/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-11-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Nov 12 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <annevk> SimonSapin: Safari and Opera both do a lookup for that if you type in http://�.spec.whatwg.org even
  4. # [00:03] <SimonSapin> annevk: firefox gives an error page, chromium does a search of http:// .spec.whatwg.org/ (with a space)
  5. # [00:04] <annevk> SimonSapin: the error page Firefox gives suggests a DNS lookup took place
  6. # [00:04] <SimonSapin> Epiphany (WebKit-GTK) gives an error saying http://%20.spec.whatwg.org/
  7. # [00:05] <annevk> oh sweet, works in Safari's address bar, but not through <a>
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  9. # [00:06] <annevk> browsers are silly
  10. # [00:06] <annevk> Film at 11; bedtime here
  11. # [00:06] <SimonSapin> wireshark shows no sign of a DNS request from firefox
  12. # [00:07] <annevk> SimonSapin: hmm, "Firefox can't find the server at �.spec.whatwg.org." is kinda misleading then
  13. # [00:07] <SimonSapin> it is
  14. # [00:08] <annevk> SimonSapin: Firefox prolly uses system DNS so if it was already cached there you might not see another DNS request, fwiw
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  17. # [00:10] <SimonSapin> yeah, I tried ��.spec.whatwg.org and a�.spec.whatwg.org
  18. # [00:12] <annevk> interesting
  19. # [00:15] <annevk> nn
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  35. # [01:46] <Yuhong> <annevk> apparently http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6648 was not read
  36. # [01:46] <Yuhong> X-XSS-Protection dates back to IE8.
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  38. # [01:51] <Yuhong> <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1905
  39. # [01:51] <Yuhong> <Hixie> (also, anyone with IE around? what does IE put in the log for that test?)
  40. # [01:51] <Yuhong> In IE9 mode: false, true
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  42. # [01:52] <Yuhong> IE9 in IE8 mode: true
  43. # [01:52] <Yuhong> IE9 in IE7 mode: true
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  140. # [07:53] <hsivonen> the attempts to spin the claim that polyglot leads to better structure and quality into something non-bogus are embarrassing. this really is a déjà vu all over again.
  141. # [07:54] <Hixie> any idea what the real reason people want it is yet? just misguided, or is there some ulterior reason?
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  143. # [07:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think the reason TimBL/TAG wanted it was that they were distressed about XML toolchains getting cast aside and didn’t realize there were better solutions to the problem than getting everyone to produce polyglot markup
  144. # [07:57] <hsivonen> (dunno what’s TimBL’s current thinking after the HTML—XML Task Force report)
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  146. # [07:58] <hsivonen> as for why Sam wants it, Sam’s intentions are always mysterious
  147. # [07:59] <hsivonen> I also can’t tell why Leif wants it
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  149. # [07:59] <hsivonen> polyglot does have certain party trick hack value which makes it appealing
  150. # [07:59] <matjas> jgraham: re: http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Web_ECMAScript&diff=3938&oldid=3798 could you chime in here please? https://github.com/whatwg/javascript/issues/1
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  152. # [08:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: FWIW, looking at the old archives, the TAG didn’t develop its wish for polyglot on its own. Someone told them about Sam using polyglot markup on his blog.
  153. # [08:01] <MikeSmith> interesting
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  155. # [08:02] <hsivonen> the email that started it all: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-November/008035.html
  156. # [08:02] <hsivonen> aka. “the white pebble”
  157. # [08:02] <hsivonen> see http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2006/12/01/The-White-Pebble
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  159. # [08:14] <hsivonen> fun fact: the first occurrence of the word “polyglot” on public-html is in an email where Hixie calls it a ridiculous idea: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0301.html
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  161. # [08:16] <hsivonen> the first mention on www-tag is in an email written by me. oops.
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  165. # [08:18] <hsivonen> who coined the term polyglot? did Hixie do so in passing in the above email or was the term already used on IRC or blogs?
  166. # [08:19] <hsivonen> first mention on the whatwg list seems to be http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-August/021725.html
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  170. # [08:27] <hsivonen> So TAG’s request for the HTML WG to create the polyglot spec emerged from a TAG meeting that Sam attended (or called into?)
  171. # [08:28] <hsivonen> are TAG f2f meetings minuted?
  172. # [08:29] <hsivonen> ah. here http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Apr/0060.html
  173. # [08:29] <hsivonen> oh. MikeSmith was there, too.
  174. # [08:29] <SimonSapin> what wrong with polyglot? pointlessly taking editing resources?
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  176. # [08:33] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: pointlessly taking the resources of Web authors (if they are made believe they should do polyglot) or software developers (if authors who’ve been made believe they want polyglot demand polyglot features)
  177. # [08:33] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: also taking review resources at the WG
  178. # [08:37] <zcorpan> do we have a canned response in the form of a whatwg wiki page to why appendix c/polyglot is a bad idea?
  179. # [08:39] <hsivonen> unfortunately, it looks like my 386 limit is going to be exceeded at some point and I will end up writing a canned response
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  185. # [08:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I just learned that you saved HTML5 from having an Appendix C in the sense of having the polyglot stuff be an actual appendix.
  186. # [08:50] <hsivonen> (from reading TAG minutes)
  187. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> oh
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  189. # [08:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: no recollection?
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  191. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> yeah vaguely
  192. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> f2f meeting in Boston?
  193. # [08:52] <hsivonen> yeah
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  197. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> the main thing I can remember for those discussions is that I didn't think that document had much chance of actually being written
  198. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> because there was lots of talk about what a great idea it would be if somebody would write it
  199. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> but as usual nobody showing any sign of actually planning to do that
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  203. # [09:04] <hsivonen> gotta love how TimBL’s requirements didn’t get minuted: “TBL: my requirement is [everybody talks at once]”
  204. # [09:04] * Quits: cgcardona (~cgcardona@unaffiliated/cgcardona) (Quit: cgcardona)
  205. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> which minutes?
  206. # [09:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the same as above
  207. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> oh god
  208. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> I think I tried to block some of this out of my memory
  209. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> was just reading the decentralized extensibility part
  210. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> I remember being back home after that meeting -- either that one or an earlier one -- and I was speaking at a meeting of the W3C Japan members
  211. # [09:11] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.105.178.getinternet.no)
  212. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> and someone asked me about use of namespaces in text/html
  213. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> and I said, We'll never have namespaces in text/html
  214. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> but I forgot that Henry Thompson was in the room
  215. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> he was visiting at the time for something
  216. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> and he spoke up right away to say that No, there is still ongoing discussion about that
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  218. # [09:14] <Hixie> hsivonen: the term polyglot is just the term used for any file that is in multiple languages at once
  219. # [09:14] <zcorpan> annevk: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1909
  220. # [09:15] <Hixie> hsivonen: btw, it taking the htmlwg's time up isn't a big deal if the people whose time we care about aren't in htmlwg
  221. # [09:15] <zcorpan> annevk: btw, don't we want the white background in the logo?
  222. # [09:15] * Hixie gives hsivonen a look :-P
  223. # [09:16] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  224. # [09:16] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: regarding the HTML parser bugs you mentioned the other day, http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1910 WFM in Firefox
  225. # [09:17] <Hixie> nn
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  227. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> it can take time up when people start (re)lobbying to have polyglot-checking supporte added to the validator -- their logic being, there's a spec for it, so we should therefore provide some support for it
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  229. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, I noticed that too
  230. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> that's why I didn't file a bug for it
  231. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> I think they were testing with code from February
  232. # [09:18] <zcorpan> so polyglot could instead be Guidelines for Spec Writers Using Anolis With Libxml2 Instead Of Html5lib
  233. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> heh
  234. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> yeah
  235. # [09:19] <zcorpan> 1. If you're Hixie, don't omit </td> tags
  236. # [09:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yes
  237. # [09:19] <annevk> zcorpan: heh nice
  238. # [09:19] <zcorpan> 2. Your spec is small enough to not take ages to generate, use html5lib instead.
  239. # [09:19] <annevk> zcorpan: feel free to commit and update the twitter account (that's all that's needed)
  240. # [09:20] <hsivonen> just when I thought I could finally get to making a libxml2-compatible version of the V.nu parser, I get this Rust thing on my plate
  241. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: in that paper they found that WebKit has the same bug, but when I tested in WebKit I couldn't reproduce it there either. So I guess you must have fixed it between February and now, and also it was fixed in WebKit too
  242. # [09:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I can’t recall fixing anything of that nature in February
  243. # [09:21] <hsivonen> or since February
  244. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> hmm ok
  245. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> weird then
  246. # [09:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you recall why you have foreign-namespace stuff on the "special" list of the parsing algorithm?
  247. # [09:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: when can an "is special?" check end up being performed on an SVG or MathML stack node?
  248. # [09:22] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  249. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> I vote for you work on the libxml2-compatible v.nu parser before the Rust one
  250. # [09:24] <annevk> zcorpan: as for the white background, dunno, maybe that should be added back? seems kinda nice if the logo just works on photos and such, but that's largely theoretical :)
  251. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> btw it's possible to plug a different parser into libxml2?
  252. # [09:24] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: not that I know of
  253. # [09:24] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I was thinking of having a new entry point for parsing but returning a libxml2 tree
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  255. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> ah OK
  256. # [09:25] <hsivonen> So my isScoping() and isSpecial() checks assume it’s impossible for those questions to be posed about foreign nodes
  257. # [09:25] <hsivonen> great optimization or horrible bug?
  258. # [09:27] <zcorpan> annevk: the original has the white background. i guess me being used to it makes me think it looks better with the white.
  259. # [09:27] <zcorpan> annevk: maybe i should ask divya, she likes bikesheds i heard
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  261. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> wtf why does live dom viewer add a <style type="text/css"></style> node in that example?
  262. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> I never noticed it doing that before
  263. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ↑
  264. # [09:29] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what example? I see no style with 1910
  265. # [09:29] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.105.178.getinternet.no) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  266. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> weird
  267. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> I do in Chrome
  268. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> <!DOCTYPE HTML><html><head><style type="text/css"></style></head><body><ruby><button><rp></rp></button></ruby></body></html>
  269. # [09:31] <hsivonen> ooh. not a horrible bug. just a more clever optimization elsewhere
  270. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> chrome dev-version bug I guess
  271. # [09:31] <hsivonen> I’m so old I forget what code I have written
  272. # [09:32] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: can't reproduce in 24.0.1312.5 dev
  273. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: crazy
  274. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> that's what I'm running too
  275. # [09:32] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: any addons?
  276. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  277. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> several
  278. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> lemme try turning some off
  279. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> ah
  280. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> Adblock
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  284. # [09:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so all in all, I have just the <dd><optgroup><dd> bug to fix from the paywalled paper?
  285. # [09:34] <zcorpan> so adblock advertises its presence to the page
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  288. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yes, just that one bug
  289. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I guess so
  290. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> I just starting using Adblock today
  291. # [09:37] <zcorpan> annevk: how are the pngs created?
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  294. # [09:42] <annevk> http://www.fileformat.info/convert/image/svg2raster.htm with 500x500
  295. # [09:42] <annevk> I guess I should add a README.md for that
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  299. # [09:44] <SimonSapin> annevk: how about using http://cairosvg.org/ ? :)
  300. # [09:44] <annevk> zcorpan: btw, (hope you read the logs), you can omit "," in a path if the next character is a "-"
  301. # [09:45] <annevk> SimonSapin: why download something if I can use the web?
  302. # [09:45] * Quits: hallvors (~hallvord@office.oslo.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  303. # [09:45] <hsivonen> annevk: what do you need the bitmaps for?
  304. # [09:45] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@c-67-180-8-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: sicking)
  305. # [09:45] <SimonSapin> annevk: why depend on a service if you can run stuff locally?
  306. # [09:46] <annevk> hsivonen: twitter
  307. # [09:46] * Quits: hdhoang (~hdhoang@113.190.111.123) (Quit: Leaving.)
  308. # [09:46] <annevk> SimonSapin: because they're easier
  309. # [09:46] <SimonSapin> ok
  310. # [09:46] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.57)
  311. # [09:47] <SimonSapin> whatever works for you :)
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  313. # [09:48] <SimonSapin> MikeSmith: "btw it's possible to plug a different parser into libxml2?" maybe not in libxml2, but in lxml yes. See http://lxml.de/html5parser.html
  314. # [09:48] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  315. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> yeah that I knew
  316. # [09:49] <annevk> zcorpan: see logs
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  318. # [09:49] <zcorpan> yep
  319. # [09:50] <annevk> biab
  320. # [09:50] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: "so polyglot could instead be Guidelines for Spec Writers Using Anolis With Libxml2 Instead Of Html5lib" is that libxml2’s XML parser, not HTML? I know the latter is not quite html5 but is it that bad?
  321. # [09:50] <SimonSapin> (it’s what I use in WeasyPrint)
  322. # [09:50] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: html
  323. # [09:51] <SimonSapin> so how is polyglot relevant?
  324. # [09:51] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: apparently having explicit end tags helps the HTML parser in libxml2
  325. # [09:51] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2012/11/09/In-defence-of-Polyglot
  326. # [09:53] <zcorpan> however i think libxml2 also screws up hex character references (so the non-normative column in the entities table in the spec is wrong)
  327. # [09:53] <zcorpan> but the polyglot spec doesn't discuss any solutions to that problem
  328. # [09:54] <zcorpan> the html5 editors seem to have chosen "use html5lib" as the solution; i'm not sure if they care about it being slow
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  333. # [09:59] <zcorpan> annevk: svg2raster is too slow for me on the train
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  336. # [10:01] <hsivonen> annevk: boo for twitter not accepting SVG avatars
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  340. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> "I'd like to propose as a constructive strategy not to flame/offend everybody right off the bat."
  341. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> too late for that
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  347. # [10:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: context?
  348. # [10:20] * Joins: didymos (~didymos@5.57.48.69)
  349. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2012OctDec/thread.html#msg430
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  351. # [10:23] <hsivonen> ah.
  352. # [10:23] * hsivonen expected something HTML-related
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  358. # [10:34] <annevk> hsivonen: well, SVG is way more complex from a security pov, but yeah, they should fix that
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  360. # [10:38] <annevk> zcorpan: I guess I can do that once I add the javascript logo for matjas
  361. # [10:39] <zcorpan> annevk: ok. thanks. i'm at the office now, but rasterizing the logos one by one from a web form seems boring
  362. # [10:40] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: well, you could use a local, scriptable tool :) … if you like
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  366. # [10:47] <hsivonen> yay. still not resolved: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13392 a bug arising from stating Leif’s preference rather than just the conclusions arising from other specs
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  368. # [10:56] <sangwhan> Noob question, apart from being a effective tormenting agent for browser engineer one has a grudge against, what upsides *do* polyglot bring?
  369. # [10:56] <sangwhan> s/engineer one/engineers one/
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  372. # [10:57] <annevk> zcorpan: just generating logo-dom.png and uploading it to twitter does not seem too bad
  373. # [10:58] <zcorpan> annevk: i changed the background on all logos except encoding
  374. # [10:58] <annevk> if it doesn't affect the twitter icon I don't think I'm going to bother either
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  378. # [11:07] <hsivonen> sangwhan: no real upsides of its own. but there’s overlap between other sets of restrictions that have upsides and the polyglot set of restrictions.
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  381. # [11:08] <hsivonen> sangwhan: for example, if you need explicit end tags to deal with libxml2, then polyglot has that upside
  382. # [11:08] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@84.241.218.114) (Remote host closed the connection)
  383. # [11:08] <hsivonen> but also misses other relevant things and brings along a bunch of irrelevant things
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  386. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> I thought for some people at least the original motivation was that they wanted to use XML toolchains to create their XHTML documents but IE did not handle application/xhtml+xml so they wanted their XHTML documents to work in IE when they served them as text/html
  387. # [11:15] <sangwhan> hsivonen: ok, that sort of makes sense - although that might not be a strong enough argument to convince people en masse
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  390. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about the validator stats, would it be worth adding stats on the input mechanisms -- address vs file upload vs text field?
  391. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> oh an also post with entity body
  392. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> if you think it's worth it I can try adding it
  393. # [11:29] <annevk> zcorpan: you could write your own web service using <canvas> that converts those images :)
  394. # [11:33] <zcorpan> annevk: that does seem less boring
  395. # [11:34] <annevk> I created http://resources.whatwg.org/logo-javascript.svg btw
  396. # [11:34] <annevk> and opened https://github.com/voodootikigod/logo.js/issues/32 for contributing it back to the original project
  397. # [11:34] <annevk> matjas: ^^
  398. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> annevk: you should use http://es5.github.com/js-mascot.svg instead
  399. # [11:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: heh
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  403. # [11:43] <annevk> IETF does session recording a lot better than W3C, funny tha
  404. # [11:43] <annevk> t
  405. # [11:43] <annevk> http://ietf85.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Recorded_Sessions
  406. # [11:43] <annevk> video + audio + minutes
  407. # [11:44] <annevk> with W3C you never know what was said unless you were there
  408. # [11:46] <annevk> jgraham: https://github.com/whatwg/javascript/issues/1
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  424. # [12:16] <annevk> http://html5sec.org/#19 is interesting
  425. # [12:16] <annevk> didn't know supporting other Mac encodings can actually be a security risk
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  442. # [12:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: nope, polyglot does not really help in the “I’ve got an XML serializer but want to support IE8” case
  443. # [12:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: if you have a use for the input stats, I don’t see any reason not to add those
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  445. # [12:50] <hsivonen> hmm. why is Gecko passing zcorpan’s BOMless UTF-16 test...
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  454. # [13:01] <hsivonen> the test doesn’t fail, because it doesn’t get run
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  456. # [13:02] <matjas> logo suggestion for domparsing.spec.whatwg.org: <dom/>
  457. # [13:02] <matjas> and for XHR: “!Ajax”
  458. # [13:04] <hsivonen> anomalous – Ms2ger is not on IRC
  459. # [13:04] <annevk> heh
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  462. # [13:11] <annevk> matjas: preferably non-text in a way that works with ? or a circle
  463. # [13:12] <annevk> hsivonen: he's studying, only online during the evenings and weekends I think
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  470. # [13:24] <zcorpan> hsivonen: bug in the test?
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  472. # [13:27] <zcorpan> annevk: the JS logo seems a bit dull :-/
  473. # [13:28] <annevk> don't let it keep you up
  474. # [13:29] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|errand
  475. # [13:34] <zcorpan> annevk: how about a mashup between the whatwg logo and the dutch ajax logo?
  476. # [13:35] <annevk> zcorpan: for XMLHttpRequest?
  477. # [13:35] <zcorpan> yeah
  478. # [13:35] <annevk> zcorpan: I think that could work
  479. # [13:35] <annevk> kinda obscure and fun
  480. # [13:35] <annevk> zcorpan: make it :)
  481. # [13:39] <zcorpan> copyright might be slightly problematic. not sure we want to rely on "fair use"s
  482. # [13:39] <zcorpan> s/s//
  483. # [13:40] <zcorpan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ajax_Amsterdam.svg
  484. # [13:40] <zcorpan> LimeChat tries to show that url as an inline image and fails
  485. # [13:41] <zcorpan> i guess i can make a new logo resembling it
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  490. # [13:58] <Ms3ger> hsivonen: you called, sir?
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  493. # [13:59] <annevk> zcorpan: I suspect LimeChat of doing file extension sniffing
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  495. # [13:59] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah
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  497. # [14:00] <hsivonen> Ms3ger: it seems the test suite import script doesn’t generate the appropriate ^headers^ files
  498. # [14:01] <hsivonen> for *.bogus.css and *.windows1250.css
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  500. # [14:02] <hsivonen> Ms3ger: should it, or should the HTTP server be changed to recognize .bogus. and .windows1250. ?
  501. # [14:02] <Ms3ger> Ah
  502. # [14:02] <Ms3ger> Mm, how do they work upsteam? htaccess?
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  505. # [14:04] <hsivonen> Ms3ger: .htaccess, I believe
  506. # [14:05] * Ms3ger thinks
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  512. # [14:10] <Ms3ger> hsivonen: could you send me an email? I can probably try to fix it tonight
  513. # [14:10] <hsivonen> Ms3ger: ok
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  515. # [14:12] <Ms3ger> Thanks
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  520. # [14:21] <zcorpan> some images in https://github.com/joyent/node/pull/1580 are bitrotting :-(
  521. # [14:21] <hsivonen> Excercise: Apply Mark Pilgrim’s taxonomy of developers to this case: http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=94369
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  528. # [14:39] <zcorpan> does the whatwg list prune attachments?
  529. # [14:41] <annevk> hsivonen: ah, the old argument of one URL per resource, or one for many
  530. # [14:41] <annevk> zcorpan: dunno, you could test
  531. # [14:42] <annevk> but better to link to resources
  532. # [14:42] <zcorpan> boris claimed he had attached a test case but i don't see it
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  534. # [14:43] <annevk> hsivonen: reading a bit on it seems to be about content negotiation, the thing that trips up anyone everywhere
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  572. # [15:36] <GPHemsley> annevk: I look at the spec locally when I'm editing it.
  573. # [15:36] <jarek> Hi
  574. # [15:36] <jarek> SVG 2 spec says that you can specify fill like this:
  575. # [15:36] <jarek> fill="#MyLightPurple"
  576. # [15:36] <jarek> but how does parser can know whether the fill value is IRI reference or hex color?
  577. # [15:37] <jarek> e.g. if fill="#ffffff"
  578. # [15:37] <GPHemsley> matjas, MikeSmith: Shouldn't bugs be filed in Bugzilla, not on GitHub?
  579. # [15:37] <matjas> GPHemsley: why?
  580. # [15:37] <GPHemsley> matjas: Because that's where the bugs for all the other specs are filed...
  581. # [15:38] <matjas> GPHemsley: but I’m much more comfortable with the GitHub Issues UI
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  586. # [15:45] <annevk5> fwiw, GitHub issues is fine
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  588. # [15:46] <annevk5> maybe we find out it works better and want to use it elsewhere
  589. # [15:47] <annevk5> jarek: no need to wrap it in url()?
  590. # [15:48] <jarek> annevk5: SVG2 spec says "Paint servers are used by including an IRI reference in a ‘fill’ or ‘stroke’ property (i.e. fill="#MyLightPurple")."
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  595. # [15:49] <annevk5> jarek: seems like a bug in the example
  596. # [15:50] <jarek> annevk5: also, on WebKit $element.style.fill always returns IRI references without url(), is this standard behavior?
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  600. # [15:52] <annevk5> also seems bogus, but TabAtkins might know more
  601. # [15:52] <annevk5> connection is kinda flaky :/
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  604. # [15:54] <GPHemsley> annevk5, matjas: Well, one of the downsides is that we're all subscribed to everything by default.
  605. # [15:55] <matjas> GPHemsley: that’s easy to fix, no?
  606. # [15:55] <annevk5> sure, I unsubscribed
  607. # [15:55] <GPHemsley> annevk5, matjas: Bugzilla has much better user/e-mail management in general, IMO
  608. # [15:56] <annevk5> matjas is doing the work and wants to try something else
  609. # [15:56] <matjas> thanks for understanding, annevk5 :)
  610. # [15:56] <annevk5> he does the work and that is all there is to it imo
  611. # [15:56] <matjas> sorry for the inconvenience, GPHemsley
  612. # [15:56] * GPHemsley shrugs
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  614. # [15:58] <GPHemsley> meanwhile, the repo itself isn't being used?
  615. # [15:59] <hsivonen> GPHemsley: should I resend the feedback I wrote on bugzilla to the mailing list?
  616. # [15:59] <GPHemsley> hsivonen: Couldn't hurt
  617. # [15:59] <hsivonen> GPHemsley: ok
  618. # [16:00] <hsivonen> meanwhile: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19925
  619. # [16:01] <GPHemsley> No, Firefox; just because a site forces me to download a file does not mean I have "chosen to open" it.
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  623. # [16:06] <Smylers> matjas: Small correction: in http://mathias.html5.org/specs/javascript/#annex-b the 3rd bullet point (escape) is already covered by the 2nd one (escape and unescape).
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  626. # [16:07] <matjas> Smylers: whoops, fixed
  627. # [16:08] <hsivonen> Importing testharness.js tests is harder than I expected.
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  630. # [16:09] <hsivonen> I’d probably have spent less time manually repurposing zcorpan’s tests as mochitests than I’ve now spent trying to grok the import process. :-(
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  633. # [16:10] <annevk> GPHemsley: Look, we're not trying to reach uniformity in specification development. We are trying to document the web (and sometimes beyond) and people have different approaches to doing so.
  634. # [16:10] <GPHemsley> annevk: So... the non-use of the repo was on purpose?
  635. # [16:10] <annevk> GPHemsley: If we put restrictions on what they can do, they might not do it altogether or we end up where in 2012 we still publish in text/plain ASCII (as a matter of saying)
  636. # [16:11] <annevk> GPHemsley: We lack rules (other than being civil) on purpose. Lacking rules facilitates innovation and people having a chance to do what they came here to do.
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  638. # [16:12] <annevk> GPHemsley: The non-use of the repo is temporary as I understand it. It will be used and http://javascript.spec.whatwg.org/ too within the next few days.
  639. # [16:12] <GPHemsley> OK, that's all I was asking.
  640. # [16:12] * hsivonen wonders if MP3 is the new text/plain. if the IETF uses XMPP instead of IRC in order to eat their own dogfood, shouldn’t they use Opus instead of MP3 to eat their own dogfood, too.
  641. # [16:13] <annevk> GPHemsley: I thought I should elaborate on my earlier "let matjas do as he pleases", sorry if it went a bit too far :)
  642. # [16:13] <hsivonen> at least MP3 does not sound as bad as text/plain looks
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  644. # [16:14] <GPHemsley> hsivonen: Though I did have trouble attempting to listen to it in-browser; haven't investigated why that was, though.
  645. # [16:14] <GPHemsley> annevk: S'ok
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  647. # [16:17] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: :-( why is it hard?
  648. # [16:18] * jgraham hopes this is "because I haven't done it before"
  649. # [16:19] <jgraham> Maybe it could be a web service of some sort?
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  652. # [16:23] <hsivonen> jgraham: because I can’t import failures from the try run
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  654. # [16:23] <hsivonen> jgraham: because the failure setup script doesn’t behave like the README seems to say
  655. # [16:23] <hsivonen> jgraham: or because our build system changed and the log format is now different
  656. # [16:23] <hsivonen> jgraham: because .bogus. is not automagic
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  658. # [16:24] <hsivonen> jgraham: because Ms2ger forgot one Makefile line in his patch that I expected to have that sort of thing covered
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  660. # [16:25] <hsivonen> jgraham: because syncing the tree leads to a "REBUILD ALL THE THINGS" sort of phenomenon
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  665. # [16:30] <jgraham> hsivonen: I am not entirely sure, but it sounds like bugs rather than an intrinsic problem?
  666. # [16:30] <zcorpan_> .bogus. not being automagic, i.e. .htaccess not working for you, seems like something we should resolve in some way. not sure how.
  667. # [16:31] <zcorpan_> the other issues seem less actionable from my and jgraham's perspective
  668. # [16:32] <zcorpan_> .htaccess works for opera, microsoft, w3c. but mozilla and webkit don't use an apache server for testing currently
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  671. # [16:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I didn’t mean to suggest these problems were actionable by you or jgraham
  672. # [16:42] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: yeah i understand that
  673. # [16:43] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: we're interested in improving the situation with tests, so it's good to know what the issues are
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  710. # [17:52] <GPHemsley> Hmm... either Gecko doesn't allow SVG as favicons, or I broke something.
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  715. # [17:58] <GPHemsley> hsivonen: I responded.
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  736. # [18:33] * GPHemsley wonders why html5lib rearranges the attributes on <link>
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  738. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: are the attributes in a dictionary? Python dicts are unordered
  739. # [18:34] <GPHemsley> wait... html5lib alphabetizes the attributes? o_0
  740. # [18:35] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: Nope, they are definitely alphabetized.
  741. # [18:35] <GPHemsley> alt height src width
  742. # [18:35] <GPHemsley> href rel type
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  748. # [18:41] <gsnedders> GPHemsley: html5lib does not guarantee attribute order
  749. # [18:41] <gsnedders> GPHemsley: Any order is purely coincidental.
  750. # [18:41] <GPHemsley> riiiight
  751. # [18:41] <gsnedders> (Different tree-builders give different orders)
  752. # [18:42] <GPHemsley> ah
  753. # [18:42] <gsnedders> (Fundementally we cannot because none of the third-party tree-builders we rely on don't!)
  754. # [18:42] <gsnedders> s/don't/do/
  755. # [18:42] <GPHemsley> I see
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  766. # [18:54] <jsbell> Anyone know why ArrayBuffers are not one of the types enumerated in the structured clone algorithm? http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/common-dom-interfaces.html#safe-passing-of-structured-data
  767. # [18:54] <jsbell> i.e. was there discussion which led to them being excluded, or has the algorithm just not been updated since WebGL landed?
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  770. # [18:55] <gsnedders> "If input is an object that another specification defines how to clone"
  771. # [18:55] <gsnedders> The Typed Array specification defines it.
  772. # [18:56] <GPHemsley> I have to say... SVG syntax is extremely opaque
  773. # [18:56] <jsbell> Ah, yes.
  774. # [18:56] <gsnedders> (It was previously in HTML, I believe)
  775. # [18:56] <jsbell> thx
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  777. # [19:00] <gsnedders> GPHemsley: fantasai was wanted a guaranteed-order for attributes, FWIW. I think insertion order.
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  779. # [19:01] <GPHemsley> gsnedders: if "insertion order" means "the way I typed it", then I concur
  780. # [19:01] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  781. # [19:02] <gsnedders> GPHemsley: document order
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  906. # [22:24] <SimonSapin> lang="en-US-x-Hixie" humm…
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  910. # [22:28] <FireFly> SimonSapin: see http://ian.hixie.ch/bible/english :p
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  925. # [22:44] <bholley> abarth: yt?
  926. # [22:45] <annevk> GPHemsley: I recommend browsers not supporting SVG as favicon as a bug in that browser and not working around it, but up to you
  927. # [22:46] <abarth> bholley: hi
  928. # [22:47] <bholley> abarth: hey, so I've been talking with bz, mrbkap, and jst about the Location stuff
  929. # [22:47] <abarth> ok
  930. # [22:49] <bholley> abarth: the general consensus is that people want to land it, given that we have the patches ready, and given that there's currently no accord among different UAs and the spec
  931. # [22:49] <bholley> abarth: and try to get in touch with MS in parallel to see what their position is
  932. # [22:50] <abarth> bholley: that sounds like a reasonable choice from your perspective
  933. # [22:51] <abarth> I doubt that anyone from MS would object to your making Gecko more like Trident
  934. # [22:51] <bholley> abarth: I don't want to be a jerk about it though :-(
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  936. # [22:51] <bholley> abarth: it's just not clear to me how to resolve the current impasse here
  937. # [22:52] <abarth> bholley: the impasse is only that the different engines are constructed differently, so the engineering tradeoffs are different
  938. # [22:53] <abarth> its good that we have diversity in implementations, but it does lead to situations like this where what's of benefit to one engine is a cost to another
  939. # [22:54] <abarth> I don't think you should feel bad about aligning gecko's behavior with IE and opera
  940. # [22:54] <bholley> abarth: right. And Gecko's in a position to tilt the ship one way or another by throwing its weight a given direction, whereas WebKit isn't
  941. # [22:54] <abarth> my guess is that we won't change WebKit to match here unless there is a compatibility reason to do so
  942. # [22:54] <abarth> the engineering costs are pretty high
  943. # [22:55] <abarth> its possible that as ECMAScript evolves, the costs will get lower
  944. # [22:55] <bholley> abarth: yeah. It doesn't seem like a very high-priority issue
  945. # [22:55] <abarth> e.g., with harmony proxies and such
  946. # [22:55] <bholley> abarth: similar to aligning on document.domain behavior
  947. # [22:55] <bholley> abarth: (per the spec issue I raised a few months ago - similar roots in our different implementations)
  948. # [22:58] <abarth> document.domain I feel more passionate about :)
  949. # [22:58] <abarth> the consequences of changing its behavior are more likely to cause compatibility problems
  950. # [22:58] <abarth> (and I want the API to die in a fire) :)
  951. # [22:58] <bholley> abarth: heh, yeah
  952. # [22:58] <bholley> abarth: While we're talking, do you have any thoughts on the revocation issue?
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  954. # [22:59] <bholley> abarth: per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2012AprJun/0120.html
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  961. # [23:03] <abarth> there's very little chance that we'd implement revocation in WebKit
  962. # [23:03] <abarth> its not actually needed for security
  963. # [23:03] <abarth> and we don't have any mechanism with which to implement it
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  965. # [23:04] <bholley> abarth: do you think it's problematic to be unaligned here?
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  968. # [23:05] <abarth> yes, i'd much prefer user agents to interoperate, especially on security checks
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  970. # [23:06] <bholley> abarth: so the issue is that WebKit has no way to keep track of cross-scope references?
  971. # [23:07] <abarth> WebKit has no wrappers
  972. # [23:07] <abarth> especially not CrossOriginWrappers
  973. # [23:07] <bholley> abarth: they're just raw JS refs?
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  983. # [23:18] <jgraham> Lack of interop. on th ocation object would be sadness
  984. # [23:18] <jgraham> *the location
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  1005. # [23:45] <annevk> jgraham: Opera caused lack of interop on IDNA
  1006. # [23:45] <annevk> jgraham: not sure which is worse
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  1013. # [23:48] <annevk> for those interested in IDNA, http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/idna-update/2012-November/date.html has the "good" stuff
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  1015. # [23:49] <annevk> it's kinda sad IDNA is not a solved problem by now, but it's interesting enough
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  1028. # Session Close: Tue Nov 13 00:00:00 2012

The end :)