/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-11-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Nov 10 10:31:36 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [10:31] * Now talking in #whatwg
  4. # [10:31] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  10. # [10:48] <annevk> SVG path syntax is simpler than I thought
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  17. # [11:01] <annevk> and now Fullscreen API has a better logo http://fullscreen.spec.whatwg.org/
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  19. # [11:09] <SimonSapin> annevk: is there a unicode combining character for this? ;)
  20. # [11:09] <annevk> heh, I doubt it
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  29. # [11:27] <annevk> http://url.spec.whatwg.org/ has one too now
  30. # [11:27] <SimonSapin> nice
  31. # [11:27] <annevk> if anyone has ideas for the others, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19795
  32. # [11:28] <annevk> dom / xhr / notifications / fetch (CORS) are still lacking
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  34. # [11:29] <SimonSapin> annevk: how about ↓ for fetch?
  35. # [11:29] <annevk> sweet :)
  36. # [11:30] <annevk> now how to create a good path for that one...
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  49. # [11:50] <annevk> SimonSapin: http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/
  50. # [11:52] <annevk> oh yes
  51. # [11:52] <annevk> Notifications API can be a "!"
  52. # [12:00] <annevk> http://notifications.spec.whatwg.org/
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  63. # [12:45] <karlcow> sniffing hmm could be 👃 or 💩 if emoji were more common
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  65. # [12:46] <Velmont> I only see the encoding standard icon for both of those, karlcow :P
  66. # [12:47] <karlcow> yes it's why I said if emojis were more common.
  67. # [12:48] <Velmont> But most of the icons are pictures anyways(?), so it can work I guess.
  68. # [12:50] <karlcow> (⸪)
  69. # [12:52] <karlcow> ⌘ ← place of interest sign (found often in Norway)
  70. # [12:52] <karlcow> which could be a bit like parsing.
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  79. # [13:27] <annevk> SVG path syntax is interesting, but it's kinda annoying there's no processing model
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  81. # [13:28] <annevk> E.g. you can omit the final "z" in implementations, but whether that's conforming does not seem to be defined in http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/paths.html
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  93. # [13:59] <annevk> Hixie: in "If image is an ImageData object" you don't have the explicit "return" step, although I'm not sure that step is at all necessary in all cases
  94. # [14:00] <annevk> Hixie: also again, I really think we should have a better solution than putting this on the global object
  95. # [14:02] <annevk> Hixie: I thought we decided static methods was the way forward when we added createObjectURL; seems kinda weird for you to then introduce new factory methods
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  133. # [16:20] <GPHemsley> maybe a question mark in a file-like square?
  134. # [16:23] <annevk> for MIME Sniffing that might make sense
  135. # [16:23] <annevk> maybe for MIME in general too if we eventually tackle that whole subject
  136. # [16:23] <annevk> it's about resource labels after all
  137. # [16:24] <annevk> IDNA notes: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/URL#IDNA
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  139. # [16:26] <GPHemsley> annevk: BTW, why did you make me read that whole post about colons?
  140. # [16:26] <annevk> for the memes
  141. # [16:27] <annevk> how do I use the obsolete template on the wiki?
  142. # [16:27] <GPHemsley> {{obsolete|spec=<link to spec>|see=<link to related document>}}
  143. # [16:27] <GPHemsley> all parameters optional
  144. # [16:28] <GPHemsley> Perhaps I should write that down on the wiki
  145. # [16:29] <annevk> nah it's k
  146. # [16:29] <GPHemsley> annevk: Do you have a list of things that would go into "MIME in general"?
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  148. # [16:30] <annevk> I guess mainly parsing a MIME type
  149. # [16:30] <annevk> not sure what else is there really, would have to take a look at those unmaintained RFCs
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  151. # [16:34] <annevk> oh also, not sure everyone agrees with me that's a good plan
  152. # [16:36] <GPHemsley> annevk: BTW, if you find that the spec and see parameters aren't enough, let me know.
  153. # [16:36] <GPHemsley> annevk: Given how vilified MIME types seem to be, I don't know if it's necessary.
  154. # [16:36] <annevk> vilified?
  155. # [16:37] <GPHemsley> IDK, people seem to not like them.
  156. # [16:37] <GPHemsley> Or maybe that's just you.
  157. # [16:37] <GPHemsley> ;)
  158. # [16:39] <annevk> well, they're there, and are used in a number of our formats, and we should define how those work
  159. # [16:40] <annevk> e.g. <Script type="TEXT/javascript;bogus=tralal;™=test">
  160. # [16:40] <annevk> what does that mean?
  161. # [16:40] <annevk> the wiki should have a category for pages such as http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/SVG_and_canvas
  162. # [16:40] <gsnedders> annevk: That's surely a quite simple case?
  163. # [16:41] <annevk> gsnedders: browsers were not interoperable on stuff like that, might still not be
  164. # [16:42] <gsnedders> I think the varience was in how unknown parameters were handled, not the parsing of them
  165. # [16:48] <annevk> gsnedders: well e.g. ™ does not match the production in the MIME RFCs, should it not apply?
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  167. # [16:48] <annevk> I think they're very much related
  168. # [16:51] <GPHemsley> it could arguably nullify the entire value, then, no?
  169. # [16:52] <GPHemsley> bad parameter = no valid MIME type
  170. # [16:52] <annevk> sure, but I doubt that's what happens in practice
  171. # [16:52] <annevk> there's similar things
  172. # [16:53] <annevk> e.g. "Content-Type: text/html;" is invalid
  173. # [16:53] <annevk> but works perfectly fine
  174. # [16:53] <annevk> MIME RFCs don't tell you that
  175. # [16:53] <GPHemsley> ah
  176. # [16:53] <annevk> it's been a while since I looked into this, but there's a lot of little gotchas like that
  177. # [16:54] <GPHemsley> annevk: BTW, if something is "in the spec now", it'd be useful to link to what spec and where :)
  178. # [16:54] <annevk> maybe next time :)
  179. # [16:54] <annevk> it's all HTML I think
  180. # [16:58] <GPHemsley> also, for the future (not sure if people still do this): only use level-2 headers and below; level-1 headers are reserved for the page title
  181. # [16:58] <GPHemsley> (it seems to be common on some of the old pages)
  182. # [17:04] <hsivonen> researched the history of polyglot and was reminded that Sam gaa been pushing this stuff since 2006
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  201. # [17:37] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so it's been 6 years and you're still just not getting it
  202. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> obstinacy in the face of plain reason
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  205. # [17:56] <annevk> http://whitepeoplemourningromney.tumblr.com/ :)
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  211. # [18:12] <matjas> annevk: well I’ve been filing most of the new stuff in the JS spec as ECMAScript bugs, and the editor seems to listen to my arguments
  212. # [18:13] <matjas> annevk: the latest ES6 draft already include some of the changes, which is kinda cool
  213. # [18:13] <matjas> annevk: but i haven’t really asked on es-discuss
  214. # [18:13] * matjas adds to TODO list
  215. # [18:13] * Joins: WeirdAl (~chatzilla@2602:306:cf5b:a5b0:217:f2ff:fe50:2dd1)
  216. # [18:13] <matjas> annevk: also, javascript.spec.whatwg.org + github repository sounds cool. where do i sign up?
  217. # [18:15] <WeirdAl> Hi, folks - are there any semi-standard API's on how to format whitespace inside a DOMDocument as we're serializing, when whitespace is insignificant? I'm thinking I'd like to serialize the document, but preserve the general formatting so svn blame and hg blame show only the relevant changes.
  218. # [18:16] <WeirdAl> s/blame/diff/
  219. # [18:23] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.105.178.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
  220. # [18:26] <WeirdAl> (I have to leave for a bit, but I'll be back in probably about an hour - I'll check IRC logs to see if there's an answer. Worst case, I try to write my own.)
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  233. # [19:04] <annevk> WeirdAl: http://domparsing.spec.whatwg.org/ ?
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  236. # [19:06] <annevk> matjas: I added you to whatwg on GitHub, feel free to create a repo
  237. # [19:06] <annevk> matjas: we'll have to wait for Hixie to set up a domain then I can set up syncing between the repo and the domain
  238. # [19:07] <annevk> gotta go
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  241. # [19:15] * Dantman is now known as namtnad
  242. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> paul_irish, Selection.toString() is a complete mess. There's like zero interop on any nontrivial case. WebKit has some algorithm that depends on the internal representation of text it uses for layout after CSS has been applied, as I understand it. I think Gecko uses a basically DOM-based view of things with hacks to account for display: none. Other browsers are in between. I tried writing a spec once, but it was far too much of a headach
  243. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> e and it didn't look like browsers wanted to converge.
  244. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> The basic problem is: a purely DOM-based view is thoroughly inadequate because it doesn't match user expectations at all. So you have to figure in CSS somehow if you want to be at all sane. But then there are massive numbers of details you could choose to account for, or not.
  245. # [19:22] <paul_irish> :(
  246. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> CSS is 2D, and you have to serialize it.
  247. # [19:22] <paul_irish> Yeah.
  248. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> You can't do anything sensible with, e.g., non-static positioning.
  249. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> Or flats.
  250. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> floats.
  251. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> I believe Gecko doesn't look at CSS at all except for display: none -- e.g., <p style="display:inline">foo</p>bar will still serialize as "foo\nbar" or such, not "foobar" as in some other browsers.
  252. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> This is the abortive spec I wrote: http://aryeh.name/spec/innertext/innertext.html
  253. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> (in the context of innerText, but it's the same idea)
  254. # [19:24] <AryehGregor> That was one of the first specs I wrote.
  255. # [19:24] <AryehGregor> (note date)
  256. # [19:28] <cgcardona> "introduced by Microsoft in Internet Explorer sometime in the mists of history"
  257. # [19:28] <cgcardona> nice
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  260. # [19:38] <Hixie> what domain am i setting up?
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  263. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> Hixie, polyglot.s.w.o
  264. # [19:43] * Ms2ger runs
  265. # [19:43] <Hixie> o_O
  266. # [19:44] <Ms2ger> Hixie, javascript., actually
  267. # [19:44] <Hixie> matjas: we're taking over from ECMA now? :-P
  268. # [19:46] * Quits: baku (~baku@204.153.192.4) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  269. # [19:47] <MikeSmith> it's an "extension spec"
  270. # [19:47] <Hixie> what does it extend?
  271. # [19:47] <MikeSmith> the EcmaScript spec
  272. # [19:47] <Hixie> does it exist yet? i'm very confused
  273. # [19:47] <MikeSmith> it exists
  274. # [19:47] <Hixie> url?
  275. # [19:48] <MikeSmith> http://mathias.html5.org/specs/javascript/
  276. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> http://mathias.html5.org/specs/javascript/
  277. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> Damn you, MikeSmith!
  278. # [19:48] <MikeSmith> heh
  279. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> Shouldn't the sake slow you down? :(
  280. # [19:48] <MikeSmith> I'm drinking pink lemonade tonight
  281. # [19:48] * Ms2ger raises an eyebrow
  282. # [19:49] <Hixie> dudes that spec is the awesome
  283. # [19:49] <Hixie> matjas++
  284. # [19:49] <MikeSmith> さすがmatjas
  285. # [19:50] <Hixie> ok created subdomain
  286. # [19:50] <SimonSapin> About http://mathias.html5.org/specs/javascript/ , are greater and smaller implicitly "strict" in english? (ie: not greater or equal)
  287. # [19:50] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@114.160.9.254) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  288. # [19:51] <Hixie> the captcha i got was "selffula surrounds" which sounds like one of those phrases evil forces make their minions repeat to each other to spread their mythos
  289. # [19:51] <Ms2ger> Alright
  290. # [19:51] <Ms2ger> selffula surrounds
  291. # [19:51] <Hixie> selffula is coming!
  292. # [19:51] <Hixie> selffula surrounds!
  293. # [19:52] * Hixie prostrates himself
  294. # [19:52] <Ms2ger> Get back to work, Great Master
  295. # [19:53] <Hixie> selffula is the great master! selffula surrounds!
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  300. # [19:55] <cgcardona> interesting
  301. # [19:55] <AryehGregor> SimonSapin, that's the accepted convention outside of advanced math, in my experience.
  302. # [19:56] <AryehGregor> If you're a math major or grad student, at least in pure math, people often are sloppy about the difference between strict and loose inequality because it's often not important and it's extra info to track when doing a proof.
  303. # [19:57] * Joins: WeirdAl (~chatzilla@216.55.31.130)
  304. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> (in particular because certain operations switch between strict and loose inequality and it can be annoying to keep track of them, and it makes no difference if your result doesn't care about sets of zero measure or whatever)
  305. # [19:57] <SimonSapin> AryehGregor: it’s ambiguous in French if you don’t specify otherwise
  306. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
  307. # [19:57] <Hixie> vraiment?
  308. # [19:57] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@p15181-obmd01.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  309. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> I think in the context of the spec, it's unambiguous.
  310. # [19:57] <SimonSapin> At least that’s what I was taught in school. Many people don’t really care
  311. # [19:58] <WeirdAl> annevk: that was the first place I looked.
  312. # [19:58] <Hixie> what's the ambiguous phraseology?
  313. # [19:58] <SimonSapin> English might be different from French of course, it is for "positive".
  314. # [19:58] <SimonSapin> Hixie: greater than, smaller than
  315. # [19:58] <Hixie> i meanin french
  316. # [19:58] <SimonSapin> supérieur à, inférieur à
  317. # [19:59] <SimonSapin> C’est plus précis de dire : strictement supérieur à, supérieur ou égal à
  318. # [19:59] <Hixie> i wouldn't say that's ambiguous
  319. # [19:59] * WeirdAl is thankful for the French 1A class he took this past summer :)
  320. # [19:59] <SimonSapin> people use it to mean either
  321. # [20:00] <Ms2ger> Hixie, yeah, but you speak French like a 10 years old boy :)
  322. # [20:00] <Hixie> in particular, neither http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/sup%C3%A9rieur nor http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sup%C3%A9rieur suggest it's ambiguous
  323. # [20:00] <SimonSapin> … but of course it doesn’t matter to define min and max
  324. # [20:01] <Hixie> "greater than" seems equally unambiguous to me. 3 is obviously not greater than 3
  325. # [20:02] <Hixie> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_des_symboles_math%C3%A9matiques seems to consider the term unambiguous too, though they do use the more verbose "strictement" in some cases
  326. # [20:04] <Hixie> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nombre_positif does agree though
  327. # [20:04] <Hixie> interesting
  328. # [20:04] <Hixie> weird
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  330. # [20:05] <SimonSapin> My guess is that it *should* unambiguously mean "strictement supérieur", but sometimes people get sloppy and use the short form when they mean "supérieur ou égal". So in practice in can be ambiguous, so you sometimes use "strictement" to disambiguate.
  331. # [20:06] <Hixie> yeah, i guess so
  332. # [20:06] <Hixie> weird
  333. # [20:06] <Hixie> none of the dictionaries i found say it's ambiguous
  334. # [20:07] <Hixie> the only example of it being ambiguous i found was that "positive numbers" page and it disambiguated in parentheses which makes me skeptical that the usage is really correct in the firstplace
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  336. # [20:08] <SimonSapin> In French schools we’re often advised to use "strictement …" or "… ou égal", especially in math class
  337. # [20:09] <SimonSapin> anyway, the good news is that both possibility gives the same definition of max(a, b) and min(a, b)
  338. # [20:09] <Hixie> assuming that if values a and b are equal they're also identical
  339. # [20:10] <Hixie> which isn't a given depending on what the values are
  340. # [20:11] <SimonSapin> http://mathias.html5.org/specs/javascript/ defines min() and max() for use in the document but I don’t see it used at all
  341. # [20:12] <SimonSapin> same for ToInteger()
  342. # [20:12] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  343. # [20:13] <SimonSapin> where should I send feedback?
  344. # [20:14] <Hixie> MikeSmith: is there a bug component for this spec?
  345. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> no
  346. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> I'll make one now
  347. # [20:14] <Hixie> assuming matjas wants one
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  350. # [20:19] <GPHemsley> I just discovered there's a file format where multiple sources claim its mimetype as either chemical/cif or chemical/x-cif
  351. # [20:19] <GPHemsley> (as if it's the subtype that's the problem)
  352. # [20:21] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@169.204.229.70)
  353. # [20:21] <SimonSapin> twitter shall be the bug tracker until then
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  356. # [20:24] <WeirdAl> uh, that JS spec sounds like a Bad Idea - not something that is really a spec, but simply documentation of historical practices of browsers
  357. # [20:25] <WeirdAl> the defineGetter function and its friends have been obsoleted by ES5's Object.defineProperty
  358. # [20:26] <WeirdAl> and Object.getOwnProperty
  359. # [20:26] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, those functions are defined in ES proper
  360. # [20:27] <WeirdAl> Ms2ger: are you talking to me instead of SimonSapin? :)
  361. # [20:27] <Ms2ger> WeirdAl, you mean "a spec for features a browser is required to implement to be able to browse the web as it actually exists"?
  362. # [20:27] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: these are not JS functions but functions for the algorithms in the document: http://mathias.html5.org/specs/javascript/#abstract-operations
  363. # [20:27] <Ms2ger> WeirdAl, no, he said something about ToInteger() not being defined
  364. # [20:28] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, exactly
  365. # [20:28] <SimonSapin> defined but not used
  366. # [20:28] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, they are used in and defined by the ES spec
  367. # [20:28] <WeirdAl> Ms2ger: some of these problems, I'm saying, the new ES specs already handle
  368. # [20:28] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: is there a need to repeat them in this spec?
  369. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> WeirdAl, I don't think you get what I'm saying
  370. # [20:29] <gsnedders> WeirdAl: Yes, there are ways to achieve that in ES5. But any browser that wishes to be compatible with the web must support the older, non-standard means.
  371. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> WeirdAl, the existence of Object.defineProperty doesn't magically make pages that use __defineGetter__ disappear
  372. # [20:30] <WeirdAl> must we be compatible with <blink> and <marquee>? :)
  373. # [20:30] <WeirdAl> (I know, I'm trolling with a line like that)
  374. # [20:30] <Ms2ger> Yeah, we must
  375. # [20:31] <Ms2ger> marquee in particular is required to render a lot of East-Asian sites correctly
  376. # [20:31] * gsnedders wonders what effect IE9 has had on __define{G,S}etter__
  377. # [20:31] <WeirdAl> hm, I should pick my fights more carefully, based on what I actually care about :p
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  380. # [20:33] <Hixie> WeirdAl: the html spec defines <blink> (that's trivial) and <marquee> (in great depth, there's a whole section devoted to it)
  381. # [20:33] <Hixie> WeirdAl: so... yes
  382. # [20:33] <Hixie> (blink is just one line of CSS)
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  385. # [20:34] <Hixie> WeirdAl: of course, i'm pretty sure we'd all be happier if ES did just spec all this stuff for us :-)
  386. # [20:34] <SimonSapin> Hixie: CSS makes conforming to just ignore 'text-decoration: blink'
  387. # [20:34] <Hixie> SimonSapin: indeed
  388. # [20:35] <Hixie> SimonSapin: that's why <blink> doesn't blink in all browsers
  389. # [20:35] * Quits: Daman (~kawaie@unaffiliated/daman) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  390. # [20:35] <Hixie> well, at least, that's the formal reason why it's ok that it doesn't blink in all browsers
  391. # [20:35] <SimonSapin> I guess that’s fine
  392. # [20:35] <SimonSapin> but I can imagine how not supporting <marquee> would break stuff
  393. # [20:39] * WeirdAl wonders idly where the whatwgmemes website is
  394. # [20:39] <Hixie> you mean separate from http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/ ?
  395. # [20:39] <Hixie> cos that's what we use :-)
  396. # [20:39] <WeirdAl> yeah :p
  397. # [20:40] <WeirdAl> I need moar funny
  398. # [20:41] <Ms2ger> Sorry, we don't do crazy in here ;)
  399. # [20:41] <Hixie> o_O
  400. # [20:42] <WeirdAl> gotta go - my flight's boarding
  401. # [20:42] <Ms2ger> ttyl
  402. # [20:43] * Quits: WeirdAl (~chatzilla@216.55.31.130) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 16.0.2/20121024073032])
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  404. # [20:47] * gsnedders would still like Web ECMAScript to define most of it in ES code.
  405. # [20:48] <gsnedders> Obviously parts can't be, but all the librar yparts can.
  406. # [20:48] * Ms2ger wonders what Hixie is working on at the moment
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  408. # [20:51] <Hixie> canvas in workers
  409. # [20:53] <Ms2ger> Oh, right
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  411. # [20:59] <Hixie> do i still need to have spec prose to handle the opera-2d context?
  412. # [20:59] <Hixie> or can i change the spec so that it assumes that each canvas can only ever have one context at a time?
  413. # [21:01] <Hixie> i'm thinking i'm going to throw opera-2d under the bus
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  416. # [21:06] <Ms2ger> sgtm
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  441. # [23:37] * Joins: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@p11018-ipngnfx01takamatu.kagawa.ocn.ne.jp)
  442. # [23:54] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@109.133.12.158)
  443. # [23:59] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  444. # Session Close: Sun Nov 11 00:00:00 2012

The end :)