/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-11-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 23 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:09] <GPHemsley> They don't seem to detect WOFF, either
  4. # [00:09] <GPHemsley> And Chrome has strange behavior when a file is sent with the WOFF mime type
  5. # [00:09] <GPHemsley> if the file has no file extension, it doesn't add one
  6. # [00:09] <GPHemsley> but if the file has a '.woff' file extension, it adds another one
  7. # [00:10] <GPHemsley> so it tries to get me to download and save the file as signature.woff.woff
  8. # [00:10] <GPHemsley> (versus just signature without it)
  9. # [00:12] <Hixie> i would expect browsers to only try to sniff for fonts in @font-face
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  11. # [00:13] <GPHemsley> hmm
  12. # [00:14] <GPHemsley> TTF seems to be sniffed outside of @font-face, though
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  14. # [00:14] <Hixie> funky
  15. # [00:14] <Hixie> how does that manifest?
  16. # [00:16] <GPHemsley> just as a binary download
  17. # [00:16] <GPHemsley> the others are treated as plaintext
  18. # [00:16] <Hixie> isn't that just detecting non-text?
  19. # [00:16] <GPHemsley> oh, good point
  20. # [00:16] <Hixie> what mime type are you sending it as?
  21. # [00:16] <GPHemsley> I forgot the TTF signature was binary
  22. # [00:17] <Hixie> (the other types aren't? funky!)
  23. # [00:17] <GPHemsley> nope, they're 'ttcf', 'OTTO', and 'wOFF'
  24. # [00:17] <Hixie> with no binary bytes in the first 512?
  25. # [00:17] <GPHemsley> TTF, on the other hand, is the binary representation of '1.0'
  26. # [00:17] <GPHemsley> the test files consist only of the signatures and nothing else
  27. # [00:18] <GPHemsley> (which is surprisingly successful in other areas)
  28. # [00:18] <GPHemsley> the signature for bitmaps, for example, is only 'BM"
  29. # [00:18] <Hixie> aah
  30. # [00:18] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: what binary representation?
  31. # [00:18] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: 00 01 00 00
  32. # [00:18] <GPHemsley> (2 bytes for major, 2 bytes for minor)
  33. # [00:19] <SimonSapin> oh, ok
  34. # [00:19] <GPHemsley> anyway, back to the Thanksgiving festivities...
  35. # [00:21] <zewt> that doesn't sound like a very useful magic, heh
  36. # [00:21] <zewt> not unless you know in advance that you're looking for a font type, at least
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  43. # [01:04] <Hixie> zewt: so long as nobody else did it :-)
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  50. # [01:30] <zewt> Hixie: but a raw binary file containing an array of floats that happens to begin with 1.0 would match, heh
  51. # [01:30] <zewt> (eg. a list of vertices or whatever)
  52. # [01:32] <benschwarz> Hixie, did you get my note about renaming the dev spec?
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  54. # [01:35] <annevk> Hixie: if you have a better idea for https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18780 it is welcome
  55. # [01:35] <annevk> Hixie: but given your comment, you would be okay with me drafting that and seeing where it will take you?
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  59. # [01:51] <Hixie> benschwarz: i'm not aware of anything from you that i haven't replied to
  60. # [01:51] <Hixie> benschwarz: so either yes and i replied, or no :-)
  61. # [01:52] <benschwarz> lemme see…
  62. # [01:52] <benschwarz> https://github.com/benschwarz/developers.whatwg.org/issues/69
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  64. # [01:53] <benschwarz> @ Hixie
  65. # [01:54] <Hixie> didn't i do that already?
  66. # [01:54] <Hixie> i thought i did that a while back
  67. # [01:56] <benschwarz> maybbee you did
  68. # [01:56] <benschwarz> oh.
  69. # [01:56] <benschwarz> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/dev-index look at that
  70. # [01:56] <Hixie> heh
  71. # [01:56] <Hixie> i think you asked me on irc and i did it then
  72. # [01:56] <benschwarz> right
  73. # [01:56] <Hixie> i don't think i'd seen the github issue
  74. # [01:57] <benschwarz> well. that was good
  75. # [01:57] <benschwarz> I'll rebuild / deploy then :)
  76. # [02:04] <benschwarz> Hixie: deployed :)
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  86. # [03:04] <erlehmann> how would i put a link in a webvtt file?
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  89. # [03:09] <erlehmann> hey rillian
  90. # [03:10] <erlehmann> how can i make annotated links in WebVTT?
  91. # [03:11] <erlehmann> i have this http://warumnicht.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/wn-15.html
  92. # [03:11] <erlehmann> and want to make it more accessible
  93. # [03:13] <erlehmann> maybe the whatwg is the wrong channel :/
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  97. # [03:27] <erlehmann> today i thought about targeting media elements with links
  98. # [03:27] <erlehmann> <a href="testfile.oga#t=20" target=audio>test</a><audio id=audio>this will be changed</audio>
  99. # [03:29] <erlehmann> <audio nam=audio> would it have to be
  100. # [03:29] <erlehmann> name
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  123. # [05:27] <erlehmann> html5 table parsing annoys me
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  139. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> Hixie: you got a typo in the "Unstyled XML documents" change
  140. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> http://html5.org/r/7525
  141. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> "and thes a user agent following these requirements"
  142. # [07:11] <Hixie> thanks
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  178. # [09:37] <zcorpan> erlehmann: if you read logs, webvtt doesn't support links, but you can use metadata kind and have custom captions. also <audio> doesn't have a name attribute, nor is it a browsing context so target="" doesn't work like that
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  181. # [09:39] <zcorpan> you can have a script that changes src="" though. i guess you could use target that targets an iframe as no-script fallback, if you care
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  227. # [10:59] <annevk> GPHemsley: font sniffing only happens in font context
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  231. # [11:12] * hsivonen wonders how sfnt support is actually implemented.
  232. # [11:13] <hsivonen> that is, how early does the dispatch to different code paths depending on the type of glyph data occur
  233. # [11:13] <hsivonen> i.e., does the sniffer even need to decide beyond 1) WOFF, 2) raw sfnt, 3) neither (reject)
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  236. # [11:20] <annevk> the data I supplied came from Opera's font guy
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  260. # [12:34] <zcorpan> i wonder if CfC to publish counts as "process discussions" in html wg
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  271. # [13:08] <Stevef> zcorpan: yes and they should soon be posted to an admin mailing list see: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Nov/0079.html
  272. # [13:09] <zcorpan> Stevef: ah, so it's not in effect yet
  273. # [13:10] <Stevef> the CFC for the mailing list thing gas passed, so should happen soon
  274. # [13:10] <Stevef> has passed not gas passed :-)
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  284. # [13:42] <hsivonen> what mechanism causes Chrome to decode the frame on this page as UTF-8? http://ht.hypertech.com.br/doutorja/
  285. # [13:42] <hsivonen> the meta is beyond 1024 bytes
  286. # [13:43] <hsivonen> and WebKit isn't supposed to be doing reloading upon seeing a late meta
  287. # [13:43] <hsivonen> or do they reload these days?
  288. # [13:43] <hsivonen> or have they increased the lookahead from 1024 bytes?
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  294. # [13:57] <annevk> they might have increased it, I saw there was discussion about that
  295. # [13:57] <annevk> no pointer, sorry
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  298. # [14:24] <annevk> fyi http://annevankesteren.nl/2012/11/copyright-response
  299. # [14:25] <annevk> it's nothing new, just trying to be fair
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  309. # [15:06] <annevk> Anyone opposed to me introducing the term "redispatching"?
  310. # [15:07] <annevk> You'll be able to use it to find dom.spec.whatwg.org if you forgot how to type that ;)
  311. # [15:09] <smaug____> AryehGregor: ping
  312. # [15:10] * smaug____ tries to recall if we handle PI in ranges like comment/text on purpose
  313. # [15:10] <smaug____> (in Gecko)
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  315. # [15:14] <annevk> I think the idea was to make PI just another CharacterData thingie
  316. # [15:14] <smaug____> yeah
  317. # [15:14] <smaug____> I can't find the right bug now
  318. # [15:14] <annevk> with some minor exceptions that is already largely the case
  319. # [15:14] <annevk> in most implementations
  320. # [15:14] <smaug____> Didn't help that I was trying to search for Mozilla bug using W3C bugzilla :)
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  323. # [15:17] <annevk> I kinda wish I could just search through W3C/Mozilla/WebKit/radar:/Opera/IE/Chromium all at once
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  327. # [15:17] <annevk> Unfortunately I can only search through some of those, and have to find the correct URL
  328. # [15:18] * JohnAlbin1252178 is now known as JohnAlbin
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  330. # [15:28] <darobin> annevk: I don't know if it's exposed systematically, but bugzilla has an API
  331. # [15:29] <darobin> it should be possible to address at least those collectively
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  333. # [15:32] <annevk> http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dispatching-events is another reason why I favor imperative specifications. So easy to make surgical incisions.
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  335. # [15:33] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|lunch
  336. # [15:34] <darobin> bah, subjunctive specifications FTW!
  337. # [15:34] <odinho> annevk: What is radar:?
  338. # [15:35] <smaug____> odinho: Apple's internal bug tracker
  339. # [15:35] <annevk> odinho: URL scheme used for referring to issues in Apple's internal bug tracker, presumably used for Safari, but potentially much more
  340. # [15:35] <annevk> darobin: learned a new word, yay
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  344. # [15:36] <darobin> it would be fun to write a spec in the subjunctive
  345. # [15:36] <darobin> if this attribute be in error
  346. # [15:37] <darobin> were the document invalid, the user agent would...
  347. # [15:38] <annevk> if I be as high as kite?
  348. # [15:42] <JibberJim> It may well be more readable than your normal specs darobin
  349. # [15:42] <darobin> annevk: you're tall, but not that tall
  350. # [15:42] <darobin> OMG there are ghosts here
  351. # [15:42] <annevk> the real JibberJim?
  352. # [15:42] <darobin> JibberJim: it's worth a shot
  353. # [15:43] <annevk> been a while
  354. # [15:43] <darobin> I wonder if someone has made an automatic subjunctiviser
  355. # [15:43] * Joins: charl_ (~charl@charl.eu)
  356. # [15:43] <JibberJim> I am the real me yes... I've found my way out of baby hood and re-entering my previous worlds.
  357. # [15:43] * Joins: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@host143.186-125-92.telecom.net.ar)
  358. # [15:44] <darobin> so you've stopped being a big baby?
  359. # [15:44] <JibberJim> Something like that yes :)
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  361. # [15:46] <darobin> how's Otter?
  362. # [15:46] <annevk> time to update http://www.jibbering.com/2002/4/httprequest.html ? :-)
  363. # [15:46] <darobin> and how old? like 2 or something by now?
  364. # [15:47] <JibberJim> 18months is all
  365. # [15:47] <JibberJim> What you mean that's not completely up to date and accurate?
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  368. # [15:47] <JibberJim> anyone would think it was 10 years old
  369. # [15:47] <darobin> or http://jibbering.com/nauts/htmlnaut/ :)
  370. # [15:48] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@89.143.12.238)
  371. # [15:48] <darobin> that's some serious DHTML there
  372. # [15:48] <darobin> we so should reintroduce the usage of the word DHTML
  373. # [15:49] <odinho> darobin: It's been sorely missed (?)
  374. # [15:49] * Joins: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.145.84)
  375. # [15:49] <darobin> odinho: I stumbled upon my old copy of the flamingo book last night; the feeling of nostalgia hasn't quite left me
  376. # [15:49] <JibberJim> I'll a book "The stupid persons guide to DHTML5" - that should do it
  377. # [15:50] <odinho> Oh, DTML5. Marketing will jump on it straight away ;D
  378. # [15:51] <darobin> the domain's free
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  380. # [15:54] <annevk> smaug____: seems unlikely we'll get rid of initCustomEvent right?
  381. # [15:54] * JibberJim wonders why he can't find darobin in htmlnaut
  382. # [15:55] <darobin> my foaf file probably went offline at some point in ~2006
  383. # [15:56] <darobin> I'm waiting for the JSON-LD/microdata/RDFa return of FOAF!
  384. # [15:56] <JibberJim> I'm pretty sure I never scuttered since 2003
  385. # [15:56] <JibberJim> For ages I didn't even think I had a cache of the data
  386. # [15:56] <darobin> in that I ought to be there, I used to be
  387. # [15:56] <darobin> *case
  388. # [15:56] <zcorpan> darobin: then how do people/non-people know who you are?
  389. # [15:57] <darobin> zcorpan: they have fond memories from seeing me dance topless?
  390. # [15:57] <JibberJim> You still do that? I may have to leave these circles again
  391. # [15:58] <annevk> darobin: if I'm elected to the TAG, I'll make DHTML top priority
  392. # [15:58] <darobin> YAY annevk FOR TAG!
  393. # [15:59] <darobin> JibberJim: I hadn't done it in a while, but I reinstated it at the last TPAC
  394. # [15:59] <darobin> in fact I think I hadn't done it since Enschede
  395. # [15:59] <odinho> annevk: You have to make buttons like erikjmoller have done for his employee rep campaign in Opera.
  396. # [15:59] <zcorpan> "TAG SUCKS"?
  397. # [15:59] * Parts: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.145.84) ("Linkinus - http://linkinus.com")
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  400. # [16:01] <annevk> a whole lot of http://html5.org/temp/unicorn.svg
  401. # [16:05] <darobin> can you get D66 endorsement or something?
  402. # [16:05] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
  403. # [16:05] <darobin> maybe we can start a W3C Pirate Party
  404. # [16:06] <smaug____> annevk: I think so
  405. # [16:07] <smaug____> (at least I'm not going to try it)
  406. # [16:07] <darobin> annevk: your TAG nomination has cleared, go fill out https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/tagnom-201211/
  407. # [16:11] <annevk> darobin: so the IE agreement is scoped to the group right?
  408. # [16:11] <annevk> darobin: e.g. I might end up being an IE in the TAG, but would not be automatically in say WebApps
  409. # [16:12] <darobin> annevk: yes, I thought of that, you're safe
  410. # [16:12] <annevk> k
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  414. # [16:12] <darobin> W3C pwns all your copyrights for your contributions to the TAG
  415. # [16:12] <darobin> MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
  416. # [16:13] <darobin> I'm *so* evil
  417. # [16:14] <annevk> I realise that, it's unfortunate but acceptable... http://www.w3.org/2004/10/27-tag-charter.html is kinda whacky though.
  418. # [16:14] <annevk> "W3C has adopted an architectural principle that XML should be used for the syntax of Web formats unless there is a truly compelling reason not to"
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  420. # [16:15] <darobin> oh yeah the charter is a whole barrel laughs
  421. # [16:15] <zewt> is that quote from the mid-90s
  422. # [16:16] <zewt> heh
  423. # [16:16] <darobin> zewt: it feels that way, but actually we didn't have XML in the mid90s
  424. # [16:16] <darobin> annevk: it's all a matter of finding "compelling reasons not to"
  425. # [16:17] <zewt> simple, "xml is terrible"
  426. # [16:17] <zewt> i find that pretty compelling
  427. # [16:17] <zewt> i'm not sure i've hit a single legitimate use case for xml since json came around
  428. # [16:19] <hsivonen> I feel I have been baited into 386 on a list I don't normally follow: www-international
  429. # [16:19] <annevk> darobin: submitted
  430. # [16:19] <zewt> math coprocessor y/n
  431. # [16:19] <darobin> annevk: wicked cool
  432. # [16:19] <darobin> now go campaign!
  433. # [16:19] <annevk> hsivonen: my fault I think
  434. # [16:20] <annevk> darobin: when is the final day?
  435. # [16:20] <darobin> www-international — is that for Web Communism?
  436. # [16:20] <darobin> annevk: for nominations? the 30th
  437. # [16:20] <darobin> as things currently stand there are five candidates for four seats, so there'll be an election no matter what
  438. # [16:20] <annevk> darobin: and then elections until end of December?
  439. # [16:20] <darobin> yup
  440. # [16:20] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@23.212-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)
  441. # [16:20] <darobin> I forget when they close
  442. # [16:21] <darobin> maybe early January
  443. # [16:21] <darobin> you should blog about it like slightlyoff did
  444. # [16:21] <darobin> also, send some statement of your platform to www-tag
  445. # [16:21] <darobin> once you guys do that I can start sending some "Questions to the Candidates" there :)
  446. # [16:21] <annevk> will do in December then
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  448. # [16:22] <darobin> good
  449. # [16:22] <zcorpan> hsivonen: which thread?
  450. # [16:23] <zcorpan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2012OctDec/0078.html ?
  451. # [16:26] <zcorpan> is "In Internet Explorer 5.5 a BOM at the start of a file will cause the page to be rendered in quirks mode" true? http://www.w3.org/International/questions/new/qa-byte-order-mark-new
  452. # [16:26] <zcorpan> doesn't IE5.5 only have one mode anyway?
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  454. # [16:27] <zewt> why is a document intended for this "intended audience" talking about IE5.5? heh
  455. # [16:30] <JibberJim> IE 5.5 was very fussy about exactly what it saw to avoid quirks mode - so I suspect the answer is yes
  456. # [16:30] <JibberJim> IE 5.5 is my era! I can still be useful!
  457. # [16:30] <SimonSapin> when is the vote?
  458. # [16:31] <darobin> SimonSapin: soon
  459. # [16:31] <darobin> after the nominations end, it should open pretty quickly
  460. # [16:31] <darobin> so early Dec
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  462. # [16:32] <annevk> smaug____: thanks, guess I'll add a definition for initCustomEvent() then along with some guidelines for specifications defining their own events
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  464. # [16:35] <annevk> SimonSapin: so for data:, what you want to do is to define a parser (see URL/HTML specs for examples of parsers)
  465. # [16:36] <annevk> SimonSapin: the input is "scheme data" + "?" + "query" (currently just "scheme data", but soon "query" will be separate)
  466. # [16:36] <SimonSapin> annevk: how does that parser hook into URL ?
  467. # [16:37] <zcorpan> JibberJim: i thought quirks/standards was introduced in ie *6*
  468. # [16:37] <SimonSapin> apparently the "?" and the query are both part of the "body" of data:,test?test
  469. # [16:37] <annevk> SimonSapin: I haven't entirely thought that through yet. What I think we want is that you have a parsed URL object. And then when you fetch it you do URL processing
  470. # [16:38] <annevk> SimonSapin: URL processing is scheme-specific and would run this parser, to obtain the resource
  471. # [16:39] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/DoctypeSwitching
  472. # [16:39] <SimonSapin> so this parser would first append "?" and the query to the string being parsed
  473. # [16:39] <JibberJim> zcorpan: I thought it had a seperate rendering mode that matched 4 and itself? but predates "quirks" and "standards" for sure?
  474. # [16:40] <zcorpan> JibberJim: [citation needed] :-P
  475. # [16:41] <annevk> SimonSapin: the URL processor takes a URL; if it sees the scheme is data it invokes the data URL processor with schemedata+"?"+query
  476. # [16:41] <annevk> SimonSapin: hmm, maybe not exactly like that, but to obtain the message body you need scheme data and query, yes
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  478. # [16:42] <annevk> SimonSapin: the other thing that is somewhat different from http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2397 is that the default encoding is windows-1252
  479. # [16:42] <SimonSapin> versus ascii
  480. # [16:42] <annevk> yeah
  481. # [16:42] <annevk> and things like data:text/html;,%E2%84%A2 do not fail
  482. # [16:42] <hsivonen> IE 5.5 had only the mode now known as quirks
  483. # [16:43] <annevk> (the specification requires a parameter after ";" which is not how implementations work apparently)
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  487. # [16:43] <annevk> SimonSapin: you may want to coordinate MIME type parsing with GPHemsley though
  488. # [16:44] <annevk> SimonSapin: ideally that's going to be the same parser throughout the whole platform
  489. # [16:44] <annevk> SimonSapin: used for HTTP, data URLs, type attribute values, etc.
  490. # [16:44] * JibberJim 's memory has let him down :(
  491. # [16:44] <SimonSapin> is WHATWG doing HTTP too? :)
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  495. # [16:47] <SimonSapin> annevk: where should this parser live?
  496. # [16:48] <annevk> I rather not do HTTP, but I guess as long as we keep walking into stuff that's undefined or wrongly defined we might as well pick up things...
  497. # [16:48] <annevk> SimonSapin: MIME and a data URL spec?
  498. # [16:49] <SimonSapin> yes
  499. # [16:49] <SimonSapin> where should I send pull requests
  500. # [16:50] * gnarf_ is now known as gnarf
  501. # [16:50] <annevk> I guess MIME type parsing in MIME (sniffing) and data URLs in their own spec or maybe in URL at some point. For now I'd just sketch it out somewhere, maybe the wiki or your own site
  502. # [16:50] <SimonSapin> is there a preprocessor for doing eg. cross-references?
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  505. # [16:52] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/GitHub http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Anolis
  506. # [16:54] <SimonSapin> oh, anolis too is using cssselect
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  514. # [17:10] <annevk> heh, Chrome starts downloading if you enter data:x,
  515. # [17:10] <annevk> oh Opera too
  516. # [17:11] <SimonSapin> annevk: do they do that for any unknown mime type?
  517. # [17:11] <annevk> yeah, though Firefox fails to parse that as a MIME type...
  518. # [17:11] <SimonSapin> … and assumes text/plain
  519. # [17:12] <annevk> oh yeah, didn't notice that
  520. # [17:12] <annevk> browsers suck
  521. # [17:12] <annevk> I doubt much of that matters though
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  526. # [17:17] <SimonSapin> annevk: MIME Sniffing is not about parsing MIME, is it?
  527. # [17:17] <annevk> just realised data URLs have a pretty high overhead, they're processed 2 times, and when found in HTML 3 times
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  531. # [17:18] <annevk> SimonSapin: I think it should be in the end, then we'd just call it MIME
  532. # [17:18] <SimonSapin> annevk: I weasyprint I special-case value.startswith('data:') to skip some of the processing
  533. # [17:18] <annevk> SimonSapin: not sure how others feel about that
  534. # [17:18] <annevk> SimonSapin: case-insensitive match I hope?
  535. # [17:18] <SimonSapin> hum… :)
  536. # [17:19] <SimonSapin> nope
  537. # [17:19] <SimonSapin> should fix that
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  540. # [17:20] <SimonSapin> annevk: what kind of case-insensitivity? :p
  541. # [17:20] <annevk> yeah, I guess you want optimised paths for data: in implementations
  542. # [17:20] <annevk> SimonSapin: heh, URL schemes can only be ASCII
  543. # [17:21] <SimonSapin> (kidding)
  544. # [17:21] <annevk> [dD][aA][tT][dD][:]
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  546. # [17:22] <darobin> do we know who made Opera's submitted tests for <track>? http://w3c-test.org/html/tests/submission/Opera/media/interfaces/TextTrack/activeCues.html
  547. # [17:22] <darobin> I ask 'cause there's a bug being filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20064
  548. # [17:23] <annevk> prolly zcorpan
  549. # [17:24] <darobin> canPlayType() isn't exactly great for boolean tests :)
  550. # [17:25] <SimonSapin> I subscribed to whatwg@whatwg.org ~30min ago but did not get the confirmation email
  551. # [17:26] <JibberJim> Can I moan about the name of an API that uses CAN but doesn't return a Boolean
  552. # [17:27] * Joins: shepazu (~shepazu@c-76-97-75-131.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
  553. # [17:27] * lilmonkey` is now known as lilmonkey
  554. # [17:27] * JibberJim waits for someone to say "Probably" or "Maybe" in response to that request...
  555. # [17:27] <darobin> JibberJim.canIMoan("API") // "probably, maybe"
  556. # [17:29] <darobin> I still think that this should have been "possibly", "maybe"; it has a song to it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE11_5Spq1I
  557. # [17:29] <annevk> SimonSapin: hmm, check spam maybe? otherwise you need to ask Hixie for help
  558. # [17:30] <annevk> JibberJim: you might have to get in line
  559. # [17:30] <SimonSapin> annevk: nothing in my mta’s logs
  560. # [17:31] <annevk> SimonSapin: meh, maybe try again? I don't really know how long it's supposed to take. I believe instant. Otherwise email Hixie
  561. # [17:31] <SimonSapin> "Depending on the configuration of this mailing list, your subscription request may have to be first confirmed by you via email, or approved by the list moderator."
  562. # [17:32] <SimonSapin> does it need confirmation?
  563. # [17:32] <annevk> maybe not, but http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org states "Subscribe to whatwg by filling out the following form. You will be sent email requesting confirmation, to prevent others from gratuitously subscribing you."
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  566. # [17:34] <annevk> at some point we should organise this a bit less centrally so people besides Hixie can help out
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  568. # [17:37] <GPHemsley> annevk, SimonSapin: Is parsing a mime type really all that complex? (I mean, I understand reality doesn't match the HTTP spec.) It's just the notion of ignoring spaces and trailing semicolons, right?
  569. # [17:39] <annevk> GPHemsley: it's pretty basic
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  571. # [17:39] <annevk> GPHemsley: you might also want to change it from a byte parser to a code point parser as especially when used in markup languages the input is going to be code points
  572. # [17:40] <annevk> (or code units)
  573. # [17:40] <GPHemsley> annevk: Are we still talking about the mime type parser?
  574. # [17:40] <annevk> uhuh
  575. # [17:41] <GPHemsley> I was actually just going to suggest a regex
  576. # [17:41] <GPHemsley> Is that not a good idea?
  577. # [17:41] <zewt> ew
  578. # [17:41] <GPHemsley> oh
  579. # [17:41] <GPHemsley> :)
  580. # [17:41] <zewt> then you have to normatively depend on the definition of regexes, which is orders of magnitude more complicated :)
  581. # [17:41] <GPHemsley> ah, fair point
  582. # [17:41] <annevk> regexp and BNF are equivalent in problems
  583. # [17:42] <darobin> zewt: bah, just do what XML Schema did and reference "Perl"
  584. # [17:42] <GPHemsley> annevk: BNF isn't simpler than regexp?
  585. # [17:42] <annevk> oh yeah, lets use XML Schema :)
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  587. # [17:42] <annevk> GPHemsley: it's different, mostly
  588. # [17:43] <GPHemsley> So I should just spell out the parsing step by step?
  589. # [17:43] <darobin> <xs:simpleType name='mediaType'><xs:restriction base='xs:string'><xs:pattern value='\w+\/\w+'/></xs:restriction></xs:simpleType>
  590. # [17:43] <darobin> there! spec done
  591. # [17:44] <darobin> that wasn't so hard was it?
  592. # [17:44] <annevk> GPHemsley: yeah
  593. # [17:44] <darobin> you bunch of whiny losers
  594. # [17:44] <annevk> darobin: you can put that in your W3C copy :p
  595. # [17:44] <GPHemsley> darobin: But that doesn't handle parameters ;)
  596. # [17:45] <darobin> annevk: ooooh, and we'll *finally* get XML Schema in browsers!
  597. # [17:45] <annevk> darobin: i know right
  598. # [17:45] <darobin> we've been waiting so long
  599. # [17:45] <darobin> GPHemsley: bah
  600. # [17:45] <darobin> <xs:simpleType name='mediaType'><xs:restriction base='xs:string'><xs:pattern value='\w+\/\w+(;.*)?'/></xs:restriction></xs:simpleType>
  601. # [17:46] <GPHemsley> Well, OK... but you'll want to actually parse the parameter name and value...
  602. # [17:46] <darobin> you want to parse stuff with XML Schema? Srsly?
  603. # [17:47] <darobin> annevk: I wonder if we should use http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/#key-null as an example for <dfn>
  604. # [17:47] <GPHemsley> (\w+)\/(\w+)(?:;\s*(?:(\w+)\s*(?:=\s*(\w*))?)?)*
  605. # [17:47] <GPHemsley> oh, actually, that's no good
  606. # [17:47] <zewt> :|
  607. # [17:47] <GPHemsley> (\w+)\/(\w+)(?:;\s*(?:(\w+)\s*(?:=\s*(.*))?)?)*
  608. # [17:47] <zewt> <zewt> ew
  609. # [17:47] <GPHemsley> yeah
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  611. # [17:48] <GPHemsley> but that's roughly how I plan to do it
  612. # [17:48] <zewt> also handling errors with anything but "fail completely" is hard
  613. # [17:48] <darobin> GPHemsley: note that \w doesn't cut it
  614. # [17:48] <GPHemsley> darobin: I blame you
  615. # [17:48] <darobin> I don't know if they can start with anything other than [a-z], but they can certainly contain . and +
  616. # [17:49] <GPHemsley> this was a first approximation :)
  617. # [17:49] <darobin> GPHemsley: dude, if you take my XML Schema jokes and put them in your code, really, *really* don't come complaining when things don't work later
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  620. # [17:49] <GPHemsley> in my original draft of the regex, I had . everywhere
  621. # [17:50] <GPHemsley> but just for that, I'm going to include it
  622. # [17:50] <GPHemsley> but only for you
  623. # [17:51] <GPHemsley> "If user agent is darobin, parse the Content-Type header according to the following XML Schema:"
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  625. # [17:54] <darobin> haha
  626. # [17:54] <darobin> I reckon that's still a bit too simple
  627. # [17:54] <darobin> for one, it involves none of SOAP, WSDL, or ASN.1
  628. # [17:55] <annevk> needs more WS-*
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  637. # [18:28] <annevk> well look at that
  638. # [18:28] <annevk> back in the day
  639. # [18:28] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/Protocols/HTTP/AsImplemented.html timbl published in the public domain
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  642. # [18:29] <annevk> ooh http://www.w3.org/Policy.html
  643. # [18:29] <annevk> "The definition of protocols such as HTTP and data formats such as HTML are in the public domain and may be freely used by anyone."
  644. # [18:29] <annevk> sad that got fucked along the way
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  646. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> Robert Cailliau claims that he could take credit for that, fwiw
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  651. # [18:41] <annevk> HTTP 0.9 is quite nice btw
  652. # [18:42] <annevk> you don't even tell the server it's about HTTP
  653. # [18:42] <annevk> just "GET /gimme"
  654. # [18:42] <annevk> don't even need a CRLF there
  655. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> <annevk> [dD][aA][tT][dD][:]
  656. # [18:42] <annevk> oops
  657. # [18:42] * Ms2ger hadn't heard of the datd: url scheme
  658. # [18:44] <SimonSapin> and now decades of implementations reverse-engineering each other and adding support for datd:
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  661. # [18:46] <annevk> nah, maybe for about:unicorn
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  695. # [19:56] <GPHemsley> It's a real shame that nested comments aren't supported in HTML (or any commonly used programming language)
  696. # [19:59] <zewt> tricky with typical tokenization methods, iirc
  697. # [19:59] <GPHemsley> yeah... but it's still a shame
  698. # [19:59] <GPHemsley> Ocaml has it, though
  699. # [19:59] <GPHemsley> (which actually turned out to be somewhat problematic when I attempted to create a syntax highlighter for it, given the aforementioned issue)
  700. # [20:00] <zewt> vim gets upset with languages that have poor random access
  701. # [20:00] <zewt> (though you can increase the search distance, which isn't as big a deal today as it was 15 years ago)
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  704. # [20:02] <GPHemsley> I was writing it for TextWrangler which, IIRC, used regex
  705. # [20:03] <GPHemsley> Of course, on top of the lack of support for nested comments in HTML is the prohibition on '--' within the comment
  706. # [20:04] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f733d5a.pool.mediaWays.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  707. # [20:07] <annevk> yeah, silly SGML legacy
  708. # [20:10] <zewt> don't know what the basis for the "--" thing is, since it parses fine and i'm sure is everywhere
  709. # [20:10] <zewt> i use dashes not infrequently in english text, so i've probably done it plenty of times myself, heh
  710. # [20:14] <GPHemsley> so... there are two types of TTF fonts
  711. # [20:14] <GPHemsley> one is an OpenType package, and the other isn't
  712. # [20:14] <GPHemsley> I think
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  714. # [20:22] <GPHemsley> So, if fonts are not sniffed by the browser in the regular browsing context, then likely the only usecase for font sniffing is CSS Fonts, and that would be done specifically.
  715. # [20:22] <GPHemsley> Thus, the needs of CSS Fonts are what governs the list of fonts.
  716. # [20:22] <GPHemsley> (Just thinking out loud.)
  717. # [20:24] <GPHemsley> It's really sad that the first result for something like "css3-fonts" is w3schools instead of the spec itself
  718. # [20:25] * Joins: jsoncorwin (~textual@pool-100-2-233-63.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
  719. # [20:29] <GPHemsley> ...and according to css3-fonts, in addition to EOT, I should also somehow accommodate SVG fonts
  720. # [20:29] <GPHemsley> hmm
  721. # [20:30] <zewt> w3schools was one of the first sites i blocked when google's site blocking turned up, heh
  722. # [20:30] <GPHemsley> zewt: Oh, where can I find this setting?
  723. # [20:30] <zewt> dunno, it's magic
  724. # [20:31] <zewt> sometimes it shows up if you view a site then return to the search results, often it just won't show up at all
  725. # [20:31] <GPHemsley> ah, found it
  726. # [20:31] <GPHemsley> just perform a search and click on the gear
  727. # [20:31] <zewt> which is annoying when you hit one of those results where you click the link and it shows a popover "pay us money to see all of the answers!" and you go back and google won't let you block them
  728. # [20:31] <GPHemsley> and navigate your way through
  729. # [20:33] <GPHemsley> Gear > Search settings > Blocking unwanted results > Block unwanted sites
  730. # [20:33] * GPHemsley wonders who else he wants to block
  731. # [20:34] <GPHemsley> scumbag css3-fonts says "see Appendix A" but doesn't provide a link to it
  732. # [20:35] <GPHemsley> I mean, come on! You want me to scroll to it *manually*?!
  733. # [20:35] <zewt> first-world problem go
  734. # [20:36] <zewt> start a new youtube series, angry web spec nerd
  735. # [20:37] <GPHemsley> heh
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  737. # [20:38] <GPHemsley> Why hasn't the CSS/Style working group set up an interface to filter mailing list messages by their spec tags?
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  741. # [20:42] <hober> GPHemsley: that's what your mail client does
  742. # [20:42] <hober> GPHemsley: we also have a gmail account that has the entire history of www-style for easier searching
  743. # [20:42] <hober> GPHemsley: details are on w3c-css-wg
  744. # [20:48] <GPHemsley> hober: I'm not subscribed to the list; I'm just talking about a web interface for searching the archive.
  745. # [20:49] <GPHemsley> because otherwise, if I use the regular search, it will attempt to weight results based on relevance
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  747. # [20:50] <GPHemsley> when all I want is the existing archive format, but with a filter to only show the messages related to a particular spec
  748. # [20:50] <hober> yeah, that's a general problem with the w3c mailing list archive ui
  749. # [20:50] <GPHemsley> (where existing = sort by thread, subject, author, date, etc.)
  750. # [20:50] <hober> same problem with, say, public-webapps
  751. # [20:51] * Ms2ger decides against replying to weird Glenn
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  754. # [20:51] <GPHemsley> hober: It's probably a problem with mailman itself, no?
  755. # [20:52] <GPHemsley> for some definitions of "problem"
  756. # [20:55] * Quits: dydx (~dydz@50-0-90-96.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: dydx)
  757. # [20:56] * GPHemsley files a feature request against Mailman
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  760. # [21:11] <GPHemsley> https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1082495
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  762. # [21:17] <GPHemsley> gee, I sure hope the W3C actually uses Mailman
  763. # [21:20] <Ms2ger> Hypermail?
  764. # [21:21] <GPHemsley> I have no idea
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  766. # [21:21] <GPHemsley> but I just used the www-style mailing list in my examples in that Mailman bug
  767. # [21:21] <GPHemsley> shoot, you're right
  768. # [21:21] <GPHemsley> argh
  769. # [21:22] <GPHemsley> oh, hmm
  770. # [21:22] <GPHemsley> " Hypermail is a free (GPL) program to convert email from Unix mbox format to html. "
  771. # [21:22] * GPHemsley is suddenly realizing he knows very little about how mailing lists and mailing list archives work
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  776. # [21:33] <GPHemsley> "NOTE: The Apple specification for TrueType fonts allows for 'true' and 'typ1' for sfnt version. These version tags should not be used for fonts which contain OpenType tables."
  777. # [21:33] <GPHemsley> Mozilla does have code that mentions those, but it's not clear to me how far they go to support them.
  778. # [21:33] <GPHemsley> I feel like they should probably be included, though.
  779. # [21:34] <GPHemsley> (They are what differentiate a TrueType font from an OpenType font with TrueType outlines, IIUC.)
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  826. # [23:01] <Hixie> anyone know off-hand who implements script crossorigin?
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  828. # [23:01] <Hixie> aha, webkit and gecko, according to bz
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  839. # [23:32] <Hixie> there's really no way to do the "inner shadow" effect here using canvas, huh http://i.imgur.com/Sy4xM.png
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  842. # [23:34] <zewt> not that i've ever thought of
  843. # [23:34] <zewt> not sure what photoshop's algorithm is
  844. # [23:35] <SimonSapin> re subscribing to whatwg@whatwg.org: the confirmation message took a few hours, but eventually arrived
  845. # [23:35] <Hixie> SimonSapin: excellent
  846. # [23:35] <Hixie> zewt: presumably, draw shadow on top and clip to shape
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  848. # [23:39] <zewt> well that's how real inner shadow is, i think, but isn't that inner glow rather than inner shadow
  849. # [23:41] <zewt> yeah it is
  850. # [23:41] <zewt> not a shadow at all
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  852. # [23:44] <Hixie> what's the difference?
  853. # [23:45] <zewt> https://zewt.org/~glenn/shadow.png FWIW these are the photoshop effects by name, which is probably the most common way people know them
  854. # [23:45] <zewt> outer shadow just takes the image, blurs it by some amount, then offsets it by some amount; trivial to do
  855. # [23:46] <Hixie> what's the difference between shadow and glow other than the offset and blur radius?
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  857. # [23:47] <zewt> hmm, i'm not quite sure, to be honest
  858. # [23:47] <zewt> most of the time i'm using them i'm just fiddling with knobs in photoshop and i haven't tried reverse engineering their effects
  859. # [23:48] <zewt> outer shadow does look similar to outer glow if i set distance (the offset) to 0 and increase the spread (blur amount) by a lot
  860. # [23:49] <gsnedders> The difference is to do with light bleeding.
  861. # [23:49] <Hixie> i don't know how to interpret those words in this context
  862. # [23:50] <gsnedders> The light blurs over the darker part, not the other way around.
  863. # [23:50] <gsnedders> Typically approximated using a Gaussian blur
  864. # [23:51] <Hixie> what light
  865. # [23:51] <Hixie> i'm very confused
  866. # [23:51] <gsnedders> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glow_(shader_effect)
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  868. # [23:54] <zewt> pretty sure ps glow and shadow are only based on the opacity, not brightness
  869. # [23:54] <gsnedders> Dunno, I tend not to use such things myself. :)
  870. # [23:54] <zewt> (what gets blurred over what being the blend mode, which is orthogonal)
  871. # [23:57] <SimonSapin> I don’t know about canvas, but CSS has inner box-shadow
  872. # [23:58] <SimonSapin> it’s described as a gaussian blur
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  874. # [23:59] <zewt> i guess the basic math is to invert the opacity, so you get a layer that's opaque where the original image is transparent; blur that layer by some amount; then blit the result onto the image, clipped by the original image's opacity
  875. # Session Close: Sat Nov 24 00:00:00 2012

The end :)