/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-10-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 31 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:06] <zcorpan> http://filamentgroup.com/lab/rwd_img_compression/ is interesting
  4. # [00:07] <zcorpan> if that is good enough for retina, yet has smaller file size than what people do today for non-retina, it seems like a solved problem with just <img src>.
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  6. # [00:09] <zcorpan> well, <img src width height>. we might want a way to say "2x" without knowing the exact dimensions
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  9. # [00:10] <zewt> fg
  10. # [00:10] <WeirdAl> Hey folks - looking at svn.whatwg.org/webapps, and I'm wondering how the multipage version is generated... I'm wondering if you have a script for that which could be checked in. :)
  11. # [00:10] <zewt> yeah, that.
  12. # [00:10] <zcorpan> (and design a solution just for the remaining problems with the art direction use case)
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  17. # [00:12] <zewt> dear whoever this person is: files are not measured in pounds
  18. # [00:13] <zcorpan> i wonder how webp compares with this technique
  19. # [00:14] <zewt> zcorpan: it's roundabout, but it sounds like a wordy way of saying "high pixel density images can tolerate more artifacts" and "just quadruple your image resolution and target the same file size"
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  21. # [00:14] <zewt> it's roundabout, so i'm not sure if i'm getting from it what was intended (and I'm a bit distracted)
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  23. # [00:15] <zcorpan> zewt: right. though the bigger image has worse artifacts even when scaled down for the sky, as the first comment points out. which is why i wonder how webp compares.
  24. # [00:16] <zewt> a proper test would be three images: low-dpi high-bitrate ("regular"), high-dpi high-bitrate ("regular retina") and high-dpi low-bitrate-matching-#1s-file-size
  25. # [00:16] <zcorpan> and various different images
  26. # [00:17] <zewt> (i have an ipad 3 in front of me, but without a decent test I don't feel like painstakingly typing that URL into it; chrome to ipad wanted)
  27. # [00:18] <zcorpan> maybe i can hack together a test. i'll see if i have interesting images. also, what is a good webp encoder and what is a good jpeg encoder these days?
  28. # [00:19] <zewt> (don't know; i stopped paying attention to webp since it didn't look like it was a serious attempt at a general-purpose jpeg replacement)
  29. # [00:20] <zewt> seemed (a couple years ago?) like it was hyperfocused on "a lossy image format for web pages" and not caring about replacing jpeg in general, and I don't think I want a world where we have two production lossy image formats and people need to make complex judgements to decide which to use
  30. # [00:21] <zcorpan> i thought webp was being improved. though i haven't followed it closely.
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  32. # [00:22] <zewt> it's not that it isn't being improved (no idea on that, really), but that it seemed they were happy to not support things that aren't directly relevant to web images
  33. # [00:22] <zcorpan> i wish more time was spent on improving jpeg encoders
  34. # [00:22] <zewt> for example, jpeg's max file size I believe is 64x64k, webp 16x16k
  35. # [00:23] <zewt> users shouldn't need criteria like "use webp! but if your file is very large, use jpeg instead!"
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  37. # [00:23] <zewt> (that's just the random thing I happened to recall off the top of my head, I think there were others but it's been too long)
  38. # [00:23] <zcorpan> right
  39. # [00:24] <zewt> cmyk might have been another
  40. # [00:24] <zewt> (i guess those are both print things, where you probably don't want jpeg either)
  41. # [00:25] <zcorpan> though 16x16k seems enough even for big images that have twice the resolution you want
  42. # [00:25] <zcorpan> for the web, i mean
  43. # [00:26] <zewt> for the web, sure (more than that will tend to choke browsers anyway)
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  45. # [00:47] <Hixie> gah
  46. # [00:48] <Hixie> anyone remember where i put those tests recently that checked <embed> behaviour when display:none / height:0 / etc?
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  54. # [00:55] <WeirdAl> Hixie: no idea, but on another note: how do you generate the multipage editions of the HTML5 spec from the source file?
  55. # [00:55] <WeirdAl> (see my question posted 45 minutes ago)
  56. # [00:58] <Hixie> it's a complicated set of scripts
  57. # [00:58] <Hixie> split across multiple machines
  58. # [00:58] <Hixie> why?
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  63. # [01:10] <zcorpan> i have an image that got absolutely ruined by quality 0 jpeg with gimp
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  70. # [01:21] <WeirdAl> Hixie - well, I'd like to be able to locally break that 6MB file up into chapters
  71. # [01:21] <WeirdAl> and I'd rather use official scripts than try to homebrew it
  72. # [01:22] <WeirdAl> Python would be really good at it, I'd think...
  73. # [01:23] <WeirdAl> if the scripts were checked in, that'd be good enough for me to work with (I think)
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  75. # [01:26] <WeirdAl> hmm, I'll have to file a bug on XHTML serialization - it doesn't specify what should happen with the XML prolog, if there ever was one
  76. # [01:26] <WeirdAl> when parsing the DOM, the <?xml ?> prolog is usually lost.
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  81. # [01:28] <Youdaman> g'day
  82. # [01:28] <Youdaman> divya: thank you for your informative video via MarakanaTechTV :)
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  95. # [02:00] <zcorpan> so from my testing, with the image i played around with, using quality 0, 10, 20, results in quite blocky artifacts which look horrible. however, quality 40 is OK and gives a better image zoomed in compared to smaller quality 90 image.
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  97. # [02:03] <zcorpan> so using a 2x image with 40 quality results in similar-filesize with better quality for retina (or zoomed in), while using 4x with 10 quality results in similar-filesize with horrible quality everywhere
  98. # [02:04] <zcorpan> (compared to 1x 90 quality)
  99. # [02:04] <zcorpan> (all 4:2:2 subsampling and unchecked most checkboxes in gimp's export jpeg)
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  102. # [02:06] <zcorpan> (using 4:2:0 subsampling seems to reduce file size but doesn't degrade quality noticeably)
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  119. # [02:38] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/dump/compressive/test.html
  120. # [02:38] <Hixie> hm, weirdal left
  121. # [02:39] <Hixie> size 25% isn't loading properly for me
  122. # [02:39] <Hixie> quality 10 is a disaster on the wall
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  125. # [02:41] <zcorpan> problems uploading...
  126. # [02:44] <zcorpan> sigh. i'll try again tomorrow.
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  153. # [04:09] <GPHemsley> apparently filesize equates to "weight" now?
  154. # [04:13] <GPHemsley> wait, so, WeirdAl doesn't want to reverse-engineer the scripts powering the spec that was written because people were always having to reverse-engineer how scripts were processed?
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  156. # [04:31] <SamB_MacG5> "complicated set of scripts split across multiple machines" sounds like a bad idea ...
  157. # [04:31] <SamB_MacG5> (though I guess that's also par for debian.org/debian.net ...)
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  209. # [08:22] <annevk> Hixie: I'm afraid of me bringing it up again later :p
  210. # [08:22] <annevk> (re WorkerUtils)
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  225. # [08:49] <divya> Youdaman: thanks you are welcome is that why you are here :)
  226. # [08:49] <divya> if so i am glad :)
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  228. # [08:53] <hsivonen> is there a backchannel for the plenary?
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  230. # [08:53] <annevk> #tpac-chat on W3C IRC
  231. # [08:54] <hsivonen> thanks
  232. # [08:54] <annevk> there's also #tpac-treehouse on Freenode, but more quiet
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  234. # [08:54] <Ms2ger> Anything happening?
  235. # [08:56] <hsivonen> Ms2ger; we should listen to analysts
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  237. # [09:00] <Youdaman> divya: yep that's why i'm here :)
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  240. # [09:03] <smaug____> hsivonen: and there is also #tpac
  241. # [09:03] <annevk> modular modular modular
  242. # [09:04] <annevk> because if you split a coherent doc in two, it's modular...
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  244. # [09:04] <hsivonen> #tpac is for minuting
  245. # [09:06] <annevk> teehee, I think I can merge parse and interpret soonish
  246. # [09:07] <divya> Youdaman: naice!
  247. # [09:07] <divya> any new memes yet?
  248. # [09:08] <divya> i see no source for memes tho.
  249. # [09:08] <hober> annevk divya: i guess we could make some kind of whaambulance meme
  250. # [09:08] <divya> ahah what does it mean hober
  251. # [09:09] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2012OctDec/0110.html
  252. # [09:09] <annevk> divya: ^^
  253. # [09:10] <divya> waaah
  254. # [09:10] <divya> naice
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  256. # [09:11] <divya> WHAAMBULANCE
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  267. # [09:34] <nessy> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT0ofNU1NzA
  268. # [09:34] <nessy> I actually had to look that one up ;-)
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  401. # [13:25] <smaug____> "Extended DRM"
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  404. # [13:25] <smaug____> must be something awesome :/
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  412. # [13:30] <annevk> uhuh
  413. # [13:30] <annevk> zcorpan: went okay I think, considering the TPAC
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  415. # [13:30] <annevk> the topic, lol
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  417. # [13:31] <zcorpan> cool
  418. # [13:31] <Ms2ger> The TuPAC?
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  440. # [14:06] <[tm]> wtf "ERROR Closing Link: 91.217.168.220 (Too many user connections (global))"
  441. # [14:07] <[tm]> from irc.freenode.net
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  449. # [14:18] <annevk> yeah someone should email the Freenode staff with our IP
  450. # [14:18] <annevk> to ask for an upgrade
  451. # [14:18] <annevk> had the same problem yesterday
  452. # [14:19] <[tm]> annevk: no way to get around it from the client side, right?
  453. # [14:19] <Ms2ger> ssh, I guess
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  457. # [14:21] <[tm]> Ms2ger: yeah that's what I'm doing here
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  462. # [14:24] <smaug____> drm is just pure evil
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  467. # [14:25] <tantek> not sure if drm is pure evil, or pure stupidity.
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  473. # [14:26] <hober> that or isn't an xor :)
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  495. # [14:41] <annevk> [tm]: no, we had the same problem at Opera, I emailed them telling them we're Opera and we like their service and would need upwards of 200 allowed connections
  496. # [14:41] <annevk> [tm]: that's about all it takes
  497. # [14:41] <gsnedders> Can you not just msg some online staff?
  498. # [14:42] <annevk> well I couldn't connect at the time :)
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  571. # [16:05] <GPHemsley> If anyone gets a chance in between arguments, feedback welcome on my latest commit to mimesniff.
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  579. # [16:11] <annevk> GPHemsley: hard to review :/
  580. # [16:11] <GPHemsley> yeah, the stupid differ b0rked
  581. # [16:11] <GPHemsley> marked sections as changed that hadn't been changed
  582. # [16:11] <GPHemsley> no idea why
  583. # [16:12] <annevk> a bunch of things like "a video type supported by the user agent" are not linked
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  585. # [16:12] <annevk> GPHemsley: whitespace?
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  587. # [16:12] <GPHemsley> the majority of the changes are in the "Unknown media type" section
  588. # [16:13] * lilmonkey` is now known as lilmonkey
  589. # [16:13] <GPHemsley> which I completely rewrote
  590. # [16:13] <GPHemsley> those unlinked terms were like that before this change
  591. # [16:13] <GPHemsley> I haven't defined them yet
  592. # [16:13] <annevk> k
  593. # [16:13] <GPHemsley> all of 5.2 needs review
  594. # [16:14] <annevk> in general I guess the cleanup looks good, but it might take a while before you find someone to review that
  595. # [16:14] <annevk> maybe once people write tests for it
  596. # [16:14] <GPHemsley> a few definitions were added in 3
  597. # [16:14] <GPHemsley> yeah
  598. # [16:14] <GPHemsley> incidentally, where would those tests live?
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  601. # [16:16] <annevk> Hixie: looks like we need quirks.spec.whatwg.org
  602. # [16:16] <annevk> Hixie: ownership -> annevankesteren again
  603. # [16:17] <GPHemsley> abarth: Do you recall if the order of the list of type patterns is significant in mimesniff?
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  605. # [16:17] <GPHemsley> abarth: (There doesn't appear to be much overlap between the patterns that could result in a precedence conflict, IMO.)
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  700. # [17:49] <abarth> GPHemsley: I think the order is mostly not important
  701. # [17:49] <GPHemsley> ah, good
  702. # [17:49] <abarth> GPHemsley: That's something you should check before changing, however
  703. # [17:49] <GPHemsley> ah, not so good
  704. # [17:49] <GPHemsley> :P
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  754. # [19:04] <annevk> Hixie: I also want notifications or notification
  755. # [19:05] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|lunch
  756. # [19:05] <annevk> Hixie: given that we have "Fullscreen" I think "Notification" makes sense
  757. # [19:08] * annevk is looking forward to next week
  758. # [19:08] * annevk wants to solve host names
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  762. # [19:23] <Hixie> annevk: "fullscreens" wouldn't make sense, would it?
  763. # [19:24] <Hixie> "notifications" seems more correct to me, but i dunno, your call
  764. # [19:24] <annevk> okay
  765. # [19:24] <Hixie> notifications. and quirks. ?
  766. # [19:24] <annevk> for now, yes
  767. # [19:24] <annevk> tantek wants to add some stuff, but he's not yet ready I think
  768. # [19:24] <annevk> thanks
  769. # [19:25] <annevk> gonna go back to the reception thingie now
  770. # [19:25] <Hixie> is zcorpan giving up on quirks?
  771. # [19:25] <annevk> no, W3C gave up on him by not allowing CC0, so he wants to move it here
  772. # [19:25] <Hixie> aah, ok
  773. # [19:25] <annevk> but he wants to reuse my setup for github
  774. # [19:25] <Hixie> so your user?
  775. # [19:25] <annevk> yes
  776. # [19:25] <Hixie> roger
  777. # [19:26] * Parts: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com)
  778. # [19:26] <Hixie> (when was quirks ever a w3c spec?)
  779. # [19:27] <Hixie> both done
  780. # [19:27] <Hixie> let me know when to update the specs list
  781. # [19:29] <Hixie> oh, i see, they just don't want people to do drafts under a non-CLA license
  782. # [19:29] <Hixie> ok
  783. # [19:30] <Hixie> well that's a non-issue, we only need the FSA from the w3c
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  797. # [20:09] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Thanks for all the bugs! :P
  798. # [20:09] <GPHemsley> Hixie: A few of them are just wording issues, so I'll need your help figuring out how to say what I mean.
  799. # [20:10] <Hixie> sure
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  808. # [20:31] <Hixie> MikeSmith: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18338#c2 (please feel free to close the bug or reassign it if you think it shouldn't be in html after all)
  809. # [20:31] * MikeSmith looks now
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  811. # [20:32] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I guess I've been waiting to hear what hsivonen thinks of that one
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  813. # [20:33] <MikeSmith> I vaguely recall him saying that he thinks it'd good to have the HTML spec say something about this
  814. # [20:33] <MikeSmith> anyway I'll ask him
  815. # [20:33] <MikeSmith> gotta drop off soon
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  821. # [20:41] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Wasn't sure if you wanted me to move the components for the bugs assigned to do; I didn't.
  822. # [20:42] <GPHemsley> Hixie: I've responded to all the bugs you filed.
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  824. # [20:43] <Hixie> k
  825. # [20:43] <GPHemsley> Hixie: P.S. Don't forget MIMESNIFF is also referenced here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/iana.html
  826. # [20:43] <GPHemsley> (Not sure if you need to update that, except maybe the name of the spec.)
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  829. # [20:54] <Hixie> that section is not long for this world
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  843. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> Hixie, do you mind us being crazy? :)
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  846. # [21:32] * GPHemsley proposes having a media type 'font'.
  847. # [21:33] <GPHemsley> (Also 'archive')
  848. # [21:33] <GPHemsley> font/ttf
  849. # [21:33] <GPHemsley> archive/zip
  850. # [21:33] <GPHemsley> etc.
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  852. # [21:34] <Ms2ger> Heh
  853. # [21:38] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: Unrealistic?
  854. # [21:38] * GPHemsley thinks too much gets lumped into 'application'
  855. # [21:38] <Ms2ger> I've seen people talk about font/ for years :)
  856. # [21:41] <GPHemsley> ah
  857. # [21:41] <GPHemsley> well
  858. # [21:41] <GPHemsley> hmm
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  860. # [21:41] <GPHemsley> If I spec it, they will come?
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  862. # [21:42] <GPHemsley> "A font type is any valid media type where type is equal to "font" or the media type portion is equal to one of the following: ..."
  863. # [21:43] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger, Hixie: What do you think?
  864. # [21:43] <Ms2ger> I care very little :)
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  866. # [21:44] * GPHemsley assumes that is support.
  867. # [21:44] <GPHemsley> ;)
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  895. # [22:57] <Hixie> GPHemsley: i agree, if we assume mime types make sense at all, that there should be a font/ top-level type, but i'm not sure the mime sniffing spec is where it should be. But then if you want to replace the IANA MIME type registry and all the MIME machinery, it would make sense to have a new spec that subsumes mime sniffing and all those things.
  896. # [22:58] <Hixie> GPHemsley: might want to approach the IETF first to see if they're amenable to considering that first, though
  897. # [22:58] <Hixie> GPHemsley: also, might be worth getting the mime sniffing stuff solid first :-P
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  902. # [23:30] <hsivonen> epub has prior art for font types.
  903. # [23:31] <hsivonen> application/vnd.ms-opentype and application/font-woff
  904. # [23:31] <hsivonen> better not reinvent that stuff
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  906. # [23:36] <hsivonen> I don't know where the idpf pulled those out of, but this stuff has been made up already
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The end :)