] <annevk> GPHemsley: thanks for all the work so far btw
222. # [01:18] <annevk> GPHemsley++
223. # [01:18] <annevk> nn
224. # [01:18] <GPHemsley> :)
225. # [01:18] <Hixie> indeed
226. # [01:19] <annevk> GPHemsley: we mostly operate on ask forgiveness rather than ask permission, but people seem to like asking permission around here :)
227. # [01:19] <annevk> really nn now :p
228. # [01:19] <GPHemsley> I'll keep that in mind.
229. # [01:19] <GPHemsley> Have a good night.
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241. # [01:56] <GPHemsley> FTR, I have generated whatwg.org reCAPTCHA keys. Not sure if anyone will want to use them outside of the wiki.
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244. # [02:04] <jsbell> Replying to crockford on jslint mailing list: not sure if helping, or feeding the troll
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246. # [02:05] <WeirdAl> jsbell: that needs a meme pic :)
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248. # [02:11] <GPHemsley> Regular user registrations are now turned back on. Additional anti-spam measures have been put in place. If anyone sees any problems, let me know.
249. # [02:11] <GPHemsley> Also, if there are features/extensions that people think would be useful on the wiki, let me know about that, too. :)
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254. # [02:18] <tantek> GPHemsley - I'm upgrading the anti-spam measures on the microformats wiki and am curious what you chose to add to the WHATWG wiki.
255. # [02:19] <tantek> (also MediaWiki obv)
256. # [02:19] <GPHemsley> tantek: For now, I've only added the reCAPTCHA setting for ConfirmEdit and SimpleAntiSpam.
257. # [02:19] <tantek> ok cool
258. # [02:19] <GPHemsley> I'll wait and see if it's sufficient.
259. # [02:20] <GPHemsley> I used Wikipedia's installation as an inspiration.
260. # [02:20] <GPHemsley> They have a lot of extensions for blocking and whatnot.
261. # [02:20] <tantek> yeah
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263. # [02:20] <GPHemsley> But not too many general purpose extensions.
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265. # [02:20] <GPHemsley> So we'll see if that's enough.
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267. # [02:23] <yuhong> Just wrote a more detailed explaination of the origiin of legacy color parsing: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8318911/why-does-html-think-chucknorris-is-a-color/12630675#12630675
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314. # [05:40] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2012Oct/thread.html#msg3
315. # [05:40] <MikeSmith> for those who missed it
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317. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> (I didn't even know the uri@w3.org list existed)
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323. # [05:54] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: wow, that's a big thread
324. # [05:54] <MikeSmith> yeah
325. # [05:55] <MikeSmith> there's a lot of repetition in it though
326. # [05:58] <MikeSmith> some actually profanity in there too
327. # [05:58] <MikeSmith> so that's a plus
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334. # [06:27] <zewt> MikeSmith: randomly clicking giving me such fascinating snippets
335. # [06:27] <zewt> This is why any references to fixing or aligning URI syntax with reality is besides the point and not neccessary."
336. # [06:27] <zewt> "
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338. # [06:28] <othermaciej> zewt: that quote hurt my eyebrows
339. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> zewt: yeah there's a few more gems like that
340. # [06:34] <zewt> definitely fascinating that this discussion is carefully taking place on a list nobody in the world has ever heard of, instead of one where the silliness might actually be observed
341. # [06:34] <MikeSmith> right
342. # [06:34] <zewt> haha holy shit
343. # [06:34] <zewt> > Why not define (or reuse) a separate term for the input stream, and
344. # [06:34] <zewt> > leave "URL" alone?
345. # [06:34] <MikeSmith> yeah been there
346. # [06:34] <zewt> URI URL URX URO URQ yeah let's come up with another word!
347. # [06:34] <zewt> they're all URLs, get over it
348. # [06:35] <othermaciej> how about Link Online Locator
349. # [06:35] <zewt> people saying "URI" in discussions where everyone else is saying "URL" makes me want to poke them--"really, dude?"
350. # [06:35] <MikeSmith> "hypertext reference"
351. # [06:35] <othermaciej> because I'd love to have an "LOL" class in WebKit
352. # [06:36] <othermaciej> also, it seems really appropriate in this case
353. # [06:36] <MikeSmith> snort
354. # [06:36] <zewt> people who say "URI" are in my same brain-bucket as people who say "FOSS"
355. # [06:36] <zewt> well, for people who say them without irony
356. # [06:37] <zewt> also "KiB", etc
357. # [06:37] <othermaciej> some people say URI just because they have been trained that way, saying "IRI" is the truly extreme level
358. # [06:37] <othermaciej> because no normal person has the slightest clue what that is
359. # [06:38] <othermaciej> technically, saying "scheme" instead of "protocol" to name that particular part of the *R* is also pendatic
360. # [06:38] <MikeSmith> but it's fewer letters
361. # [06:39] <zewt> i'll forgive scheme only because it's broadly used in APIs
362. # [06:39] <zewt> but it's definitely an extra hop in mental processing for me vs. protocol
363. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> anyway is there currently a formal definition of "URL" anywhere? last time I remember checking, it seemed the intent of the URI/IRI specs was to obsolete the term URL and replace it with those
364. # [06:40] <zewt> specs don't "get" to obsolete terms, heh
365. # [06:40] <zewt> that's sort of the overall point of the above :P
366. # [06:41] <zewt> oh yeah. "ecmascript"
367. # [06:42] <MikeSmith> well my point is that nobody can reasonably claim there's a current spec for the term "URL" that this conflicts with
368. # [06:42] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: URLs are URIs that are not URNs
369. # [06:42] <othermaciej> (I think)
370. # [06:42] <othermaciej> (per current official IETF canon)
371. # [06:42] <MikeSmith> ok
372. # [06:42] <zewt> othermaciej: is that a tonguetwister?
373. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> .me reads http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-1.1.3
374. # [06:43] <zewt> heh another good one:
375. # [06:43] <zewt> Um, true... but it's also the case that the implementation community hasn't over the years been doing as much as might be best to make reality match the specifications. The new specs we're writing now would like have been a lot thinner and cleaner if they had.
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377. # [06:43] <zewt> "new at this, are you?"
378. # [06:43] <zewt> (and the answer presumably being "no", which is the unfortunate part)
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381. # [06:47] <othermaciej> many standards people believe that browsers have power to change reality just by being more strict
382. # [06:48] <zewt> well, in a way they do--but they're not going to, since there are stronger forces acting on them than specs
383. # [06:50] <zewt> if not to the point of changing reality (heh) there are plenty of things they could do that they're just not going to--and one thing the HTML spec (etc) have done is ... getting over it
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387. # [07:07] <MikeSmith> can somebody remind me what's supposed to be the processing behavior for the semicolon-less named character references in the "Named character references" table?
388. # [07:07] <MikeSmith> UAs are supposed to use the corresponding character even though the character reference lacks the semicolon?
389. # [07:08] <MikeSmith> this does not seem to be clear in the current spec
390. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> hmm yeah matjas test cases seems to indicate that's in fact what's supposed to happen
391. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> http://mathias.html5.org/tests/html/named-character-references/
392. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> (if you look at the script in the source)
393. # [07:12] <MikeSmith> bah anyway the spec doesn't make that clear
394. # [07:13] <MikeSmith> I guess this is case where it's a document-conformance error but the UA still has to process it
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402. # [07:42] <zewt> seems clear (if complicated) from 12.2.4.69
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405. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> zewt: yeah true after reading more
406. # [07:59] <zewt> html is Will It Blend? for old browser bugs
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409. # [08:12] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: reading the thread I'm amused at Hixie's unabashed bomb-throwing
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411. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I guess he reckons he's speaking truth to power
412. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> or something
413. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> I like the part where he kinda chides mnot for saying "fuck"
414. # [08:17] <othermaciej> does curl enforce url/uri validity in its parameter or is tbray describing how he wishes it worked?
415. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> it doesn't as far as I can tell from using it
416. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> so I'm not sure what he's talking about
417. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> he or somebody in that thread even says something about "I consider that a bug in curl"
418. # [08:18] <Hixie> othermaciej: curl does one thing with bad urls in its command line and another with bad urls in HTTP redirect Location: headers
419. # [08:19] <othermaciej> Hixie: it seems indisputably better for it to always do the same thing with bad urls and for that to be the same as what browsers do with them
420. # [08:19] <Hixie> you would think
421. # [08:19] <othermaciej> apparently the word "indisputably" does not mean what I think it means
422. # [08:20] * hsivonen wonders what the context is
423. # [08:21] <Hixie> hsivonen: recent threads in uri@w3.org
424. # [08:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks
425. # [08:21] <Hixie> othermaciej: what's funny is the one thing they seem to think _should_ be specced is the one thing i think we can never spec, namely, how to handle user input in the url bar
426. # [08:21] <Hixie> hsivonen: (context being IETF being offended by Anne's intention to obsolete STD66)
427. # [08:21] <othermaciej> Hixie: in practice we will probably have to figure out how to convert Anne's parsed output of a URL into a URI sufficiently valid for our network library to accept, whether he specs that bit or not
428. # [08:21] <othermaciej> (so I hope he specs it)
429. # [08:22] <othermaciej> Hixie: I
430. # [08:22] <Hixie> othermaciej: i think in practice the right eventual solution is to just replace the URL handling in the network library
431. # [08:22] <othermaciej> I'd love to see someone try to spec what happens when you type "foo bar" in the address field of the browser ui
432. # [08:23] <othermaciej> Hixie: we might end up doing that long-term eventually
433. # [08:23] <zewt> hell, I have no idea what's going to happen when I type anything in a "modern" browser
434. # [08:23] <othermaciej> Hixie: even in that case we'd probably want to pass them a string, not a struct representing the parsed components, but it could be a resolved-but-unparsed string
435. # [08:23] <zewt> (when I type "foo bar" in Chrome I'd expect it to search for "foo bar", but odds are it'll search for "foo bar underpants" or something instead)
436. # [08:24] <hsivonen> that the term LEIRI even shows up in that discussion is part of the problem and shows that Anne’s spec is needed.
437. # [08:24] <SamB_MacG5> othermaciej: obviously, it looks for a bookmark with a keyword of "foo", and ...
438. # [08:25] <SamB_MacG5> ... and then extensions get a chance to mess with things, and ...
439. # [08:25] <zewt> 3. profit
440. # [08:25] <SamB_MacG5> ... and then your mom ...
441. # [08:25] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah, he defines canonicalisation, i believe. or will.
442. # [08:25] <Hixie> othermaciej: we need it for DOM APIs anyway
443. # [08:26] <othermaciej> I think what's needed is resolution against a base incorporating canonicalization
444. # [08:26] <Hixie> right
445. # [08:26] <othermaciej> (I guess it is fine if those are defined as separate steps, but we'll likely want to code it as one pass for efficiency)
446. # [08:26] <Hixie> pretty sure anne's on the ball on this
447. # [08:26] <SamB_MacG5> othermaciej: at first I was wondering why you'd want to resolve not to have such a thing ...
448. # [08:27] <othermaciej> I do not doubt his acumen
449. # [08:27] <tantek> WTF is LEIRI?
450. # [08:27] <Hixie> dude
451. # [08:27] <Hixie> take my advice
452. # [08:27] <Hixie> and back away
453. # [08:27] <Hixie> retract your qusetion
454. # [08:27] <Hixie> you will regret it otherwise
455. # [08:28] <SamB_MacG5> ouch
456. # [08:28] * SamB_MacG5 decides to stop wondering, too
457. # [08:28] * Hixie runs away, lest he get caught in the fallout
458. # [08:28] <tantek> wow - this? http://www.w3.org/TR/leiri/
459. # [08:28] * SamB_MacG5 does not open that
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461. # [08:28] <othermaciej> tantek: I got Google to give me that link, but that didn't really answer what it is or why it exists
462. # [08:28] <tantek> Legacy extended IRIs for XML - isn't that twice redundant?
463. # [08:29] <SamB_MacG5> and why "for XML"?
464. # [08:29] * tantek checks the publication date to make sure it is not --04-01
465. # [08:29] <SamB_MacG5> I don't think the W3 does those
466. # [08:31] <othermaciej> Reading this url@ thread, I can't really tell if it's just an argument about terminology or a substantive disagreement
467. # [08:31] <Hixie> othermaciej: it's a power struggle pretending to be a technical discussion
468. # [08:32] <tantek> Legacy / XML
469. # [08:32] <tantek> extended / XML
470. # [08:32] <Hixie> with me in the peanut gallery trying to seriously explain things while resisting (some times better than other times) the urge to troll.
471. # [08:32] <tantek> Hixie, that's what IRC is for
472. # [08:33] <Hixie> yeah, that's why i didn't troll more than i did :-)
473. # [08:33] <tantek> What restraint!
474. # [08:34] <Hixie> :-P
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476. # [08:37] <hsivonen> why is Roy insisting on not calling the things you put in href URLs?
477. # [08:38] <Hixie> if you figure out the answer to that, let me know
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479. # [08:44] <othermaciej> uh-oh, mnot said he thinks the httpbis wg has addressed all feedback to the satisfaction of those raising it
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481. # [08:44] <Hixie> that's a bit like how the htmlwg has addressed all formal objections to the satisfaction of those raising them :-P
482. # [08:45] <othermaciej> I don't think the html wg believes it has addressed any formal objections at all (since technically it is the Director's job to do so)
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484. # [08:45] <othermaciej> anyway, I posted the one obvious httpbis counter-example I know of to the list
485. # [08:46] <othermaciej> am curious to see outcome
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487. # [08:46] <Hixie> othermaciej: the chairs asked me if my objection was satisfied, i said nothing had changed, they said "if you don't act like a jerk we'll assume you're satisfied then"
488. # [08:47] <Hixie> that's basically the same tactic the http group uses - say no until the person gives up
489. # [08:47] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'm not sure I would characterize your behavior in that exchange as *not* acting like a jerk...
490. # [08:48] <annevk> Roy's answer fascinated me the most; it seemed to say STD 66 did not define parsing at all, just the object you'd get eventually.
491. # [08:48] <Hixie> othermaciej: fair point, but still
492. # [08:48] <annevk> I do wonder though what that regular expression does there then...
493. # [08:48] <Hixie> othermaciej: "if you don't act like even more of a jerk" maybe? :-)
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495. # [08:49] <Hixie> othermaciej: anyway, the strategy of "just keep adding hurdles until they give up" is one that has been used a lot in the htmlwg since 2007
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497. # [08:50] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think Sam drew his conclusion from the fact that you said you didn't want to be involved in threads regarding the w3c process - the only way to satisfy that request is to *not* process the Formal Objection, since doing so would cause you to get further email about w3c process
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499. # [08:50] <othermaciej> Hixie: if that was not your intent then you should have given a straight answer to my simple yes-or-no question (which was not a trick question or a false dilemma or anything)
500. # [08:50] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm not saying i wanted the FO kept (i couldn't care less either way), my point was just that it wasn't addressed
501. # [08:51] <Hixie> othermaciej: having me no longer care doesn't mean the spec got fixed :-)
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503. # [08:51] <annevk> Okay, MIME bugs can be filed against http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/ now
504. # [08:51] <annevk> thanks MikeSmith!
505. # [08:51] <Hixie> oh hey, anne's back
506. # [08:52] * MikeSmith opens a third breakfast beer in celebration
507. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: if you posted a message to uri@ it didn't go
508. # [08:52] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: no, I posted to ietf-http-wg
509. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> ah ok
510. # [08:53] <othermaciej> replying to myself from 2.5 years ago
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512. # [08:53] <othermaciej> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2012OctDec/0150.html
513. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> that's the way to show em how to do it man
514. # [08:53] <annevk> othermaciej: haha, good luck with that
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516. # [08:54] <othermaciej> annevk: well, either they will fix it or the bluff is called
517. # [08:54] <annevk> although I have to say, some of my feedback has been addressed, but only after I complained several times and mnot put a little bit of a defence up for my feedback
518. # [08:54] <annevk> e.g. they somewhat addressed some of the Redirect stuff http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTTP
519. # [08:54] <annevk> they undefined content-location
520. # [08:55] <Hixie> content-base?
521. # [08:55] <annevk> Hixie: it's the base URL yeah, but it's named -location
522. # [08:55] <Hixie> i thought there was another one called content-base
523. # [08:55] <Hixie> when you say "undefined", you mean what exactly?
524. # [08:55] <Hixie> not saying what it should do is hardly a solution...
525. # [08:56] <annevk> The main problem with the IETF is that they do not test implementations. They just assume a bunch of things about how things are implemented. Julian being a recent exception
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527. # [08:57] <annevk> And then when you point that out they ask you to do all the hard work only for them to reject most of it or water down stuff. Not actually make a useful spec for implementors, despite what they claim.
528. # [08:58] <annevk> That's another reason why I'm extremely skeptical of helping them out with the URL work. The odds of getting the specification I think is useful for implementors are so small.
529. # [08:59] <hsivonen> hmm. someone on an IETF list was “puzzled” by calling UTF-16 a legacy encoding
530. # [09:00] <annevk> heh, you'd wonder why they still insist on publishing in ASCII then!
531. # [09:01] <Hixie> annevk: they aren't willing to do hard work, and to get the simplest things done you have to argue for hours and days and weeks. what's the point of even trying.
532. # [09:01] <Hixie> annevk: we get better quality feedback and get things done a zillion times faster by doing it at the whatwg.
533. # [09:01] <Hixie> anyway. bed time. nn.
534. # [09:01] <annevk> othermaciej: my URL parsing algorithm does exactly what you want btw
535. # [09:02] <othermaciej> annevk: winning
536. # [09:02] <annevk> othermaciej: it parses, resolves, and canonicalizes in one go (with a little bit of reparsing for domains)
537. # [09:02] <annevk> so I think it could be ultra fast, but I'm not the guy to implement it in C and find out :)
538. # [09:03] <annevk> Hixie: that's exactly it; nn
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540. # [09:08] <othermaciej> annevk: is there a form of the algorithm that outputs a string suitable to give to a network library (as opposed to parsed components) or is there an implied "paste the components together in the proper way" step at the end?
541. # [09:09] <othermaciej> (I think the latter way is ok)
542. # [09:09] <annevk> othermaciej: my idea was to have a separate "serialize" thing, indeed
543. # [09:09] <annevk> othermaciej: but yeah, it's basically putting the components in order
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546. # [09:22] <annevk> GPHemsley: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges lots of spam users almost immediately :/
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549. # [09:25] <tantek> damn that sucks (the spam users)
550. # [09:37] <annevk> yeah, that's why we disabled it back then
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552. # [09:37] <annevk> I'll wait for GPHemsley to come back, maybe he has some more tricks
553. # [09:38] <tantek> spam pages deleted and creators of those pages blocked. I'll leave the other random accounts alone for now.
554. # [09:41] <annevk> tantek++
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579. # [10:38] <annevk> okay, could not resist http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2012Oct/0037.html
580. # [10:41] <tantek> well written annevk
581. # [10:42] <tantek> I am shocked, shocked to hear that there is stop energy is going on in IETF mailing lists!
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583. # [10:43] <tantek> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME
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588. # [10:58] <othermaciej> annevk: looks like I actually got satisfaction
589. # [10:59] <othermaciej> or will anyway
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591. # [11:04] <annevk> scumbag IETF: does not solve your problems; complaints when you solve them yourself
592. # [11:05] <annevk> s/ts/s/
593. # [11:09] <othermaciej> will the resolve+canonicalize+parse algorithm followed by serialize always result in a valid URI per the RFC? (or valid IRI?)
594. # [11:09] <othermaciej> or will it sometimes result in something not-rfc-valid?
595. # [11:10] <othermaciej> cause you might actually be sort of doing what at least mnot has asked for, other than terminology
596. # [11:12] <annevk> othermaciej: no it's not always valid
597. # [11:12] <annevk> othermaciej: see my email
598. # [11:12] <annevk> othermaciej: e.g. http://www.w3.org/% is not valid yet is transmitted as such
599. # [11:12] <othermaciej> if invalid stuff sometimes gets over the wire as such, and in particular if servers may depend on that behavior, then there is no sensible way to build on STD66
600. # [11:12] <annevk> agreed
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617. # [12:13] <annevk> why is there no custom scumbag meme generator?
618. # [12:13] <annevk> I guess I'll do some work instead
619. # [12:20] <hsivonen> annevk: do you have a list of encodings supported by each browser?
620. # [12:21] <annevk> hsivonen: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_Encodings has historical data
621. # [12:22] <annevk> hsivonen: it's not been updated
622. # [12:22] <annevk> hsivonen: http://coq.no/character-tables/mime/en is pretty good too
623. # [12:22] <annevk> hsivonen: (but not in list form)
624. # [12:24] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
625. # [12:25] <hsivonen> ok. enough replying to Glenn Adams about unsupported encodings. Back to code.
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628. # [12:26] <annevk> hsivonen: fwiw, the \ and Yen thing is supported in fonts
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630. # [12:27] <annevk> hsivonen: it's not part of the encoding layer and does not affect parsers and such, but Japanese fonts are "corrupted"
631. # [12:27] <hsivonen> yeah. very sad.
632. # [12:29] <hsivonen> It seems that the Nordic countries have been much better at recovering from that kind of bogosity. Why not Japan and Korea?
633. # [12:29] <hsivonen> maybe because for the Nordic countries, the bogosity wasn’t carried over to Mac and Windows but in the Yen/Won case, it was?
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635. # [12:30] <hsivonen> and after it infected Windows, it was too late
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647. # [13:29] <annevk> :(
648. # [13:29] <annevk> Posting to that thread on uri is now becoming a major time sink
649. # [13:30] <hsivonen> annevk: walk away
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655. # [13:45] <dbaron> hsivonen, what platforms had said bogosity for Nordic countries?
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662. # [13:52] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: has the situation improved with PNG gamma? http://hsivonen.iki.fi/png-gamma/
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667. # [14:02] <annevk> hsivonen: yeah, the point-by-point sniping is doing nobody any favors
668. # [14:02] <annevk> except fans of 386
669. # [14:03] <hsivonen> dbaron: I’m not really sure what platforms. I think some pre-Linux Unix boxes had it.
670. # [14:04] <hsivonen> dbaron: I experienced it briefly in 1995–1996 with email and telnet
671. # [14:04] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: I haven’t tested recently
672. # [14:05] <SimonSapin> ok, thanks
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678. # [14:15] <Ms2ger> Ooh, LEIRI
679. # [14:15] <Ms2ger> Hadn't seen that for a while
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681. # [14:23] <jgraham> And didn't that make you sad
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688. # [14:31] <annevk> FYI: I created @xhrstandard, @urlstandard, @encodings, and @thedomstandard
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690. # [14:31] <annevk> They tweet for commits
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698. # [14:48] <annevk> http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/ has a fun variant of the WHATWG logo thanks to Robbert; loving it
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705. # [14:58] <SimonSapin> annevk: goes with this: http://www.geekwear.de/produkte/scheiss-encoding-shirt.html
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728. # [15:46] <annevk> heh
729. # [15:48] <GPHemsley> Well, that didn't take long.
730. # [15:50] <GPHemsley> I've shut them off again.
731. # [15:51] <GPHemsley> Kinda worrying, though, that they can get through a CAPTCHA and an additional layer of prevention.
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740. # [16:14] <annevk> I wonder how wikipedia itself does it
741. # [16:14] <annevk> GPHemsley: can't we use twitter or google or something as identify provider?
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743. # [16:15] <GPHemsley> Wikipedia has a much more complex system, with a lot of blocks and filters and whatnot.
744. # [16:15] * annevk keeps making that typo :/
745. # [16:15] * GPHemsley too
746. # [16:15] <GPHemsley> right now I'm strengthening user permissions
747. # [16:16] <GPHemsley> it's possible the upgrade may have made things a little too free by default :)
748. # [16:16] <zewt> annevk: aren't you happy you joined that discussion? heh (@uri[sic])
749. # [16:16] <annevk> what would be nice if on the recent changes page you can just mark a bunch of stuff as spam and then let the wiki sort it out
750. # [16:17] <annevk> zewt: I was happy with my first email, not so happy with the point-by-point sniping that followed
751. # [16:17] <annevk> zewt: prolly not gonna post more
752. # [16:17] <zewt> annevk: that's usually where i try to go "okay if you say so I'm going back to work", but yeah, that's hard to do, heh
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755. # [16:21] <annevk> GPHemsley: Anolified MIME Sniffing btw
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759. # [16:31] <GPHemsley> annevk: K, thanks.
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770. # [16:41] <annevk> I started sketching the Writing URLs section: http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#writing
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772. # [16:41] <annevk> any thoughts on it are welcome; wondering whether this is the approach to go in
773. # [16:46] <GPHemsley> Are there any non-sysop wiki users here who could test something for me?
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788. # [17:23] <annevk> where is Ms2ger?
789. # [17:23] <annevk> I don't like the name he minted for the URL registry page
790. # [17:23] <jgraham> Belgium
791. # [17:23] <annevk> I think URLExtensions would be more in line with what we have thus far
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797. # [17:54] <annevk> GPHemsley: fwiw, in the right bottom of the wiki the MIT thingie still weird
798. # [17:55] <GPHemsley> annevk: If you have an image for me to put there, I can set it.
799. # [17:57] <annevk> GPHemsley: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:License_icon-mit.svg maybe?
800. # [17:57] <annevk> GPHemsley: or maybe just nothing at all?
801. # [17:57] <annevk> GPHemsley: it's already mentioned in text too after all
802. # [17:58] <annevk> GPHemsley: Privacy policy and disclaimer links are prolly also best removed as we don't have either
803. # [17:58] <annevk> GPHemsley: and the About WHATWG Wiki page is useless too
804. # [17:58] <GPHemsley> Well, these are all standard parts of the skin.
805. # [18:00] <GPHemsley> Oh, it's looking for an 88x31 image for the license.
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808. # [18:04] <GPHemsley> annevk: How about now? ^_^
809. # [18:04] <annevk> cool
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817. # [18:20] <GPHemsley> annevk: Incidentally, I can put any link and 88x31 image there, so if you want to put something else there, that's cool too.
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820. # [18:21] <GPHemsley> annevk: Or maybe this would be better: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:License_icon-mit-88x31.svg
821. # [18:23] <GPHemsley> annevk: Try it now.
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832. # [18:40] <annevk> also nice :)
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843. # [18:55] <annevk> GPHemsley: okay, added the disclaimer, no idea what to do with the privacy policy
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845. # [18:57] <GPHemsley> "To remove the Privacy policy or Disclaimers links at the bottom of each page, set the content of pages MediaWiki:Privacy or MediaWiki:Disclaimers respectively to a single hyphen (-)."
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847. # [18:58] <[tm]> the IETF is a business model
848. # [18:59] <annevk> doesn't work for MediaWiki:About :/
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851. # [19:01] <GPHemsley> annevk: Actually, for us, the prefix is 'WHATWG Wiki'
852. # [19:02] <annevk> GPHemsley: works if I use MediaWiki
853. # [19:02] <GPHemsley> yeah, IDK, weird things going on
854. # [19:02] <annevk> ...
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856. # [19:03] <annevk> cannot remove it either by changing WHATWG Wiki:About to -
857. # [19:03] <annevk> so I guess we'll keep it
858. # [19:04] <GPHemsley> That's no big deal
859. # [19:04] <GPHemsley> It's nice to have an about page
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864. # [19:07] <annevk> if you say so :) I added some text to make it more interesting
865. # [19:07] <GPHemsley> hmm
866. # [19:07] <GPHemsley> Apparently I was wrong
867. # [19:08] <GPHemsley> the MediaWiki pages are the ones that disable the links
868. # [19:08] <GPHemsley> but the WHATWG Wiki pages still exist
869. # [19:08] <annevk> so we should remove those?
870. # [19:09] <annevk> oh you clean it up now ;)
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872. # [19:10] <GPHemsley> :)
873. # [19:10] * GPHemsley made a mess all over the wiki.
874. # [19:11] <GPHemsley> but I think it's fixed now
875. # [19:11] <shakesoda> is anyone aware of any pen pressure APIs being proposed? (and is this even the right place to ask?)
876. # [19:11] <shakesoda> I'm slightly surprised that the only way to get pen pressure in browsers appears to be wacom's plugin, which I can't use (linux)
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879. # [19:14] <annevk> it sounds like https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gamepad/raw-file/tip/gamepad.html should address that somehow
880. # [19:14] <annevk> but maybe not
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885. # [19:25] <shakesoda> looks like a suitable interface to me, would just need a sane (consistent) mapping of the axes.
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887. # [19:26] <shakesoda> e.g. axes[0] => pressure, axes[1] => tilt, axes[2] => rotation
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922. # [20:56] <annevk> I don't understand http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2012Oct/0053.html
923. # [20:56] <annevk> I thought the IETF does not use the term URL anymore?
924. # [20:56] <annevk> Ah, it has a non-normative note on them here: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-1.1.3
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928. # [21:00] <tantek> annevk - it's an interesting message from the perspective of a group telling an individual "why don't you come do the work in our group?"
929. # [21:01] <tantek> WHATWG has had the same problem, telling individuals to come do the work at WHATWG
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932. # [21:01] <tantek> so it can happen to any group
933. # [21:01] <annevk> what I think we told those people was that if you don't have actual implementors on board, you're gonna have a bad time
934. # [21:02] <tantek> indeed
935. # [21:02] <tantek> it's ironic since the motto of IETF is something like rough consensus and *running code* (emphasis added)
936. # [21:02] <annevk> WHATWG is a great place to go for implementor feedback, as long as we manage to keep the signal/noise ratio somewhat sane
937. # [21:02] <tantek> how did that latter part get lost?
938. # [21:02] <annevk> running code, as long as it's within silos we work on?
939. # [21:03] <annevk> (not entirely fair to jreschke, who hacks on Gecko now and then)
940. # [21:03] <tantek> WHATWG *is* a great place to go for implementor feedback. That I agree with. I think the majority of actual bad friction (at/with WHATWG) has been when it involves innovating/designing for author-centric technologies - like all the responsive image stuff.
941. # [21:03] <annevk> biab
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944. # [21:04] <tantek> but even there the results are decent to a first approximation, so, carry-on as they say.
945. # [21:04] <tantek> re: the running code being lost
946. # [21:04] <tantek> perhaps that's a pattern in the growth/expansion of any standards community/group?
947. # [21:04] * attiks|away is now known as attiks
948. # [21:05] <tantek> they start out as primarily (or only?) implementors, then more and more others get involved, until the non-implementors vastly outnumber the implementors, and mistake their email participation in the group for actual productivity.
949. # [21:05] <tantek> similar thing obviously happened at W3C.
950. # [21:06] <tantek> theb non-implementors start to write "wish list" specs completely detached from implementability and wonder why no one is paying attention to them.
951. # [21:06] <tantek> s/theb/then
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954. # [21:09] * atraver_ is now known as atraver
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956. # [21:10] <GPHemsley> FYI: I've add a few extensions (and a bunch of gadgets) to the wiki. Check the list out here: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Special:Version
957. # [21:10] * abstractj|brb is now known as abstractj
958. # [21:11] <GPHemsley> Most of the gadgets are turned on by default, but there are a few that aren't (and you are welcome to turn the others off for yourself).
959. # [21:11] <GPHemsley> If there's a gadget you want installed, let me know.
960. # [21:12] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl)
961. # [21:14] <tantek> GPHemsley - we've found the SemanticHTML extensions quite handy on the #microformats wiki: https://github.com/BenWard/mediawiki-semantic-html
962. # [21:14] <annevk> tantek: yeah, there's some bridge to be crossed between the jQuery people and where browsers are still at
963. # [21:14] <tantek> BTW that's a nice list http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Special:Version - will likely crib some of that for #microformats as well
964. # [21:15] <annevk> tantek: I haven't really thought much about it, other than whenever I design a new API ask a bunch of them explicitly for feedback (or for the entire design of the API)
965. # [21:15] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl10-248-225.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
966. # [21:15] <annevk> tantek: but most of my work is on upgrading fifteen-year-old standards
967. # [21:15] <tantek> GPHemsley - this one too for code examples: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SyntaxHighlight_GeSHi
968. # [21:15] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@vpnk123.ugent.be)
969. # [21:16] <tantek> annevk - WHATWG methodology seems quite good (produces good results) at upgrading/fixing old standards, that's for sure.
970. # [21:16] <annevk> GPHemsley: sounds interesting
971. # [21:21] <Ms2ger> annevk, I minted something?
972. # [21:21] <annevk> Ms2ger: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Registry-URL-schemes
973. # [21:21] <Ms2ger> Huh, I did do that
974. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> No longer needed, I gues
975. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> s
976. # [21:24] <annevk> actually it is
977. # [21:24] <annevk> unless we defer to IANA
978. # [21:24] <annevk> conformance is going to be scheme-dependent
979. # [21:25] <Ms2ger> Mm, and I guess you don't want all that in url.s.w.o
980. # [21:25] * Quits: skylamer` (cgskylamer@78.90.213.55) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
981. # [21:27] <annevk> a) there's conformance rules; what syntax coms after tel:/fax:/skype:/data:/javascript:/ws:/... b) there's processing rules; after parsing the URL various schemes need post-processing
982. # [21:28] <annevk> e.g. you can parse "tel:data" and then you'll want to process "data" and prolly mark that as an invalid resource
983. # [21:28] <annevk> now given the enormous amount of URL schemes, I think not all of those should be in url.spec.whatwg.org
984. # [21:29] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
985. # [21:29] <annevk> though I might include e.g. javascript: to illustrate how it works
986. # [21:30] <annevk> MikeSmith: gonna need your thoughts on the above too at some point ^^
987. # [21:30] * Quits: jarib (~jarib@unaffiliated/jarib) (Excess Flood)
988. # [21:30] <annevk> MikeSmith: might be a lot of work to support URL validation
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992. # [21:34] <GPHemsley> tantek: OK, I've added both of those.
993. # [21:34] <GPHemsley> (Syntax highlighting defaults to HTML5.)
994. # [21:35] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@nat/mozilla/x-uiwtvsxexdchftci) (Quit: sicking)
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998. # [21:39] * Quits: michaeln (michaeln@nat/google/x-taiffcujbpeeeuzr) (Quit: Leaving.)
999. # [21:39] <annevk> guess I can't ++ GPHemsley more for fear of integer overflow
1000. # [21:40] <GPHemsley> :)
1001. # [21:42] * Joins: Martin_L (~Martin_L@81-233-190-9-no212.tbcn.telia.com)
1002. # [21:47] <tantek> GPHemsley thanks!
1003. # [21:47] <tantek> GPHemsley++
1004. # [21:48] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.19.229.getinternet.no) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1005. # [21:49] * attiks is now known as attiks|away
1006. # [21:50] * GPHemsley feels like a slot machine. *cha-ching*
1007. # [21:53] * Quits: Stevef (~chatzilla@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1008. # [21:56] <annevk> found a bug in Nightly
1009. # [21:56] <annevk> file:/// shows "Index of file:///"
1010. # [21:57] <annevk> (rather than "Index of file:/")
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1013. # [22:01] * JohnAlbin is now known as JohnAlbin_zzzzzz
1014. # [22:03] <hober> Hixie: out of curiosity, what does <!--DEFER foo--> do in your toolchain?
1015. # [22:06] * Quits: baku (~baku@x1-6-e0-46-9a-1f-0a-72.k694.webspeed.dk) (Quit: Leaving)
1016. # [22:08] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.190.226)
1017. # [22:08] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
1018. # [22:09] <jgraham> hober: Is that stuff that has been removed from the spec but hixie wants to keep around in case we ever decide to resurrect the idea?
1019. # [22:09] * Joins: michaeln (michaeln@nat/google/x-sjgtajfzfbewfbrk)
1020. # [22:10] <hober> jgraham: i dunno; it only appears once in source
1021. # [22:10] <hober> <!--DEFER snapshot complete-->, line 32
1022. # [22:10] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
1023. # [22:13] <Ms2ger> You're trying to figure out something about his toolchain?
1024. # [22:13] <Ms2ger> Good luck :)
1025. # [22:14] <hober> heh
1026. # [22:14] * Joins: j_wright (~jwright@ip70-173-176-222.lv.lv.cox.net)
1027. # [22:16] <jgraham> hober: Oh, well my theory makes no sense in context. Maybe I just invented the idea that there was something like that
1028. # [22:17] * Quits: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251) (Remote host closed the connection)
1029. # [22:19] * Quits: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
1030. # [22:20] <annevk> there is, he just uses comments like the rest of us for that ;)
1031. # [22:20] * GPHemsley wonders if there's any chance the W3C Bugzilla instance will install the Component Watching extension
1032. # [22:21] <annevk> GPHemsley: sysreq@w3.org iirc
1033. # [22:21] <annevk> GPHemsley: maybe cc MikeSmith for superior lobbying powers
1034. # [22:21] <TabAtkins> Damn, annevk beat me.
1035. # [22:21] <GPHemsley> MikeSmith: ^^
1036. # [22:21] <GPHemsley> ;)
1037. # [22:21] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.19.229.getinternet.no)
1038. # [22:21] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, is that an extension or just a new feature?
1039. # [22:21] <Ms2ger> The W3C bugzilla is ages out of date
1040. # [22:21] <GPHemsley> It's an extension, AFAIK.
1041. # [22:22] <GPHemsley> Though it would ideally be an integrated feature.
1042. # [22:22] <GPHemsley> BMO has it installed.
1043. # [22:25] * Quits: snowfox_ben (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1044. # [22:28] * Joins: benknight (~Adium@bastion.sfo1.yelpcorp.com)
1045. # [22:30] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@nat/mozilla/x-hcindorqdczbjhfi)
1046. # [22:30] * GPHemsley thinks the W3C depends on e-mail too much.
1047. # [22:30] <GPHemsley> (Maybe if they used Bugzilla more, it'd be up to date.)
1048. # [22:30] <Ms2ger> E-mail is a support forum
1049. # [22:30] * Ms2ger runs
1050. # [22:31] * GPHemsley doesn't bother running after Ms2ger.
1051. # [22:34] <annevk> too bad a private repo costs money
1052. # [22:34] <annevk> would be nice to store twitter account details and such somewhere where more people had access to them
1053. # [22:35] <annevk> does WikiMedia have some concept of private pages?
1054. # [22:35] * Quits: bacilla (~karolis@client-178-16-47-80.inturbo.lt)
1055. # [22:35] <annevk> though I guess we'd want to run the thing over https in that case
1056. # [22:35] <annevk> meh
1057. # [22:35] <Ms2ger> I don't think so
1058. # [22:35] <GPHemsley> hmm
1059. # [22:35] <GPHemsley> let me look
1060. # [22:37] <GPHemsley> "If you need per-page or partial page access restrictions, you are advised to install an appropriate content management package. MediaWiki was not written to provide per-page access restrictions, and almost all hacks or patches promising to add them will likely have flaws somewhere, which could lead to exposure of confidential data. We are not responsible for anything being leaked, leading to loss of funds or one's job."
1061. # [22:38] <GPHemsley> BTW, who has access to the web server interface? AryehGregor? Because PHP is really out of date. (I couldn't even find PHP5 on the command line, and I don't know how the command line differs from what is run on the server.)
1062. # [22:39] <annevk> GPHemsley: what is the PHP version?
1063. # [22:39] <GPHemsley> Also, the connection seems to time out in a way that prevents me from accessing the cursor.
1064. # [22:39] <GPHemsley> so I can't even Ctrl-C to kill it
1065. # [22:39] <GPHemsley> annevk: in the command line? PHP 4 something
1066. # [22:40] <annevk> GPHemsley: Hixie has the ability to change those settings
1067. # [22:40] <GPHemsley> though the wiki is somehow run by 5.2.17 or so
1068. # [22:40] <annevk> okay, that sounds like the latest version DreamHost runs
1069. # [22:40] <annevk> not sure about the command line option
1070. # [22:40] <GPHemsley> There are some scripts that are better run via command line that I couldn't run, because I couldn't find PHP5
1071. # [22:40] <annevk> GPHemsley: PHP by default runs over CGI in DreamHost
1072. # [22:41] <annevk> GPHemsley: Hixie can enable mod_php I think as he has DreamHost PS, but I'm not sure if he's done that
1073. # [22:41] <annevk> dunno much about PHP on the command line
1074. # [22:42] <annevk> GPHemsley: https://discussion.dreamhost.com/thread-90033.html
1075. # [22:42] <annevk> GPHemsley: http://wiki.dreamhost.com/PHP#PHP-CLI_.28Using_PHP_from_the_Command_line.29
1076. # [22:42] <GPHemsley> AFAICT, DreamHost also offers the option to use 5.3.x
1077. # [22:43] <annevk> correct, but the default is 5.2.x
1078. # [22:43] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@gut75-7-78-225-43-1.fbx.proxad.net)
1079. # [22:43] <GPHemsley> ah, I see
1080. # [22:43] <GPHemsley> weird
1081. # [22:44] <GPHemsley> is there a reason not to switch to 5.3.x?
1082. # [22:45] <annevk> I think you want to make the case the other way around, as it's some work for Hixie and potential breakage
1083. # [22:45] <GPHemsley> well, it's merely a flip of a drop-down
1084. # [22:46] <GPHemsley> and it seems that it can be set on a per-subdomain basis
1085. # [22:46] <GPHemsley> and AFAIK, only the wiki is run on this particular subdomain
1086. # [22:46] <annevk> all true
1087. # [22:47] <GPHemsley> and PHP 5.2.x is no longer maintained
1088. # [22:48] <GPHemsley> which is more a judgement on DreamHost than the WHATWG, but...
1089. # [22:48] <annevk> I guess my point is more that if there's nothing in 5.3 we need, we might as well wait for DreamHost to make the switch
1090. # [22:49] <GPHemsley> Well unmaintained potentially means insecure
1091. # [22:49] <GPHemsley> but again, that's on DreamHost
1092. # [22:49] <GPHemsley> so, ok
1093. # [22:50] <GPHemsley> it all depends on how the MediaWiki development goes, and whether we update it
1094. # [22:50] <GPHemsley> because I think we're at the bare minimum PHP version right now
1095. # [22:51] <GPHemsley> I'm surprised DreamHost hasn't spun up any 5.4.x options, though
1096. # [22:51] <GPHemsley> they're already at 5.4.7
1097. # [22:51] <GPHemsley> though I suppose 5.4.0 was only released in March
1098. # [22:53] * Quits: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@190.244.76.14) (Remote host closed the connection)
1099. # [22:53] <Hixie> ok the logo for encoding.spec.whatwg.org is pretty damn funny
1100. # [22:53] <Hixie> hober: something about making one of the keywords work like an alias for the other, or something
1101. # [22:53] <Hixie> hober: i don't think it is used for any of the keywords you guys use
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1106. # [23:00] <hober> ahh, ok. just curious, thanks
1107. # [23:00] <hober> annevk Hixie: yeah, the encoding logo is perfect
1108. # [23:01] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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1111. # [23:02] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl)
1112. # [23:04] <Hixie> annevk: please don't fall into the trap the XML guys fell into -- "valid URL" is a fine thing to define, but "URL" shouldn't be only things that are valid
1113. # [23:04] <Hixie> otherwise it gets really confusing and you have people saying "oh that's not a url" when you point them to invalid values of href="" attributes
1114. # [23:04] * Joins: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@190.244.76.14)
1115. # [23:04] <Ms2ger> Hixie, well, that href value sure ain't XML...
1116. # [23:05] <Hixie> the equivalent in XML world is people saying "that's not XML" about resources sent as application/xml
1117. # [23:05] <annevk> Hixie: I guess that's fair
1118. # [23:06] <annevk> Hixie: but do we then also need valid relative URL etc.
1119. # [23:06] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
1120. # [23:06] <Hixie> hey, tim thinks you guys are my "tribe"
1121. # [23:06] <Hixie> not sure what that means, but it's something
1122. # [23:07] <annevk> I thought we were a gang, with the gang sign and all
1123. # [23:07] <annevk> or a caball?
1124. # [23:07] <annevk> s/ll/l/
1125. # [23:07] <Hixie> i always thought the gang sign thing was silly, personally :-P
1126. # [23:07] <annevk> well it's a gang sign :)
1127. # [23:10] <annevk> so in http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#writing should I have "A URL is a string that might identify a resource. A *valid URL* identifies a resource and is either a relative URL or an absolute URL."
1128. # [23:10] <annevk> Hixie: ^^
1129. # [23:10] <Hixie> a valid URL might not identify a resource
1130. # [23:10] <Hixie> e.g. a relative URL without a base URL is valid, as is a urn: URL.
1131. # [23:10] <annevk> my definition of valid URL was going to be more restricted
1132. # [23:10] <Hixie> "A URL is a string that might identify a resource. A *valid URL* absolute URL."
1133. # [23:10] <Hixie> er
1134. # [23:11] <Hixie> mispaste
1135. # [23:11] <Hixie> you don't want urn:s to be valid? o_O
1136. # [23:11] <Hixie> if you define "valid URL" as something that "identifies a resource" you're going to have to define "resource"
1137. # [23:11] <Hixie> i don't recommend that rat hole
1138. # [23:11] <Hixie> it's not scenic
1139. # [23:12] <Ms2ger> 'The term "resource" is defined in HTML.'
1140. # [23:12] <annevk> I think I copied that bit from HTML actually
1141. # [23:12] <Hixie> (also, I wouldn't define valid URL as "either a relative URL or an absolute URL", I'd define it as "either a valid relative URL or a valid absolute URL" :-)
1142. # [23:12] <Hixie> HTML says "A URL is a string used to identify a resource.
1143. # [23:12] <Hixie> A URL is a valid URL if at least one of the following conditions holds:
1144. # [23:12] <Hixie> * [four links to STD 66]"
1145. # [23:13] <annevk> What I meant was that I wanted to outlaw "../" if the base URL is e.g. "about:blank"
1146. # [23:13] * Quits: Martin_L (~Martin_L@81-233-190-9-no212.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
1147. # [23:13] <Hixie> (and the term "resource" in HTML doesn't include things like mailto: targets, it's only things that could be HTTP bodies)
1148. # [23:14] <Hixie> annevk: that makes sense, i guess
1149. # [23:14] <annevk> Hixie: so you don't include "mailto:x@x" in your definition of URL?!
1150. # [23:14] <Hixie> i don't include "resource" in my definition of URL
1151. # [23:14] <Hixie> at least, not in a normative way
1152. # [23:14] <Hixie> "used to identify a resource" is fluff in that definition above
1153. # [23:15] <annevk> I think it's the same in mine
1154. # [23:15] <annevk> but do you really want the spec to both define "valid relative URL" and "relative URL" ?
1155. # [23:16] <annevk> Hixie: the way HTML defines documents also excludes invalid documents
1156. # [23:16] <annevk> Hixie: in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#writing
1157. # [23:17] * Quits: vikash (~vikash@unaffiliated/vikash) (Quit: Leaving)
1158. # [23:17] <Hixie> i dunno that it's useful to define "relative URL" really, no. I'm just worried people will say "that's not a relative URL!" when pointing at "%", and miss the point that it's a URL anyway.
1159. # [23:17] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.19.229.getinternet.no) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1160. # [23:17] <Hixie> that section doesn't define documents
1161. # [23:17] <Hixie> it defines conformance criteria for documents
1162. # [23:17] <Hixie> that is, it doesn't say "documents are", it says "documents must"
1163. # [23:17] <annevk> right, this is conformance criteria for URLs
1164. # [23:18] <Hixie> well it's fine to say "URLs must ..."
1165. # [23:18] <Hixie> jsut not "URLs are [something that doesn't include all strigns]"
1166. # [23:18] <Hixie> woo, typos galore
1167. # [23:18] <annevk> okay, so I'll replace some are with must there
1168. # [23:19] <annevk> I guess I'm there if I say "a URL must be either a relative URL or an absolute URL"
1169. # [23:19] <annevk> because the rest is then required by virtue of that being required
1170. # [23:19] * Quits: atraver (~adam.trav@64.201.247.5) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1171. # [23:19] * Joins: atraver_ (~adam.trav@2001:470:802a:150:8529:ae5:c9d3:e7be)
1172. # [23:19] <Hixie> yes, that's fine
1173. # [23:20] <Hixie> though it would be convenient for HTML's sake if you just defined "URL" and "valid URL" instead. :-P
1174. # [23:20] <Hixie> but i'll live either way
1175. # [23:21] * annevk takes a look at usage in HTML
1176. # [23:21] <annevk> ooh, only 218 hits
1177. # [23:23] * Quits: thisgeek (~chris@ool-45757782.dyn.optonline.net) (Quit: thisgeek)
1178. # [23:23] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi)
1179. # [23:23] <annevk> Hixie: I can define those non-empty URL / URL with spaces concepts for you without the word valid ;)
1180. # [23:24] <Hixie> my concern isn't those, it's more with being able to talk about things that are URLs without having people say "well it's not valid so it doesn't apply"
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1183. # [23:24] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.108.40)
1184. # [23:24] <Hixie> the concern is greater with the concept of URLs because of the people who historically have worked with URLs
1185. # [23:25] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
1186. # [23:25] <annevk> well, does HTML say the document "<x>" is HTML?
1187. # [23:25] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.108.40) (Client Quit)
1188. # [23:26] <Hixie> whether something is HTML or not depends on how it's labeled
1189. # [23:26] <Hixie> per the spec
1190. # [23:26] <Hixie> and not on whether it's valid
1191. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> Every possible sequence of bytes is HTML if it's labelled correctly.
1192. # [23:26] <Hixie> right
1193. # [23:26] <Hixie> including no bytes
1194. # [23:27] <annevk> I think we should have the same for URLs
1195. # [23:27] <Hixie> i agree
1196. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> Yeah. Similarly, anything inside of @href is a URL, though maybe not a valid one.
1197. # [23:27] <Hixie> right
1198. # [23:27] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
1199. # [23:27] <Hixie> the difference is that URLs tend not to be explicitly labeled the way documents are
1200. # [23:27] <annevk> The "Writing" section just defines URL conformance
1201. # [23:28] <annevk> well, how to write URLs
1202. # [23:28] <jgraham> Obviously they need a mime type!
1203. # [23:28] <annevk> jgraham: there's text/uri-list or some such...
1204. # [23:28] <jgraham> <a href="foo" type="text/url">
1205. # [23:28] <jgraham> Then we could replace srcdoc with <iframe src="<p>foo" type="text/html">
1206. # [23:29] <jgraham> And then we could replace all tags with <object>
1207. # [23:29] <jgraham> Then our work would be done
1208. # [23:29] <annevk> Hixie: maybe I need to move "A URL is a string to identify a resource" out of the writing section?
1209. # [23:29] * Quits: dgathright (~dgathrigh@nat/yahoo/x-fjgrzggjbhbeckpr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1210. # [23:29] * Joins: dgathright_ (~dgathrigh@c-67-169-92-165.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
1211. # [23:32] * Ms2ger tries to figure out what annevk did to the anolis repo
1212. # [23:32] <annevk> Hixie: a) I want to define conformance for URLs so validators can give useful messages to developers and we can maybe tie the parser into it somehow for people who want strict parsing (similar to HTML) b) I don't want to end up defining every term related to URL twice, once restricted and once unrestricted
1213. # [23:35] <Hixie> annevk: yeah! that sounds like a good plan (moving the definition of URL away from its authoring conformance criteria)
1214. # [23:35] <Hixie> annevk: agreed entirely with not defining things twice.
1215. # [23:35] <Hixie> annevk: different section should be enough
1216. # [23:36] * Joins: Martijnc (~Martijnc@d54C38583.access.telenet.be)
1217. # [23:37] * Joins: thisgeek (~chris@ool-45757d25.dyn.optonline.net)
1218. # [23:38] <Hixie> annevk: ok i suggested replacing STD 66 with your spec once you're done, we'll see how that goes
1219. # [23:39] * Quits: michaeln (michaeln@nat/google/x-sjgtajfzfbewfbrk) (Quit: Leaving.)
1220. # [23:40] <annevk> oh that thread :)
1221. # [23:43] <Hixie> hm, no heycam
1222. # [23:48] <Ms2ger> Gone until the fifth, it seems
1223. # [23:55] * Quits: abarth_ (~abarth@216.239.55.138) (Quit: abarth_)
1224. # [23:58] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
1225. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> Le sigh. People questioned the need for a state-machine parser for CSS. The grammar is enough to get convergence, they said. LIES.
1226. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> Every single browser does a different, uniquely stupid, thing with NULLs in stylesheets, with the treatment varying randomly depending on exactly where the NULL shows up.
1227. # [23:58] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-222.net-80-236-80.issy.rev.numericable.fr) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1228. # [23:59] * Joins: michaeln (michaeln@nat/google/x-pwbdjvebrwdfavrt)
1229. # Session Close: Wed Oct 24 00:00:00 2012

The end :)