/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-10-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Oct 29 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <wilhelm> 1. Drink wine. 2. Write agenda for WG meeting. 3. ???
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  7. # [00:16] <zewt> goto 1
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  100. # [07:46] <asmodai> interesting WebGL shader experiment http://glsl.heroku.com/e#4039.0
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  123. # [08:49] <jgraham> Hixie: Yeah, my opinion on those is "just pick something sensible"
  124. # [08:50] <jgraham> I suppose there is some danger that a too-rigid heirachy stops people from writing that kind of test at all
  125. # [08:50] <jgraham> But it doesn't seem that likely
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  207. # [11:40] <asmodai> gsnedders: just saw your code review tweet arrive via acquaintances, nifty!
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  267. # [14:06] <smaug____> where is anne
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  271. # [14:10] <hsivonen> there he is
  272. # [14:10] <hober> he was with jeff earlier
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  275. # [14:11] <hsivonen> cunning timing
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  283. # [14:20] <annevk> I talked with W3C's CEO, we could not reach some kind of agreement for now where the W3C would publish the WHATWG standards either with a permissive license or with me editing the WHATWG standards as is and publishing them under a restrictive license at the W3C.
  284. # [14:21] <annevk> So the situation will be that the W3C looks for editors to fork the WHATWG work under their license, which comes down to the same thing, but is more agreeable apparently.
  285. # [14:21] <hober> :(
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  287. # [14:22] <hsivonen> :-(
  288. # [14:24] <annevk> He made it quite clear that he is not the person that can make this change. Member companies, including those representing browsers, would have to feel strongly about this for change to happen.
  289. # [14:25] <hsivonen> is this about different rules for Invited Experts vs. Members? there is Member precedent for this scnario, right?
  290. # [14:25] <hsivonen> specifically, Hixie specs
  291. # [14:26] <hsivonen> so the AC makes things bad again?
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  293. # [14:26] <hsivonen> why does the CEO need to make this an AC issue?
  294. # [14:26] <hober> IIRC the relevant precedent is the non-exclusive copyright that a/o/m granted: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/0429.html
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  296. # [14:27] <hsivonen> why not just not ask the AC?
  297. # [14:27] <annevk> No, I think the rules are roughly the same there. They do not see that as a precedent they want to repeat even though it is repeating essentially anyway (with different editors). Thinking about it more makes it harder for me to understand their position.
  298. # [14:28] <annevk> They did ask the AC and a vocal minority said no (including some browser representatives I'm led to believe) and a vocal majority declined to comment.
  299. # [14:28] <annevk> *non-vocal majority, doh
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  301. # [14:29] <annevk> and maybe not declined, but just did not comment
  302. # [14:29] <hsivonen> what's the upside of having your work published by the W3C? just the PP or do the threaten to ban normative refs to your stuff?
  303. # [14:30] <othermaciej> it seems like the biggest benefit would be to the w3c
  304. # [14:31] <annevk> The W3C believes their DNA is to be the standards body of the web (minus I suppose the little misdirection with regard to XHTML and such). From the perspective of being the standards body of the web, it makes sense to publish the standards that comprise it.
  305. # [14:31] * hsivonen thinks it was a strategic error to ask the AC instead of relxing stuff by executive order
  306. # [14:32] <annevk> Agreed, this was something timbl should have just told the world about how it is.
  307. # [14:32] <annevk> s/was/is/
  308. # [14:37] <zcorpan> annevk: the browsers i have seem to fail http://simon.html5.org/test/css/css-charset/page-utf16-css-no-decl.html :-(
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  310. # [14:40] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: The anolis readme has not been updated to link to bitbucket instead of gsnedders
  311. # [14:43] <zcorpan> annevk: http://simon.html5.org/test/css/css-charset/page-utf16-css-no-decl-ascii-only.html - still fails
  312. # [14:49] * [[zzz]] is now known as [[zz]]
  313. # [14:50] * karlcow is not sure how hsivonen makes executive order compatible with no member companies. It seems strange. I mean on the logical level.
  314. # [14:50] <zcorpan> annevk: http://simon.html5.org/test/css/css-charset/page-windows-1251-css-at-charset-utf16.html is kinda what hsivonen asked for. except the stylesheet ruleset is ascii-compatible
  315. # [14:52] <karlcow> The only way I see it changing is by convincing companies that it is in their own interests to do the work. Somehow it seems partly more a fight of some company employees with their own companies. :/ difficult issue.
  316. # [14:52] <karlcow> s/to do the work/to relax the license/ brain fork
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  318. # [14:53] <annevk> zcorpan: so if you make an ASCII-only CSS file of that too, we can find out if browsers decode it as utf-16 or the page encoding
  319. # [14:53] <annevk> zcorpan: now the fail is ambiguous
  320. # [14:54] <zcorpan> annevk: http://simon.html5.org/test/css/css-charset/page-windows-1251-css-at-charset-utf16-ascii-only.html
  321. # [14:54] <annevk> whoa, both Opera and Gecko fail
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  323. # [14:55] <annevk> CSS 2.1 requires them to fail, but still that is some pretty crazy requirement to begin with...
  324. # [14:55] <hsivonen> from code inspection, gecko decodes as utf-16 if @charset claims so
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  326. # [14:56] <zcorpan> opera even decodes http://simon.html5.org/test/css/css-charset/at-charset-utf16-ascii-only.css as utf-16 when loading in a top-level browsing context
  327. # [14:57] <zcorpan> (might be a cache thing)
  328. # [14:57] <hsivonen> in gecko, the code path is totally different for that
  329. # [14:57] <hsivonen> top level context uses text/plain code
  330. # [14:57] <hsivonen> i.e. HTML with meta disabled
  331. # [14:58] <zcorpan> i thought we use text/plain behavior as well, but it's likely that we remember the encoding we used for decoding the file as a stylesheet
  332. # [14:58] <zcorpan> there are issues like that
  333. # [14:58] <hsivonen> we should too but I think I accidentally broke that
  334. # [14:59] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  335. # [14:59] <zcorpan> are there other cases i should test?
  336. # [15:00] <zcorpan> should we change the inherit-utf-16 case?
  337. # [15:01] <annevk> zcorpan: can you do "IndexOptions DescriptionWidth=*"
  338. # [15:01] <annevk> see http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/mod/mod_autoindex.html for other options
  339. # [15:02] <annevk> sorry
  340. # [15:02] <annevk> NameWidth=* is the one
  341. # [15:02] * boaz is now known as boaz|away
  342. # [15:02] <zcorpan> done
  343. # [15:03] <annevk> zcorpan: xml-stylesheet test? hsivonen said Gecko supports charset= there
  344. # [15:03] <zcorpan> i guess i can test with bogus decl in more places and see that it falls back to a recognized label at different places
  345. # [15:04] <zcorpan> ah yeah
  346. # [15:05] * boaz|away is now known as boaz
  347. # [15:05] <hsivonen> do we know yet what exactly @charset "utf-16"; does in WebKit and IE
  348. # [15:05] <hsivonen> what Gecko does makes no sense
  349. # [15:07] <asmodai> w3.org dead due to Sandy?
  350. # [15:07] <hober> asmodai: or tpac
  351. # [15:07] <annevk> zcorpan: do you know what step 3 does in IE? The utf-16 -> utf-8 thing for @charset
  352. # [15:08] <zcorpan> no. don't have ie
  353. # [15:08] <annevk> ah, hsivonen asked the same
  354. # [15:08] <asmodai> hober: :\
  355. # [15:08] <annevk> yeah me neither :/
  356. # [15:08] <annevk> oh wait
  357. # [15:08] <karlcow> asmodai: working for me
  358. # [15:08] <asmodai> karlcow: Ah, it's back now
  359. # [15:09] <asmodai> couldn't reach it in the past 5-10 minutes or so
  360. # [15:09] <asmodai> Still has problems loading chrome, heh
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  363. # [15:11] <hsivonen> sad when the position is "we need need to ask lawyers"
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  365. # [15:13] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/css/css-charset/xml-stylesheet-page-windows-1251-charset-attribute-windows-1250.xhtml hmm. elm is null. is there something about <div id="&#x010C;"></div> not doing what it looks like it does in XML?
  366. # [15:14] <annevk> it returns Č afaict
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  383. # [15:53] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://simon.html5.org/test/css/css-charset/page-windows-1251-css-at-charset-utf16.html - webkit uses utf-8 for @charset "utf-16" afaict
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  385. # [15:54] <hsivonen> zcorpan: good. so the rule is not inventing something new
  386. # [15:54] <zcorpan> i solved the xml issue by setting .id in script
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  401. # [16:12] <zcorpan> hsivonen: firefox seems to fail (all?) the "bogus" tests
  402. # [16:12] <zcorpan> e.g. http://simon.html5.org/test/css/css-charset/page-windows-1251-css-http-bogus-at-charset-windows-1250.html
  403. # [16:14] <annevk> zcorpan: you mean they apply the "get an encoding" step at the end?
  404. # [16:14] <zcorpan> i haven't figured out what gecko does exactly
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  425. # [17:03] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  470. # [17:53] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: any idea where css tests should be submitted? http://hg.csswg.org/test ? http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/ ?
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  480. # [18:13] <zcorpan> do non-gecko browsers on windows do the file://c:/something -> file:///c:/something thing?
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  483. # [18:15] <GPHemsley> annevk: I wonder if we could abstract the decoder algorithm in encoding out to that generic definition document? I seem to be writing almost the same thing for mimesniff, at least in terms of reading bytes and keeping track of the pointer, etc.
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  486. # [18:20] * GPHemsley wonders why you can't highlight a line in the logs as important after 24 hours.
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  549. # [20:29] <Hixie> TabAtkins: src="url(foo)" behaviour is already pretty much fixed in stone, fwiw (it's the same as src="url%28foo%29", more or less)
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  551. # [20:29] <Hixie> (i onl briefly glanced at the thread so please disregard if my statement is redundant :-) )
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  583. # [21:45] <bencc> websocket is version 13
  584. # [21:45] <bencc> is it possible that in the future there will be version 14, 15... ?
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  587. # Session Close: Mon Oct 29 21:50:54 2012
  588. #
  589. # Session Start: Mon Oct 29 21:50:54 2012
  590. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  591. # [21:50] * Disconnected
  592. # [21:51] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  593. # [21:52] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  594. # [21:52] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  595. # [21:52] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
  596. # [21:52] <krijn> That's correct usage :)
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  600. # [21:54] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: Oh, subtle!
  601. # [21:54] <Ms2ger> Hmm? :)
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  605. # [22:01] <Ms2ger> Anything interesting happened in the webapps meeting, btw?
  606. # [22:02] * Ms2ger confirms nor denies he wrote multicol and flexbox tests
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  610. # [22:09] <pablof> TabAtkins: is window.CSS in some spec?
  611. # [22:10] <Ms2ger> Not yet, I don't think
  612. # [22:14] <isaacd> Running validator.nu code locally is now giving me an exception. (Re-checking-out-and-building didn't help. Error log: http://pastebin.com/r2i3LrX2 )
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  617. # [22:20] * GPHemsley enjoys tagging random elements with 'class=XXX' to see how badly the styling breaks.
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  639. # [23:10] <roc> what's Philip Jagenstadt's IRC nick again?
  640. # [23:11] <Ms2ger> foolip
  641. # [23:11] <roc> thank you sir
  642. # [23:11] <Ms2ger> Np
  643. # [23:11] <roc> foolip: Web Audio once again requires the attention of someone who groks Web standards
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  645. # [23:12] <Ms2ger> Hixie, pointers to callbacks that do propagate exceptions?
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  650. # [23:18] <Hixie> Ms2ger: i dunno
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  671. # Session Close: Tue Oct 30 00:00:00 2012

The end :)