/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-10-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Oct 27 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:27] <GPHemsley> gee, this place sure empties out on a Friday afternoon...
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  14. # [00:38] <Hixie> GPHemsley: i try to avoid having anything depend on the exist meaning of the word "resource", but the html spec has some handwaving about it somewhere
  15. # [00:39] <Hixie> GPHemsley: in particular, things to be wary of (and reasons not to use the term "file") include that resources can be infinite, that they might have no name or metadata, that they might be finite but slow (e.g. 10 bytes spread over 10 seconds, impossible to get quicker), etc
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  21. # [00:56] <Hixie> hmmmmmmm.
  22. # [00:57] <Hixie> i wonder if instead of a shared or dedicated worker, it should be a new kind of worker
  23. # [00:57] <Hixie> ApplicationCacheInterceptWorkerGlobalScope or something
  24. # [00:58] <Hixie> it wouldn't be something you can _directly_ communicate with, but you could have it connect to a shared worker and share stuff that way
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  27. # [01:11] <Hixie> are XHR headers ordered? anyone know?
  28. # [01:11] <Hixie> looks like yes
  29. # [01:11] <Hixie> i wonder if it's ok to drop the sort order for request headers across names
  30. # [01:13] <Velmont> 21:18 < annevk> Velmont: didn't dare to mention green? :p
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  32. # [01:14] <Velmont> annevk: Hehe... I was actually more specifically talking about IndexedDB, and this was specifically for writing tests, so no wonder they should use the real (ED) version.
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  34. # [01:15] <Velmont> annevk: But I did say «Don't ever see blue, like ever, this should always be red. If it's blue, you're looking at some outdated old crap» <-- something like that.
  35. # [01:15] <Velmont> Fired people up well and good ;-P
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  69. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> Hixie: several datetime examples have fractional-second parts longer than three digits
  70. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> I'll file a bug
  71. # [05:28] <GPHemsley> how do we generally define flags? <dfn> for global scope and <var> for local scope?
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  73. # [05:41] <GPHemsley> hmm... it seems I may not be the only one to allow "application/octet-stream" fall victim to find and replace
  74. # [05:43] <GPHemsley> "there actually are hardware architectures where one
  75. # [05:43] <GPHemsley> byte is 32 bits"
  76. # [05:44] <GPHemsley> his hardware architecture has a big byte, if you know what I mean
  77. # [05:44] <zewt> do i have to make the sir mixalot joke
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  79. # [05:52] <JonathanNeal> What are the pros and cons of dropping the <ul> and </li> in an HTML structure like <nav><a href="1">1</a><a href="2">2</a><a href="3">3</a></nav>?
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  81. # [05:55] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Does HTML use xref? I see MIMESNIFF in HTML, but it's not in references.json.
  82. # [05:58] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Also, what is this? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/epub.html
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  106. # [08:29] <annevk> GPHemsley: it doesn't
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  111. # [08:46] <annevk> anyone awake that can help sketching a path API?
  112. # [08:46] <annevk> it's effectively a list of strings, but you also want to set them
  113. # [08:48] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  114. # [08:49] <annevk> URLPath -> list of URLPathSegment -> URLPathSegment.segment; .path[0].segment = ? it seems so cumbersome
  115. # [08:50] <annevk> and I guess you want a shortcut for the last segment, should we call that filename? ...
  116. # [08:50] <annevk> meh
  117. # [08:53] <annevk> could also do getPath and setPath
  118. # [08:53] <annevk> getPath returns a list, setPath takes the ... thingie
  119. # [08:53] <annevk> (keep forgetting the name)
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  122. # [08:58] <SimonSapin> annevk: the last segment could be basename
  123. # [08:59] <annevk> ah interesting
  124. # [09:00] <SimonSapin> that’s how it’s called at least in unix and python
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  126. # [09:02] <SimonSapin> annevk: what else do you want in this API? Set individual segments?
  127. # [09:03] <annevk> yeah, just give people some more control over URLs
  128. # [09:03] <annevk> I think the get/setPath thingie might be good enough, but if there's a better alternative...
  129. # [09:04] <SimonSapin> dirname is the complement to basename; not sure if it is useful
  130. # [09:05] <SimonSapin> you can already parse ".." with the previous URL as the base
  131. # [09:06] <annevk> relPathname might be interesting, resolves the new path against the old path, returns the same as pathname
  132. # [09:08] <annevk> I emailed a bit with Rodney from http://medialize.github.com/URI.js/
  133. # [09:09] <annevk> he suggested that on the server you want to have an API for the "effective TLD" (publicsuffix.org)
  134. # [09:09] <annevk> not sure how much usage that would have client-side
  135. # [09:10] <annevk> e.g. that if you have "amazon.co.uk" in your URL and you do something like URL.effectiveTLD = "com"
  136. # [09:10] <annevk> and you end up with amazon.com
  137. # [09:10] <annevk> I guess I can note it down
  138. # [09:11] <annevk> prolly also useful for cookies
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  141. # [09:25] <annevk> arv: feedback welcome on https://github.com/whatwg/url/commit/e68d34885b7ec3dc44d7124e93de5bd5f1718e4e
  142. # [09:26] <annevk> abarth: ^^
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  145. # [09:32] <abarth> annevk: please no effectiveTLD
  146. # [09:32] <abarth> annevk: that needs to die in a fire
  147. # [09:32] <abarth> its not interoperable
  148. # [09:32] <annevk> how can it die without security problems?
  149. # [09:32] <abarth> we shouldn't expose it in the API
  150. # [09:33] <abarth> its bad enough that we use it for cookies
  151. # [09:33] <abarth> we shouldn't be using it in new places in the platform
  152. # [09:35] <annevk> okay
  153. # [09:35] <annevk> noted
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  159. # [10:08] <annevk> found a way to support parsing file: URLs without introducing extra state: https://github.com/whatwg/url/commit/c7e2c5fbc63710b5421889add11add6f7d19f67d
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  161. # [10:08] <annevk> that's prolly enough for today
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  171. # [10:50] <asmodai> You guys seen http://www.firstmenonthemoon.com/ ?
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  173. # [10:51] <WeirdAl> anyone awake? I'm wondering about why TreeWalker.nextNode doesn't honor FILTER_REJECT.
  174. # [10:55] <Ms2ger> Blame... jst, I guess
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  188. # [12:01] <divya> TabAtkins: JOIN #testtwf
  189. # [12:17] <divya> TabAtkins: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19736
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  256. # [16:37] <GPHemsley> So, do we talk about flags as set or unset? Or can we talk about them as set to true or set to false?
  257. # [16:38] <Ms2ger> set/unset
  258. # [16:40] <zcorpan_> GPHemsley: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/websec/trac/report/1?asc=0&sort=component lists issues with mimesniff
  259. # [16:41] <GPHemsley> zcorpan_: Woah. OK, thanks.
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  265. # [17:04] <zcorpan_> annevk: is the input to "parse URL" a sequence of unicode characters? or utf-16 code units?
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  269. # [17:12] <zewt> unsurprised at the name of the person that reopened 12510 ...
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  271. # [17:13] <Ms2ger> annevk, yep, there's a bug on IDL waiting for heycam to come back
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  274. # [17:15] <annevk5> zcorpan_: code points, see public-script-coord for my UTFString proposal
  275. # [17:15] <zcorpan_> annevk5: thanks
  276. # [17:16] <annevk5> (no need to make the IETF more upset than strictly necessary
  277. # [17:16] <annevk5> ))
  278. # [17:17] <zewt> somehow seems like an odd thing to define at the IDL level, though I'm not sure I could say exactly why
  279. # [17:18] <zewt> seems more like a part of apis than a language binding thing
  280. # [17:21] <annevk5> IDL does a lot of conversion, this is not really new and besides, it's a lot simpler than the alternative
  281. # [17:22] <annevk5> WeirdAl: I'm not opposed to extending TreeWalker more, but if there's just a few people using it, is it really worth it?
  282. # [17:22] * WeirdAl shrugs
  283. # [17:22] <WeirdAl> actually I wanted to ask you about nextNode - why does it not honor FILTER_REJECT?
  284. # [17:23] <WeirdAl> previousNode does at least glance at that
  285. # [17:23] <zewt> isn't it pretty simple to define "execute a callback with error handling" and just use that where wanted
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  287. # [17:24] <zewt> i mean, wouldn't doing this in webidl mean webidl would have to know about "window" in the first place? seems like webidl is lower level than that
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  289. # [17:24] <annevk5> oh you meant the exception thing
  290. # [17:24] <WeirdAl> dammit, I hate control-Q
  291. # [17:24] * GPHemsley worries that notes within a list are indented too much and may be confused with lists within lists.
  292. # [17:24] <WeirdAl> I missed whatever you said :(
  293. # [17:24] <annevk5> WeirdAl: that might be a bug actually
  294. # [17:25] <annevk5> WeirdAl: do browsers agree or disagree with the spec?
  295. # [17:25] <annevk5> WeirdAl: if they disagree it's a bug for sure...
  296. # [17:25] <WeirdAl> honestly I usually think only of Mozilla ;0
  297. # [17:25] <WeirdAl> ;)
  298. # [17:26] <WeirdAl> I think their impl matches the spec. Again, I was looking for an explanation of why FILTER_REJECT doesn't factor in.
  299. # [17:26] <annevk5> so the new spec is based on Gecko, might get circular
  300. # [17:26] <WeirdAl> figures :p
  301. # [17:28] <annevk5> the spec has a
  302. # [17:28] <zewt> n unwanted newline
  303. # [17:28] <WeirdAl> and actually I wasn't referring to any exception - just that when I am done iterating over currentNode's descendants, later nodes might ignore FILTER_REJECT
  304. # [17:28] <annevk5> `<!-- XXX WTF? -->` for sibling traversal
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  306. # [17:31] <WeirdAl> hehe
  307. # [17:31] <annevk5> zewt: dunno about the exception thing, but DOM does not know about the global object, IDL does I think at the binding level
  308. # [17:31] <annevk5> WeirdAl: bug + testcase would help, but if the other browsers agree with Gecko there's not much we can do I think
  309. # [17:32] * WeirdAl frets
  310. # [17:32] * GPHemsley wonders how annevk uses flags and <b>
  311. # [17:33] <WeirdAl> annevk - maybe I should ask smaug - he's familiar enough to know the why's
  312. # [17:34] <annevk5> GPHemsley: unset/set
  313. # [17:34] <annevk5> GPHemsley: <b> is when I don't want to use <dfn>
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  315. # [17:35] <GPHemsley> annevk5: In what conditions does that occur?
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  318. # [17:36] <annevk5> GPHemsley: lazy, or when <dfn> feels like overkill
  319. # [17:36] <zewt> annevk: fyi, onerror is also fired as a real DOM event
  320. # [17:36] <annevk5> mostly the latter I guess
  321. # [17:39] <GPHemsley> annevk5: What's the SOP for using words like perform/execute/rules/steps, etc.?
  322. # [17:39] <zewt> (much more usefully, too, at least in chrome; the DOM event gives separate "message", "file", "lineno" properties, where window.onerror is just a string)
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  324. # [17:40] <annevk5> zewt: window.onerror is a callback with multiple arguments
  325. # [17:40] <annevk5> zewt: all of those...
  326. # [17:41] <annevk5> GPHemsley: whatever fits the context
  327. # [17:41] <zewt> oh yeah, can never remember that, but anyway the point is webidl surely shouldn't be firing events
  328. # [17:41] <GPHemsley> annevk5: Alright, well, you let me know if it doesn't fit the context :P
  329. # [17:42] <annevk5> zewt: that's not the suggestion
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  331. # [17:42] <annevk5> HTML defines window.onerror
  332. # [17:44] <annevk5> IDL defines invoking callbacks and it should define where their exceptions go
  333. # [17:45] <annevk5> or provide some hook for HTML to hook into, but this is not a matter for the DOM
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  350. # [18:37] * GPHemsley wonders what to do with a lot of ands and ors
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  353. # [18:42] <Philip`> GPHemsley: Disjunctively normalise them
  354. # [18:43] <GPHemsley> Philip`: Can you give me an example? I have ( x && ( y || ( z && w ) ) )
  355. # [18:43] <Philip`> (x && y) || (x && z && w)
  356. # [18:44] <GPHemsley> aw, boo
  357. # [18:44] <GPHemsley> alright
  358. # [18:45] * Philip` has no idea what the context of the question was, and wasn't attempting to give a serious answer
  359. # [18:45] <GPHemsley> well, it solves the problem
  360. # [18:46] <GPHemsley> it just duplicates wordage
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  362. # [18:47] <Philip`> Define short terms to refer to the wordy concepts
  363. # [18:51] <GPHemsley> it's alright
  364. # [18:51] <GPHemsley> they're fairly short already
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  366. # [18:56] <hsivonen> SGML reverse Huffman coded the terminology and gave the longest names to the most commonly talked about concepts
  367. # [18:56] <hsivonen> as in external document type definition subset
  368. # [19:07] <Hixie> GPHemsley: my references system is to put all the references at the bottom of the source file, and then have code to filter out the ones that aren't used
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  371. # [19:09] <GPHemsley> Hixie: You like to buck every system, huh? :P
  372. # [19:16] <Hixie> to be fair, the html spec predates most of these systems :-P
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  388. # [19:54] <GPHemsley> Comments welcome on my latest mimesniff commit
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  392. # [20:00] * GPHemsley wonders if he is the only one who ever uses the wiki
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  407. # [21:11] <annevk> GPHemsley: x and either y or z and w
  408. # [21:13] <annevk> (answering your question above, not saying you have to write it like that)
  409. # [21:15] <annevk> GPHemsley: convention is to lowercase RFC2119 terms
  410. # [21:15] <annevk> GPHemsley: convention is to end flag terms with " flag"
  411. # [21:15] <annevk> GPHemsley: convention is to lowercase user agent
  412. # [21:16] <annevk> GPHemsley: convention is to put <code title> around strings, such as "<code title>text/xml</code>"
  413. # [21:18] <annevk> GPHemsley: I would combine the "Begin reading" and "Continue reading" steps as "Read bytes from the resource into /buffer/ until one of ..."
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  416. # [21:20] <annevk> GPHemsley: as for your XXX comments, did you check whether e.g. "image/blahblah" is sniffed?
  417. # [21:20] <annevk> GPHemsley: because if that's not going to be snfifed, there's your reason ;)
  418. # [21:21] <annevk> GPHemsley: oh, and I use the wiki :)
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  433. # [22:31] <JonathanNeal> Surely <nav> handles this now? http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#group-bypass
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  440. # [22:48] <annevk_> Transmission.app software update: "Fix crash when adding magnet links with malformed webseeds"; "Fix handling of magnet links' webseed URLs that contain whitespace"; but but but URI implementations are interoperable!!1!
  441. # [22:50] <zewt> i thought the argument was "so what if implementations aren't interoperable, that's not the spec's problem"
  442. # [22:50] <zewt> not that the arguments are necessarily coherent
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  445. # [22:58] <stevefaulkner> JonathanNeal: how does <nav> handle it?
  446. # [22:58] <annevk_> Yeah dunno, I guess I'll hear a few more next week
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  448. # [22:59] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
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  450. # [23:00] <JonathanNeal> stevefaulkner: i missed the <img>, I was looking into an accessibility issue, where I was told to include non-link, printable characters (surrounded by spaces) between adjacent links.
  451. # [23:01] <JonathanNeal> I want to do something like <nav><a href="#foo">Foo</a> <a href="#bar">Bar</a></nav>
  452. # [23:02] <stevefaulkner> JonathanNeal: <nav><a href="#foo">Foo</a>, <a href="#bar">Bar</a></nav> ?
  453. # [23:02] <JonathanNeal> Yea, dropping the ul and li's.
  454. # [23:04] <stevefaulkner> JonathonNeal: i wouldn't use wist for 2 links but if you have a set of related links a list is the best way to group them
  455. # [23:04] <JonathanNeal> How would a <nav> fail to do this?
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  457. # [23:06] <stevefaulkner> JonathanNeal: it does not convey a a list semantic in any browser
  458. # [23:06] <JonathanNeal> The nav element represents a section of a page that links to other pages or to parts within the page: a section with navigation links.
  459. # [23:07] <JonathanNeal> I don't see how sub-organizing those links into a list is necessary. It could be done, certainly, but it's no longer necessary.
  460. # [23:08] <stevefaulkner> JonathanNeal: what it says it does in the spec is a fiction unless the semantics are expressed via browsers
  461. # [23:08] <JonathanNeal> Well, when I tested it with VoiceOver and Jaws I did not experience a loss.
  462. # [23:10] <JonathanNeal> It certainly doesn't break any semantics.
  463. # [23:10] <stevefaulkner> JonathanNeal: a list conveys explicitly a set of items, <nav> or any other grouping semantic does not
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  466. # [23:13] <stevefaulkner> JonathanNeal: <nav> provides less structural information as implemented and in some browsers (IE for example) does not even convey the fact that its navigation links
  467. # [23:15] <stevefaulkner> <nav role="navigation> has better support across browsers and AT
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  474. # [23:25] <JonathanNeal> Sure, though isn't <nav> supposed to inherently have that role?
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  476. # [23:33] <zcorpan> annevk: is there a place already where url test cases should live?
  477. # [23:36] <annevk> prolly the same place AryehGregor ends up putting the encoding tests?
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  479. # [23:37] <annevk> https://github.com/annevk/url has some tests fwiw, mostly copied from WebKit with some changes
  480. # [23:37] <annevk> (changes are annotated)
  481. # [23:37] <annevk> (but that parser does not yet have file URL parsing)
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  483. # [23:39] <annevk> Why does http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html not mention the Unicode restrictions made in the parser?
  484. # [23:39] <annevk> E.g. disallowing U+3FFFF
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  487. # [23:52] <annevk> Context: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19743
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  489. # [23:57] <jgraham> Things that make me sad: specs without dfn.js
  490. # [23:57] <GPHemsley> annevk: Ah, convention! That's the word I've been looking for!
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  492. # [23:58] <GPHemsley> annevk: Regarding my XXX comments: What if an image is tagged "image/blahblah" but is actually "image/gif"?
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  494. # Session Close: Sun Oct 28 00:00:00 2012

The end :)